This question rides the fence between theology and philosophy, I'm looking for opinions....

In the Bible, God's wrath is always directed against evil, the opposite of good. We know intuitively that it would be completely wrong for God to repay a legitimately moral act with punishment. This seems to support the notion that God cannot logically destroy good.

Assuming God is the greatest goodness from which all other things "good" derive, is it logically possible for God to destroy any good?

For further clarification....I believe Aristotle made the legitimate distinction that descriptive truth (that which pertains to matter, such as scientific facts) differs from prescriptive (moral) truth, what we typically call "spiritual truth". The former would not apply here. For instance, the beauty of a mountain range is not affected if the range were leveled. Matter was created to be a part of the temproal realm, the world of change. No moral value applies to matter, per se.

But in the realm of universals--such as principles--there's a power inherent in "good" that it seems illogical for God to abolish. For instance, it's unthinkable that He would annul or eliminate the good "mercy".

So, narrowed down: Is it logically possible for God to destroy prescriptive, moral or spiritual good of any kind? If so, why?

This question rides the fence between theology and philosophy, I'm looking for opinions....

In the Bible, God's wrath is always directed against evil, the opposite of good. We know intuitively that it would be completely wrong for God to repay a legitimately moral act with punishment. This seems to support the notion that God cannot logically destroy good.

Assuming God is the greatest goodness from which all other things "good" derive, is it logically possible for God to destroy any good?

For further clarification....I believe Aristotle made the legitimate distinction that descriptive truth (that which pertains to matter, such as scientific facts) differs from prescriptive (moral) truth, what we typically call "spiritual truth". The former would not apply here. For instance, the
beauty of a mountain range is not affected if the range were leveled. Matter was created to be a part of the temproal realm, the world of change. No moral value applies to matter, per se.

But in the realm of universals--such as principles--there's a power inherent in "good" that it seems illogical for God to abolish. For instance, it's unthinkable that He would annul or eliminate the good "mercy".

So, narrowed down: Is it logically possible for God to destroy prescriptive, moral or spiritual good of any kind? If so, why?

Hello Bernie....

In Truth.. there is Only One who Is Truly and Really Good..who is overflowing with Goodness and Mercy..... and it's His Glory.. His Goodness...

That Person is God Himself... there is no other that is 'good'....

So logically if God was to destroy Good...

Then He would have to Destroy Himself.. leaving nothing left in this Universe...

For

He Upholds Everything.. by the Word of His Power.. to the last single atoms and molecule...

If He destroyed Himself.. the Only True Good Person... then You and I would not exist....

this universe, eternity, time itself.. would Cease to Exist..

there would be Nothing...

I don't believe He will do that.. It's not His Nature..

God is good. Nothing else is good. God cannot destroy himself.

This is akin to absolute possibility, or the belief that God can do anything. In fact, the bible teaches us that God can do anything within His nature. Considering reason and logic are within His nature, this would mean that He cannot perform a logical contradiction, because it is impossible for a logical contradiction to exist (it cannot be hypothesized or actualized in any possible worlds).

Thus, God cannot destroy goodness because He is goodness. He cannot be self-defeating, as this is a logical contradiction.

Hi BelovedDisciple,

Thanks for responding.


In Truth.. there is Only One who Is Truly and Really Good..who is overflowing with Goodness and Mercy..... and it's His Glory.. His Goodness...

That Person is God Himself... there is no other that is 'good'....

So logically if God was to destroy Good...

Then He would have to Destroy Himself.. leaving nothing left in this Universe...
I'm not sure that destroying literally any good would necessitate God destroying Himself immedately or at the same time, but I agree that ultimately any rent in God's perfection would eventually lead to the eventual destruction of everything....or so it would seem to me.


I don't believe He will do that.. It's not His Nature..
Agreed.

Greetings Rabbi Knife,


God is good. Nothing else is good. God cannot destroy himself.
Could you elaborate? Do you mean this literally, that the only good of any sort that exists anywhere is God? If so, this seems to imply that everything that is not God is bad, that there's no good anywhere else. Is this what you mean?

Hi ak,


Thus, God cannot destroy goodness because He is goodness. He cannot be self-defeating, as this is a logical contradiction.
I agree totally.

But I want to be sure we have truth in this matter to the highest possible degree we're able to attain to. I want to make sure we're on the same page. The Bible is full, especially in the OT prophets, of wrath toward individuals who transgress His law. It's important to not consider this question merely in regard to individuals, but to find the truth of it regarding even the smallest bit or essence of good in itself. Is there any possible way God could dissolve, annihilate, reject, dismantle or otherwise expel even the tiniest iota of good?

God is the source of all goodness, no matter how tiny
God cannot perform a contradiction, like self negate himself
Therefore, God cannot destroy even the tiniest bit of goodness

That is the logical syllogism you're probably looking for. Logically, God cannot destroy goodness because He cannot negate His own nature.

God is the source of all goodness, no matter how tiny
God cannot perform a contradiction, like self negate himself
Therefore, God cannot destroy even the tiniest bit of goodness

That is the logical syllogism you're probably looking for. Logically, God cannot destroy goodness because He cannot negate His own nature.


Yep.. you took the words right out of my mouth...

good post.. and thank you..

God is the Only One that is Good.. and He IS THE SOURCE of any Goodness ...

God being the Source of Goodness and Author of It...

cannot Destroy Himself...

It Would Contradict His Nature and His Glory....

for...........

His Goodness is also His Glory...

One other question. Consider evil, the antithesis of good.

Good, per se, has the nature of (among other goods) life, unity, virtue, benefit.

Evil, per se, carried to its extreme, brings forth death, chaos, imperfection, consequence.

I feel it safe to say that pure evil per se is logically impossible because the thing which contained pure evil would naturally and inevitably proceed toward its own destruction. Would this be true in your opinion?

One other question. Consider evil, the antithesis of good.

Good, per se, has the nature of (among other goods) life, unity, virtue, benefit.

Evil, per se, carried to its extreme, brings forth death, chaos, imperfection, consequence.

I feel it safe to say that pure evil per se is logically impossible because the thing which contained pure evil would naturally and inevitably proceed toward its own destruction. Would this be true in your opinion?

I don't think we see pure evil. We see the results of pure evil. Evil will not destroy itself. That is what God will do, in God's own time. It is why there will be no sin in Heaven. The consequences of evil reach out further than any of us can know. Thank God for Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

One other question. Consider evil, the antithesis of good.

Good, per se, has the nature of (among other goods) life, unity, virtue, benefit.

Evil, per se, carried to its extreme, brings forth death, chaos, imperfection, consequence.

I feel it safe to say that pure evil per se is logically impossible because the thing which contained pure evil would naturally and inevitably proceed toward its own destruction. Would this be true in your opinion?

I agree that pure evil would work toward its destruction, but this does not necessitate that such evil cannot exist.

I will say this - evil, by nature, must be illogical. As true logic comes from the mind and nature of God (as He created a universe of chaotic order) and evil being the absence of God, evil is likewise absent of logic.

I agree that pure evil would work toward its destruction, but this does not necessitate that such evil cannot exist.

I will say this - evil, by nature, must be illogical. As true logic comes from the mind and nature of God (as He created a universe of chaotic order) and evil being the absence of God, evil is likewise absent of logic.

I dont think so. Evil can be logical and calculating...just as much as good at times can be deemed a bit illogical. I think there was something I read once about a scientist measuring the brain patterns of a person in love, and comparing that against a person who was insane..and the brain patterns were very similar. I think Love can often times lead one to do illogical things, and evil can sometimes lead one to do things that are strictly deemed logical and beneficial. Not saying that logic unto itself isn't something that doesn't inherently come from one who is "good", just don't think one should always think that evil is something that is done outside of the realms of logic.

I dont think so. Evil can be logical and calculating...just as much as good at times can be deemed a bit illogical. I think there was something I read once about a scientist measuring the brain patterns of a person in love, and comparing that against a person who was insane..and the brain patterns were very similar. I think Love can often times lead one to do illogical things, and evil can sometimes lead one to do things that are strictly deemed logical and beneficial. Not saying that logic unto itself isn't something that doesn't inherently come from one who is "good", just don't think one should always think that evil is something that is done outside of the realms of logic.

Thinks of this scenario.

God to Adam and Eve after eating from the tree: I told you not to eat from it, the minute you eat from the tree of knowledge you will surely die. I will remove you from the garden lest you eat from the tree of life, and live forever.

Serpent to Eve: Eating from the tree is not a bad thing..you'll be like him..knowing the difference between good and evil.

So logic would dictate that the serpents response to eating was more logical and profound than God's..but we know that the serpent had evil intentions for both Adam and Eve..while God's intentions were indeed good for mankind.

So I guess I agree with you. Logic doesn't always equate to good or good intentions.

Thinks of this scenario.

God to Adam and Eve after eating from the tree: I told you not to eat from it, the minute you eat from the tree of knowledge you will surely die. I will remove you from the garden lest you eat from the tree of life, and live forever.

Serpent to Eve: Eating from the tree is not a bad thing..you'll be like him..knowing the difference between good and evil.

So logic would dictate that the serpents response to eating was more logical and profound than God's..but we know that the serpent had evil intentions for both Adam and Eve..while God's intentions were indeed good for mankind.

So I guess I agree with you. Logic doesn't always equate to good or good intentions.

Yeah I agree to a point..I still think though that God does moreso operate within the realm of logic though, or else we would be living in a world of confusion and meaningless drivel. We have a certain set of rules and things that he deems "good" to be. I think if God was always working outside the realm of what he has deemed "good" to be..he would be a bit anarchic..and it would be pointless to really purue any type of understanding of him..and there would truly be nothing that was good..as well as he would have already made it impossible for men to have any type of relationship and understanding of him. So we do have to have a certain degree of rules and standards that we go by, in order to really perceive what God's ways are.

You would have to go back to 3rd and 4th century AD to get the origins of the English words for God and Devil. God was basically the anglo for good and Devil was the bastardization of two words diabolicus and vile. In a sense they represented the two diametricly opposite poles that could attract a person. Just, healing, helpful, and kind associated with good and unfair, hurting, stingy, and mean are assosiated with evil.

Untangling good and evil is tricky as there are always dualities. Maybe there can be no good without evil. Suppose a serial killer is executed and I might be happy that he is no longer with us and someone else is saddened by it and would consider me a ghoul to rejoice in his death.

Similarly Jesus was put to mortal death and there are those that are happy and sad about that.

Christians are the ones that rejoice in Jesus's mortal death and Spiritual Resurrection as that represents the path to the greatest good and happiness. Still can we ever be truly happy if I believe my happiness is only financed by something else's sadness.

Hi Greg,


I don't think we see pure evil. We see the results of pure evil.
How do you define pure evil? I don't believe, for reasons stated earlier and below, that "pure"--as in that which is carried out to its fullest potential--is possible...but we may be operating on different definitions.


Evil will not destroy itself.
What leads you to this conclusion?

Greetings ak,


I agree that pure evil would work toward its destruction, but this does not necessitate that such evil cannot exist.
I don't see how, if pure evil does in fact lead to its own destruction, this can lead anywhere other than to the impossibility of pure evil per se. My point, again: good and evil have correspondent characteristics which are in antithesis to one another. Here's a set of characteristics which correspond to good: Logicality, unity, profitable, satisfaction and virtuous.

Disharmony, discord, conflict, discontent and immorality are correspondents of evil.

I think it reasonable to say that all goods lead ultimately to greater goods, and to what we may deem to be perhaps the greatest good: life. On the other end of the scale, all those attributes, qualities and characteristics which correspond to evil, can only ever lead to utter chaos and death. The greater the content of these attributes, the closer to self-destruction they logically get. How could evil's correspondents ever lead to a good, or to life?

I'm asking contrinbutors to this thread to focus on good and evil and their correspondents in themselves, apart from particular instances of either in experience. I believe that the type of logical chaos and destruction which evil in and of itself must ultimately lead to is never exemplified in this life because all reality exists in a fragmented mixture of the qualities true and false, the precursors to and raw materials of good and evil. In other words, we never in this lfe actually see pure good or pure evil, e.g., pure as re these in their utmost expressions.

What I'm getting at can be seen inJAG's statement, "Evil can be logical and calculating...just as much as good at times can be deemed a bit illogical." These statements are true because all experience--acts, thoughts, intentions, etc.--are performed in a reality consisting of mixed good and evil. This creates the 'fuzzy logic' effect, contingency, the illusion of randomness. The use of logic is never purely good or evil because all informational content is a mixture of true and false. As black and white dots create shades of gray, so a fragmented mixture of truth and falsity in information creates seeming contradictions such as that logic can be used for evil, and good may seem illogical.

To sum, the arguments about particular instances of good or evil possessing seemingly opposite characteristics leads to one's focus being removed from good in itself and evil in itself.