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RationalMind
Oct 16th 2008, 06:53 PM
This is another huge one for me. In the Bible you have snakes talking, bushes talking, the world being flooded but all the animals everywhere from every continent being saved, seas parting, whales eating people who survive, people being raised from the dead, fire coming down from heaven, God stopping time, etc. etc. But nothing of any similar "miracle" has been documented for almost 2000 years. Why did God stop?

I mean, even when God did things like send fire down from the sky or make animals talk, his people would turn away from him shortly thereafter. So apparently they were not even convinced enough to follow him after seeing such wonders firsthand?? (they let's face it, people were even MORE superstituous back then). But we are expected to believe the Bible having seen absolutely nothing? How is that fair?

If God sent down fire from the sky and let the heavens rumble with his voice to us now, you don't think (most) people would take notice? Are Christians now required to have a 'stronger' faith than those Christians would need around the time of Jesus?

The Preacher
Oct 16th 2008, 07:03 PM
This is another huge one for me. In the Bible you have snakes talking, bushes talking, the world being flooded but all the animals everywhere from every continent being saved, seas parting, whales eating people who survive, people being raised from the dead, fire coming down from heaven, God stopping time, etc. etc. But nothing of any similar "miracle" has been documented for almost 2000 years. Why did God stop?

I mean, even when God did things like send fire down from the sky or make animals talk, his people would turn away from him shortly thereafter. So apparently they were not even convinced enough to follow him after seeing such wonders firsthand?? (they let's face it, people were even MORE superstituous back then).


This is a good question. It's one that even many Christians struggle with.
I,for one, do not believe that the miracles have stopped. There are numerous documented accounts of miraculous healing taking place.
However,we don't see them everyday. There were also long periods of apparent dormancy in the Old Testament as well. It seems that God often used miracles at opportune times when he wanted to direct history a certain way.



But we are expected to believe the Bible having seen absolutely nothing? How is that fair?

If God sent down fire from the sky and let the heavens rumble with his voice to us now, you don't think (most) people would take notice? Are Christians now required to have a 'stronger' faith than those Christians would need around the time of Jesus?


There is a greater blessing on those who believe without seeing:

John 20:29
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

VerticalReality
Oct 16th 2008, 07:16 PM
The miracles, signs and wonders are still happening . . .

Athanasius
Oct 16th 2008, 07:18 PM
Depends where you live... If you live in the West you aren't likely to hear about miracles.
If you live in the 2/3rds world chances are miracles are quite commonplace.

markdrums
Oct 16th 2008, 07:34 PM
This is another huge one for me. In the Bible you have snakes talking, bushes talking, the world being flooded but all the animals everywhere from every continent being saved, seas parting, whales eating people who survive, people being raised from the dead, fire coming down from heaven, God stopping time, etc. etc. But nothing of any similar "miracle" has been documented for almost 2000 years. Why did God stop?

I mean, even when God did things like send fire down from the sky or make animals talk, his people would turn away from him shortly thereafter. So apparently they were not even convinced enough to follow him after seeing such wonders firsthand?? (they let's face it, people were even MORE superstituous back then). But we are expected to believe the Bible having seen absolutely nothing? How is that fair?

If God sent down fire from the sky and let the heavens rumble with his voice to us now, you don't think (most) people would take notice? Are Christians now required to have a 'stronger' faith than those Christians would need around the time of Jesus?


I think miracles do still happen.. but they're not as "obvious" as they were back then. I don't think there's a NEED for the same kinds of miracles like, "resurrection, blind people gaining sight, water into wine etc..."
Those served a purpose when they were performed... wehich was to validate Jesus' deity as God in the flesh.

I would like to point out one other thing you commented on....
"Talking Snakes".

This is a HUGELY misunderstood, misinterpreted subject. There never was a literal snake who "spoke" to Eve. I imagine that would have freaked her out quite a bit!

The whole thing about the "serpent" is a description of what Satan IS like, personality wise... not what Satan LOOKS like.

Moses, in his historical narrative used the metaphor of a "serpent / snake" to describe the untrustworthy, lying, deceiving, wicked, smooth talking, traits of Satan.
Just as today, if we say someone is a "snake in the grass", the other person wouldn't think we meant a REAL SNAKE. They would understand that metaphor for what it is.

Lucariokid13
Oct 16th 2008, 07:42 PM
I may not be the most qualified but i'll try to answer your question:D.

Ok for the first question, Just because they havnt been "advertised" as such dosent mean they havnt happened. Some peoples diseases have been cured, for example theres a programe on god channel, where a man who can heal, can touch and people who need healing are healed and when he touches them they fall unconcious.
There was a preacher at our church once and a girl had died(when they really die the feases excrete) and they lay his hands on her and she was came alive. And he said he met a couple who wanted kids and had tried for years, so he prayed met them a few years later and they had 8!
And whats not to say there arent miracles happening all the time, its there just a "lesser" porportion.

ok to your second question. Like u said peopple were more supersitious, they could easily interperet it as witch craft. Also Jews thought that all the Christ followers were liars, cheaters etc, so they came with a closed mind. In other words Jews thought christian were anti god or just mad and their miracles were tricks to fool them.

Now for the 3rd q. Religion is faith, if God gave definite proof like fire coming from the sky it wouldnt be faith, and it would get rid of free will. What i mean by that is God gave people free will to worship him or not. So if God sent fire from the sky its giving such proof to people and scaring people into worshiping him its not from their will really.

Its not great but its the best i can do:D.

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 16th 2008, 08:00 PM
I believe before the fall, animals spoke, just obviously were not as intelligent as humans. That is why Eve did not run away screaming when the snake started talking to her. And why would Adam have even thought about looking for a suitable helper among the animals God created, if they wouldn't even be able to communicate?

Also when the angel allowed the donkey to speak to (was it Laben). The angel did not speak through the donkey.

It Revelation we see beasts and other creatures lifting up God in praise and worship. I think animals were intended to speak, but lost that due to the fall (sin).

markdrums
Oct 16th 2008, 08:13 PM
This is another huge one for me. In the Bible you have snakes talking, bushes talking, the world being flooded but all the animals everywhere from every continent being saved, seas parting, whales eating people who survive, people being raised from the dead, fire coming down from heaven, God stopping time, etc. etc. But nothing of any similar "miracle" has been documented for almost 2000 years. Why did God stop?

I mean, even when God did things like send fire down from the sky or make animals talk, his people would turn away from him shortly thereafter. So apparently they were not even convinced enough to follow him after seeing such wonders firsthand?? (they let's face it, people were even MORE superstituous back then). But we are expected to believe the Bible having seen absolutely nothing? How is that fair?

If God sent down fire from the sky and let the heavens rumble with his voice to us now, you don't think (most) people would take notice? Are Christians now required to have a 'stronger' faith than those Christians would need around the time of Jesus?


Continuing with the topic of the serpent & the garden of Eden- Ths "Serpent" is a metaphor to describe Satan's personality.
The reason I say this is because, later in the Bible, Satan is described as a Dragon... but we don't believe he was a literal dragon... we know THAT'S a metaphor too. It's describing his personality- wickedness magnified in disobedience to God.
(Or how about Satan being described as a Goat? Literal? Or metaphor?)
Satan is an ANGEL. A fallen angel, but an angel nonetheless. Angels have NO creative or magical powers. They are Creations of God. Servants... but not powerful in their own right.

Also, we read that Eve ate the fruit of the "Tree of knowledge of Good & Evil." This was NOT a "magical" piece of fruit with powers to enhance & increase knowledge.
The whole "knowledge of good & evil" came from the willful act of disobedience to God's command NOT to eat of it.

It's the same thing as telling a child NOT to eat a cookie before dinner. If he DOES, he knows he did something wrong. He chose to disobey, & the act in itself, causes the problem. Not the cookie.

Make sense?

;)

markinro
Oct 17th 2008, 12:35 AM
This is another huge one for me. In the Bible you have snakes talking, bushes talking, the world being flooded but all the animals everywhere from every continent being saved, seas parting, whales eating people who survive, people being raised from the dead, fire coming down from heaven, God stopping time, etc. etc. But nothing of any similar "miracle" has been documented for almost 2000 years. Why did God stop?

I mean, even when God did things like send fire down from the sky or make animals talk, his people would turn away from him shortly thereafter. So apparently they were not even convinced enough to follow him after seeing such wonders firsthand?? (they let's face it, people were even MORE superstituous back then). But we are expected to believe the Bible having seen absolutely nothing? How is that fair?

If God sent down fire from the sky and let the heavens rumble with his voice to us now, you don't think (most) people would take notice? Are Christians now required to have a 'stronger' faith than those Christians would need around the time of Jesus?

His mercies are new every morning - therefore miracles happen every morning.

livingwaters
Oct 17th 2008, 03:02 AM
There are plenty of poor people in the West, also. And, I have seen some of my church family cured with no medical explanation given. There report was, "you have cancer and blah, blah, blah"...That person asked to be put on the prayer list and prayed for, annointed with oil, and, guess what, YOU GOT IT!!!!! They came back from the doctor with no sign of what they were diagnosed with...Alleluia... HEALED!!! Thank you LORD; you DID heal us by YOUR stripes!!!! Glory to God...:lol::pp

I think this nation needs to wake up and :pray::pray:ray, pray, pray. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever!!!!! WE have gotten so sidetracked with trival "stuff," that we do NOT pay attention to what GOD is doing in our Country and Nation....HE WILL HAVE THE LAST SAY.....AMEN, AMEN, AND AMEN!!!! OH, what a day that will be!!!!!!

And, yes, I am shouting (capital letters) cause I am so excited at what miracles my Lord has allowed me to see...I am quite sure there are many more stories just like this one. Glory to God.:pp

God Bless each and every one on this forum...May you all have a chance to witness some miracles...Amen:hug:

RationalMind
Oct 17th 2008, 12:53 PM
Wow after reading all the responses, I guess there really isn't a suitable answer to my question.

And I fail to see the logic with the answer that miracles are not "necessary" anymore. The reverse would be true. Twenty centuries have passed since the time of Jesus with no documented miracles. Aren't we a bit overdue? When 2000 years pass, wouldn't a little "reminder" be of some help, especially considering his own chosen people would revert back to their (evil?) ways shortly after seeing such miracles firsthand?

And to the person who said those who believed without seeing were more blessed, the Bible doesn't mention the idea of "better seats" in Heaven does it? I mean, you either get in or you don't. If someone born 2500 years ago believed because he saw God send down fire from the sky, and someone born now believes but has absolutely no firsthand evidence of miracles, doesn't that make his faith stronger than the first guy's? It would seem the further we get from the time of miracles, the more faith you would need to believe the Bible.

daughter
Oct 17th 2008, 01:27 PM
Actually, I've seen several miracles. But miracles of themselves won't bring people to God... having been with a man who was declared dead, then started singing, having seen a woman crippled by a stroke raise her arms up and start running round, I'm sure of miracles.

Yet other people who saw the same things refused to believe.

Jesus says "a wicked and perverse generation seeks after a sign." And it's true. Even Israel in the desert, fed miraculously, led by a pillar of fire and smoke, were rebellious and wouldn't believe. You'd think having been led through the red sea they'd believe. We're exactly the same. Miracles have no purpose if they're not going to lead people to salvation, and most people don't want to submit themselves to God, and will resist no matter what he does.

markdrums
Oct 17th 2008, 02:05 PM
Wow after reading all the responses, I guess there really isn't a suitable answer to my question.

And I fail to see the logic with the answer that miracles are not "necessary" anymore. The reverse would be true. Twenty centuries have passed since the time of Jesus with no documented miracles. Aren't we a bit overdue? When 2000 years pass, wouldn't a little "reminder" be of some help, especially considering his own chosen people would revert back to their (evil?) ways shortly after seeing such miracles firsthand?

And to the person who said those who believed without seeing were more blessed, the Bible doesn't mention the idea of "better seats" in Heaven does it? I mean, you either get in or you don't. If someone born 2500 years ago believed because he saw God send down fire from the sky, and someone born now believes but has absolutely no firsthand evidence of miracles, doesn't that make his faith stronger than the first guy's? It would seem the further we get from the time of miracles, the more faith you would need to believe the Bible.

Again, the purpose of "miracles" was to validate Jesus as the Messiah. God in the Flesh. After his ministry was complete, why would he need to continue performing "miracles" in public?
The 2 greatest miracles (& really, the only 2 necessary...) are: The Creation, and The Resurrection. Those 2 alone provide plenty of evidence if you're paying attention.
However, just like TODAY'S skeptics, many others were performed "as evidence" of Jesus being who he climed to be.

IF we started seeing fantastic miracles today, the skepticism would be just the same. There would be people discounting them as "trickery, illusion, slight of hand, cooidence.... etc".
The PROOF could hit them right between the eyes & they'd STILL ignore it.

Personally, I don't need to see some grand scale miracle in order to see the EVIDENCE already here.

There's nothing illogical about the reason why miracles were performed, when they were performed; and why we don't see them to that extent anymore. It would actually make LESS sense to contunie having them seeing how Jesus' ministy is complete.

Also, the comment about faith being STRONGER in the person who has NOT seen, is exactly right! There ARE degrees of rewards & punishments. Those who just scrape by, doing the least they can.... just enough to "make it" will have less rewards.
Those who are more brutally evil, (Hitler, Saddam Hussein, etc..) will have greater PUNISHMENT than say, the nice friendly guy next door, who was a "good man" but never accepted Christ.

Just like our judicial system, where the murderer receives more punishment than a guy who stole a bicycle. BOTH crimes are still crimes, but they have different degrees of judgment.

VerticalReality
Oct 17th 2008, 02:26 PM
Wow after reading all the responses, I guess there really isn't a suitable answer to my question.

I think the answers have been quite suitable, and documentation of miracles is not at all difficult to come by. The true question is whether or not you would believe said documentation even if it was provided for you.


And I fail to see the logic with the answer that miracles are not "necessary" anymore.

As you can see in this thread not everyone agrees with the poster above who states miracles are no longer needed and so on. If Jesus needed miracles, signs and wonders to verify His ministry what makes folks today believe that such things won't be needed in theirs? The Lord has no problem at all confirming his gospel through the power of His Spirit in my experience in the ministry. I've seen numerous miracles and healings that confirmed exactly what I was preaching.


The reverse would be true. Twenty centuries have passed since the time of Jesus with no documented miracles.

There are plenty of documented miracles. All you have to do is look.


Aren't we a bit overdue? When 2000 years pass, wouldn't a little "reminder" be of some help, especially considering his own chosen people would revert back to their (evil?) ways shortly after seeing such miracles firsthand?

Miracles and healings, in my experience and from what I see in the Word, are not for "reminders". They are for those who walk by faith and believe God. For the wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign but none will be given it except for the sign of the prophet Jonah just as Jesus proclaimed.


And to the person who said those who believed without seeing were more blessed, the Bible doesn't mention the idea of "better seats" in Heaven does it?

Who says He was just talking about in heaven? The Word of God declares that we can experience everlasting life now . . . not just in heaven. Just the opposite, if you are not experienceing everlasting life now you will experience death now. Those who do not know the Lord are dead in their sins right at this present moment. This is not just a death that happens later. They are dead now. Those who sow to the flesh will reap of the flesh, and those who sow to the Spirit will reap of the Spirit. If you sow of the flesh you will reap corruption. If you sow to the Spirit you will reap everlasting life. Sowing to the flesh produces many corrupt results. However, that's a long and detailed issue in and of itself. So, it is just as the individual above states. If a person walks by faith and not by sight sowing to the Spirit they will reap much blessing as our Lord as provided every spiritual blessing for those who are in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 1:3). These blessings manifest through faith in our Lord.

RationalMind
Oct 17th 2008, 05:08 PM
I am as open-minded as the next person. However, I do require some proof, whether it be direct, circumstantial, whatever. I mean, I think aliens COULD exist, but I do not have "faith" that they certainly do. The same with bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, etc.

I am open to any discussion of documented miracles in the past, let's say, 200 years. I am totally ignorant of any such miracles. And I hate defining all the terms, but by "documented" I mean proven by more than just hearsay or the ramblings of a few people. I mean, you saw where the Bigfoot hoax crumbled apart a few months ago based on similar evidence.

I am talking about a large number of people seeing it, or something caught on camera, or physical evidence of a miracle, or even a really interesting account based on various bits of circumstantial evidence. But not, "Mr. Smith said he saw his pig talk to him, but no one else was around."

VerticalReality
Oct 17th 2008, 05:50 PM
I am as open-minded as the next person. However, I do require some proof, whether it be direct, circumstantial, whatever. I mean, I think aliens COULD exist, but I do not have "faith" that they certainly do. The same with bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, etc.

I am open to any discussion of documented miracles in the past, let's say, 200 years. I am totally ignorant of any such miracles. And I hate defining all the terms, but by "documented" I mean proven by more than just hearsay or the ramblings of a few people. I mean, you saw where the Bigfoot hoax crumbled apart a few months ago based on similar evidence.

I am talking about a large number of people seeing it, or something caught on camera, or physical evidence of a miracle, or even a really interesting account based on various bits of circumstantial evidence. But not, "Mr. Smith said he saw his pig talk to him, but no one else was around."

I'm sure if you do a search you will come up with all sorts of accounts having to do with miracles, healings and so forth.

In all honesty, though . . . what do you expect any of us here on a message forum to provide you with? I cannot provide you with the medical records and documented history of my elders wife showing that she had cancer requiring surgery only to have it miraculously removed from her body leaving the doctors with no answers whatsoever. Why did this cancer leave her? Because they prayed over her and believed God. As Jesus said to the lady with the issue of blood, "Your faith has made you well." I cannot provide you with the medical records of a little girl that I and a minister friend of mine prayed for who had such severe foot problems that she was about to have to have surgery to repair it. In one prayer that took a matter of 10 seconds she got up and walked on that same foot with no pain whatsoever and no longer required surgery on her foot. This was a year ago and as of this past Wednesday night her foot is still perfectly well.

I have a whole laundry list of things like this . . . some even more miraculous than that. However, I'm not going to be able to provide you with any of that here. In all honesty, I have no desire to provide it anyway because I know the truth of the matter is that these sort of things aren't going to make you believe. There are plenty of other documented medical cases just like this that you can find on the net, but it seems folks see these sort of things and they just want to brush it aside as fiction. Those who are skeptical will remain skeptical because they just don't want to believe.

Maverick57
Oct 17th 2008, 06:44 PM
2 Cor 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight."

That was the first verse I read when I became a true born again Christian. IMHO it is the best explaination that can be offered to your question.

Also I think that Luke 11:29 applicable to the question.
"And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet."

th1bill
Oct 17th 2008, 07:53 PM
Daughter is on point, miracles happen every day but people do not believe and call them a coincidence. Here in my home town a gentleman that had been declared dead for several minutes by the EMTs was prayed over and hands were laid on and he lives. Then there is Don Piper, preacher, in Pasadena, Tx. that was declared dead by EMTs, State Troopers and a former Combat Medic, of Vietnam service. Don was dead for 90 minutes and yet he awoke, returning from the gates of Heaven and is still preaching. You just do not see miricles because someone has taught you an incorrect ideoligy and you are living your life based on that.

tt1106
Oct 17th 2008, 08:14 PM
I am as open-minded as the next person. However, I do require some proof, whether it be direct, circumstantial, whatever. I mean, I think aliens COULD exist, but I do not have "faith" that they certainly do. The same with bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, etc.

I am open to any discussion of documented miracles in the past, let's say, 200 years. I am totally ignorant of any such miracles. And I hate defining all the terms, but by "documented" I mean proven by more than just hearsay or the ramblings of a few people. I mean, you saw where the Bigfoot hoax crumbled apart a few months ago based on similar evidence.

I am talking about a large number of people seeing it, or something caught on camera, or physical evidence of a miracle, or even a really interesting account based on various bits of circumstantial evidence. But not, "Mr. Smith said he saw his pig talk to him, but no one else was around."

Prove that Miracles have not occurred.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/strange/news-article.aspx?storyid=97577

Ask the guy who lived whether he believes in Miracles.

What you ask for is not required by God to provide. You are free to doubt. I understadn that you will say this man was lucky. OK. SO is
this one:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=6573627a-3b08-4689-b8f5-334de675e66e&k=98941


or this one:

http://www.wmtw.com/mostpopular/14923187/detail.html

My God. HOW GREAT THOUGH ART!!!! You want proof of God, with some incontrovertible video of God in action. I don't require that proof. His Grace is sufficient. When my kids ask me if I love them. I say yes. They don't require me to prove it, because they have evidence of it in their lives. God is very evident in my life. You have to choose. I choose life.
you may choose as you like.

1of7000
Oct 19th 2008, 01:02 AM
He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. and what we see today is to be appreciated but is far below what God wants for us.

SeekingWisdom
Oct 19th 2008, 01:26 AM
If God sent down fire from the sky and let the heavens rumble with his voice to us now, you don't think (most) people would take notice?

No, I honestly don't think they would.

The arrogance, pride, and ignorance of people has been astounding me lately. God really has opened my eyes.

Did Pharaoh listen to Moses with all his miracles? Nope.

Then in Revelation it says how God's wrath will pour and people will still be cursing His name. I would think that people would repent and beg for forgiveness but that's not what it says.

Besides we are supposed to live by faith and not sight. However who says there are no miracles? Personally I have heard the voice of God one time. Not in my head, not in a dream, LITERALLY. But I'd rather not discuss the context of that experience.

RoadWarrior
Oct 20th 2008, 01:29 AM
I am as open-minded as the next person. However, I do require some proof, whether it be direct, circumstantial, whatever. I mean, I think aliens COULD exist, but I do not have "faith" that they certainly do. The same with bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, etc.
...

It is most disheartening that you lump your wisdom in not believing in aliens, bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster, etc., together with a disbelief in the God who created the universe and everything in it.

On the one hand, you show that you do indeed have a rational way of thinking. But then you go and ruin it by putting God into that same category.

Even Einstein acknowledged the reality of God. He knew quite well that the secrets he was seeking to unravel belonged to God, and he took this approach: "God is subtle, but He is not malicious."

Einsten knew that to understand the mysteries that belong to God, he needed to be patient and look for the subtle. But he also trusted that God would not hide things from him in a malicious way.

God is found by those who patiently and persistently seek Him, not by those who challenge Him to show Himself. He is continually at work all around you, and you will miss the proof of it every time, because you refuse to accept the subtle.

Here is what Jesus had to say about those who refused to accept His miracles in the days that He walked among men:

Mt 15:12-14
Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?"

Jesus replied, "Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be uprooted, so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch."

markinro
Oct 21st 2008, 02:40 AM
This is another huge one for me. In the Bible you have snakes talking, bushes talking, the world being flooded but all the animals everywhere from every continent being saved, seas parting, whales eating people who survive, people being raised from the dead, fire coming down from heaven, God stopping time, etc. etc. But nothing of any similar "miracle" has been documented for almost 2000 years. Why did God stop?

I mean, even when God did things like send fire down from the sky or make animals talk, his people would turn away from him shortly thereafter. So apparently they were not even convinced enough to follow him after seeing such wonders firsthand?? (they let's face it, people were even MORE superstituous back then). But we are expected to believe the Bible having seen absolutely nothing? How is that fair?

If God sent down fire from the sky and let the heavens rumble with his voice to us now, you don't think (most) people would take notice? Are Christians now required to have a 'stronger' faith than those Christians would need around the time of Jesus?

Have you visited the praise section ?

RationalMind
Oct 21st 2008, 01:31 PM
It is most disheartening that you lump your wisdom in not believing in aliens, bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster, etc., together with a disbelief in the God who created the universe and everything in it.

On the one hand, you show that you do indeed have a rational way of thinking. But then you go and ruin it by putting God into that same category.

Even Einstein acknowledged the reality of God. He knew quite well that the secrets he was seeking to unravel belonged to God, and he took this approach: "God is subtle, but He is not malicious."

Einsten knew that to understand the mysteries that belong to God, he needed to be patient and look for the subtle. But he also trusted that God would not hide things from him in a malicious way.

God is found by those who patiently and persistently seek Him, not by those who challenge Him to show Himself. He is continually at work all around you, and you will miss the proof of it every time, because you refuse to accept the subtle.

Here is what Jesus had to say about those who refused to accept His miracles in the days that He walked among men:

Mt 15:12-14
Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?"

Jesus replied, "Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be uprooted, so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch."

No offense, but you could justify believing in ANYTHING by saying, "look for subtle little hints." You or I could interpret anything to be a subtle hint. I mean, you could use that to support any religion, faith, philosophy, etc. Again, no offense, because I've enjoyed this talk, but I consider this part of the tortured reasoning that pushed me away in the first place.

RoadWarrior
Oct 21st 2008, 05:09 PM
No offense, but you could justify believing in ANYTHING by saying, "look for subtle little hints." You or I could interpret anything to be a subtle hint. I mean, you could use that to support any religion, faith, philosophy, etc. Again, no offense, because I've enjoyed this talk, but I consider this part of the tortured reasoning that pushed me away in the first place.

It is not "little hints" that I look for. It is like when I sit in my garden and stay quiet and still, I can hear the birds in the shrubs. After a while, they come out into the open and I get to see them. It is not about hints, it is about wanting to see what is there, and being still and quiet so that I can see.

I am sorry you got pushed away. :cry: I really do understand how that happens. People tend to be quite noisy and pushy with their doctrines much of the time.

God is much more interested in relationship than He is in doctrines. You might remember that when He spoke to Elijah (after E. ran from Jezebel) that He did not speak in the earthquake or the mighty rushing wind, but in a still, small voice.

That is what I am talking about.

Sold Out
Oct 21st 2008, 10:03 PM
This is another huge one for me. In the Bible you have snakes talking, bushes talking, the world being flooded but all the animals everywhere from every continent being saved, seas parting, whales eating people who survive, people being raised from the dead, fire coming down from heaven, God stopping time, etc. etc. But nothing of any similar "miracle" has been documented for almost 2000 years. Why did God stop?

I mean, even when God did things like send fire down from the sky or make animals talk, his people would turn away from him shortly thereafter. So apparently they were not even convinced enough to follow him after seeing such wonders firsthand?? (they let's face it, people were even MORE superstituous back then). But we are expected to believe the Bible having seen absolutely nothing? How is that fair?

If God sent down fire from the sky and let the heavens rumble with his voice to us now, you don't think (most) people would take notice? Are Christians now required to have a 'stronger' faith than those Christians would need around the time of Jesus?

I've seen a miracle before. So I know they happen today. In America we probably don't because we don't seem to 'need' God so much. We have medical science and a lot of technology.

Go to a third world country and you will see miracles.

Also, in Jesus' day He performed miracles to confirm who He was. There was also a lot of demonic activity before and during Jesus' time on earth. There seems to be a surge in demonic activity currently, so possibly Jesus will return soon?

Diggindeeper
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:14 AM
RationalMind, several years ago I was working at a job sewing and this large marble-ball size knot came up on the top of my hand, between the knuckles, where my fingers connect to my hand. It kept getting bigger, and within a few weeks was the size of a golf ball. It turned a purple color and hurt so bad that I finally could not use my hand. Even to eat! It was on my right hand and guess what--I am right handed.

It was hurting up my arm, to where it bends at the elbow. Still, I was trying to work because I needed the money. We needed the money. My husband and I have 4 children. One day at work I was in agony and went to the clinic to ask if they had an Ibuprophen or something for pain and an ace bandage. They didn't offer me one. They only said, "We are sending you home, and don't come back till the doctor takes care of that." So, that day I went to the doctor.

He examined the knot, took xrays and all that, then told me, "The only way to get rid of this kind of growth is to operate. But the trouble is, it grows something like 'sprouts' that have probably continued up your arm.
The sprouts can twine around ligaments and things. Thats how it is with this kind of growth." He had a name for the growth, but I can't recall what it was. Then he went on, "We may have to operate half way up your arm."

So, I went home to wait for him to call me on Monday morning to tell me what time to be at the hospital for surgery.

Now I need to add that my husband and I had been studying the Bible together each evening, and learning so, SO much. That night I told my husband, "I'm going to ask the Elders at church to pray for my hand tomorrow. Maybe its true what it says in the book of James. I got my Bible and opened it to James and read out loud, "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14-15)

My husband said, "Judy, you don't need to wait for someone to pray for you at church. I'll pray right now!" And he took my hand gently, held it, and started praying for my hand. Out of respect to him, I bowed my head and closed my eyes while he prayed.

But, after about a minute of praying, he suddenly stopped and got quiet. Then he said, "Its gone! Judy, its gone!" Well, that got my attention and I opened my eyes and looked down at my hand. And you know what? That purple growth, that big old thing that had hurt so very bad, was GONE! I'm telling you, RationalMind, it was GONE! AND MY HAND DID NOT HURT ANY MORE!

I looked at my husband with my mouth hanging open, and asked him, "How did YOU know it was gone before I did?"

And he said, "I felt it roll away, from under my hand, when I was praying. Judy, I felt it leave!"

Well sir, I was so excited that I could hardly wait till the next morning at church to testify and share what God had done for me. And I did. I shared in a testimony about my hand, and how God had literally healed me when my husband prayed, and that I intended to be at the doctor's office early Monday morning so he could re-exammine my hand. I KNEW I would not have to have surgery! (And I didn't have to, RationalMind!)

But I must add, sadly, that at that same church where I so eagerly testified, some Elders and Deacons pulled me aside to a corner of that church, and told me, "We don't know what happened with your hand. Maybe your husband 'squeezed' it out. But we want you to know that healing and miracles went out with the disciples," theyinformed me. "The Lord does not heal today like he did back then," they said.

But RationalMind, I told those men, "Sorry. You've done told me too late that God does not heal or do miracles today. He's done healed me, and there is no way you can convince me that He does not do things like that any more. He just did it, for me."

The next morning my doctor cancelled my hospital say! And wrote it in my medical records! So I have medical documentaion that my hand was healed. Please note that I did not have to go somewhere and hunt for some big-name-fail-healer! I was not on TV. There was no crowd stairing at me. I did not fall down. I did not even feel any "heat" or "electricity" or any such thing! I did not feel one thing when I was healed. But my husband did!

Now understand, that I had not long before that had to go through an operation, and I had not been healed. So I know that God does NOT heal every time. But He definitely never went out of the healing business! And Dear RationalMind, he does, indeed, still do miracles today!

Just thought I'd let you know what I know first-hand. We serve a mighty God, my friend. A MIGHTY GOD! He is not dead, and he is not sleeping. I know!

Gulah Papyrus
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:49 AM
How did you hear about Mr. Smith's pig? That was suposed to be a secret.:crazy:

I don't know of any. I have never seen one like you are describing, but I have witnessed many personal ones...mostly in the form of answers to prayer...sometimes almost instantly.:o

I understand your frustration, but if your looking for miracles, that right there is the reason God will not show you one. He has said all he needs to say in the Bible.

Luke 16:31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

If you did witness one, then you would just come up with a reason why you needed to see another one...and so on, and so on...the truth is either accepted or rejected, miracles of that kind were no longer neccessary after the ressurection...the story is finished(John 19:30)...the Word is complete...take it, or leave it...your choice.(take it! take it!)

There are miracles daily if you choose to see them, I know it sounds like a cop out answer to you, but, I mean, it's the truth...what are ya gonna do.

RationalMind
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:58 PM
I've seen a miracle before. So I know they happen today. In America we probably don't because we don't seem to 'need' God so much. We have medical science and a lot of technology.

Go to a third world country and you will see miracles.

Also, in Jesus' day He performed miracles to confirm who He was. There was also a lot of demonic activity before and during Jesus' time on earth. There seems to be a surge in demonic activity currently, so possibly Jesus will return soon?

Ok just so I understand, we in America have progressed to the point where we don't need God as much? So in 50 more years we will need him less? And in 50 more years we will need him even less? Using that rationale, pretty soon we wouldn't need him at all. And the rest of the world will eventually catch up and be in the same boat.

But if I go to a third world country where official records are going to be sketchier and people are less educated and more superstitious then THERE I am going to find proof of miracles? I see.

VerticalReality
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:11 PM
Ok just so I understand, we in America have progressed to the point where we don't need God as much? So in 50 more years we will need him less? And in 50 more years we will need him even less? Using that rationale, pretty soon we wouldn't need him at all. And the rest of the world will eventually catch up and be in the same boat.

But if I go to a third world country where official records are going to be sketchier and people are less educated and more superstitious then THERE I am going to find proof of miracles? I see.

I think what Sold Out is trying to communicate to you is that in the United States people put their faith more in themselves and their ability to provide their own needs rather than God. You go to third world countries and they don't have any other option but God. If they put their faith in medicine, well . . . being that they do not have the advanced medical technology that the United States has they are going to be in a very tough situation. These folks will either trust and believe God or they will continue on with whatever affliction they may have. And don't misunderstand . . . it's not that miracles/healings don't happen in the United States. They happen . . . and they happen often. Just look at Diggindeeper's testimony given for your benefit.

But your assumption is the exact opposite. America needs God more now than ever. Problem is . . . being that this country is one of the most godless countries on the face of the earth you aren't going to find God moving as much amongst them.

RationalMind
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:35 PM
I think what Sold Out is trying to communicate to you is that in the United States people put their faith more in themselves and their ability to provide their own needs rather than God. You go to third world countries and they don't have any other option but God. If they put their faith in medicine, well . . . being that they do not have the advanced medical technology that the United States has they are going to be in a very tough situation. These folks will either trust and believe God or they will continue on with whatever affliction they may have. And don't misunderstand . . . it's not that miracles/healings don't happen in the United States. They happen . . . and they happen often. Just look at Diggindeeper's testimony given for your benefit.

But your assumption is the exact opposite. America needs God more now than ever. Problem is . . . being that this country is one of the most godless countries on the face of the earth you aren't going to find God moving as much amongst them.

So people in poor countries put faith in God because their lives are crappy and so they figure 'why not?' That is not exactly a glowing endorsement. But I think people do tend to turn to religion when they have nothing else going for them - hence why a lot of felons, alcoholics, people who have hit rock bottom might be attracted to it. I know at the last church I attended almost everyone I spoke with had some sort of horrible story to tell.

VerticalReality
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:42 PM
So people in poor countries put faith in God because their lives are crappy and so they figure 'why not?' That is not exactly a glowing endorsement.

It's not a glowing endorsement for humanity . . . I agree. Folks tend to want to reject God as long as they think they don't need Him. As soon as something bad happens or their life is in shambles they all of a sudden want God to interject. Being that Americans for the most part are deceived into thinking that they are in need of nothing . . . well, they just don't seek God as others do.


But I think people do tend to turn to religion when they have nothing else going for them - hence why a lot of felons, alcoholics, people who have hit rock bottom might be attracted to it. I know at the last church I attended almost everyone I spoke with had some sort of horrible story to tell.

True. Most folks have to be seriously humbled before they will surrender their lives to God's will. It's those who arrogantly think they have everything under control who will have the most trouble submitting to God and His way of doing things.

Gulah Papyrus
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:12 PM
So people in poor countries put faith in God because their lives are crappy and so they figure 'why not?' That is not exactly a glowing endorsement. But I think people do tend to turn to religion when they have nothing else going for them - hence why a lot of felons, alcoholics, people who have hit rock bottom might be attracted to it. I know at the last church I attended almost everyone I spoke with had some sort of horrible story to tell.RM, I will have to agree to disagree with my fellow brother and sisters in Christ on this one. The idea that there aren't miracles here and there are there doesn't work for me.

I stand by my earlier post. I don't think miracles like the kind you are asking about happen anymore. There are miracles in life if you choose to recognize them, but the next miracle of the magnitude being discussed in this thread will be when Jesus Christ returns to take his children home.:)

apothanein kerdos
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:28 PM
This is another huge one for me. In the Bible you have snakes talking, bushes talking, the world being flooded but all the animals everywhere from every continent being saved, seas parting, whales eating people who survive, people being raised from the dead, fire coming down from heaven, God stopping time, etc. etc. But nothing of any similar "miracle" has been documented for almost 2000 years. Why did God stop?

I mean, even when God did things like send fire down from the sky or make animals talk, his people would turn away from him shortly thereafter. So apparently they were not even convinced enough to follow him after seeing such wonders firsthand?? (they let's face it, people were even MORE superstituous back then). But we are expected to believe the Bible having seen absolutely nothing? How is that fair?

If God sent down fire from the sky and let the heavens rumble with his voice to us now, you don't think (most) people would take notice? Are Christians now required to have a 'stronger' faith than those Christians would need around the time of Jesus?

Actually, within the Bible the miracles become less and less. They are far more extravagant in the first five books of the Bible than they are in the latter books of the Bible (chronologically speaking). The reason for this is simple: the people weren't any more superstitious than we are, therefore they needed greater signs to prove there was a supernatural occurrence going on. As time went on, trust was built, words were composed, and it did not become necessary for God to prove Himself in such a divine manner.

Furthermore, miracles do happen today, just as they did in the Bible. That's why these miracles were written down - they were abnormal. It's not as though a person was cured of leprosy every day. The miracles were rare during these times and the only reason they seem abundant is because they composed a significant view within the view of the historical writers.

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