as it says on the tin...

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "moral right".

I firmly believe that animals have the right to be treated humanely. I believe that they have the right to not be abused and tortured. And with that, I believe that we have the moral responsibility to treat them kindly. They are alive. They feel pain. They feel fear. We ought not be the ones causing them pain and fear.

But I believe that no species of animal or plant (or anything) is beyond being killed by another life form. Animals kill other animals all the time for sustenance. But as beings who are able to transcend mere instinct, I believe when it comes to getting our meat, it is our responsibility to make the kill swift and merciful, making them suffer as little as possible before their light goes out. Even if they're about to die, their life is still precious.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "moral right".

I firmly believe that animals have the right to be treated humanely. I believe that they have the right to not be abused and tortured. And with that, I believe that we have the moral responsibility to treat them kindly. They are alive. They feel pain. They feel fear. We ought not be the ones causing them pain and fear.

But I believe that no species of animal or plant (or anything) is beyond being killed by another life form. Animals kill other animals all the time for sustenance. But as beings who are able to transcend mere instinct, I believe when it comes to getting our meat, it is our responsibility to make the kill swift and merciful, making them suffer as little as possible before their light goes out. Even if they're about to die, their life is still precious.out of curiosity (i'm not a strict vegetarian, although i don't buy meat), what is your take on the arguement that we don't actually need to kill them, given the many other options we now have available to us?

Hi there. I'm a vegan, and a Christian, and I believe that we (as humans) have a moral duty to treat animals well. The Bible says, "a righteous man regardeth the life of his beast," and I feel that the majority of people don't really think about what that implies. Having grown up round a lot of common or garden animal abuse (been in factory farms, etc) I believe the West has allowed gluttony to cloud it's moral judgment when it comes to animals.

When God created the world He left us in dominion. I am grateful that God's dominion over us is more merciful than our dominion over the earth. One thing we need to remember, perhaps the most important thing, is that though humans are obviously different from the animals, the animals are still God's creation. We hear through Scripture (Job, the Psalms, from Jesus Himself) that God provides for the animals, watches their seasons... even that animals pray. Although I can kill a fish and eat it I could never create a fish. So I would be very careful about the circumstances in which I would kill a fish, or a chicken, or a pig. For me personally, my life would have to be in danger.

However, I can no longer believe, as I used to, that it is a moral imperative for humans to "evolve" beyond the consumption of flesh... I don't think we have time to halt the world's race to destruction anyway, God is going to have to save the world, we're obviously incapable. We began creation as "herbiferous fructivores", (which is biologically how our systems work, and coincides with the Genesis account.) I no longer believe in evolution, or survival of the fittest, or any of that stuff. I simply believe that God created everything on the earth for His own purpose, and pleasure. Chickens originally lived in the rain forests, and lived in little flocks that explored the variety and charm of God's creation. They were not created to be crammed into factory farms as egg machines or units of flesh for us to consume thoughtlessly.

I know this answer will offend a lot of people, and I'm sorry, but I believe the Bible supports it. We need to think far more about what we put in our faces, and we need to regard the lives of the beasts that we profit from.

as it says on the tin...

on the tin ?? Rights as in human rights ? What does this have to do with the bible ?

as it says on the tin...
... What an odd question to be asking a bunch of Christians. Just as Daughter has told you, we have very specific instructions from our Father, God to be kind to our animals. You might note that one of my very best friends is Daughter and that is in spite of our differences in posture. I, being a Texas, grew up a carnivore and a hunter. Just like Mary, I hate such things as Egg Farms and for that reason have always supported people that sell yard eggs. Even the Chicken deserves to live it;'s life in a kind and cared for manor. One of our greatest treasures in Texas is the Prairie Chicken and one very strong reason for purchasing a Hunting License here is because the Game Wardens watch over their survival and use the license fees to support their safety.
... You really ought to read a modern version of the Bible and if you do so with an open mind you will be amazed at what God has said.

Can I just add that while I'm loving God and my neighbour, loving all believers and even my enemy - it's going to be differcult for me to not love animals and act responsibly towards them. SofTy.

I thought I'd beaten the computer for once, only to be thwarted again. :cry: SofTy.

The Torah does give strict instructions that we are to treat our animals kindly, he even describes a certian way of killing them so that they feel no pain. I believe we should abide by that. Another interesting thing is what happens to us after eating mistreated animals. The meat for the most part is not as good for us or the bi-products. Im definitly a fan of naturally treated animals.

God specifically mentions animals to Jonah and chastises him for lamenting about a plant, while challenging God for promising to destroy thousands of lives and livestock.
The message here is very plain, to me. God values animals and expects us to as well.
I am not sure what you mean by moral right. I think we have a moral imperative to treat them humanely. I don't believe that they believe that they have a right to fair and/or equal treatment, although I think my Saint Bernard thinks she is the exception.

animals don't even have morals , But the burden to treat them humanely is squarely on human shoulders Jmo

Animals have souls and contain spirits

And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one SOUL of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Num. 31:28

In whose hand is the SOUL of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. Job 12:10

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living SOUL died in the sea. Rev. 16:3

And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. Mark 5:13

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Eccl. 3:21

There is multitudes of verses concerning the care of the animals and beast of the earth and their God given moral rights.

I would agree animals have souls (feelings, emotions, intellect) but they do not have spirits. We will not see Fido in heaven. God breathed His spirit into Adam. We are to treat animals as we do any other part of His creation but understand - He gave us dominion over every living thing. Jesus even declared all kinds of animal to be clean for our consumption. We need animals for clothing and food but we are not to extinguish entire species to that end.

I sort of agree - animals and people ARE souls, and people have spirits.

One thing that I would like to hear from the OP is what he means by the term "moral right." Different people groups amongst humans have different rights. Some of them are "moral", some societal. For example, one could argue that a nursing mother has a moral right not to be sexually harassed for feeding her new born in public. But the same woman feeding the same child in the same way fifteen years later would be locked up for impinging on the moral rights of that child.

What is a "moral" right? Is the moral right defined by the object of the right, or by the giver of the right? I believe animals have moral rights, but that doesn't (obviously) mean that they have the right to vote.

So, what is a moral right?

as it says on the tin...

I think we make too much to do about animals. We treat them better than we treat the orphans the widows and the poor. We defend them more than our children and we pamper them more than the weak and hungry.

100 years ago animals were kept outside and some were slaughtered as food. Now we line up with PET and other groups to defend their "morals" .....what a sad state we are in.

:B

Yes, I think animals have rights. True, in the wild animals eat each other. But those predators HAVE to do it - otherwise they would not survive. So its like a necessary evil. But we don't HAVE to intentionally kill animals to survive. So I think its wrong to kill animals to eat them. Plus, people kill animals for clothing, and sometimes just for fun. Also, people kill animals in the most cruel ways imaginable.

Does anyone really think God would smile upon those hunters clubbing baby seals to death? Or people tossing lobsters in boiling water to be boiled alive? Or force feeding geese for months on end just so we can kill them and eat their fatty livers? I mean, does anyone think God would smile upon that?

Frustrated,

Bex

Ummm...God gave us INSTRUCTION for raising animals for food and for sacrifice, so no, I don't think He has a problem with us continuing the practice to this day. Jesus ate meat...meat that was raised and slaughtered specifically for human consumption. He got His hands on fish Himself, in fact and fried those bad boys up for His Disciples.

What I know He DOES have a problem with, according to scripture, is an attitude of superiority or condesension over eating meat versus not eating meat. That's in the Bible too, and Paul specifically addresses not coping an attitude toward those who eat meat if you do not.

True, it was in the context of eating meat sacrificed to idols, but it translates to this discussion just as well.

There's nothing unBiblical or "wrong" in God's eyes with eating meat. That's backed up all over Scripture.

animals don't even have morals , But the burden to treat them humanely is squarely on human shoulders Jmo
why is it a burden?

One thing that I would like to hear from the OP is what he means by the term "moral right." Different people groups amongst humans have different rights. Some of them are "moral", some societal. For example, one could argue that a nursing mother has a moral right not to be sexually harassed for feeding her new born in public. But the same woman feeding the same child in the same way fifteen years later would be locked up for impinging on the moral rights of that child.

What is a "moral" right? Is the moral right defined by the object of the right, or by the giver of the right? I believe animals have moral rights, but that doesn't (obviously) mean that they have the right to vote.

So, what is a moral right?
i guess what i mean is "do our morals that we apply to each other apply to other beings that feel similar emotions and feelins us ourselves?"

moral rights involve the way inwhich beings are treated - i'm wondering if this is exclusing to humans, and whether we are alowed to inflict suffering on animals because they aren't able to understand such concepts.

i am new to the boards so i hope i am doing this correctly. personally i am a weird sort of vegetarian. i don't eat animals that are "sentient" so i pay a lot of attention to the neurology of animals. basically this means that i eat sea food because they are mostly non sentient (shrimp, lobster, crab, fish...). i believe that to kill or mistreat an animal like a cow or pig is wrong in the same way that it is wrong to do the same to a human. animals are capable of feeling pain, emotions, and they have interests. pain and suffering are bad things so you cannot arbitrarily harm another being who can feel pain (and since animals aren't sentient "enough" to be obligated to act "morally," they can never do "wrong" or deserve punishment in any kind of way.) there are instances of course where it is forgivable to kill an animal. if it is the best food you can possibly get your hands on and you are starving to death then obviously it is fine. if someone tells you to torture a puppy or they will kill a house men women and children, you probably aught to swollow your convictions and do it for the sake of the people. (the hard fact to realize is that the same applies to humans, not just puppies, so if you were in a situation like this where you played the puppy in a sense, it would be right for the same thing to happen to you.) also i believe animals can be killed in the same situations as humans - when they are in constant agonizing pain or otherwise in a state of life that is not worth living or desirable at all. but i suppose that is another matter up for debate.

One must be careful in taking 'morality' for animals too far...

It can be taken to the extreme where you will end up 'worshipping' and 'serving' the creature MORE than the CREATOR...

This is revealed in Romans...

You will see that in extreme groups like PETA and groups like that..

who will place the 'animal' above humans and human rights..

They cry and scream about eating chicken or beef.. and the harm it does to animals..

yet then they will take and turn a naked eye to atrocitites done to humans in different parts of this planet...

totally given over to 'worshipping' protecting the creature where there is 100% lovelessness , no compassion or mercy shown to atrocitites done on the level of humans.. men women and children..

If a person has a moral objection to animals being killed for food, the only way they can stand by such a position is is they are personally growing and harvesting by hand every ounce of food they eat. This leaves 99% of vegetarians & vegans out of the picture because the fact is that the head of lettuce or ear of corn, or broccoli that they enjoy was harvested using modern machinery that kills billions of small "sentient" animals every year such as mice, rats rabbits and other animals that live in those huge fields.

In the modern world mankind can not eat without killing animals, whether he is killing them to eat them or killing them as a by product of getting vegetables to eat. That's just the way it is. Now, if the PETA and other "ethical treatment of animals" folk, have their own farm on which they grown and hand-harvest their own food want to talk about the ethics of killing animals for food, they've got a legitimate beef. Otherwise all I hear is hypocrisy for convenience's sake.

Taken to its logical extreme (which PETA folk will never do) it would be logistically impossible to feed the world today without killing animals, because doing so would require a massive army of old-school farmers living in concentrated areas where crops are grown and tended.

As someone who typically lives the vegetarian lifestyle, I understand the health benefits fully, but what I do not do is live in an unrealistic, self-superior bubble based on my diet choices. Others give thanks for the cow that was slaughtered before they enjoy their steak. I may as well give thanks to the two rabbits that died horribly cut to pieces so that I can enjoy my asparagus salad & baked potato.

It is perfectly true that obligations and duties are between moral persons, and therefore the lower animals are not susceptible of the moral obligations which we owe to one another; but we owe a seven-fold obligation to the Creator of those animals. Our obligation and moral duty is to Him who made them and if we wish to know the limit and the broad outline of our obligation, I say at once it is His nature and His perfections, and among these perfections one is, most profoundly, that of Eternal Mercy. And therefore, although a poor mule or a poor horse is not, indeed, a moral person, yet the Lord and Maker of the mule is the highest Lawgiver, and His nature is a law unto Himself. And in giving a dominion over His creatures to man, He gave it subject to the condition that it should be used in conformity to His perfections which is His own law, and therefore our law - Cardinal Manning (The Zoophilist, London, 1 April, 1887).

I think this says it all and why.

Folks, we've just had to go through and clean up this thread...and a whole slew of posts are now gone.

The rules of the CA forum specifically state that all responses must be both addressed to the OP and must be in answer to the question(s) posed by the OP.

If your post is gone or has been edited to remove a quotation or link, then either:

1. You were addressing a fellow Christian and not the Original Poster.

2. You were not answering the original question, or a subsequent question asked by the OP in the thread.

Most of you know the rules. If you do not know the rules, then read them here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=138023) before you post any further in this thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.

i guess what i mean is "do our morals that we apply to each other apply to other beings that feel similar emotions and feelins us ourselves?"

moral rights involve the way inwhich beings are treated - i'm wondering if this is exclusing to humans, and whether we are alowed to inflict suffering on animals because they aren't able to understand such concepts.
Unfortunately you will find many Christians who don't care that our modern animal husbandry methods(fur farms, factory farms, and slaughterhouses) are abusive to animals but our Creator does want us to care about them...

Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.

I have to agree with Kantian Moral Ethics, that states animals in themselves do not have rights because they are amoral. However a man that wants to hurt animals in a mean and inhumane way may then take out that abuse on humans. SO in conclusion animals dont have moral rights themselves but humans should afford animals rights so that humans don't treat each other badly as well as animals.

To answer the OP, no, I don't think animals have 'moral rights'. Animals are not 'moral', in the sense of knowing right from wrong, and doing it.


out of curiosity (i'm not a strict vegetarian, although i don't buy meat), what is your take on the arguement that we don't actually need to kill them, given the many other options we now have available to us?
We don't need to, but we have been told we can eat them, by God:

"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things." (Genesis 9:3)

why is it a burden?
It really isn't a literal burden but this is a very strange question to ask Christians anyway,.It seems as if you are coming down on the side of some rather extremist groups such as peta and their ilk .I have a great thankfulness for all the different creatures God created.As for an answer to your question, If we don't treat our animals the way some person thinks is up to their standards you can believe their will be some government agency will show up and fine us and take us to jail.I think we should feed and water and care for our animals and be good stewards of what God put here for our use.The bible backs me on this.He gave man dominion over them.I believe strongly in conservation and actually spend money on it every year,because I grew up in the country and got to see the difference between animal life and human life.I find it odd that in my home state you have to take a16 hr course on Hunter Education to buy a hunting Liicense,but you can marry( or not marry) and procreate at will.I don't think govt. should have the right to tell us how many kids we can or cannot have,but I have alot more Important things to worry about than an animals "rights",such as old people who are forgotten about in the nursing homes,children being abandoned and abused,people without food or warm clothes.That is why it is a burden on society to take care of animals that others don't,and misprioritizing where our efforts should be concentrated .I don't mean to offend you but I have fed animals all my life and have eaten them all my life after feeding them .It is just the natural order of things.

as it says on the tin...

Animals don't have rights, for they are unable to exercise a right if they were given one. Man has responsibility for them. Also man was given dominion over animals, as God gave to Adam.

God has declared them food for us, but it was not so before sin came into the world.

One has to be careful that that they don't give preference to animals over humans. That was done in India where they worshiped cows and other animals, while children starved to death.

Today we are coming to a point where animals are almost worshiped, something God frowns upon.

A hundred year ago this wouldn't have been a question, since everyone depended on animals for food and clothing for survival.

Best regards, Terrell