This is just how I have changed:
I am not implying it's suggestive for others.

Years ago I watched a documentary about teenage pregnancy and one of the girls had a mom who spent all her time reading the Bible.
Even when they were interviewing her daughter, you could see her mom in the corner reading the Book and taking notes. The girl said when she was pregnant, it was a hard blow for her mom and even when the child was two years ago her mom couldn't believe it actually happened.

That scared me because I use to be the kind of person who was so absorbed in the word. I was afraid something like that would happen to me (lol - not get pregnant, but just have a close family member do something that would put barriers in front of their life).

I understand everyone has their own free-will, I just found it strange that a mom who is so absorbed in the Bible would end up with a daughter pregnant at 15.

Well, I believe the answer came to me. Believe it or not, I felt God told me that it's also important to pay attention to the people around you. Yes, reading the Bible is excellent - but it's possible this mom was only focused on the Bible and hoping God would intervene with her family members, when in fact our involvement with friends and family is important.

That's just what I learned, and now I am kind of in a mode of balancing the Bible-studying and taking care of my family - showing them the Love He has showed me.

And I do admit my relationships with people around me have gotten better immensely.

CL

Hi CL -

Good post! To me, it's the difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge. You can have a whole lot of head knowledge, be able to quote scripture from Genesis to maps - but if that knowledge never penetrates to the heart, if the active relationship with Jesus isn't there, then the head knowledge is dry and lifeless.

Just my two cents -
V

Yes, good post. Our families and friends are a responsibility, and it's possible to be too Martha-like when we're think we're being Mary-esque.

Hiding in the Bible and not living life is another one of satan's tricks to rob us of our life. Christ died so that we wouldn't have to suffer the consequences of our sin. Guilt and worry are some of those consequences. After we come to Christ, it is reasonable to expect that he would show us ways to glorify the Father. How can I feel closer to God if I don't live the life that he has provided?

James 1:22
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

I agree completely with OP.
The only thing I would add is to remember that sometimes those harships are part of a persons walk in God. When I was 15 and sitting at the kitchen table pregnant, my (step)father asked me: "What did we do wrong?!?" That hurt so much. But the answer was "Nothing". Having my son saved my life (read: long story here). And it was exactly what I needed. God knew that. I can't imagine how hard that was for my parents to accept.

I agree completely with OP.
The only thing I would add is to remember that sometimes those harships are part of a persons walk in God. When I was 15 and sitting at the kitchen table pregnant, my (step)father asked me: "What did we do wrong?!?" That hurt so much. But the answer was "Nothing". Having my son saved my life (read: long story here). And it was exactly what I needed. God knew that. I can't imagine how hard that was for my parents to accept.
Maybe they also needed a lesson - because they still loved you even though you had "made a mistake" - so they could perhaps come to terms with the fact that God still loves them when they make their own mistakes.

There are so many things God uses to teach us. Life is filled with lessons to help us grow in the Lord if we just wait and listen.

Thanks for sharing this - and I am thankful you have your son!
V

I agree completely with OP.
The only thing I would add is to remember that sometimes those harships are part of a persons walk in God. When I was 15 and sitting at the kitchen table pregnant, my (step)father asked me: "What did we do wrong?!?" That hurt so much. But the answer was "Nothing". Having my son saved my life (read: long story here). And it was exactly what I needed. God knew that. I can't imagine how hard that was for my parents to accept.

Many times the newborn is the vehicle or gift from God that aids in the healing. All babies are miracles. I am glad that you can see it.

Maybe they also needed a lesson - because they still loved you even though you had "made a mistake" - so they could perhaps come to terms with the fact that God still loves them when they make their own mistakes.

There are so many things God uses to teach us. Life is filled with lessons to help us grow in the Lord if we just wait and listen.

Thanks for sharing this - and I am thankful you have your son!
V
Excellent point. My son is 12 now, be 13 in March, and my parents always marvel over what a wonderful child he is. Well mannered, honor roll student, caring, patient, considerate, funny, thoughtful.... I still don't think they realize how much of this comes from the christian values I teach him. But he is definitely a testimony in himself.

Excellent point. My son is 12 now, be 13 in March, and my parents always marvel over what a wonderful child he is. Well mannered, honor roll student, caring, patient, considerate, funny, thoughtful.... I still don't think they realize how much of this comes from the christian values I teach him. But he is definitely a testimony in himself.

That's blessed and I am so happy for you and your son. Sounds like the Life (Christ) you helped him learn about is shining as we speak.

You sound like the kind of mom who doesn't hide behind her Bible but expresses it through her thoughts, actions and speech.

I could learn a lot from you when my time for motherhood comes.
CL

Bible study and spending time with the Lord gives us strength to deal with reality and with the people around us, who God commands us to love and care for.

There are people, though, who view prayer time and Bible study as a way to avoid having to deal with reality. They're so spiritually minded that they're of no earthly good, so to speak, and believe me, I've been there. But God yanked me out of that and made me understand that I can't be an ostrich and use the Bible or God as the proverbial sand to stick my head into.

We can't be afraid of life or its challenges. We will have tribulation. People around us need us, and our presence in their lives does make a difference, no matter how we feel, because we bring Jesus with us. Studying the Bible doesn't magically by osmosis bring God to someone else. We actually have to be involved in their lives and pay attention and be that vessel God uses. Jesus was always found around people, in their midst, being there, being aware, and meeting their needs. Why would we be different?

Bible study and spending time with the Lord gives us strength to deal with reality and with the people around us, who God commands us to love and care for.

There are people, though, who view prayer time and Bible study as a way to avoid having to deal with reality. They're so spiritually minded that they're of no earthly good, so to speak, and believe me, I've been there. But God yanked me out of that and made me understand that I can't be an ostrich and use the Bible or God as the proverbial sand to stick my head into.

We can't be afraid of life or its challenges. We will have tribulation. People around us need us, and our presence in their lives does make a difference, no matter how we feel, because we bring Jesus with us. Studying the Bible doesn't magically by osmosis bring God to someone else. We actually have to be involved in their lives and pay attention and be that vessel God uses. Jesus was always found around people, in their midst, being there, being aware, and meeting their needs. Why would we be different?
right! the studying is great, but it's the application of what we learn that we all need to work on!

That's blessed and I am so happy for you and your son. Sounds like the Life (Christ) you helped him learn about is shining as we speak.

You sound like the kind of mom who doesn't hide behind her Bible but expresses it through her thoughts, actions and speech.

I could learn a lot from you when my time for motherhood comes.
CL

That is SOO nice of you to say! I think we all need help from one another as moms. I'll listen to advice anytime!

Why does it surprise you that a mom who reads the bible would have a 15 yr old daughter who is pregnant...Its called free will. I am 31 years old and a Christian and love the Lord but I am pregnant with my 2nd child out of wedlock (the 1st one is 10 and then I have a son from my exhusband who is 6 and now I am due in Feb and it is not his) and I am not married. People make mistakes. I know I did but I also know I am being blessed with a baby girl in February. God has a reason for everything that happens in our lives and I think people lose sight of that. I read my bible and pray and help with our divorce care class and am trying to teach my children about the love of the Lord (which isnt easy when you have a daddy that left mommy and married the other woman and the kids have to live with it). I am not perfect, none of us are and I dont live the perfect Christian life. We all have free will and we all make wrong choices.

Why does it surprise you that a mom who reads the bible would have a 15 yr old daughter who is pregnant...Its called free will. I am 31 years old and a Christian and love the Lord but I am pregnant with my 2nd child out of wedlock (the 1st one is 10 and then I have a son from my exhusband who is 6 and now I am due in Feb and it is not his) and I am not married. People make mistakes. I know I did but I also know I am being blessed with a baby girl in February. God has a reason for everything that happens in our lives and I think people lose sight of that. I read my bible and pray and help with our divorce care class and am trying to teach my children about the love of the Lord (which isnt easy when you have a daddy that left mommy and married the other woman and the kids have to live with it). I am not perfect, none of us are and I dont live the perfect Christian life. We all have free will and we all make wrong choices.

It surprised me because to have a mom so absorbed in the Bible you would expect her to teach her daughter the ten commandments, including the commandment that stresses 'wait for sex until you are married'.

And as I said before, in my original post, I UNDERSTAND everyone has free-will, so my 'surprise' is not coming from her daughter's choice...

Perhaps she did teach her daughter the Right Path but perhaps she was too busy teaching herself the Bible that she didn't get around to it - that was the point of my original post.

I didn't create a post to criticize people who have children out of wedlock. I created a post because I sense God taught me "don't hide behind your Bible".

:cool:

The same Spirit of God guides both our bible reading and our lives. We need to constantly be asking our Lord to put us where he needs us. His Will, not Ours.

It's only about a year since i got out of the bible, and started applying it daily in my life. My prayer is that this lady, had the same revelation i did and is now teaching bible principles to her grand child.

The funny thing is, i now read the bible more than i ever did - but it's only part of my faith these days. SofTy. :pp

where was the father???
Little girls have to have a father that is clean and is their world for them not to fall into sexual sin. A girl 99% of the time will seek another male if her daddy isn't their for her to be her man (in a pure sense). And a father in immorality is almsot guaranteed to have a daughter that is immoral. Not many daughters know if their fathers have a lust problem. Sadly you can have the Godliest mom in the world and your father makes or breaks it.

The sins of the fathers are passed down to the 3rd and 4th generation to them that hate him-
hate him means those that do not obey him.

Just another thing from a former mom out of wedlock (not by choice)...
having sex isn't making a mistake. It is sin. It is a choice that not only do you have to plan for, It is action after action of an event.
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. My sin is I knew I was where I knew I shouldn't have been. Still part of sin.

Awesome post CL. :D

For me, being in the Word is such a wonderful time of refreshment and learning that often times, I will be tempted to neglect other things and responsibilities just to do that. God gave us His Word in order to nourish and teach us, not to enable us to escape.....but if we do use it to replace other things in our lives, or as an escape, then we are neglecting our God-given responsibilities.

I really think there has to be a medium. It is our responsibility to become built up in the Word, but not at the expense of the people and things that God puts in our lives.

From what you have described in the OP, I can't make a judgement call either way regarding the mother. I do know of some Christians who become so staunch and rigorous in their quest for holiness that they completely neglect the reality of human frailty. They place their expectations so high, and almost expect perfection from their children. Then, when their children fall into sin, it's as though they become personally offended, and ask "What did I do wrong?" It automatically becomes all about them, and not about helping their children come to repentance.

It's all a matter of pride, really, and self-centeredness.....It's almost as though they think that their child's sin is a reflection of their own Christian walk. If the parent would take the focus off of himself or herself, the problem could be dealt with properly.

The best you can do, really, is teach your child in the ways of the Lord, so that they make their own decisions, and not the decisions that you want them to make. You want them to grow up to be Godly people, so that they enjoy a rich and God-filled life, and if they make mistakes, you want them to repent so that they have peace in their heart.

I find it odd that the woman in question would take that particular opportunity to read the Bible, rather than being by her daughter's side to support her. It's as if she makes sure to read the Bible on camera so that everyone watching knows what a great Christian she is, and how into the Word she is. She wouldn't want anyone to think that her daughter's mistake was a reflection of her.

I think it backfired on her.

For me, being in the Word is such a wonderful time of refreshment and learning that often times, I will be tempted to neglect other things and responsibilities just to do that. God gave us His Word in order to nourish and teach us, not to enable us to escape.....but if we do use it to replace other things in our lives, or as an escape, then we are neglecting our God-given responsibilities.

I really think there has to be a medium. It is our responsibility to become built up in the Word, but not at the expense of the people and things that God puts in our lives.

From what you have described in the OP, I can't make a judgement call either way regarding the mother. I do know of some Christians who become so staunch and rigorous in their quest for holiness that they completely neglect the reality of human frailty. They place their expectations so high, and almost expect perfection from their children. Then, when their children fall into sin, it's as though they become personally offended, and ask "What did I do wrong?" It automatically becomes all about them, and not about helping their children come to repentance.

It's all a matter of pride, really, and self-centeredness.....It's almost as though they think that their child's sin is a reflection of their own Christian walk. If the parent would take the focus off of himself or herself, the problem could be dealt with properly.

The best you can do, really, is teach your child in the ways of the Lord, so that they make their own decisions, and not the decisions that you want them to make. You want them to grow up to be Godly people, so that they enjoy a rich and God-filled life, and if they make mistakes, you want them to repent so that they have peace in their heart.

I find it odd that the woman in question would take that particular opportunity to read the Bible, rather than being by her daughter's side to support her. It's as if she makes sure to read the Bible on camera so that everyone watching knows what a great Christian she is, and how into the Word she is. She wouldn't want anyone to think that her daughter's mistake was a reflection of her.

I think it backfired on her.
Thia is a great point... all of it. I may also just add that sex out of wedlock is a sin. True. However, is it any different then any of the other sins that teens committ? I think that getting pregnant is a gift from God. and you get pregnant because it's God's will. Therefore, you could be a family of the best people in the world. If it is in God's plan for you in your life to get pregnant at 15, 14, 16, whatever.... You do the best you can with what you get. I did and it worked for me.

where was the father???
Little girls have to have a father that is clean and is their world for them not to fall into sexual sin. A girl 99% of the time will seek another male if her daddy isn't their for her to be her man (in a pure sense). And a father in immorality is almsot guaranteed to have a daughter that is immoral. Not many daughters know if their fathers have a lust problem. Sadly you can have the Godliest mom in the world and your father makes or breaks it.

The sins of the fathers are passed down to the 3rd and 4th generation to them that hate him-
hate him means those that do not obey him.

CNW, sometimes communication gets lost over the internet. I just want to clarify (and I'm speaking from personal experience).
A person who grew up with a sinning father is offered a way to overcome sin and create a new life, free from the bonds of sin, in the name of Christ.

And that being said, regarding the 'sins being passed down into generations', you did indicate "to them that hate Him" meaning once you accept Christ as your personal savior, you are considered a child of God, which evidently means you have a new Father who is perfect.

CL

this is not Spiritually true. Hating God is the oposite of loving God and loving God is living in Obedience to him. so hating god is living in sin and very few children (very very few) come to know Christ and live opposite of the environment they live and are taught-under the parent who hates God. If you have a father living in immorality even if you are adopted there is still spiritual bondage until it is confessed and dealt with. It is a stronghold. Is there a chance a person can be free from the sin? absolutely, but highly unlikely unless there is a lot they go through to occomplish it. This is why we have so many children living in sin and our generations just get worse. Even Christians can't understand why they have these bondages...If the fathers would come clean there would be an amazing change in the lives of families. Just saying a prayer doesn't save you and make you a child of God.

In this instance my question still stands...where is the father?

I have a dear cousin whose husband is a retired Pastor and has pastored several churches over the years before his retirement. But he didn't just retire. He left the position due to the fact that he has heart problems now and can no longer take on the burden of pastoring a congregation, with all their burdens and problems.

Their youngest daughter got pregnant at a young age while he was pastoring a church. The girl sincerely believed the young boy really loved her, but due to immaturity, she just thought she was "in luv", as she puts it now.

Now, remember, her dad was the PASTOR of a church. But not one time did I ever hear them ask, Where did we go wrong with our daughter. I want to add, that I am a relative who has always been very close to the Pastor's family--She and I literally grew up together, near each other. When we reached dating age, we often double dated and I was the one who introduced her to the man she married. He went to school with me.
I know them WELL and can testify they are wonderful Christian people.

So if they had ever asked, Where did we go wrong? I would have heard it at some time or another. I remember when she told me their daughter was expecting a baby. She added, "Judy, I think this could happen to anyone's daughter. But we know our daughter will have a hard time, being a single Mom. So please pray that we'll have the means to help her with the baby for as long as she needs help."

And that's exactly what they did. They rallied around that daughter, whose heart was broken and who was left to rear the baby alone. They kept the baby for her, so she could go back to work. My cousin made sure she was at home when the young Mom was working, so the child would not be left here and there. My cousin was the one who made trips to the school when the child got sick and had to come home. And often took her for Dr visits.

They ALL stayed in church, in the Lord, in His Word, and just did the best to cope and move on.

That was at least 25 years ago. The unmarried Mom never did marry, but has raised a Godly daughter. And the baby born to her is grown now and recently bought a nice home for her and her Mom to live in. She is presently seeing a young man, whom she will probably marry. But I just have a feeling they may just get them another house, and let Mom have the two bedroom one they are presently in. Her boyfriend is a Godly man, goes to church with them and the whole family says he just fits into their family.

To me...this is the way it should be. It's too late to play the "blame game." Don't be too hard of the Bible reading Mom. We don't know much about her. Its not really fair to say any of this was her fault. The girl got pregnant. Thank God she isn't having an abortion!

Rally around her, help her, show her the right way to go on with life in a Godly way, teach her how to guide her baby in the paths of righteousness.

And...don't point out someone else's ring around the collar without checking first to see if our own neck is dirty!

this is not Spiritually true. Hating God is the oposite of loving God and loving God is living in Obedience to him. so hating god is living in sin and very few children (very very few) come to know Christ and live opposite of the environment they live and are taught-under the parent who hates God. If you have a father living in immorality even if you are adopted there is still spiritual bondage until it is confessed and dealt with. It is a stronghold. Is there a chance a person can be free from the sin? absolutely, but highly unlikely unless there is a lot they go through to occomplish it. This is why we have so many children living in sin and our generations just get worse. Even Christians can't understand why they have these bondages...If the fathers would come clean there would be an amazing change in the lives of families. Just saying a prayer doesn't save you and make you a child of God.

In this instance my question still stands...where is the father?

CNW, I don't remember where the father is and I don't know the name of the documentary.

Can you please give me a verse in the Bible that says "very very few" who grow up in a non-Christian environment get to know Jesus?

Accepting Jesus as my savior (to me) means walking with Him daily - including repenting, confessing, reading my Bible, praying, etc.

I suppose I had the 'definition' incorrect and I should have been more specific, instead of misleading people to believe I meant a "single prayer".

Hello voice, welcome to the board. Let me see, where do I start??? How about with a question...do you know what fornication is? You may be new to Christianity and I have not read anything you have written yet, but I think this is a good question to ask you. It is not about legalism, but a commandment. s*x is not a sin in and of itself...but s*x outside of the marriage context is a definite sin. Jesus didn't come to take sin away when we are living in it...he came to take sin away we are repentant of.




CNW, I don't remember where the father is and I don't know the name of the documentary.

Can you please give me a verse in the Bible that says "very very few" who grow up in a non-Christian environment get to know Jesus?

Accepting Jesus as my savior (to me) means walking with Him daily - including repenting, confessing, reading my Bible, praying, etc.

I suppose I had the 'definition' incorrect and I should have been more specific, instead of misleading people to believe I meant a "single prayer".
Thanks, I didn't think the father was mentioned at all but that was my point.
a verse that says very very few. yup- well with one few...
Luke 13:22-24 (King James Version)



22And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Matthew 7:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Hello voice, welcome to the board. Let me see, where do I start??? How about with a question...do you know what fornication is? You may be new to Christianity and I have not read anything you have written yet, but I think this is a good question to ask you. It is not about legalism, but a commandment. s*x is not a sin in and of itself...but s*x outside of the marriage context is a definite sin. Jesus didn't come to take sin away when we are living in it...he came to take sin away we are repentant of.


Thanks, I didn't think the father was mentioned at all but that was my point.
a verse that says very very few. yup- well with one few...
Luke 13:22-24 (King James Version)



22And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Matthew 7:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Ok that's a great explanation, but can you give me a verse that says very few from non-Christian homes ever get to know Jesus?

I would like to read a verse that ties into the point you made about growing up in a non-Christian family.

"I just found it strange that a mom who is so absorbed in the Bible would end up with a daughter pregnant at 15."

Not all that strange at all. The baby our daughter had out of wedlock when she was 15 - is now 16.

She was raised in Church, and in a home where Bible reading is common also.

The Bible says to "train 'em up in the way they should go, and when they're OLD they won't depart from it".

It DOESN'T say what-all happens in between, or how many tears will flow getting there.

"I just found it strange that a mom who is so absorbed in the Bible would end up with a daughter pregnant at 15."

Not all that strange at all. The baby our daughter had out of wedlock when she was 15 - is now 16.

She was raised in Church, and in a home where Bible reading is common also.

The Bible says to "train 'em up in the way they should go, and when they're OLD they won't depart from it".

It DOESN'T say what-all happens in between, or how many tears will flow getting there.

I didn't create a post to criticize people who have children out of wedlock - there are no such things as so-called "accidents" in the eyes of God.

The Christian reality is that getting pregnant before marriage is a sin - just like murder, lying, dishonoring your parents or using the name of the Lord in vain.

My original post was to point out the lesson I learned from God.

And as I said before I acknowledge that everyone has free-will of their own.

As I have studied the Word I have not seen it written that God called sex a sin. Religion has made sex a sin. Religious Morality is not a Commandment from God. When Jesus forgave Mary Magdellene for her sin the 613 Mosaic Laws were still in effect. When Jesus hung on a tree those 613 Laws and Regulations were hung there to. Morality is a good thing but your Morality isn't the same as mine or maybe someone else's. Someone else's Morality can not dictate mine or anyone else's personal relationship with God. The religous Morality of Judaism was the downfall of Jesus Christ, Judaism couldn't see the forest for the trees. The same can be said today. A personal relationship with God is just that one and only, unique! When we start applying Religous Morality to point out a manmade identified sin then we have become no better than those who had Jesus put to death. When one associates sex outside of marriage a sin then they are openly admitting to being a prostitute according to Religous Morality. Fornication is not a Thou shalt not! I'm not making this up the Word of God doesn't tell us it is, only the word of man does.


Voice

Fornication is not a Thou shalt not! I'm not making this up the Word of God doesn't tell us it is, only the word of man does.The Bible definitely condemns fornication. While the Gentiles weren't required to keep the Mosaic Law they were forbidden to fornicate:

Acts 15:19-20

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.




In fact fornication is here singled out as a sin against one's own body:

1 Cor 6:18
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

God judged 23,000 Israelites for the SIN of fornication:

1 Cor 10:8

8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

It shouldn't even be NAMED among us:

Eph 5:3
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

To abstain from it is God's will:

1 Thess 4:3

3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication


In fact this sin is dealt with consistently all through out scripture.

As I have studied the Word I have not seen it written that God called sex a sin. Religion has made sex a sin. Religious Morality is not a Commandment from God. When Jesus forgave Mary Magdellene for her sin the 613 Mosaic Laws were still in effect. When Jesus hung on a tree those 613 Laws and Regulations were hung there to. Morality is a good thing but your Morality isn't the same as mine or maybe someone else's. Someone else's Morality can not dictate mine or anyone else's personal relationship with God. The religous Morality of Judaism was the downfall of Jesus Christ, Judaism couldn't see the forest for the trees. The same can be said today. A personal relationship with God is just that one and only, unique! When we start applying Religous Morality to point out a manmade identified sin then we have become no better than those who had Jesus put to death. When one associates sex outside of marriage a sin then they are openly admitting to being a prostitute according to Religous Morality. Fornication is not a Thou shalt not! I'm not making this up the Word of God doesn't tell us it is, only the word of man does.


Voice

So you are saying that when Jesus said "go and sin no more." He really meant, go and sin no more until I die, and then it won't count?

One of the problems with sex outside of marriage is that there is no commitment. Without commitment, sex may be fun, but it is taking rather than giving. It is not the loving marriage gift that God gave us. It becomes a selfish tool of our own desires that is so powerful that it can disquise itself as love. It can fool us and harden our hearts so that we have a hard time finding the person that we can love and give freely of our whole selves. Where two can become one flesh.

Quite frankly, it seems like you are looking for loop holes to justify sex (I know, because I have done that in the past). Take a look around you and see where that philosophy has gotten us. I hold that the divorce rate is a result of premarital sex. Not only because of cheating partners, but because of the hardened hearts that do not understand and can no longer experience total love. Love is not just a feeling. The marriage vows are not just words. We need supernatural help in starting and finishing a marriage. We need supernatural help in healing us to move ahead with the kind of marriages that God intended.

Does God love us when we sin? Yes. Would he like to show us a better way? Yes.

I am typing this in a kind and non-judgmental tone:

I would ask you a serious question. When you posted this, did you intend to free Christians so they can enjoy sex, or were you trying to justify your own behavior?

God Bless you and yours.

As I have studied the Word I have not seen it written that God called sex a sin. Religion has made sex a sin. Religious Morality is not a Commandment from God. When Jesus forgave Mary Magdellene for her sin the 613 Mosaic Laws were still in effect. When Jesus hung on a tree those 613 Laws and Regulations were hung there to. Morality is a good thing but your Morality isn't the same as mine or maybe someone else's. Someone else's Morality can not dictate mine or anyone else's personal relationship with God. The religous Morality of Judaism was the downfall of Jesus Christ, Judaism couldn't see the forest for the trees. The same can be said today. A personal relationship with God is just that one and only, unique! When we start applying Religous Morality to point out a manmade identified sin then we have become no better than those who had Jesus put to death. When one associates sex outside of marriage a sin then they are openly admitting to being a prostitute according to Religous Morality. Fornication is not a Thou shalt not! I'm not making this up the Word of God doesn't tell us it is, only the word of man does.


Voice
Hi Voice -

I think there are a couple of things here that may be getting mixed.

First, I would agree wholeheartedly with you that sex is not a sin. Sex is a wonderous thing and a gift to be enjoyed.

Fornication - what is your definition of fornication? Fornication isn't just sex, it's sex outside of a binding relationship. For most of us, that means marriage because we are also instructed to live by the laws of the land as much as possible.

I don't think sex is wrong in the least. I do think fornication is a sin and will have consequences.

Hope that helps explain a bit where I'm coming from.
V

Folks, I really appreciate all the input....

But as a reminder, the Maturing in Christ forum is a no-debate forum...and we've really strayed away from the OP.

So...let's get back to the original intent of this thread, which is not a question about fornication being sin.

I would invite anyone who wishes to explore the matter of legalism, grace, and God's laws written on the heart of a Christian to start a thread in Bible Chat where it may be fully explored.

Thank You.

I suspect many people internalize Christianity so much that they sit at home and pray or study scripture, but don’t really get out and perform the Great Commission. We are to be the light of the world. We are to be the salt of the earth. But, as my pastor says, we cannot do that if we’re in the shaker.;)

When Jesus talks about judgment, sometimes in parables, we normally see judgment using works as evidence of faith. We often see verses like "You know them by their fruit". I think the faith alone bit can be taken too far. I think Christians were meant to go out into the world (and into their own families), be active in the community, and do things with the truth God has given us.

Couple of related verses I knew of off hand. There are many more.

[NIV]
Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
Mat 5:15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
Mat 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

I agree, Revolvr. Our first and greatest mission field in all the world
should be to those nearest to us, in our little circle; our family, our friends, those we come in direct contact with! More so than ANYWHERE ELSE in the whole wide world.

Someone sent me an email today and they talked about how bad the earth must have gotten before Genesis chapter six...when God was actually sorry he had created mankind. He was ready to wipe EVERYONE off the face of the earth.

My friend said Noah could have said that he was only one person. There was not much he could do, since there was no one else who wanted to walk the path of righteousness with him. Sin must have been rampant all around him, everywhere he turned and looked. He could have said, "I give
up. What can ONE lone person do in the midst of such wickedness?"

But apparently Noah did not do that.

Genesis 6:
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Continuing down to verse 17...
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

My friend reminded me, "You see, Judy, NOAH WALKED WITH GOD. And in reality, Noah preserved mankind!"

How right she was! I went back and reread Genesis chapter six...and something else dawned on me. Friend, because Noah walked with God, and found grace in the eyes of the Lord, God saved not only Noah...but his family with him!

And in the long run...that is the only reason we are here today! Because of ONE man who walked with the Lord before his family, regardless of how everyone else lived!

...and that just blesses my socks off! :pp

Christian Lady-

I wanted to pm you to thank you for sharing what the Holy Spirit has taught you here but your pm is turned off so I left a msg on your profile page. Keep shining on, sister! I will look forward to hearing what else He teaches you!

"I just found it strange that a mom who is so absorbed in the Bible would end up with a daughter pregnant at 15."

Not all that strange at all. The baby our daughter had out of wedlock when she was 15 - is now 16.

She was raised in Church, and in a home where Bible reading is common also.

The Bible says to "train 'em up in the way they should go, and when they're OLD they won't depart from it".

It DOESN'T say what-all happens in between, or how many tears will flow getting there.
HALLELUJAH! AMEN! Couldn't agree more. :agree::amen::thumbsup:

I didn't create a post to criticize people who have children out of wedlock - there are no such things as so-called "accidents" in the eyes of God.

The Christian reality is that getting pregnant before marriage is a sin - just like murder, lying, dishonoring your parents or using the name of the Lord in vain.

My original post was to point out the lesson I learned from God.

And as I said before I acknowledge that everyone has free-will of their own.

just my :2cents:.....
I didn't take it that way. I understand what you were saying about being shocked that the mother was so into the actual bible but appeared to be less into it's practice. i think this is a great post! thank you for sharing it with us all! :yes:

It surprised me because to have a mom so absorbed in the Bible you would expect her to teach her daughter the ten commandments, including the commandment that stresses 'wait for sex until you are married'.

And as I said before, in my original post, I UNDERSTAND everyone has free-will, so my 'surprise' is not coming from her daughter's choice...

Perhaps she did teach her daughter the Right Path but perhaps she was too busy teaching herself the Bible that she didn't get around to it - that was the point of my original post.

I didn't create a post to criticize people who have children out of wedlock. I created a post because I sense God taught me "don't hide behind your Bible".

:cool:
I took the post as being judgmental also as you have read mine. Saul the Pharisee is almost exclusively the writer about fornication. One would be hard pressed to find fornication in the 4 Gospels.

The first place the word fornication is used in the Old Testament is found in II Chronicles 21:81. The word fornication found in this passage is from the Hebrew, No. 2181, Zanah, and is defined by Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible as follows: "to commit adultery (usually on the female, and less often of simple fornication, rarely of involuntary ravishment); fig. To commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of [Yahweh])…"

The Complete Word Study Old Testament suggests three possible meanings for the Hebrew word "zanah." The first being fornication (pre-marital, illicit sex), the second being adultery (marital, illicit sex), and the third being idolatry (worship of a person or thing besides Yahweh).

The second word denoting fornication in the English is found only once in the Hebrew, in Ezekiel 16:29. The word fornication in this passage is from the Hebrew, No. 8457, taznuth, and simply means a type of idolatry. Being that this word is only used once, the quest for an exact definition should not be too exhausting.

The third word signifying fornication is found in the Greek and is first used in Matthew 5:32. This word derives from the Greek word, No. 4202, porneia and is defined in the Strong’s as follows, "from 4203; harlotry (incl. Adultery and incest); fig. Idolatry: - fornication."

In the fifth chapter of 1 Corinthians Paul admonishes the Corinthian assembly to remove the sin that they were allowing in the assembly. One of the sins listed by the Apostle was a gentile committing "fornication" with his father’s wife. Now this is not what we consider fornication, but more accurately this signifies incest with his stepmother.

Trying to pinpoint this word without examining the passage in question is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Fornication in either the Hebrew or Greek can have and denote a wide range of definitions. It can mean literal fornication, adultery, harlotry, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, or any other sexual restriction that Yahweh has placed for mankind to observe.

Remember that after the Great Flood there were only 8 people that started the repopulation of the earth no where is it written that in Noah's day sex outside of marriage was a sin. There had to be sex outside of marriage in order to do God's will.


Voice

I took the post as being judgmental also as you have read mine. Saul the Pharisee is almost exclusively the writer about fornication. One would be hard pressed to find fornication in the 4 Gospels.

The first place the word fornication is used in the Old Testament is found in II Chronicles 21:81. The word fornication found in this passage is from the Hebrew, No. 2181, Zanah, and is defined by Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible as follows: "to commit adultery (usually on the female, and less often of simple fornication, rarely of involuntary ravishment); fig. To commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of [Yahweh])…"

The Complete Word Study Old Testament suggests three possible meanings for the Hebrew word "zanah." The first being fornication (pre-marital, illicit sex), the second being adultery (marital, illicit sex), and the third being idolatry (worship of a person or thing besides Yahweh).

The second word denoting fornication in the English is found only once in the Hebrew, in Ezekiel 16:29. The word fornication in this passage is from the Hebrew, No. 8457, taznuth, and simply means a type of idolatry. Being that this word is only used once, the quest for an exact definition should not be too exhausting.

The third word signifying fornication is found in the Greek and is first used in Matthew 5:32. This word derives from the Greek word, No. 4202, porneia and is defined in the Strong’s as follows, "from 4203; harlotry (incl. Adultery and incest); fig. Idolatry: - fornication."

In the fifth chapter of 1 Corinthians Paul admonishes the Corinthian assembly to remove the sin that they were allowing in the assembly. One of the sins listed by the Apostle was a gentile committing "fornication" with his father’s wife. Now this is not what we consider fornication, but more accurately this signifies incest with his stepmother.

Trying to pinpoint this word without examining the passage in question is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Fornication in either the Hebrew or Greek can have and denote a wide range of definitions. It can mean literal fornication, adultery, harlotry, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, or any other sexual restriction that Yahweh has placed for mankind to observe.

Remember that after the Great Flood there were only 8 people that started the repopulation of the earth no where is it written that in Noah's day sex outside of marriage was a sin. There had to be sex outside of marriage in order to do God's will.


Voice

I don't understand your post voice.
Are you suggesting sex outside of marriage is not a sin? If that's the case, the moditator has suggested you create a new thread.

CL

We are spritually perfect but still have to live with sinful flesh. Bless you.

I don't understand your post voice.
Are you suggesting sex outside of marriage is not a sin? If that's the case, the moditator has suggested you create a new thread.

CL
Actually I am merely pointing out that not all Christians are Pharisees ("separate ones"). They so esteemed the "letter" of the law of Moses (more so than the "spirit" of the law), and so esteemed the oral traditions that were said to have sprung from the law, that they developed strict applications of the law for everyday life. The most famous Pharisee in all the Bible - although few people realize that that's what he once had been - is the Apostle Paul (Phil. 3:5).

The reason Jesus compared a Pharisee with a tax collector was because there couldn't have been two greater opposites than a Pharisee and a tax collector. A Pharisee was an esteemed and respected student and defender of the law; and was considered to be a careful seeker of righteousness through the law. A tax collector, however, was considered a reject of the law - the most despised person in the community; a greedy sinner who had become a traitor to his own people, and who collected money from his fellow Jews to give to Roman Gentile oppressors. Jesus used these two persons in His story to show that it's the humble, repentant sinner who confesses his or her sin that God justifies - rather than the proud, strictly religious, self-righteous man or woman who boasts in good works.


The Bible generally presents the Pharisees, as proud and in debate with the Savior. They are symbolic of religious pride and arrogance in the New Testament.

We are not to add tradition or oral conjecture to what God has put forth, nor are we to teach others to fall into Satan's trap. I do believe the Bible tells us that the ones considered the greatest( Sanctimonious) here on earth will be the least in Heaven.


Voice

Actually I am merely pointing out that not all Christians are Pharisees ("separate ones"). They so esteemed the "letter" of the law of Moses (more so than the "spirit" of the law), and so esteemed the oral traditions that were said to have sprung from the law, that they developed strict applications of the law for everyday life. The most famous Pharisee in all the Bible - although few people realize that that's what he once had been - is the Apostle Paul (Phil. 3:5).

The reason Jesus compared a Pharisee with a tax collector was because there couldn't have been two greater opposites than a Pharisee and a tax collector. A Pharisee was an esteemed and respected student and defender of the law; and was considered to be a careful seeker of righteousness through the law. A tax collector, however, was considered a reject of the law - the most despised person in the community; a greedy sinner who had become a traitor to his own people, and who collected money from his fellow Jews to give to Roman Gentile oppressors. Jesus used these two persons in His story to show that it's the humble, repentant sinner who confesses his or her sin that God justifies - rather than the proud, strictly religious, self-righteous man or woman who boasts in good works.


The Bible generally presents the Pharisees, as proud and in debate with the Savior. They are symbolic of religious pride and arrogance in the New Testament.

We are not to add tradition or oral conjecture to what God has put forth, nor are we to teach others to fall into Satan's trap. I do believe the Bible tells us that the ones considered the greatest( Sanctimonious) here on earth will be the least in Heaven.


Voice
Under "The Law", Fornication was NOT normally punishable by death.

A woman would be put to death for Fornication ONLY if it was consensual AND she was betrothed to another man. This would be such a rare and exceptional case, that it was not included in the 10 commandments but was left as a judicial issue in light of the facts - Deut chapter 22. Normally, in the case of Fornication, the man must pay "Cash" (the Bride-Price) to the woman's father and "Marry" her if her father permitted . . .

Exodus 22:16-17
16 "If a man ENTICES a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall surely PAY the bride-price for
her to be his wife.
17 If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall PAY MONEY according to the bride-price of virgins.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 "If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and
they are found out,
29 then the man who lay with her shall give (PAY) to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she
shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.

Adultery under Mosaic Law required the death penalty, while Fornication did not normally require the Death penalty. Therefore, :

Commit Physical Fornication => Cash Penalty Payment (No Death)

The basis for determining the penalty for committing Fornication or Adultery was determined from the Old Testament for sexual immoral acts of the Flesh. Therefore, it was revealed that the penalty was - - -

In the Flesh - - -

Adultery (Married) => Death Penalty
Fornication (Unmarried) => NO Death Penalty (but, Must pay Bride Price)

We can assume at this point that there will be a parallel penalty relationship when applied to the spiritual realm. Our basis for determining the penalty for committing Spiritual Fornication or Spiritual Adultery will be determined from the New Testament for unbelievers. Therefore, it will be revealed that the penalty will be - - -

In the Spirit - - -

Spiritual Adultery (Unbelievers) => ETERNAL Death
Spiritual Fornication (Believer) => EVERLASTING LIFE (but, Must pay penalty)

Although the Spiritual Fornicator has the security of everlasting life, there will be a penalty or price to pay for committing this sin.
John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does NOT BELIEVE is CONDEMNED already, because he has NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36
"He who BELIEVES in the Son has EVERLASTING LIFE; and he who does NOT BELIEVE the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


Voice

"I just found it strange that a mom who is so absorbed in the Bible would end up with a daughter pregnant at 15."

Not all that strange at all. The baby our daughter had out of wedlock when she was 15 - is now 16.

She was raised in Church, and in a home where Bible reading is common also.

The Bible says to "train 'em up in the way they should go, and when they're OLD they won't depart from it".

It DOESN'T say what-all happens in between, or how many tears will flow getting there.

Thank you. I am like your daughter. My son is now 10 almost 11 years old and after my divorce last year I ran away from the cross due to alot of anger and devastation and now I am in Feb 2009 going to have my 2nd child out of wedlock. I was raised in the church actually was raised both catholic and protestant and was very sheltered and rebelled from my parents as soon as I was old enough and then ended up pregnant with my son. It wasnt about my parents it was about my choices, my wrong choices but I would never trade my choice for anything else I love my son just like I love this baby I am carrying now. Yes I will be single mom to 3 kids and life isnt going to be easy, but I have the Lord in my corner. Everyone makes mistakes in life you just have to be willing to come back to the Lord and admit to Him to let Him be our guide.