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swarr
Nov 13th 2008, 02:38 PM
in the event that our government would ever make that a requirement?

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 02:49 PM
Titus 3:1

Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,

Romans 13:1-2

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves

I would say based on these verses, yes :)

Eaglenester
Nov 13th 2008, 03:12 PM
Titus 3:1

Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,

Romans 13:1-2

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves

I would say based on these verses, yes :)

So true - but many will find a way around Scripture.

Add to that:

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

(Ephesians 6:12)


And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

(Ephesians 6:17-18)


Our fight is not physical
Our weapons are the Word of Elohim and prayer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

As I asked in another thread, which no one addressed:
Is the right to bear arms a christian issue?

third hero
Nov 13th 2008, 07:04 PM
And so, the local government, led by the government that the Beast controls, tells you to hand over your firearms, and then tells you to bow before a statue of the Beast and take His Mark, you do still honor the authorities then?

Ichiban
Nov 13th 2008, 07:06 PM
The right to bear arms, in my opinion, is not a spiritual issue. It's a "practical" one that is at the heart of the American debate. If government required that you give up your guns, Biblically speaking, it won't affect your worship with God so you need to give them up.

To put you all at ease though, this won't happen in our life time, now that the supreme court made it legal to carry firearms in D.C. (even if it's only a revolver). It's more likely they'll ban a certain kind of gun.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 07:18 PM
And so, the local government, led by the government that the Beast controls, tells you to hand over your firearms,

I would have to hand them over

and then tells you to bow before a statue of the Beast and take His Mark,

then they would have asked me to disobey God and I would not submit to their authority

you do still honor the authorities then?

It depends on what their asking

:hug: blessings

third hero
Nov 13th 2008, 07:28 PM
It depends on what their asking

:hug: blessings

Good answer. A really good answer!

quiet dove
Nov 13th 2008, 07:56 PM
Going to put this over in Contro guys.

dan
Nov 13th 2008, 10:55 PM
So true - but many will find a way around Scripture.

Add to that:

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

(Ephesians 6:12)


And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

(Ephesians 6:17-18)


Our fight is not physical
Our weapons are the Word of Elohim and prayer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

As I asked in another thread, which no one addressed:
Is the right to bear arms a christian issue?

...The Right To Keep And Bear Arms IS a Christian Value. That's why it's in the Constitution Of A Christian Nation:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.-The Second Ammendment of The Bill of Rights of The United States Constitution.

LK 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his court, those things are in peace which he possesseth.

LK 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
LK 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

DAN 11:22 And the arms of the fighter shall be overcome before his face, and shall be broken; yea also the prince of the covenant. (Douay)

DAN 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
DAN 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
DAN 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
DAN 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

LK 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
LK 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Many used to know that, "To bring peace, prepare for war". And now, for us also, this knowledge is hid from our eyes.

Rufus_1611
Nov 13th 2008, 11:07 PM
The right to bear arms, in my opinion, is not a spiritual issue. It's a "practical" one that is at the heart of the American debate. If government required that you give up your guns, Biblically speaking, it won't affect your worship with God so you need to give them up. Without the second amendment there is no protecting the first amendment and this does affect your worship of God.


To put you all at ease though, this won't happen in our life time, now that the supreme court made it legal to carry firearms in D.C. (even if it's only a revolver). It's more likely they'll ban a certain kind of gun. I wouldn't be so sure.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Nov 13th 2008, 11:27 PM
Hello ƒєℓℓσωѕ,


LK 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
(Ephesians 6:17-18)

Bible explains it self.


ƒαяєуєωєℓℓ

Eaglenester
Nov 13th 2008, 11:51 PM
...The Right To Keep And Bear Arms IS a Christian Value. That's why it's in the Constitution Of A Christian Nation:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.-The Second Ammendment of The Bill of Rights of The United States Constitution.

LK 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his court, those things are in peace which he possesseth.

LK 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
LK 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

DAN 11:22 And the arms of the fighter shall be overcome before his face, and shall be broken; yea also the prince of the covenant. (Douay)

DAN 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
DAN 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
DAN 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
DAN 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

LK 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
LK 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Many used to know that, "To bring peace, prepare for war". And now, for us also, this knowledge is hid from our eyes.

Sorry - we see America (NOT and NEVER was a "christian" nation), Scripture, Yahweh's Kingdom from totally different perspectives.

Rebellion and disobedience to govt are NOT Messiah's ways.

Your looking at and fighting the WRONG battle.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Nov 14th 2008, 12:01 AM
I can not imagine this,

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/1827/jesusgun1qj8.th.jpg (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jesusgun1qj8.jpg)

But this:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:38-45.

ƒαяєуєωєℓℓ

EarlyCall
Nov 14th 2008, 12:18 AM
Titus 3:1

Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,

Romans 13:1-2

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves

I would say based on these verses, yes :)

But if our government ever did this, what authority do they do it under? Certainly not our founders or constitution. And our constitution is supposed to be the ultimate authority. So what will you do with that? Obey a current false authority that has no authority under the greater authority?

You may just have to make this up as you go. Which would be much like our current leaders and courts do.

Now I personally would give them up if I had them based on God's word, but the authorities would be wrong and they would be violating the greater authority, namely the constitution, which by the way they swear to uphold. Not swear to change, manipulate, twist or pervert but to simply uphold.

dan
Nov 14th 2008, 12:56 AM
I can not imagine this,

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/1827/jesusgun1qj8.th.jpg (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jesusgun1qj8.jpg)

But this:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:38-45.

ƒαяєуєωєℓℓ

Jesus has no need of weapons, but you do and He said so. That's right, the Son of God told you that you possessing a sword is more important than your possession of a coat. I'll bet you have a coat, don't you?

Also, you do not appear to understand all the possible implications of the "eye for an eye" statement IMO. Try this:

The original OT verse is:

DEUT 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Jesus mentioned eyes and teeth, which I agree are changed. However, He left life, hand, and foot unchanged. Therefore, you will take a hand for a hand and a foot for a foot and a life for a life.

If you can only accept part of the NT, does that only make you part Christian?

Eaglenester
Nov 14th 2008, 01:28 AM
Jesus has no need of weapons, but you do and He said so. That's right, the Son of God told you that you possessing a sword is more important than your possession of a coat. I'll bet you have a coat, don't you?


Not in context:

He is talking about fulfilling Prophecy, and when the disciples said they had 2 among ALL of the, His answer was "that is ENOUGH"

Balance your perspective of that verse with:

Then Yahushua said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.

(Matthew 26:52)


He is CLEARLY not telling us to arm ourselves and fight a physical fight.

Goes TOTALLY against the common threads in the Scripture of loving you enemies, mercy, sacrifice, forgiveness.

Look at Stephen when they stoned him.

There are NO examples in NT Scriptures to support your perspective.

All the apostles but John died a martyrs death.

Look at Paul's death - he went willingly to die just to beable to present the Gospel.

When Peter told us to obey governmental authorities, Rome was an occupying force in Israel.
The Roman government was persecuting, torturing, cruelly killing (like dipping them in hot wax and setting them on fire) followers of Messiah.
They didn't resist and fight - should we be ANY different?

Eaglenester
Nov 14th 2008, 01:33 AM
The original OT verse is:

DEUT 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Jesus mentioned eyes and teeth, which I agree are changed. However, He left life, hand, and foot unchanged. Therefore, you will take a hand for a hand and a foot for a foot and a life for a life.

If you can only accept part of the NT, does that only make you part Christian?

You are also misapplying this verse - it's not talking about an individual on his own, read the verses BEFORE to get the context.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Nov 14th 2008, 02:02 AM
Hello Dan,

I would like to quote some words of Jesus when about to be put to dead:

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36

Now a little from the Old Testament:

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8,9.

God`s ways are which Jesus came to teach us right!
Now If God would kill He would not kill even as man do it.

Do you think DΛП, that God would break his own law? and yet require from us to keep it?

He would be contradicting Himself, wouldn`t He?
If one rejects God`s word then the protection from God, is gone, because we ourselves don`t want it, and now I will protect my self, with :

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/2862/shotks7.gif

Such as the Israelites just after God had shown His great power to save them who draw night to Him. The did go out from Egypt not by weapons as Moses thought killing the egyptian, but by the power of God, as shown in the plagues, then in the red sea, :

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Zechariah 4:6.

The waters split, and God`s people passed through but the Egyptian army was drawn, and after seeing the Salvation from God, they chose their own way stead of God`s. They did not brought swords from Egypt, and between the red sea and the Mount where God gave them the commandments there was not even a store of weapons, etc. So where did they got the weapons? they got them from the dead egyptians which the water threw to the shore. And God respected them because, He doesn`t use the force, nor force His presence where it is not wanted.

The same with Peter when Judas betrayed Jesus to the guards, we read:

Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? Luke 18:10,11.

Now from Luke`s point of view/perspective/angle:

And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.

And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him. Luke 22:50,51.

Jesus said: "My kingdom is not of this world" Then if His kingdom would have been of this world, maybe He would have allowed and rejoiced when Petter cutt off the ear from Malchus. Or maybe even would have let Petter to cut to pieces to Malchus.

But that is not the character of Jesus, did He use force? or congratulated Peter for what he had done?

The Lord bless you my friend

cnw
Nov 14th 2008, 03:30 AM
If it is not a sin issue then I would say we have to obey our authority God has put over us as many others have already said that. When it gets right down to it my question would be why would they do that? It is a right to bear arms and they would have to change the constitution to force that and that would be an overwhelming amount of votes.

Lamplighter
Nov 14th 2008, 04:52 AM
If the government said it's now law to get rid of your guns, you should obey the law. That being said, I'm not giving my guns up law or no law. Sometimes I speed driving to work, though it's against the law as well.;)

Eaglenester
Nov 14th 2008, 05:02 AM
If the government said it's now law to get rid of your guns, you should obey the law. That being said, I'm not giving my guns up law or no law. Sometimes I speed driving to work, though it's against the law as well.;)

So your personal desires matter more than Yahweh's Word and Commands?

THAT'S what's wrong with christianity.

JesusPhreak27
Nov 14th 2008, 04:08 PM
Sorry - we see America (NOT and NEVER was a "christian" nation), Scripture, Yahweh's Kingdom from totally different perspectives.

Rebellion and disobedience to govt are NOT Messiah's ways.

Your looking at and fighting the WRONG battle.

you do realize that up to about 1945 this was a Christian country right? You also realize that the first school books used Bible verses to teach reading and that the original Congress did state that we are to be a Christian country right?

Yes the first amendment does state that there will be no NATL relifion but originally this was not meant to say that it wouldnt be Christian, Buddhist or ortherwise...... what this amendment in its original context meant was that there would be no one DENOMINATION that was to be considered the NATL denomination, i.e Presbyterian, Catholic, Lutheran etc). We were ALWAYS intended to be a Christian nation.

The problem is that post 1945 (that year or somewhere around there the Supremem Court for the first time ruled that a prayer could not be said in school) schools have gotten away from teaching the TRUE history of the founding of our nation.

Just like the so called "wall of seperation" of church and state. Tell me where in the Constitution it is stated. You cant!

Why?

Because its in a reply letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut regarding their fear that a CERTSIN DENOMINATION would be chosen as the NATL DENOMINATION!

This is the TRUTH about the founding of our nation! People forget (or have never been taught) that the Pilgrims left England for that VERY same reason! The King established the Church of England as the ONLY church in England. All other churches were either dibanded or met under cover / secretly. The original settlers came here to establish a "City on a Hill" a nation that would not be forced to have one natl denomination.

The original intent of this nation was, then, to be a Christian nation. Not what we have today.

Eaglenester
Nov 14th 2008, 05:11 PM
you do realize that up to about 1945 this was a Christian country right?

A delusion.

America may have settled as a christian land - but the forming of this as a Nation WASN'T.

It was formed in rebellion against England and disobedience to Scripture.

What was the cry to starting the revolutionary war?
Taxation without representation.

What event led up to it?
Boston tea party?

Who the the 1st President?
A MASON

Hardly the roots for a "christian" nation.

The revolutionary war was hardly fought over anything as noble as freedom of religion.

War and disobedience to Yahweh is NOT how a "christian" nation is formed.

Killing native peoples to conquer their land is NOT how a "christian" nation is formed.

The ONLY nation Yahweh formed was Israel.

America is NO different than the other nations out there, a work of men operating in satan's kingdom.

winwun
Nov 14th 2008, 05:19 PM
The Constitution and Bill Of Rights have already been trampled to death, and the courts have upheld it.

If a policeman tells you to walk a straight line to check sobriety, he is violating your 5th Amendment rights, by forcing you to give testimony against yourself . . .

ChristianKnight
Nov 15th 2008, 11:10 AM
I have not paid for my guns to hand them over. I'd rather die with a gun then allow the government to take them away.

Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 01:07 PM
I have not paid for my guns to hand them over. I'd rather die with a gun then allow the government to take them away.

So your guns matter more to you than Messiah and obedience to Him and Scripture?

EarlyCall
Nov 15th 2008, 03:07 PM
A delusion.

America may have settled as a christian land - but the forming of this as a Nation WASN'T.

It was formed in rebellion against England and disobedience to Scripture.

What was the cry to starting the revolutionary war?
Taxation without representation.

What event led up to it?
Boston tea party?

Who the the 1st President?
A MASON

Hardly the roots for a "christian" nation.

The revolutionary war was hardly fought over anything as noble as freedom of religion.

War and disobedience to Yahweh is NOT how a "christian" nation is formed.

Killing native peoples to conquer their land is NOT how a "christian" nation is formed.

The ONLY nation Yahweh formed was Israel.

America is NO different than the other nations out there, a work of men operating in satan's kingdom.

You might want to back up a bit because long before the Revolutionary war, long before rebellion against taxation without representation there were those coming here and they were Christians. You skipped over them completely.

For example:

Actual Transcription: William Bradford's "Of Plimoth Plantation."
In ye name of God, Amen. We whose names are underwriten, the loyall subjects of our dread soveraigne Lord King James by ye grace of God, of Great Britaine, Franc, & Ireland king, defender of ye faith, &c.
Haveing undertaken, for ye glorie of God, and advancemente of ye Christian faith,

Now while this nation has had its problems, done its wrongs, as though any nation that ever existed is not guilty of the same, this nation has I believe sent more missionaries, more Bibles and done more to spread the gospel of Christ than any nation ever there was. Apparently God has well used this nation for His purposes. I don't think that should be over-looked.

Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 03:26 PM
You might want to back up a bit because long before the Revolutionary war, long before rebellion against taxation without representation there were those coming here and they were Christians. You skipped over them completely.

For example:

Actual Transcription: William Bradford's "Of Plimoth Plantation."
In ye name of God, Amen. We whose names are underwriten, the loyall subjects of our dread soveraigne Lord King James by ye grace of God, of Great Britaine, Franc, & Ireland king, defender of ye faith, &c.
Haveing undertaken, for ye glorie of God, and advancemente of ye Christian faith,

Now while this nation has had its problems, done its wrongs, as though any nation that ever existed is not guilty of the same, this nation has I believe sent more missionaries, more Bibles and done more to spread the gospel of Christ than any nation ever there was. Apparently God has well used this nation for His purposes. I don't think that should be over-looked.


NO I DIDN'T

Reread the begining of my post.

This NATION didn't send the missionaries - people WITHIN the nation did.
BIG difference.
And many missionaries were more about spreading culture and religion than Messiah.

There are christians operating within this country (a small minority) but that doesn't make it a christian nation.

Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 04:45 PM
I have not paid for my guns to hand them over. I'd rather die with a gun then allow the government to take them away.

I can see the news coverage now.

All over the country, wacko christians holed up in their houses with swat teams outside.

Some of them may even end up being pastors or elders.

Gun battle ensues, with the christians either be hauled away after be gassed and such, or being brought out in body bags.

News teams all camped out with their cameras, interviewing neighbors.

Such a great witness for Messiah - They stood FIRM in their belief of right to bear arms.

:help:

EarlyCall
Nov 15th 2008, 08:33 PM
NO I DIDN'T

Reread the begining of my post.

This NATION didn't send the missionaries - people WITHIN the nation did.
BIG difference.
And many missionaries were more about spreading culture and religion than Messiah.

There are christians operating within this country (a small minority) but that doesn't make it a christian nation.

Yes, I did miss the opening line of your post. Still, when our founders declare that we have unalienable rights given by God and not man, and when our founders could not agree on finalizing the constitution I think it was, they stopped, and spent time in prayer before continuing. Our founders wrote much in their personal writings concerning God. I suppose had they all written about the hindu gods or the muslim god you'd be claiming they weren't founding a hindu or muslim nation as well? I doubt that.

Like I said, this nation has over time sent more Bibles and missionaries into the world than any other nation.

But we do need these days to distinguish between what we were and what we have become as they are not the same. In other words, if someone wants to claim we were not a Christian nation, sorry, but I know better, but if someone wants to claim we are not now a Christian nation, I would have to agree.

As for your not finding the method of our founding to be Christian, well, the manner in which God delivered the children of Israel from Egypt wasn't exactly through negotiations of a friendly nature either. Like God said in His word, there is a time for everything under the sun. And finally, Christ's first act upon His return will be to kill millions upon millions of people.

I'm not arguing we should hold out and kill government troops when they come to take our guns. I wouldn't do that nor advocate it. I don't argue for it because I believe it would be pointless. If I thought it could be done, then I'd advocate it because our constitution clearly says we are not to bow down to the government but in fact overthrow it if they become what they should not become. So if you really want to obey the law of the land, then you should be obeying the highest law in our land - the constitution and not those that seek to pervert or destroy it.

always
Nov 17th 2008, 02:32 AM
I can see the news coverage now.

All over the country, wacko christians holed up in their houses with swat teams outside.

Some of them may even end up being pastors or elders.

Gun battle ensues, with the christians either be hauled away after be gassed and such, or being brought out in body bags.

News teams all camped out with their cameras, interviewing neighbors.

Such a great witness for Messiah - They stood FIRM in their belief of right to bear arms.

:help:


They will be classified right along with Jim Jones, Karesh, and that one in mountains of Montana and all the other false prophets

Again, if we are children of God, why do we need guns for our protection, is HE not your Jehovah Nissi?

dan
Nov 17th 2008, 05:17 PM
Not in context:
He is talking about fulfilling Prophecy, and when the disciples said they had 2 among ALL of the, His answer was "that is ENOUGH"

Jesus is only conceding that one sword is enough for six men, in a land of swords.

[QUOTE=Eaglenester;1866709]Balance your perspective of that verse with:
Then Yahushua said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.

(Matthew 26:52)


Too easy! Jesus would have been concerned about losing His Disciples en mass just as He was about to commit to the Sacrifice. He was already going to lose one by hanging.


He is CLEARLY not telling us to arm ourselves and fight a physical fight.
Goes TOTALLY against the common threads in the Scripture of loving you enemies, mercy, sacrifice, forgiveness.

Not at all! If you stop a man from murdering another, you have saved his soul, even if you kill him in the process.
Also, if you have no reason for others to fear you, will you ever have any reason or ability to grant mercy?
If you are sacrificing yourself to save others, you have done nothing unless the others live, going first saves no one. If you fight, you have a chance that all may live,if the bad guys were to run away out of fear. Or, you might kill murderers that, unmolested, would murder again.

If Rev. 13:10 says anything to me, it's that only the believers that believe in justice will occupy Heaven:

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


Look at Stephen when they stoned him.
There are NO examples in NT Scriptures to support your perspective.

True. Part of God's Grand Delusion. In the OT, many things required death as a penalty. Jesus says the Law will never be without weight, and that those that teach and believe that will be lowest in Heaven. The Son says that you should seek the Righteousness Of God and all things would be added to you. The Saviour says that those that do the Will Of The Father are my brothers and sisters.

Jesus did not tell the soldiers to stop soldiering or say they were unworthy. The Gentile Commandments do not mention killing.


All the apostles but John died a martyrs death.
Look at Paul's death - he went willingly to die just to beable to present the Gospel.
When Peter told us to obey governmental authorities, Rome was an occupying force in Israel.
The Roman government was persecuting, torturing, cruelly killing (like dipping them in hot wax and setting them on fire) followers of Messiah.
They didn't resist and fight - should we be ANY different?

Perhaps with Government. But, a common criminal or home invader? Never!

dan
Nov 17th 2008, 05:27 PM
You are also misapplying this verse - it's not talking about an individual on his own, read the verses BEFORE to get the context.

...Willing to walk you through my train of thought. Be as much of a brother, please.

dan
Nov 17th 2008, 05:48 PM
I can see the news coverage now.
All over the country, wacko christians holed up in their houses with swat teams outside.
Some of them may even end up being pastors or elders.
Gun battle ensues, with the christians either be hauled away after be gassed and such, or being brought out in body bags.
News teams all camped out with their cameras, interviewing neighbors.
Such a great witness for Messiah - They stood FIRM in their belief of right to bear arms.
:help:

...It'll be more like:

Christians Arrested In (Name Any) State For Refusal To Turn In Guns-Guns Found Buried Two States Away

dan
Nov 17th 2008, 05:58 PM
They will be classified right along with Jim Jones, Karesh, and that one in mountains of Montana and all the other false prophets

Again, if we are children of God, why do we need guns for our protection, is HE not your Jehovah Nissi?

...He said:

AMOS 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

DAN 11:22 And the arms of the fighter shall be overcome before his face, and shall be broken; yea also the prince of the covenant. (Douay)

When God says that the Evil One will conspire to take away your arms why is it not a good thing to resist him?

AngelAuthor
Nov 17th 2008, 06:35 PM
Again, if we are children of God, why do we need guns for our protection, is HE not your Jehovah Nissi?
Do you lock your car door? Does it have an alarm on it? Do you lock your house at night? Are not these things not putting your trust fully in God?

ChristianKnight
Nov 18th 2008, 03:48 AM
So your guns matter more to you than Messiah and obedience to Him and Scripture?

Sorry, I like the Constitution? :hmm:


I can see the news coverage now.

All over the country, wacko christians holed up in their houses with swat teams outside.

Some of them may even end up being pastors or elders.

Gun battle ensues, with the christians either be hauled away after be gassed and such, or being brought out in body bags.

News teams all camped out with their cameras, interviewing neighbors.

Such a great witness for Messiah - They stood FIRM in their belief of right to bear arms.

:help:

Don't worry, if I did make a stand, their'd be plenty of people to make sure everyone knew I wasn't a Christian.



No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.-Thomas Jefferson

AlainaJ
Nov 18th 2008, 03:53 AM
America was founded on Christian principles, hence the second amendment. When a government is in opposition to the laws of God, it is an individuals duty to stand and fight the tyranny...If this was not the case...we would never have fought the revolutionary war..an unarmed people make easy prey...ask Stalin or any great dictator.

Eaglenester
Nov 18th 2008, 04:10 AM
America was founded on Christian principles, hence the second amendment.

That is why America is NOT a christian nation.
It was established in rebellion to the government - which is in direct DISOBEDIENCE to Yahweh's Scripture and command - thus SIN.

America was formed in disobedience (sin), that is NOT a "christian" value.

Notice it's called the 2nd AMENDMENT - and AMENDMENT to the constitution, not in the initial concept of forming this nation.

Also many of the founding fathers and even it's 1st president were not true Scriptural christians.

always
Nov 18th 2008, 04:14 AM
Do you lock your car door? Does it have an alarm on it? Do you lock your house at night? Are not these things not putting your trust fully in God?


Where I live, you actually could leave your car door unlock, and of course I lock my house, but my faith is fully in God, if someone takes my car, they can have it, IT'S JUST A CAR, I could get another.

The things in my home can be replaced. And when it's time to go home, it's time to go home, no gun would be able to stop that.( hypothetically speaking of course for I will be raptured)

always
Nov 18th 2008, 04:15 AM
America was founded on Christian principles, hence the second amendment. When a government is in opposition to the laws of God, it is an individuals duty to stand and fight the tyranny...If this was not the case...we would never have fought the revolutionary war..an unarmed people make easy prey...ask Stalin or any great dictator.


what does America or the 2nd Amendment have to do with faith in God?

Eaglenester
Nov 18th 2008, 04:24 AM
When a government is in opposition to the laws of God, it is an individuals duty to stand and fight the tyranny...If this was not the case...we would never have fought the revolutionary war..an unarmed people make easy prey...ask Stalin or any great dictator.

That is NOT Scripturaly correct.

Look at Messiah's time He tabernacled on this planet - Rome was an occupying force in Rome - it was a tyranny:

Did Messiah EVER go against this? NO

Did He ever rebel against it? NO

Did He ever speak against it? NO

Messiah's only criticisms were against the religious leaders and His disciples.

It would be NO different if He were here today - He would again have very harsh words for the christian leaders and pastors.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

When Peter told us in Scripture to obey governmental authority, Rome was still an occupying force in Israel and the surrounding areas.

The Roman government was KILLING and TORTURING followers of Messiah (dipping them in hot wax and lighting them on fire in a stadium with the words "you are the light" - as one example)

You can not show me ONE example in the NT of the followers of Messiah rebelling or fighting the governmental authorities.

This americanized militarist concept of christianity is WRONG.

TrustingFollower
Nov 18th 2008, 04:39 AM
Hey guy's discuss the issue, but leave the personal jabs out of the posts.

ServantofTruth
Nov 18th 2008, 08:52 AM
As usual the extremes make little sense.

There are some very dangerous individuals and groups in the world and some authority has to have the power to arrest/ stop them.

However when it comes to us individuals, most of us have a choice in the western world on where to live. Moving just a few streets can lead to much increased safety.

Killing someone should be a last resort. Putting on a uniform does not take away personal responsibility for your actions. May our Lord Jesus speak to the hearts and minds of all those who seek to protect the population. SofTy.

swarr
Nov 19th 2008, 03:42 PM
If it is not a sin issue then I would say we have to obey our authority God has put over us as many others have already said that. When it gets right down to it my question would be why would they do that? It is a right to bear arms and they would have to change the constitution to force that and that would be an overwhelming amount of votes.


It is my understanding that the Patriot Act allows the seizure of firearms in the event of chaotic events, and that they took such action during Katrina. By confiscating them they would make us defenseless against aggressive actions on the part of criminals who would be armed with nonregistered weapons.

swarr
Nov 19th 2008, 03:48 PM
So you believe that American's early settlers should have not fought for freedom and remained loyal to British control?


A delusion.

America may have settled as a christian land - but the forming of this as a Nation WASN'T.

It was formed in rebellion against England and disobedience to Scripture.

What was the cry to starting the revolutionary war?
Taxation without representation.

What event led up to it?
Boston tea party?

Who the the 1st President?
A MASON

Hardly the roots for a "christian" nation.

The revolutionary war was hardly fought over anything as noble as freedom of religion.

War and disobedience to Yahweh is NOT how a "christian" nation is formed.

Killing native peoples to conquer their land is NOT how a "christian" nation is formed.

The ONLY nation Yahweh formed was Israel.

America is NO different than the other nations out there, a work of men operating in satan's kingdom.

swarr
Nov 19th 2008, 09:39 PM
bttt...............................

MrAnteater
Nov 19th 2008, 10:35 PM
Jesus DID endorse his apostles carrying weapons:

Luk 22:36 He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one."

If some Christians feels they shouldn't own a weapon, that's perfectly fine with me. But don't lecture me and tell me I shouldn't own one. I'm not going to leave myself defenseless and at the mercy of evil, whether robbers or the government itself.

God does not command us to be pacifists, we can defend ourselves. And I choose to use Glock, Springfield, S&W, Beretta, and Kel Tec to do so.

TrustingFollower
Nov 19th 2008, 11:03 PM
Where do we put our faith, in our selves and our guns or are we going to put our faith in God the way David did?

1 Samuel 17

45 Then David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have taunted.
46 "This day the LORD will deliver you up into my hands, and I will strike you down and remove your head from you. And I will give the dead bodies of the army of the Philistines this day to the birds of the sky and the wild beasts of the earth, that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel,
47 and that all this assembly may know that the LORD does not deliver by sword or by spear; for the battle is the LORD'S and He will give you into our hands."

Trust in the Lord and take his word that he will protect us when it really matters.

Isaiah 54

17 "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their vindication is from Me," declares the LORD.

Rufus_1611
Nov 20th 2008, 04:57 AM
"And the priest said, The sword of Goliath the Philistine, whom thou slewest in the valley of Elah, behold, it is here wrapped in a cloth behind the ephod: if thou wilt take that, take it: for there is no other save that here. And David said, There is none like that; give it me." - 1 Samuel 21:9

Eaglenester
Nov 20th 2008, 01:18 PM
Jesus DID endorse his apostles carrying weapons:

Luk 22:36 He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one."

If some Christians feels they shouldn't own a weapon, that's perfectly fine with me. But don't lecture me and tell me I shouldn't own one. I'm not going to leave myself defenseless and at the mercy of evil, whether robbers or the government itself.

God does not command us to be pacifists, we can defend ourselves. And I choose to use Glock, Springfield, S&W, Beretta, and Kel Tec to do so.


The question is:

If the government bans gun ownership

Will you turn in your guns?
or
will you be disobedient?

diffangle
Nov 20th 2008, 02:09 PM
The question is:

If the government bans gun ownership so they and other criminals can more easily persue evil against people

Will you turn in your guns that will help to protect your loved ones and innocent lives from thugs?
or
will you be disobedient?

Rufus_1611
Nov 20th 2008, 02:17 PM
The question is:

If the government bans gun ownership

Will you turn in your guns?
or
will you be disobedient? I will obey the law.


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Dragonfighter1
Nov 20th 2008, 02:18 PM
Hello ƒєℓℓσωѕ,
LK 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
(Ephesians 6:17-18)


Bible explains it self.
ƒαяєуєωєℓℓ
Forerunner, you shouldn't use humor like that:no:. Someone might actually believe you.:lol:
Two scripture verse from two separate book put side by side do not make theology. Obviously Jesus was speaking about a real sword in the first quote. There is no doubt about that. IN the second quote a very important balancing point is being emphasized...that relying on earthly weapons is not as useful as relying on spiritual weapons.

DF

Clavicula_Nox
Nov 20th 2008, 02:22 PM
I will obey the law.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm260/clavicula_nox/dont_tread_on_me.gif

Rufus_1611
Nov 20th 2008, 02:46 PM
...

http://www.comeandtakeit.com/small230.gif

swarr
Nov 21st 2008, 02:21 PM
From most of the responses it appears that we christians must be obedient to the government body no matter the circumstances. That is what I was thinking.

daughter
Nov 21st 2008, 02:36 PM
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm260/clavicula_nox/dont_tread_on_me.gif
What's the snake about? I thought Christ already crushed the head of the serpent...? Is that a famous picture or something? :confused

Rufus_1611
Nov 21st 2008, 02:42 PM
From most of the responses it appears that we christians must be obedient to the government body no matter the circumstances. That is what I was thinking. That would be an incorrect understanding. Daniel and his friends were disobedient to government, Paul was disobedient, Peter was disobedient, Martin Luther was disobedient, Wycliffe was disobedient, Tyndale was disobedient, John Bunyan was disobedient, Obadiah Holmes was disobedient, Roger Williams was disobedient, the black-robe regiment was disobedient, Patrick Henry was disobedient, etc. etc. etc. The history of the church is replete with examples of faithful Christians forsaking the good favor of being a statist and instead chose to serve God, regardless of the cost or consequence.

Eaglenester
Nov 21st 2008, 02:51 PM
That would be an incorrect understanding. Daniel and his friends were disobedient to government, Paul was disobedient, Peter was disobedient, Martin Luther was disobedient, Wycliffe was disobedient, Tyndale was disobedient, John Bunyan was disobedient, Obadiah Holmes was disobedient, Roger Williams was disobedient, the black-robe regiment was disobedient, Patrick Henry was disobedient, etc. etc. etc. The history of the church is replete with examples of faithful Christians forsaking the good favor of being a statist and instead chose to serve God, regardless of the cost or consequence.

Owning guns is NOT a Scriptural right or necessity.

Own a gun is not necessary to a Scriptural faith - we are to OBEY government, unless it conflicts with Yahweh's commands.

Is a gun essential to your faith and gospel?
If so you follow a totally different god than I do.

Show me Scripture where Peter and Paul disobeyed the government

Rufus_1611
Nov 21st 2008, 03:02 PM
First, Swarr's comments were related to obedience regardless of the circumstances and my response to him was not directly related to guns.


Owning guns is NOT a Scriptural right or necessity. Yes it is, you just don't like the scripture that says so.


Own a gun is not necessary to a Scriptural faith Nothing is necessary for faith except to have faith.


- we are to OBEY government, unless it conflicts with Yahweh's commands.

Is a gun essential to your faith and gospel?
If so you follow a totally different god than I do. We may do so anyway regardless of the gun issue. I serve the Lord Jesus Christ or Jehovah, I do not follow the commands of a god named Yahweh.


Show me Scripture where Peter and Paul disobeyed the government No. You have to ask me nicely.

Dragonfighter1
Nov 21st 2008, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by Eaglenester.
Show me Scripture where Peter and Paul disobeyed the government

[quote=Rufus_1611;1876277]No. You have to ask me nicely.




Snicker! You gotta admit.... that was funny:rofl:

grit
Nov 21st 2008, 03:28 PM
Should christians surrender their firearms

Jesus did. Peter did. For a while.

"The Defeat of Satan

And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Revelation 20:7-10, ESV).

Eaglenester
Nov 21st 2008, 03:52 PM
Yes it is, you just don't like the scripture that says so.
I like the Scripture, just not the way you misapply it and take it out of context


We may do so anyway regardless of the gun issue. I serve the Lord Jesus Christ or Jehovah, I do not follow the commands of a god named Yahweh.
I'm sorry you don't - because that IS His ETERNAL Name according to Scripture - Jehovah is a modern made up name conceived by misapplying Scripture.

You do know the the 1611 imperfect KJV TRANSLATION doesn't contain the name Jesus


No. You have to ask me nicely.

No YOU made the claim - if you don't (or can't) back it up, then it is an empty claim.

TrustingFollower
Nov 21st 2008, 04:09 PM
Hey guy's discuss the issue at topic here without the personal jabs. We are brothers in Christ here and this forum will not tolerate personal attacks.

daughter
Nov 21st 2008, 05:58 PM
You do know the the 1611 imperfect KJV TRANSLATION doesn't contain the name Jesus
Hey Eaglenester.

Don't be offended, but I have to disagree with you there. Before I go any further (and I'm not bragging, just letting you know my qualifications to render an opinion on this subject) I studied English at Oxford, and got an honours degree for my troubles. Part of the degree included studying early translations of the Bible into English, and the morphology of the English language - how the English language was formed by the translations of Bible texts.

The name of Jesus does appear in the 1611 authorised version of the Bible. However, since the letter "J" had not yet been invented, the name was spelled with an "I". At that time "I" stood for many sounds, including those now covered by "J". In fact, the "J" was invented precisely because the name "Iesus" (and Iehova, as well as words like "ianuary", etc) were pronounced with a "jay" sound. A new letter was needed simply to make it easier to know which pronunciation was correct. Nobody would have spelled "Jesus" with a "jay" if that had not been the already established pronunciation.

To say that Jesus' name does not appear in the KJV based on the fact that the alphabet became slightly (only slightly) more phonetically precise doesn't hold up. Anyone in 1611 reading the word "Iesus" would have pronounced it as we do.

Sorry.

Eaglenester
Nov 21st 2008, 07:26 PM
First, Swarr's comments were related to obedience regardless of the circumstances and my response to him was not directly related to guns.

Yes it is, you just don't like the scripture that says so.

Nothing is necessary for faith except to have faith.

We may do so anyway regardless of the gun issue. I serve the Lord Jesus Christ or Jehovah, I do not follow the commands of a god named Yahweh.

No. You have to ask me nicely.


Hey Eaglenester.

Don't be offended, but I have to disagree with you there. Before I go any further (and I'm not bragging, just letting you know my qualifications to render an opinion on this subject) I studied English at Oxford, and got an honours degree for my troubles. Part of the degree included studying early translations of the Bible into English, and the morphology of the English language - how the English language was formed by the translations of Bible texts.

The name of Jesus does appear in the 1611 authorised version of the Bible. However, since the letter "J" had not yet been invented, the name was spelled with an "I". At that time "I" stood for many sounds, including those now covered by "J". In fact, the "J" was invented precisely because the name "Iesus" (and Iehova, as well as words like "ianuary", etc) were pronounced with a "jay" sound. A new letter was needed simply to make it easier to know which pronunciation was correct. Nobody would have spelled "Jesus" with a "jay" if that had not been the already established pronunciation.

To say that Jesus' name does not appear in the KJV based on the fact that the alphabet became slightly (only slightly) more phonetically precise doesn't hold up. Anyone in 1611 reading the word "Iesus" would have pronounced it as we do.

Sorry.

Thanks for the explanation - but that's what I was meaning, it wasn't spelled with a J but "Iesus" .

Many believed it was pronounce initially with the I sound, since the Greek and Latin both pronounced it with an I sound.

My point was "Jesus" and "Jehovah" are modern names and pronunciations.

Clavicula_Nox
Nov 21st 2008, 07:32 PM
What's the snake about? I thought Christ already crushed the head of the serpent...? Is that a famous picture or something? :confused

Sorry, it's one of our Revolutionary Era flags hoisted in defiance against the British. I throw it out when I'm feeling particularly rebellious or patriotic.

keck553
Nov 21st 2008, 11:27 PM
Thanks for the explanation - but that's what I was meaning, it wasn't spelled with a J but "Iesus" .

Many believed it was pronounce initially with the I sound, since the Greek and Latin both pronounced it with an I sound.

My point was "Jesus" and "Jehovah" are modern names and pronunciations.

Adonai is good enough for Yeshua, so it's good enough for me :)

"Yahweh" is not a name, not even a tetragammon. it's an expansion of YHVH with total guesses on the vowel points.

Eaglenester
Nov 22nd 2008, 12:01 AM
Adonai is good enough for Yeshua, so it's good enough for me :)

"Yahweh" is not a name, not even a tetragammon. it's an expansion of YHVH with total guesses on the vowel points.

So you think it's wrong to use Yahweh?

Anfd you are mistaken, we CAN know the vowel points (besides NONE of the ancient Hebrew had the vowel points.
We KNOW for SURE the A for Yah.
And we can know more than that - but that's a separate topic.

How do you deal with Exodus 3:13-15


Then Moses said to Elohim, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The Elohim of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"
Elohim said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Elohim, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'YHWH, the Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.

TrustingFollower
Nov 22nd 2008, 12:45 AM
Back to the topic of the thread. You guy's are free to start a new thread to discuss the different name God is called in the bible, but this thread is not the place for the discussion.

ChristianKnight
Nov 23rd 2008, 06:05 AM
I am gonna kinda put in some reasons, why I think, no one should give up their guns, not a Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or anyone.

1. Government- Governments are evil, no government has ever been for the people, ever. The closest I can think of that was of the people, near modern times, was the American Forefathers, which were richer men, but still part of the people in a sense. If a government man told me that my farm was going to be taken over cause its in the way of a power-line, then thats when not only protesting comes in handy, but a gun does too. Cause the government, can, kill people for land, they've done it before, and will do it again.

2. People, men will rob you, maybe you go through life without being robbed, but men will rob other men, its part of life. Usually that man will have a weapon, now in modern times, that weapon is usually a gun or knife. If the man has a gun, you having a knife is not as equal, unless you are trained with a knife, and know how to use it, then its about equal, but either way, having a gun yourself is a better plan, maybe a knife for up-close combat,if he tackles you or something.

3. Invasion, yes, American can be invaded by a foreign power, even though we'd love to think not, so having a gun then would be very useful.

TrustingFollower
Nov 23rd 2008, 09:00 PM
I am gonna kinda put in some reasons, why I think, no one should give up their guns, not a Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or anyone.

1. Government- Governments are evil, no government has ever been for the people, ever. The closest I can think of that was of the people, near modern times, was the American Forefathers, which were richer men, but still part of the people in a sense. If a government man told me that my farm was going to be taken over cause its in the way of a power-line, then thats when not only protesting comes in handy, but a gun does too. Cause the government, can, kill people for land, they've done it before, and will do it again.

2. People, men will rob you, maybe you go through life without being robbed, but men will rob other men, its part of life. Usually that man will have a weapon, now in modern times, that weapon is usually a gun or knife. If the man has a gun, you having a knife is not as equal, unless you are trained with a knife, and know how to use it, then its about equal, but either way, having a gun yourself is a better plan, maybe a knife for up-close combat,if he tackles you or something.

3. Invasion, yes, American can be invaded by a foreign power, even though we'd love to think not, so having a gun then would be very useful.
While I quote this post it is not directed at the poster, but merely an example to use to make a point. I am a bond servant of Jesus Christ and could never endorse this line of thinking. The point of quoting the post is to so the difference between carnal thinking and spiritual thinking. Scripture tells me that while I live in this world I am not of this world. Romans 8 shows us that if we are of the mind set of the flesh then it is hostility against God.

Romans 8

7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 ¶However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

I am born of the spirit and walk of the spirit. Things of the flesh are just that things of the flesh. I could speculate about what to do in different situations, but it really would not do any good. Those thoughts are tools of the enemy, the power and principality of the air. God has given him the permission to use these thought against us and our faith is tested through these thoughts. We are taught to take these thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.

2 Corinthians 10

2 I ask that when I am present I need not be bold with the confidence with which I propose to be courageous against some, who regard us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,
4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

So if I walk in the spirit and take captive the thought of disobedience then I am free to be able to obey the ruling authority placed over me. By obeying that authority placed over me I bring glory to God through me submission.

1 Peter 2

13 ¶Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.
17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
18 ¶Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.

If the government wants to change the laws and call for all guns to be surrendered I would surrender mine. I know from the scriptures that God will take care of me. Stuff is just stuff and my treasure is not in this world, it is in heaven where rust and moth will not destroy it. I look to the land that was promised us through Abraham, the eternal city.

I can see in the Psalms that God spoke to all us through David. David lost everything he had yet he trusted God to provide when times were bleak. God has not changed, He still takes care of his children.

Psalms 37

16 ¶Better is the little of the righteous Than the abundance of many wicked.
17 For the arms of the wicked will be broken, But the LORD sustains the righteous.
18 The LORD knows the days of the blameless, And their inheritance will be forever.
19 They will not be ashamed in the time of evil, And in the days of famine they will have abundance.

So I don't need guns to defend myself. If a thief robs me let him have it, it is just stuff. If I lose everything I ever bought in this world, I can trust in God to take care of me. God promises to care for His children. It does not mean I will be living lavishly, but I will not starve to death either. For me it's a matter of submitting to God's will. If God wills for me to lose what I have to be submissive to him then so be it.

ChristianKnight
Nov 24th 2008, 05:06 AM
So I don't need guns to defend myself. If a thief robs me let him have it, it is just stuff. If I lose everything I ever bought in this world, I can trust in God to take care of me. God promises to care for His children. It does not mean I will be living lavishly, but I will not starve to death either. For me it's a matter of submitting to God's will. If God wills for me to lose what I have to be submissive to him then so be it.

If a thief robs me, I want justice. If I lose everything, I want justice. God can take care of my children, but if he thinks that means I'll let some low-life scum take their life, then God is wrong. I submit to his will, but what's to say his will means I can't defend my family?

TrustingFollower
Nov 24th 2008, 05:24 AM
If a thief robs me, I want justice. If I lose everything, I want justice. God can take care of my children, but if he thinks that means I'll let some low-life scum take their life, then God is wrong. I submit to his will, but what's to say his will means I can't defend my family?
Dude I stated I only quoted your post to use as an example. I have nothing against you personally and did not direct my post towards you in any way. I choose to submit everything over to God even my protection and the protection of my family. You do not have to answer to me for your actions you have to answer to God for them. If I were you I would look at this statement you just made and compare it to what scripture says. Because from what I read in scripture this statement is directly contrary to what it says, but don't take my word for it go to the scriptures and find out for yourself.

ChristianKnight
Nov 24th 2008, 06:42 AM
Dude I stated I only quoted your post to use as an example. I have nothing against you personally and did not direct my post towards you in any way. I choose to submit everything over to God even my protection and the protection of my family. You do not have to answer to me for your actions you have to answer to God for them. If I were you I would look at this statement you just made and compare it to what scripture says. Because from what I read in scripture this statement is directly contrary to what it says, but don't take my word for it go to the scriptures and find out for yourself.

Dude I was answering the paragraph. I was not trying to upset you.

daughter
Nov 24th 2008, 08:44 AM
CK - Trusting Follower made it clear that he wasn't upset with you, he was simply using an example.

Here is another example.


If a thief robs me, I want justice. If I lose everything, I want justice. God can take care of my children, but if he thinks that means I'll let some low-life scum take their life, then God is wrong. I submit to his will, but what's to say his will means I can't defend my family?

You can defend your family, and your (as yet non-existant) children, but do you realise how much this post is about you?

"I want justice, I want justice..."

"If God thinks X He's wrong..."

This imaginary villain that you have created for the purpose of the argument, some one threatening imaginary people, not yet born, is characterised as "low-life scum..."

CK... do you realise that you will probably never have to shoot anyone? That you're worrying about a scenario that may never come to pass?

Jesus says don't worry about what tomorrow may bring. Sufficient unto the day are the evils thereof. It is actually a sin to willfully continue to dwell in evil imaginations.

The world of future possibilities that you create is full of violence, and it's concerning that you spend so much of your thought life imagining situations in which you'd be justified in taking a life, or thumping people, or getting into fights - and it is deeply concerning that in the above scenario you portray yourself shaking your fist at God and demanding justice.

Are you absolutely sure you WANT His justice? Do you know how terrible a thing that is to demand?

You say that you submit to God's will. Easy to say when you're looking forward to a speculative future.

But you need to look at what God wants from you NOW. Does He want you to find some Christian counsel, to read your Bible, to learn to love your neighbour, to grow in Christ?

John says in his first letter that anyone who says he loves God, but does not love his brother does not have the love of God in him, and is a liar.

Do you feel that you are filled with love, or anger and hatred?

You need to talk to someone.

MrAnteater
Nov 25th 2008, 12:12 AM
If a thief robs me, I want justice. If I lose everything, I want justice. God can take care of my children, but if he thinks that means I'll let some low-life scum take their life, then God is wrong. I submit to his will, but what's to say his will means I can't defend my family?

As a gun owner who is trained in self defense and licensed to carry a gun I can relate to ChristianKnight's point to a degree.

I absolutely think we have the right to defend ourselves if confronted with an evil person who is trying to cause us great bodily harm. I will use a firearm and shoot someone who is trying to kill me first or my family. I have a legal right to do so under my states "castle doctrine" for self defense. God does NOT command us to be pacifists and lay down our life. I am made in the image of God and I will not allow myself, his creation, to be destroyed by evil. If someone is sticking a gun in my face, I'm not going to stop to preach the gospel at that moment, I'm going to draw my pistol and defend myself.

However, we should not seek vengeance and that's where I draw the line. We cannot succumb to anger. If my child was killed by a robber and I later shot the man after the fact, I would be completely wrong and a murderer. We need to follow the law of government and let due process take it's course to convict and punish the guilty.

If vengeance and vigilantism is what you are advocating ChristianKnight, than I have to disagree with you.

diffangle
Nov 25th 2008, 05:21 AM
Here's a video of a woman whose parents were killed by a gunman speaking to legislators on the importance of the second amendment...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&p

ChristianKnight
Nov 25th 2008, 09:33 AM
CK - Trusting Follower made it clear that he wasn't upset with you, he was simply using an example.

Here is another example.



You can defend your family, and your (as yet non-existant) children, but do you realise how much this post is about you?

"I want justice, I want justice..."

"If God thinks X He's wrong..."

This imaginary villain that you have created for the purpose of the argument, some one threatening imaginary people, not yet born, is characterised as "low-life scum..."

CK... do you realise that you will probably never have to shoot anyone? That you're worrying about a scenario that may never come to pass?

Jesus says don't worry about what tomorrow may bring. Sufficient unto the day are the evils thereof. It is actually a sin to willfully continue to dwell in evil imaginations.

The world of future possibilities that you create is full of violence, and it's concerning that you spend so much of your thought life imagining situations in which you'd be justified in taking a life, or thumping people, or getting into fights - and it is deeply concerning that in the above scenario you portray yourself shaking your fist at God and demanding justice.

Are you absolutely sure you WANT His justice? Do you know how terrible a thing that is to demand?

You say that you submit to God's will. Easy to say when you're looking forward to a speculative future.

But you need to look at what God wants from you NOW. Does He want you to find some Christian counsel, to read your Bible, to learn to love your neighbour, to grow in Christ?

John says in his first letter that anyone who says he loves God, but does not love his brother does not have the love of God in him, and is a liar.

Do you feel that you are filled with love, or anger and hatred?

You need to talk to someone.

Actually, its a decent chance. My neighbor just got robbed, and the guy's were gonna rob us, until they saw my dad (cause the guy knew my dad, and wasn't gonna hurt us cause my dad knew him), but they robbed him, and had guns, and where sitting outside my house (not in the yard, but in the woods beside our house) and we were lucky our cops used common sense, and we had cops all over our house, and stuff.

Chris38
Nov 25th 2008, 07:11 PM
in the event that our government would ever make that a requirement?

An armed America is a strong America.
To take away our guns can open the door to Dictators. Our right to bear arms is the deterant.
Not only that but it would take away from my ability to defend my family if the crisis ever comes

Eaglenester
Nov 25th 2008, 09:17 PM
An armed America is a strong America.
To take away our guns can open the door to Dictators. Our right to bear arms is the deterant.
Not only that but it would take away from my ability to defend my family if the crisis ever comes

So you would break the law, and thus disobey Yahweh?
Are guns that important?

Rufus_1611
Nov 25th 2008, 10:54 PM
So you would break the law, and thus disobey Yahweh?
Are guns that important? What law would he be breaking exactly?

Eaglenester
Nov 26th 2008, 02:19 PM
What law would he be breaking exactly?

DUH?

What's the topic.

If the govt banned gun ownership and were going to confiscate them.

Theophilus
Nov 26th 2008, 03:10 PM
I am a gun owner, and have been for years.

In all those years, I've never once felt condemned by God for liking guns, or owning them.

If the government told me to turn them in, I wouldn't.

If the government told me to turn in all my Bibles, I wouldn't do that, either.

Apples and oranges? I don't think so.

Personally, I've read and re-read the Bible many times, have a goodly chunk of Scripture memorized, and am steeped in the teachings contained therein enough so that I don't HAVE to have a Bible. And let's face it: Scripture isn't what saves you, anyway. It certainly points you to the One who does...but we didn't always have Bibles...but we HAVE always had oral traditions, and the passing on of knowledge. I'd be able to minister without a Bible.

However, even though I don't need the Bible, per se, I want the Bible. I know, even with what I know to this point, that there's still an infinite amount of blessing, knowledge, and understanding to be gleaned from it...therefore, I'm going to hold on to it, no matter what.

Does holding on to my Bible if the government tells me to turn it in make me a sinner? Am I outside of God's will if I want to hold on to His inspired word? Am I being disobedient to Yahweh in such a case?

By the same token, do I need a gun? No, I really don't...but I want them, because I like them. Not good enough of a reason?

Well, how about my role as a husband and father? Shouldn't I protect them? Isn't that part of my duties? Should I let someone come in and rape and/or kill my wife and daughters? Wouldn't that be derelict in my duty?

Am I to defend them with my bare hands? A knife or club against guns?

Look, I don't fear death...but who's to say God hasn't put me in place as the aforementioned husband and father to protect my wife and children with whatever means necessary? They are innocent, and the potential perpetrator of the crime is not. I don't wish to send any man to meet his Creator...but to stand idly by and let such atrocities occur to the innocent makes me "...worse than an infidel."

Before someone tosses out a hypothetical about the government taking away guns, perhaps you should give us a hypothetical about why the government would feel it necessary to curtail or eliminate our 2nd amendment rights?

I'm speaking as a man here, and not as a mod, so let me say this: No one on this board is my judge...that is reserved for God alone. When He convicts me for possession of a firearm, I'll submit to His will. If God directs me to obey a law that seems to fly in the face of my role as protector to my wife and children...then I'll submit to it.

...but not until then.

diffangle
Nov 26th 2008, 03:32 PM
I am a gun owner, and have been for years.

In all those years, I've never once felt condemned by God for liking guns, or owning them.

If the government told me to turn them in, I wouldn't.

If the government told me to turn in all my Bibles, I wouldn't do that, either.

Apples and oranges? I don't think so.

Personally, I've read and re-read the Bible many times, have a goodly chunk of Scripture memorized, and am steeped in the teachings contained therein enough so that I don't HAVE to have a Bible. And let's face it: Scripture isn't what saves you, anyway. It certainly points you to the One who does...but we didn't always have Bibles...but we HAVE always had oral traditions, and the passing on of knowledge. I'd be able to minister without a Bible.

However, even though I don't need the Bible, per se, I want the Bible. I know, even with what I know to this point, that there's still an infinite amount of blessing, knowledge, and understanding to be gleaned from it...therefore, I'm going to hold on to it, no matter what.

Does holding on to my Bible if the government tells me to turn it in make me a sinner? Am I outside of God's will if I want to hold on to His inspired word? Am I being disobedient to Yahweh in such a case?

By the same token, do I need a gun? No, I really don't...but I want them, because I like them. Not good enough of a reason?

Well, how about my role as a husband and father? Shouldn't I protect them? Isn't that part of my duties? Should I let someone come in and rape and/or kill my wife and daughters? Wouldn't that be derelict in my duty?

Am I to defend them with my bare hands? A knife or club against guns?

Look, I don't fear death...but who's to say God hasn't put me in place as the aforementioned husband and father to protect my wife and children with whatever means necessary? They are innocent, and the potential perpetrator of the aforementioned crime is not. I don't wish to send any many to meet his Creator...but to stand idly by and let such atrocities occur to the innocent makes me "...worse than an infidel."

Before someone tosses out a hypothetical about the government taking away guns, perhaps you should give us a hypothetical about why the government would feel it necessary to curtail or eliminate our 2nd amendment rights?

I'm speaking as a man here, and not as a mod, so let me say this: No one on this board is my judge...that is reserved for God alone. When He convicts me for possession of a firearm, I'll submit to His will. If God directs me to obey a law that seems to fly in the face of my role as protector to my wife and children...then I'll submit to it.

...but not until then.
Good post and a point I tried to make in one of my earlier posts... it's Scriptural for a man/woman to protect their house...

Mat 24:43 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=24&v=43&t=KJV#43)But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Rufus_1611
Nov 26th 2008, 04:08 PM
DUH?

What's the topic.

If the govt banned gun ownership and were going to confiscate them. By law, the government can not ban gun ownership and confiscate the guns, therefore it would be the government that is usurping the law...not Chris38.

(duh)

Firefighter
Nov 26th 2008, 06:03 PM
We can't disobey the government. We ARE the government. Our government is based solely on the constitution. WE the people... remember? We have the right to keep and bear arms, but WHY do we have that right? To defend against a government that tries to take away those rights, including our own.

We have the right in America to overthrow the government should it become a tyranny...

We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; -Thomas Jefferson

To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character. -Alexander Hamilton

To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws. -John Adams

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive. -Noah Webster

Eaglenester
Nov 26th 2008, 09:07 PM
By law, the government can not ban gun ownership and confiscate the guns, therefore it would be the government that is usurping the law...not Chris38.

(duh)

If the government passed a law banning individual gun ownership, and the supreme court upheld it - then it WOULD be illegal.

diffangle
Nov 26th 2008, 10:09 PM
If the government passed a law banning individual gun ownership, and the supreme court upheld it - then it WOULD be illegal.
EN, if big brother made it illegal to own a Bible... woud you give up the your Bibles?

Rufus_1611
Nov 26th 2008, 10:18 PM
If the government passed a law banning individual gun ownership, and the supreme court upheld it - then it WOULD be illegal. Only if it was your intention to start a new form of government. However, currently we at least pretend that this is still a Constitutional form of government with the Constitution being the foundational law document. Any "law" that operates in opposition to this law is unlawful.

Eaglenester
Nov 26th 2008, 10:34 PM
EN, if big brother made it illegal to own a Bible... woud you give up the your Bibles?

Apples and rocks.

A gun has NOTHING to do with a Scriptural practice of my faith.

Scripture is Yahweh's weapon - gun is man's.

Yahweh gave us Scripture - He breathed it and it is living.
Gun is desighned and made by men to accomplish the desire of men.

I can't believe this comparison is even being made.

Eaglenester
Nov 26th 2008, 10:36 PM
Only if it was your intention to start a new form of government. However, currently we at least pretend that this is still a Constitutional form of government with the Constitution being the foundational law document. Any "law" that operates in opposition to this law is unlawful.

Not if the supreme court interpreted right to bear arms differently than you.
Their ruling would be LAW - yours would be disobedince.

Rufus_1611
Nov 26th 2008, 10:46 PM
Not if the supreme court interpreted right to bear arms differently than you.
Their ruling would be LAW - yours would be disobedince. Their's would be disobedience...you don't have to be a supreme to understand that the meaning of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", means that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Any infringement upon this right would be unlawful.

Eaglenester
Nov 26th 2008, 10:55 PM
Their's would be disobedience...you don't have to be a supreme to understand that the meaning of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", means that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Any infringement upon this right would be unlawful.

The supreme court, and their authority was established by the founders of this nation - so if their interpretation if different than yours, theirs becomes law.
We are COMMANDED to obey the governing authorities.

A rebellious spirit is not of Yahweh.

Rufus_1611
Nov 26th 2008, 11:00 PM
The supreme court, and their authority was established by the founders of this nation - so if their interpretation if different than yours, theirs becomes law.
We are COMMANDED to obey the governing authorities. The Constitution was established by the founders of this nation so if their interpretation is different than what the Constitution clearly says, then they become usurpers of the law.


"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." - Declaration of Independence


A rebellious spirit is not of Yahweh. I'm not of Yahweh so I'm quite comfortable not having his spirit.

ChristianKnight
Nov 26th 2008, 11:07 PM
We can't disobey the government. We ARE the government. Our government is based solely on the constitution. WE the people... remember? We have the right to keep and bear arms, but WHY do we have that right? To defend against a government that tries to take away those rights, including our own.

We have the right in America to overthrow the government should it become a tyranny...

We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; -Thomas Jefferson

To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character. -Alexander Hamilton

To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws. -John Adams

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive. -Noah Webster

I liked my previous Jefferson quote better :lol:

Eaglenester
Nov 26th 2008, 11:09 PM
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." - Declaration of Independence.
That's a teaching of men that has NO NO NO foundation in Scripture.


I'm not of Yahweh so I'm quite comfortable not having his spirit.

I'm sorry for you - that's not a good place to be.

Maybe that's why guns seem to mean more to you than obedience to Scripture

Chris38
Nov 26th 2008, 11:16 PM
So you would break the law, and thus disobey Yahweh?
Are guns that important?

If they were to ever outlaw guns then absolutely, I would refuse to give them up.
I respect your values and the viewpoint you have on the topic. But think of this for a second.

By the Government outlawing Guns and taking away our right to bear arms it only opens the door for Dictators to move in against a civilian population with no means to protect itself. The Goverment would have total control.
Our right to bear arms is a Deterant against a communist goverment.

Whats one of the differances between the United States and the communist countries?

An armed civilian population with the ability to fight back if the need ever arises. Though I hope and pray It never does, and personally doubt it ever will.

I know the question has come up by now on this thread, But if they decide to outlaw the Bible and public displays of worship and affection to Christ, would you obey the law and give it up?

ChristianKnight
Nov 26th 2008, 11:17 PM
I know the question has come up by now on this thread, But if they decide to outlaw the Bible and public displays of worship and affection to Christ, would you obey the law and give it up?

I am pretty sure he is saying unless it goes against God's commands, the law is right. I think Yawheh is god, but I am not sure.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 12:17 AM
If they were to ever outlaw guns then absolutely, I would refuse to give them up.
I respect your values and the viewpoint you have on the topic. But think of this for a second.

By the Government outlawing Guns and taking away our right to bear arms it only opens the door for Dictators to move in against a civilian population with no means to protect itself. The Goverment would have total control.
Our right to bear arms is a Deterant against a communist goverment.

Whats one of the differances between the United States and the communist countries?

An armed civilian population with the ability to fight back if the need ever arises. Though I hope and pray It never does, and personally doubt it ever will.

I know the question has come up by now on this thread, But if they decide to outlaw the Bible and public displays of worship and affection to Christ, would you obey the law and give it up?

When Messiah walked the earth, and when Peter commanded us to obey governmental authorities - Israel, and thus them, were under an oppressive occupying foreign government.
They were torturing and murdering Messiah's disciples.

Rufus_1611
Nov 27th 2008, 12:19 AM
[/indent]That's a teaching of men that has NO NO NO foundation in Scripture. It's the foundation of the nation and laws in which you live.




I'm sorry for you - that's not a good place to be. It's a fine place to be. His name is Jesus Christ my dear Christian(?) brother.


Maybe that's why guns seem to mean more to you than obedience to Scripture Maybe if you saw that Jesus Christ, name above all names, commanded disciples to sell their garments and buy a sword, you would begin to likewise see that there is no such person/god as Yahweh in the Holy Bible.

Chris38
Nov 27th 2008, 12:29 AM
When Messiah walked the earth, and when Peter commanded us to obey governmental authorities - Israel, and thus them, were under an oppressive occupying foreign government.
They were torturing and murdering Messiah's disciples.

I have done some reading up on it in acts, Romans and peter and will stand corrected on my previuos positition. Thanks Eagle.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 12:41 AM
It's a fine place to be. His name is Jesus Christ
.

That's what His name is transliterated to - through Greek and Latin - but that is not the way the name was given to Him, or what He was called by those that saw Him in the flesh.


Maybe if you saw that Jesus Christ, name above all names, commanded disciples to sell their garments and buy a sword,

You misapply that verse to make guns esential to your faith


you would begin to likewise see that there is no such person/god as Yahweh in the Holy Bible

That's a lie for sure.

And Elohim said to Mosheh, “I am that which I am.”1 And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Yisra’l, ‘I am has sent me to you.’ ” Footnote: 1The Heb?rew text reads: ’eyeh ’asher ’eyeh, the word ’eyeh being derived from hayah which means to be, to exist, but the Aramaic text here in v. 14 reads: ayah ashar ayah. This is not His Name, but it is an explanation that leads up to the revelation of His Name in v. 15, namely: YHWH.
And Elohim said further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to the children of Yisra’l, ‘YHWH Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Yitshaq, and the Elohim of Yaaqob?, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to all generations.’
(Exodus 3:14-15)

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 12:44 AM
I am pretty sure he is saying unless it goes against God's commands, the law is right. I think Yawheh is god, but I am not sure.

Correct on both counts.

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 01:47 AM
Apples and rocks.

A gun has NOTHING to do with a Scriptural practice of my faith.

Scripture is Yahweh's weapon - gun is man's.

Yahweh gave us Scripture - He breathed it and it is living.
Gun is desighned and made by men to accomplish the desire of men.

I can't believe this comparison is even being made.
It's not apples and rocks, judging from your reply, your answer to my question would be a "no, you wouldn't hand your Bible over to big bro"(therefore disobeying government) so your following statements below don't line up with your answer on this question. There is no specific command that says that if your government tells you to hand over your Bible that you should disobey them and not do it but everyone here(including yourself?) agrees that they wouldn't do it, so just as there is no specific command that we should own arms, there are Scriptures that speak to a man protecting his house/family so bearing arms goes along with that. Bearing arms for the protection of innocent lives is no different than disobeying the government in order to hide Jewish people when they are demanding us to turn them in for annihilation.


Not if the supreme court interpreted right to bear arms differently than you.
Their ruling would be LAW - yours would be disobedince.


The supreme court, and their authority was established by the founders of this nation - so if their interpretation if different than yours, theirs becomes law.
We are COMMANDED to obey the governing authorities.

A rebellious spirit is not of Yahweh.
Even if they say, "turn your Bibles in to us"? Or "turn in your Jewish neighbors to us"?

EarlyCall
Nov 27th 2008, 02:00 AM
Didn't Moses rebel against the government? Reads like it to me. Elijah killed a bunch of government prophets of baal and the government (Jezebel) got really ticked off about it too. Reads like rebellion to me.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 02:02 AM
It's not apples and rocks, judging from your reply, your answer to my question would be a "no, you wouldn't hand your Bible over to big bro"(therefore disobeying government) so your following statements below don't line up with your answer on this question. There is no specific command that says that if your government tells you to hand over your Bible that you should disobey them and not do it but everyone here(including yourself?) agrees that they wouldn't do it, so just as there is no specific command that we should own arms, there are Scriptures that speak to a man protecting his house/family so bearing arms goes along with that. Bearing arms for the protection of innocent lives is no different than disobeying the government in order to hide Jewish people when they are demanding us to turn them in for annihilation.




Even if they say, "turn your Bibles in to us"? Or "turn in your Jewish neighbors to us"?

Equating gun ownership with Scripture possession is really really reaching.

Scripture was given to us by Yahweh - breathed by Him.
It's part of our walk of faith.

All Scripture is Elohim breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

(2 Timothy 3:16)


We are called to take it up:



And take The Helmet of Salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of Elohim.

(Ephesians 6:17)


By your reasoning, those that continued to drink and sell booze during prohibition were justified.

Or those that use weed (which USE to be legal) are justified.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 02:04 AM
Didn't Moses rebel against the government? Reads like it to me. Elijah killed a bunch of government prophets of baal and the government (Jezebel) got really ticked off about it too. Reads like rebellion to me.

They were obeying Yahweh - NOT the same.
Also that was before the command to obey the government given through Peter.

Dragonfighter1
Nov 27th 2008, 02:06 AM
By your reasoning, those that continued to drink and sell booze during prohibition were justified.

Or those that use weed (which USE to be legal) are justified.
Dude, usually your points are cogent... what happened here? That's the silliest post you ever made.
I've come to expect better argumentation from you. Your gonna lose some points if you start appealing to "straw men"

Dragonfighter1
Nov 27th 2008, 02:09 AM
They were obeying Yahweh - NOT the same.
Also that was before the command to obey the government given through Peter.
Peter didnt reveal new truth. It seems form the context that he was stating obvious truth. Do you have any reason to believe otherwise.. I ask because I want to know, not to offend...

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 02:11 AM
Dude, usually your points are cogent... what happened here? That's the silliest post you ever made.
I've come to expect better argumentation from you. Your gonna lose some points if you start appealing to "straw men"

Well equating drugs and booze with guns is a whole lot closer than equating guns with Scripture - I'm just showing the slippery slope of the gun issue.

We are guarantee the pursuit of happiness - some might apply that to weed since it use to be legal, and the govt then outlawed it.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 02:20 AM
Peter didnt reveal new truth. It seems form the context that he was stating obvious truth. Do you have any reason to believe otherwise.. I ask because I want to know, not to offend...

Well I see no other place in Scripture, prior to Messiah, that we are commanded to obey the Govt.

But then, when Peter wrote that, things had made a drastic change.
Elohim's children were the nation of Israel - now his children are in all the nations.

I can see where it would not be new truth, since His children were expected to obey Saul, and David, and Solomon ect..

But still Moses and EliYah were directly obeying Yahweh.
We are to obey governments, as long as they don't violate or contradict Yahweh's commands.

EarlyCall
Nov 27th 2008, 02:20 AM
They were obeying Yahweh - NOT the same.
Also that was before the command to obey the government given through Peter.

Yes they were to be sure. But if God calls it wrong now, why did He call it right then? Is it ever right now? Always wrong now?

I don't have all of this settled in my mind, so I'm not necessarily arguing with you at every point.

EarlyCall
Nov 27th 2008, 02:26 AM
Well I see no other place in Scripture, prior to Messiah, that we are commanded to obey the Govt.

But then, when Peter wrote that, things had made a drastic change.
Elohim's children were the nation of Israel - now his children are in all the nations.

I can see where it would not be new truth, since His children were expected to obey Saul, and David, and Solomon ect..

But still Moses and EliYah were directly obeying Yahweh.
We are to obey governments, as long as they don't violate or contradict Yahweh's commands.

God very often does not spell everything our for us. When God appointed David king, David was God's king over Israel. Do you think God wanted David obeyed? Did God have to spell that out or do you think it was understood?

But I'm thinking if you look for it, you will find scripture to support that.

NHL Fever
Nov 27th 2008, 02:34 AM
Good debate. I think the most important thing is to remember that just because the US was founded by Christians does not make its political system christian, nor does it make the constitution the inspired word of God. It should not be treated as such. What it is exactly, is very interesting and I think at the heart of what the debate is really all about. Whether right to bear arms is actually good for the country is another debate for another time.

For Rufus a few points.



"And the priest said, The sword of Goliath the Philistine, whom thou slewest in the valley of Elah, behold, it is here wrapped in a cloth behind the ephod: if thou wilt take that, take it: for there is no other save that here. And David said, There is none like that; give it me." - 1 Samuel 21:9

It really makes no sense to argue from this, its full of fallacy, here's why:
1) You are arguing for the right to bear a weapon based on a recorded action of David, not on the words of any prophet or Jesus. David was a sinner like all men, him doing something does not mean its necessarily either ordained by God, or the right thing to do. David had a man killed and slept with his wife. By your reasoning, we would be justified in doing the same. Take another example which was non-sinful for him - having many wives. He choose numerous wives, by your reasoning I can as well, because the OT records him doing that and therefore endorses it for me.
2) You are using old testament material. The OT asks for such things as stoning for being a difficult child or having premarital sex. It also is absolutely full of all manner of actions that are not appropriate for us, just because somebody is noted to have done something in the OT does not make it your spiritual obligation or right.
3) The passage you present is not a commentary on self defense, its a single verse with no related context. It would the same if I read about David hiding in the caves, and therefore made living in caves a central right and duty connected to my faith.
4) When David took the sword, he was in a spirit of fear, which he was not supposed to be in. He took the sword and defended himself? No, the next verse records that he fled. Although he was anointed by God, he had an ungodly spirit of fear at that moment, and made that decision. He made the same mistake when he had the Israelites counted because he did not trust God, and wanted to have some earthly material to rely on. You are taking one of David's weakest moments and centralizing it to your belief system. Bad idea.


That would be an incorrect understanding. Daniel and his friends were disobedient to government, Paul was disobedient, Peter was disobedient, Martin Luther was disobedient, Wycliffe was disobedient, Tyndale was disobedient, John Bunyan was disobedient, Obadiah Holmes was disobedient, Roger Williams was disobedient, the black-robe regiment was disobedient, Patrick Henry was disobedient, etc. etc. etc. The history of the church is replete with examples of faithful Christians forsaking the good favor of being a statist and instead chose to serve God, regardless of the cost or consequence.

Daniel, Peter and Paul were reacting directly in obedience to God's command, which happened to be against the law. Owning a gun is not a command by God, neither is not owning one, regardless of whether its your earthly legal right or not. The government is not making you disobey God by restricting your weapons, whereas it was making Peter and Paul disobey the law by restricting their ministry. If having a weapon was a command by God, then Jesus himself was sinning by not carrying one.


I will obey the law.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

But you don't have a militia, so the second is already out the window if you're honest about it. The militia was furthermore supposed to be more powerful than the federal army, for precisely the purpose of being able to repel the federal army if need be. Is that the situation you exist in? Should it be?


Jesus DID endorse his apostles carrying weapons:

Luk 22:36 He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one."


And then in his very next words, what did Jesus describe as adequate to meet that request of his? Two swords. Two swords was enough for whatever he was commanding them to do according to Jesus. Jesus and disciples went around with many people, including women, support personel, followers etc. Two swords, for 13 men and perhaps hundreds of others as entourage. Clearly that would not have been adequate protection in real terms, Jesus must have been speaking about something greater, as he routinely did. So if you really want to use that verse as a literal endorsement of a spiritual right to have earthly weapons, then you should follow it literally, and have only two of them for a group of people.

Furthermore, after supposedly endorsing the arming of his disciples, he later tells Peter to put away his sword. Contradiction? This is the main issue here, many people mainly in the states love guns and desperately want it to be in scripture. The verse about buying a sword is always quoted, but how do you rectify that with the multiple verses about not reacting violently in the face of violence? For examples Peter in the garden, as well as Paul telling us to die is gain, and Jesus saying that if we seek to save our life we will lose it, and to love and pray for our enemies, and to repay evil with kindness, and on and on. Finally, Jesus also did not speak out against the highly controlling, highly oppressive Roman regime against the Jews, who were many-fold more worthy in worldly terms of being resisted than the US government. Jesus spoke not of political issues in the world, but of the greater heavenly reality. If self-defense an integral part of it, he surely would have endorsed a more resistant posture to Roman exploitation and persecution.


EN, if big brother made it illegal to own a Bible... woud you give up the your Bibles?
That would be restricting your faith by law, which the bible shows should be resisted. Banning guns in not restricting your faith according to the bible, unless you have scripture to support otherwise.





But does this mean owning weapons in the face of a law banning them is disobedience to scripture? Not necessarily.

All the above of course, relies on the premise that the law is a ban on guns. But the point is quite legitimate, that perhaps the constitution is a higher authority than the law-makers, and that obedience to the laws of the land in fact means obedience to the constitution. I've made that argument in the past myself from a perspective on the Christian right to demonstrate and vote. Of course, the debate is not settled on whether or not the 2nd applies when all other parts of it have been disregarded by those than claim to make it their standard.

In summary, banning guns is unconstitutional according to the 2nd, but the 2nd is not followed so perhaps the supporter of guns on the basis of the 2nd is a hypocrite unless he supports the entire 2nd, including a limited federal military. The constitution may be a higher authority than a law which is unconstitutional, its unclear which leader to obey according to the bible, as both clearly would have some God given authority. There is very little to no evidence in the bible suggesting the right to bear arms is a spiritual or Christian right or any kind. Bearing arms may be your earthly right, but it has nothing specifically to do with Christ or your faith, and there are many more verses supporting not being violent, even in the face of violence, than there are for using weapons for defense, for which there is only one and its hotly debated at that.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 02:37 AM
Yes they were to be sure. But if God calls it wrong now, why did He call it right then? Is it ever right now? Always wrong now?

I don't have all of this settled in my mind, so I'm not necessarily arguing with you at every point.

Look at Moses, he disobeyed Egypt's law by killing the Egyptian - and look at the result.

We are to obey Yahweh first and foremost, we are to obey the governing authorities as long as they don't conflict with obeying Yahweh.

We are called to make disciples, and be witnesses for Messiah - outlawing sharing ones faith would put us in conflict with Messiah's commandments - obey God and not men.

I see no command of Yahweh to keep guns.

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 02:48 AM
By your reasoning, those that continued to drink and sell booze during prohibition were justified.

Or those that use weed (which USE to be legal) are justified.
No... by my reasoning, innocent lives can be protected by the bearing of arms... no lives can be saved by booze or weed... apples and rocks.

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 02:51 AM
Look at Moses, he disobeyed Egypt's law by killing the Egyptian - and look at the result.


Yeah YHWH chose him to set His people free. :cool:

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 03:05 AM
No... by my reasoning, innocent lives can be protected by the bearing of arms... no lives can be saved by booze or weed... apples and rocks.

Look at how many innocent children of Yahweh died at the hands of the oppressive Roman empire - the disciples didn't raise up sword to stop it.
Look at Stephan's example.

Look at the prophets - most all were killed by the Hebrew leaders, did they fight back?

All the apostles but John died as martyr - they didn't fight back.

It's a matter of having an eternal perspective and focus rather than a temporal one.

Messiah said to not fear those that can kill only the body.

Dragonfighter1
Nov 27th 2008, 03:08 AM
Eaglenester.. are you saying you won't defend yourself if you are attacked?

If you would, please explain HOW? and to what lengths you would go.

Thanks
DF

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 03:09 AM
Yeah YHWH chose him to set His people free. :cool:

AFTER having to go into the desert for all those years cause he tried to do it according to his flesh and might, rather than by Yahweh's leading and power.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 03:20 AM
Eaglenester.. are you saying you won't defend yourself if you are attacked?

If you would, please explain HOW? and to what lengths you would go.

Thanks
DF

The correct reaction would be to listen to Yahweh's Spirit and submit to His leading and will - like Stephen did.

Look at Paul - Messiah told him how much he was to suffer for the Kingdom's sake, he didn't fight back - he went willingly.
Look how many people were brought into the Kingdom by his actions and behavior.

Do you think Stephen's witness had an impact on Paul?

History records that when Paul was beheaded - one of the head soldiers present was won to Messiah by Paul's display of Messiah through his death.

My life is meaningless compared to Yahweh's eternal Kingdom - if my death can be used by Yahweh to bring someone into His Kingdom, Glory to Elohim.

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 04:10 AM
Look at how many innocent children of Yahweh died at the hands of the oppressive Roman empire - the disciples didn't raise up sword to stop it.
Look at Stephan's example.

Look at the prophets - most all were killed by the Hebrew leaders, did they fight back?

All the apostles but John died as martyr - they didn't fight back.

It's a matter of having an eternal perspective and focus rather than a temporal one.

Messiah said to not fear those that can kill only the body.
EN, would you turn your Jewish friends over to big bro to be killed if big bro told you to do so? Would you tell your Jewish friends, "don't fear those that can kill the body" as you were handing them over to be killed? Was David, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, Pinnehas, Deborah etc. not righteous in YHWH's eyes? YHWH uses people who bear weapons for His purpose.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 04:41 AM
EN, would you turn your Jewish friends over to big bro to be killed if big bro told you to do so? Would you tell your Jewish friends, "don't fear those that can kill the body" as you were handing them over to be killed? Was David, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, Pinnehas, Deborah etc. not righteous in YHWH's eyes? YHWH uses people who bear weapons for His purpose.

I wouldn't break out a gun and start shooting.

I wouldn't tell those not saved to not fear those that kill just the body.

I wouldn't turn them over to assist in murder.

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 04:48 AM
I wouldn't break out a gun and start shooting.

You say that as tho those of us who are pro arm-bearing would just start shooting willy nilly for no reason at all. If you did own a gun and men broke into your home and started to rape and beat your wife would you use your gun to defend her or would you tell her, "don't fear those that can kill the body" as you just sat and watched?



Was David, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, Pinnehas, Deborah etc. not righteous in YHWH's eyes? YHWH uses people who bear weapons for His purpose.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 04:52 AM
You say that as tho those of us who are pro arm-bearing would just start shooting willy nilly for no reason at all. If you did own a gun and men broke into your home and started to rape and beat your wife would you use your gun to defend her or would you tell her, "don't fear those that can kill the body" as you just sat and watched?

Go back and read my earlier posts - I answered the "what if" already

If you want to get into crude "what ifs" than discussion is OVER.

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 05:00 AM
Go back and read my earlier posts - I answered the "what if" already

If you want to get into crude "what ifs" than discussion is OVER.
I'm sorry but I'm not trying to get into "crude what if's", this could be a real scenerio, as I explained in one of my posts that a friend of mine is alive today b/c she used her gun against a man who was trying to rape and kill her. I don't remember where you answered the question on protecting your wife from a rapist, could you give me the link to that post?

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 05:05 AM
I'm sorry but I'm not trying to get into "crude what if's", this could be a real scenerio, as I explained in one of my posts that a friend of mine is alive today b/c she used her gun against a man who was trying to rape and kill her. I don't remember where you answered the question on protecting your wife from a rapist, could you give me the link to that post?

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1883245&postcount=123 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1883245&postcount=123)

And this "what if" is off topic.

The topic isn't about owning guns - I have NO issue with that.

The topic is if owning a gun became ILLEGAL - would you break the law.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 05:12 AM
If you did own a gun and men broke into your home and started to rape and beat your wife would you use your gun to defend her or would you tell her, "don't fear those that can kill the body" as you just sat and watched?

Also I don't own a gun - so this "what if" is a dead straw man.

What if you were walking on the moon an an alien want to have sex with you to save their race?

We could go anywhere with this and get NO WHERE.

Ashley274
Nov 27th 2008, 05:12 AM
No giving up my guns....not giving up my Bible....Nor would I feel President Bush or President-elect Obama should have to have a secret service without weapons.....God gives us things....like doctors...to say God will take care of everything is like overlooking the gifts he has gven us.....and great posting on WE the people as being the goverenment I forget who posted that but it was dead on

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 05:18 AM
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1883245&postcount=123 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1883245&postcount=123)

And this "what if" is off topic.

The topic isn't about owning guns - I have NO issue with that.

The topic is if owning a gun became ILLEGAL - would you break the law.
I think we've established that if the the law requires innocent lives to be lost then it's okay to break the law... since many lives have been saved due to the bearing of arms then there is nothing wrong with breaking the law. History shows us that when governemnts disarm the people that they're up to no good...

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 05:23 AM
No giving up my guns....not giving up my Bible....

So you put guns and Scripture in the same catagory?
You would break the law over guns?



Nor would I feel President Bush or President-elect Obama should have to have a secret service without weapons.....God gives us things....like doctors...to say God will take care of everything is like overlooking the gifts he has gven us.....and great posting on WE the people as being the goverenment I forget who posted that but it was dead on

None of this is pertinent to the topic.

And "we" aren't the government - we elect people to represent us in the government.

Merriam Webster dictionary

the act or process of governing (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/governing) ; specifically : authoritative direction or control

the office, authority, or function of governing (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/governing)

the continuous exercise of authority over and the performance of functions for a political unit

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 05:26 AM
I think we've established that if the the law requires innocent lives to be lost then it's okay to break the law... since many lives have been saved due to the bearing of arms then there is nothing wrong with breaking the law. History shows us that when governemnts disarm the people that they're up to no good...

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

People can justify many actions and behavior with that type of humanist logic

So I could own a tank or grenade launcher then even though it's illegal

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 05:27 AM
Also I don't own a gun - so this "what if" is a dead straw man.

What if you were walking on the moon an an alien want to have sex with you to save their race?

We could go anywhere with this and get NO WHERE.
Okay then, I'm willing to bet you have a knife/bat/2x4(anything that could be a weapon) laying around your place... would you use them to defend your wife or any other innocent person from an attacker? If you say "yes" then that means you realize the value of saving innocent lives by necessary means(use of weapons).

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 05:30 AM
Okay then, I'm willing to bet you have a knife/bat/2x4(anything that could be a weapon) laying around your place... would you use them to defend your wife or any other innocent person from an attacker? If you say "yes" then that means you realize the value of saving innocent lives by necessary means(use of weapons).

DID YOU READ MY POST

You are like a record stuck on a skip

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 05:34 AM
Okay then, I'm willing to bet you have a knife/bat/2x4(anything that could be a weapon) laying around your place... would you use them to defend your wife or any other innocent person from an attacker? If you say "yes" then that means you realize the value of saving innocent lives by necessary means(use of weapons).


Actually - your repeated "what if" scenario reveals you don't understand the concept I posted as a response

And your question is OFF TOPIC - your missing the point of the discussion.

TrustingFollower
Nov 27th 2008, 05:37 AM
OK guy's bring this back to the topic or we can just call this discussion done it your choice.

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 05:43 AM
People can justify many actions and behavior with that type of humanist logic

So I could own a tank or grenade launcher then even though it's illegal
You're not getting it... Hitler, Stalin, and Mao imposed gun control laws in order to pursue their evil agendas. Guns can be used to save lives. Saving of innocent lives is Scripturally sound! Governemnts disarming people is not Scripturally sound... it means that they're up to no good/killing and oppresing innocent people.

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 05:45 AM
DID YOU READ MY POST

You are like a record stuck on a skip
Ditto, there's been several key things you haven't addressed in my posts. ;)

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 05:47 AM
OK guy's bring this back to the topic or we can just call this discussion done it your choice.
I believe I've been on topic, when a government wants to disarm the people it means the gov is up to no good... massive loss of life usually follows, therefore it is okay to disobey the gov if they wanted to repeat what other tyrants have done throughout history.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 05:50 AM
You're not getting it... Hitler, Stalin, and Mao imposed gun control laws in order to pursue their evil agendas. Guns can be used to save lives. Saving of innocent lives is Scripturally sound! Governemnts disarming people is not Scripturally sound... it means that they're up to no good/killing and oppresing innocent people.

No YOU'RE not getting.

How Messiah and the apostles lived under a evil occupying government DO NOT back up your stand.

Our purpose isn't to fight evil governments with man-made weapons - Messiah and the apostles DIDN'T even try.

Our job is to make disciples

Our weapon is The Word of Yahweh and prayer

Our aim is the heart.

We are to overcome evil with GOOD - not try to stamp it out - can't happen.

We are to PRAY for our enemies - not kill them.

Eaglenester
Nov 27th 2008, 06:00 AM
Ditto, there's been several key things you haven't addressed in my posts. ;)

I've addressed all you've asked that pertain to this topic.

diffangle
Nov 27th 2008, 06:06 AM
Our purpose isn't to fight evil governments with man-made weapons - Messiah and the apostles DIDN'T even try.


We aren't Yahushua or the apostles, you chose to marry, you chose to be the head/protector of a family, you haven't forgone that in order to travel the globe spreading the Gospel, correct?

quiet dove
Nov 27th 2008, 06:07 AM
Ok, this is off topic and going in circles at this point.

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