On another thread of mine, about Biblical creationism and evolution, this subject came up so I wanted to start a fresh thread to discuss it and leave the other thread for the original topic.

Okay, right now I'd describe myself as agnostic. It's not the best term, because in addition to meaning "I don't know" it also tends to mean "we cannot know" -- and I'm not convinced of that. At present, my agnosticism applies to God. I'm not sure if there is a God or not. I also don't believe that the Bible is the direct, inerrant word of God. Being in this position creates a circular sort of trap. God, and the nature of God, cannot be proven to me using Bible verses, because I'm not convinced those verses are true. The inerracy and truth of the Bible cannot be proven to me using the only source of God's word, the Bible, because, obviously, the thing in question can't be evidence for itself. So, obviously, I'm kind of impossible to talk to at the moment and I feel bad for other people and frustrated with myself for being so unreachable.

My question for this thread is -- what evidence exists outside of the Bible that either supports the idea of God or supports the validity of Biblical claims? For example, I've heard people say that there is all kinds of historical evidence to believe the Bible or that science has proven some of the things mentioned in the Bible, but I don't have any sources for that. I'd like some. Can you help?

I'm kind of impossible to talk to at the moment and I feel bad for other people and frustrated with myself for being so unreachable.

My heart is breaking over you. All I can say is that if you search for God with your whole heart, He will be found by you. But obviously, if your heart is unconvinced about even the existence of God, the search will be half-hearted at best. It really does all come down to faith. I understand the conundrum and I'm so sorry you're in this situation.



My question for this thread is -- what evidence exists outside of the Bible that either supports the idea of God or supports the validity of Biblical claims?

Here's an apologetics site (http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml) that has lots of information that might be helpful to you. I hope you will spend some time considering what it says.

You have a conscience which tells you when you've done right and when you've done wrong. Some think there is no right and wrong and its simply each one's idea. But, if someone stole everything you own, burned down your house, vandalized your car, kidnapped your family and bragged about it on a radio show, you would definitely agree they did you wrong.

You are a moral agent; you know there is love and hate. God gave you this sense of right and wrong. The only problem is, if you know you've done wrong, you must square things with God some how. You know there is such a thing as justice. If the same person who did all that rotten stuff to you was brought before a judge and the judge fell like being loving and letting him or her off the hook, you would know that justice was betrayed. God is just and we who have done wrong must face up this.

It is only reasonable and logical, even with, especially with, scientific knowledge to believe that there is a God. Creation shouts it. Your conscience affirms it.

What are you waiting for? :)

I sit here wondering which answer I should give you: the short, traditional answer...or the long, drawn-out, new philosophical development in epistemology kind of answer.

Since I'm at work and can't spend too much time on the latter (which is really the best answer I can provide), I'll provide a synopsis of what's wrong with the question and then a link to an article that deals with what you're saying:

* "Evidence" is not needed in order to believe everything. Some things are accepted prima facie due to the necessity to do so. For instance, can you use evidence to prove you exist right now without using circular logic? Short answer: No, it's impossible. You simply accept that you are actually conscience, thus you believe with all your heart that what you are experiencing is real even though there is no evidence.

* Evidence can sometimes be necessary but not sufficient, and sometimes is not even needed. As I attempted to show above, evidence isn't always needed to believe something exists. If it makes sense and is logical, one does not need evidence.

The article that might help you is: The Necessity of God in the Aquisition of Knowledge (http://thechristianwatershed.com/2008/05/07/the-necessity-in-god-in-the-acquisition-of-knowledge/)

Notice this article never makes appeals to evidence, but instead appeals to reason and everyday experience for proof for the necessity of God.

Hope that helps.

My question for this thread is -- what evidence exists outside of the Bible that either supports the idea of God or supports the validity of Biblical claims? For example, I've heard people say that there is all kinds of historical evidence to believe the Bible or that science has proven some of the things mentioned in the Bible, but I don't have any sources for that. I'd like some. Can you help?:hmm: Good question. I am not sure I can satisfy your requirements of evidence but I will offer a few exhibits for examination.

First, consider Jesus Christ as evidence of God. Jesus Christ is not merely a character of the Bible. The news of Jesus Christ's birth, life, ministry, crucifixion, and resurrection have been a stir for nearly 2000 years now. Jesus Christ has been a constant in human history for that time as well. What is all the fuss about? What is it about Jesus Christ and His story that has captivated mankind all of these years? I would say that what has captivated mankind's conscience is Jesus Christ's claim of who He is.

Second, I offer myself as evidence of God. This evidence exists as my testimony and witness to you that God saved me by His grace. My faith in Jesus Christ and who and for what purpose He claimed to be has changed me eternally. I am a changed person and God is that agent of change.

Third, and lastly, I offer yourself as evidence of God. Your existence and consideration of these matters proves that the consideration of God is plausible. You might ponder how you are here, for what pupose, and what will happen to you. You might ponder how it is that you are imperfect and in that contemplation you can fathom a comparison or judgment to what might be the perfect standard. That contemplation of a perfect standard that no man can attain is evidence that something must therefore exist that is perfect. That perfect standard is your creator, God.

So there are three evidences of God that I offer exterior of the Bible for your consideration.

God Bless!

I know a man who says he started out an atheist. Then through dialog with his Christian friends he became convinced, first, that a god must exist. In other words, he went from being an atheist to being a theist, but was not convinced that the Christian God was the real God. It wasn't until much later that he finally became convinced that the God of the Bible was the real, actual God.

Some would argue that nature itself offers independent evidence of God's existence. The natural order is rational. The rational order implies a mind to organize it rationally. Therefore a mind exists that accounts for the rational order.

My question for this thread is -- what evidence exists outside of the Bible that either supports the idea of God or supports the validity of Biblical claims? For example, I've heard people say that there is all kinds of historical evidence to believe the Bible or that science has proven some of the things mentioned in the Bible, but I don't have any sources for that. I'd like some. Can you help?

Archaeology is a good start. Look these up:

Larsa-Weld Prism
Temptation Seal
Adam & Eve seal
Giglamesh Tablet