I understand that for Christians morals and God are the same. Whatever God says is automatically moral, i.e., the right thing to do. There is no one else/nothing else to consult. Essentially that's what I asked in the thread about doing whatever God told you to do, regardless of whether YOU thought it was immoral.

So my question is, do you think nonbelievers can be moral people? Can someone reject God and still be a moral person? If so, where do his morals come from? Are there some universal truths that exist even outside of a belief in God?

For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves; who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another, in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:13-16)

For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves; who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another, in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:13-16)

I have to admit I am confused by that verse. Can you explain?

I have to admit I am confused by that verse. Can you explain?

It means that even those who weren't given the law of God still have that law placed on their hearts. Their conscience also bears witness with that law, and therefore all people regardless of whether or not they are a Christian know the difference between right and wrong and what is moral or immoral. When folks live immorally it's not like they don't know it. I knew even when I wasn't a Christian that when I did something wrong it was immoral. I also had a sense of morality as well. There were certain things I just wouldn't do because I thought they were immoral.

It means that even those who weren't given the law of God still have that law placed on their hearts. Their conscience also bears witness with that law, and therefore all people regardless of whether or not they are a Christian know the difference between right and wrong and what is moral or immoral. When folks live immorally it's not like they don't know it. I knew even when I wasn't a Christian that when I did something wrong it was immoral. I also had a sense of morality as well. There were certain things I just wouldn't do because I thought they were immoral.

I don't get it. Plenty of people don't think there is anything immoral about homosexuality or sex period outside marriage. What would that verse say about that? That those people are influenced by Satan or something?

I believe it answers your question.
Israel received the law in the form of the ten commandments, but all people have a moral law and their own conscience convicts them, because the laws on which the ten commandments hang are the two great commandments to love God with all your heart and to love your fellow man as you love yourself.

You'll find this moral law exists in all nations, even the most primitive and isolated tribes of the world have basic laws against murder, theft etc.

So according to the Bible the answer is yes, it is not only possible for a non-believer to be moral in the sense of knowing right from wrong, but a definite fact. It is also according to this moral conscience that all men will be judged by Jesus Christ on the day of judgement when we all stand before Him.

Blessings

V.

Ahh, Vertical Reality already answered you...

I don't get it. Plenty of people don't think there is anything immoral about homosexuality or sex period outside marriage. What would that verse say about that? That those people are influenced by Satan or something?

I used to say I didn't have a problem with homosexuality.

I used to make the same stupid statement that most others make . . .

"I don't care what they do in their personal life as long as they aren't bugging me."

However, deep down I knew it wasn't right, and I knew it wasn't natural.

The same for sex before marriage as well. I would say stupid things like, "There's nothing wrong with it."

However, deep down I knew it was wrong.

However, I would like to add that even though we do know those things are wrong there does come a point to where we are so hardened in our heart to these things that we will be given over to those deceived thoughts completely . . .

Ephesians 4:17-19
This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Sure they can: the question is why be moral?

Sure they can: the question is why be moral?

Because human beings have intrinsic value. I know that is a foreign concept in the Bible but it is what I believe.

Put it like this, cultures loooooooooong before Moses brought down the Ten Commandments knew it was wrong to murder or steal or lie. Its not like those were ground breaking moral truths unknown at the time.

I understand that for Christians morals and God are the same. Whatever God says is automatically moral, i.e., the right thing to do. There is no one else/nothing else to consult. Essentially that's what I asked in the thread about doing whatever God told you to do, regardless of whether YOU thought it was immoral.

So my question is, do you think nonbelievers can be moral people? Can someone reject God and still be a moral person? If so, where do his morals come from? Are there some universal truths that exist even outside of a belief in God?

For all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Because human beings have intrinsic value. I know that is a foreign concept in the Bible but it is what I believe.

Put it like this, cultures loooooooooong before Moses brought down the Ten Commandments knew it was wrong to murder or steal or lie. Its not like those were ground breaking moral truths unknown at the time.

Yes, and God has existed for all eternity. Your point is moot. I suppose you think evolution is the source of these intrinsic values ?

I understand that for Christians morals and God are the same. Whatever God says is automatically moral, i.e., the right thing to do. There is no one else/nothing else to consult. Essentially that's what I asked in the thread about doing whatever God told you to do, regardless of whether YOU thought it was immoral.

So my question is, do you think nonbelievers can be moral people? Can someone reject God and still be a moral person? If so, where do his morals come from? Are there some universal truths that exist even outside of a belief in God?

God has given a conscience to every single person on earth, to be able to know right from wrong. So morals have always been a part of us, whether or not we know and acknowledge God. So yes, nonbelievers can be moral people, by being obedient to their conscience. Believing or not believing does not cancel out the universal truths, which belong to God whether or not you realize that they do.

Being a morally upright person is not the same thing as having a relationship with the living God. It makes you a good person in society, and I want you for my neighbor even if you don't have faith in God. I prefer a moral person over an immoral one any day! It makes society much more pleasant and peaceful.

Holding on to morality for the sake of morality is not easy, however. Here is what has happened in the world:

Ro 1:18-25
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because

what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
NKJV

Because human beings have intrinsic value.

In a naturalist world view I must beg the question: why do humans have intrinsic value?

In the 6th chapter of Matthew Jesus says several times "they have their reward" speaking of those who do things for what they receive in the here and now. I believe that people who live "good" lives likewise receive their rewards here and now if they do not also know and serve God. Every one that fails to go through the strait and narrow gate will be perish [note NO eternal torment].

Remember that Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God had/has all of that same knowledge but knew just exactly what to do with it and when. Man with that knowledge is in trouble because he does not know what to do with this knowledge of right and wrong. Man continues to pervert his knowledge and come up with many things which are not what God desires of us. When we think of those many things which are oppoed to God we usually think of the worst that man can imagine, but even a "moral" life in this world alone without God is no Life at all in the eyes of God, but He allows it to happen. There have been and are "good" people who have not served God. They will get their measure of enjoyment and satisfaction out of this natural life and will return to the dust forever. That is the end of them other than whatever "good" memories some may have of their "good" works while they were still walking around.

Remember that Jesus said that "there is none good but one, that is God" [Matt 19:17]. I see in this that all that are in this world that have "good" in them have something of God's "good" in them. Everyone started out with a little of God's good. How each one focuses that good and uses it is up to him as it was up to the possessors of the talents [Matt 25:14ff] to determine how they used what they were given. The decision is ours and the resulting rewards are ours.


I understand that for Christians morals and God are the same. Whatever God says is automatically moral, i.e., the right thing to do. There is no one else/nothing else to consult. Essentially that's what I asked in the thread about doing whatever God told you to do, regardless of whether YOU thought it was immoral.

So my question is, do you think nonbelievers can be moral people? Can someone reject God and still be a moral person? If so, where do his morals come from? Are there some universal truths that exist even outside of a belief in God?

I understand that for Christians morals and God are the same. Whatever God says is automatically moral, i.e., the right thing to do. There is no one else/nothing else to consult. Essentially that's what I asked in the thread about doing whatever God told you to do, regardless of whether YOU thought it was immoral.

So my question is, do you think nonbelievers can be moral people? Can someone reject God and still be a moral person? If so, where do his morals come from? Are there some universal truths that exist even outside of a belief in God?

Absolutely! A non-believer is not only moral, but has no choice but to accept some moral views. The reason is simple - he is made in the image of God and can't escape this immorality.

The problem for the atheist or non-theist is he lacks proper justification for his belief in morality. One would have to believe Nietzsche's "Will to Power" in order to be honest with an atheistic justification for morality, but even then no one can live that way because it contradicts the image we're made in.

Because human beings have intrinsic value. I know that is a foreign concept in the Bible but it is what I believe.

This isn't a foreign concept to the Bible at all. The entire reason human beings have intrinsic value is because God created us in His own image. Apart from a belief in the biblical account of creation, human beings would have no value.

Where do you believe this innate sense of morality originated if you do not believe in God?

This isn't a foreign concept to the Bible at all. The entire reason human beings have intrinsic value is because God created us in His own image. Apart from a belief in the biblical account of creation, human beings would have no value.

Where do you believe this innate sense of morality originated if you do not believe in God?

Well first of all, even a theist would have to concede that morality could have originated from a DIFFERENT God. So that doesn't really support Christianity or any specific religion for that matter.

As for someone who does not believe in ANY God, I get my morals from myself. I know its wrong to kill little kids. I know its wrong to cheat people. I do not need a God to tell me these things. In fact, I have read many things that God ordered in the Bible that I find morally repulsive - so not only am I NOT getting my morals from God, my morals are totally different than His.

Well first of all, even a theist would have to concede that morality could have originated from a DIFFERENT God. So that doesn't really support Christianity or any specific religion for that matter.

As for someone who does not believe in ANY God, I get my morals from myself. I know its wrong to kill little kids. I know its wrong to cheat people. I do not need a God to tell me these things. In fact, I have read many things that God ordered in the Bible that I find morally repulsive - so not only am I NOT getting my morals from God, my morals are totally different than His.

You have the morals that you do because you were made in the image of God and He has written His moral law upon your heart. I don't debate that you are a creature of morality, like every other man. I will say that without God you have no reason for being a moral creature. Evolution offers no explanation for morality. Non-Christians can certainly be moral creature (they are in fact) but they simply have no rational explanation for being one. None that I've yet to hear, anyway. I'd love to hear your opinions on that.

Chris

Well first of all, even a theist would have to concede that morality could have originated from a DIFFERENT God. So that doesn't really support Christianity or any specific religion for that matter.

As for someone who does not believe in ANY God, I get my morals from myself. I know its wrong to kill little kids. I know its wrong to cheat people. I do not need a God to tell me these things. In fact, I have read many things that God ordered in the Bible that I find morally repulsive - so not only am I NOT getting my morals from God, my morals are totally different than His.

Actually, I believe morality can only come from Theism. Morality can only be absolute if it is external to human thinking and experience. This would mean morality must be discovered and illuminated to humans, something innate, something a priori (to an extent). For a priori beliefs to exist, some form of Theism must be true.

You say it's wrong to do those things, but why? That's the point I was getting at when I gave you my answer - you have no proper justification for saying why something is moral. Me saying "kill children" is no different than you saying, "don't kill children." Both lack justification and come down to our individual feelings on whether or not we should kill children.

This, of course, is if we use a non-theistic method for determining what is and is not moral.

... I get my morals from myself. ..

I'm sorry, this just strikes me as very funny. Did you also get your hair, your eyes, your bones, your internal organs ... from yourself?

Did you get your language, your ability to read, from yourself?

No one has ever taught you anything? You sprang into being of your own accord?

You are truly an amazing being. I'm quite sure, though, that you must not have originated on this planet. :hmm:

Please tell us more. This is a story I have never heard before.

Well first of all, even a theist would have to concede that morality could have originated from a DIFFERENT God. So that doesn't really support Christianity or any specific religion for that matter.

As for someone who does not believe in ANY God, I get my morals from myself. I know its wrong to kill little kids. I know its wrong to cheat people. I do not need a God to tell me these things. In fact, I have read many things that God ordered in the Bible that I find morally repulsive - so not only am I NOT getting my morals from God, my morals are totally different than His.
It's funny because I almost know too much about you. Clearly you used to be (at least appeared to be) a Christian. Even involved in Ministry. Now you are not Christian, and you are now asserting that your moral code came from you. I can't imagine how you can make that determination, since you used to be a Christian.
You used to believe, now you don't so you have reasoned that your moral law is self driven. I would say that as a rational mind, the best you could hope for is asserting that your sense of morality is based upon environment and upbringing and other social stimulus. But in your case, that would include Christianity, so you are biased.
Unless I missed the part where you were a Christian. I thought I read that but there are so many different Atheist debates going on it's making my head spin. LOL.

Well first of all, even a theist would have to concede that morality could have originated from a DIFFERENT God. So that doesn't really support Christianity or any specific religion for that matter.

As for someone who does not believe in ANY God, I get my morals from myself. I know its wrong to kill little kids. I know its wrong to cheat people. I do not need a God to tell me these things. In fact, I have read many things that God ordered in the Bible that I find morally repulsive - so not only am I NOT getting my morals from God, my morals are totally different than His.

Ah yes, secular humanism. Satan's ULTIMATE deception and those foolish enough to be deceived.

As for someone who does not believe in ANY God, I get my morals from myself. I know its wrong to kill little kids. I know its wrong to cheat people. I do not need a God to tell me these things.

Without God those aren't morals - just preferences. They would be no more "right" or "wrong" than someone who thinks it's OK to kill little babies and cheat people. Morality just becomes whatever works best for the individual.

Without God there can be no morality, just conceit
masquerading as righteousness.

I understand that for Christians morals and God are the same. Whatever God says is automatically moral, i.e., the right thing to do. There is no one else/nothing else to consult. Essentially that's what I asked in the thread about doing whatever God told you to do, regardless of whether YOU thought it was immoral.

So my question is, do you think nonbelievers can be moral people? Can someone reject God and still be a moral person? If so, where do his morals come from? Are there some universal truths that exist even outside of a belief in God?

In my opinion, objective morality exists and in general all human beings have moral sensibilities, whether they are religious or not, whether they are believers or not.

When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, the knowledge of good and evil was imparted to all mankind, through them.

So, knowing the difference is an intrinsic part of who we are as humans, and children of God.
Even when we do not know God, we know what is right and wrong.
Many learn to ignore the notion, but deep down, inside, we know.