I believe Jesus did not walk on water for this simple reason: he never did it in the open, in the daylight!
Besides, the cry “It is a ghost!” is enough evidence of the superstitious level of the disciples.

I believe Jesus did not walk on water for this simple reason: he never did it in the open, in the daylight!
Besides, the cry “It is a ghost!” is enough evidence of the superstitious level of the disciples.

How did peter walk on water then? then began to sink? and Jesus saved him?

And the reason they said its a ghost was because, when was the last time you saw someone walking on water in the middle of the sea?

How did peter walk on water then? then began to sink? and Jesus saved him?

And the reason they said its a ghost was because, when was the last time you saw someone walking on water in the middle of the sea?

I find that explanation very, very shallow.
Unintelligent, in fact.
To be a real miracle it would have to be done in the daylight.
Besides, the seven miracles in John are all discreditable.
They came around only 60 years after they were supposed to have happened.
In other words, Jesus’ walking on water is another fable and folklore
collected over that long period from storytellers.

I find that explanation very, very shallow.
Unintelligent, in fact.
To be a real miracle it would have to be done in the daylight.
Besides, the seven miracles in John are all discreditable.
They came around only 60 years after they were supposed to have happened.
In other words, Jesus’ walking on water is another fable and folklore
collected over that long period from storytellers.

That's an interesting hypothesis...

Would you care to present some evidence (other than opinion and pre-supposition) refuting this and other miracles...most that were done in the daylight...and in front of hundreds of people? (e.g. Giving sight to the blind, healing the lame, raising the dead, feeding the multitude, being seen by over 500 witnesses alive again after His resurrection, et.al.)...

So Jesus walking on water is discredited because he didn't do it in the daytime. What now are you going to claim discredits the miracles He did perform in the daytime?

Those miracles didn't all happen at night.

So Jesus walking on water is discredited because he didn't do it in the daytime. What now are you going to claim discredits the miracles He did perform in the daytime?

Those miracles didn't all happen at night.
Well, John contradicts the other gospels. Take what he calls the first miracle and compare with the other three gospels. Besides, because you beleive some old writing as genuine doesnt mean all have to do it!

Julio,

Before we go any further, I want you to read the rules of the Christian Answer forum here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=138023).

After you've read them, I want to ask you: Are you here seeking to have questions about our faith answered...or are you here with the intent to debate, rebut, refute, etc. Christianity?

I'm asking in an official capacity here, so please read the rules and answer the question before you post again, OK? :)

I believe Jesus did not walk on water for this simple reason: he never did it in the open, in the daylight!
Besides, the cry “It is a ghost!” is enough evidence of the superstitious level of the disciples.

How many people today would cry, "it's a ghost!" if they saw some thing or some one walking on water? A lot of people! Now how many people would cry out to that person, recognizing them, asking to walk on water themselves? Not a whole lot. I'm going to be "absurd" here (but probably only by your definition) and make the assertion that those who lived in antiquity... Weren't so extraordinarily superstitious as you would have us think.

In regards to why you don't believe Jesus walked on water, really? Because it didn't happen in the daylight? That's not exactly a valid reason for discrediting an event. I mean, you can tell us you didn't believe it happened for that reason, but you cannot take the next step and tell us that this is proof enough that in fact it did not happen. It would not be valid proof.

I believe Jesus did not walk on water for this simple reason: he never did it in the open, in the daylight!
Besides, the cry “It is a ghost!” is enough evidence of the superstitious level of the disciples.

Hi Julio,

I love your question... I'm not so crazy about your conclusion. You are on the outside looking in, so it's hard for you to see what is truth and what is wonderful about your question.

Even if you became a Christian today and started on your journey toward God, you might walk a long distance before you found the answer. Jesus did many things in secret, things that only the disciples saw Him do. When He did miracles in public, it put Him in great danger from those who hated Him. So it was necessary to show His true self only to the disciples.

He still does the same, today. If you want to really know Jesus, to really know God, you will never gain that from a distance, You must seek Him with your whole being - mind, heart, soul, spirit, body.

His mysteries are accessible, but only to those who do not give up in the quest to know Him. The world is still filled with people who gnash their teeth at Him.

How many people today would cry, "it's a ghost!" if they saw some thing or some one walking on water? A lot of people! Now how many people would cry out to that person, recognizing them, asking to walk on water themselves? Not a whole lot. I'm going to be "absurd" here (but probably only by your definition) and make the assertion that those who lived in antiquity... Weren't so extraordinarily superstitious as you would have us think.

In regards to why you don't believe Jesus walked on water, really? Because it didn't happen in the daylight? That's not exactly a valid reason for discrediting an event. I mean, you can tell us you didn't believe it happened for that reason, but you cannot take the next step and tell us that this is proof enough that in fact it did not happen. It would not be valid proof.

You mean Jesus did the miracle in the context it is?!! Don’t make me laugh, really! He had been praying all night long and forgot to pray for his disciples in danger! No, thanks. No christ like that in my life!

Hi Julio,

I love your question... I'm not so crazy about your conclusion. You are on the outside looking in, so it's hard for you to see what is truth and what is wonderful about your question.

Even if you became a Christian today and started on your journey toward God, you might walk a long distance before you found the answer. Jesus did many things in secret, things that only the disciples saw Him do. When He did miracles in public, it put Him in great danger from those who hated Him. So it was necessary to show His true self only to the disciples.

He still does the same, today. If you want to really know Jesus, to really know God, you will never gain that from a distance, You must seek Him with your whole being - mind, heart, soul, spirit, body.

His mysteries are accessible, but only to those who do not give up in the quest to know Him. The world is still filled with people who gnash their teeth at Him.
Well, thanks for a lesson on hogwash!

julio,

All you've done is come here to tell us we're wrong in our belief that Christ is capable of performing a miracle. Aside from the fact that this is against the forum rules you agreed to when you created an account, it's just plain low to do.

Second, explain how Jesus walking on water at night is somehow proof that He didn't do it? This is simply fallacious "disproof"; it's just plain bad logic.

julio,

All you've done is come here to tell us we're wrong in our belief that Christ is capable of performing a miracle. Aside from the fact that this is against the forum rules you agreed to when you created an account, it's just plain low to do.

Second, explain how Jesus walking on water at night is somehow proof that He didn't do it? This is simply fallacious "disproof"; it's just plain bad logic.

Well, it’s plain bad logic to believe in blind writers! John told you the story 60 years later when his church was full of antichrists and with MANY heretics, who didn’t believe in what he used to say about Jesus! Nobody else told anybody else such a childish fable! Understand with your brain, not with the brain of somebody else.

No, thanks. No christ like that in my life!Hello julio.

You present a very good point in the above. We often want to make Christ how we would receive Him. Pride prevents us from wanting and receiving the kind of Christ that Jesus Christ really is.

But nevertheless, you are here, so you might as well know that you should "not look for another". In other words, if this Christ doesn't do it for you then don't be looking for another. I think you probably already know this though and that is why you are here. You are contemplating "this Christ" yet again as you have doubtless done many many times already.

What you need to hear is that the problem doesn't reside with Jesus Christ, the problem resides with you. Do you want a Christ like Jesus Christ in your life? The question really is do you NEED a Christ like Jesus Christ in your life.

God Bless!

I believe Jesus did not walk on water for this simple reason: he never did it in the open, in the daylight!
Besides, the cry “It is a ghost!” is enough evidence of the superstitious level of the disciples.
So, do you say that miracles performed during the day are true, but those performed at night are not? I doubt that is your point. You want to tell us the Bible is foolishness. It is myth, fairy tales. Lies.

But we already know this is what you believe. None of it makes sense to you. It cannot. The Bible is a book for insiders.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

So why do you come here? What are you looking for?

Perhaps one day it will dawn on you that your life is meaningless, void, empty, a very real and inevitable dead end. There is no reason or purpose for you to exist. Nothing you strive to accumulate can be taken with you. You are dying even now. Evey morning you take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.

Then might be the time to ask about Jesus’ resurrection.

Hello julio.

You present a very good point in the above. We often want to make Christ how we would receive Him. Pride prevents us from wanting and receiving the kind of Christ that Jesus Christ really is.

But nevertheless, you are here, so you might as well know that you should "not look for another". In other words, if this Christ doesn't do it for you then don't be looking for another. I think you probably already know this though and that is why you are here. You are contemplating "this Christ" yet again as you have doubtless done many many times already.

What you need to hear is that the problem doesn't reside with Jesus Christ, the problem resides with you. Do you want a Christ like Jesus Christ in your life? The question really is do you NEED a Christ like Jesus Christ in your life.

God Bless!
That miracle is too childish to be true! It is propaganda. Jesus prayed for 6 hours and that wasn’t enough to grant the disciples a safe trip! Preposterous!

I believe Jesus did not walk on water for this simple reason: he never did it in the open, in the daylight!
Besides, the cry “It is a ghost!” is enough evidence of the superstitious level of the disciples.

Do you mean to say that anything that happens after sunset didn't really happen? Come again.

So, do you say that miracles performed during the day are true, but those performed at night are not? I doubt that is your point. You want to tell us the Bible is foolishness. It is myth, fairy tales. Lies.

But we already know this is what you believe. None of it makes sense to you. It cannot. The Bible is a book for insiders.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

So why do you come here? What are you looking for?

Perhaps one day it will dawn on you that your life is meaningless, void, empty, a very real and inevitable dead end. There is no reason or purpose for you to exist. Nothing you strive to accumulate can be taken with you. You are dying even now. Evey morning you take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.

Then might be the time to ask about Jesus’ resurrection.

Well, help me to believe in Christ [as Billy Graham used to shout] but not in nonsensical and utterly ridiculous propaganda miracles. Do I need to believe in the seven miracles in John?!… Do I, really?!…

Do you mean to say that anything that happens after sunset didn't really happen? Come again.

Did I say that?!…
Read the context of that “walk” carefully and find the gaps in the fable. The boat was still by the shore!!

That miracle is too childish to be true! It is propaganda. Jesus prayed for 6 hours and that wasn’t enough to grant the disciples a safe trip! Preposterous! :wave: Hello again julio.

:hmm: Are you sure you were responding to my post? :dunno:

So your belief hinges on this particular miracle? You reject the miracle out of hand, and thus Jesus. On what basis are you considering Jesus?

Regarding the miracle, why couldn't it have happened? If Jesus was who He claimed to be, could Jesus have walked on water? Of course He could have. We can have doubt, but doubt isn't proof.

God Bless!

:hmm: Also, if it is all made up anyway, why didn't they make it up to have happened in the daytime to satisfy doubters liky you? :D

God Bless!

Well, help me to believe in Christ [as Billy Graham used to shout] but not in nonsensical and utterly ridiculous propaganda miracles. Do I need to believe in the seven miracles in John?!… Do I, really?!…

The miracle of Jesus' resurrection - the meaning behind His death on the cross, is the only miracle of consequence. The rest will sort itself out once you have come to terms with this.

So, are you here to mock our faith, or do you really want to understand if this is possible?

:wave: Hello again julio.

:hmm: Are you sure you were responding to my post? :dunno:

So your belief hinges on this particular miracle? You reject the miracle out of hand, and thus Jesus. On what basis are you considering Jesus?

Regarding the miracle, why couldn't it have happened? If Jesus was who He claimed to be, could Jesus have walked on water? Of course He could have. We can have doubt, but doubt isn't proof.

God Bless!

Naivety, that is. Read the fable carefully and see that the boat was near the coast. It was dark. Nobody could see anybody “walking” on water! Peter came down the boat and encountered a deep in the shallow shore, that’s all. Jesus didn’t do any miracle at that time of the high night. John told the fable 60 years later! No other gospel remembers such a “miracle”!! Please, be logic and consistent with yourself. Do I need to believe in miracles to believe in Jesus?!…

The miracle of Jesus' resurrection - the meaning behind His death on the cross, is the only miracle of consequence. The rest will sort itself out once you have come to terms with this.

So, are you here to mock our faith, or do you really want to understand if this is possible?

Well, who is “we”? With the threatening and aggression I immediately encounter here who wants to be evangelised that way? I’m a pragmatic believer: the more I’m threatened the less I believe. As simple as that.

Naivety, that is. Read the fable carefully and see that the boat was near the coast. It was dark. Nobody could see anybody “walking” on water! Peter came down the boat and encountered a deep in the shallow shore, that’s all. Jesus didn’t do any miracle at that time of the high night. John told the fable 60 years later! No other gospel remembers such a “miracle”!! Please, be logic and consistent with yourself. Do I need to believe in miracles to believe in Jesus?!… Everything in your reply suggests that you believe it happened but that the events can be logically explained and that the Gospel writer embellished the event.

So how much regarding Jesus Christ do you currently believe? Who is Jesus Christ to julio?

God Bless!

Everything in your reply suggests that you believe it happened but that the events can be logically explained and that the Gospel writer embellished the event.

So how much regarding Jesus Christ do you currently believe? Who is Jesus Christ to julio?

God Bless!
OK, I’ll answer tomorrow. I live in Johannesburg, and it’s 20 past nine in the evening. I’m tired and need to go sleep. Goodnight to all.

Well, who is “we”? With the threatening and aggression I immediately encounter here who wants to be evangelised that way? I’m a pragmatic believer: the more I’m threatened the less I believe. As simple as that.

You have set up an adversarial situation here. You mock the bible, calling it nonsense, propaganda, illogical, superstition. People will defend their faith, but I see no one threatening you or being aggressive. So my question still stands. Are you here to mock our faith, or do you really want to understand if the resurrection is possible?

OK, I’ll answer tomorrow. I live in Johannesburg, and it’s 20 past nine in the evening. I’m tired and need to go sleep. Goodnight to all.Fair enough. We look forward to you answer.

God Bless!

Did I say that?!…
Read the context of that “walk” carefully and find the gaps in the fable. The boat was still by the shore!!


Yes, you did.


I believe Jesus did not walk on water for this simple reason: he never did it in the open, in the daylight!

You appear to be saying,

a. We know that nothing real happens in the dark
b. Jesus is supposed to have walked on water at night.
c. Therefore, Jesus didn't walk on water.

That's how your statement reads to me.

If I understand you correctly...these are the reasons you don't think Jesus walked on water:

1. He didn't do it in the daylight! (therefore not confirm-able)
2. The disciples believed in ghosts! (therefore aren't reliable)
3. John wrote 60 years later (therefore not a good source)
4. The miracle stories contradict (therefore not reliable)
5. Christians base their beliefs on old writings (old isn't reliable)
6. Jesus prayer would have protecte them from the storm (therefore Christ is unworthy)
7. It's a childish story (not worth believing in)
8. The boat was still by the shore! (therefore not a miracle)
9. The other gospel writers didn't even remember it (therefore not historical)
10. Christians aren't nice (so I won't believe)

First off, I'd say that someone who switchs from one argument to the next without really discussing any of them is more interested in maintaining his position than in actually finding truth. Secondly, for someone who believes apparent contradictions disprove something, there's an awful lot of contradiction in these 10 points (many of them militate against each other). Thirdly, none of them are very good arguments.

#1 is ridiculous, of course. Many of the miracles were done in the day-time with large crowds around Jesus. Whether it was daylight or night-time large crowds wouldn't have seen a miracle out in the sea.

#2 is largely incorrect. The poster is trying to say the disciples were unreasonable people b/c they speculated that a man walking on water was a ghost. I'd say that is a pretty fair hypothesis considering the evidence. They'd never seen a person walking on water before. I'm sure the poster would be freaked out if he saw such a thing too. All the evidence militates against the idea that the disciples were overly superstitious. Thomas, for instance, refused to believe multiple eye-witness accounts until he saw the resurrected Jesus for himself.

#3 shows a poor understanding of how we got the Gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke & John are written records of oral eye-witness testimony. The dating of the Gospels is an argument AGAIST the stories being legendary in nature. Records of Jesus existed in oral form, of course, from the time of his ministry onward. They existed in written form while hundreds and thousands of people were still alive to verify or dispute the claims.

#4 was an assertion with defense. Julio says they contradict, but gives no mention of what apparent contradictions he's talking about. I've studied Matthew, Mark & John's account of this and see no reasonable claims for contradiction. I'd be glad to hear what the poster considers contradictory.

#5 is funny. John wrote more recently, so he's not believable... The Bible is old, so it's not worth believing in. That seems like a contradiction to me! In reality, accounts aren't more or less believable based on age, but on the quality of the evidence.

#6 misses the point of the miracle account all-together! You seems to think that Jesus would have prayed AGAINST the storm. In reality, Jesus often prays for our faith THROUGH the storm.

#7 is not a logical argument. We're dealing with eye-witness accounts and the science of doing history. Just b/c you have an anti-supernatural bias to begin with doesn't mean everyone else has to play by those rules. Making people play by your own rules is, indeed, the childish thing to do. Christians are simply open minded enough to let the evidence point them to the truth.

#8 is flat out incorrect. Matthew records that they were 'a considerable distance from land' (24). Mark says they were in the 'middle of the lake' (47). John says they 'had rowed three or three and a half miles' (19). Not only are these 3 accounts consistent with each other and with geography, they disprove the suggestion that this occured on the shore.

#9 is a confusing point. What do you mean here? Matthew and Mark recorded the event.

#10 is a bad argument. Even if Christians here were being rude that wouldn't disprove the miracle recorded in Matthew, Mark & John. The two have little to nothing to do with each other. Just b/c you are being aggressive in your distaste for Christianity doesn't mean atheism is untrue either. That's not how we make arguments.

I suggest that after you get some sleep, you come back and make a detailed case for 1 or 2 of your points. I'm sure many here would love to have a 'reasonable' dialogue about such points. But this whole idea of flying from one point to another without making any logical and solid arguments won't accomplish much. If you are truly an open minded person and willing to consider the events and talk through the issues in an adult manner, I'm sure you'll enjoy many years on this site.

I hope you have a good sleep and come back strong!
~matthew

Did I say that?!…
Read the context of that “walk” carefully and find the gaps in the fable. The boat was still by the shore!!
In both John and Matthew it says the boat was out at sea.

Matthew 14:
24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.

25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.

28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.


John 6:
19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.

20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.

21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.



What is interesting is that you didn't see the other miracles in these verses. Can you spot them?

Pending discussion with the OP this thread is locked.