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reformedct
Feb 8th 2009, 03:41 PM
i have been studying over romans 9-11 for a while, and i cant help but think that God determined that many Jews would not believe.

of course Jews were broken off because of unbelief, but then the Bible turns around and says that it is God who is temporarily blinding them and that He will remove the blinders later on.

so did God actively blind Jews so that Gentiles could be grafted in, or did the Jews just so happen to not believe and Gentiles just so happened to be benefited by this?

Benaiah
Feb 8th 2009, 04:27 PM
i have been studying over romans 9-11 for a while, and i cant help but think that God determined that many Jews would not believe.

of course Jews were broken off because of unbelief, but then the Bible turns around and says that it is God who is temporarily blinding them and that He will remove the blinders later on.

so did God actively blind Jews so that Gentiles could be grafted in, or did the Jews just so happen to not believe and Gentiles just so happened to be benefited by this?

I would say no, He did not cause them to not believe, The "blindness" was punishment for their disobedience and unbelief.


Act 7:51 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

And it is to that God placed blindness upon them, all men have that same blindness.


1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
We are all "Blind" unless the Spirit of the Lord reveals things to us. In this case God simply allowed those who were disobedient to continue in thier blindness.

Joey Porter
Feb 8th 2009, 04:32 PM
I think this is what we would have to call "parallel truths." Truths that don't come together because they don't fit together, yet, they are both true. I do not believe Yahweh has given us the capacity in our earthly minds to understand this.

We as individuals have the freedom to choose to do our own thing, the ability to believe or not believe, accept or reject, etc. And yet, every single minute choice that has ever been made by every human has been ordained and orchestrated by Yahweh.

I have pondered this for years and have come to the conclusion that both are true, but have not yet been able to reconcile or harmonize the two truths.

reformedct
Feb 8th 2009, 05:09 PM
I would say no, He did not cause them to not believe, The "blindness" was punishment for their disobedience and unbelief.



And it is to that God placed blindness upon them, all men have that same blindness.

We are all "Blind" unless the Spirit of the Lord reveals things to us. In this case God simply allowed those who were disobedient to continue in thier blindness.

this makes the most sense to me so far. i believe God hardened them/blinded them not by doing something to them actively but allowing them to continue in rebellion

John146
Feb 9th 2009, 07:07 PM
this makes the most sense to me so far. i believe God hardened them/blinded them not by doing something to them actively but allowing them to continue in rebellionI agree with that. It makes no sense for Him to have punished them the way He did in 70 AD if their unbelief and rebellion was His doing. The following passage would make no sense, either.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

keck553
Feb 9th 2009, 07:25 PM
of course Jews were broken off because of unbelief.



Careful there, Jesus was a Jew. I think he meant 'unbelieving Jews'.

Concerning the unbelief; as with Pharoah, God will harden a rebelious heart.

james1965
Feb 10th 2009, 01:48 AM
i have been studying over romans 9-11 for a while, and i cant help but think that God determined that many Jews would not believe.

of course Jews were broken off because of unbelief, but then the Bible turns around and says that it is God who is temporarily blinding them and that He will remove the blinders later on.

so did God actively blind Jews so that Gentiles could be grafted in, or did the Jews just so happen to not believe and Gentiles just so happened to be benefited by this?

God placed a veil on the house of Israel (included the Jews) because of their disobedience. See God's divorce of Israel in Jeremiah 3:8 This veil was put over all nations See Isa 25:6

Romans 11:7 speaks of this veil "slumber eyes" See also Matt 13:10 Christ spake in parables for it was not given to the masses to understand the things of God. See also John 12:40 God had blinded them, hardened their hearts.

Hope this helps in giving you some things to look up. j.

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