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chad
Oct 11th 2008, 08:40 AM
Does anybody know the meaning of The Morning Star as written in the bible?


I have included the verses referred to in the bible, and then some questions at the end of it.

Isaiah 14:12 refers to the Morning Star, Son of the Dawn.
In my NIV bible study notes, it says the word ‘morning star’ translates into lucifer in the latin vulgate bible.

(Isa 14:12) How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! (13) You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. (14) I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (15) But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.


Isaiah 14:16-20 seems to refer to lucifer as a man here on earth.


(Isa 14:16) Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, (17) the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?"

(18) All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb. (19) But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot,

(20) you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again.


In Revelation, 22:16, Jesus refers to himself as the Bright Morning Star.

(Rev 22:16) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

My NIV study notes say to refer to numbers 24:17 (Regarding Rev 22:16)

(Num 24:17) "I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth.


And Revelation 2:25-27 says:

(Rev 2:25) Only hold on to what you have until I come. (26) To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations--(27) 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' -- just as I have received authority from my Father. (28) I will also give him the morning star.

The only other reference to the Morning star is 2 Peter 1:19

(2 Pet 1:19) And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

My NIV study notes on (2 Peter 1:19) say this refers to the transfiguration?

Questions.

1) If Isaiah 14:12 refers to the (morning star, son of the dawn) as lucifer who fell from the heavens, what does it mean in vs16 where it appears the verse is referring to lucifer as a man?


2) If morning star translates to lucifer, why does Jesus refer to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16?


3) What is Numbers 24:17, Revelation 2:25-27 referring to?


4) What is peter refering to in (2 Pet 1:19). My NIV study notes say it is related to the transfiguration, but I don’t understand it?

:help:

BHS
Oct 12th 2008, 02:19 AM
Chad, I know that many understand verse 12 to refer to Satan, but personally, I think there is a better interpretation.


"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! 13 "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' 15 "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. 16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?' 18 "All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb. 19 "But you have been cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch, clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, who go down to the stones of the pit like a trampled corpse. 20 "You will not be united with them in burial, because you have ruined your country, you have slain your people. May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever.

Tertullian and Gregory the Great, among others, have applied verse 12 to the mention of satan in Luke 10:18. While there might be a subtle hint of a spiritual force behind him, the context is that of the Babylonian king. The pagan kings claimed to be divine or at least sons of gods. The description of the king as a fallen star reflects upon his foolish deification of himself in verses 13 and 14. The Babylonian king had desired to be exalted above God, and now he is pictured as having fallen from heaven in disgrace. The second part of verse 12 describes him as a tall stately tree that has been cut down. This is a picture of the end of an oppressive, cruel regime.

Jesus, I think is correctly called the "bright morning star", but not to be confused with the sun! Therefore I think Micah 4:2 is a poor translation and should say the "Servant of Righteousness".


Numbers 24:17 "I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near; A star shall come forth from Jacob, A scepter shall rise from Israel, And shall crush through the forehead of Moab, And tear down all the sons of Sheth.

This is a prophecy of Moses referring to Jesus, the Messiah.

The Second Peter passage, I believe, is tied to Isaiah 60:1-3


"Arise, shine; for your light has come, And the glory of the LORD has risen upon you. 2 "For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3 "Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

I think the Isaiah passage either refers to Jesus' first appearing or the end of days, or both.
In Second Peter, verse 18's mention of the Holy Mountain probably does refer to the Mount of Transfiguration. I think the Second Peter passage probably refers to the "day" that one recognizes Jesus as their Savior.

Blessings,
BHS

chad
Oct 12th 2008, 09:27 AM
Hi BHS,

Thank you for posting a reply. I have read your reply and it has helped me quite alot. In my study today I found another resource which has helped me answer alot of my questions.

It has sort of bugged me a bit, as it's a question I have not been able to answer for along time, but I think I got it today.

So I thought I would share my answer with anyone who is interested, becuase others have shared and helped me understand things better.

In order to understand Isaiah 14, I had to read the whole of Isaiah 14. When I read it today, it came to me that it is talking about Gods judgement on the King of Babylon.

Isaiah is commanded in 14:4 to take up this taunt against the king of Babylon.

Isaiah uses the fall of Lucifer in 14:11-20 as an example of what is going to happen to the king of Babylon, as Lucifer tried to exalt himself above God, so on earth the 'King of Babylon' exalted himself like a God on earth.

(Isa 14:11 NIV) All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.

Isa 14:11 - Sort of reminds me of a description of hell.

Just as Gods judgement came on Lucifer, the king of Babylon was also going to be Judged by God, his fate similar to Lucifers. One is heavenly judgement and the other an earthly judgement- but the comparisons are there.

Lucifers - fall from Heaven

(Isa 14:12 NIV) How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

In his heart Lucifer wanted to put his throne above Gods
(Isa 14:13 NIV) You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
(Isa 14:14 NIV) I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."


Lucifers fate however was the depths of the pit.
(Isa 14:15 NIV) But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.


Verse 16 then turns back to fate of the King of Babylon.
(Isa 14:16 NIV) Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,


(Isa 14:17 NIV) the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?"


(Isa 14:18 NIV) All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb.


(Isa 14:19 NIV) But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot,


(Isa 14:20 NIV) you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again.


The Morning Star Explained

Isaiah 14:12 speaks of someone who is given the name of "Day Star" or "Morning Star" as fallen from heaven.


In Latin the word "Lucifer", meaning "Light-Bringer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), is a name for the Morning Star (The planet Venus) in its dawn appearances.

1) In Isaiah 14:12 translates "הילל" (Hêlēl), which also means "Morning Star" has exactly the same literal meaning of "Light-Bringer" but refers to "Lucifer"


The verse in 2 Peter 1:19 uses the greek word Phosphoros, which has the same meaning light-bringer - same as morning stat but has a different meaning


I have also learnt that the Words Morning star in Revelation are different words than the one in Isaiah 14:2 so they do not relate at all to Lucifer. Even though Jesus says he is the Morning Star, he is not meaning he is lucifer. The words mean completely different things.

Regarding Numbers 23:7 Yes, I understand it now. Thanks for you help. This is a prophecy of Moses referring to Jesus, the Messiah.

Here is my own person thoughts on lucifer (Isaiah 14:12) and Jesus in Revelation (22:16).

Lucifer wanted to exalt himself above Gods throne and was cast down to the pit. His atempt to overthrow Gods throne was a perversion to God and Lucifer was judged for it.


Jesus, however was the one who God had planned to be seated on the throne. Not above God, but at the right hand side of God. In Revelation 22:16 Jesus says I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.


Lucifer, the fallen morning star, through his perversion to exalt himself above Gods Throne. But Jesus reveals he is the true morning star.

ananias
Oct 12th 2008, 06:17 PM
According to Microsoft's Encarta Encylopedia (not freely available, it has to be bought), Lucifer is the ancient (pre-Roman Empire) Latin name for the morning star, and Phosporous is the ancient Latin name for the evening star. Both were considered gods.

The name Lucifer does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament - it only appears in the Latin Vulgate ti translate the Hebrew words referring to the morning star.

Microsofts Encarta Encylopedia states that te reference to the king of Babylon as the morninf star is satyrical - he attempts to rise above the stars of God but is brought low. On the other hand, Jesus rose above the stars of God by rising from the dead and ascending into heaven.

IMO. it's just "pictures" taken from natural things to explain spiritual things - like the parable of the seeds sown in stony places, etc.

But Lucifer is not the name for the devil - the Bible calls him the devil, dragon, the seprent, Satan, the adversary. But never does the Bible call him Lucifer - except in that one latin translation.

chad
Oct 12th 2008, 06:56 PM
Hi ananias,

Yes you are correct it is only in the latin where it is translated as lucifer. When I was studying this yesterday, I came across a reference on why some believe that lucifer is satan. It comes from the teachings of the Early Catholic Church Leaders, who used the Latin Vulgate Bible.

1) In the Vulgate (5th century version of the Latin Bible), Jerome (An Early Church leader and saint Catholic Church 347-420) translated "היללבן־שׁחר" (morning star, son of dawn) as "lucifer qui mane oriebaris" (morning star that used to rise early).
2) Early Christian writers Tertullian (Early Christian writer 160 – ca.220 AD) and Origen (Early Christian Scholar and theologian 185–ca. 254) believed the whole passage had come to be applied to Satan.

So that is where I got the comparison for Lucifer=Satan.

I found most of the information on wikipedia - The free online encyclopedia. I did a search on lucifer and that is where Isaiah 14 was explained.

ananias
Oct 12th 2008, 07:45 PM
Hi ananias,

Yes you are correct it is only in the latin where it is translated as lucifer. When I was studying this yesterday, I came across a reference on why some believe that lucifer is satan. It comes from the teachings of the Early Catholic Church Leaders, who used the Latin Vulgate Bible.

1) In the Vulgate (5th century version of the Latin Bible), Jerome (An Early Church leader and saint Catholic Church 347-420) translated "היללבן־שׁחר" (morning star, son of dawn) as "lucifer qui mane oriebaris" (morning star that used to rise early).
2) Early Christian writers Tertullian (Early Christian writer 160 – ca.220 AD) and Origen (Early Christian Scholar and theologian 185–ca. 254) believed the whole passage had come to be applied to Satan.

So that is where I got the comparison for Lucifer=Satan.

I found most of the information on wikipedia - The free online encyclopedia. I did a search on lucifer and that is where Isaiah 14 was explained.

Yeah, it's amazing how much superstition has surrounded that name Lucifer over the millennia! When I was a new Christian, I shuddered at that name - as though the stupid name had some sort of power.

It's really wrong (maybe even a trick of Satan) that in the minds of men power is ascribed to the word "Lucifer" (the only name that has power is the name of God - and Jesus is Yeshua - the salvation of YHWH!)

ananias

My heart's Desire
Oct 13th 2008, 01:34 AM
As far as Is. 14:12 the NKJV has lucifer but says it literally is Day Star ( I suppose it means the Day Star was translated as Lucifer?) and the translators apply only verses 12-14 as being related to meaning Satan, where as in Revelation the Lord Jesus is the bright and morning star.

ohh, i hate being late on a thread. I've heard what Chad said earlier and seem to agree. :)

chad
Oct 13th 2008, 08:09 AM
Hi My Hearts Desire

I went back today to look at the definition in wikipedia (poor persons free encyclopedia) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer)

The use of the word "Lucifer" was used in the 1611 King James Version instead of a word such as "Daystar".

Most modern English versions of the Bible (including the NIV, NRSV, NASB, NJB and ESV) render the Hebrew word as "day star", "morning star" or something similar, and never as "Lucifer", a word that in English is now very rarely used in the sense of the original word in Hebrew, though in Latin "Lucifer" was a literal translation


Church Leaders who identify Lucifer with Satan

Tertullian ("Contra Marrionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Revelation 12:7-10; cf. Luke 10:18).

The Tyndale Bible Dictionary states that there are many who believe the expression "Lucifer" and the surrounding context in Isaiah 14 refer to Satan: they believe the similarities among Isaiah 14:12, Luke 10:18, and Revelation 12:7-10 warrant this conclusion. But it points out that the context of the Isaiah passage is about the accomplished defeat of the king of Babylon, while the New Testament passages speak of Satan.

Wikipedia Search on Satan

Today I also did a wikipedia search on Satan : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan)
And it was quite interesting.

Satan, (Standard Hebrew Satan'el, English accuser), is a term that originates from the Abrahamic faiths, being traditionally applied to an angel in Judeo-Christian belief, and to a jinn in Islamic belief.

While Hebrew he-Satan is "the accuser" and Satan itself means "to overcome" — the one who challenged the religious faith of humans in the books of Job and Zechariah.

Abrahamic religious belief systems other than Judaism relate this term to a demon, a rebellious fallen angel, devil, minor god and idol, or as an allegory for knowledge or the enlightenment of mankind.

In Christianity, terms that are synonymous with 'Satan' include:

The most common English synonym for 'Satan' is 'Devil', which descends from Middle English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English) devel, from Old English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English) dēofol, that in turn represents an early Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages) borrowing of Latin diabolus (also the source of 'diabolical').


This in turn was borrowed from Greek diabolos "slanderer," from diaballein "to slander": dia- "across, through" + ballein "to hurl." In the New Testament, 'Satan' occurs more than thirty times in passages alongside Diabolos (Greek for "the devil"), referring to the same person or thing as Satan.

Lucifer is sometimes used in Christian theology to refer to Satan, as a result of identifying the fallen "son of the dawn" of Isaiah 14:12 with the "accuser" of other passages in the Old Testament.

Beelzebub is originally the name of a Philistine god (more specifically a certain type of Baal, from Ba‘al Zebûb, lit. "Lord of Flies") but is also used in the New Testament as a synonym for Satan.

"The dragon" and "the old serpent" in the Book of Revelation 12:9, 20:2 have also been identified with Satan, as have "the prince of this world" in the Book of John 12:31, 14:30; "the prince of the power of the air" also called Meririm, and "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" in the Book of Ephesians 2:2; and "the god of this world" in 2 Corinthians 4:4

Leviathan is described as "that crooked serpent," which is also used to describe Satan in Revelation 12:9. 'Sar ha Olam,' a possible name for Metatron, is described as Satan by Michael, Jehoel and St. Paul.

Mainstream Christianity

In mainstream Christianity's understanding of the holy Hebrew scriptures, the Torah, Satan is a synonym for the Devil.

For most Christians, he is believed to be an angel who rebelled against God— and also the one who spoke through the serpent and seduced Eve into disobeying God's command. His ultimate goal is to lead people away from the love of God — to lead them to fallacies which God opposes.

Satan is also identified as the accuser of Job, the tempter in the Gospels, the secret power of lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians 2:7, and the dragon in the Book of Revelation.

Before his alleged insurrection, Satan was among the highest of all angels and the "brightest in the sky." His pride is considered a reason why he would not bow to God as all other angels did, but sought to rule heaven himself.

The popularly held beliefs that Satan was once a prideful angel who eventually rebels against God, however, are barely portrayed explicitly in the Bible and are mostly based on inference.


Moreover, in mainstream Christianity he is called "the ruler of the demons" (Matt. 12:24), "the ruler of the world" and even "the god of this world." (2 Cor. 4:4).
The Book of Revelation describes how Satan will be cast out of Heaven, down to the earth, having "great anger" and waging war against "those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus".

Ultimately, Satan is thrown into the "lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10), not as ruler, but as one among many, being tormented day and night for all eternity.

In other, non-mainstream, Christian beliefs (e.g. the beliefs of the Christadelphians) the word "satan" in the Bible is not regarded as referring to a supernatural, personal being but to any 'adversary' and figuratively refers to human sin and temptation.

ananias
Oct 13th 2008, 11:56 AM
The Book of Revelation describes how Satan will be cast out of Heaven, down to the earth, having "great anger" and waging war against "those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus".

Ultimately, Satan is thrown into the "lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10), not as ruler, but as one among many, being tormented day and night for all eternity.



Hi, chad. I know you were repling to My Heart's Desire in the above post, but I wanted to ask why you believe Satan will be cast out of heaven down to earth. Isn't this what happened after the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Christ, as verses 5-9 seem to indicate?

"And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul until death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time." (Rev.12: 10-12).

The Law of God summed up in the Ten Commandment wascontained in the ark of the testimony - and the 10 Commandments were a testimony against us because we break the commandments.

Satan was able to accuse the brethren by the law which had been broken only until Jesus had shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins (which are the transgression of the Law). Therefore he was legally cast out of heaven, since he had lost the means whereby he could accuse the brethren:

"Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God." (Exo.23: 17)

"Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them. And Jehovah said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil. Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?" (Job 1: 6-9)

Did not Job represent "the brethren" - "the faithful remnant"? What was Satan doing among "the sons of God"? (I'll get to the idea that "the sons of God" refer to fallen angels in a minute). Was it not to accuse "the sons of God" that Satan came among them before God?

"Sons of God":

In the New Testament, the term always refers to whom?

In the Old Testament, the term is found only in the following 5 verses:

(1 and 2 - Gen.6: 1, 4)

"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all that they chose." (Gen.6: 1-4)

Genesis 4: genealogical line of Cain ("the sons of men").

Genesis 5: genealogical line of Seth ("the sons of God" - compare Gen.5: 3 with Gen.1: 26-27)

Genesis 6: the two lines merge ("the sons of God" marry "the daughters of men")

Genesis 7: Judgment.

(3) "Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them." (Job 1: 6)

(4) "Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan came also among them to present himself before Jehovah." (Job 2: 1)

(5) "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell if you have understanding! Who has set its measurements, for you know? Or who has stretched the line on it? On what are its bases sunk, or who cast its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38: 4-7)

In the Hebrew of the above verses, "morning stars" and "sons of God" are both in the singular - "morning star" and "son of God" (ben Elohim).

Jesus called Himself the morning star in Rev.22: 16.

(a) How many morning stars are there?; and
(b) According to Genesis 1 and Prov.8: 27, who was there when God created the heavens and the earth?

"When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle upon the face of the deep;" (Prov.8: 27)

"Listen to me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He; I am the first, I also am the last. My hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. I called; they stood up together. Let all of you gather and hear; who among them has declared these things? Jehovah has loved him; He will do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be on the Chaldeans. I, I, have spoken; yea, I have called him; I brought him and he makes his way succeed. Come near to Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning. From its being, I was there; and now the Lord Jehovah, and His Spirit, has sent Me." (Isa.48: 12-16)

"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell if you have understanding! Who has set its measurements, for you know? Or who has stretched the line on it? On what are its bases sunk, or who cast its cornerstone,..

... when the boqer kokab (morning star) sang yachad (in unity) and kol ("the whole") ben elohiym (son of God) shouted for joy?" (Job 38: 4-7)

Can the term "sons of God" ever refer to fallen angels? If so, then the New Testament use of the term is completely and totally inconsistent with the Old Testament use of the term.

So was "the accuser of the brothers" not cast out of heaven to the earth at the time of the crucifoxion, resurrection and ascension of Christ, because the Law by which he could accuse them had been fulfilled by Christ and its just requiremrnt with regard to the sinner had been met?

ananias

chad
Oct 13th 2008, 06:56 PM
Hi ananias,

Those are very good questions. I have never done a study on that before, but I think I will take a look at it over the next few days and see what I can learn. I will post a reply in a few days once I have had a chance to study the verses.

ananias
Oct 13th 2008, 07:39 PM
Hi ananias,

Those are very good questions. I have never done a study on that before, but I think I will take a look at it over the next few days and see what I can learn. I will post a reply in a few days once I have had a chance to study the verses.

:eek: Only if you're interested - I didn't mean to give you a whole lotta work!

ananias

My heart's Desire
Oct 14th 2008, 04:07 AM
I think the main contention in Isaiah 14 is not whether it should say lucifer or not but that it says morning star. Jesus is the bright and morning star, but if people see the passage in Isaiah, which obviously is NOT talking about Jesus and then the one in Revelation about Jesus being the morning star is read, confusion abounds. Yet the context in Isaiah clearly lets us know it is not Jesus in those 2 verses.

chad
Oct 14th 2008, 09:19 AM
Hi Annanias,

I spent some time reading your reply today and I wanted to try answer your questions, but I had problem understanding the reply and figuring out what the question was?

I have to be honest and say it’s a bit too complicated for me :o, so I will have to pass and hopefully someone else can help you out with it.

ananias
Oct 14th 2008, 11:15 AM
Hi Annanias,

I spent some time reading your reply today and I wanted to try answer your questions, but I had problem understanding the reply and figuring out what the question was?

I have to be honest and say it’s a bit too complicated for me :o, so I will have to pass and hopefully someone else can help you out with it.

It's not serious. I was asking why you believe Satan will be ("will be" meaning future tense) cast out of heaven, because my understanding of Revelation 12 (which is the passage which speaks about him being cast out of heaven) is that Satan was cast out of heaven immediately after the ascension of Jesus to heaven.

I related the statement in Revelation 12 concerning "the accuser of the brethren, who accused them before God day and night" to the passage in Job which speaks about Satan appearing among "the sons of God", and asked those questions about "the sons of God" and "the morning star" (also written about in Job 38: 7), because the words "morning star" relates to your thread and to the fact that "the morning star" in Isaiah 14: 12 (translated as "Lucifer in the Vulgate and the King James Version) is referring to the king of Babylon who attempted to exalt himself above the other "stars of God" and yet was brought low, whereas Christ calls Himself "the morning star" in Revelation, because He rose above "the stars of God" when He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

So I wanted to know:

(a) if you believe that its possible that Satan was cast out of heaven immediately after the ascension of Jesus; and

(b) if you believe that its possible that since the Hebrew words translated as "morning stars" in Job 38: 7 are in the singular - "morning star" - in the original Hebrew, as well as the words "sons of God", which is also ben elohiym (singular) in the original Hebrew, that Job 38: 7 is actually referring to the eternal Son of God as "the morning star" who was present at the time God created the heavens and the earth, and not to angels, as is commonly believed by Christians, bearing in mind that there is and always has been only one "morning star".

I apologize for not making myself very clear - and I apologize if I haven't made myself clear this time around, either. People have complained to me sometimes that I tal way over their heads - but maybe that's not the case - maybe it's just me who doesn't express properly what I'm trying to ask or say.

God bless,
ananias

chad
Oct 15th 2008, 07:09 AM
Hi Anannias

Ok, I will have a go at answering your question. The first thing I have to admit is that I find the book of Revelation, puzzling in certain areas.

I am no expert in the word of God or a bible scholar or theologian, so I will try my best to give just my opinion (humbly and respectfully) to answer your questions.

Questions:

(a) if you believe that its possible that Satan was cast out of heaven immediately after the ascension of Jesus;

Answer: Bible commentaries view this passage as an vision of the end of time or as a reference to spiritual warfare within the church. Not the exact time of Satan being cast down from heaven directly after the ascention of Christ.

(Source: Wikipedia search on war in heaven. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_heaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_heaven) )

In my NIV Bible study notes for Revelation 12:9 it says…

Dragon was hurled…to the earth. Not the original casting out of heaven, but his final exclusio-an explanation of his intense hostility against God’s people in the last days.

I do not believe that the passage in Revelation 12:7-9 was the exact time when satan was cast out of heaven.

Instead it says in (Luke 10:18) He (Jesus) replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

Jesus said this to the seventy two others during his ministry, while he was still on earth. Before his death and ressurection. The verse does not go into any further detail about when he saw Satan fall like lightning.


(b) if you believe that its possible that since the Hebrew words translated as "morning stars" in Job 38: 7 are in the singular - "morning star" - in the original Hebrew, as well as the words "sons of God", which is also ben elohiym (singular) in the original Hebrew, that Job 38: 7 is actually referring to the eternal Son of God as "the morning star" who was present at the time God created the heavens and the earth, and not to angels, as is commonly believed by Christians, bearing in mind that there is and always has been only one "morning star".



Do I believe that Job 38:7 is referring to the son of God? No.

(Job 38:6) On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone--(7) while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

To me there seems to be 2 different distinctions. One being morning stars (Meaning there was more than one morning star present?) and the other being Angels.

Possibly, and this is just my opinion the morning stars could be a different class of angels? Just as lucifer was called ‘O morning star, son of the dawn’ in Isaiah 14:12, maybe there were other angels who also had the title of ‘morning star’, even though there are none mentioned in the bible?

We know that the words used to describe Jesus as a Morning star in Revelation are different than the words used to describe morning star in Isaiah 14:12, which some have translated to lucifer using the latin vulgate bible.


Source: Wikipedia search on lucifer( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer) ) - Section - Mentions of the Morning Star in the Bible


Mentions of the Morning Star in the Bible

In the Latin Vulgate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate) the word "Lucifer" was used twice to refer to the Morning Star: once for "הילל" (hêlēl) in Isaiah 14:12 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Isaiah&verse=14:12&src=!) and once for the Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) word "φωσφόρος" (phosphoros) in 2 Peter 1:19 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=2%20Peter&verse=1:19&src=!).

"Lucifer" (Morning Star) also appears twice in the Vulgate translation of the Book of Job (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job), once to represent the word "בקר" (which instead means "morning") in Job 11:17 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Job&verse=11:17&src=!), and once for the word "מזרות" (usually taken to mean "the constellations") in Job 38:32 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Job&verse=38:32&src=!); and it appears also in Psalms 110:3 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Psalms&verse=110:3&src=!) for "שׁחר" (dawn, the same word as in Isaiah 14:12 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Isaiah&verse=14:12&src=!)).

Two references to the Morning Star in the Book of Revelation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation) are not represented in the Vulgate by "lucifer". In both cases a circumlocution is used in the original Greek text, instead of the simple term "φωσφόρος", and a corresponding circumlocution is used in the Latin.

Thus "stella matutina" is used for "ὁ ἀστὴρ ὁ πρωϊνός" in Revelation 2:28 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Revelation&verse=2:28&src=!) and 22:16 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Revelation&verse=22:16&src=!). (In the latter case some Greek manuscripts have the adjective "ὀρθρινός" instead of " πρωϊνός".)


I'm not sure if this is the answer you were looking for, but it's the best I could come up with. :rolleyes:


Chad.

ananias
Oct 15th 2008, 10:11 AM
Thanks, Chad. I think it's good to discuss these things - the more people who contribute their understanding of thosescriptures, the clearer those sciptures might become - they're very difficult scriptures to understand.

ananias

beadsofblessing
Oct 23rd 2008, 09:53 PM
Lucifer is said to be the name of Satan before his fall as he was once an "angel of light," and still poses as such in deceit today. He is a deceiver and attempts to counterfeit as Christ. This verse tells us that Jesus is the true morning star:
"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (Revelation 22:16)
However, Daystar, or Morning Star (in Latin 'Lucifer' - Light Bringer) is also used in reference to Satan. The rebellious Day-Star Lucifer, Satan appears as falling lightning, according to Christ: "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18)

Isaiah 14:3-20 speaks of someone who is given the name of "Day Star" or "Morning Star" (in Latin, Lucifer) as fallen from heaven. A similar passage in Ezekiel 28:11-19 regarding the king of Tyre was also applied to Satan, contributing to the traditional picture of Satan and his fall:

How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations! (Isaiah 14:12 NIV)

And in the KJV: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Satan was cast from heaven, thinking himself to be 'God.'

The planet Venus is also referred to as the "Morning Star" in its dawn appearances. This would, of course, also not be referring to Christ as Venus is the name of one of the twelve major Greco-Roman pagan deities, and is said to also refer to Satan/Lucifer. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer)

Jesus, and not Satan as 'Lucifer' is referred to in this passage:
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts. (2 Peter 1:19)

This is the passage given by DAYSTAR Television Network as to their reason for the use of this name. However, in response to an earlier thread as to the possible 'Satanic' reference of their use of this name, refer to their logo displayed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daystar_Television_Network

The STAR used in their logo fits this description by Masonic author Manley P. Hall (Masonry itself being a veiled worship of Lucifer) - "The PENTAGRAM (five pointed star) IS USED EXTENSIVELY IN BLACK MAGIC, but when so used its form always differs in one of three ways: The star may be broken at one point by not permitting the converging lines to touch; it may be inverted by having one point down and two up; or it may be distorted by having the points of varying length."

The DAYSTAR T.V. logo matches two of these three criteria, the first and the last (only one is needed, as mentioned above, but have they used two so as to leave no doubt as to their true intentions...?) It's something to consider. Remember, Satan is a deceiver and a counterfeit.

A good counterfeit (as in a countefeit bill) is only detectable by an 'expert' in such matters and by study and intense scrutiny. Likewise, we should all strive as the 'Bereans' to, "examine, and search the scriptures." (Acts 17:10-15). Also to pray, and to "...test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1-6)

RoadWarrior
Oct 23rd 2008, 10:24 PM
Does anybody know the meaning of The Morning Star as written in the bible?

...

:help:

The Jewish Bible (the Stone edition of the Tanach) translates the verse as:

"How have you fallen from the heavens, O glowing morning star; been cut down to the ground O conqueror of nations?"

There is no indication in the Stone commentary that the Jews ever thought of this as representing Satan. It would be an interesting question to ask of Fenris, in Contro.

The commentators are all over the place in trying to interpret the section. Some say it speaks of Satan, others say that idea is far-fetched. However, the words that speak of "I will..." are notable:



Isaiah 14:1-23
Whether or not Satan's fall is in view, he would have at least influenced the king's fall; and the fatal "I wills" of 14:13-14 are characteristic of Satan's efforts to promote self-worship (see Ge 3:1-5).
(from Willmington's Bible Handbook by Harold Willmington Copyright © 1997 by Harold L. Willmington. Produced with permission of Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. All rights reserved.)

chad
Oct 24th 2008, 01:08 AM
Another verse, which makes me think that Satan is the morning star is in 2 Corinthians 11:14.

(2 Cor 11:14 NIV) And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Here are just some of my own thoughts/opinions. Satan masquarades as an angel of light and tries to decieve people. But really the person they should be following is Jesus Christ, who in Revelation says, he is the True Morning star. I take this to mean we should be following and looking to Jesus to guide us in our life.


God Bless


Chad :rolleyes:

Ethnikos
Oct 24th 2008, 01:31 AM
The Pole Star once was Thuban (3000 B.C.), the third star from the end of the tail in Draco.
...The Arabs of old...looked on the star as an evil star...they said, who had slain the great warrior of the sky who forever lies in the huge coffin outlined by the stars marking the Big Dipper. All the other stars mourn for their lost hero and each night march slowly around the sky in a never-ending funeral procession. The villain, Polaris, alone is kept motionless, an outcast...
http://www.coldwater.k12.mi.us/lms/planetarium/myth/polaris.html (http://www.coldwater.k12.mi.us/lms/planetarium/myth/polaris.html)

In Hindu mythology, the Pole star is called Dhruva, an ardent devotee of the god Vishnu, who was blessed to be in a high position in the sky. Wikipedia


Millar argued that the ancient fear that "the sky is falling" was a description that identified knowledge of precession...an early culture, using the horizon as a measuring instrument, could identify both the slow tilting effect of the sky and also the slow displacement of the pole star and interpret the effects of both as a slow lowering of the sky.


The original Hebrew text of this verse was הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-shachar), meaning "Helel (bright one) son of Shachar (dawn)". Helel, the morning star, was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god Shahar, god of the dawn.http://www.answers.com/topic/lucifer



Helel son of Shachar was a deity in the Ugarit pantheon (the Ugarit pantheon was worshipped by the Canaanites/Babylonians at the time, which is why he is referred to when Isaiah is talking about the king of Babylon).
Helel was prideful and believed that he could take over the mountain of the gods, but was instead struck down for it. FFT Emperor of the Universe

The polar stars are a heavenly representation of the earthly mountain of the gods, according to the, then current, Canaanite mythology.


The prophetic writer has taken this old myth and reworked it into his taunt song. He compares the mighty king of Babylon to the upstart, Helal. He also had a brilliant start, but then Yahweh hurled him down to become the laughingstock of the nations…in spite of the highly mythical nature of the material, the framework into which it is now placed has had the effect of thoroughly mythologizing it. The myth of Helal has become merely a striking illustration dramatizing the splendour of the rise to fame and the shame of the fall which is sarcastically hurled at the king of Babylon. There is no tension whatever between the myth and its Old Testament framework since the myth carries only illustrative value as an extended figure of speech.4 (http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/documents/articles/18/18-contents.htm#sdfootnote4sym)
Just thought I should add a disclaimer that this may not be correct. If it it is not, there is no better explanation as of now. There may be further evidence uncovered in the future, to shed more light on the subject.

David68
Nov 9th 2013, 03:15 PM
Yet another discussion that would have been settled before it began if the King James Bible was read first.

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