Today I was chatting with a guy at a coffee shop. I've chatted with this guy before but never about God.

Somehow the topic of God came up and, through a long series of probing questions on my part, I was able to find out what he believes.

He believes that God is just the sum of all existence (nothing new). He believes that people are actually spirits inhabiting one body after another from one life after another (like reincarnation). He believes that behind our lives here on earth, there are great spirits who are actually playing war games and we are just the players in the games.

This all came from me asking him if he believed in right and wrong ( I usually use this topic to lead people to the realization of their need for a Savior). He does not believe in right and wrong because that is only a concept of the game and not of the higher reality of the spirits playing the game.

Basically, he believes that, since everything happening here is really just a part of the great war game, we are all unknowing characters of the game. When someone sins against another in some way, the two characters are in agreement on the issue because they are really just two spirits agreeing to play the game. Therefore, he doesn't believe that murder, rape, lying, stealing, etc. are really evil or "wrong" because it's not real to begin with.

Rather, he actually believes that both the person doing the wrong and the person who is wronged are both desiring to do what is being done. They are unaware that this is taking place because they are in the game.

My summary of his delusion was this ( and I told him this): he knows there is right and wrong. He is using his make-believe story to numb his conscience to the guilt he feels for all the wrongs he has done. I told him that, if he is wrong, and truly must be held accountable for all the wrong he has done by God, he is in big trouble. He merely smiled and said, "Perhaps."

So, has anyone ever heard of this fantasy belief before? How would you witness to this guy?

Today I was chatting with a guy at a coffee shop. I've chatted with this guy before but never about God.

Somehow the topic of God came up and, through a long series of probing questions on my part, I was able to find out what he believes.

He believes that God is just the sum of all existence (nothing new). He believes that people are actually spirits inhabiting one body after another from one life after another (like reincarnation). He believes that behind our lives here on earth, there are great spirits who are actually playing war games and we are just the players in the games.

This all came from me asking him if he believed in right and wrong ( I usually use this topic to lead people to the realization of their need for a Savior). He does not believe in right and wrong because that is only a concept of the game and not of the higher reality of the spirits playing the game.

Basically, he believes that, since everything happening here is really just a part of the great war game, we are all unknowing characters of the game. When someone sins against another in some way, the two characters are in agreement on the issue because they are really just two spirits agreeing to play the game. Therefore, he doesn't believe that murder, rape, lying, stealing, etc. are really evil or "wrong" because it's not real to begin with.

Rather, he actually believes that both the person doing the wrong and the person who is wronged are both desiring to do what is being done. They are unaware that this is taking place because they are in the game.

My summary of his delusion was this ( and I told him this): he knows there is right and wrong. He is using his make-believe story to numb his conscience to the guilt he feels for all the wrongs he has done. I told him that, if he is wrong, and truly must be held accountable for all the wrong he has done by God, he is in big trouble. He merely smiled and said, "Perhaps."

So, has anyone ever heard of this fantasy belief before? How would you witness to this guy?


I have heard something similar to this, but not since I stopped reading Conan the Barbarian comic books.

I used to read Conan in my teens. I never heard it quite this way before.

This man is easily in his 50's. I wondered if he was into Scientology, but he has a bit different bent on it. Or, perhaps he's into Scientology, hasn't been totally "cleared", and is already imagining what must be reality.

A guy I worked with years ago had a unique belief about God. He thought God was an alien from another planet who discovered Earth and then started messing with people.

Weirdest one I've heard was that the RCC is within its authority to imprison and/or torture any within its church in order to "protect their eternal souls from themselves". Additionally, they held the view that protestants were included as "within its church" as they were essentially rebellious Catholics.

Not saying thats official RCC doctrine, but its definitely one of the strangest things I've heard someone defend.

To the OP: yes, I've heard of this philosophy before. It's very heavily a new-age one. Depending on who you talk to in the new age movement (which SEEMS to have really been the craze in the 70s, 80s and mid 90s... not sure if it has as much momentum now) you can hear variations on this theme. The idea that we are in fact spirits who are part of some intricate game and that we agree to harm one another or help one another because of the lessons we'll learn is generally found in the philosophy of people like Richard Bach. For reference, he wrote "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" as well as "Illusions" and several other books. His argument is more or less the above.

I personally read his stuff for the first time about 10 years ago. Like most new age writers and thinkers, he doesn't (or at least didn't at the time) believe in right and wrong as concrete ideas -- there is VERY little black and white in the new age philosophy. There are varying shades of 'grey', and there is a lot of talk about the 'lessons' and 'truths' we learn. The whole system is wrapped up in warm, fuzzy talk about everyone being fellow adventurers in this game of life, as it were. It appeals to far too many people.... and young people in particular buy into it, mostly because the new age philosophy encourages independent thought. Of course, PLEASE understand that "new age" is a HUGE umbrella term, and the shoe will not fit all here. I don't intend it to. I'm referring specifically to those in the movement who adhere to similar things.

I don't know about this man's other views, but I hope that the above may be of some help. I'd say two things. First, he needs prayer. Secondly, he likely views Jesus as a good person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and was killed for it. When talking to new age people, rather than coming at it from a morality angle (ie, He died for our sins, right and wrong exists, etc) I've found it effective to discuss Christianity from a historical perspective. What adds up? What prophecies were there, and how were they fulfilled? What evidence do we have for the resurrection? Etc. I GENERALLY start out by asking what the term "God" means to someone. There are usually varying definitions, and most of them are of impersonal life-force type ideas. We can go from there, once we know what the idea of God is to someone.

God bless as you continue to talk with your coffee shop friend. :) (Coffee shops truly are the BEST places for such talks. Libraries would be, but everyone tends to shush you there!)

The philosophy of what is good in life?

To crush your enemies.
To see them driven before you.
And to hear the lamentations of der women.

:rofl:







Apologies for the threadjack. If you don't get it, then please just move on. :blush: Nothing to see here.

The philosophy of what is good in life?

To crush your enemies.
To see them driven before you.
And to hear the lamentations of der women.

:rofl:

That was only between the times when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius. When Conan the Cimmerian was destined to wear the jeweled crown of Acquilonia upon a troubled brow.

The philosophy of what is good in life?

To crush your enemies.
To see them driven before you.
And to hear the lamentations of der women.

:rofl:







Apologies for the threadjack. If you don't get it, then please just move on. :blush: Nothing to see here.
Ha ha...thanks, Arnold. :)

To the OP: yes, I've heard of this philosophy before. It's very heavily a new-age one. Depending on who you talk to in the new age movement (which SEEMS to have really been the craze in the 70s, 80s and mid 90s... not sure if it has as much momentum now) you can hear variations on this theme. The idea that we are in fact spirits who are part of some intricate game and that we agree to harm one another or help one another because of the lessons we'll learn is generally found in the philosophy of people like Richard Bach. For reference, he wrote "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" as well as "Illusions" and several other books. His argument is more or less the above.

I personally read his stuff for the first time about 10 years ago. Like most new age writers and thinkers, he doesn't (or at least didn't at the time) believe in right and wrong as concrete ideas -- there is VERY little black and white in the new age philosophy. There are varying shades of 'grey', and there is a lot of talk about the 'lessons' and 'truths' we learn. The whole system is wrapped up in warm, fuzzy talk about everyone being fellow adventurers in this game of life, as it were. It appeals to far too many people.... and young people in particular buy into it, mostly because the new age philosophy encourages independent thought. Of course, PLEASE understand that "new age" is a HUGE umbrella term, and the shoe will not fit all here. I don't intend it to. I'm referring specifically to those in the movement who adhere to similar things.

I don't know about this man's other views, but I hope that the above may be of some help. I'd say two things. First, he needs prayer. Secondly, he likely views Jesus as a good person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and was killed for it. When talking to new age people, rather than coming at it from a morality angle (ie, He died for our sins, right and wrong exists, etc) I've found it effective to discuss Christianity from a historical perspective. What adds up? What prophecies were there, and how were they fulfilled? What evidence do we have for the resurrection? Etc. I GENERALLY start out by asking what the term "God" means to someone. There are usually varying definitions, and most of them are of impersonal life-force type ideas. We can go from there, once we know what the idea of God is to someone.

God bless as you continue to talk with your coffee shop friend. :) (Coffee shops truly are the BEST places for such talks. Libraries would be, but everyone tends to shush you there!)
Thanks for your input!

I did ask him what he believed about God, and that led into his whole belief system. This man told me that he believed that Jesus was a man with higher knowledge (of the game, I presume), and that He allowed Himself to be killed for some bizarre reason I cannot now remember. He believed that the Bible had been rewritten many times. He kept insisting that Jesus said, "What I am ye shall be and greater." Of course, I told him that what Jesus said was, "The works I do ye shall do and greater..." He was doubtful. He believed that the Old Testament was about three different Gods warring against each other.

Every time I asked him about how he would feel if someone did such and such (something terribly wrong) to him, he became silent and pensive. He knew deep down that there was such a thing as wrong, but he just couldn't bring himself to admit it.

I will pray for him. I see him often, and I'm glad God provided this opportunity to know him better. :)

I'll be praying for him, too. We all need Christ, not bizarre fantasy. This world's crazy enough without the warring gods and celestial games. ;)

A lot of people are expecting some kind of huge battle at the end of the world between good and evil. Before I started reading the Bible, I thought this was true also. I didn't realize the battle was already won by Jesus at the cross and that the Armaggedon battle would be ended by a single word from Jesus. I was raised as a Catholic too. I was unaware of the second coming of Jesus as well.

from witnessing to people over many years, i have found that it is not at all unusual for intelligent persons to invent their own theology and cosmology and eschatology. the new age movement, star trek and star wars, 2001: a space odyessy, comic books, popular novels, television shows, etc etc are all really useful tools for building your own religion. with no knowledge of God's Truth, one might as well worship the force or crom as to believe the Bible. the world of popular entertainment works endlessly to build and promote falsehoods and people drink them up like water.

last night, my teenagers were watching the new episode of "scrubs". there was a character who was dying and afraid. the young doctors wanted to comfort him and all they could come up with "Let your last thought be a good thought." Somewhere, someone is inventing their own religion out of that today.

Both individual parts and even the whole picture sound familiar, from my reading before coming to faith. It does make me smile when individuals think they have a unique idea of faith - but 'there's nothing new under the sun.'

I'd start by saying - does his belief make him happy? Does it make him love, all people, including those who hate him? Does he know of other people who think his way, how many?

Then explain about the love we believers have among ourselves. The love we have for non believers and the time we spend trying to help them. The love we have for those who laugh at us, treat us unkindly and in some countries kill us. All in the name of Jesus Christ and his Cross. SofTy.

His beliefs seem to be kinda like Hindu beliefs and some other ancient religious stories. Also kinda with the no good or evil the Hindu story that lead to the creation of the Hare Krishna group. Where it is just their duty in life to do what they have to do so if you are a warrior that is your lot in life you cannot change it you must fight. In other words it is not good or evil it is just life.

pretty much most of them have been from the JW's for me. That it's wrong to donate blood one. Jesus hung on a pole and not the cross. Jesus isn't God. Moses was a JW.

It just one thing after another with that bunch.

There are the beliefs of the unitarians that was shared to me by a friend who works on alarm systems. He got a call to go to a unitarian church and work on their alarm system and asked them about their beliefs and was told one of them was they don't believe people commit sin. He asked them than why do you have an alarm system? He got no answer.

Of course I could cite myself before I started following Jesus Christ I had some pretty stupid beliefs. Ah the truth is freeing indeed.

Some of my most recent thoughts are:

I think some folks make up fantasy beliefs to quiet their consciences. The fact is, sin is our real problem and what separates us from God. We all have had feelings of guilt and try to quell them in some way. If we don't find peace from guilt through the blood of Jesus, we will invariably find some belief that does it for us. Perhaps it is the denial of right and wrong (and thus the denial of need for forgiveness), or the alleviation of guilt through religious ritual or good deeds.

I am reminded that it is only at the cross that the problem of our sin can be dealt with and we can be reconciled to our loving Creator.

A form of fatalism? These types of beliefs happen in a highly populated community where the individual will is hopelessly diluted in a massive sea of people. The same type of phenomenon is seen in the Roman Empire's phase of fastest expansion. People's beliefs gravitated to the more fatalistic cults such as astrology due to a perceived lack of control or influence of the insignificant individual. The opposite pole of this would be the Greek polis, where population is kept lower thereby allowing individual's to retain their political voice. I believe Rudolf Bultmann describes it well in Primitive Christianity.

I see this guy grappling with one of our Big Questions: Why is there suffering in the world?

This guy has it worked out that all suffering is in the context of this "game" and so it is not as serious as we think. So now HE doesn't have to think about it. I figured out my own way so that I don't have to think so much about it. We all know that the Book of Job studies the theme of suffering. As I interpret it, Job's sin is piety and God's correction for this is the ultimate lesson on natural history. But that's off the subject.

Anyway, the way I finally figured the problem of suffering was that it is similar to when a baby cries. The infant is in real pain and has no conception of the wider context. And the adult who picks up the baby and gently rocks it, saying "there, there" actually has a smile because the adult realizes the baby is troubled and crying, yet knows things will be okay.

We're the baby and God's the adult.