Butch5 had an interesting interpretation, saying that Paul was refferring to the heros of old(Abraham, Issac, Jacob) since the verbs are in the pas tense(these He glorified). i think this is a logical interpretation. is there evidence that romans 8:29-30 apply to all christians? if so, is it possible that the chain can be broken? (please argue from the immediate context of the book of romans and chapter 8 alone if you can.)

Butch5 had an interesting interpretation, saying that Paul was refferring to the heros of old(Abraham, Issac, Jacob) since the verbs are in the pas tense(these He glorified). i think this is a logical interpretation. is there evidence that romans 8:29-30 apply to all christians? if so, is it possible that the chain can be broken? (please argue from the immediate context of the book of romans and chapter 8 alone if you can.)

Hi reformed,

Let me say that I am not saying that Paul was definitely speaking of Abraham Issac and Jacob, however he was speaking of Israelites of the past. Here is another point that I did not mention, in verse 28 Paul says,

Romans 8:28 ( KJV ) 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

The Greek word know means to see, Basically Paul is saying for we have seen that God works all things together for good, to those who love Him. This is something that Paul and his readers have seen. Therefore it cannot be that is future.

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

G1492 εἴδω eidō Thayer Definition: 1) to see 1a) to perceive with the eyes 1b) to perceive by any of the senses 1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover 1d) to see 1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything 1d2) to pay attention, observe 1d3) to see about something 1d3a) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it 1d4) to inspect, examine 1d5) to look at, behold 1e) to experience any state or condition 1f) to see, i.e. have an interview with, to visit 2) to know 2a) to know of anything 2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive 2b1) of any fact 2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning 2b3) to know how, to be skilled in 2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament

G1492. εἴδω eidō. To see. This verb is obsolete in the pres. act. for which horaō (G3708), to see with perception, is used. The tenses derived from the meaning of eidō form two families, one of which has exclusively the meaning of to see, the other that of to know.

Notice that the definitions pertain to something that can be seen and known, further support that Paul was speaking of something that he and his readers had seen.

Butch5 had an interesting interpretation, saying that Paul was refferring to the heros of old(Abraham, Issac, Jacob) since the verbs are in the pas tense(these He glorified). i think this is a logical interpretation. is there evidence that romans 8:29-30 apply to all christians? if so, is it possible that the chain can be broken? (please argue from the immediate context of the book of romans and chapter 8 alone if you can.)

One thing that comes to mind is the idea that our glorification is a future hope as he says elsewhere in this same chapter.

Also, since these verses fall on the heals of verse 28, it would appear that the subject encompasses all those whom God has called.

I wonder if Paul might be speaking from the divine point of view in order to give force to his encouragement that God works all things to our good? It's as if, putting it all in the past tense casts it in concrete so to speak.

Just speculating here.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1 (KJV)
Romans 8 begins with speaking to believers, I take the whole chapter as such. The truths of verses 28-30 apply to all the elect from the beginning of time to the end.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1 (KJV)
Romans 8 begins with speaking to believers, I take the whole chapter as such. The truths of verses 28-30 apply to all the elect from the beginning of time to the end.

Agreed. Many use this set of verses in the free will predestination argument, but as far as that is concerned, I think that issue is solved in the following.

From our perspective, we don't know the future, so we live our life making the choices we believe to be correct.

From God's perspective, he lives outside of time and know the end from the beginning because he sits outside the big picture looking in. He didn't create people to be eternally separated from him. But from his perspective, he knew who would be with him in the end, from the beginning.

So when Paul writes "for whom he did foreknow," I think he is simply speaking of God's all knowing character, for he did know in the beginning who would be with him in the end.

Bosco

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1 (KJV)
Romans 8 begins with speaking to believers, I take the whole chapter as such. The truths of verses 28-30 apply to all the elect from the beginning of time to the end.

The things in these Scriptures do apply to all believers, The question is, who is Paul speaking of in these verses.

Agreed. Many use this set of verses in the free will predestination argument, but as far as that is concerned, I think that issue is solved in the following.

From our perspective, we don't know the future, so we live our life making the choices we believe to be correct.

From God's perspective, he lives outside of time and know the end from the beginning because he sits outside the big picture looking in. He didn't create people to be eternally separated from him. But from his perspective, he knew who would be with him in the end, from the beginning.

So when Paul writes "for whom he did foreknow," I think he is simply speaking of God's all knowing character, for he did know in the beginning who would be with him in the end.

Bosco

Those He did foreknow speaks of a past event.

Those He did foreknow speaks of a past event.

I agree it can be taken that way...but, does it not say of Jeremiah that God knew him before he was in the womb? So you have a past tense application to a present time situation. I am merely submitting that could be the case in Romans 8 as God did foreknow us all.

Bosco

I agree it can be taken that way...but, does it not say of Jeremiah that God knew him before he was in the womb? So you have a past tense application to a present time situation. I am merely submitting that could be the case in Romans 8 as God did foreknow us all.

Bosco

When Jeremiah was writing, God's knowing him from the womb was in the past, not the present. Also in Romans 28 Paul says for we know, or for we have observed, for paul and his readers to have observed something it had to be tangle, and in the past.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1 (KJV)
Romans 8 begins with speaking to believers, I take the whole chapter as such. The truths of verses 28-30 apply to all the elect from the beginning of time to the end.


The things in these Scriptures do apply to all believers, The question is, who is Paul speaking of in these verses.

He is speaking to ALL believers! That is believers who have already come and gone, as well as those living at the time Paul spoke these words, also every believer who would read these words. Paul puts this in present tense when he says, "What shall WE then say to these things?"

Ro 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Ro 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

In verse 28 Paul says "we know"...meaning we understand, we have this knowledge, we are aware, we perceive these things because God has not left us (every believer) without this understanding. It comes through the power of His Word and Holy Spirit. This same understanding, or knowledge is given to all believers throughout time and is NOT limited to only those in the past. His elect are called His own sheep, and they "know" His voice. To "know" His voice is the same word Paul uses when he says, "we know that all things work together"... Would we argue His sheep who "know His voice" and follow Him is past tense only? I think not!

Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5 had an interesting interpretation, saying that Paul was refferring to the heros of old(Abraham, Issac, Jacob) since the verbs are in the pas tense(these He glorified). i think this is a logical interpretation. is there evidence that romans 8:29-30 apply to all christians? if so, is it possible that the chain can be broken? (please argue from the immediate context of the book of romans and chapter 8 alone if you can.)To answer this question I think we have to define what it means to be glorified. Paul talks about it earlier in the same chapter.

While the Romans 8:29-30 passage speaks of people being glorified as if it was past tense, I believe that no one has been glorified yet (except Christ) if I understand glorification correctly. I believe that does not occur until we are changed and have immortal bodies, which is a future event (1 Cor 15:51-54). I believe Paul teaches that earlier in the same chapter.

Romans 8
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

In this passage he seems to equate glorification with the redemption of our body. Being glorified seems to be something that we believers are all waiting for rather than something that has already happened for some. This is why I believe no one has yet been glorified because I believe all believers will be glorified at the same time when we are changed and have new immortal bodies.

I think that from God's perspective, since He is outside the realm of time, we are already glorified even though in the realm of time we have not yet been glorified. That's why it can be spoken of as if it was past tense even though it has not actually happened yet. So, I do believe that Romans 8:29-30 is speaking of all believers from all-time.

To answer this question I think we have to define what it means to be glorified. Paul talks about it earlier in the same chapter.

While the Romans 8:29-30 passage speaks of people being glorified as if it was past tense, I believe that no one has been glorified yet (except Christ) if I understand glorification correctly. I believe that does not occur until we are changed and have immortal bodies, which is a future event (1 Cor 15:51-54). I believe Paul teaches that earlier in the same chapter.

Romans 8
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

In this passage he seems to equate glorification with the redemption of our body. Being glorified seems to be something that we believers are all waiting for rather than something that has already happened for some. This is why I believe no one has yet been glorified because I believe all believers will be glorified at the same time when we are changed and have new immortal bodies.

I think that from God's perspective, since He is outside the realm of time, we are already glorified even though in the realm of time we have not yet been glorified. That's why it can be spoken of as if it was past tense even though it has not actually happened yet. So, I do believe that Romans 8:29-30 is speaking of all believers from all-time.

This is a very good point Eric! Verse 24 says, "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"

The hope we are saved by is not what we often think of as wishful thinking, or a longing for, desiring something that might not come to pass. NO! Hope here is confident expectation of what we know will come to pass. That of course being complete deliverance when we shall be clothed with our glorified bodies. Good post!

Many Blessings,
RW

This is a very good point Eric! Verse 24 says, "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"

The hope we are saved by is not what we often think of as wishful thinking, or a longing for, desiring something that might not come to pass. NO! Hope here is confident expectation of what we know will come to pass. That of course being complete deliverance when we shall be clothed with our glorified bodies. Good post!

Many Blessings,
RWThank you. It's nice that we can at least agree on something. :D

Yes, we are not just hoping that maybe we will one day have glorified bodies while being unsure if that event will actually happen. We are waiting in anticipation and expectation for that event to happen at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:52).

Thank you. It's nice that we can at least agree on something. :D

Yes, we are not just hoping that maybe we will one day have glorified bodies while being unsure if that event will actually happen. We are waiting in anticipation and expectation for that event to happen at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:52).

While waiting for the next shoe to drop, can you explain how someone can have a confident expectation of glorification without a confident expectation of perseverance?

While waiting for the next shoe to drop, can you explain how someone can have a confident expectation of glorification without a confident expectation of perseverance?

I could not perservere on my own strength, I know that from personal experience.
I would say we lean on God for that strength, and we should have confidence in Him (I think you are saying this), and not sell Him short. We may leave Him at times, but He never leaves us.

While waiting for the next shoe to drop, can you explain how someone can have a confident expectation of glorification without a confident expectation of perseverance?Can you clarify what you mean? I'd rather not try to answer without knowing for sure what you're asking.

Can you clarify what you mean? I'd rather not try to answer without knowing for sure what you're asking.

Do you affirm the doctrine that suggests a person can never know for sure whether he or she will persevere to the end since that person can always decide to leave?

He is speaking to ALL believers! That is believers who have already come and gone, as well as those living at the time Paul spoke these words, also every believer who would read these words. Paul puts this in present tense when he says, "What shall WE then say to these things?"

Ro 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Ro 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

In verse 28 Paul says "we know"...meaning we understand, we have this knowledge, we are aware, we perceive these things because God has not left us (every believer) without this understanding. It comes through the power of His Word and Holy Spirit. This same understanding, or knowledge is given to all believers throughout time and is NOT limited to only those in the past. His elect are called His own sheep, and they "know" His voice. To "know" His voice is the same word Paul uses when he says, "we know that all things work together"... Would we argue His sheep who "know His voice" and follow Him is past tense only? I think not!

Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Many Blessings,
RW


Roger,

Paul is speaking "of" past believers, he is speaking "to" current believers at his time. What he says in these verses pertains to all believers of all time. The word translated know, means to see, to observe.

You said,


Roger---In verse 28 Paul says "we know"...meaning we understand, we have this knowledge, we are aware, we perceive these things because God has not left us (every believer) without this understanding. It comes through the power of His Word and Holy Spirit. This same understanding, or knowledge is given to all believers throughout time and is NOT limited to only those in the past.

Please show me where Scripture teaches this.

I went through passage and showed how it fits the context of what Paul is writing about. Can you please take you interpretation and expound this passage for us so that we can see how your interpretation fits this passage and the rest of Scripture?

To answer this question I think we have to define what it means to be glorified. Paul talks about it earlier in the same chapter.

While the Romans 8:29-30 passage speaks of people being glorified as if it was past tense, I believe that no one has been glorified yet (except Christ) if I understand glorification correctly. I believe that does not occur until we are changed and have immortal bodies, which is a future event (1 Cor 15:51-54). I believe Paul teaches that earlier in the same chapter.

Romans 8
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

In this passage he seems to equate glorification with the redemption of our body. Being glorified seems to be something that we believers are all waiting for rather than something that has already happened for some. This is why I believe no one has yet been glorified because I believe all believers will be glorified at the same time when we are changed and have new immortal bodies.

I think that from God's perspective, since He is outside the realm of time, we are already glorified even though in the realm of time we have not yet been glorified. That's why it can be spoken of as if it was past tense even though it has not actually happened yet. So, I do believe that Romans 8:29-30 is speaking of all believers from all-time.

How could Paul's readers have seen something that has not yet happened?

While waiting for the next shoe to drop, can you explain how someone can have a confident expectation of glorification without a confident expectation of perseverance?

Excecellent point.

Roger,

Paul is speaking "of" past believers, he is speaking "to" current believers at his time. What he says in these verses pertains to all believers of all time. The word translated know, means to see, to observe.

You said,

Please show me where Scripture teaches this.

I went through passage and showed how it fits the context of what Paul is writing about. Can you please take you interpretation and expound this passage for us so that we can see how your interpretation fits this passage and the rest of Scripture?

1492 eido - a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent 3700 and 3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:--be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot.

Ro 2:2 But we are sure [eido] that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Ro 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing [eido]that tribulation worketh patience;

Ro 6:16 Know ye [eido] not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Ro 8:22 For we know [eido] that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know [eido] not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

As we can see, the Greek word eido implies means to see in the sense of having knowledge or understanding of a thing. It is far more than simply seeing with the eyes. It is not simply Paul and his readers seeing, but Paul and every believer "knowing"...understanding, perceiving with the mind, not the eyes.

Eido is also used to express something being seen with the eyes, but the context clearly shows this because the word eido has been translated see, seen or saw when it implies seeing with the eyes, or physical sight.

Many Blessings,
RW

1492 eido - a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent 3700 and 3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:--be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot.

Ro 2:2 But we are sure [eido] that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Ro 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing [eido]that tribulation worketh patience;

Ro 6:16 Know ye [eido] not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Ro 8:22 For we know [eido] that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know [eido] not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

As we can see, the Greek word eido implies means to see in the sense of having knowledge or understanding of a thing. It is far more than simply seeing with the eyes. It is not simply Paul and his readers seeing, but Paul and every believer "knowing"...understanding, perceiving with the mind, not the eyes.

Eido is also used to express something being seen with the eyes, but the context clearly shows this because the word eido has been translated see, seen or saw when it implies seeing with the eyes, or physical sight.

Many Blessings,
RW

Now please explain how Paul's readers would "know" future events. How would Paul's readers know that "all" of those who were called were justified. Notice in Paul's statement none were left out they were all justified. Your contention that Paul is saying they know they will be glorified, is contradictory to Paul's own words,

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


1 Corinthians 9:26-27 ( KJV ) 26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Please explain how Paul is telling the Romans they are guaranteed glorification when he himself says he could be cast away? Surely Paul knows the Scriptures, he's not telling the Romans one thing and the Corinthians the opposite.

So I ask you, how did Paul and his readers "know"?