Disclaimer: I am asking this question with no clear intention or expectations other than reading the answers. In no way do I mean to give the impression that any of my questions were consciously veiled attempt to solicit something more than an answer. I do in no way guarantee that I will try to become a Christian after I read your answer. Conversely, I also cannot guarantee that I will not try to become a Christian after I read your reply. What I want you to take from this disclaimer is that I would like you to answer my question in the manner that you feel is most reasonable , but please do not have any expectations about what effect your words may have on me. So try and treat my question as a question posed by a person who expects nothing but an answer.


What do I have to do become a Christian?

Not a stupid question at all my friend :pp

First, we must admit that we are sinners, and that our sin has separated us from God. We repent (turn away from our sin)...a "U-Turn" if you will.

Secondly, we believe that Jesus Christ died upon the cross and rose again the third day to pay our personal sin debt.

You can take John 3:16 and put your name there:

For God so loved (Oscarkipling), that He gave His only begotten Son, that (if Oscarkipling would) believeth in Him, (Oscarkipling) should not perish, but have everlasting life

Thirdly, we ask Jesus to come into our hearts and lives to be our Savior and our Lord...and we do this by prayer.

A sample prayer might be:

"Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, that I have done things that I shouldn't have done. I'm sorry for my sin, and I don't want to do it anymore. I believe that you died for me and my sins on the cross; I believe that you rose again from the dead and are alive today. Lord, right now I ask you to come into my heart and my life, and I receive you as my Savior, and my Lord. Help me now to live for you, and thank you for saving me! I pray it in Jesus' name, Amen".


Romans 10:9-10 says:

“that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

The Bible tells us that if we mean it...if we come with that tiny spark of faith that we might have at the time...that we will be born-again, new creations, and made children of God.

So there it is....

Not a stupid question at all my friend :pp

First, we must admit that we are sinners, and that our sin has separated us from God. We repent (turn away from our sin)...a "U-Turn" if you will.

Secondly, we believe that Jesus Christ died upon the cross and rose again the third day to pay our personal sin debt.

You can take John 3:16 and put your name there:

For God so loved (Oscarkipling), that He gave His only begotten Son, that (if Oscarkipling would) believeth in Him, (Oscarkipling) should not perish, but have everlasting life

Thirdly, we ask Jesus to come into our hearts and lives to be our Savior and our Lord...and we do this by prayer.

A sample prayer might be:

"Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, that I have done things that I shouldn't have done. I'm sorry for my sin, and I don't want to do it anymore. I believe that you died for me and my sins on the cross; I believe that you rose again from the dead and are alive today. Lord, right now I ask you to come into my heart and my life, and I receive you as my Savior, and my Lord. Help me now to live for you, and thank you for saving me! I pray it in Jesus' name, Amen".


Romans 10:9-10 says:

“that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

The Bible tells us that if we mean it...if we come with that tiny spark of faith that we might have at the time...that we will be born-again, new creations, and made children of God.

So there it is....


Thanks Mac that seems simple enough.

Putting trust in Christ and what he did for us on the cross is all it takes.

Many people hold Christ in reverence but He said himself that he was the saviour and God eternal. He was either telling the truth or He wasn't. Some hold Him to being just a prophet, or a great teacher. But He said He was the messiah and that His kingdom was not of this world.

I believe He is correct and that He did an amazing thing on the cross.

Are you willing to believe that?

Thanks Mac that seems simple enough.Snuffeluffugus!...why do you ask, Mr. Kipling?

Putting trust in Christ and what he did for us on the cross is all it takes.

Many people hold Christ in reverence but He said himself that he was the saviour and God eternal. He was either telling the truth or He wasn't. Some hold Him to being just a prophet, or a great teacher. But He said He was the messiah and that His kingdom was not of this world.

I believe He is correct and that He did an amazing thing on the cross.

Are you willing to believe that?

thanks for your post MyRock.

Hi Oscar,

Do you believe and do you want to receive Christ?

Snuffeluffugus!...why do you ask, Mr. Kipling?

Utter Bandersnatch!
:lol:
you know me, just asking question, and seeing what comes up...trying to correlate disparate pieces of information to make sense of it all...or maybe just FTW.

It's a great question! Repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your savior!

There is no magic formula. We are saved by God's grace and he is willing to give it to all that believe. No sin is too big or small for God to forgive.

Hi Oscar,

Do you believe and do you want to receive Christ?


no, unfortunately I don't believe, so that makes wanting to receive Christ extremely precarious as well.

Thanks Mac that seems simple enough.

You're welcome Oscar :)

It is indeed so simple that a child can understand it, but at the same time it is something that is so profound that great theologians down through the centuries have yet to fully plumb the depth of the riches and love exhibited by the cross.

You know, I've been a Christian now for almost 20 years, and I've been a full time Christian pastor for the last 7....

I can explain the theological "fine points"...I can tell you about justification, sanctification, etc., I can tell you why the cross was a necessary part of God's redemptive plan, I can even tell you the events leading up to the cross...but yet:

If you were to ask me the question: "John, why did he love YOU enough to do it?"...That I can not answer...I am left speechless with a profound sense of gratitude that Jesus loved me IN SPITE OF MYSELF...Simply something that I can't explain, but something for which I am soooo thankful...:)

It's a great question! Repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your savior!

There is no magic formula. We are saved by God's grace and he is willing to give it to all that believe. No sin is too big or small for God to forgive.

indeed that doesn't sound magical at all. thanks MrAnteater.

no, unfortunately I don't believe, so that makes wanting to receive Christ extremely precarious as well.I kind of figured that...you got me all excited...AGAIN!:spin:

My short answer is that becoming a Chritian happens when you finally sift through all of the 'stuff' and recognize/accept and surrender to the ultimate truth that is written on your heart, as it is written on every human heart. When you find that truth, you will have found Christ. They are inseperable. They are one.

Praying and hoping you get there friend.:pray: Keep knockin'!

You would be a wonderful addition to The Body of Christ.

You're welcome Oscar :)

It is indeed so simple that a child can understand it, but at the same time it is something that is so profound that great theologians down through the centuries have yet to fully plumb the depth of the riches and love exhibited by the cross.

You know, I've been a Christian now for almost 20 years, and I've been a full time Christian pastor for the last 7....

I can explain the theological "fine points"...I can tell you about justification, sanctification, etc., I can tell you why the cross was a necessary part of God's redemptive plan, I can even tell you the events leading up to the cross...but yet:

If you were to ask me the question: "John, why did he love YOU enough to do it?"...That I can not answer...I am left speechless with a profound sense of gratitude that Jesus loved me IN SPITE OF MYSELF...Simply something that I can't explain, but something for which I am soooo thankful...:)


hmmm thats funny, I think that given what i understand (or think I understand) about God, I don't think God can help himself. In that I mean he loves you because that's what God does. but thats notwhat ever really bothered me. i've mostly had problems with the "Finer points"...the vagaries and obscure seeming rules always bug me...I understand that when you look at what God had to do in conjunction with the rules he made up , then it often makes sense. but I ofen think, why would you make rules like that.

I kind of figured that...you got me all excited...AGAIN!:spin:

My short answer is that becoming a Chritian happens when you finally sift through all of the 'stuff' and recognize/accept and surrender to the ultimate truth that is written on your heart, as it is written on every human heart. When you find that truth, you will have found Christ. They are inseperable. They are one.

Praying and hoping you get there friend.:pray: Keep knockin'!

You would be a wonderful addition to The Body of Christ.

I apologize for getting your hopes up, and yet for some reason i'd feel worse if you had no hope for me at all. whats your long answer, if you don't mind?

well, after you've tried everything 'life' has to offer and you realize that nothing fills the 'empty' gap left in your soul you get one step closer to realizing that Jesus can fill that gap (we hope;)).

straight up guy, knowing Jesus has changed me as a person. literally, and it's not my imagination. this is more of the reply to you than the question, cuz i've kinda been checkin your posts here and there and know you know some things about stuff and junk.

word up son!

well, after you've tried everything 'life' has to offer and you realize that nothing fills the 'empty' gap left in your soul you get one step closer to realizing that Jesus can fill that gap (we hope;)).

straight up guy, knowing Jesus has changed me as a person. literally, and it's not my imagination. this is more of the reply to you than the question, cuz i've kinda been checkin your posts here and there and know you know some things about stuff and junk.

word up son!

dude, stuff and junk...it like i'm seeing that all over the place in the last few days... that's weird...as a matter of fact I've been seeing lots of connecting threads in the last few days. Some as silly as "stuff and junk" and then others things like "Phookas" which I wouldnt imagine to randomly run across more than once in a long while. idk , just weird stuff and junk, thanks for your reply and junk

Disclaimer: I am asking this question with no clear intention or expectations other than reading the answers. In no way do I mean to give the impression that any of my questions were consciously veiled attempt to solicit something more than an answer. I do in no way guarantee that I will try to become a Christian after I read your answer. Conversely, I also cannot guarantee that I will not try to become a Christian after I read your reply. What I want you to take from this disclaimer is that I would like you to answer my question in the manner that you feel is most reasonable , but please do not have any expectations about what effect your words may have on me. So try and treat my question as a question posed by a person who expects nothing but an answer.

What do I have to do become a Christian?

I had to take off the formatting - that bright red -- whewww !!

You're not the first to ask that question...

Matt 19:16-30
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying,

...Who then can be saved?...

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Blessings friend...

I apologize for getting your hopes up, and yet for some reason i'd feel worse if you had no hope for me at all. whats your long answer, if you don't mind?My long answer?:hmm: Same as my short answer I guess, with more words that just end up getting in the way.

Long answers are not my specialty. I leave those for the 'End Times'/Bible Chat' crowd!:lol:

dude, stuff and junk...it like i'm seeing that all over the place in the last few days... that's weird...as a matter of fact I've been seeing lots of connecting threads in the last few days. Some as silly as "stuff and junk" and then others things like "Phookas" which I wouldnt imagine to randomly run across more than once in a long while. idk , just weird stuff and junk, thanks for your reply and junk

haha. oh man. i don't even know what to make of that reply.:D

but do me a favor eh, eventhough this is off topic, if you don't mind as well, put up what you know about christianity. if your into it. maybe short verson...

ya man.

I had to take off the formatting - that bright red -- whewww !!

You're not the first to ask that question...

Matt 19:16-30
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying,

...Who then can be saved?...

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Blessings friend...

Did you just post that to confuse me? Please explain this to me.

What do I have to do become a Christian?

You seriously crack me up.....I know you are being sincere! I bet we would get along FABULOUSLY in person!

Based on your previous topics posted, I can tell you are genuinely interested in Christianity. I applaud you for finding a fair forum in which to post your questions. Very, very smart thing to do. Most people do not invest this much time and effort on something this important.

Salvation (becoming a Christian) is so stinkin easy....it's so easy that many people trip right over it. You know us humans...we want to work at something or make it harder to understand...kind of like our government, huh?

Two sides to the coin: Bad News and Good News

There's no such thing as good news unless there is bad news, right? One has to counter the other. To have salvation - you must understand both.

BAD NEWS (about you)

1) You are a sinner - ok, this is a 'duh'. Most people know they are sinners or have a concept of doing wrong and feeling guilty. The bible says EVERYONE is a sinner. That means everybody. (Romans 3:23)
2) You can't be good enough to get to heaven. This is the most common misconception about Christianity. The logic is that there is a good place where good people go when they die. The problem is - there ARE NO GOOD PEOPLE. Luke 18:19 tells us that no one is good, except God. Isaiah 64:6 says that nothing righteous (good) we do is acceptable to God.
3) Because we are sinners and can't save ourselves, our sin will send us to hell. Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. A wage is something you earn. By sinning we earn death. Death is two-fold. We will die once physically and once spiritually. Rev. 20:14, 15 tells us that whoever does not have their name written in the Book of Life (saved) will die a second death - which is separation from God in a place called hell.

GOOD NEWS (about Jesus - The Gospel)

The word Gospel actually means 'good news'. The Gospel is defined in I Corinthians 15:1-4 as the DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ, plus nothing, minus nothing.

1) Christ died (paid) for our sins, proving that man cannot save himself (Eph 2:8,9; Titus 3:5)

2) Christ was buried, proving that the price for salvation was paid in full. (Romans 6:23a)

3) Christ rose from the dead, proving that He was, is, and always will be God. (Romans 1:4)

These are the facts of the Gospel - are you willing to accept them and be saved? If so, acknowledge the following:

1 - Repent and agree with God that you are a sinner and that you cannot save yourself. (Rom 3:23)
2 - Repent and agree with God that your sin is bad enough to send you to hell and that you need the Savior. (Rom 6:23/Luke 13:1-5)
3 - Repent and accept what the Savior (Christ) did for you on the cross and ask Him to save you from your sin and take you to heaven when you die. (Rom 5:8 & 10:13)

My long answer?:hmm: Same as my short answer I guess, with more words that just end up getting in the way.

Long answers are not my specialty. I leave those for the 'End Times'/Bible Chat' crowd!:lol:


well played, you never had any intention of giving me a long answer, you just alluded to it in order to make me feel appreciative that you gave me any answer at all, well played indeed...

nah, yeah I understand , thanks for the post

haha. oh man. i don't even know what to make of that reply.:D

but do me a favor eh, eventhough this is off topic, if you don't mind as well, put up what you know about christianity. if your into it. maybe short verson...

ya man.

I did something like that a while ago, but I can do a new one, i'll start a "What I think I learned" thread maybe this weekend, it will be my most comprehensive collection of incoherent gibberish yet..so i look forward to your thoughts on my thoughts on your christianity

What do I have to do become a Christian?

In theory it's simple. You accept you are a sinner, you accept that you can't do it on your own and you deserve to spend eternity in hell. Then you accept that because of the sacrifice Jesus made for you, you don't have to do any of that and you can spend eternity in heaven with God instead.

Joh 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

In theory it's easy, in practice becoming a Christian can change you in ways you wouldn't think possible right now!

I did something like that a while ago, but I can do a new one, i'll start a "What I think I learned" thread maybe this weekend, it will be my most comprehensive collection of incoherent gibberish yet..so i look forward to your thoughts on my thoughts on your christianity

When you do that Oscar, PLEASE give us some paragraph breaks okay! :D That way we can take a breath as we read this long and comprehensive tome coming up this weekend. :saint:

You seriously crack me up.....I know you are being sincere! I bet we would get along FABULOUSLY in person!

Based on your previous topics posted, I can tell you are genuinely interested in Christianity. I applaud you for finding a fair forum in which to post your questions. Very, very smart thing to do. Most people do not invest this much time and effort on something this important.

Salvation (becoming a Christian) is so stinkin easy....it's so easy that many people trip right over it. You know us humans...we want to work at something or make it harder to understand...kind of like our government, huh?

Two sides to the coin: Bad News and Good News

There's no such thing as good news unless there is bad news, right? One has to counter the other. To have salvation - you must understand both.

BAD NEWS (about you)

1) You are a sinner - ok, this is a 'duh'. Most people know they are sinners or have a concept of doing wrong and feeling guilty. The bible says EVERYONE is a sinner. That means everybody. (Romans 3:23)
2) You can't be good enough to get to heaven. This is the most common misconception about Christianity. The logic is that there is a good place where good people go when they die. The problem is - there ARE NO GOOD PEOPLE. Luke 18:19 tells us that no one is good, except God. Isaiah 64:6 says that nothing righteous (good) we do is acceptable to God.
3) Because we are sinners and can't save ourselves, our sin will send us to hell. Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. A wage is something you earn. By sinning we earn death. Death is two-fold. We will die once physically and once spiritually. Rev. 20:14, 15 tells us that whoever does not have their name written in the Book of Life (saved) will die a second death - which is separation from God in a place called hell.

GOOD NEWS (about Jesus - The Gospel)

The word Gospel actually means 'good news'. The Gospel is defined in I Corinthians 15:1-4 as the DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ, plus nothing, minus nothing.

1) Christ died (paid) for our sins, proving that man cannot save himself (Eph 2:8,9; Titus 3:5)

2) Christ was buried, proving that the price for salvation was paid in full. (Romans 6:23a)

3) Christ rose from the dead, proving that He was, is, and always will be God. (Romans 1:4)

These are the facts of the Gospel - are you willing to accept them and be saved? If so, acknowledge the following:

1 - Repent and agree with God that you are a sinner and that you cannot save yourself. (Rom 3:23)
2 - Repent and agree with God that your sin is bad enough to send you to hell and that you need the Savior. (Rom 6:23/Luke 13:1-5)
3 - Repent and accept what the Savior (Christ) did for you on the cross and ask Him to save you from your sin and take you to heaven when you die. (Rom 5:8 & 10:13)


Thanks for putting that post together for me SoldOut, and i'd bet we would get along swimmingly.

In theory it's simple. You accept you are a sinner, you accept that you can't do it on your own and you deserve to spend eternity in hell. Then you accept that because of the sacrifice Jesus made for you, you don't have to do any of that and you can spend eternity in heaven with God instead.

Joh 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

In theory it's easy, in practice becoming a Christian can change you in ways you wouldn't think possible right now!

thanks for your post

When you do that Oscar, PLEASE give us some paragraph breaks okay! :D That way we can take a breath as we read this long and comprehensive tome coming up this weekend. :saint:


:lol: comprehensive AND comprehensible? That's asking a bit much of me, but i'll try LOL.

well played, you never had any intention of giving me a long answer, you just alluded to it in order to make me feel appreciative that you gave me any answer at all, well played indeed...

nah, yeah I understand , thanks for the postumm........thank you?:dunno:

"Phookas" LOL

Hi Oscar,
Becoming a Christian is fairly simple.

Repent and believe... then continue growing and letting God change you.

Coming to Christ isn’t about saying exactly the right words or doing the right things. It isn’t even about going to church. Doing good and going to church are good things, but they won't get you to Heaven.

Christianity is about relinquishing control to God and trusting that Jesus lived on this Earth and that He died – not just for everyone else, but for you.
THAT is how much He loves YOU.


It’s about trusting Christ and placing your faith in Him as a matter of choice.
It’s about understanding that nothing you do will be good enough to get you entrance to Heaven, but the good news
(the gospel) is that Jesus has already taken the punishment we all deserve for not being perfect humans.

He has made a way for us to come into the presence of a holy God - not as slaves, but as His sons and daughters.

This is something that you just simply accept – even as a child has no trouble accepting these things.

It is being deliberate in turning (180 degrees) from sin, and turning toward God – everyday.
This begins on the inside by simply wanting to –
Then as we continue to grow, the Holy Spirit begins to transform us from the inside to the outside.
Have patience with yourself, it won’t happen over night.
If (when) you mess up, tell God about it, pick up the pieces and continue to grow.

Contrary to some who preach a “feel-good Christianity”, God will not automatically solve all your problems, once you’re saved.
But He will be with you though all that you experience. Learn to lean into His love when troubles do come.

Growth in Christ is a life long process and progress may not always be obvious.
Still, He is able to complete the good work that He began in you.

Get a Bible and read it everyday. Start off with one of the gospels and then Paul's letters.

Richard

"Phookas" LOL

Hi Oscar,
Becoming a Christian is fairly simple.

Repent and believe... then continue growing and letting God change you.

Coming to Christ isn’t about saying exactly the right words or doing the right things. It isn’t even about going to church. Doing good and going to church are good things, but they won't get you to Heaven.

Christianity is about relinquishing control to God and trusting that Jesus lived on this Earth and that He died – not just for everyone else, but for you.
THAT is how much He loves YOU.


It’s about trusting Christ and placing your faith in Him as a matter of choice.
It’s about understanding that nothing you do will be good enough to get you entrance to Heaven, but the good news
(the gospel) is that Jesus has already taken the punishment we all deserve for not being perfect humans.

He has made a way for us to come into the presence of a holy God - not as slaves, but as His sons and daughters.

This is something that you just simply accept – even as a child has no trouble accepting these things.

It is being deliberate in turning (180 degrees) from sin, and turning toward God – everyday.
This begins on the inside by simply wanting to –
Then as we continue to grow, the Holy Spirit begins to transform us from the inside to the outside.
Have patience with yourself, it won’t happen over night.
If (when) you mess up, tell God about it, pick up the pieces and continue to grow.

Contrary to some who preach a “feel-good Christianity”, God will not automatically solve all your problems, once you’re saved.
But He will be with you though all that you experience. Learn to lean into His love when troubles do come.

Growth in Christ is a life long process and progress may not always be obvious.
Still, He is able to complete the good work that He began in you.

Get a Bible and read it everyday. Start off with one of the gospels and then Paul's letters.

Richard

Thanks for your post Richard, good things

no, unfortunately I don't believe, so that makes wanting to receive Christ extremely precarious as well.Hey Oscar,


This might be my first post in one of your threads. :D I have a couple questions for you. What do you think brought you to this forum to discuss God? Do you think it was just a random thought you had, or do you really want to know why we believe what we believe? And last but not least, can you describe the most beautiful sunset you've ever experienced to a person who has been blind from birth?

Hey Oscar,


This might be my first post in one of your threads. :D I have a couple questions for you. What do you think brought you to this forum to discuss God? Do you think it was just a random thought you had, or do you really want to know why we believe what we believe?


I think it is most truthful for me to say that curiosity about Christians and Christianity brought me here.




And last but not least, can you describe the most beautiful sunset you've ever experienced to a person who has been blind from birth?

Yes I can, we all have the ability to describe many things, even things that don't exist in reality....that's not a slight, just something that I feel is true.

What is left out, is that for us to merely say so is of none effect: to confess, ie: acknowledge Jesus as Lord is much more than merely saying so, rather one whom we will call our Lord is the one who we will obey. If we will be a true Christian, we will deny our own will, and carry our own load, and the cargo of others. As for obeying, this is to say, that our sincere effort to do the things which He tells us to do will be there, because if we truly do believe in Christ, we will do what He tells us. It has become the course of many churches to presume that they must do nothing, and even teach others so, and deceive them that hear, while deceiving their own selves. For this cause did Christ Himself tell us, Why do you call me Lord, and do not the things which I say? Again, to confess Jesus as Lord with our mouth is a commitment to submission, it is an oath to the One we call Lord. The great falling away of many professing Christians, is that they want Jesus as Saviour, but when it comes to being Lord, they take it lightly.

I think it is most truthful for me to say that curiosity about Christians and Christianity brought me here. What is it about Christians that has you curious?

Yes I can, we all have the ability to describe many things, even things that don't exist in reality....that's not a slight, just something that I feel is true.Describe one to me, assuming I've been blind from birth.

What is left out, is that for us to merely say so is of none effect: to confess, ie: acknowledge Jesus as Lord is much more than merely saying so, rather one whom we will call our Lord is the one who we will obey. If we will be a true Christian, we will deny our own will, and carry our own load, and the cargo of others. As for obeying, this is to say, that our sincere effort to do the things which He tells us to do will be there, because if we truly do believe in Christ, we will do what He tells us. It has become the course of many churches to presume that they must do nothing, and even teach others so, and deceive them that hear, while deceiving their own selves. For this cause did Christ Himself tell us, Why do you call me Lord, and do not the things which I say? Again, to confess Jesus as Lord with our mouth is a commitment to submission, it is an oath to the One we call Lord. The great falling away of many professing Christians, is that they want Jesus as Saviour, but when it comes to being Lord, they take it lightly.

If you disobey the will of God do you cease being Christian?

What is it about Christians that has you curious?


Christians? well, I wonder why they believe what they do. I wonder what exactly they believe.




Describe one to me, assuming I've been blind from birth.

okay, A sunset is when the sun appears to descend in the the sky to the point that it becomes occluded by the horizon of the earth. If all the conditions are right this event is accompanied by many color changes in the sky and clouds. The sun itself can appear to shift from a bright yellow to a deep orange or red in some cases purples and many shades of blue may be seen.

If you disobey the will of God do you cease being Christian?

Hi Oscar,
The short answer is: no*.

Here’s the long answer:

* Sin is Disobedience. A Christian who sins does not cease to be a Christian. But understand this:
The Bible says that the wages (end result) of sin is death. (Romans 6:23) This is not just one sin, but the sinful disobedient and rebellious human nature.
In the Old Testament, God required an offering as a symbol of obedience. This was only a temporary solution, because we just are not perfect beings at all – requiring more and more offerings.

Part of God’s plan was to introduce offerings to “educate” us to this and the fact that: a HOLY God will simply will not any have the profaned in His presence.
Hence: the wages of sin is to be cut off from God. From an eternal standpoint, this is the second death after judgment. (Rev 20:6 and Rev 2:8)

Another part of His plan (now that humans have been “taught” this lesson), was to provide a better way.
God Himself became flesh and lived among us. His name was “Yahoshuah” in Hebrew which means Yah (God) is salvation.
The people of His day spoke Aramaic, so they called Him “Yeshua”, but we know Him by the Greek: “Jesus”.

Jesus (since He was God), was able to live His whole life in obedience to the Father.
He lived a sinless live - the only person in history to have ever done so.
He allowed Himself to be crucified as a criminal for our sake. He offered Himself in our place and IS our offering.
Not an offering which must continue to be carried out, but once and for ALL (all time and all people) (Heb 2:17) (read John chapter 3)

Not only that, but He rose from the dead on the third day - conquering death. Thereby, removing the offence and the punishment. (1 Corinthians 15:3,4)
By “accepting” Jesus, we accept that what He did was sufficient - now and forever.
We also accept Him as Lord: meaning that we become obedient to what He taught and thereby obedient to God the Father.

He put His Spirit in us to displace our sinful human spirit, to teach us and enable us to follow His sinless example.

Christians still sin sometimes, but we are called to follow and obey Him, so the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and instills in us the desire not to do it again.
We must repent (which means: to turn again), ask forgiveness and continue following. To do less: is to not accept the offering made on our behalf.

Now sometimes we get distracted by the things of the world and follow after our own desires and lusts for a time (back-sliding), but God is faithful even when we are not. (Jude 1:24)
His spirit calls us back into proper fellowship with Him. (1 Cor 1:9)

So a Christian who sins does not lose salvation, but to continue ignoring God’s call to His grace - might put one in jeopardy at the Judgment: as they would be ignoring the death of Jesus and what it meant.

In short; repent and believe - then obey (putting God ahead of SELF).(Matthew 6:33)

‘Hope this helps,
Richard





PS: in my 25 years following Christ I can tell you that:

God IS real.
Jesus IS real.
Following Him was the best choice I ever made.

Christians? well, I wonder why they believe what they do. I wonder what exactly they believe.Why is this an important part of your growth as a human being? How long have you been studying psychology?

okay, A sunset is when the sun appears to descend in the the sky to the point that it becomes occluded by the horizon of the earth. If all the conditions are right this event is accompanied by many color changes in the sky and clouds. The sun itself can appear to shift from a bright yellow to a deep orange or red in some cases purples and many shades of blue may be seen.I want to remind you that I did say, "assuming I've been blind from birth".

Since I've never actually seen any of what you've described, there are several questions that come to mind.



What is the sun?
What is the horizon?
What is the sky and clouds?
What are colors?
Describe yellow, deep orange, red, purple, and blue.
What are they as well? (i.e. What is "yellow"? for example).
What is bright?

The point of the exercise Oscar is not just to describe the scientific occurrence of a sunset (which is really not the point). You have to describe it so I can not only understand what you're talking about, but also get a sense of what "you" are seeing. If I have never seen those things, how are you best going to describe them, so that I can visualize these things in my mind? Paint the picture "you" see, because I can't see it, remember. I've never seen any of those things in the list of questions I have.

Can you describe a sunset so I can completely understand what you are talking about?

Hi Oscar,
The short answer is: no*.

Here’s the long answer:

* Sin is Disobedience. A Christian who sins does not cease to be a Christian. But understand this:
The Bible says that the wages (end result) of sin is death. (Romans 6:23) This is not just one sin, but the sinful disobedient and rebellious human nature.
In the Old Testament, God required an offering as a symbol of obedience. This was only a temporary solution, because we just are not perfect beings at all – requiring more and more offerings.

Part of God’s plan was to introduce offerings to “educate” us to this and the fact that: a HOLY God will simply will not any have the profaned in His presence.
Hence: the wages of sin is to be cut off from God. From an eternal standpoint, this is the second death after judgment. (Rev 20:6 and Rev 2:8)

Another part of His plan (now that humans have been “taught” this lesson), was to provide a better way.
God Himself became flesh and lived among us. His name was “Yahoshuah” in Hebrew which means Yah (God) is salvation.
The people of His day spoke Aramaic, so they called Him “Yeshua”, but we know Him by the Greek: “Jesus”.

Jesus (since He was God), was able to live His whole life in obedience to the Father.
He lived a sinless live - the only person in history to have ever done so.
He allowed Himself to be crucified as a criminal for our sake. He offered Himself in our place and IS our offering.
Not an offering which must continue to be carried out, but once and for ALL (all time and all people) (Heb 2:17) (read John chapter 3)

Not only that, but He rose from the dead on the third day - conquering death. Thereby, removing the offence and the punishment. (1 Corinthians 15:3,4)
By “accepting” Jesus, we accept that what He did was sufficient - now and forever.
We also accept Him as Lord: meaning that we become obedient to what He taught and thereby obedient to God the Father.

He put His Spirit in us to displace our sinful human spirit, to teach us and enable us to follow His sinless example.

Christians still sin sometimes, but we are called to follow and obey Him, so the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and instills in us the desire not to do it again.
We must repent (which means: to turn again), ask forgiveness and continue following. To do less: is to not accept the offering made on our behalf.

Now sometimes we get distracted by the things of the world and follow after our own desires and lusts for a time (back-sliding), but God is faithful even when we are not. (Jude 1:24)
His spirit calls us back into proper fellowship with Him. (1 Cor 1:9)

So a Christian who sins does not lose salvation, but to continue ignoring God’s call to His grace - might put one in jeopardy at the Judgment: as they would be ignoring the death of Jesus and what it meant.

In short; repent and believe - then obey (putting God ahead of SELF).(Matthew 6:33)

‘Hope this helps,
Richard





PS: in my 25 years following Christ I can tell you that:

God IS real.
Jesus IS real.
Following Him was the best choice I ever made.



Thank you for your post.

Why is this an important part of your growth as a human being? How long have you been studying psychology?


Well, I don't know that this is important to my growth as a human being. I will say that one of the most significant things to come out of reading various parts of this forum is being able to view other peoples beliefs. I find this significant because it has helped me to evaluate my own beliefs and actions...I think that this self realization in some way can be construed as growth.



I want to remind you that I did say, "assuming I've been blind from birth".

Since I've never actually seen any of what you've described, there are several questions that come to mind.



What is the sun?
What is the horizon?
What is the sky and clouds?
What are colors?
Describe yellow, deep orange, red, purple, and blue.
What are they as well? (i.e. What is "yellow"? for example).
What is bright?

The point of the exercise Oscar is not just to describe the scientific occurrence of a sunset (which is really not the point). You have to describe it so I can not only understand what you're talking about, but also get a sense of what "you" are seeing. If I have never seen those things, how are you best going to describe them, so that I can visualize these things in my mind? Paint the picture "you" see, because I can't see it, remember. I've never seen any of those things in the list of questions I have.

Can you describe a sunset so I can completely understand what you are talking about?

What you are asking me to do is not a description, you are asking me to make someone see something. That lies outside of the realm of description. All of the words that you asked me to define have descriptions themselves and can be described. A description is a representation of a thing and not the thing itself. It makes no difference if the person is blind or not, when describing something you are using analogies and symbols to represent something else. Even what we see is only a representation that is created by our brains, an interpretation of whatever input we are able to receive. What we perceive as the sun is only a description and not the sun. We cannot detect the sun in every way from every point in spacetime so our concept of it is a description of something that is not the description. non-simultaneous apprehension as a wise old man once called it.

Anyway, my point is that you can describe a sunset to a seeing person a blind person or a chair, but making something see what you see is a horse of a different color.

Well, I don't know that this is important to my growth as a human being. I will say that one of the most significant things to come out of reading various parts of this forum is being able to view other peoples beliefs. I find this significant because it has helped me to evaluate my own beliefs and actions...I think that this self realization in some way can be construed as growth. That's good! Growth is when you learn something you didn't know. You've fed your mind so it grows in knowledge and understanding.

What you are asking me to do is not a description, you are asking me to make someone see something. That lies outside of the realm of description. All of the words that you asked me to define have descriptions themselves and can be described. A description is a representation of a thing and not the thing itself. It makes no difference if the person is blind or not, when describing something you are using analogies and symbols to represent something else. Even what we see is only a representation that is created by our brains, an interpretation of whatever input we are able to receive. What we perceive as the sun is only a description and not the sun. We cannot detect the sun in every way from every point in spacetime so our concept of it is a description of something that is not the description. non-simultaneous apprehension as a wise old man once called it.

Anyway, my point is that you can describe a sunset to a seeing person a blind person or a chair, but making something see what you see is a horse of a different color.The word "describe" is defined as such, "to tell or depict in written or spoken words; give an account of: He described the accident very carefully." If the latter part of that is an accurate use of the word, how well did you do on describing a sunset? It sounds to me like "he" took his time in describing the accident very carefully so the officer could see how the accident occurred through his eyes. That is what I was asking you to do.

From what you said after that, that is bolded, one could easily conclude that nothing is real, not even this can of spam in front of me. I only perceive that the can of spam is there. And that would mean that I'm not really talking to you either, all of this is a creation of my own imagination, and none of it is real. So when do you wake up? Or am I just kidding myself thinking I'm actually here at all? Have you ever wondered what "tasty wheat" really tastes like? How did the machine know what to make it taste like? I'm sorry Oscar, I had a flashback to the Matrix movie there. :D

That's good! Growth is when you learn something you didn't know. You've fed your mind so it grows in knowledge and understanding.


well, thank you, I'm fairly pleased with the outcome as well.



The word "describe" is defined as such, "to tell or depict in written or spoken words; give an account of: He described the accident very carefully." If the latter part of that is an accurate use of the word, how well did you do on describing a sunset? It sounds to me like "he" took his time in describing the accident very carefully so the officer could see how the accident occurred through his eyes. That is what I was asking you to do.


well, I guess it appears that we have conflicting opinions on the definitions of some words and the limitations of description...and that's fine because it is a perfectly normal way to be in my opinion.



From what you said after that, that is bolded, one could easily conclude that nothing is real, not even this can of spam in front of me. I only perceive that the can of spam is there. And that would mean that I'm not really talking to you either, all of this is a creation of my own imagination, and none of it is real. So when do you wake up? Or am I just kidding myself thinking I'm actually here at all? Have you ever wondered what "tasty wheat" really tastes like? How did the machine know what to make it taste like? I'm sorry Oscar, I had a flashback to the Matrix movie there. :D

Yes, I imagine that one could easily conclude that nothing is real, this would not be my conclusion though. I would probably conclude that what we perceive as reality is only a representation of something that does actually exist. Spam itself a representation of a wide array of concepts and a very specific arrangement of matter in space time. I wouldn't argue that Spam doesn't exist, but I would argue that Spam is possibly much more than our brain is able to apprehend simultaneously, so we quantize what we can comprehend (apprehend) and call it Spam. As a Christian this concept really shouldn't be all that foreign to you God cannot be simultaneously apprehended, at best we have a series of concepts and symbols meant to represent God. Colors are our brains representation of certain wavelengths of electromagnetic energy reacting with our sensing apparatus, but electromagnetic energy is not color, color is a representation of it. The Taste of wheat is a representation of chemical reactions between our sensing apparatus and chemical compounds that compose wheat, tastes is not wheat nor is taste a tongue, but a representation of an interaction. This is not to say that neither exists, they both exists but they are not each other....although I would say without an observer, the concepts would not exists, although existence and interactions could still occur. I don't think that concepts exists without a conceptualizer.....also Spam should not exist because it is objectively gross and i have the calculations to prove it.

<snip>
.....also Spam should not exist because it is objectively gross and i have the calculations to prove it.

___________________________:rofl:

well, thank you, I'm fairly pleased with the outcome as well.Now the question is, what are you going to do with this new knowledge and understanding?
well, I guess it appears that we have conflicting opinions on the definitions of some words and the limitations of description...and that's fine because it is a perfectly normal way to be in my opinion.So there's no real standard on a definition of a word? A word can be used however we see fit as long as it's in the ball park anyway?

Yes, I imagine that one could easily conclude that nothing is real, this would not be my conclusion though. I would probably conclude that what we perceive as reality is only a representation of something that does actually exist. Spam itself a representation, a wide array of concepts and a very specific arrangement of matter in space time. I wouldn't argue that Spam doesn't exist, but I would argue that Spam is possibly much more than our brain is able to apprehend simultaneously, so we quantize what we can comprehend (apprehend) and call it Spam. As a Christian this concept really shouldn't be all that foreign to you God cannot be simultaneously apprehended, at best we have a series of concepts and symbols meant to represent God. Colors are our brains representation of certain wavelengths of electromagnetic energy reacting with our sensing apparatus, but electromagnetic energy is not color, color is a representation of it. The Taste of wheat is a representation of chemical reactions between our sensing apparatus and chemical compounds that compose wheat, tastes is not wheat nor is taste a tongue, but a representation of an interaction. This is not to say that neither exists, they both exists but they are not each other....although I would say without an observer, the concepts would not exists, although existence and interactions could still occur. I don't think that concepts exists without a conceptualizer.....also Spam should not exist because it is objectively gross and i have the calculations to prove it.So God is just a series of concepts and symbols?

Parts is parts aren't they? They gotta use every part of the hog except the squeal don't they? It's no worse than potted meat, hot dogs, vienna sausages, or bologna is it? All of them add up to parts of the animal we wouldn't eat otherwise don't they?

Now the question is, what are you going to do with this new knowledge and understanding?


well, I haven't made any concrete plans, but I'll probably draw on it in situations where I find that I can make some use of it...that's pretty much how knowledge has worked for me so far.



So there's no real standard on a definition of a word? A word can be used however we see fit as long as it's in the ball park anyway?


well there are standard definitions for words, or we have standardized symbols and ever more symbols to describe those symbols...the underlying concepts though are often more elusive...this can be seen in our exchange. We have differing interpretations of what the definition of description "means". We could use words however we see fit, but that would begin to resemble communication less and less the more its done....but language is relative like that imo, although its also pretty good at what it does.



So God is just a series of concepts and symbols?


No, if God exists then God is not a series of concepts and symbols, but we use concepts and symbols in order to describe God. The symbols and concepts are a representation of God, God would be something else something more, something different.



Parts is parts aren't they? They gotta use every part of the hog except the squeal don't they? It's no worse than potted meat, hot dogs, vienna sausages, or bologna is it? All of them add up to parts of the animal we wouldn't eat otherwise don't they?

:lol: They don't have to use every part, and they definately dont have to use every part for human food, sow ear biodiesel would help save the environment and help save my palette....but okay man, enjoy your spam and your flat spam rounds and your spam cylinders. :pray:

I had to take off the formatting - that bright red -- whewww !!

You're not the first to ask that question...

Matt 19:16-30
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying,

...Who then can be saved?...

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Blessings friend...

I really don't know what I'm supposed to take away from this, could someone please explain what this means?

I really don't know what I'm supposed to take away from this, could someone please explain what this means?

Well lets go through it together then! Let me ask you a few questions about it, if you don't mind. I'll be out of town until late tomorrow evening, so I'll give you a few questions to guide the reading.



Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

Matt 19:16-30





What was the question that was asked, who asked it?
What was the answer?
What did they do, having been given the answer?

What do you think this means... "but many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first." in context of the original quote?

Let's examine two other instances in which a person believed and followed Jesus...



"Then Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men." And they immediately left their nets and followed Him."
Mark 1:17-18


and again



"Then Jesus said to him, "Go your way, your faith has made you well." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road."
Mark 10:52


Considering all three of these verses, what can you conclude about entering the Kingdom of Heaven?

Well lets go through it together then! Let me ask you a few questions about it, if you don't mind. I'll be out of town until late tomorrow evening, so I'll give you a few questions to guide the reading.


[quote=renthead188;1795704]
What was the question that was asked, who asked it?


It looks to me like a rich youngster asked Jesus what he had to do to gain eternal life.



What was the answer?


It looks to me like Jesus told him to follow 5 of the 10 commandments and then a another commandment about loving your neighbor. Then Jesus goes on to tell him how to be perfect by by selling his stuff and donating the proceeds to the poor , then following him.



What did they do, having been given the answer?


The guy leaves because he didn't want to sell all of his stuff.



What do you think this means... "but many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first." in context of the original quote?


it looks to me like the quote is referencing wealthy people vs poorer people.



Considering all three of these verses, what can you conclude about entering the Kingdom of Heaven?

Well that's whats confusing, it looks to me like you could just follow those 6 commandments and get into heaven, but if someone were to sell all of their stuff and follow Jesus then they would gain some added benefits in heaven. idk

Hi Oscar,
I’m up late and on the west coast, so I’ll go ahead since I see you’re online.

It wasn’t that the man was rich. Jesus knew what he valued more than anything. His wealth.
He valued it more than following the Lord. Sure, he wanted to be saved, but in the end he wanted his money even more.

If he loved spam more than anything, Jesus (knowing the man’s heart) would have said “Give your spam to the hungry and come and follow me.”

Jesus doesn’t always tell us to give up things in order to follow Him, but we are to put Him first.
In the sermon on the mount Jesus told the people that God was aware of all their needs (not their wants, but their needs). Then He said this:
“But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.” Mat 6:33

The man gave five examples of commandments, but we can assume that he was saying he kept the Ten Commandments.
Keeping all ten is not enough, if God isn’t your first priority.

How do you make God your priority? You must follow Jesus.




…and so the man went away sad. :(


Richard

[quote=renthead188;1795704]Well lets go through it together then! Let me ask you a few questions about it, if you don't mind. I'll be out of town until late tomorrow evening, so I'll give you a few questions to guide the reading.




It looks to me like a rich youngster asked Jesus what he had to do to gain eternal life.



It looks to me like Jesus told him to follow 5 of the 10 commandments and then a another commandment about loving your neighbor. Then Jesus goes on to tell him how to be perfect by by selling his stuff and donating the proceeds to the poor , then following him.



The guy leaves because he didn't want to sell all of his stuff.



it looks to me like the quote is referencing wealthy people vs poorer people.



Well that's whats confusing, it looks to me like you could just follow those 6 commandments and get into heaven, but if someone were to sell all of their stuff and follow Jesus then they would gain some added benefits in heaven. idk

Oscar

Jesus tells the rich young man that he must keep all of the commandments. Being a Jew, the man knows the commandments, and insists that he's kept them ALL from his youth. Jesus shows the man that he hasn't, by loving his riches more than he loves Jesus. Jesus invites the man to deny those riches, to come and follow Him. Jesus invites the man to leave his fishing nets (and his old way of living) and come follow Jesus... becoming a fisher of men. Jesus invites the man to abandon his blindness (and his spiritual blindness) and come follow Jesus...

All three of these men had something that required faith in order to give up for Jesus. All three of them were invited to give it up to follow Him.

"But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first."

This quote could definetely be applied to riches, but what of the Kingdom of God as a whole?

Hi Oscar,
I’m up late and on the west coast, so I’ll go ahead since I see you’re online.

It wasn’t that the man was rich. Jesus knew what he valued more than anything. His wealth.
He valued it more than following the Lord. Sure, he wanted to be saved, but in the end he wanted his money even more.

If he loved spam more than anything, Jesus (knowing the man’s heart) would have said “Give your spam to the hungry and come and follow me.”

Jesus doesn’t always tell us to give up things in order to follow Him, but we are to put Him first.
In the sermon on the mount Jesus told the people that God was aware of all their needs (not their wants, but their needs). Then He said this:
“But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.” Mat 6:33

The man gave five examples of commandments, but we can assume that he was saying he kept the Ten Commandments.
Keeping all ten is not enough, if God isn’t your first priority.

How do you make God your priority? You must follow Jesus.




…and so the man went away sad. :(


Richard

Maybe you could offer some insight on why Jesus chose to first say that he could enter life if he kept the commandments. Did he say that because he knew it was impossible for the fellow to have kept them? Why did he choose to use the term "perfect"?

Oscar

Jesus tells the rich young man that he must keep all of the commandments. Being a Jew, the man knows the commandments, and insists that he's kept them ALL from his youth.



I don't know renthead, he asked Jesus specifically which commandments he should keep and Jesus replied with 5 of the 10 commandments and a 6th that isn't part of the 10 commandments that I'm familar with. when the man replied that he had followed those I can only gather from the text that he was talking about those 5. Being a Jew you can assume that he knew all 10 when he asked Jesus, but he chose to ask Jesus about specific commandments. Why do i have to assume that jesus was talking about all ten when he didnt say all ten? He didnt say "and so on" after the ones he listed, and he added the part about loving your neighbor, I understand that neighbor loving could cover the 5 commandments that he listed, but he chose to list them anyway... It looks like he left out at least 4 intentionally.



Jesus shows the man that he hasn't, by loving his riches more than he loves Jesus. Jesus invites the man to deny those riches, to come and follow Him. Jesus invites the man to leave his fishing nets (and his old way of living) and come follow Jesus... becoming a fisher of men. Jesus invites the man to abandon his blindness (and his spiritual blindness) and come follow Jesus...


Hmmm, I guess I just dont see that in the text, he said "If you want to be perfect"...he initially told the fellow that he could enter life by keeping the commandments. Why would he say that,. To me it looks like this guy figures that he doesnt need to be perfect, he gets to keep his stuff and go to heaven just by keeping the commandments, he just looses out on treasures...which I understand, I dont particularly want to rule over anything in heaven or on earth or have a bunch of treasure if i'm already in heaven, seems like a moot advantage. anyway thats just me...but I just dont see that Jesus ever told the man that he would be denied heaven completely.



All three of these men had something that required faith in order to give up for Jesus. All three of them were invited to give it up to follow Him.


I dont understand why Jesus didnt just tell the guy that he couldnt get into heaven unless he gave up something to follow him, or just tell the guy that he must have faith in him...if thats what he meant he could have just said it. I guess they were in to abstrusities back then, but it makes it harder on people like me 2000 years later...:lol: i'm just complaining now.



"But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first."

This quote could definetely be applied to riches, but what of the Kingdom of God as a whole?

I guess many of the last will get some sort of treasure or a fancy position in heaven.


I do have questions
Why would anybody want treasure in heaven?
Do you want for anything in heaven?
Is heaven more awesome for some?
Do we have to live with some sort of class system in heaven i.e. the plebs and the upper crust of heaven?

Good morning Oscar!

Just a quick "fly-by" before I get ready for church...I wanted to try and give you some insight to the scripture that you've been discussing here ref. the "rich young ruler".

First, the "Ten Commandments" as we call them are divided into two categories: The first four are in reference to man's relationship with God, and the next six reference man's relationship with man.

This young man came to Jesus not with the attitude of "OK, I know I'm not good enough" but rather with the attitude of "Look how good I am".

Jesus, in his answer gave the commandments that He (Jesus) knew that the young man had kept...but it is significant that none of them are in the first 4, for no one has kept them (the first 4) perfectly.

In saying that the young man lacked one thing...and then telling him to sell all he had, give it to the poor and follow Jesus, our Lord was pointing out that there was something more important to the young man than God...his money.

Money had become an idol to that young man...anything that is "worshiped" or "placed in a higher priority" than God is in fact an idol. In this man's case it was money...for some it is career, for some it is intellect, for others it is a relationship...in any case the 1st commandment here was already broken to pieces; thus Jesus' response.

The "other commandment" that Jesus spoke (although we don't count them among the ten) is one that every Jew was familiar with, because it is found in Levitical law:

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

Remember that to the Jew, the "Ten Commandments" are but a part of the "Law of God".

Hope this helps some! :)

well, I haven't made any concrete plans, but I'll probably draw on it in situations where I find that I can make some use of it...that's pretty much how knowledge has worked for me so far.



well there are standard definitions for words, or we have standardized symbols and ever more symbols to describe those symbols...the underlying concepts though are often more elusive...this can be seen in our exchange. We have differing interpretations of what the definition of description "means". We could use words however we see fit, but that would begin to resemble communication less and less the more its done....but language is relative like that imo, although its also pretty good at what it does.



No, if God exists then God is not a series of concepts and symbols, but we use concepts and symbols in order to describe God. The symbols and concepts are a representation of God, God would be something else something more, something different. Oscar,

I hope you don't feel that I've sidetracked your thread with what you and I have been discussing. It had it's purpose. The point of the sunset illustration request was to show you how difficult it can be to describe (there's that word again) something that can be witnessed by many to someone who can't see it. No offense, but if that's the best you can do to describe a sunset, I don't see how you could get someone to understand what you were talking about. Yes, a sighted person could understand that description you gave because chances are we've all seen at least one sunset in our life. But a person who has been blind from birth, never having seen even colors, would require a little more than what you gave. Hence the questions I asked. It wasn't to trap you, it was to show you just how difficult it is.

What I see, is that you are approaching this from a logical perspective. That logic is what is considered by Christ to be "earthly" logic. Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

So if we tell you of earthly things, and you don't believe, how shall you believe if we told you of heavenly things?

Earthly logic is for earthly things. Faith is trust without reservations. Recognizing you don't completely understand it, but you trust Him to keep you safe. It's called in Christian circles "stepping out in faith". If you can't take a step in faith, then you will stay where you are, stuck in the mud.

But I want to show you something else that Jesus said.
Matthew 9:10-13

10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

You don't go to the doctor if you don't feel sick or have an injury. We do go once a year for a physical check up to make sure we have nothing hiding out in there so to speak. But unless we feel we need to go to a doctor we won't go.

This is why Jesus made the comment that I underlined. Right now you see no reason to need Him, so nothing we can say will change your mind. This is "self" righteousness and will get you no where. Unless or until, you recognize that you need Him, we can all talk until we are blue in the face. And you will only see the basic description of the sunset you gave.

What could you possibly understand about His logic? Self-righteousness means doing things YOUR way. He's asking you to trust Him and do things His way. Could you do that?

:lol: They don't have to use every part, and they definately dont have to use every part for human food, sow ear biodiesel would help save the environment and help save my palette....but okay man, enjoy your spam and your flat spam rounds and your spam cylinders. :pray:I'm glad you found this part funny as well. I know these things like spam are not healthy for you. I've had that can of spam for a little while now (a couple of weeks). I know it has a lot of grease or fat in it, and that just tears my stomach up at my age. But cooked on an open fire (campfire) it has a good flavor, and it would remind me of when I was camping up in Colorado back when I could eat this stuff. :lol: So there is some nostalgia involved here. :D

Maybe you could offer some insight on why Jesus chose to first say that he could enter life if he kept the commandments. Did he say that because he knew it was impossible for the fellow to have kept them? Why did he choose to use the term "perfect"?

These are some deep questions, Oscar.
I will do my best.

At the time of Jesus, Israel had been following the old Covenant – which was a set of laws describing how to keep the Ten Commandments.
It was not a perfect solution to SIN, since it required continuing animal offerings.

This law was to get people to understand sin and how it separated them from a holy God.

Jesus was in the process of bringing about the New Covenant. One which established forgiveness (as if offence had never occurred) - through faith.
God said (concerning this new covenant):

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:31-33

This new covenant is adhered to by faith and not by works or deeds. Good deeds are not enough to grant admission to the kingdom.
One must trust in the sufficiency of what happened on the cross.

In effect, Jesus was telling him to leave the old covenant with it’s letter of the law approach and follow Him in the Spirit of the law.

God desires people who seek him. Who are willing to at first contemplate the truth and a real relationship with Him.
Many in Jesus time (and today) many are unwilling to do or think differently other than how they were taught by people,

The rich man not only desired his wealth above all else, he was unwilling to change and fully seek God.

[To my understanding] The “Law” in it’s general sense, means the Ten Commandments. It is not impossible to refrain from breaking them with diligence.


However, it only solves the problem of individual sins. It does NOT solve the problem of the condition of SIN.
That is why the Ten Commandments alone are not enough.


The people got caught up in the application of the law and did not comprehend its intent.
There ore over 600 rules to abide by and that is pretty much impossible to keep 100% of the time.
On top of that, the Pharisees added a ton of other man-made rules and regulation in minutia to further complicate things.
This is called “The Talmud”. I think it is fitting that it contains the word “mud”.




As for “being” perfect – it is the future imperative tense of the verb. Meaning ‘to become’ or ‘to strive to become’ perfect.

It’s a life long pursuit and process – ever in motion.



Non-Christians (and many Christians) assume that Jesus spoke in parables and figurative language to illustrate his points.
However, He spoke this way so that only those who pursued truth and wisdom from God, might come to understand.

Jesus often began by saying: If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. Mar 4:23

And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Mar 4:33,34

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Luk 8:10

This was to fulfill what was written of Him.

Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.
Ezekiel 12:2

God desires they who desire Him and seek after Him.

‘Hope this helped,
Richard

Oscar,

I hope you don't feel that I've sidetracked your thread with what you and I have been discussing. It had it's purpose. The point of the sunset illustration request was to show you how difficult it can be to describe (there's that word again) something that can be witnessed by many to someone who can't see it. No offense, but if that's the best you can do to describe a sunset, I don't see how you could get someone to understand what you were talking about. Yes, a sighted person could understand that description you gave because chances are we've all seen at least one sunset in our life. But a person who has been blind from birth, never having seen even colors, would require a little more than what you gave. Hence the questions I asked. It wasn't to trap you, it was to show you just how difficult it is.

What I see, is that you are approaching this from a logical perspective. That logic is what is considered by Christ to be "earthly" logic. Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

So if we tell you of earthly things, and you don't believe, how shall you believe if we told you of heavenly things?

Earthly logic is for earthly things. Faith is trust without reservations. Recognizing you don't completely understand it, but you trust Him to keep you safe. It's called in Christian circles "stepping out in faith". If you can't take a step in faith, then you will stay where you are, stuck in the mud.

But I want to show you something else that Jesus said.
Matthew 9:10-13

10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

You don't go to the doctor if you don't feel sick or have an injury. We do go once a year for a physical check up to make sure we have nothing hiding out in there so to speak. But unless we feel we need to go to a doctor we won't go.

This is why Jesus made the comment that I underlined. Right now you see no reason to need Him, so nothing we can say will change your mind. This is "self" righteousness and will get you no where. Unless or until, you recognize that you need Him, we can all talk until we are blue in the face. And you will only see the basic description of the sunset you gave.

What could you possibly understand about His logic? Self-righteousness means doing things YOUR way. He's asking you to trust Him and do things His way. Could you do that?
I'm glad you found this part funny as well. I know these things like spam are not healthy for you. I've had that can of spam for a little while now (a couple of weeks). I know it has a lot of grease or fat in it, and that just tears my stomach up at my age. But cooked on an open fire (campfire) it has a good flavor, and it would remind me of when I was camping up in Colorado back when I could eat this stuff. :lol: So there is some nostalgia involved here. :D

Senor Kipling,

Think of it in terms of a streogram...

http://www.zebtoonz.com/Gallery/Stereograms/slides/Stereograms02.jpg

...have you ever tried to explain how to find the image(this one is of Christ on the Cross) to someone that can't/refuses to see it? Using the normal rules of 'seeing'(earthly logic) doesn't work with stereograms...you have to look beyond the "stuff and junk"(;)) and there you will find Him.

And before you go and pick apart the finer points of the analogy, please spare us old friend, that's why they call it an analogy...just trying to help you see the stereogram, that's all.:P

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.:hmm:

Here is a webpage that better clarifies my point(i.e. long answers are not my specialty;))

http://snapshotsofgod.com/magiceye.htm

Good morning Oscar!

Just a quick "fly-by" before I get ready for church...I wanted to try and give you some insight to the scripture that you've been discussing here ref. the "rich young ruler".

First, the "Ten Commandments" as we call them are divided into two categories: The first four are in reference to man's relationship with God, and the next six reference man's relationship with man.

This young man came to Jesus not with the attitude of "OK, I know I'm not good enough" but rather with the attitude of "Look how good I am".

Jesus, in his answer gave the commandments that He (Jesus) knew that the young man had kept...but it is significant that none of them are in the first 4, for no one has kept them (the first 4) perfectly.

In saying that the young man lacked one thing...and then telling him to sell all he had, give it to the poor and follow Jesus, our Lord was pointing out that there was something more important to the young man than God...his money.

Money had become an idol to that young man...anything that is "worshiped" or "placed in a higher priority" than God is in fact an idol. In this man's case it was money...for some it is career, for some it is intellect, for others it is a relationship...in any case the 1st commandment here was already broken to pieces; thus Jesus' response.

The "other commandment" that Jesus spoke (although we don't count them among the ten) is one that every Jew was familiar with, because it is found in Levitical law:

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

Remember that to the Jew, the "Ten Commandments" are but a part of the "Law of God".

Hope this helps some! :)

Okay then, thanks for your post

Oscar,

I hope you don't feel that I've sidetracked your thread with what you and I have been discussing. It had it's purpose. The point of the sunset illustration request was to show you how difficult it can be to describe (there's that word again) something that can be witnessed by many to someone who can't see it. No offense, but if that's the best you can do to describe a sunset, I don't see how you could get someone to understand what you were talking about. Yes, a sighted person could understand that description you gave because chances are we've all seen at least one sunset in our life. But a person who has been blind from birth, never having seen even colors, would require a little more than what you gave. Hence the questions I asked. It wasn't to trap you, it was to show you just how difficult it is.


No problem man, i'm all about following tangents. well, i'm not going to pretend that I didn't have any idea what you were getting at. I just happen disagree with your premise, or what I believe your premise is. My desciption wasnt the finest possible, more poetic and imaginative men than myself have written them, but they all have one thing in common... they are linguistic representations and imo do not posess the ablility to make a blind or seeing person see that sunset a it was originolly seen...at best we can envision our own analogue of what a person describes. In my opinion; to assume that with a good enough description that a person can convey enough information to another person that they can see what that the original person saw exactly how they saw it, rests on the idea that a person can actually be another person. Its always going to be a filtered representation, the original is a filtered representation...but anyway point taken.....anyway admit it, my sunset description brought a single tear to your eye with its unparalled insight, surely I captured the very essence of dusk!






What I see, is that you are approaching this from a logical perspective. That logic is what is considered by Christ to be "earthly" logic. Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

So if we tell you of earthly things, and you don't believe, how shall you believe if we told you of heavenly things?

Earthly logic is for earthly things. Faith is trust without reservations. Recognizing you don't completely understand it, but you trust Him to keep you safe. It's called in Christian circles "stepping out in faith". If you can't take a step in faith, then you will stay where you are, stuck in the mud.

But I want to show you something else that Jesus said.
Matthew 9:10-13

10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

You don't go to the doctor if you don't feel sick or have an injury. We do go once a year for a physical check up to make sure we have nothing hiding out in there so to speak. But unless we feel we need to go to a doctor we won't go.

This is why Jesus made the comment that I underlined. Right now you see no reason to need Him, so nothing we can say will change your mind. This is "self" righteousness and will get you no where. Unless or until, you recognize that you need Him, we can all talk until we are blue in the face. And you will only see the basic description of the sunset you gave.

What could you possibly understand about His logic? Self-righteousness means doing things YOUR way. He's asking you to trust Him and do things His way. Could you do that?


I guess I've been thinking about this, I've been building something...manipulating information I guess. I don't think that Christianity (as i've come to understand it) lacks logic or reason, once you can accumulate enough of the rules...or figure out the way that you must think within its system it often will makes sense. People sometimes disagree with me here when I call it the Christian model, but to me it is a model. It has its rules and its constants and methodology, It is an explaination of the universe....but youre right I guess I am self righteous, I think that to an extent you must be too. There is a point where you must trust that your mind is capable of understanding, you must trust that you are trusting in God. It is self righteous to believe that you understand what God is talking about in a given verse, that you understand the concepts and the relationships between those ideas, yourself and existance. You have to trust that you know what the words mean, and you must trust that the writers of the Bible didnt fabricate the bible as a whole or in part. There is an entire chain of things that you must trust about yourself and humanity and existance in order to trust God. Sometimes I get the impression that we dont actually include ourselves when when it comes to trusting God. How bothersome this faith thing is to me.





I'm glad you found this part funny as well. I know these things like spam are not healthy for you. I've had that can of spam for a little while now (a couple of weeks). I know it has a lot of grease or fat in it, and that just tears my stomach up at my age. But cooked on an open fire (campfire) it has a good flavor, and it would remind me of when I was camping up in Colorado back when I could eat this stuff. :lol: So there is some nostalgia involved here.:D

i've never been to colorado proper, I have been to Shiprock and 4 corners though, so I guess have. But as an east-coaster, I had never really seen mountains that werent covered in foliage...its amazing country out there. lamb reminds me of those times, because I was staying with some Native Americans, and they killed a lamb for the feast, those folks love lamb...and they used every part of it...except the bones I guess...even though they may have used them for something...I didnt ask what happened to the bones. I had alot of lamb during that time.

These are some deep questions, Oscar.
I will do my best.

At the time of Jesus, Israel had been following the old Covenant – which was a set of laws describing how to keep the Ten Commandments.
It was not a perfect solution to SIN, since it required continuing animal offerings.

This law was to get people to understand sin and how it separated them from a holy God.

Jesus was in the process of bringing about the New Covenant. One which established forgiveness (as if offence had never occurred) - through faith.
God said (concerning this new covenant):

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:31-33

This new covenant is adhered to by faith and not by works or deeds. Good deeds are not enough to grant admission to the kingdom.
One must trust in the sufficiency of what happened on the cross.

In effect, Jesus was telling him to leave the old covenant with it’s letter of the law approach and follow Him in the Spirit of the law.

God desires people who seek him. Who are willing to at first contemplate the truth and a real relationship with Him.
Many in Jesus time (and today) many are unwilling to do or think differently other than how they were taught by people,

The rich man not only desired his wealth above all else, he was unwilling to change and fully seek God.

[To my understanding] The “Law” in it’s general sense, means the Ten Commandments. It is not impossible to refrain from breaking them with diligence.


However, it only solves the problem of individual sins. It does NOT solve the problem of the condition of SIN.
That is why the Ten Commandments alone are not enough.


The people got caught up in the application of the law and did not comprehend its intent.
There ore over 600 rules to abide by and that is pretty much impossible to keep 100% of the time.
On top of that, the Pharisees added a ton of other man-made rules and regulation in minutia to further complicate things.
This is called “The Talmud”. I think it is fitting that it contains the word “mud”.




As for “being” perfect – it is the future imperative tense of the verb. Meaning ‘to become’ or ‘to strive to become’ perfect.

It’s a life long pursuit and process – ever in motion.



Non-Christians (and many Christians) assume that Jesus spoke in parables and figurative language to illustrate his points.
However, He spoke this way so that only those who pursued truth and wisdom from God, might come to understand.

Jesus often began by saying: If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. Mar 4:23

And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Mar 4:33,34

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Luk 8:10

This was to fulfill what was written of Him.

Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.
Ezekiel 12:2

God desires they who desire Him and seek after Him.

‘Hope this helped,
Richard

thank you Richard, that does clear this up for me somewhat.

Senor Kipling,

Think of it in terms of a streogram...

http://www.zebtoonz.com/Gallery/Stereograms/slides/Stereograms02.jpg

...have you ever tried to explain how to find the image(this one is of Christ on the Cross) to someone that can't/refuses to see it? Using the normal rules of 'seeing'(earthly logic) doesn't work with stereograms...you have to look beyond the "stuff and junk"(;)) and there you will find Him.

And before you go and pick apart the finer points of the analogy, please spare us old friend, that's why they call it an analogy...just trying to help you see the stereogram, that's all.:P

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.:hmm:


So are you saying that if I put the Bible really close to my face, cross my eyes and then slowly pull it away that I'll see Jesus? okay you had to see that coming but seriously, thanks I see your point.

So are you saying that if I put the Bible really close to my face, cross my eyes and then slowly pull it away that I'll see Jesus? okay you had to see that coming.LOL! I would expect nothing less!:D

I didn't want to spin your thread off (haha spin... thread... haha) but I'd like to speak about your questions. You've been given many accurate answers, using different pieces of Scripture, but lets try connecting those pieces of Scripture.

You asked



Why would anybody want treasure in Heaven?


Treasure on earth is temporary. Treasure in Heaven is eternal. The treasure that we have here on earth (money, fame etc.) is worthless in comparison with the treasure that we have in Heaven (Jesus Christ). Money and fame will one day fade away, but His love exists always.



"Do not lay up for yourselves treasure on earth, where moth and rust destroy and theives break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust destroys, and theives do not break in and steal."
Matthew 6:19-20


The man in the passage that we discussed, the rich young ruler, loved his earthly (temporary) treasure more than his Heavenly (eternal) treasure. Jesus calls us to place Him before all things, before anything on this earth. That He may be the center of our lives as our true love.

You asked what you must do to be a Christian.



And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’” He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
Luke 10:25-28


God asks us to love perfectly. God says that if we do this, we will live! The truth is, though, that we have all failed to do this. That's the purpose of the Old Testament Law, to show us that none of us are perfect. We are all sinners, in desperate need of a Savior if we are to live. As a result of our sin, none of us will live.




"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:23

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 6:23


Death was our debt because of our sin. Jesus took that death upon Himself, paying the price for us. All that remains is that we allow Him to do this, we ask for His sacrifice and His blood to cover our transgressions. He did this so that He can forgive anyone who comes to Him of their sins, and grant them eternal life.

If we truly desire this life in Christ, we will turn from our sins (repent) and place Him as the center of our lives. That is, if we value the eternal treasure that He is, we will abandon the lesser things of this world when called to... in order to be closer to Him.

What do you have to do to be a Christian? Nothing. Christ did it for you. Accept the gift of eternal life, turn from your sins and love Him.

love
Chris

I didn't want to spin your thread off (haha spin... thread... haha) but I'd like to speak about your questions. You've been given many accurate answers, using different pieces of Scripture, but lets try connecting those pieces of Scripture.

You asked



Treasure on earth is temporary. Treasure in Heaven is eternal. The treasure that we have here on earth (money, fame etc.) is worthless in comparison with the treasure that we have in Heaven (Jesus Christ). Money and fame will one day fade away, but His love exists always.



The man in the passage that we discussed, the rich young ruler, loved his earthly (temporary) treasure more than his Heavenly (eternal) treasure. Jesus calls us to place Him before all things, before anything on this earth. That He may be the center of our lives as our true love.

You asked what you must do to be a Christian.



God asks us to love perfectly. God says that if we do this, we will live! The truth is, though, that we have all failed to do this. That's the purpose of the Old Testament Law, to show us that none of us are perfect. We are all sinners, in desperate need of a Savior if we are to live. As a result of our sin, none of us will live.




Death was our debt because of our sin. Jesus took that death upon Himself, paying the price for us. All that remains is that we allow Him to do this, we ask for His sacrifice and His blood to cover our transgressions. He did this so that He can forgive anyone who comes to Him of their sins, and grant them eternal life.

If we truly desire this life in Christ, we will turn from our sins (repent) and place Him as the center of our lives. That is, if we value the eternal treasure that He is, we will abandon the lesser things of this world when called to... in order to be closer to Him.

What do you have to do to be a Christian? Nothing. Christ did it for you. Accept the gift of eternal life, turn from your sins and love Him.

love
Chris

many hanks thanks Chris.

many hanks thanks Chris.

Oscar

I'm grateful to you, for your interest in our comments, but it was He that put us here to answer your questions. It was He that has been drawing you here. It's His love. My only request is that you prayerfully consider what you've discovered in this thread. It's the difference between true love and passing treasures. It's the difference between life and death.

by His love
Chris

Oscar

I'm grateful to you, for your interest in our comments, but it was He that put us here to answer your questions. It was He that has been drawing you here. It's His love. My only request is that you prayerfully consider what you've discovered in this thread. It's the difference between true love and passing treasures. It's the difference between life and death.

by His love
Chris

I consider it, I do.

Hi Oscar,

Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner, I've been a little busy and time was limited, and my high speed internet was offline until last night. I finally got my antenna lined up on the satellite. :)

No problem man, i'm all about following tangents. well, i'm not going to pretend that I didn't have any idea what you were getting at. I just happen disagree with your premise, or what I believe your premise is. My desciption wasnt the finest possible, more poetic and imaginative men than myself have written them, but they all have one thing in common... they are linguistic representations and imo do not posess the ablility to make a blind or seeing person see that sunset a it was originolly seen...at best we can envision our own analogue of what a person describes. In my opinion; to assume that with a good enough description that a person can convey enough information to another person that they can see what that the original person saw exactly how they saw it, rests on the idea that a person can actually be another person. Its always going to be a filtered representation, the original is a filtered representation...but anyway point taken.....anyway admit it, my sunset description brought a single tear to your eye with its unparalled insight, surely I captured the very essence of dusk!Oscar as I said earlier about the "description" you are here wanting us to "paint a picture" that you can understand and see with your "mind's eye" (so to speak) about God. I do admit your description is accurate to a degree, but leaves many questions unanswered. Just as you are wanting to see God the way we do, I wanted to see the sunset the way you did. That was all. If the description you gave was the way you see a sunset, then that's the way you see it. Some see more.

I guess I've been thinking about this, I've been building something...manipulating information I guess. I don't think that Christianity (as i've come to understand it) lacks logic or reason, once you can accumulate enough of the rules...or figure out the way that you must think within its system it often will makes sense. People sometimes disagree with me here when I call it the Christian model, but to me it is a model. It has its rules and its constants and methodology, It is an explaination of the universe....but youre right I guess I am self righteous, I think that to an extent you must be too. There is a point where you must trust that your mind is capable of understanding, you must trust that you are trusting in God. It is self righteous to believe that you understand what God is talking about in a given verse, that you understand the concepts and the relationships between those ideas, yourself and existance. You have to trust that you know what the words mean, and you must trust that the writers of the Bible didnt fabricate the bible as a whole or in part. There is an entire chain of things that you must trust about yourself and humanity and existance in order to trust God. Sometimes I get the impression that we dont actually include ourselves when when it comes to trusting God. How bothersome this faith thing is to me.Christianity is not a model. Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me. (John 14:6) Christianity is a way of life that will bring everlasting life. (John 3:16)

You trust certain people in certain areas of your life. We trust God in all aspects of ours. IOW, you have faith in certains things, such as the map you used to get to Shiprock NM. We walk by faith, not by sight. (2 Corinthians 5:7) Just as you trusted that map to get you to Shiprock, we trust Him to get us where we are going.

So to say Christianity is a model, would be like saying unbelief/skepticism is a model as well. You believe what you believe based on the information you have received. That's why I asked you, "how long have you been studying psychology?" If everything is a model then who's the model builder? Man isn't capable of seeing heavenly things the way God would, so how did man come up with a model of God? The creation can't know more than it's creator can it?

We do include ourselves in the equation, but know that we don't always understand at the moment "why" He may want us to do this or that. The end result though, is what He had in mind for the situation at hand. It was for the greater good of all concerned, not just us as an individual.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

If only man had written the Scriptures we call the Bible, it would have been written differently. There are insights in the Scriptures that no man could have had. Jesus knew what His crucifixion would do, just as He knew the impact every word and action would have. If Mary had bore an illigetimate child inside her, the scandal would have died after a few years and you and I wouldn't be here today talking about Jesus. If Jesus had not been resurrected, you and I wouldn't be here talking about this today. It would have been long forgotten after 2008 years. But that's not the case is it?


i've never been to colorado proper, I have been to Shiprock and 4 corners though, so I guess have. But as an east-coaster, I had never really seen mountains that werent covered in foliage...its amazing country out there. lamb reminds me of those times, because I was staying with some Native Americans, and they killed a lamb for the feast, those folks love lamb...and they used every part of it...except the bones I guess...even though they may have used them for something...I didnt ask what happened to the bones. I had alot of lamb during that time.It's too bad you didn't get over into Colorado. There is some amazing scenary there. Honestly, it's a good place to go to admire His Creation, as well as other places on the planet are.

There is a "natural" optical illusion on interstate 70 going East toward Denver from Rifle to Glenwood Springs. As you head East (at one point) you appear to be going downhill and the water in the river next to the road is going uphill, unless you look in the rearview mirror and see that you are going uphill instead or notice the strain on the engine, you get the idea that water in the river is defying the laws of gravity.

There are "critters" called voles that rustle the leaves as the move underneath them. At night they can sound larger than they really are, just due to the number of them that might be nearby. And the skunks sound as big as bears when they get into your trash that you accidentally left low enough for them to get into. :rolleyes: :lol:

Anyway, I hope one day you can get to Colorado or even Montana. Montana is beautiful as well, and the water in some of the lakes there is so clear you can see the bottom as far out as you can see, before the reflection of the sky obscures the view. Glacier National Park is worth the visit if you ever get up that way. :) But take my advice, no matter what time of the year it is, take a jacket! :lol: If you don't you'll wish you had. But then again, if you do, you will be taking it on faith that I know what I'm talking about. So you have a dilemma on your hands here. ;)

Hi Oscar,

Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner, I've been a little busy and time was limited, and my high speed internet was offline until last night. I finally got my antenna lined up on the satellite. :)
Oscar as I said earlier about the "description" you are here wanting us to "paint a picture" that you can understand and see with your "mind's eye" (so to speak) about God. I do admit your description is accurate to a degree, but leaves many questions unanswered. Just as you are wanting to see God the way we do, I wanted to see the sunset the way you did. That was all. If the description you gave was the way you see a sunset, then that's the way you see it. Some see more.
Christianity is not a model. Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me. (John 14:6) Christianity is a way of life that will bring everlasting life. (John 3:16)


You trust certain people in certain areas of your life. We trust God in all aspects of ours. IOW, you have faith in certains things, such as the map you used to get to Shiprock NM. We walk by faith, not by sight. (2 Corinthians 5:7) Just as you trusted that map to get you to Shiprock, we trust Him to get us where we are going.

So to say Christianity is a model, would be like saying unbelief/skepticism is a model as well. You believe what you believe based on the information you have received. That's why I asked you, "how long have you been studying psychology?" If everything is a model then who's the model builder? Man isn't capable of seeing heavenly things the way God would, so how did man come up with a model of God? The creation can't know more than it's creator can it?


if God exists then he created the christian model for people to understand what he felt that we needed to understand...Christianity is an explanation of the world...hence i call it a model, it might be true, but its still a model...it is not the universe, it uses analogues and symbols to explain the universe, but it is not the universe...its a description, and instructions...a model. If God does not exist then people are the builders of the models, then we are explaining and describing things to ourselves. Yes skeptics and unbelievers have their models as well, I never tried to imply hat they didnt. We are observing the universe and coming up with rules and explanations and descriptions. I do believe that all i perceive can only be an analogue or a model of what actually is ...we only have certain sensing tools, bolstered by our technology and our mathematics, but still limited to our sensing tools...yes, I think its all a model , because we cannot grasp the world as it is as a whole, finite memory, finite senses, and finite mobility within spacetime prevent us from apprehending anything more than a model. so, when i say model, i'm not saying that the universe is a model, but we can only perceive little bits over finite periods, which we use to construct our reality...the universe is not what we see, we see and hear and feel tiny sections of frequency ranges we smell and taste tiny amounts of molecules,and our minds, the interpreter... that is not all there is to the universe, but it all we can use to define it...and i guess in your case a spirit as well...okay, so it should be clear now that i'm not saying God (if he exists) is just a model, but we can only percieve some portion of him..dig?





We do include ourselves in the equation, but know that we don't always understand at the moment "why" He may want us to do this or that. The end result though, is what He had in mind for the situation at hand. It was for the greater good of all concerned, not just us as an individual.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


well, okay




If only man had written the Scriptures we call the Bible, it would have been written differently. There are insights in the Scriptures that no man could have had. Jesus knew what His crucifixion would do, just as He knew the impact every word and action would have. If Mary had bore an illigetimate child inside her, the scandal would have died after a few years and you and I wouldn't be here today talking about Jesus. If Jesus had not been resurrected, you and I wouldn't be here talking about this today. It would have been long forgotten after 2008 years. But that's not the case is it?


men write all kinds of things that last for thousands of years, nobody seems to have forgotten other major religions. Some of them even seem to be taking part of the market share. There are many insghtful things in every religion i've ever taken any time to read a little about...Christianity has not differntiated itself to me in that area. so plenty of people believe things that to you clearly believe didnt happen and have no divine basis...somewhere there is a muslim board with a skeptic just like me having this very same conversation...heck maybe it is me.



It's too bad you didn't get over into Colorado. There is some amazing scenary there. Honestly, it's a good place to go to admire His Creation, as well as other places on the planet are.

There is a "natural" optical illusion on interstate 70 going East toward Denver from Rifle to Glenwood Springs. As you head East (at one point) you appear to be going downhill and the water in the river next to the road is going uphill, unless you look in the rearview mirror and see that you are going uphill instead or notice the strain on the engine, you get the idea that water in the river is defying the laws of gravity.

There are "critters" called voles that rustle the leaves as the move underneath them. At night they can sound larger than they really are, just due to the number of them that might be nearby. And the skunks sound as big as bears when they get into your trash that you accidentally left low enough for them to get into. :rolleyes: :lol:

Anyway, I hope one day you can get to Colorado or even Montana. Montana is beautiful as well, and the water in some of the lakes there is so clear you can see the bottom as far out as you can see, before the reflection of the sky obscures the view. Glacier National Park is worth the visit if you ever get up that way. :) But take my advice, no matter what time of the year it is, take a jacket! :lol: If you don't you'll wish you had. But then again, if you do, you will be taking it on faith that I know what I'm talking about. So you have a dilemma on your hands here. ;)
[/quote]

yeah, I definately want to get there one day, I was thinking of trying to find a job out there when I finish school , but with everything the way it is, it doesnt look so good, thats not really a tech job rich area..especially now. Anyway sounds awsome, thanks

Hello Oscar
I wish I had time to delve into everything you stirred up with your question looks like a fascinating debate.
I do not know this but I doubt that there is a muslim equivilant of this board, or that there is much similarity between that religion and having faith in Jesus as Lord and Saviour. My limited understanding leads me to believe that religion would not allow or engage in such free discussions as those that Christians might get into. The mysterys of God and his Grace are alot to try and wrap our minds around, maybe we can't. Yet our hearts can embrace Him through faith!
Gotta go back to the grindstone, be Blessed Stan

if God exists then he created the christian model for people to understand what he felt that we needed to understand...Christianity is an explanation of the world...hence i call it a model, it might be true, but its still a model...it is not the universe, it uses analogues and symbols to explain the universe, but it is not the universe...its a description, and instructions...a model. If God does not exist then people are the builders of the models, then we are explaining and describing things to ourselves. Yes skeptics and unbelievers have their models as well, I never tried to imply hat they didnt. We are observing the universe and coming up with rules and explanations and descriptions. I do believe that all i perceive can only be an analogue or a model of what actually is ...we only have certain sensing tools, bolstered by our technology and our mathematics, but still limited to our sensing tools...yes, I think its all a model , because we cannot grasp the world as it is as a whole, finite memory, finite senses, and finite mobility within spacetime prevent us from apprehending anything more than a model. so, when i say model, i'm not saying that the universe is a model, but we can only perceive little bits over finite periods, which we use to construct our reality...the universe is not what we see, we see and hear and feel tiny sections of frequency ranges we smell and taste tiny amounts of molecules,and our minds, the interpreter... that is not all there is to the universe, but it all we can use to define it...and i guess in your case a spirit as well...okay, so it should be clear now that i'm not saying God (if he exists) is just a model, but we can only percieve some portion of him..dig?

there's an old saying in the bible among the ancient prophets, "who can know the mind of God?" The same god that created the heavens and the earth. Definately no mortal man.





men write all kinds of things that last for thousands of years, nobody seems to have forgotten other major religions. Some of them even seem to be taking part of the market share. There are many insghtful things in every religion i've ever taken any time to read a little about...Christianity has not differntiated itself to me in that area. so plenty of people believe things that to you clearly believe didnt happen and have no divine basis...somewhere there is a muslim board with a skeptic just like me having this very same conversation...heck maybe it is me.




Not all men are sent from God.

Hello Oscar
I wish I had time to delve into everything you stirred up with your question looks like a fascinating debate.
I do not know this but I doubt that there is a muslim equivilant of this board, or that there is much similarity between that religion and having faith in Jesus as Lord and Saviour. My limited understanding leads me to believe that religion would not allow or engage in such free discussions as those that Christians might get into. The mysterys of God and his Grace are alot to try and wrap our minds around, maybe we can't. Yet our hearts can embrace Him through faith!
Gotta go back to the grindstone, be Blessed Stan

hmm, i'd really be interested in seeing what you have to inject into the conversation when you have the time.

Moderator Edit: Oscar did reply to your question about Muslim message boards and he is correct that they are out there. Unfortunately, the rules prohibit the link because it is a site that promotes the Muslim religion.

Thank you for your understanding.

Tanya

there's an old saying in the bible among the ancient prophets, "who can know the mind of God?" The same god that created the heavens and the earth. Definately no mortal man.





Not all men are sent from God.

do you mind expounding upon your statements?