Ok well i have been wondering what the phrase in the Bible "perfect word of God" referred to. I have always believed that it literally meant the word of God (The Bible), but i have seen in various places of people referring to the "Word of God" as Jesus Christ. Though there are many stunning things in the Bible, there are also things that appear to be not so perfect or just a little bit off...mostly in prophecy and of course there is the list of contradictions that people claim are in the Bible. So maybe God never said the Bible was perfect, but His son?

If you could be more specific about what you believe is inaccurate, I think we could greatly assist you. Personally I know of no inaccuracies, and I have studied a lot of the bible in it's original language. I would really like the opportunity to share what I have discovered.

The idea of Jesus being the "Word" comes from John 1. Jesus was God's revelation of Himself to us in human form. The Bible is God's revelation of Himself to us in written form. So they are both the "Word" of God.

The word "Perfect" means complete. And that would be relative to the point of view of the one saying it to a certain extent. To me it's the completed scriptures.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


Just my take on it.

Well ya know, as i said before the infamous list of inconsistencies in the Bible. Here is one popular list someone gave me http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html), though it doesn't shake my faith too much, as a lot of them are taken out of context and easily explained but some of them might make ya think just a little. It is just good to have a good argument for the idea that God's word is perfect but i wasn't sure if it referred to the actual word (Bible) or to Jesus Christ....Thanks for the input

In II Sam 21:8, Some translations say that David took the five sons of Saul's daughter Merab. Other translations translate it as the five sons of Michal. The difference is important. Why? Because II Samuel 6:23 tells us that Michal had no children before she died. My bible says michal so it is indeed a bit of a contradiction. So that's an example of what i mean.

In II Sam 21:8, Some translations say that David took the five sons of Saul's daughter Merab. Other translations translate it as the five sons of Michal. The difference is important. Why? Because II Samuel 6:23 tells us that Michal had no children before she died. My bible says michal so it is indeed a bit of a contradiction. So that's an example of what i mean.So look it up in an original language lexicon and make up your own mind how it should read. I use the TNIV translation myself, but there is certainly more than one place where I disagree with the translators. That doesn't negate the authenticity of the original-language inspired Word of God one bit.

Ok well i have been wondering what the phrase in the Bible "perfect word of God" referred to. I have always believed that it literally meant the word of God (The Bible), but i have seen in various places of people referring to the "Word of God" as Jesus Christ. Though there are many stunning things in the Bible, there are also things that appear to be not so perfect or just a little bit off...mostly in prophecy and of course there is the list of contradictions that people claim are in the Bible. So maybe God never said the Bible was perfect, but His son? The Word manifest in the flesh is perfect, the Word manifest in words in a book is perfect. The Word of God was, is and forever will be...perfect.

The bible is Spiritually perfect, but it is not perfect in textual facts.

For a quick example 2 Samuel chapter 21:19 says that Elhanan son of Jair, of Bethlehem, killed Goliath of Gath, the shaft of whose spear was like a weavers boom.

But didn't the bible say in 1 Samuel chapter 17 that David killed Goliath?

In certain places the text is the wrong way around, answers are given, then the questions are asked. In the gospels events happen in different orders.

The bible is not always a chronological history, rather a God inspired vessel for human's to find God and grow Spiritually.

The bible is perfect for it's God given Spiritual purpose. All of the errors non believers list are misunderstandings, and can be lovingly explained to genuine seekers of Jesus Christ.

Emanate - you will need to start a new topic. Answers are meant to be directed to the original poster in Christian Answer. As a Christian yourself, i'm assuming you wish to grow and have this lovingly explained? Not attack the bible?




BIG SofTy SofT outside, bible core. :pp

"And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam." - 2 Samuel 21:19

Howdy, Blueaccord19!!
Welcome to Bibleforums!! :hug:
It's great to have you here!! :pp :pp :pp

The phrase "perfect word of God" doesn't actually occur in the Bible so far as I know; at any rate, not in the King James Translation, which is the easiest one for me to search. But your question contains a number of good insights and queries that I'd like to address anyhow.

The word "perfect" in contemporary English tends to mean "flawless"; while in older English it means something more like "complete", as The Parson so rightly noted. When Jesus (in Matthew 5:48) says "Be perfect, even as your Father in heaven in perfect" the greek word translated "perfect" -- telios -- means complete, wholehearted, or fully accomplishing its end, or something of that sort. Jesus' main point here -- and the whole of Matt. 5 -- is not "be sure you never make a mistake" but rather more like "be whole-hearted in the goodness and rightness of your life" and in your obedience to God and imitation of His ways -- or even "full of love for all".

The perfection, the wonderfulness, of the Bible doesn't consist (IMO) in a fussy concern for getting everything exact. It consists of the fact that the Bible gives us a deep, correct, authoritative understanding of what God is communicating to us. Even though the Bible is (IMO) free from errors, that is not the basic element of its "perfection" -- but rather I think that it is so wonderful because the whole is an incredible deep polyphonic text which guides us with a depth and balance and reliability that one can find no where else. So, to me, contradictions aren't a big problem.

Many contradictions in the bible, actually, are deliberate, in my view. They are expressing a complex thought that has various aspects. Thus one Proverb (26:4) says "Do not reply to a fool according to his folly, lest you become like him" and the next verse (16:5) says "Do reply to a fool according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own eyes." I John 1:7 says "Beloved, I am not writing you a new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning"; but I John 1:8 says, "Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is shining." Much language in the bible uses irony, paradox, parable, and other kinds of devices to bring out the fullness of its complete message.

However, most fundamentally in your post you ask about whether "the Word of God" refers to Jesus Christ (rather than the Bible). The dominent meaning of "The Word of God" -- IMO -- is, as you say, Christ Jesus. John writes in his Gospel
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was, in the beginning, with God. All things were made by him, and without him was not one thing made, of all that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of humanity. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has never been able to grasp it. The subsequent verses make it clear that by "the Word" John is refering to the man Jesus. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, ... full of grace and truth." John is presenting Jesus Christ as the Eternal Word, who was with God in the beginning, and who is, himself, God.

Christ is the Word of God in the sense that He is the full expression of Who God Is, the fullness of communication and interaction, the meaning and logic and rationality of all things, the principle of being that forms and governs all things, the utterance of what is in the heart of God. The word "Word" is of course the Greek "Logos" whose meanings cover a somewhat larger semantic range than the English word "Word".

It is God -- one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- whom we adore, who made and governs all things, Who is the source of existence, love, life, goodness, beauty and truth. We worship God, not the Bible: and because Jesus Christ is God (God the Son) we worship Him as part of our worship of God.

The Bible is very important, however, for it gives us the true, authentic words of God to us, which He has revealed, in order that we may know Him.

Anyhow, that'd be my best attempt to answer your valuable questions!

In friendship,
Scruffy Kid

Welcome to the forum Blueaccord19, we're glad to have you here. You can post freely in this forum and in this thread. I have restored your posts in this thread that had been previously deleted. Please read the rules so you understand how the forum works.

This thread is now in the Christians Answer forum where the rules are a little different than in other forums. Please everyone make sure you are familiar with these rules which you can read in the sticky at the top of the forum. I did have to delete just a few posts by others that do not address Blueaccord19. From this point, please address all your replies to Blueaccord19. Of course Blue, you can answer the others' replies to your post. I hope this clears up any confusion that may have resulted from the shuffling around of your thread.

though it doesn't shake my faith too much, Can you tell us about your 'faith'?

Well ya know, as i said before the infamous list of inconsistencies in the Bible. Here is one popular list someone gave me http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html), though it doesn't shake my faith too much, as a lot of them are taken out of context and easily explained but some of them might make ya think just a little. It is just good to have a good argument for the idea that God's word is perfect but i wasn't sure if it referred to the actual word (Bible) or to Jesus Christ....Thanks for the input

There are quite of few of these sites around and yes, they deliberately take passages out-of-context. You have to remember, Chronicles/Kings are parallel books as are the gospels. Just as there was a purpose with each of the gospels - to reveal Jesus from several perspectives - I would imagine the same literary device was used with the old testament. Add to this the bible was "God breathed", the many versions have suffered over the years. Try this with a 30+ group of people. Tell a 3-minute story and ask the person to pass it on. By the time you get to the last person, you will likely have quite a different version

I usually read from about 3-4 versions. Some are straight translations while others are transliterations (e.g. NIV). I like the King James language because the concordances are taken from this version and the text is about as pure as it gets. If you have questions about some passages, read the KJV. This forum has a link to an online bible.

These passages are really quite minor in the large scheme of things. What you need to think about. Would you REALLY say to God when you meet him "Well, your word had all these inconsistencies so how could I be expected to believe in your perfect work when your word was not perfect ?". Good luck with that - just kidding around. :hug:

Also, if these sites deliberately misinterpret the bible, why should they be taken at face on anything they say? Mostly, the Bill Maher gang are just angry because they KNOW they're wrong yet are too prideful to admit their error.

Well ya know, as i said before the infamous list of inconsistencies in the Bible. Here is one popular list someone gave me http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html), though it doesn't shake my faith too much, as a lot of them are taken out of context and easily explained but some of them might make ya think just a little. It is just good to have a good argument for the idea that God's word is perfect but i wasn't sure if it referred to the actual word (Bible) or to Jesus Christ....Thanks for the input

Any "real" inconsistancies that I've found, aren't anything to concern yourself with. Take the mistake of a certain kings age being noted as age 8, then in another book his age is 18. Does it really matter? Is the character of God affected by this in any way? Does anything you find written contradict God?
I could see a concern over something like God said in the OT that homosexuality is a sin, and pretend that later he said it's not a sin...that is a contradiction. But stuff like that, doesn't exist...it's consistent throughout, you see the same character throughout the whole bible, both OT and NT.:saint:

John 14:27-29 (New International Version)

New International Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31) (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society (http://www.ibs.org/)
http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=22) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=10) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=26) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2)


27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. 28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe.

And Jesus is greater than me... or you... and he loves you. but, if you don't repent;
Luke 13:27-29 (New International Version)

New International Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31) (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society (http://www.ibs.org/)
http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=22) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=10) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=26) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2)



27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.

Well, Gulah I put no im not a christian, but seeking Christ because I get so tired of seeing lukewarm christians and "sometimes" christians that i didn't want to lie and say i am a christian, because i have fallen away from christ and am working my way back to him currently. I grew up in a christian school, went to a baptist church all of my life and do believe with all my heart in Jesus Christ and God. But if believing was enough then everyone would go to heaven. I have been more or less caught up in the worldly things and it has been pressing on me for a while to get back in church and put my life back in christ's hands once and for all. I don't have a whole lot of christian influence as far as someone to go to church and stuff like that so it's a little harder tho i have been studying the Bible and learning new things that i never realized before.

Yes to me those small inconsistencies are not of importance, but i guess mainly i was seeking an answer to give to nonbelievers that pick the Bible apart. Then of course they say "Well if some of it is inconsistent then how can you believe any of it"? More or less I just want to be able to make the best argument for God and his word to be able to express it's divinity though i know it has many things that are divine. A lot of times the word falls on deaf ears and people will choose not to believe it no matter how many divine points the Bible makes, people will claim that christians twist the word to fit their needs and to prove their points, which is just not true. I have never had to twist anything...I honestly think they begin to feel convicted when they hear someone talk about God which is exactly what satan would do. Thanks for everyone's input...very helpful

Hi Blue,

It can be hard to try to convince others of something you are not very solid with yourself. What I mean is that it would be better to address your questions, the things that are weighing most heavily on your own heart first, and leave the objections of other people for later.

The fact that you don't want to claim yourself as a Christian because you know you're not "walking the walk" says a great deal for your integrity. What do you think it will take for you to get back to where you need to be with the Lord?

Yeh it's really obvious when i talk to people about the Bible that they just don't want to believe. They ask me a question i give them a straight logical answer right from the Bible with scripture, and they jus claim i twisted the bible to fit my needs when it's so obvious i didn't and gave the scripture in a straightforward manner without twisting anything.

Evolutionists claim they have overwhelming proof that proves the Bible wrong...I'm still trying to figure that one out. Somehow they convince themselves that we just evolved over billions of years into different species from some primortial earth dirt. Though no answers for how the eye came to be our emotions, conscience, personality, etc....

This is a great site to check out
http://www.eternal-productions.org/101science.html

Yeh it's really obvious when i talk to people about the Bible that they just don't want to believe. They ask me a question i give them a straight logical answer right from the Bible with scripture, and they jus claim i twisted the bible to fit my needs when it's so obvious i didn't and gave the scripture in a straightforward manner without twisting anything.

You do the right thing by sharing the word. The outcome is between them and God really. Some people are receptive and ready to receive it, and some aren't.


Evolutionists claim they have overwhelming proof that proves the Bible wrong...I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Somehow they convince themselves that we just evolved over billions of years into different species from some primortial earth dirt. Though no answers for how the eye came to be our emotions, conscience, personality, etc....

Is this the area that concerns you the most or that prevents you from turning back to God?


This is a great site to check out
http://www.eternal-productions.org/101science.html

I like that very much. Thanks for sharing it with us. Looks like a really good resource.

Hey Blue,

When saying that God's Word (meaning the Bible - we know that Jesus is perfect), this is called the doctrine of inerrancy. Let me give you a definition from a theologian . . .
The idea that Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact.[/URL] [URL="http://bibleforums.org/#_ftnref1"] (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1)
Grudem, W. A. (1994). Systematic theology : An introduction to biblical doctrine (1245). Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, Mich.: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House.


Let me point out a key phrase from that definition . . . in the original manuscripts.

Inerrancy doesn't teach copies and translations are perfect. However, when people claim there is an error in the Bible, they need to think carefully. Many so called errors aren't errors at all. Many times, as you yourself pointed out, they are misinterpretations. Sometimes it's a mistranslation into the receptor language. Sometimes it's an obvious copyist error and we can figure out what the original likely said.

I work in a scientific field and am very analytical, rational, logical, etc. Problems bother me till I figure them out. I like your honesty and your approach. I'd be glad to help you work with any Bible difficulties one at a time.

If you're willing to spend a relatively small amount of money, I can recommend two good books for these issues.

Grace & peace,

Joe