I would like to introduce myself...I'm Michael

I just found this site about 2 weeks ago and have been browsing and decided to register here...(heck of a 1st post huh?);)

I just want to come out and say that I'm a believer in Jesus Christ and know he is the only way to heaven!(There is no other way)I'm 35 and started out in church when I was very young...Well,I save my into and bio for another thread...

I just want to say that I agree with
Literalist-Luke (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=26544) http://bibleforums.org/images/statusicon/user_online.gif as well as others here on this forum...About believing the Antichrist being of Islamic origin...(which is why I have my eye on Obama very eagle-like,but that's for another thread and topic as well)

But I have a theory, I would like some to question and debate with me as well...It's about the Mystery "Babylon" found in Revelation 17 and 18...

Many believe it will be a city in the Middle East(Nice pics of the thread of "Babylon under construction" with the tower of Dubai by the way)VERY,very possible there Luke..!Didn't do much research into that like I should have...:B

I had always wondered why the United States wasn't mentioned in the bible,when the events and prophesies are very well being fullfilled as we speak!

So why would I even think about claiming that the Harlot that sits on many waters,would be the ole' statue of Liberty?Well..we need to get a little research of her...(using wikipedia here)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty (I recommend you guys to read this all)

INTRO


Liberty Enlightening the World (French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language): La liberté éclairant le monde), commonly known as the Statue of Liberty (French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language): Statue de la Liberté), was presented to the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) by the people of France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) in 1886. Standing on Liberty Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Island) in New York Harbor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Harbor), it welcomes visitors, immigrants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States), and returning Americans.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#cite_note-4) The copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper#Architecture)-clad statue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue), dedicated on October 28 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_28), 1886 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1886), commemorates the centennial of the signing of the United States Declaration of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence) and is a gesture of friendship from France to the United States.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#cite_note-National_Park_Service-5) Frédéric Auguste Bartholdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Bartholdi) sculpted the statue[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#cite_note-6) and obtained a U.S. patent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_patent_law) for its structure.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#cite_note-7) Alexandre Gustave Eiffel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Eiffel) (designer of the Eiffel Tower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiffel_Tower)) engineered the internal structure. Eugène Viollet-le-Duc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Viollet-le-Duc) was responsible for the choice of copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper) in the statue's construction and adoption of the repoussé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing) technique, where a malleable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleability) metal is hammered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammered) on the reverse side.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#cite_note-8)
The statue is of a robed woman holding a torch, and is made of a sheeting of pure copper, hung on a framework of steel (originally puddled iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puddle_iron)) with the exception of the flame of the torch, which is coated in gold leaf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_leaf#Gold_Leaf) (originally made of copper and later altered to hold glass panes.) It stands atop a rectangular stonework pedestal with a foundation in the shape of an irregular eleven-pointed star.(Doesn't the 11 pointed star represent a beast that Liberty apparently sits/stands on) The statue is 151 ft (46 m) tall, but with the pedestal and foundation, it is 305 ft (93 m) tall.
Worldwide, the Statue of Liberty is one of the most recognizable icons of the United States[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#cite_note-9) and was, from 1886 until the jet age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_age), often one of the first glimpses of the United States for millions of immigrants after ocean voyages from Europe. Visually, the Statue of Liberty appears to draw inspiration from il Sancarlone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Borromeo#Legacy) or the Colossus of Rhodes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_of_Rhodes).
The statue is a central part of Statue of Liberty National Monument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._National_Monument), administered by the National Park Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Park_Service).





Symbolism


The classical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity) appearance (Roman stola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stola), sandals, facial expression) derives from Libertas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas), ancient Rome's goddess of freedom from slavery, oppression, and tyranny. Her raised right foot is on the move. This symbol of Liberty and Freedom is not standing still or at attention in the harbor, it is moving forward, as her left foot tramples broken shackles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetters) at her feet, in symbolism of the United States' wish to be free from oppression and tyranny.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#cite_note-10) The seven spikes on the crown represent the Seven Seas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Seas) and seven continents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent).(Could this represent the seven heads in Rev.17 ch.3?) [12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#cite_note-11) Her torch signifies enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_(concept)).(Looks alot like a cup to me...in Rev.Ch.4)The tablet in her hand represents knowledge and shows the date of the United States Declaration of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence), July 4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_4), 1776 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1776).
The general appearance of the statue’s head approximates the Greek Sun-god Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo) or Helios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios) as preserved on an ancient marble tablet (today in the Archaeological Museum of Corinth, Corinth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinth), Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)) - Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo) was represented as a solar deity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_deity), dressed in a similar robe and having on its head a "radiate crown" with the seven spiked rays of the Helios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios)-Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo)'s sun rays, like the Statue's nimbus or halo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_(religious_iconography)). The ancient Colossus of Rhodes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_of_Rhodes), one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Wonders_of_the_Ancient_World), was a statue of Helios with a radiate crown. The Colossus is referred to in the 1883 sonnet The New Colossus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus) by Emma Lazarus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lazarus). Lazarus' poem was later engraved on a bronze plaque and mounted inside the Statue of Liberty in 1903.
The statue, also known affectionately as "Lady Liberty", has become a symbol of freedom and democracy. She welcomed arriving immigrants, who could see the statue as they arrived in the United States. There is a version of the statue in France given by the United States in return.



Inspiration for the face
Unsubstantiated sources cite different models for the face of the statue. One indicated the then-recently widowed Isabella Eugenie Boyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_Eugenie_Boyer), the wife of Isaac Singer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Singer),( the sewing-machine industrialist. "She was rid of the uncouth presence of her husband, who had left her with only his most socially desirable attributes: his fortune and -- his children. She was, from the beginning of her career in Paris, a well-known figure. As the good-looking French widow of an American industrialist she was called upon to be Bartholdi's model for the Statue of Liberty.(Now check out Rev.18 Ch.7 and read that)"[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#cite_note-22) Another source believed that the "stern face" belonged to Bartholdi's mother, Charlotte Bartholdi (1801–1891), with whom he was very close.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#cite_note-23) National Geographic magazine also pointed to his mother, noting that Bartholdi never denied nor explained the resemblance.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty#cite_note-24)



#1)7 heads (or spikes) would have to represent 7 mountains...(could it be the 7 seas or or continents that's listed above?)

#2)If the 11-pointed star is the beast then the Harlot would be in fact riding the beast above...maybe?

#3)Isn't it odd,that the french widow used to model as the "Statue of Liberty(Possible Harlot) is possible referenced in Revelation 18 Chapter 7 saying"I sit as a Queen and I am not a widow and will never see mourning"?

Here is a site,that goes into this theory more specifically! http://www.apocalypsesoon.org/xfile-6.html It talks of what I have here and what Luke has talked about as well...(all on the same page)VERY interesting...)~!

So I ask you guys and girls...Could the Harlot possibly be the "Statue of Liberty"?...And if so,does that make us "Mystery Babylon"?


I look forward to good talks with everyone here...thank you!Praise the Lord!:pray:

I think a lot of us read Revelation 18 and the first thing that popped into our head was, "the U.S.". I know I did. I don't believe it anymore, though.

aceinthehouse, I really appreciate your kind words, that means a lot to me. On the issue of the USA as Babylon, however, I have to agree with IPet2_9. The USA is not Babylon. At best, we might be a part of Babylon, but even that would be stretching it, most likely. Most people who get into the USA-as-Babylon thing are doing so because they see the USA as the most powerful nation in history and assume that we must have a significant role in the end times. They ignore the fact that, historically, powerful nations inevitably wind up falling, and we will be no different. In fact, I would suggest that if we are still solvent as a nation by 50 years from now, I'll be surprised.

aceinthehouse,

Welcome to the board. I've found many of the posters here very well read and thought provoking. I hope you have the same experience. I do have a couple of ideas about Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots.

The church is the bride of Christ. A harlot would be the antithesis of a pure bride. I believe that the city of Babylon the Great is the center of a false religion. Now, Revelation 17 does give us some very interesting clues as to her identity.

1. She sits on many waters and has fornicated with the kings of the earth (Rev 17:1-2). This would indicate that her influence is worldwide and reaches into the halls of power.

2. She is clothed in purple and scarlet (Rev 17:4).

3. She is the Mother of Harlots (Rev 17:5). This indicates that there are daughter churches of hers that have shared in her sins.

4. She is drunk with the blood of the saints (Rev 17:6). On her orders, many true believers have been put to death.

5. She sits on seven hills (Rev 17:9).

We must ask ourselves, is there a religion or religious system with worldwide influence, headquartered in a City of Seven Hills, that dresses in purple and red, with daughter churches that have shared in her sins, that has put to death many true believers and also reaches into the halls of power throughout much of the earth? I believe the answer to this is yes. She is in the City of Seven Hills of Rome. She is the Vatican. The bishops are dressed in purple and the cardinals are dressed in red. Google the images of bishops and cardinals. She is responsible for the deaths of many true believers. There are those who would probably disagree with me. But this is my opinion.

I do not believe that all Catholics are unsaved or going to hell. Many Catholics will be with us in heaven, many who are Evangelical or Protestant will not be with us there. I believe this is referring to the Vatican, not to every single member of the Roman Catholic Church.

Just some things to think about. I may still be wrong with this, but as far as I can tell, the best indicators we have point to the Vatican as Babylon the Great.

God Bless,

ServantoftheKing

It my understanding that the Great Harlot, and Babylon are two separate "things".

Rev 17 - I agree that the Great Harlot represents false religion [spiritual Babylon], and wasn't America started by people who no longer wanted to follow the Catholic doctrine so they left, and founded this land so they could worship the Lord in truth?

Rev 18 - I believe is the "commercial, and political dimension" [world system]...verse 2-3, 7, 9, 11-15.

Verse 4...is interesting...

I believe this event will happen before the Rapture, and will infact "kick off" some events...

So I ask you guys and girls...Could the Harlot possibly be the "Statue of Liberty"?

Naw, just a statue of a lady wid a funny looking hat.

;)

It my understanding that the Great Harlot, and Babylon are two separate "things".That's right. :yes:
Rev 17 - I agree that the Great Harlot represents false religion [spiritual Babylon], and wasn't America started by people who no longer wanted to follow the Catholic doctrine so they left, and founded this land so they could worship the Lord in truth?That's partly true, but the Catholic Church is only a small part of a larger picture that the "harlot" encompasses. You have to go all the way back to the Tower of Babel and Genesis 11. The Roman Catholic Church is indeed a part of that system, but only a part. The final incarnation of that "harlot" will be the worldwide spread and takeover of Islam, as we see happening before our very eyes even today.
Rev 18 - I believe is the "commercial, and political dimension" [world system]...verse 2-3, 7, 9, 11-15.

Verse 4...is interesting...

I believe this event will happen before the Rapture, and will infact "kick off" some events...That's assuming that you have the Rapture's timing correct, but that's whole 'nother thread......:D

That's assuming that you have the Rapture's timing correct, but that's whole 'nother thread......:D

Yeah...I am believe it in mid -trib, however I am looking for one event to confirm when the 7 years start. Something is going on right now and I "watch, and pray" as the Word states...

To be cont...:spin:

Have you guys seen this...? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_(town),_New_York

There's Town in New york called Babylon,New York as well...It has a water Tower way out in the sea that is used to direct Ships,so they know they are on the right path to the United States..(On the water tower in BIG BOLD LETTERS it says BABYLON)

It houses 200,000 Jews and I believe there are more Jews in this one place then anywhere in the world...

Would this not have any significance?

There's no city,nation or town,besides this one... called Babylon....Add to that and the Harlot (Possibly)being the Statue of Liberty as well...Makes you wonder?

And couldn't the Bible being using our Country as Babylon and not just this little town?Statue as the harlot...Symbol...and idol....?(Didn't the Romans use Huge Statues as symbols of power as well)

Not to mention our Huge football,baseball etc. Stadiums thet are infrastructered the same way(we used the Romans ideas on these stadiums) as the Colluseum in Rome...

What if the U.S. is the Revived Roman Empire and not the EU,that so many claim?We used the same ideas,building structures,currency and eventually....it will be Religion.

What if America is the Mystery "Babylon" in Revelations 17,18 as written in the Bible?And Mystery Babylon will only reign for a short period...correct?Well...Compared to all of the previous Superpowers,if very well could be shortlived as stated in the bible compared to the long reigns of the others...correct?

I just haven't quite figured out the 10 kings as of yet and how that could be put into all of this...more research I guess...


Your thoughts...

Have you guys seen this...? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_(town),_New_York

There's Town in New york called Babylon,New York as well...It has a water Tower way out in the sea that is used to direct Ships,so they know they are on the right path to the United States..(On the water tower in BIG BOLD LETTERS it says BABYLON)

It houses 200,000 Jews and I believe there are more Jews in this one place then anywhere in the world...

Would this not have any significance?Not unless it's going to become the capital of the world.

Not unless it's going to become the capital of the world.


I agree with you,that some little town in New York called Babylon couldn't be the MAJOR capital of the world,but what about New York as a whole?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York
New York City is the leading center of banking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking), finance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finance) and communication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_media) in the United States and is the location of the New York Stock Exchange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Stock_Exchange), the largest stock exchange in the world by dollar volume. Many of the world's largest corporations are based in the city.
The state also has a large manufacturing sector that includes printing and the production of garments, furs, railroad equipment and bus line vehicles.(Check out Rev. 18-Ch.11,12,13) Many of these industries are concentrated in upstate regions. Albany and the Hudson Valley are major centers of nanotechnology and microchip manufacturing, while the Rochester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester,_Monroe_County,_New_York) area is important in photographic equipment and imaging.
New York is a major agricultural producer, ranking among the top five states for agricultural products such as dairy, apples, cherries, cabbage, potatoes, onions, maple syrup and many others. The state is the largest producer of cabbage in the U.S. The state has about a quarter of its land in farms and produced US$3.4 billion in agricultural products in 2001. The south shore of Lake Ontario provides the right mix of soils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil) and microclimate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microclimate) for many apple, cherry, plum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plum), pear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pear) and peach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peach) orchards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchard). Apples are also grown in the Hudson Valley and near Lake Champlain. The south shore of Lake Erie and the southern Finger Lakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_Lakes) hillsides have many vineyards. New York is the nation's third-largest grape-producing state, behind California, and second largest wine producer by volume. In 2004, New York's wine and grape industry brought US$6 billion into the state economy. The state has 30,000 acres (120 km²) of vineyards, 212 wineries, and produced 200 million bottles of wine in 2004. A moderately sized saltwater commercial fishery is located along the Atlantic side of Long Island. The principal catches by value are clams, lobsters, squid, and flounder. These areas have been increasing as environmental protection has led to an increase in ocean wildlife.


If New York was destroyed,how would the U.S. survive?

[/QUOTE]
I agree with you,that some little town in New York called Babylon couldn't be the MAJOR capital of the world,but what about New York as a whole?All the prophecies in the Bible that point to specific locations for God's Wrath at the Day of the Lord are focused on locations that are in the Middle East, specifically nations that are currenty Islamic. There is nothing that indicates anything about the USA.
If New York was destroyed,how would the U.S. survive?As I have already said, if the USA is still solvent and functioning as a nation 50 years from now, I'll be shocked.