Sep 9th 2008, 03:33 AM
I was thumbing through the Bible a couple days ago, and ran across this:
Luke 23:26 As they led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27 A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' 30 Then
" 'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!"
and to the hills, "Cover us!" ' 31 For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" 32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed.
I did NOT expect to see that part in bold located where it was. This is something I would expect to see in Matthew 24, but--not here. Jesus was just whipped unconscious, on His way to be crucified, Simon was drafted to help carry the cross.... Then Jesus, concerned more for others than Himself even in the midst of all this, prophesies this. This is not exactly the time you "speak in parables". Jesus was obviously gravely concerned for THEM--the actual women mourning for Him. And it's a warning that should have been taken VERY seriously.
The parallelism with Matthew 24 et al. (in the Synoptic Gospels) I find striking. It is also a matter of perspective: how much do we over-intellectualize end-times theories, over something that was tantamount to Jesus' dying wish?
Sep 9th 2008, 08:53 AM
He foresaw what would happen to them in AD 70.
"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Sep 9th 2008, 12:21 PM
Then they will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" and to the hills, "Fall on us!"
They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
Sep 9th 2008, 03:44 PM
He foresaw what would happen to them in AD 70.
Precisely. The fact that Jesus said this literally on His way to the Cross suggests that these apply to AD 70. Although I suppose it's still possible that it doesn't apply _only_ to AD 70, due to the sheer weight of this. When someone says something literally on their way to die, you take it VERY seriously.
Sep 9th 2008, 04:14 PM
When Christ died on the cross he looked down through history - being fully God- and he saw every single person and all of our sins. Why in the world would he NOT be able to think beyond 70AD at that time?
Sep 9th 2008, 05:34 PM
I have heard the "Why can't God do _____" argument for several different things. It's all a matter of context. When you just got whipped unconscious, collapsing under the weight of a cross, on your way to get yourself executed--that is not exactly the time you speak in mysterious, heavy parables. Jesus was speaking to THEM. Filled with compassion for the women weeping for Him, He was warning THEM. He would have been playing mind-games with them, big-time, not to.
Sep 9th 2008, 06:20 PM
Why in the world would he NOT be able to think beyond 70AD at that time?No one said He was unable to do so... just that He likely didn't do so, based on the circumstances.
Sep 9th 2008, 06:37 PM
Speaking of prophecy and the cross…
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"-which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Mat 27:46
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
Sep 9th 2008, 10:10 PM
No one said He was unable to do so... just that He likely didn't do so, based on the circumstances.
That just does not make sense in light of who we are talking about. Jesus was not Superman, whose powers get weaker near kryptonite... Jesus was and is FULLY God. While his body was severely beaten, bloody, bruised and broken..so much that he could not carry his own cross.. he was still God. His Godness did not diminish one iota. To say he could *only* see 40 years into the future at that moment diminishes who He is. He was able to see 2000 years into the future, and DID.
Sep 9th 2008, 11:36 PM
To say he could *only* see 40 years into the future at that moment diminishes who He is. He was able to see 2000 years into the future...Did you not even read what I said?
I said no one else here stated that He was unable.
You keep saying "He was able" or "He could ". No one is disputing Jesus' ability to. Know what you're arguing against.
People were saying that given the [I]context and circumstances and the manner in which He spoke, that He likely didn't make a prophecy about a distantly future generation, not that He couldn't. Understand the difference, because you're making an argument against something no one even mentioned.
... and DID.This is what people were discussing.
Not whether He could, but whether He did.
Sep 9th 2008, 11:45 PM
Jesus was not Superman, whose powers get weaker near kryptonite... Jesus was and is FULLY God. While his body was severely beaten, bloody, bruised and broken..so much that he could not carry his own cross.. he was still God.
At the risk of hijacking my own thread, actually I think Jesus may HAVE been near "kryptonite" at the moment. God had forsaken Him. Part of being the sacrificial lamb is that God turned His back on Jesus while He was being crucified. This is all a separate theological issue, though.