Oh boy, I'm opening a can of worms, but from the moment our physical body dies will we be in heaven with the Lord? Or will we have to wait until the Resurrection to be there? Are there levels of heaven?

Oh boy, I'm opening a can of worms, but from the moment our physical body dies will we be in heaven with the Lord? Or will we have to wait until the Resurrection to be there?Once we are absent from our bodies, we will be with the Lord. Judgment ensues.


Are there levels of heaven?Not as far as the Bible depicts it. There is a passage in which Paul refers to the "third heaven". This is not a "level" of heaven, but was merely terminology employed by Paul to refer to heaven itself. Scripture refers to three "heavens"... the first being, simply, the sky (i.e., "the birds of heaven"), the second being what we call "space" (i.e., "the stars will dissolve, and the heavens rolls up as a scroll"), and the "third heaven" being the heaven.

That's my opinion, at least, and I find it to be the most satisfactory explanation.

Oh boy, I'm opening a can of worms, but from the moment our physical body dies will we be in heaven with the Lord? Or will we have to wait until the Resurrection to be there? Are there levels of heaven?

Why do you assume we will go to heaven?

Why do you assume we will go to heaven?


do you assume otherwise?

Why do you assume we will go to heaven?...

She's not assuming we will go to heaven...

She's asking if that's the case.

...

She's not assuming we will go to heaven...

She's asking if that's the case.

She said will we be there immediately or will we have to wait.

do you assume otherwise?

Yes, actually I do. :D

Well, I have read what the Bible says on heaven. I personally don't want any sort or riches, just peace, rest, and joy. I just want to be near Christ and God and feel content! Well, I have seen two sides of this debate. One, after physical death the spirit (soul) goes to join the Lord in heaven. Another, there is "soul sleep" where the souls of the believers don't join Him until after He comes back to gather the faithful alive and those that are deceased. Personally, I believe in being present with the Lord after death.

I wish I knew a little more about the process of heaven. If you have to go through a checklist (will God or one of the angels check the book of life?) Will all people be headed towards hell until God pulls a believer up to heaven?

Thanks for putting up with the inquires! I love learning about my Lord and serving Him!:D:D

Well, I have read what the Bible says on heaven. I personally don't want any sort or riches, just peace, rest, and joy. I just want to be near Christ and God and feel content! Well, I have seen two sides of this debate. One, after physical death the spirit (soul) goes to join the Lord in heaven. Another, there is "soul sleep" where the souls of the believers don't join Him until after He comes back to gather the faithful alive and those that are deceased. Personally, I believe in being present with the Lord after death.

I wish I knew a little more about the process of heaven. If you have to go through a checklist (will God or one of the angels check the book of life?) Will all people be headed towards hell until God pulls a believer up to heaven?

Thanks for putting up with the inquires! I love learning about my Lord and serving Him!:D:D

Actually what you describe, I don't think is soul sleep. I don't know precisely what the doctrine is but it is not allow on this forum except I think in the World religions forum. I believe that the soul is alive and conscious after death. However I don't believe we go to heaven. I believe we go to hades (not eternal punishment). Hades is the abode of the dead. If you read Jesus Parable in Luke about Lazarus and the rich man. I believe the righteous go to Abraham's bosom, and the unrighteous into the place of torment.

Once we are absent from our bodies, we will be with the Lord. Judgment ensues.

Not as far as the Bible depicts it. There is a passage in which Paul refers to the "third heaven". This is not a "level" of heaven, but was merely terminology employed by Paul to refer to heaven itself. Scripture refers to three "heavens"... the first being, simply, the sky (i.e., "the birds of heaven"), the second being what we call "space" (i.e., "the stars will dissolve, and the heavens rolls up as a scroll"), and the "third heaven" being the heaven.

That's my opinion, at least, and I find it to be the most satisfactory explanation.

Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once we are absent from our bodies, we will be with the Lord. Judgment ensues.

Not as far as the Bible depicts it. There is a passage in which Paul refers to the "third heaven". This is not a "level" of heaven, but was merely terminology employed by Paul to refer to heaven itself. Scripture refers to three "heavens"... the first being, simply, the sky (i.e., "the birds of heaven"), the second being what we call "space" (i.e., "the stars will dissolve, and the heavens rolls up as a scroll"), and the "third heaven" being the heaven.

That's my opinion, at least, and I find it to be the most satisfactory explanation.
I also agree and if we are with the Lord, where is He? Is He not in heaven? John 14:1-3 The Lord tells us He goes to prepare a place for us in the Father's house and that He will come again and receive us to Himself, so that we may be with Him where He is. When Stephen was martyred he saw the heavens opened and he saw the Lord Jesus standing at the right hand of God. He then called on the Lord and said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!

I also agree and if we are with the Lord, where is He? Is He not in heaven? John 14:1-3 The Lord tells us He goes to prepare a place for us in the Father's house and that He will come again and receive us to Himself, so that we may be with Him where He is. When Stephen was martyred he saw the heavens opened and he saw the Lord Jesus standing at the right hand of God. He then called on the Lord and said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!
If He is still there preparing a place (and must be because He hasn't returned yet), then how can the dead be there already?

all the best...

If He is still there preparing a place (and must be because He hasn't returned yet), then how can the dead be there already?

all the best...
The Word doesn't say that preparing places is the only thing He does there nor does it say He has to return just as soon as He has finished preparing those places either.

Even 2 Cor. 5 tells us that we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Verse 2 tells us that we long to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
Verse 6 tells us that as long as we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
If this is not so, then why in verse 8 then would Paul prefer to be absent from the body if he were not to be immediately with the Lord?

If He is still there preparing a place (and must be because He hasn't returned yet), then how can the dead be there already?

all the best...Why would that which is physically dead be there? It is in the grave waiting to be changed from corruptible to incorruptible.

The Word doesn't say that preparing places is the only thing He does there nor does it say He has to return just as soon as He has finished preparing those places either.


You are right, He is also cleansing the sanctuary for His people to come and worship Him in. and that will happen when He is ready.

Bennie

Actually what you describe, I don't think is soul sleep. I don't know precisely what the doctrine is but it is not allow on this forum except I think in the World religions forum. I believe that the soul is alive and conscious after death. However I don't believe we God to heaven. I believe we go to hades (not eternal punishment). Hades is the abode of the dead. If you read Jesus Parable in Luke about Lazarus and the rich man. I believe the righteous go to Abraham's bosom, and the unrighteous into the place of torment.


Where is Christ today?

In Heaven...


Now when Paul declares and reveals to the NT audience.. that it was his desire to depart and be with Christ...(that is to leave this world) and expire physically... he was betwixt between the two.. desiring to depart or to stay here in the flesh..

now when Paul died.. he went into Abraham's bosom.. according to your post.. but isnt Christ in Heaven? how can Paul be with Christ when he is in Abraham's bosom ...

can you clarify that for the readers of this forum?

Paul also stated that to be

Absent from the body is to be Present with the Lord...

can you clarify how Paul could be in Abrahams Bosom and with Christ at the same time..

Unless there is a belief that Christ is in Abrahams Bosom and not in Heaven...

Oh boy, I'm opening a can of worms, but from the moment our physical body dies will we be in heaven with the Lord? Or will we have to wait until the Resurrection to be there? Are there levels of heaven?Yes, that is where we will go. That is where Stephen expected to go when he died.

Acts 7
54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

So, this shows that his body died and his spirit went to be with the Lord in heaven.

Once we are absent from our bodies, we will be with the Lord. Judgment ensues.

Not as far as the Bible depicts it. There is a passage in which Paul refers to the "third heaven". This is not a "level" of heaven, but was merely terminology employed by Paul to refer to heaven itself. Scripture refers to three "heavens"... the first being, simply, the sky (i.e., "the birds of heaven"), the second being what we call "space" (i.e., "the stars will dissolve, and the heavens rolls up as a scroll"), and the "third heaven" being the heaven.

That's my opinion, at least, and I find it to be the most satisfactory explanation.
The third heaven is Paul talking about Peter at the transfiguration

Where is Christ today?

In Heaven...


Now when Paul declares and reveals to the NT audience.. that it was his desire to depart and be with Christ...(that is to leave this world) and expire physically... he was betwixt between the two.. desiring to depart or to stay here in the flesh..

now when Paul died.. he went into Abraham's bosom.. according to your post.. but isnt Christ in Heaven? how can Paul be with Christ when he is in Abraham's bosom ...

can you clarify that for the readers of this forum?

Paul also stated that to be

Absent from the body is to be Present with the Lord...

can you clarify how Paul could be in Abrahams Bosom and with Christ at the same time..

Unless there is a belief that Christ is in Abrahams Bosom and not in Heaven...


Sure, Paul didn't say to be absent from the body "is" to be present with the Lord, what he said was I am willing rather, to be absent form the body "and" to be present with the Lord. I could say I am willing to be absent from my house "and" to be present in Hawaii. That doesn't mean when I walk out of my door that I am in Hawaii, just that I would rather that were the case. However, we must also look at it from this angle, is Christ omnipresent? Can He not be in heaven and Abraham's bosom at the same time? Remember He said, where to or three are gathered in my name, there I am also. Now we could say that was metaphorical, however, Jesus told the disciples, I am with you always even to the end of the age. So, we must look at how Jesus was in heaven and yet also with each of the apostles at the same time. The only thing that I can figure is that He is omnipresent.

The Word doesn't say that preparing places is the only thing He does there nor does it say He has to return just as soon as He has finished preparing those places either.

Even 2 Cor. 5 tells us that we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Verse 2 tells us that we long to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
Verse 6 tells us that as long as we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
If this is not so, then why in verse 8 then would Paul prefer to be absent from the body if he were not to be immediately with the Lord?


Jesus said, If I go and prepare a place for you, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself". If the disciples went to heaven when they died why did Jesus tell them He was coming back for them? He should have said, you will see me when you get there.

Jesus said, If I go and prepare a place for you, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself". If the disciples went to heaven when they died why did Jesus tell them He was coming back for them? He should have said, you will see me when you get there.

There are several interesting things about this topic that are mind boggling for me. Would love to get some feedback on what others think of these verses.

Jesus also said in John 7:33 "I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come."

Why would he say that? :confused

John 3:13 says that "no one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven-the Son Of Man." So do we have any record of anyone going into heaven AFTER Jesus' return?

Also, many times we say the words, "There will be no more tears in heaven." Most of us who have lost Christian loved ones believe they are no longer crying. But I stumbled onto this verse not too long ago about WHEN there will be no more tears.

Rev 21 - The New Jerusalem
"The first heaven and first earth had passed away..... " I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down OUT OF HEAVEN from God...."Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live WITH them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain..."

The Lord is bringing his Kingdom from heaven with him as well as our reward. Is this the first time in Scripture that we see tears being wiped away here in the New Jerusalem? But what about UP in heaven? Do we have any Scripture that says he will wipe away tears when we die to go live with him up in heaven?

Just some food for thought.

God bless,
Alyssa

The third heaven is Paul talking about Peter at the transfigurationThough, I ask you, what Scriptural evidence you have that this is the case?

This seems to rely purely on speculation, as nothing in the text hints that Paul is speaking about Peter's experience, and in fact, the details Paul gives are against your explanation that Paul was referring to Peter seeing the transfiguration:


Paul says that the person who had the experience would not say what he saw... yet the Gospels plainly describe what happened, and Peter, likewise, speaks of his experience in one of his epistles.
Paul also says that he didn't know if the individual had the vision in his body or in his spirit, yet the Gospels and Peter each make it plainly clear that Peter was "in body" when he saw the transfiguration.
Paul speaks of an individual having a vision... he makes no mention of multiple people having this vision at the same time, and as we know, Peter and John and James saw the transfiguration.

The idea that Paul was referring to Peter seeing the transfiguration falls flat when Scripture is actually examined.

Alyssa----There are several interesting things about this topic that are mind boggling for me. Would love to get some feedback on what others think of these verses.

Jesus also said in John 7:33 "I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come."


Why would he say that?


In context Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Jews. Jesus knew they would not believe. I don't know if this verse implies that only the unbelieving or also includes believers.



Alyssa----John 3:13 says that "no one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven-the Son Of Man." So do we have any record of anyone going into heaven AFTER Jesus' return?

No, we don't. As I said I don't believe we go to heaven when we die, this verse was one of the ones that got me looking into this. Here are several other I have found in my study.

Here is how I understand it.

Hades is in the earth, it is the abode of the dead. There you find Abraham's bosom and the place of torment. Jesus told the disciples, He would return for them, they await Him in Abraham's bosom. All souls go to hades to await the resurrection, Consider,

John 14:3 ( KJV ) 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Notice here Jesus said He was coming back for them, why? So that they could be where He was. He doesn't tell them they will come to where He is.

John 3:13 ( KJV ) 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2:34 ( KJV ) 34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

1 Samuel 28:11-15 ( KJV )11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed;

We see that none are in heaven, we see that Samuel was brought up from his rest. Also Isaiah says,

Isaiah 26:17-21 ( KJV ) 17Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD. 18We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. 19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The early church also believed that all souls go to hades to await the resurrection. So, let's look at where hades is. As we saw, Samuel came up from beneath the earth, and Isaiah says the people will enter their chambers, and,

Isaiah 26:19 ( KJV ) 19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Paul tells us that the dead is in Christ shall rise first.

Peter tells us that Christ preached to the spirits in prison,

1 Peter 3:18-20 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
These were those who were in Noah's day so they were dead, however Peter goes on to tell us,

1 Peter 4:4-6 ( KJV ) 4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

We know when Christ died on the cross that He spent three days in the heart of the earth, We know He went to hades because David and Peter tell us so,

Acts 2:30-31 ( KJV ) 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

So, I think it is abundantly clear that Abraham's bosom is in the earth. Having said that, Jesus told the thief he would be with Him in paradise that day, Paul also mentions being caught up to paradise, and Jesus speaks of the paradise of God. This seems to be a problem. However, if we understand paradise as an adjective and not a noun there is no problem. If we understand paradise as describing a place rather than the name of a place, everything fits nicely. Jesus said to the thief "today you will be with me in paradise" if we understand the word paradise as describing Abraham's bosom, there is no difficulty, just as the paradise of God, the Garden of Eden is described as paradise, I believe Jesus statement was a reference to the garden of Eden, because in Revelation when Jesus references the paradise of God, He has just spoken of the tree of life. The same thing with Paul, paradise as a description of hte third heaven.
Regarding Revelation 6, the souls under the altar, apparently the altar represents the earth and the souls of the martyrs are in effect in Abraham's bosom.

Here is a quote from Victorinus, around 304 AD. a bishop in Syria and a martyr.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7

"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain."] He relates that he saw under the altar of God, that is, under the earth, the souls of them that were slain. For both heaven and earth are called God’s altar, as saith the law, commanding in the symbolical form of the truth two altars to be made,—a golden one within, and a brazen one without. But we perceive that the golden altar is thus called heaven, by the testimony that our Lord bears to it; for He says, "When thou bringest thy gift to the altar" (assuredly our gifts are the prayers which we offer), "and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar." (Matt. 5:23, 34) Assuredly prayers ascend to heaven. Therefore heaven is understood to be the golden altar which was within; for the priests also were accustomed to enter once in the year—as they who had the anointing—to the golden altar, the Holy Spirit signifying that Christ should do this once for all. As the golden altar is acknowledged to be heaven, so also by the brazen altar is understood the earth, under which is the Hades,—a region withdrawn from punishments and fires, and a place of repose for the saints, wherein indeed the righteous are seen and heard by the wicked, but they cannot be carried across to them. He who sees all things would have us to know that these saints, therefore—that is, the souls of the slain—are asking for vengeance for their blood, that is, of their body, from those that dwell upon the earth; but because in the last time, moreover, the reward of the saints will be perpetual, and the condemnation of the wicked shall come, it was told them to wait. And for a solace to their body, there were given unto each of them white robes. They received, says he, white robes, that is, the gift of the Holy Spirit.





Alyssa----Also, many times we say the words, "There will be no more tears in heaven." Most of us who have lost Christian loved ones believe they are no longer crying. But I stumbled onto this verse not too long ago about WHEN there will be no more tears.

Rev 21 - The New Jerusalem
"The first heaven and first earth had passed away..... " I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down OUT OF HEAVEN from God...."Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live WITH them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain..."

The Lord is bringing his Kingdom from heaven with him as well as our reward. Is this the first time in Scripture that we see tears being wiped away here in the New Jerusalem? But what about UP in heaven? Do we have any Scripture that says he will wipe away tears when we die to go live with him up in heaven?


I have found no Scripture that says we are going to live in heaven. Notice the above when the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven God said He would dwell with man, He didn't say man would dwell with Him. Also consider Paul's writing to the Romans about the Creation being restored, What need is there for a restored creation if we are going to live in heaven? The early church also wrote quite a bit about this subject and they all say we go into hades to await the resurrection.

Hades is in the earth, it is the abode of the dead. There you find Abraham's bosom and the place of torment. Jesus told the disciples, He would return for them, they await Him in Abraham's bosom. All souls go to hades to await the resurrection, Consider,

John 14:3 ( KJV ) 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Notice here Jesus said He was coming back for them, why? So that they could be where He was. He doesn't tell them they will come to where He is.


Yes, and Jesus also said he was bringing our reward with Him. It doesn't say we are going up there to get it... not that I know of.



John 3:13 ( KJV ) 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2:34 ( KJV ) 34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,


And this is what is so interesting. If there is no verse that says we go to heaven when we die, then why is it such a popular teaching today? These above verses say that NO MAN has ascended to heaven.




We see that none are in heaven, we see that Samuel was brought up from his rest.


There are many verses in the Old Testament that speak of going down into the grave and not being able to praise the Lord. This was one of David's concerns. He wanted to live so that he could praise the Lord.

Psalm 115:17
"It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down into silence;

Psalm 88:10
"Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead raise up and praise you?"

Psalm 71:2
"you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up."

Psalm 49:15
"But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself."

When will we see his face?

Psalm 17:15
"And I - in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisified with seeing your likeness."

Job 19:25
"I know my Redeemer lives, and that in the end HE WILL STAND UPON THE EARTH. And after my skin as been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see Him with my own eyes..."

[QUOTE]
Peter tells us that Christ preached to the spirits in prison,

I guess my question is; will we be conscious? These verses I listed above seem to say No. But we know Messiah preached to the spirits in prison. But what am I missing? Also, we are told when we die that the spirit returns to the Lord and the dust returns to the ground (Ecclesiastes 12:7). The spirit is the breath of life and all living things have the breath of life and the breath of life returns to God. What does that leave in Hades? It would seem it is only the dust.

If God is dwelling in heaven and our spirit returns to him, then that means he is not below the earth. I realize God is omnipresent but our spirit is returning to heaven (the place we will not be). I know I am missing something, and I am suspecting you have a clear explanation. :)


The early church also believed that all souls go to hades to await the resurrection.

I am very fascinated by the early church and use them as a reference for No Remarriage (one of my beliefs.) Would you by chance, have a list or a reference of who all believed this way? I know you listed one, but you said "they all say we go into hades to await the Resurrection." So the early church as a whole did not believe in heaven going? Could you give references if it is not a problem?



I have found no Scripture that says we are going to live in heaven. Notice the above when the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven God said He would dwell with man, He didn't say man would dwell with Him.

Oh, I agree, which is why I am thankful that you spelled all of this out for me. I am interested to look into it more. It makes a lot more sense considering we do not have one single verse in Scripture that says we go to heaven when we die... at least none that I know of.

Thanks a bunch and I look forward to your response. :)

God bless,
Alyssa

When the believing thief died on the cross next to Jesus, He told him, "today you will be with me in paradise".

I think that explains it all.

Unless you want to complicate the issue and claim that paradise is "hades" (as was posted), but as for me, I prefer to keep it simple and not try to split scripture or dream up some alternate reality than what's actually there.

The Word of God is sharp and powerful, and I think It stands on Its own quite well. :hmm:

Jesus said, If I go and prepare a place for you, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself". If the disciples went to heaven when they died why did Jesus tell them He was coming back for them? He should have said, you will see me when you get there.
That would be a good question and if the answer is that the disciples didn't go to heaven when they died, then what would that make Paul's statement that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord? A Lie? Or is Paul saying that the Lord is NOT in heaven because if we are with the Lord when we are absent from the body and we are not in heaven, then the Lord is where ever we are and if that is not heaven then is the Lord not in heaven either? To not be in the body is clearly a reference to death of the body.

There are several interesting things about this topic that are mind boggling for me. Would love to get some feedback on what others think of these verses.

Jesus also said in John 7:33 "I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come."

Why would he say that? :confused



Just some food for thought.

God bless,
Alyssa
One reason He said this in context is that the ones He was speaking with were the Pharisees. Remember the Pharisees were the ones who would not believe in Him. They didn't believe He was the Son of God nor the Messiah. They didn't believe in Him. People who do not believe in Christ are not saved and will not go where Jesus is, which in this case is to the Father and we know the Father is in heaven.

There are several interesting things about this topic that are mind boggling for me. Would love to get some feedback on what others think of these verses.



Also, many times we say the words, "There will be no more tears in heaven." Most of us who have lost Christian loved ones believe they are no longer crying. But I stumbled onto this verse not too long ago about WHEN there will be no more tears.

Rev 21 - The New Jerusalem
"The first heaven and first earth had passed away..... " I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down OUT OF HEAVEN from God...."Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live WITH them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain..."

The Lord is bringing his Kingdom from heaven with him as well as our reward. Is this the first time in Scripture that we see tears being wiped away here in the New Jerusalem? But what about UP in heaven? Do we have any Scripture that says he will wipe away tears when we die to go live with him up in heaven?

Just some food for thought.

God bless,
Alyssa
Not sure about tears wiped away in heaven, but the souls must be there. Take for instance, Revelation 6:9-11 John saw the souls of people who had been slain and they were underneath the the altar. Where is the alter? Was it in heaven where John saw these sights? They were also able to cry out with loud voices seeking revenge on their blood. The Lord told them to wait a little longer. Clearly they were in a different place than on the earth because they wanted to know how long it would be before their blood was revenged and it was to be so on "those who dwell on the earth". Seems these souls were under an alter that was not on the earth.

Something else interesting about Stephan is that when he saw the heavens open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God, while he was being stoned he called on the Lord and said Lord Jesus, receive my spirit! That tells me that he saw Jesus at God's right hand and believed his spirit would be received by the Lord there.

In Revelation when the two prophets were slain a loud voice from heaven told them to go up there. Then in a cloud they went up to heaven. Were the witnesses (2 Prophets) not men? Did they not die? Did they not have "dead bodies"? And yet, they went up to heaven!

A word that the Lord gave after answering the question of marriage after death is a verse that really amazes me. Matt. 22:29-32
The Lord told them that they were not only mistaken to think there is marriage in the resurrection, they were also mistaken about the resurrection of the dead itself. One has to be dead to be resurrected, right? Well, Jesus said that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living and He said this right after He said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As we know at the time Jesus said this, Abraham, Issac and Jacob had died. Surely He didn't mean that God was the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob only while they were still alive and not when they died too? I believe it has something to do with believers having eternal life? Opps better stop. I'm getting off on a tangent as they say.

Something else interesting about Stephan is that when he saw the heavens open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God, while he was being stoned he called on the Lord and said Lord Jesus, receive my spirit! That tells me that he saw Jesus at God's right hand and believed his spirit would be received by the Lord there.


Thats a great post.. Yes...

Christ is in Heaven.. Stephan before being stoned saw the Lord Jesus standing on the Right Hand of God.. and he said..
Jesus Hold not this sin against them.. and recieve my spirit...

Did Stephan go to be with Jesus? or did he go to another place...


To be Absent from the Body is to be Present with the Lord...

and we can say this with Confidence.. those who Know the Truth.. and know Him... that is our Hope... we are not separated from Him at death...

present with the Lord.......... in the Greek language...

Present: to be among one's own people, dwell in one's own country, stay at home

present with who??? The Lord.. where is He at?? Heaven...


Listen to Paul's exhortation in Thessalonians here...

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who died for us, that, whether we wake(alive) or sleep(physical death), we should live together with HIM.

Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

obviously when Paul was writing this there were some who were perpetuating false doctrine... Paul sets the record straight under the Direction of the Holy Ghost..... he writes this to make sure believers will not be decieved by the false doctrine.. Paul is writing to the Thessalonians here because some have spread false doctrine back then about the 'coming' of the Lord.. and that it had already happened and they missed the Resurrection... edifying and comforting one another .. In Spirit and In Truth... that will strengthen the 'bonds' between believers.. to build up.. thats what it means to edify.. strengthen one's faith and belief.. against false teaching and doctrine that is always and I say always trying to infiltrate Simple Faith and the Truth... that beguilement of the Truth.. which is so Subtle.. and done by none other than the 'opposer of the Truth' he who never abode in the Truth..

Those days are not much different than today with all the ideas out there..about the Resurrection... life after physcial death and so on..

Alyssa---Yes, and Jesus also said he was bringing our reward with Him. It doesn't say we are going up there to get it... not that I know of.

And this is what is so interesting. If there is no verse that says we go to heaven when we die, then why is it such a popular teaching today? These above verses say that NO MAN has ascended to heaven.


The doctrine is known as the intermediate state, it is the belief that all souls go into hades at death to await the resurrection. It is believed that there are two sections as told in Jesus parable, there is Abraham's bosom and he place to torment. For the first 225 years or so there was not real problem in understanding this, however over the next centuries the people began to believe that they could pay for their sins after death by the amount of time spent in Hades, they also believed that a price could be paid to reduce this amount of time. When hte reformers came along they rejected this doctrine and went back to the intermediate state ( one of the things they did right). However, I believe it was the Puritans, in their opposition to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, who began to teach that we go to heaven when we die. If you study this you will find that this is recent believe in the church and was not taught by the early Church. The funny thing is this was also the belief of the Gnostic, they believed when they were saved and died they would ascend to be with God.



Alyssa---There are many verses in the Old Testament that speak of going down into the grave and not being able to praise the Lord. This was one of David's concerns. He wanted to live so that he could praise the Lord.
Psalm 115:17
"It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down into silence;

Psalm 88:10
"Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead raise up and praise you?"

Psalm 71:2
"you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up."

Psalm 49:15
"But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself."

When will we see his face?
Psalm 17:15
"And I - in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisified with seeing your likeness."

Job 19:25
"I know my Redeemer lives, and that in the end HE WILL STAND UPON THE EARTH. And after my skin as been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see Him with my own eyes..."
Yes, I had not noticed these, especially Job 19:25, as it is one of my favorite verses.


I guess my question is; will we be conscious? These verses I listed above seem to say No. But we know Messiah preached to the spirits in prison. But what am I missing? Also, we are told when we die that the spirit returns to the Lord and the dust returns to the ground (Ecclesiastes 12:7). The spirit is the breath of life and all living things have the breath of life and the breath of life returns to God. What does that leave in Hades? It would seem it is only the dust.

If God is dwelling in heaven and our spirit returns to him, then that means he is not below the earth. I realize God is omnipresent but our spirit is returning to heaven (the place we will not be). I know I am missing something, and I am suspecting you have a clear explanation.

I believe it is God's omnipresence. Consider what David said.

Psalms 139:8 ( KJV ) 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Hell here is Hades


I am very fascinated by the early church and use them as a reference for No Remarriage (one of my beliefs.) Would you by chance, have a list or a reference of who all believed this way? I know you listed one, but you said "they all say we go into hades to await the Resurrection." So the early church as a whole did not believe in heaven going? Could you give references if it is not a problem?

It is believed this is the Clement who traveled with Paul and is mentioned in Philippians.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Clement of Rome AD. 96
Chap. L.—Let Us Pray to Be Thought Worthy of Love. Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, "Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves." (Isa. 26:20) Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin 19 the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile." (Ps. 32:1, 2) This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ante-Nicene Fathers,
Tertullian, A. D. 190 A treatise on the Soul.
Conclusion. Points Postponed. All Souls Are Kept in Hades Until the Resurrection, Anticipating Their Ultimate Misery or Bliss.
All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? (It is true, whether) you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich. And now, having postponed some stray questions for this part of my work, I will notice them in this suitable place, and then come to a close. Why, then, cannot you suppose that the soul undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgment, in a certain anticipation either of gloom or of glory? You reply: Because in the judgment of God its matter ought to be sure and safe, nor should there be any inkling beforehand of the award of His sentence; and also because (the soul) ought to be covered first by its vestment of the restored flesh, which, as the partner of its actions, should be also a sharer in its recompense. What, then, is to take place in that interval? Shall we sleep? But souls do not sleep even when men are alive: it is indeed the business of bodies to sleep, to which also belongs death itself, no less than its mirror and counterfeit sleep.
.
Irenaeus, A.D. 180 Book 5 Against Heresies
The Preservation of Our Bodies Is Confirmed by the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ: The Souls of the Saints During the Intermediate Period Are in a State of Expectation of That Time When They Shall Receive Their Perfect and Consummated Glory.
If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day "in the lower parts of the earth;" (Eph. 4:9) then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples, (John 20:20, 27) He thus ascended to the Father;—[if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that "the lower parts" refer to this world of ours, but that their tuner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord "went away in the midst of the shadow of death," (Ps. 23:4) where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God. "For no disciple is above the Master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his Master." (Luke 6:40) As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by God and foretold by the prophets, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege].

Justin Martyr, A.D. 160 Discourse with Trypho
Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you. For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistae, Meristae, Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Justin Martyr A.D. 160
so likewise Christ declared that ignorance was not on His side, but on theirs, who thought that He was not the Christ, but fancied they would put Him to death, and that He, like some common mortal, would remain in Hades.

Continued...

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2

Clement of Alexandria. A.D. 195
And, as I think, the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save; which accordingly He also did by drawing to salvation those who became willing, by the preaching [of the Gospel], to believe on Him, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was either to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there; since God’s punishments 491 are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance than the death of a sinner; (Ezek. 18:23, 32, 33:11, etc.) and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly, because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh. If, then, He preached only to the Jews, who wanted the knowledge and faith of the Saviour, it is plain that, since God is no respecter of persons, the apostles also, as here, so there preached the Gospel to those of the heathen who were ready for conversion. And it is well said by the Shepherd, "They went down with them therefore into the water, and again ascended. But these descended alive, and again ascended alive. But those who had fallen asleep, descended dead, but ascended alive. Further the Gospel (Matt. 27:52) says, "that many bodies of those that slept arose,"—plainly as having been translated to a better state. There took place, then, a universal movement and translation through the economy of the Saviour.

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Hippolytus A.D. 205
1. And this is the passage regarding demons. But now we must speak of Hades, in which the souls both of the righteous and the unrighteous are detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there. This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, distributing according to each one’s deeds the temporary punishments for (different) characters. And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, a lake of unquenchable fire, into which we suppose no one has ever yet been cast; for it is prepared against the day determined by God, in which one sentence of righteous judgment shall be justly applied to all. And the unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), shall be sentenced to this endless punishment. But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and un-fading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host. And when those who are conducted by the angels appointed unto the souls have passed through this gate, they do not proceed on one and the same way; but the righteous, being conducted in the light toward the right, and being hymned by the angels stationed at the place, are brought to a locality full of light. And there the righteous from the beginning dwell, not ruled by necessity, but enjoying always the contemplation of the blessings which are in their view, and delighting themselves with the expectation of others ever new, and deeming those ever better than these. And that place brings no toils to them. There, there is neither fierce heat, nor cold, nor thorn; but the face of the fathers and the righteous is seen to be always smiling, as they wait for the rest and eternal revival in heaven which succeed this location. And we call it by the name Abraham’s bosom. But the unrighteous are dragged toward the left by angels who are ministers of punishment, and they go of their own accord no longer, but are dragged by force as prisoners. And the angels appointed over them send them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower parts. And when they are brought there, those appointed to that service drag them on to the confines or hell. And those who are so near hear incessantly the agitation, and feel the hot smoke. And when that vision is so near, as they see the terrible and excessively glowing spectacle of the fire, they shudder in horror at the expectation of the future judgment, (as if they were) already feeling the power of their punishment. And again, where they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they are also punished there. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst, so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to pass it, nor any of the unrighteous dare to cross it. 2. Thus far, then, on the subject of Hades, in which the souls of all are detained until the time which God has determined;
Notice here that Hippolytus seems to thing that heaven awaits hte believer after the resurrection, however I don't know that I agree with that. Even so, he still acknowleges that soul are deteained in Hades until the resurrection.

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4
Origen A.D. 225
23. And perhaps as those here, dying according to the death common to all, are, in consequence of the deeds done here, so arranged as to obtain different places according to the proportion of their sins, if they should be deemed worthy of the place called Hades; so those there dying, so to speak, descend into this Hades, being judged deserving of different abodes—better or worse—throughout all this space of earth, and (of being descended) from parents of different kinds, so that an Israelite may sometimes fall among Scythians, and an Egyptian descend into Judea.

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Novatian A.D. 235
And truly, what lies beneath the earth is not itself void of distributed and arranged powers. For there is a place whither the souls of the just and the unjust are taken, conscious of the anticipated dooms of fixture judgment;

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6
Methodius A.D. 290
If, then, any one of those who have fallen asleep is recorded as having appeared, in the same way he has been seen in the form which he had when he was in the flesh. Besides, when Samuel appeared, it is clear that, being seen, he was clothed in a body;29IX-3-29 and this must especially be admitted, if we are pressed by arguments which prove that the essence of the soul is incorporeal, and is manifested by itself.30IX-3-30 But the rich man in torment, and the poor man who was comforted in the bosom of Abraham, are said, the one to be punished in Hades, and the other to be comforted in Abraham’s bosom, before the appearing of the Saviour, and before the end of the world, and therefore before the resurrection;

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7
Lactantius A.D. 304-313
Nor, however, let any one imagine that souls are immediately judged after death. For all are detained in one and a common place of confinement, until the arrival of the time in which the great Judge shall make an investigation of their deserts.134I-1g-134 Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment.

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6
Alexander of Alexandria A.D. 324
3. But when man afterwards by his fall had inclined to death, it was necessary that that form should be recreated anew to salvation by the same Artificer. For the form indeed lay rotting in the ground; but that inspiration which had been as the breath of life, was detained separate from the body in a dark place, which is called Hades. There was, therefore, a division of the soul from the body; it was banished ad inferos, whilst the latter was resolved into dust;

Let me recommend, "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs", By David Bercot, you will find these and many other quotes.

If you meesage me I can give you a link to a site where you can purchase early church teaching in audio form inexpensively.

That would be a good question and if the answer is that the disciples didn't go to heaven when they died, then what would that make Paul's statement that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord? A Lie? Or is Paul saying that the Lord is NOT in heaven because if we are with the Lord when we are absent from the body and we are not in heaven, then the Lord is where ever we are and if that is not heaven then is the Lord not in heaven either? To not be in the body is clearly a reference to death of the body.

First let's look at what Paul said,

2 Corinthians 5:8 ( KJV ) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

He didn't say to absent from the body "is" to be present with the Lord,
He said, I am willing rather to be absent from the body "and" be present with the Lord.

There is a big difference in those two statements. The first means that when one is absent from the body they are present with the Lord. However that is "not" what Paul said. He said I am "willing rather" to be absent from the body "and" be present with the Lord. He is saying He would rather be out of his body and present with the Lord, he says that is what He would like, that doesn't mean it will happen. I could say I am willing rather to be out of my house and present in Hawaii, that does not mean when I walk out my front door, I am going to be in Hawaii. It only means, I wish that were the case.

Jesus said, where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am also, He said to the disciples, I am with you always, even til the of hte age. If we understand this literally then we must come to the conclusion that He is Omnipresent as the Father is. Consider David's statement,

Psalms 139:8 ( KJV ) 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Something else interesting about Stephan is that when he saw the heavens open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God, while he was being stoned he called on the Lord and said Lord Jesus, receive my spirit! That tells me that he saw Jesus at God's right hand and believed his spirit would be received by the Lord there.

Yes, but receive my Spirit does not mean he went to heaven. If you read it with the understanding that one goes to heaven that is hte logical conclusion one comes to. However, If you understand the the soul of the righteous goes to Abraham's bosom and Christ is there, you would understand that Stephen would be received in Abraham's bosom. If you study this doctrine you will find that it is not an old doctrine in the church, Even the reformers, Calvin and Luther believed that souls were detained in hades until the resurrection. The idea that Christians go to heaven was brought into the church by the Puritans.

Here is Calvin from his institutes.

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

Moreover, to pry curiously into their intermediate state is neither lawful nor expedient (see Calv. Psychopannychia). Many greatly torment themselves with discussing what place they occupy, and whether or not they already enjoy celestial glory. It is foolish and rash to inquire into hidden things, farther than God permits us to know. Scripture, after telling that Christ is present with them, and receives them into paradise (John 12:32), and that they are comforted, while the souls of the reprobate suffer the torments which they have merited goes no farther. What teacher or doctor will reveal to us what God has concealed? As to the place of abode, the question is not less futile and inept, since we know that the dimension of the soul is not the same as that of the body. When the abode of blessed spirits is designated as the bosom of Abraham, it is plain that, on quitting this pilgrimage, they are received by the common father of the faithful, who imparts to them the fruit of his faith. Still, since Scripture uniformly enjoins us to look with expectation to the advent of Christ, and delays the crown of glory till that period, let us be contented with the limits divinely prescribed to us, viz., that the souls of the righteous, after their warfare is ended, obtain blessed rest where in joy they wait for the fruition of promised glory, and that thus the final result is suspended till Christ the Redeemer appear. There can be no doubt that the reprobate have the same doom as that which Jude assigns to the devils, they are “reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”

Calvin agreed with the early church here, this is as late as the 1500's. The heavenly destiny idea came from Augustine but was rejected by the church, it was later picked up after Calvin, most like the Puritans

In Revelation when the two prophets were slain a loud voice from heaven told them to go up there. Then in a cloud they went up to heaven. Were the witnesses (2 Prophets) not men? Did they not die? Did they not have "dead bodies"? And yet, they went up to heaven!

A word that the Lord gave after answering the question of marriage after death is a verse that really amazes me. Matt. 22:29-32
The Lord told them that they were not only mistaken to think there is marriage in the resurrection, they were also mistaken about the resurrection of the dead itself. One has to be dead to be resurrected, right? Well, Jesus said that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living and He said this right after He said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As we know at the time Jesus said this, Abraham, Issac and Jacob had died. Surely He didn't mean that God was the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob only while they were still alive and not when they died too? I believe it has something to do with believers having eternal life? Opps better stop. I'm getting off on a tangent as they say.

Yes, the Prophets were men, however, Revelation is not teaching doctrine, it is giving Prophecy. If we use an event that is not teaching doctrine to teach doctrine, we get into trouble. using this line of reasoning, one could say that all Christians will be caught up to the third heaven as Paul was, or we could say that all Christians are going to have end time revelation as John had. We can only apply to doctrine what the Scriptures teach as doctrine. When Paul says we are buried with Him in baptism and raise to walk in newness of life, he is teaching doctrine. So, we know that this applies to all Christians.

Regarding the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, I believe they are alive, and awaiting the resurrection in Abraham's bosom.

First let's look at what Paul said,

2 Corinthians 5:8 ( KJV ) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

He didn't say to absent from the body "is" to be present with the Lord,
He said, I am willing rather to be absent from the body "and" be present with the Lord.

There is a big difference in those two statements. The first means that when one is absent from the body they are present with the Lord. However that is "not" what Paul said. He said I am "willing rather" to be absent from the body "and" be present with the Lord. He is saying He would rather be out of his body and present with the Lord, he says that is what He would like, that doesn't mean it will happen. I could say I am willing rather to be out of my house and present in Hawaii, that does not mean when I walk out my front door, I am going to be in Hawaii. It only means, I wish that were the case.Let's take a closer look at the passage.

2 Cor 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You quoted verse 8, but you can't understand what it means without also reading verse 6. In verse 6, he flat out says that being at home in the body is to be absent from the Lord. Why would he have said that if we are also absent from the Lord when we are absent from the body? We have the Spirit dwelling in us, so had to be talking in terms of not being in His very presence, which we should know would mean we'd have to be in heaven for that to be the case. If we are still absent from the Lord when we physically die, then why would Paul say that he'd rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord instead of still being present and alive in his body?

What he is really saying there is that he'd rather be physically dead so that he would then be spiritually present with the Lord than to still be physically alive but not in the Lord's presence in heaven. It's the same concept he talked about elsewhere.

Philippians 1
20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

If nothing much changes when we die as you seem to be claiming then why did he say to die is gain? Notice verse 23. He is implying there that he would like to depart (physically die) so that he could be with Christ in heaven, which he says is far better than still being physically alive here. But, he's torn because he knows he's still needed on earth. He also implies in verse 23 that to depart or physically die would result in being with Christ. That's why he could say earlier that to die is gain.

If it would only be until potentially much later (at the resurrection) that he would actually be with Christ then the things he said there would not make any sense. Why wouldn't he just want to stay around as long as possible if he'd have to wait to be with Christ whether he died or not? I believe he is clearly implying that he expected that he would be with Christ immediately after he physically died.

Regarding the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, I believe they are alive, and awaiting the resurrection in Abraham's bosom.

Thanks for your generous posts, Butch5. I really appreciate it!! I will read it again in a little while.

So you do believe the one who are in hades/Paradise awaiting the Resurrection are conscious? So then if they are, what do we do with all of the verses that I mentioned earlier that talk about the dead not being able to praise the Lord from the grave? It says they go down to silence.

What says you?

God bless,
Alyssa

Let's take a closer look at the passage.

2 Cor 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You quoted verse 8, but you can't understand what it means without also reading verse 6. In verse 6, he flat out says that being at home in the body is to be absent from the Lord. Why would he have said that if we are also absent from the Lord when we are absent from the body? We have the Spirit dwelling in us, so had to be talking in terms of not being in His very presence, which we should know would mean we'd have to be in heaven for that to be the case. If we are still absent from the Lord when we physically die, then why would Paul say that he'd rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord instead of still being present and alive in his body?

What he is really saying there is that he'd rather be physically dead so that he would then be spiritually present with the Lord than to still be physically alive but not in the Lord's presence in heaven. It's the same concept he talked about elsewhere.

Philippians 1
20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

If nothing much changes when we die as you seem to be claiming then why did he say to die is gain? Notice verse 23. He is implying there that he would like to depart (physically die) so that he could be with Christ in heaven, which he says is far better than still being physically alive here. But, he's torn because he knows he's still needed on earth. He also implies in verse 23 that to depart or physically die would result in being with Christ. That's why he could say earlier that to die is gain.

If it would only be until potentially much later (at the resurrection) that he would actually be with Christ then the things he said there would not make any sense. Why wouldn't he just want to stay around as long as possible if he'd have to wait to be with Christ whether he died or not? I believe he is clearly implying that he expected that he would be with Christ immediately after he physically died.

Hi John 146 :)

You have some good arguments. But I think both sides have good arguments, that is why this subject perplexes me!

When do you think we will "see" the Lord? When we die and go to heaven? Or at the Resurrection?

Psalm 17:15
"And I - in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisified with seeing your likeness."

Job 19:25
"I know my Redeemer lives, and that in the end HE WILL STAND UPON THE EARTH. And after my skin as been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see Him with my own eyes..."
God bless you,
Alyssa

Let's take a closer look at the passage.

2 Cor 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You quoted verse 8, but you can't understand what it means without also reading verse 6. In verse 6, he flat out says that being at home in the body is to be absent from the Lord. Why would he have said that if we are also absent from the Lord when we are absent from the body? We have the Spirit dwelling in us, so had to be talking in terms of not being in His very presence, which we should know would mean we'd have to be in heaven for that to be the case. If we are still absent from the Lord when we physically die, then why would Paul say that he'd rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord instead of still being present and alive in his body?

What he is really saying there is that he'd rather be physically dead so that he would then be spiritually present with the Lord than to still be physically alive but not in the Lord's presence in heaven. It's the same concept he talked about elsewhere.

Philippians 1
20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

If nothing much changes when we die as you seem to be claiming then why did he say to die is gain? Notice verse 23. He is implying there that he would like to depart (physically die) so that he could be with Christ in heaven, which he says is far better than still being physically alive here. But, he's torn because he knows he's still needed on earth. He also implies in verse 23 that to depart or physically die would result in being with Christ. That's why he could say earlier that to die is gain.

If it would only be until potentially much later (at the resurrection) that he would actually be with Christ then the things he said there would not make any sense. Why wouldn't he just want to stay around as long as possible if he'd have to wait to be with Christ whether he died or not? I believe he is clearly implying that he expected that he would be with Christ immediately after he physically died.

John,

Are you following all of my posts? I didn't say one has to wait until the resurrection to be with Christ. In the verse you are questioning, all I did was point out that the verse does not say to be absent from the body "is" to be present with the Lord. I didn't say a person was not present with the Lord after death, I merely pointed out that this verse does not say that.

If you have read my posts you know that I said, I believe it is that Jesus is omnipresent and that is how one can be with the Lord and not be in heaven.

Since soul sleep is strictly to be discussed in World Religions (it is a Jehovah's Witness / Seventh Day Adventist Doctrine), I'm moving this thread to that forum.

Since soul sleep is strictly to be discussed in World Religions (it is a Jehovah's Witness / Seventh Day Adventist Doctrine), I'm moving this thread to that forum.

That's what I said at the begining, how is this soul sleep? I don't really know the doctrine, I have not studied it.

Take a minute and study it...and let share with us where and why you differ from it and reject it...because I too have read your posts before and thought "soul sleep".

That might help clear things up some.

From a WR subforum perpsective, however, the viewpoint is that the soul/spirit/immaterial aspect of a person at death goes consciously to be with the Lord to await Resurrection day.

It does not lie unconscious in the tomb until Resurrection day.

Any view otherwise, is a variant of soul-sleep and against the rules to promote.

Take a minute and study it...and let share with us where and why you differ from it and reject it...because I too have read your posts before and thought "soul sleep".

That might help clear things up some.

From a WR subforum perpsective, however, the viewpoint is that the soul/spirit/immaterial aspect of a person at death goes consciously to be with the Lord to await Resurrection day.

It does not lie unconscious in the tomb until Resurrection day.

Any view otherwise, is a variant of soul-sleep and against the rules to promote.

Why, when the teaching that we go to heaven did not enter the church until around 1600. Even the reformers didn't preach that we go to heaven when we die. Here is a quote from Calvin,

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

Moreover, to pry curiously into their intermediate state is neither lawful nor expedient (see Calv. Psychopannychia). Many greatly torment themselves with discussing what place they occupy, and whether or not they already enjoy celestial glory. It is foolish and rash to inquire into hidden things, farther than God permits us to know. Scripture, after telling that Christ is present with them, and receives them into paradise (John 12:32), and that they are comforted, while the souls of the reprobate suffer the torments which they have merited goes no farther. What teacher or doctor will reveal to us what God has concealed? As to the place of abode, the question is not less futile and inept, since we know that the dimension of the soul is not the same as that of the body. When the abode of blessed spirits is designated as the bosom of Abraham, it is plain that, on quitting this pilgrimage, they are received by the common father of the faithful, who imparts to them the fruit of his faith. Still, since Scripture uniformly enjoins us to look with expectation to the advent of Christ, and delays the crown of glory till that period, let us be contented with the limits divinely prescribed to us, viz., that the souls of the righteous, after their warfare is ended, obtain blessed rest where in joy they wait for the fruition of promised glory, and that thus the final result is suspended till Christ the Redeemer appear. There can be no doubt that the reprobate have the same doom as that which Jude assigns to the devils, they are “reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”

If that is not enough, consider this, Clement of Rome, he traveled with and was a companion of the apostle Paul.


Philippians 4:3 ( KJV ) 3And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

This is what He said,

Clement of Rome AD. 96

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Chap. L.—Let Us Pray to Be Thought Worthy of Love. Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, “Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves.” (Isa. 26:20) Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin 19 the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile.” (Ps. 32:1, 2) This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That comes from a man who was Paul's companion. How far back can you trace the teaching that we go to heaven when we die???

Why, when the teaching that we go to heaven did not enter the church until around 1600. Even the reformers didn't preach that we go to heaven when we die. Here is a quote from Calvin,:rofl::rofl::rofl:

1600? Calvin?
:bounce:

The cure for death is resurrection.

Hi Bick!

Thanks for your post! :)

When did you change your mind on this doctrine? I noticed back in August that you posted on a "Heaven" thread.

I have many questions that wonderful Christians who believe in "heaven-going" cannot answer. But there are questions for the other side as well that can't seem to be answered. It leaves me puzzled.

One thing I know. There is not one single verse in the bible that says we go to heaven when we die. But yet, I cannot get around Paul's being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord... or "to live is Christ, to die is gain...." or when he was divided over wanting to remain with his friends or depart and be with the Lord.

On the other hand, there are numerous, numerous verses throughout the Old Testament and even in the New that *appear* to contradict these (couple of verses) used to support heaven-going.

As I have already posted, David and Job knew they would go to the grave and that the dead know nothing at all, nor can they praise the Lord from there. Their whole hope was the Resurrection of the Dead. Job is clear that he will see his Savior when his Savior stands on the EARTH (not in heaven) on the Last Day.

Job 19:25
"I know my Redeemer lives, and that in the end HE WILL STAND UPON THE EARTH. And after my skin as been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see Him with my own eyes..."
Apostle Paul even was on trial for the defense of the Resurrection!

From what I have studied, the spirit is the breath of life... and as you said, the soul is the mind will and emotions. I do not see how these two are the same thing... and YET...there are times when they DO represent the same thing. (Interesting).

When Stephen died, he committed his spirit (breath of life) to the Lord. Was this only his spirit or was it also his soul? And if it was both, then how do we explain Job and David's verses about how the dead cannot praise the Lord?

Also, I have many questions... but these will suffice for now.

1.) We hear there will be "no more tears in heaven," and yet, the first time we see mention of this is in Revelation when the New Jerusalem is brought to earth FROM heaven.

a.) So heaven-goers, will there be no more tears in heaven when you die? And if so, where is this verse? Because here it shows this won't happen until after the Resurrection in the Kingdom of Heaven.
2.) We talk about how glorious it will be when we get to heaven and how perfect everything will be in the presence of the Lord, and yet, somehow we will still be longing for "something more"....as in our new bodies and our new home.

a.) How could we possibly long for anything more if we are in the "presence of the Lord??" This never made any sense to me at all.
3.) If we are in heaven after we die, we are told we are prasing the Lord, but yet Job and David say this isn't so. If we are praising him, can we see him?

a.) The references for WHEN we will SEE the Lord for the first time is on the Last Day (according to Job) and Revelation 22:4 in the New Jerusalem.
4.) Last point, though I have many others... I hear preachers say all the time that we will receive our reward when we die and go to heaven.

a.) Where is this verse? Because according to Rev 22:12 Christ tells us that he is COMING soon and his reward is WITH him, and he will give to everyone according to what they have done.

There are so many other questions I have that people who believe in heaven-going cannot answer. I would LOVE for someone in this Thread, perhaps a Mod, or anyone to give an answer to these few questions I have.

My mind is not made up either way. But I know to believe in heaven-going or any other doctrine, Scripture has to harmonize and these verses of Paul's that people use to support heaven-going do not line up with all of the many, many other verses that say otherwise.

I do know one thing...My hope is the same as Job's, David's and Paul's...The Resurrection on the Last Day!!

I look forward to the responses. :)

God bless,
Alyssa

Originally Posted by Butch5 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2010076#post2010076)
Why, when the teaching that we go to heaven did not enter the church until around 1600. Even the reformers didn't preach that we go to heaven when we die. Here is a quote from Calvin,


I know Calvin opposed Luther's teaching of soul sleep...as he refutted it in Psychopannychia. But it would seem that you are not even speaking of soul sleep, as you have quoted Calvin talking about Paradise vs. heaven. But didn't Calvin believe Paradise and heaven where the same thing?

He was radically opposed to Luther's teaching that the soul was mortal.

Anyhoo.... I think a few on here are under the assumption you are promoting soul sleep, but it would seem that this is NOT what you believe in...since you quoted Calvin, who opposed it. And you said yourself that you weren't promoting soul sleep since you weren't familar with it.

I am curious too, how your thread ended up over here in World Religions??

Your argument is for Paradise at death vs. Heaven at death. Is this correct?

God bless,
Alyssa

Butch,
None of those writings conflict with the mainstream protestant view that the spirit of the faithful returns to God at death, and the body enters into rest inside the tomb until the resurrection.

I have no problem agreeing with you that the body rests in the grave awaiting the resurection.

However, if you say that the spirit doesn't go to be in the presence of the Lord, then we have a conflict. Spirit's of those who belong to Christ are His, not the grounds.

When we become one of His, we are to forever be with him, not have thousands of years of separation from Him.

Anyone who believes in heaven-going care to take a shot at Post 46? I have asked these questions on here before and haven't received a reply. The thread has merely been shut down.

I am not promoting any belief, as I am not certain what exactly is to happen at death. I think this is a perplexing and very interesting subject, in which I have gone back and forth on. I know Paul, David and Job's whole HOPE was in the Resurrection. Why wasn't it in going to heaven? :confused Again, why would we hope for anything more if we are in the presence of the Lord when we die?

I would appreciate if someone who knows the Scriptures well enough could answer these questions as well as Post 46. :)

God bless!
Alyssa

Anyone who believes in heaven-going care to take a shot at Post 46? I have asked these questions on here before and haven't received a reply. The thread has merely been shut down.

I am not promoting any belief, as I am not certain what exactly is to happen at death. I think this is a perplexing and very interesting subject, in which I have gone back and forth on. I know Paul, David and Job's whole HOPE was in the Resurrection. Why wasn't it in going to heaven? :confused Again, why would we hope for anything more if we are in the presence of the Lord when we die?

I would appreciate if someone who knows the Scriptures well enough could answer these questions as well as Post 46. :)

God bless!
Alyssa

My take on this (generally) was that the O.T. didn't reveal awhole lot about going to heaven....it wasn't so much the topic of discussion, nor expounded upon nearly to the level that Christ and the NT writers did later in the NT.

The OT guys did know that being faithful meant they would be forever with the Lord...not in a state of unconscious separation from the Lord.

King David
Psa 23:6 "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever."

He knew that God would both be with him in this life, and forever more....dwelling in the house of the Lord forever isn't being unconscious or alone in the ground for the last 3000 years, is it?

Job
Job 36:7 "He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted."

While Job knew his body would go to the grave awaiting the resurrection; he also knew that the rightoues are also established and exalted forever with Lord....hard to do for 'forever' if one's spirit remains unconscious and trapped alone inside the tomb with one's body for 4000 years like Job's old bones.

Isaiah
Isaiah 26:3 "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee. Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength"

Isaiah expected to be able to trust in the Lord forever, to be kept in peach and His everlasting strength. He didn't know alot about heaven in his day, but Isaiah knew the Lord wouldn't abandon him in the ground for 2800 years...but rather, that the Lord would be Isaiah's strength forever.

Matthew
Matt 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

If Jesus is truly with His people always, then what of Stephen who died 2000 years ago? Has Stephen's spirit been unconscious and alone in the grave for 2000 years, or has he always been with the Lord?

Acts 7:55 "But Stephen, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Stephen was a great example revealed to us in the NT of the spirit going to the Lord's presence at death. As David, to be forever in the house of the Lord, as Job to be established and exalted forever, and Isaiah.

It's just that in the O.T. the topic of being in Heaven wasn't that developed or expounded upon...just like the avenue for getting there, Jesus Christ, wasn't nearly as described and presented as it would later be in the N.T.

Here is another good example given to David. When contemplating his own death, what was David's hope? To be abandoned unconsciouly in the grave for thousands of years? No....hardly.

Psa 73:23 "Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever."

One of the most clear examples from the O.T. that David's hope even though his body was failing and he knew his heart was failing and death was coming near; he would be continually with the Lord and received up into glory in heaven with the Lord forever.

Before I actually answer your questions, Alyssa, I want to point out some passages that undeniably point to a conscious existence after death:

1. In Matthew 17 and Luke, we find the disciples with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Here, Moses and Elijah appear. Clearly, both are conscious and alive - not in some kind of slumber awaiting the final resurrection.
2. Jesus argued that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - and said He was the God of the living, not the dead. Luke 20:38 puts it like this: "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him." Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not dead but alive.
3. In Philippians 1, Paul debates whether it would be better for him to die or to stay alive. He proceeds to say that He would rather be with Christ: "But I am hard-pressed from both {directions,} having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for {that} is very much better;" Obviously, departing means being with Christ, not sleeping or waiting in a place separated from Christ.
4. Hebrews 12:22-23 says this: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of {the} righteous made perfect," How does that fit in with soul sleep? We have come to Mount Zion, where are also the spirits of the righteous made perfect!
5. Luke 16:22 says that Lazarus was carried into Abraham's bosom after he died. Clearly, Lazarus did not fall into some state of soul sleep at death.

This is just a beginning. The point that needs to be established is that soul sleep is unbiblical. Whatever problems we encounter while studying the topic cannot and should not steer us away from the undeniable truth that we go either to be with the Lord or to eternal separation from God when we die. With that mindset, let's have a look at your questions:

1) We hear there will be "no more tears in heaven," and yet, the first time we see mention of this is in Revelation when the New Jerusalem is brought to earth FROM heaven.
Honestly, I do not know if there will be tears in heaven when I die. Whatever the case may be, I know that in the new heavens and new earth, there will be no tears. That is enough for me. I do not see how this affects the discussion concerning soul sleep in any way.

2.) We talk about how glorious it will be when we get to heaven and how perfect everything will be in the presence of the Lord, and yet, somehow we will still be longing for "something more"....as in our new bodies and our new home. How could we possibly long for anything more if we are in the "presence of the Lord??" This never made any sense to me at all.
Even though we are in the presence of God, the final consummation of God's plan has not taken place. While death has been defeated, the final judgment has yet to take place. So yes, we rejoice in the presence of God, but there is still more to come. On top of that, 1 Corinthians 15 sheds light on this question as well. Our mortality will put on immortality when Christ returns - we will receive a new body, an immortal one! I don't know about you, but that is something that thrills me right to the bone! Heaven is great and being with God is fantastic, but I cannot wait until death is dealt the final blow and is no more, and we experience the final consummation in our new bodies in the new heavens and the new earth!

3) If we are in heaven after we die, we are told we are prasing the Lord, but yet Job and David say this isn't so. If we are praising him, can we see him? The references for WHEN we will SEE the Lord for the first time is on the Last Day (according to Job) and Revelation 22:4 in the New Jerusalem.
I do not see any reference in Job that states that the first time we see the Lord is on the Last Day. The only verse that might even remotely suggest that is Job 19:25-26: ""As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;" I don't see any soul sleep there.
Revelation 22:4 says "they will see His face, and His name {will be} on their foreheads." It doesn't say that this will be the first time that they see His face nor does it make any such implication. To claim that based on this verse is isegesis (reading into the Bible).

4) Last point, though I have many others... I hear preachers say all the time that we will receive our reward when we die and go to heaven. Where is this verse? Because according to Rev 22:12 Christ tells us that he is COMING soon and his reward is WITH him, and he will give to everyone according to what they have done.
I do not know of any such Scripture stating that we receive our reward right when we get to heaven. The question is what that reward actually is. If you take 'reward' to mean being with God then I can see how this troubles you. But I encourage you to study the Scriptures and see what the Bible actually says this reward is.

I hope this helps you.
Pilgrimtozion

Anyone who believes in heaven-going care to take a shot at Post 46? I have asked these questions on here before and haven't received a reply.

Let's look at your 4 questions.



1.) We hear there will be "no more tears in heaven," and yet, the first time we see mention of this is in Revelation when the New Jerusalem is brought to earth FROM heaven.
a.) So heaven-goers, will there be no more tears in heaven when you die? And if so, where is this verse? Because here it shows this won't happen until after the Resurrection in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Remember heaven is time-less. There is no crying in heaven, regardless of when someone gets there (either at death at the end of this life like Stephen) or at the final gathering at the Resurrection of mankind.

John in Rev 21, was quoting Isaiah:

Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

Other examples of no crying...this time in relation to the Earth. Paul quoted this passage in I Corinthians 15:54...

Isaiah 25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it."

So it really is a relationship of no crying...when one is in the direct presence of the Lord (whether in Heaven or on the Earth, crying and weeping shall cease.) Complete personified joy shall be realized.






2.) We talk about how glorious it will be when we get to heaven and how perfect everything will be in the presence of the Lord, and yet, somehow we will still be longing for "something more"....as in our new bodies and our new home.
a.) How could we possibly long for anything more if we are in the "presence of the Lord??" This never made any sense to me at all.
I would guess because our glorified bodies are the culmination of our design. My take is that the Lord will have designed them i a manner that only once we receive them will we be able to fully enjoy the fullest glory of the Lord. I Corinthians 15 talks the most about our spiritual bodies, and their type and their glory.

I've also heard some people say that since only the phyiscal realm is held by time, and heaven and the Lord are outside of time and not bound by it, that when we die, we immediately participate in the final heavenly destiny...although our dead bodies remain in the grave bound and awaiting the resurrection (like a seed in the ground awaiting its sprouting and a cocoon awaiting its metamorphasis into a butterfy)...but on Heaven's side, time isn't a binding factor, and everything the Lord has for us is immediately realized...that's how Paul was able to say we are already reigning with Him in heavenly places. It's hard to get the mind around these types of concepts.

All we can know for sure, is that for believers, they will never be removed from the presence of the Lord...and that means thousands of years abandoned and unconscious in the ground is not a valid expectation for those who belong to Christ.



3.) If we are in heaven after we die, we are told we are prasing the Lord, but yet Job and David say this isn't so. If we are praising him, can we see him?
a.) The references for WHEN we will SEE the Lord for the first time is on the Last Day (according to Job) and Revelation 22:4 in the New Jerusalem.
Or was Job just saying that would be then next time his rotting flesh and bones would 'see' with those same literal eyes...the Lord?

Job 19:25 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. "

Job is speaking of when his old rotting body would literally see the Lord. In heaven, in spirit form, how do we see? How do we concieve bodiless interaction and presence? Don't know. All I do know is that our hope is to always be with the Lord in His presence, and never to be abandoned to the grave alone and without him.



4.) Last point, though I have many others... I hear preachers say all the time that we will receive our reward when we die and go to heaven.a.) Where is this verse? Because according to Rev 22:12 Christ tells us that he is COMING soon and his reward is WITH him, and he will give to everyone according to what they have done.


My guess again, is that the reward is that we are in Heaven in His presence...not that we are in hell tormented in the flames and anguish.

We know at His return, He will give us immortal, incorruptible bodies fashioned out of our old mortal ones...that is a reward to look for. Even at our earthly life, we have been given many rewards from the Lord wouldn't you agree? They too all preceed the final gift which is the reception of our immortal and incorruptible spirit bodies.

Until that happens, nothing is yet finished....we are still in waiting patterns...but we wait in the presence of our Lord with Him...alway with the Lord...and never abandoned and alone in the ground.

David knew even though his body went to the grave, he would always be in the presence of the Lord:

Psa 16:8 "I have set the LORD always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand."

Oh boy, I'm opening a can of worms, but from the moment our physical body dies will we be in heaven with the Lord? Or will we have to wait until the Resurrection to be there? Are there levels of heaven?

Just a thought, but if we all go to heaven when we die, then who are the dead in Christ that leave the grave to be with the Lord in the air at his return?

Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Why are we waiting for Jesus to return to gather the dead in Christ if they are already in Heaven?

Firstfruits

Just a thought, but if we all go to heaven when we die, then who are the dead in Christ that leave the grave to be with the Lord in the air at his return?

Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Firstfruits


They are our bodies...raised to new life.

Following the example of Jesus Himself.

Jesus:
Died on the cross.
His spirit went immediately to be with the Father in Heaven.
His body was removed and placed in the grave to wait.
His Resurrection Day.
His old body is raised incorruptible, and His spirit and body unit reunited again forevermore.

Us:
We will die (somewhere).
Our spirit will immediately be with the Father in Heaven.
Our body will be placed in the grave to wait.
Our Resurrection Day.
Our old bodies will be raised incorruptible, and our spirit and body unit reunites again forevermore.

Paul explains the process in the most detail here.
I Thess 3:13, 4:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"

So when the Resurrection occurs, both the spirits of those who are in Heaven with Jesus will return with Him, to be united with our risen and glorified bodies; together.

The body and spirit that was separated at physical death, is reunited in a glorified and eternal way at the resurrection to newness of life!

Just as James told us, "For as the body without the spirit is dead".

The body awaits the return of the spirit, to become alive again at the resurrection.

They are our bodies...raised to new life.

Following the example of Jesus Himself.

Jesus:
Died on the cross.
His spirit went immediately to be with the Father in Heaven.
His body was removed and placed in the grave to wait.
His Resurrection Day.
His old body is raised incorruptible, and His spirit and body unit reunited again forevermore.

Us:
We will die (somewhere).
Our spirit will immediately be with the Father in Heaven.
Our body will be placed in the grave to wait.
Our Resurrection Day.
Our old bodies will be raised incorruptible, and our spirit and body unit reunites again forevermore.

Paul explains the process in the most detail here.
I Thess 3:13, 4:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"

So when the Resurrection occurs, both the spirits of those who are in Heaven with Jesus will return with Him, to be united with our risen and glorified bodies; together.

The body and spirit that was separated at physical death, is reunited in a glorified and eternal way at the resurrection to newness of life!

Just as James told us, "For as the body without the spirit is dead".

The body awaits the return of the spirit, to become alive again at the resurrection.

Thanks David,

If we are already in heaven will we not already have our heavenly bodies for us to be there?

1 Cor 15:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Cor 15:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Cor 15:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Firstfruits

Hey David and Pilgrimtozion!

Thanks a ton for responding. :)

I am not questioning whether we will be left "alone or abandoned alone in the grave." For if we belong to the Lord, we are ALWAYS in his presence even in the grave... according to Scripture, not me.

Psalm 139:7
Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there."





[quote=David Taylor;2010640]Let's look at your 4 questions.


[/indent]Remember heaven is time-less. There is no crying in heaven, regardless of when someone gets there (either at death at the end of this life like Stephen) or at the final gathering at the Resurrection of mankind.

John in Rev 21, was quoting Isaiah:

Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

Other examples of no crying...this time in relation to the Earth. Paul quoted this passage in I Corinthians 15:54...

Isaiah 25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it."

So it really is a relationship of no crying...when one is in the direct presence of the Lord (whether in Heaven or on the Earth, crying and weeping shall cease.) Complete personified joy shall be realized.


But again, these verses are about the New Jerusalem. No more tears will occur at the coming of the Kingdom from heaven, when the Resurrection occurs. I wonder why we don't have a verse that says there will be no more tears when we die and go to heaven? But instead, it is at the Return of Christ.



All I do know is that our hope is to always be with the Lord in His presence, and never to be abandoned to the grave alone and without him.



Oh, I agree with that. Psalm 139 tells us we cannot flee from his presence, even if we go down into the grave!



My guess again, is that the reward is that we are in Heaven in His presence...not that we are in hell tormented in the flames and anguish.


But then, we are left to guessing. We KNOW from Scripture that our reward is coming from heaven at the Resurrection.



We know at His return, He will give us immortal, incorruptible bodies fashioned out of our old mortal ones...that is a reward to look for. Even at our earthly life, we have been given many rewards from the Lord wouldn't you agree? They too all preceed the final gift which is the reception of our immortal and incorruptible spirit bodies.


Amen! But God is specifically speaking of his very special REWARD that he is bringing TO us FROM heaven. :hmm:



Until that happens, nothing is yet finished....we are still in waiting patterns...but we wait in the presence of our Lord with Him...alway with the Lord...and never abandoned and alone in the ground.


Agree! Again Psalm 139!!




David knew even though his body went to the grave, he would always be in the presence of the Lord:

Psa 16:8 "I have set the LORD always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand."

Yes, but David also said this:

Psalm 115:17
"It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down into silence;

Psalm 88:10
"Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead raise up and praise you?"
If David knew he would be praising God in heaven, then why would he make these comments? Why did he plead with God, in other verses, to allow him to remain alive so he could praise him? We know God will not abandon us to the grave because he is going to Resurrect us, but David even told us that we cannot flee from his presence, even in the grave.

Psalm 71:2
"you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up."

Psalm 49:15
"But God will redeem my life from the grave"

So what do we make of these verses, which are only a very few out of the many in the bible?

You agree that we have no Scripture that tells us we will see his face while we are in heaven. But Scripture DOES tell us that we will see him AT the Resurrection when he comes back for us and we receive our reward, when he will wipe away every tear.

Psalm 17:15
"And I - in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisified with seeing your likeness."


I firmly believe that the spirit returns to the Lord. I want to be clear on that. I do not believe, according to Scripture, that the spirit stays with the body. Scripture tells us that the spirit is the breath of life. All living things have the spirit/breath of life. Without it, we are all dead. I do not deny that.

There appears in the Greek and Hebrew to be a distinction between spirit and soul. And even Scripture says we are body, soul and spirit. God said in the beginning, "Let US make man in OUR image." Some believe this is the body, soul and spirit.


It is very odd to me, that Jesus will leave heaven (with us) to COME get us and give us our reward. How do we make sense of him leaving WITH us to COME get us?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the verses you have provided, but there are far many others that do not harmonize with those. And that is the problem I have. I have studied this and studied it...Looked at the Greek and Hebrew and studied the Early Church's belief (a little). The pastors I respect the most, believe as you do, the church I go to, believes as you do, and still, their arguments don't seem strong enough. Both sides, either way you look at it, has good arguments.

Things need to harmonize, though. And at this point, I have not found that full harmonization, though I know it is there! :)


pilgrimtozion
This is just a beginning. The point that needs to be established is that soul sleep is unbiblical. Whatever problems we encounter while studying the topic cannot and should not steer us away from the undeniable truth that we go either to be with the Lord or to eternal separation from God when we die.


I agree that we will never flee from the Lord's presence if we belong to him. The term "soul sleep" is associated with a couple of man-made Religion's that I know very little about, by the way. But I would not go so far as to say that the verses I have just given to you are "unbiblical." Obviously, they are coming straight out of the bible. ;) Is it called "soul sleep?" Is it called "resting in the Lord?" Is it called "Paradise?" Is it called "the intermediate state?" Is it called "Awaiting the Resurrection?" (That would seem most biblical). I don't care much about Religious terms that come out of Seminaries. I am more concerned with what Scripture says. Please... do not take that as an insult in any way. I just want to be clear on where I am coming from. :)

I am interested in harmonizing the Scriptures.

God bless!
Alyssa

More food for thought!

The spirit (breath of life) returns to the Lord.
The body goes to the grave.

While the body is in the grave, it decays completely. It is now dust, as Scripture said it would be.

If the body is ONLY dust, what significance is there in raising it? We will be given a NEW body, not the body of flesh. So the same body is not being raised.

So "what" is being raised?

Something of significance HAS to be left as a SEED in the ground that God sees as so important that hundreds of verses speak about, that the hope of Job, David, Paul and many others speak about, that Paul defended in Corinth. Why so much emphasis on the Resurrection? If we are in heaven when we die, why is there MORE emphasis on raising the dead? Why are there MORE verses about THAT? Why so very, very little about heaven and absolutely none about going to heaven when we die?

Could it not be that the Lord is bringing with Him our (spirit) breath of life...
To unite it once again with our (soul) mind, will and emotions...
And recreate our (bodies)...
Just as he did when he formed us in the beginning?

This would seem to line up better with all of the verses from both arguments, though I haven't compared them all... (going off of memory.)

There just has to be something significant that is left in the grave to be Resurrected, or there wouldn't be so so so many verses about it.

Still working it all out, though... :)

God bless,
Alyssa

Psalm 115:17
"It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down into silence;

Psalm 88:10
"Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead raise up and praise you?"
If David knew he would be praising God in heaven, then why would he make these comments? Why did he plead with God, in other verses, to allow him to remain alive so he could praise him? We know God will not abandon us to the grave because he is going to Resurrect us, but David even told us that
we cannot flee from his presence, even in the grave.


I'm sure David had alot of questions about how the afterlife operated.
He knew that if he went to the tomb of his dead father Jesse, and watched him for a couple of hours, Jesse's old bones wouldn't get up and praise the Lord...that much he did know.

But David did know that he would aways be with the Lord forever...so his spirit mustn't have been in mind in those verses...only the body.

David knew when his infant son died, that his son couldn't return to him, but he would eventually go to be reunited in the presence with his son at death.

2 Samuel 12:22 "And David said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."




Psalm 71:2
"you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up."

Psalm 49:15
"But God will redeem my life from the grave"

So what do we make of these verses, which are only a very few out of the many in the bible?


Where is the material bodies of my two grandmothers? In the grave...awaiting to be brought up and restored back to life at the Resurrection.

Where is the immaterial spirits of my two grandmothers? Absent from their bodies...present with the Lord.

The two verses above are speaking of David's expectation of his dead body being raised....not his spirit being raised from unconsciousness.




You agree that we have no Scripture that tells us we will see his face while we are in heaven. But Scripture DOES tell us that we will see him AT the Resurrection when he comes back for us and we receive our reward, when he will wipe away every tear.

Psalm 17:15
"And I - in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisified with seeing your likeness."

The perhaps since we don't have a body hanging around with us at death, and we are only spiritually in the Lord's presences, we don't have eyes to see Him until we are rejoined and raised with our bodies. That doesn't mean our spirit is inconscious in the ground though. It just means our spirit with the Lord most likely won't see or weep. We really don't know much at all about what Heaven is like other than we can count on it that if we are Jesus' He will never leave us or forsake us...and we won't be left alone in the grave with our dead bodies for hundreds maybe thousands of years awaiting the resurrection.





I firmly believe that the spirit returns to the Lord. I want to be clear on that. I do not believe, according to Scripture, that the spirit stays with the body. Scripture tells us that the spirit is the breath of life. All living things have the spirit/breath of life. Without it, we are all dead. I do not deny that.

There appears in the Greek and Hebrew to be a distinction between spirit and soul. And even Scripture says we are body, soul and spirit. God said in the beginning, "Let US make man in OUR image." Some believe this is the body, soul and spirit.

Actually, what there is, is inconsistency.
Sometimes scripture speaks of soul/spirit as one unit, sometimes as different, sometimes the word soul is used to denote body, sometimes spirit, sometimes both...the inconsistencies make trying to use the words themselves to build doctrine impossible...(although the SDA and JWs try real hard to do this).

What one can only do, is example the entire context of all the bible, and if the bible speaks of conscious existence after death and prior to the resurrection; then we have to accept that premise...and not attempt to counteract it or reject it because of some inconsistent useage of words in a few places based on the greek or hebrew.

Many examples exist in scripture showing us that the dead spirits of people remain conscious, not unconsciously trapped in the coffin with the body.





It is very odd to me, that Jesus will leave heaven (with us) to COME get us and give us our reward. How do we make sense of him leaving WITH us to COME get us?

Simple.
The spirits of those who have died are with Him in Heaven.
Their bodies, along with those who are still living, are on the Earth.

He is returning to the Earth, so we come with him (if we've died), to be reunited with our raised bodies, and all the changed living glorified people.

Jesus' own spirit went to be with the Father in Heaven at His death..it didn't lie unconscious in the tomb with his body. We follow His example.





Don't get me wrong, I understand the verses you have provided, but there are far many others that do not harmonize with those.

Keep listing ones you think are, because I've never found an example where the soul-sleep view is supportable or not discountable when explained in the proper context with the entire pale of scripture.




And that is the problem I have. I have studied this and studied it...Looked at the Greek and Hebrew and studied the Early Church's belief (a little). The pastors I respect the most, believe as you do, the church I go to, believes as you do, and still, their arguments don't seem strong enough. Both sides, either way you look at it, has good arguments.

Things need to harmonize, though. And at this point, I have not found that full harmonization, though I know it is there! :)

I would think that most verses that are causing you trouble, are referring to the dead material body, not the living spirit that are the true 'us' that will always be with the Lord.

But please, continue to post scriptures. If you want this to be more focused, and to do this without others interjecting and creating rabbit-chases, feel welcomed to start a thread in the Chat-to-Mods forum where we can interchange one-on-one...if you like that as an option. Your choice. At least in that mode, things can't get out of hand, and the thread won't get closed down. With this one being on open forum, and on a topic that is borderline against forum rules to begin with, that could always come into play here.




I agree that we will never flee from the Lord's presence if we belong to him. The term "soul sleep" is associated with a couple of man-made Religion's that I know very little about, by the way. But I would not go so far as to say that the verses I have just given to you are "unbiblical."

No verses are unbiblical...just misunderstood, or in these cases, often misrepresented by said "man-made religions" to the point that they can trip up and cause confusion if not correctly addressed.




Obviously, they are coming straight out of the bible. ;) Is it called "soul sleep?" Is it called "resting in the Lord?" Is it called "Paradise?" Is it called "the intermediate state?" Is it called "Awaiting the Resurrection?" (That would seem most biblical). I don't care much about Religious terms that come out of Seminaries. I am more concerned with what Scripture says. Please... do not take that as an insult in any way. I just want to be clear on where I am coming from. :)

I am interested in harmonizing the Scriptures.

God bless!
Alyssa

You're taking a great approach to this study...seeking truth, not wanting to push agendas from questionable denominational doctrines. We really appreciate it.

More food for thought!

The spirit (breath of life) returns to the Lord.
The body goes to the grave.

While the body is in the grave, it decays completely. It is now dust, as Scripture said it would be.

If the body is ONLY dust, what significance is there in raising it? We will be given a NEW body, not the body of flesh. So the same body is not being raised.

So "what" is being raised?


Sure it is, and that's the beauty of it.
We are raised from our old bodies, even in dust....Just like Jesus was raised from his old, bloodened, scarred, mistreated body!

Again, re-read 1 Cor 15...the 26-50 verses I think, which talk about the seed applications.

A seed detached from its lifegiving plant, dies, is planted in the ground, and rots. The amazing metamorphisis into a living, growing, colorful and vibrant star-gazer lilly came from that old dead rotten seed!

It wasn't raised back to a old dried up dead seed, but something much more...that grew out of that old original seed.

Our glorified resurrection bodies, just like Jesus' own, will follow the same pattern.

A beautiful, elegant, and whispy orange butterfly cannot come from an empty cocoon....but rather from the dead, rotting, corpse of it's prior self
...the ugly caterpillar.

The new body is made from the old body, along with all kinds of stuff the Lord will add into the mix that we have no idea of comprehending.

How was Jesus own body metemorphasized? We don't know the details, we just know we will follow his path and example. That example is very important don't you think?




Something of significance HAS to be left as a SEED in the ground that God sees as so important that hundreds of verses speak about, that the hope of Job, David, Paul and many others speak about, that Paul defended in Corinth. Why so much emphasis on the Resurrection? If we are in heaven when we die, why is there MORE emphasis on raising the dead? Why are there MORE verses about THAT? Why so very, very little about heaven and absolutely none about going to heaven when we die?

Could a caterpillar have been happy to stay a caterpillar?
Could a caterpillar have had any idea that he would become a butterfly?

God's plan for us in resurrection is to complete all things..our final glorification and completion of our beauty and design lies there...not anything or any state prior to that.

You say there are absolutely no verses about going to heaven when we die...yet you've been shown alot by others in this thread.

Not sure how to help you if you want to blanketly not accept them.




Could it not be that the Lord is bringing with Him our (spirit) breath of life...
To unite it once again with our (soul) mind, will and emotions...
And recreate our (bodies)...
Just as he did when he formed us in the beginning?


Except that many verses show the dead being conscious and aware apart from their dead bodies, after death. So either there must be confusion on where/how the terms for soul/spirit are being used.

Since there are examples of people after death being aware and conscious apart from their body...call it what you want..their soul, their spirit, their breath...it doesn't matter the label...it just matters that it occurs; and is scripturally documented.

And for the believer, that place is with the Lord, who is in Heaven as Stephen saw. For the unbeliever, it is in hell in the conscoiusly tormented fames and agony.




This would seem to line up better with all of the verses from both arguments, though I haven't compared them all... (going off of memory.)

There just has to be something significant that is left in the grave to be Resurrected, or there wouldn't be so so so many verses about it.

Still working it all out, though... :)

God bless,
Alyssa

Without our bodies, we will not resurrection into our final, glorified bodies...because as Paul taught, they are apart of the recipe for it.

That's all...doesn't mean unconsciousness or not being with the Lord at death.(spiritually..not bodily).

First let's look at what Paul said,

2 Corinthians 5:8 ( KJV ) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

He didn't say to absent from the body "is" to be present with the Lord,
He said, I am willing rather to be absent from the body "and" be present with the Lord.

Where he is willing to be makes no difference to what he said. If he is in the body he is absent from the Lord and if he is absent from the Lord he is still in the body.
In Phil. 1:21-23 Paul in Prison continues with this theme.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
But I am hard pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

1600? Calvin?
:bounce:

What do you find so humous?

I know Calvin opposed Luther's teaching of soul sleep...as he refutted it in Psychopannychia. But it would seem that you are not even speaking of soul sleep, as you have quoted Calvin talking about Paradise vs. heaven. But didn't Calvin believe Paradise and heaven where the same thing?

He was radically opposed to Luther's teaching that the soul was mortal.

Anyhoo.... I think a few on here are under the assumption you are promoting soul sleep, but it would seem that this is NOT what you believe in...since you quoted Calvin, who opposed it. And you said yourself that you weren't promoting soul sleep since you weren't familar with it.

I am curious too, how your thread ended up over here in World Religions??

Your argument is for Paradise at death vs. Heaven at death. Is this correct?

God bless,
Alyssa

Yes that is correct, most people just assume we go to heaven when we die. However, that is not taught in Scripture and it was not the belief of the church until around the 1600's. I find it hard to believe that for the first 1500 years everyone in the entire history of Christianity had it wrong and then the Puritans come along and all of a sudden they have the true word of God. Augustine introduced the idea of the heavenly destiny and it was rejected by the church. The Puritans, in their attempt to counter the Catholic church's doctrine of Purgatory, began to preach the heavenly destiny. As you saw from the quote, even Calvin, a major player in the Reformation, which brought about the teaching of the heavenly destiny, rejected the idea.

Notice Calvin speaks of Abraham's bosom not heaven.
Also I haven't forgotten about your verses.

Butch,
None of those writings conflict with the mainstream protestant view that the spirit of the faithful returns to God at death, and the body enters into rest inside the tomb until the resurrection.

I have no problem agreeing with you that the body rests in the grave awaiting the resurection.

However, if you say that the spirit doesn't go to be in the presence of the Lord, then we have a conflict. Spirit's of those who belong to Christ are His, not the grounds.

When we become one of His, we are to forever be with him, not have thousands of years of separation from Him.

Can you show me where I said that beleivers do not go to be with the Lord? What I said was, beleivers don't go to heaven when they die.

Hi Bick!

I have many questions that wonderful Christians who believe in "heaven-going" cannot answer. But there are questions for the other side as well that can't seem to be answered. It leaves me puzzled.

One thing I know. There is not one single verse in the bible that says we go to heaven when we die. But yet, I cannot get around Paul's being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord... or "to live is Christ, to die is gain...." or when he was divided over wanting to remain with his friends or depart and be with the Lord.

. :)

God bless,
Alyssa

Hi Alyssa,
There are doctrines in the Word where something doesn't just come right out and say something. Scripture must be kept in context and Scripture also will interpret itself.
I also am not steeped in the Church Fathers and of course what they've contributed is I'm sure of great value, yet they were still mere men just as we are. Christ is the One Who had the truth. As we know, even the Church Fathers didn't all agree on everything either.
For myself, I believe when we die we are somehow present with the Lord, if in heaven, good or somewhere else still good as we are still present with the Lord. I believe we are and will be aware that we are.
Yes, the Lord is omnipresent and He is with us even as we live. So why not so much more when we are dead? And even regarding that Scripture tells me when we believe we have eternal Life. I know there is a difference between spiritual life and physical Life but what Christ did on the Cross made all the difference in the subject of death. One who believes, no longer has to fear death. Which is why Hebrews 2:14-15 means so much to me.

If we are not present with Christ when we die what would make us different then than those who are not believers when they die?
I don't have all the answers but that is where faith and hope comes in doesn't it?I gotta go to work, now. More later maybe? :)

They are our bodies...raised to new life.

Following the example of Jesus Himself.

Jesus:
Died on the cross.
His spirit went immediately to be with the Father in Heaven.
His body was removed and placed in the grave to wait.
His Resurrection Day.
His old body is raised incorruptible, and His spirit and body unit reunited again forevermore.

Us:
We will die (somewhere).
Our spirit will immediately be with the Father in Heaven.
Our body will be placed in the grave to wait.
Our Resurrection Day.
Our old bodies will be raised incorruptible, and our spirit and body unit reunites again forevermore.

Paul explains the process in the most detail here.
I Thess 3:13, 4:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"

So when the Resurrection occurs, both the spirits of those who are in Heaven with Jesus will return with Him, to be united with our risen and glorified bodies; together.

The body and spirit that was separated at physical death, is reunited in a glorified and eternal way at the resurrection to newness of life!

Just as James told us, "For as the body without the spirit is dead".

The body awaits the return of the spirit, to become alive again at the resurrection.


His Spirit went immediately to the Father???


Matthew 12:40 ( KJV ) 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Acts 2:29-31 ( KJV ) 29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Acts 2:32 ( KJV ) 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.


John 20:16-17 ( KJV ) 16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17Jesus saith unto her,Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

You are correct we do just as Jesus did, He dies and spent 3 days in hte heart of the earth, which we see from David is Hades, then He was resurrected. As will we, die, go into Hades and be resurrected

Can you show me where I said that beleivers do not go to be with the Lord? What I said was, beleivers don't go to heaven when they die.

The Lord is in Heaven....and not in the tomb, or the ground, or some purgatory-place. So when believers go to be with the Lord...they are with Him in Heaven. (only their dead bodies remain on Earth in the tomb.)



Mark 16:19 "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."

Luke 24:51 "And it came to pass, while Jesus blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven."

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Acts 1:11 "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven"

Romans 10:6 "the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)"

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ is entered not into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself"

I Peter 1:21 "Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God"

When

His Spirit went immediately to the Father???

Yes, without a doubt.

Matthew 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. "



Matthew 12:40 ( KJV ) 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus body was in the tomb of the grave for 3 days...as prophesied.



Acts 2:29-31 ( KJV ) 29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Jesus body was in the tomb of the grave for 3 days...as prophesied.

(soul in this case, is contextually body, not immaterial soul...only bodies see corruption, not immaterial souls. Hell in this context, is grave, not place of the tormented wicked. Again, context, not Greek/Hebrew words in a box, explains this passage...since those words aren't used consistently in all cases to refer to the same thing.)



Acts 2:32 ( KJV ) 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Jesus body was raised up...as prophesied and witnessed.



John 20:16-17 ( KJV ) 16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17Jesus saith unto her,Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Jesus body had not yet ascended to the Father at this time..his Spirit went to the Father in Heaven when it departed His body on the cross at His death.

""Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. "



You are correct we do just as Jesus did, He died and spent 3 days in the heart of the earth, which we see from David is Hades, then He was resurrected. As will we, die, go into Hades and be resurrected

If you want to interpret 'Hades' or 'Hell' as the grave in this context, then no problem or conflict. Jesus' body went into the grave for 3 days. His spirit however, did not die and go into the ground...nor did his spirit cease to exist or become unaware and unconscious.

Hey David...

Thanks for your effort on this. I appreciate it.

I will write more later (aren't you happy??!!!) hahaha....

But let me ask you this before I forget. I know that Jesus gave up his spirit (breath of life), and he was in the earth (as Jonah was in the belly of the fish), preaching to the spirits there.

If he was in heaven, how could he be in hades preaching to the spirits?

Thanks!
Talk to ya more later

God bless,
Alyssa

Hey David...

Thanks for your effort on this. I appreciate it.

I will write more later (aren't you happy??!!!) hahaha....

But let me ask you this before I forget. I know that Jesus gave up his spirit (breath of life), and he was in the earth (as Jonah was in the belly of the fish), preaching to the spirits there.

If he was in heaven, how could he be in hades preaching to the spirits?

Thanks!
Talk to ya more later

God bless,
Alyssa


Myself personally, I believe your premise is a myth.

I don't think Jesus was preaching to anyone in a purgatory-like holding tank between the cross and the resurrection.

The people who died before Jesus' death didn't need a post-death preaching. They had their chance to repent and follow the Lord, during their own lifetimes.

That verse is used by Catholics to justify purgatory, and it is used more and more also by WOF movement folks to teach the heretical notion that Jesus had to go into hell and suffer direct punishment from the Devil in order to fully and completely atone for our sins...that it wasn't finished on the cross; but his atonement was finished in Hell after taking sufficient licks from Satan.

Just can't buy any of those interpretations.

Going back to that passage, and re-examining it:

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

"Spirits in Prison" here, IMO, is simply talking about the unrepentent during their lives. Those who were in captivity to sin. Those who were in bondage to sin. Those who through him alone, could find salvation...like Job did, like David did, like Isaiah did....all during their lives, by faithfully repenting and following the Lord.

(not some supposed after-death salvation experience as is often speculated in this passage)

Do you not believe that Jesus preached to the people in the O.T. times? (during their lives)

I sure do. Whether directly through theophanies and christophanies, or through the prophets like this example:

John 5:45 "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

If Jesus had to die and the go preach to the dead people in a purgatory-like after-death holding tank...why did Jesus tell them above, that listening and believing in Moses words was like believing in His own words?

Why did Jesus say the OT writings taught of His death, burial, and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins...if a post-death group-salvation was required?

See where this notion leads? All kinds of problems.

We are saved during our lives, not after them when we are dead....otherwise, why not even today for us...let's teach we can put off repenting and turning in faith to Jesus during this life, because we like the supposed "spirits in prison" may also get a special preaching session from Jesus after our own deaths...and we can then choose to repent...do we really want to teach this dangerous stuff?

What did Paul say? "II Corinthians 6:2 For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. " (not after death). BTW, who was the "he that saith" in blue? It was Isaiah, preaching to his audience of living people that the time was acceptable and the day of salvation was available during his day....700 years before Jesus died on the cross.


"if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. "

Jesus puts the responsibility for the OT people upon hearing and believe the Word of God....not in a post-death salvation from one who is dead.

Where he is willing to be makes no difference to what he said. If he is in the body he is absent from the Lord and if he is absent from the Lord he is still in the body.
In Phil. 1:21-23 Paul in Prison continues with this theme.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
But I am hard pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.


I didn't say Paul wouldn't be with Christ, the verse you quoted did not say that to be absent from the body "is" to be present with Christ. I didn't say this was not the case, I said the verse you used did not say that .

"Spirits in Prison" here, IMO, is simply talking about the unrepentent during their lives. Those who were in captivity to sin. Those who were in bondage to sin. Those who through him alone, could find salvation...like Job did, like David did, like Isaiah did....all during their lives, by faithfully repenting and following the Lord.

(not some supposed after-death salvation experience as is often speculated in this passage)

.

Sounds good to me.

That verse was always very strange to me, just as the one about being baptized for the dead. :confused

Thanks for your two cents!

More to come.... :)

David Taylor---Yes, without a doubt.

Matthew 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. "


Committing His Spirit into God's hands does not mean have to mean He went to heaven. He simply committed Himself to God's will



David Taylor---Jesus body was in the tomb of the grave for 3 days...as prophesied.

His body was in the heart of the earth? Wasn't it in the Sepulchre?



David Taylor---Jesus body was in the tomb of the grave for 3 days...as prophesied.

(soul in this case, is contextually body, not immaterial soul...only bodies see corruption, not immaterial souls. Hell in this context, is grave, not place of the tormented wicked. Again, context, not Greek/Hebrew words in a box, explains this passage...since those words aren't used consistently in all cases to refer to the same thing.)

If it was His body that went into Hades, please explain this passage,

1 Peter 3:18-20 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:4-6 ( KJV ) 4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Was it Christ's body that preached to the dead? That preached to the spirits in prison?
No, I believe when David prophesies, "you will not leave my soul in hades" that is exactly what he means.



David Taylor---Jesus body had not yet ascended to the Father at this time..his Spirit went to the Father in Heaven when it departed His body on the cross at His death.

""Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. "

Let me ask you this, When did His body ascend up to the father?



David Taylor---If you want to interpret 'Hades' or 'Hell' as the grave in this context, then no problem or conflict. Jesus' body went into the grave for 3 days. His spirit however, did not die and go into the ground...nor did his spirit cease to exist or become unaware and unconscious.

I believe Scripture teaches that His Spirit went to Hades, just as Jesus said in Luke.

Committing His Spirit into God's hands does not mean have to mean He went to heaven. He simply committed Himself to God's will


Hey Butch... I don't think that's what it means.

At death, a person's spirit returns to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7)... If you look up the Greek, this is the "breath of life." (pneuma). Considering that all spirits return to the Lord at death as Eccl 12 says, then I think it would be safe to conclude that is what's happening here.

My question is if there is a difference between spirit and soul. If ALL living things return to the God... and "ALL" means the wicked as well as the righteous, then it would be natural to think that there IS a difference between soul and spirit.

We cannot get around the fact that God tells us ALL living things have the breath of life... and when ALL living things die, the spirit (breath of life) returns to where it came from. Certainly the wicked are not with God in heaven. So it would seem, to me, that the spirit that's returning is the breath and not soul. So I am led to believe that the soul and spirit are separate.

"In whose hand is the life of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:10)

For me, this is a big one to get around.

Any thoughts David?


God bless,
Alyssa

I didn't say Paul wouldn't be with Christ, the verse you quoted did not say that to be absent from the body "is" to be present with Christ. I didn't say this was not the case, I said the verse you used did not say that .Now you confuse me. If we are absent from the body we are at home with the Lord so therefore if we are absent from the body then we must be present with the Lord. I understand you are trying to say that God is everywhere so therefore we don't necessarily have to be in heaven with the Lord but wherever we are He is there. Personally I believe it to mean that if we die and are out of the body then we do go to where the Lord is instead of Him being wherever we are. Paul indeed is then with Christ.

Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Man of dust from the ground - the body
Genesis 1:24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind.

Man became a living being, the creatures are also said to be living.(nephesh) They have the breath of life. They are conscious.

The difference? Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the bird.......

27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Animals are living as humans are yet they are not made in the image of God.

Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, and to dust you shall return. (the Body)

Both man and animal has breath of life but what makes us different? Must be the spirit. That part gives man a religious nature. Does an animal have a "religious nature"? A nature that desires to find and worship God?

Don't know what these verses prove but there they are.
Oh, and another verse
Heb.4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Seems to be 3 areas here.
dividing the soul and the spirit
both joints and marrow (body?)
thoughts and intentions of HEART.?

Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Man of dust from the ground - the body
Genesis 1:24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind.

Man became a living being, the creatures are also said to be living.(nephesh) They have the breath of life. They are conscious.

The difference? Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the bird.......

27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Animals are living as humans are yet they are not made in the image of God.

Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, and to dust you shall return. (the Body)

Both man and animal has breath of life but what makes us different? Must be the spirit. That part gives man a religious nature. Does an animal have a "religious nature"? A nature that desires to find and worship God?

Don't know what these verses prove but there they are.
Oh, and another verse
Heb.4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Seems to be 3 areas here.
dividing the soul and the spirit
both joints and marrow (body?)
thoughts and intentions of HEART.?

Hi :)

Thank you for your post.

You said "what makes us different?" Both man and animal have the breath of life...and no, I do not believe an animal has a religious nature...though sometimes I wonder about my dog... Just kidding!

I think the difference between man and animal is the "SOUL."
The "spirit" is the breath of life.

SPIRIT
pneuma - NT:4151 primarily denotes "the wind" (akin to pneo, "to breathe, blow"); also "breath"; then, especially "the spirit," which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful.

And I realize the soul and spirit can sometimes be regarded as the same thing in Scripture. But often we think of the soul as the mind, will and emotions. But it would seem there is some kind of difference between the two as evidenced by your post above as well as this one that follows.

1 Thess 5:23
"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

It doesn't just say spirit and body.. or soul and body. It includes all three. So if we recognize that ALL spirits return to the Father (assuming it is the BREATH of life), then it would make more sense where the wicked are concern. The wicked's soul is not going to be with the Father. But Scripture is clear, as far as I can tell, that the spirit of ALL living things will return to the Father who gave it. So if the spirit of ALL living things returns to the Father and if we consider the soul and spirit one in the same, we are then saying the wicked are going to heaven. And of course, that can't be the case.

I don't know... it seems a tough one to get around.

God bless,
Alyssa

I do not recall this question being answered, so can anyone help?

If we are already in heaven will we not already have our heavenly bodies for us to be there?

1 Cor 15:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Cor 15:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Cor 15:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Firstfruits

I do not recall this question being answered, so can anyone help?

If we are already in heaven will we not already have our heavenly bodies for us to be there?

1 Cor 15:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Cor 15:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Cor 15:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Firstfruits

Well, I have the same questions as you. All I can go by is what is in Scripture. And the rest of that verse says:

1 Cor 15:50 "I tell you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

At the Last Trumpet, the dead are raised IMPERISHABLE, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the MORTAL with IMMORTALITY.

1 Timothy 6:15 "He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see."

Paul wrote the book of 1 Timothy around 62-66 AD. So this is approximately 30 years after Christ's death. And still he is preaching that God is the only one who has immortality.

We *could* say that this is strictly talking about the body and not the spirit as David Taylor has explained. No flesh and blood body will inherit the kingdom, nor does any flesh and blood body have immortality. That is obvious. So if it is speaking only of the body and the spirit is indeed immortal, what does that say about the wicked?

Some people believe that the soul and spirit are the same thing. Well, that causes a problem, in my opinion. If they are one in the same, and we know that ALL living things have a spirit (breath of life), then we know that the spirit (of ALL living things) return to the Father who gave it when they die. (Eccl 12:7, Job 12:10). Don't even the wicked have a spirit (breath of life)? Yes! They wouldn't be breathing. Certainly we cannot believe that the wicked are dwelling in heaven with the Father.

So it would seem the only alternative is to believe there is a soul and there is a spirit.

Where does that leave us?

Hi David,

Please know that I am not being argumentative in this post. I am just trying to iron out the details. I thank you for your patience. :)


You say there are absolutely no verses about going to heaven when we die...yet you've been shown alot by others in this thread.

Not sure how to help you if you want to blanketly not accept them.


I will have to respectfully disagree. The verses that have been presented speak about God's dwelling place being heaven. But there is no verse in Scripture that says specifically that "we will go to heaven when we die." The verses presented in this thread are where Steven gave up his spirit, where Jesus gave up his, where Paul says to be absent from the body AND be present with the Lord etc., and the souls under the altar, but each of these are debatable.

The souls under the altar: Revelation is a complicated book that is not taken literal by many. I am not one to jump completely on that bandwagon, however, as I think some parts ARE literal. The souls under the altar in Rev. could be symbolic and not a literal occurance of souls up in heaven laying underneath an altar. Also, they are told to "rest" a little longer. Is "rest" not sleep? It doesn't necessarily have to be that, but it's food for thought. Too, if they are bodiless, how are they able to communicate? This just seems a little out there to be literal. It seems very symbolic and prophetic to me.

Regarding Steven and giving up his spirit: We still haven't resolved the issue with what the spirit is. Is it the same as the soul? And if it is, and we believe we go to heaven when we die, then the wicked are in heaven with God....since ALL spirits return to the Father at death. This can't be, obviously. (The wicked in heaven).

A good argument to me: Paul's two statements about wanting to depart from his body and be with the Lord are two very strong statements, I totally agree. But there is a debate amongst Scholars as well as the Early Church as to what Paul truly meant by this. I'll come back to this later.

So know that I am not ignoring his words at all. In fact, his words are what keep me hanging on to the "heaven-going" idea. :)

BUT... all of Scripture must harmonize...and that is what I am desiring for my peace of mind and understanding. So let me address some of your posts that I haven't yet, if you are still interested in responding. I know it's time consuming.





Except that many verses show the dead being conscious and aware apart from their dead bodies, after death. So either there must be confusion on where/how the terms for soul/spirit are being used.


There are many verses? I know of a couple, like the souls under the altar and Lazarus and the Rich Man parable. But these both are questionable as being literal. I am not opposed to the idea that souls are conscious at death. Perhaps Paradise is below the surface of the earth, as Butch has mentioned, and the souls are here? Psalm 139 says that even if we go down into hades, God is there. We never leave his presence. He did mention the concept of the earth being an altar...and the souls in Paradise are "under the altar." But I am not arguing FOR that at this point. I haven't studied it.



And for the believer, that place is with the Lord, who is in Heaven as Stephen saw. For the unbeliever, it is in hell in the conscoiusly tormented fames and agony.


If the unbeliever is already in hell (flames and agony), then this means they have already been judged. Scripture says they will not be judged until the Last Day.

John 12:48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

Romans 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done." ....But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

If the wicked are already in hell, "burning in flames"...I'm not sure what more wrath could be poured out. :confused It seems by these verses that God's judment will not come till this day.

* storing up wrath for the day of God's wrath
* Judgment Will BE revelealed (future tense)
* God WILL give according to what we have done. (future tense)

Part 2 below....

Well, I have the same questions as you. All I can go by is what is in Scripture. And the rest of that verse says:

1 Cor 15:50 "I tell you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

At the Last Trumpet, the dead are raised IMPERISHABLE, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the MORTAL with IMMORTALITY.

1 Timothy 6:15 "He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see."

Paul wrote the book of 1 Timothy around 62-66 AD. So this is approximately 30 years after Christ's death. And still he is preaching that God is the only one who has immortality.

We *could* say that this is strictly talking about the body and not the spirit as David Taylor has explained. No flesh and blood body will inherit the kingdom, nor does any flesh and blood body have immortality. That is obvious. So if it is speaking only of the body and the spirit is indeed immortal, what does that say about the wicked?

Some people believe that the soul and spirit are the same thing. Well, that causes a problem, in my opinion. If they are one in the same, and we know that ALL living things have a spirit (breath of life), then we know that the spirit (of ALL living things) return to the Father who gave it when they die. (Eccl 12:7, Job 12:10). Don't even the wicked have a spirit (breath of life)? Yes! They wouldn't be breathing. Certainly we cannot believe that the wicked are dwelling in heaven with the Father.

So it would seem the only alternative is to believe there is a soul and there is a spirit.

Where does that leave us?

Thanks Alyssa,

I guess we'll just have to do some more studying and see where the Spirit leads us.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Part 2....:)


My take on this (generally) was that the O.T. didn't reveal awhole lot about going to heaven....it wasn't so much the topic of discussion, nor expounded upon nearly to the level that Christ and the NT writers did later in the NT.

The OT guys did know that being faithful meant they would be forever with the Lord...not in a state of unconscious separation from the Lord.


And I am not arguing FOR "Separation from the Lord." As I have posted already, Psalm 139 tells us that wherever we go we can not flee from his presence... even if it is down in hades (grave) or Paradise.



King David
Psa 23:6 "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever."

He knew that God would both be with him in this life, and forever more....dwelling in the house of the Lord forever isn't being unconscious or alone in the ground for the last 3000 years, is it?


I have never believed that we would be alone in the grave/hades...(Paradise?). Again Psalm 139. Let me ask you, if one who is a believer falls into a coma of unconsciousness for several days, several weeks, months or even years, does that separate him from dwelling in the house of the Lord or from his presence? Of course not. What about when we lay our head down at night to sleep, as we are unconscious, are we not still dwelling in the house of the Lord? Are we not still in his presence? To be unconscious is not to be separated, because NOTHING can separate us from his presence...no matter where we go. I think even if we DO sleep in the Lord... we are not alone...but with him in his care as evidenced by Scripture.



Job 36:7 "He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted."

While Job knew his body would go to the grave awaiting the resurrection; he also knew that the rightoues are also established and exalted forever with Lord....hard to do for 'forever' if one's spirit remains unconscious and trapped alone inside the tomb with one's body for 4000 years like Job's old bones.


Again, we cannot escape his presence, even in the grave...the depths... He is THERE. I am not sure being "established in him" would contradict one being in the grave. Being established by the "Seed" of the Holy Spirit, one is awaiting the Resurrection. This is the blessed hope of all of the Saints.


Isaiah
Isaiah 26:3 "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee. Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength"

Isaiah expected to be able to trust in the Lord forever, to be kept in peach and His everlasting strength. He didn't know alot about heaven in his day, but Isaiah knew the Lord wouldn't abandon him in the ground for 2800 years...but rather, that the Lord would be Isaiah's strength forever.

Matthew
Matt 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

If Jesus is truly with His people always, then what of Stephen who died 2000 years ago? Has Stephen's spirit been unconscious and alone in the grave for 2000 years, or has he always been with the Lord?


Again, Psalm 139.



Acts 7:55 "But Stephen, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Stephen was a great example revealed to us in the NT of the spirit going to the Lord's presence at death.


I agree that Stephen's spirit went to be with the Lord. But could what he had seen been a VISION...a promise of what was to come on Resurrection Day? Visions were not uncommon of that time. The Mount of Transfiguration was a VISION and many mistake it as something more. Moses and Elijah's "appearing" at the Transfiguration was simply a vision.

"And as they were coming down from the mountain Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the VISION to no man until the Son of man be risen from the dead."


Here is another good example given to David. When contemplating his own death, what was David's hope? To be abandoned unconsciouly in the grave for thousands of years? No....hardly.

Psa 73:23 "Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever."


Amen! I don't think David thought he would be abandoned to the grave since he is the one who wrote Psalm 139... and knew that no matter where he was, he would never escape the presence of the Lord.


David knew when his infant son died, that his son couldn't return to him, but he would eventually go to be reunited in the presence with his son at death.

2 Samuel 12:22 "And David said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."


I don't have a problem with this verse. However, I can't be certain that he would be reunited with his son immediately at death...in heaven. What exactly does "I shall go to him" mean? Did David go to heaven to see his son?

Acts 2:29
"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.... :34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand;"

John 3:13
"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven-the Son of Man."
I believe the book of John was written 70 years after Jesus' Resurrection. And still, there is no record of anyone going into heaven except for Messiah.

Did David really expect to see his son immediately after death in heaven?

Psalm 6:4-5, a Psalm of David. He wrote:
Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

"RETURN" O Lord? DELIVER my SOUL? Save me?
FOR..... for what?
For in DEATH there is no remembrance of thee
In the grave who shall give thanks?

If David was in heaven with Jesus, then why is he so concerned about what his corpse can't do? That makes absolutely no sense to me.
It would seem that David's words here harmonize with the words of John 3:13 that says NO-One has EVER gone into heaven, EXCEPT Jesus.

And in Psalm 13:3 David compares death with sleep.
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

And in 17:15 he expects to awake and see the Lord.
As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Why would he only be satisified when he awoke? What about when he died and went to heaven to be in the presence of the Lord?? It would *seem* that David knew of the future resurrection and he expected to see the Lord at that time, when he awoke. He again mentions this in...

Psalm 71:20
Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.
Not bring me down from heaven, but bring me up from the depths of the earth.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.


We have far more verses that say we will NOT go to heaven or that we do not have immortality, than we do that say we WILL go to heaven...of which we don't even have one that clearly says so. What we DO know is that Christ BRINGS his Kingdom FROM heaven to us on the Last Day at the Resurrection. Scripture clearly tells us this. I can be 100% certain of this...as I'm sure you will agree.

What leaves me puzzled is the Apostle's words. Paul has the strongest suggestions of heaven-going with his two verses. Other than that, we have a whole slew-full in the OT and NT about the grave and the "blessed hope" being the Resurrection on the Last Day... not heaven going...but heaven COMING. :confused

That's all for now. There are still some posts of yours that I need to reply to, but I don't want to burden you with too much. I know this is already terribly long. Thanks again for your efforts and patience! :)

God bless you,
Alyssa

Hey Butch... I don't think that's what it means.

At death, a person's spirit returns to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7)... If you look up the Greek, this is the "breath of life." (pneuma). Considering that all spirits return to the Lord at death as Eccl 12 says, then I think it would be safe to conclude that is what's happening here.

My question is if there is a difference between spirit and soul. If ALL living things return to the God... and "ALL" means the wicked as well as the righteous, then it would be natural to think that there IS a difference between soul and spirit.

We cannot get around the fact that God tells us ALL living things have the breath of life... and when ALL living things die, the spirit (breath of life) returns to where it came from. Certainly the wicked are not with God in heaven. So it would seem, to me, that the spirit that's returning is the breath and not soul. So I am led to believe that the soul and spirit are separate.

"In whose hand is the life of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:10)

For me, this is a big one to get around.

Any thoughts David?


God bless,
Alyssa

Hi Alyssa,

Yes, every soul returns to God. OK, now, as you said the wicked are not in heaven. So, how can every soul return to God? Here's how,


Psalms 139:8 ( KJV ) 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

The Greek word for hell is Hades, Scripture, here, David, tells us that God is in Hades, so, if every soul, both the righteous and the unrighteous, go to Hades, then every soul does return to God. However, if God only in heaven, then how do the wicked souls return to God?

Alyssa---The souls under the altar: Revelation is a complicated book that is not taken literal by many. I am not one to jump completely on that bandwagon, however, as I think some parts ARE literal. The souls under the altar in Rev. could be symbolic and not a literal occurance of souls up in heaven laying underneath an altar. Also, they are told to "rest" a little longer. Is "rest" not sleep? It doesn't necessarily have to be that, but it's food for thought. Too, if they are bodiless, how are they able to communicate? This just seems a little out there to be literal. It seems very symbolic and prophetic to me.


There are many verses? I know of a couple, like the souls under the altar and Lazarus and the Rich Man parable. But these both are questionable as being literal. I am not opposed to the idea that souls are conscious at death. Perhaps Paradise is below the surface of the earth, as Butch has mentioned, and the souls are here? Psalm 139 says that even if we go down into hades, God is there. We never leave his presence. He did mention the concept of the earth being an altar...and the souls in Paradise are "under the altar." But I am not arguing FOR that at this point. I haven't studied it.

Hi Alyssa,

As you have stated it does appear that the alter is the earth, this is a quote from Victorinus,

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7

9. “And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain.”] He relates that he saw under the altar of God, that is, under the earth, the souls of them that were slain. For both heaven and earth are called God’s altar, as saith the law, commanding in the symbolical form of the truth two altars to be made,—a golden one within, and a brazen one without. But we perceive that the golden altar is thus called heaven, by the testimony that our Lord bears to it; for He says, “When thou bringest thy gift to the altar” (assuredly our gifts are the prayers which we offer), “and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar.” (Matt. 5:23, 34) Assuredly prayers ascend to heaven. Therefore heaven is understood to be the golden altar which was within; for the priests also were accustomed to enter once in the year—as they who had the anointing—to the golden altar, the Holy Spirit signifying that Christ should do this once for all. As the golden altar is acknowledged to be heaven, so also by the brazen altar is understood the earth, under which is the Hades,—a region withdrawn from punishments and fires, and a place of repose for the saints, wherein indeed the righteous are seen and heard by the wicked, but they cannot be carried across to them. He who sees all things would have us to know that these saints, therefore—that is, the souls of the slain—are asking for vengeance for their blood, that is, of their body, from those that dwell upon the earth; but because in the last time, moreover, the reward of the saints will be perpetual, and the condemnation of the wicked shall come, it was told them to wait. And for a solace to their body, there were given unto each of them white robes. They received, says he, white robes, that is, the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Alyssa---The souls under the altar: Revelation is a complicated book that is not taken literal by many. I am not one to jump completely on that bandwagon, however, as I think some parts ARE literal. The souls under the altar in Rev. could be symbolic and not a literal occurance of souls up in heaven laying underneath an altar. Also, they are told to "rest" a little longer. Is "rest" not sleep? It doesn't necessarily have to be that, but it's food for thought. Too, if they are bodiless, how are they able to communicate? This just seems a little out there to be literal. It seems very symbolic and prophetic to me.


There are many verses? I know of a couple, like the souls under the altar and Lazarus and the Rich Man parable. But these both are questionable as being literal. I am not opposed to the idea that souls are conscious at death. Perhaps Paradise is below the surface of the earth, as Butch has mentioned, and the souls are here? Psalm 139 says that even if we go down into hades, God is there. We never leave his presence. He did mention the concept of the earth being an altar...and the souls in Paradise are "under the altar." But I am not arguing FOR that at this point. I haven't studied it.

Hi Alyssa,

As you have stated it does appear that the alter is the earth, this is a quote from Victorinus,

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7

9. “And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain.”] He relates that he saw under the altar of God, that is, under the earth, the souls of them that were slain. For both heaven and earth are called God’s altar, as saith the law, commanding in the symbolical form of the truth two altars to be made,—a golden one within, and a brazen one without. But we perceive that the golden altar is thus called heaven, by the testimony that our Lord bears to it; for He says, “When thou bringest thy gift to the altar” (assuredly our gifts are the prayers which we offer), “and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar.” (Matt. 5:23, 34) Assuredly prayers ascend to heaven. Therefore heaven is understood to be the golden altar which was within; for the priests also were accustomed to enter once in the year—as they who had the anointing—to the golden altar, the Holy Spirit signifying that Christ should do this once for all. As the golden altar is acknowledged to be heaven, so also by the brazen altar is understood the earth, under which is the Hades,—a region withdrawn from punishments and fires, and a place of repose for the saints, wherein indeed the righteous are seen and heard by the wicked, but they cannot be carried across to them. He who sees all things would have us to know that these saints, therefore—that is, the souls of the slain—are asking for vengeance for their blood, that is, of their body, from those that dwell upon the earth; but because in the last time, moreover, the reward of the saints will be perpetual, and the condemnation of the wicked shall come, it was told them to wait. And for a solace to their body, there were given unto each of them white robes. They received, says he, white robes, that is, the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Hey Butch,

Thanks for this. I will have to study it some more.

But here is the problem I have. I know that I said in a previous post that I was not opposed to the souls being conscious, and I am not sure why I said that. I guess because I was thinking of what you were suggesting with Paradise being under the surface of the earth, which it MAY be.

But, here is the problem:


Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

I won't bother listing all the other ones as there are too many and this, I believe, is sufficient to express the point. David says many times how the dead go down into silence and how the dead cannot praise the Lord because they know nothing at all. It would seem to me, a big contradiction, if we are to say the souls of the dead are conscious. I still think there is a great possibility that this verse in Revelations is symbolic of what is actually occuring in Paradise or Hades. Were souls actually talking? I doubt it. Not just because I have a hunch... but because David said they wouldn't be. But I think this is symbolic of what will actually be taking place at that time.

But of course, I am still not sure. Again, I am simply trying to find harmony with all of the verses that speak on this topic. If you have anything else to share on that which could shed some light, I am teachable. :)

Thanks and God bless,
Alyssa

Alyssa---The souls under the altar: Revelation is a complicated book that is not taken literal by many. I am not one to jump completely on that bandwagon, .
I'm one of those that takes the whole Bible in a historical, literal common sense way using the common rules of English. If something makes plain sense seek no other sense. If something doesn't make plain sense, study to find out why. In such a way, I'm not a literalist in the sense that EVERYTHING is literal in the Word, only the things that make sense.
If we have souls and they are seen under an alter then that makes sense enough to be taken literally. The only thing would be of what do we believe the soul consist of.
If it says the Lord arrives on a white horse then I believe He arrives on a white horse. I assume the sword that comes from His mouth is not a real sword, yet is probably His Word instead which comes from His mouth..
Other things are not so plain, such as the beast assembling the kings of the earth. Kings of the earth is very plain whereas led by an actual beast is not. etc I don't believe one has to spiritualize everything just because they don't understand something.


For example why spiritualize everything a mystery novel says if reading it as a mystery novel makes better sense.

Having said that though I'm sure I will never understand the Word as plain as I could understand a mystery novel, although it makes it alot easier. Most assuredly, I can say with the saints before me that evenuntil my last breath or the Lord comes, I'll never have a clear and perfect understanding of the Holy Book.

Hello all

It might be worth bearing in mind that the term "soul sleep" was popularised by the French reformer Jean Calvin to ridicule the belief that the soul dies and the dead sleep (not "soul sleep") held by such as the German reformer Martin Luther. A Bible verse search provides plenty of "soul.. die, dead... sleep" verses, but not one "soul.. sleep" verse.

Wikipedia article on "soul sleep" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep)

That article also gives a long list of Bible verses, which is unusal for Wikipedia. And a few quotes from Luther, Tyndale and Milton. Though not including my favourite:


But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong, sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truly is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11; Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus, too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv. 42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body.—"Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, in Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp. 287, 288.

This set of Luther's burial hymns (Christliche Gesänge lateinisch und deutsch, zum Begräbnis 1542) is distinctive for a repeated emphasis on resurrection rather than heaven, and it influenced the language of later German burial music, through Heinrich Schütz even to Bach and Brahms. Look at any North German graveyard and the 16th and 17th Century gravestones make repeated reference to death, sleep, resurrection, but not to having "gone" anywhere. The same is true, to a lesser extent, of the English village gravestones of Shakespeare and Cromwell's time.

Then we have a period during the 18th and 19th Centuries where belief in heaven going becomes more dominant again, up to modern Anglicanism, Methodism etc, where views such as Towards the Conversion of England, (1945) open up the debate in the Anglican church, leading to N.T. Wright's return to Luther, Tyndale and Milton's view: [/URL]

[URL="http://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821/"]Bishop of Durham's book on "soul sleep" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep)

There's related material in his commentary on 2 Corinthians (chapter 5) and elsewhere.
God bless
Steven



btw - has anyone on this thread asked why anyone would want to go to heaven if you can't actually do anything to help those you leave behind? It would be a different matter if Protestants believed as Catholics that the dead (or at least "saints") in heaven can do things to help those on earth. But Protestants don't believe that. So why would anyone want to be able to see what's happening on earth and not able to do anything about it? (Am I missing something?)

[quote=Steven3;2012561]
This set of Luther's burial hymns (Christliche Gesänge lateinisch und deutsch, zum Begräbnis 1542) is distinctive for a repeated emphasis on resurrection rather than heaven, and it influenced the language of later German burial music, through Heinrich Schütz even to Bach and Brahms.


Yes, I have read the music of both of these men, and they definitely did not believe in heaven-going. Bach's music was focused on the Resurrection.


Look at any North German graveyard and the 16th and 17th Century gravestones make repeated reference to death, sleep, resurrection, but not to having "gone" anywhere. The same is true, to a lesser extent, of the English village gravestones of Shakespeare and Cromwell's time.


Also, Queen Elizabeth (1559) and George Washington believed that the soul would sleep. George Washington spoke much about it in his Prayer Journal. (But this doesn't make it true, obviously). Too, the gravestones prior to the 18th centry all faced EAST...as they wanted to be facing in the direction that the Son of Man would be coming for the Resurrection... "As the sun comes from the east, so will be the coming of the Son of Man..."

Interesting food for thought.

Thanks for your post!

Still working it all out. :)

Hello all

It might be worth bearing in mind that the term "soul sleep" was popularised by the French reformer Jean Calvin to ridicule the belief that the soul dies and the dead sleep (not "soul sleep") held by such as the German reformer Martin Luther. A Bible verse search provides plenty of "soul.. die, dead... sleep" verses, but not one "soul.. sleep" verse.


Sorry, I forget that you believe that the soul actually dies. But if that is the case, then how do we have eternal life? If we have eternal life, then the soul will not die... in my opinion. Not sure how it could.

But then.... the bible says no man hath immortality except God.

Wow!! :lol: I know the answer is there somewhere!

It all has to harmonize!! Still seeking.....

Hi Alyssa
That souls "die" is primarily an OT idea, because in the Hebrew a nephesh (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5315&t=KJV) just means creature. Otherwise we wouldn't have Adam and the animals being made a "living" soul (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5315&t=KJV), and Numbers 6:6 talking of touching a dead soul (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5315&t=KJV). But the idea carries through into the Greek OT
Ezekiel 18:4 LXX ἡ ψυχὴ ἡ ἁμαρτάνουσα αὕτη ἀποθανεῖται
e psyche e amartanousa aute apothaneitai
the soul (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5590&t=KJV) which sins will die.

When Herod seeks the child's soul (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5590&t=KJV), clearly Herod can only attack/kill something belonging to the physical world. Likewise when the Good Shepherd lays down his soul (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5590&t=KJV) for the sheep.

The main problem with that would be: Matt 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." Which if one believes that Gehenna (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1067&t=KJV) exists now doesn't make sense. But since the penultimate verse of Isaiah demonstrates that Gehenna is future, then there's no problem.



But if that is the case, then how do we have eternal life? There's probably a list somewhere of all the things believers "have" after belief, which in reality we don't actually literally physically "have" yet, just have to look at the context of surrounding verses.

1 Tim 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

God bless
S.

Let's see, God breathes the breath of life into the body and it becomes a living soul.

2000 souls were lost at sea...(people?) They died.

Hi Alyssa
That souls "die" is primarily an OT idea, because in the Hebrew a nephesh (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5315&t=KJV) just means creature.


And this is where it gets interesting. Nephesh means creature, but it also means life, breath, mind - will- emotions, heart, and the inward man. I guess we can know that without a spirit (breath of life) there is no soul. Correct? Because once God breathed the breath of life, man became a living soul.


Otherwise we wouldn't have Adam and the animals being made a "living" soul (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5315&t=KJV), and Numbers 6:6 talking of touching a dead soul (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5315&t=KJV).

Yes, I remember studying this a while back. One example is John 10:15 - "I lay down my (life) for my sheep." "Psuche" is the Greek for the English word, "life," and it is the SOUL. But still we recognize the soul as the seat of the personality (mind, will emotions). :confused



But the idea carries through into the Greek OT
Ezekiel 18:4 LXX ἡ ψυχὴ ἡ ἁμαρτάνουσα αὕτη ἀποθανεῖται
e psyche e amartanousa aute apothaneitai
the soul (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5590&t=KJV) which sins will die.

When Herod seeks the child's soul (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5590&t=KJV), clearly Herod can only attack/kill something belonging to the physical world. Likewise when the Good Shepherd lays down his soul (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5590&t=KJV) for the sheep.


How funny! Somehow I missed your John 10:15 verse. :confused
But yes, I see where you are coming from.


The main problem with that would be: Matt 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

And this appears somewhat complicated. What to make of that?



Which if one believes that Gehenna (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1067&t=KJV) exists now doesn't make sense. But since the penultimate verse of Isaiah demonstrates that Gehenna is future, then there's no problem.


Well yah, because John 12:48 says no one will be condemned or judged until Jesus returns on the Last Day. So I am not sure how people are in the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna now.



There's probably a list somewhere of all the things believers "have" after belief, which in reality we don't actually literally physically "have" yet, just have to look at the context of surrounding verses.


This is a very good point. Salvation is one of them... as well as the Adoption of sons.

In Ephesians 1:5 Paul reveals the "past tense" aspect of our adoption as sons.
In Romans, Paul explains the present tense aspect of adoption as sons .
Again in Romans 8 ,Paul writes of the future tense aspect of our adoption as sons...

"And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons.

We will not fully realize our salvation or Adoption as sons until we are Resurrected, though we have salvation now.

Good point.

Thanks for the posts... I have some stuff to chew on. If this doctrine is true, it is still hard for me to get around Paul's verses... his desire to depart and be with the Lord. I realize if one were to sleep in death, time would be of no issue as we would not even know how much time had passed. It is the same when we are knocked out for surgery. We have no concept of time. We go to sleep, and it's like we immediately wake up.

Here are Paul's verses:

Philippians 1:21, 23
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better

But then... there is this verse.

Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

It would seem here that Paul's hope and focus was on the Resurrection, not going to heaven when he died. So what does he mean by Phil 1:21?


God bless,
Alyssa

I'm one of those that takes the whole Bible in a historical, literal common sense way using the common rules of English. If something makes plain sense seek no other sense. If something doesn't make plain sense, study to find out why. In such a way, I'm not a literalist in the sense that EVERYTHING is literal in the Word, only the things that make sense.
If we have souls and they are seen under an alter then that makes sense enough to be taken literally. The only thing would be of what do we believe the soul consist of.
If it says the Lord arrives on a white horse then I believe He arrives on a white horse. I assume the sword that comes from His mouth is not a real sword, yet is probably His Word instead which comes from His mouth..
Other things are not so plain, such as the beast assembling the kings of the earth. Kings of the earth is very plain whereas led by an actual beast is not. etc I don't believe one has to spiritualize everything just because they don't understand something.


For example why spiritualize everything a mystery novel says if reading it as a mystery novel makes better sense.

Having said that though I'm sure I will never understand the Word as plain as I could understand a mystery novel, although it makes it alot easier. Most assuredly, I can say with the saints before me that evenuntil my last breath or the Lord comes, I'll never have a clear and perfect understanding of the Holy Book.

I agree, and take the word basically the way. However I do look to the early church for understanding when things are not clear. When we have Scripture that says no one is in heaven and then we have souls under the altar, the question arises, where is the altar?

Hey Butch,

Thanks for this. I will have to study it some more.

But here is the problem I have. I know that I said in a previous post that I was not opposed to the souls being conscious, and I am not sure why I said that. I guess because I was thinking of what you were suggesting with Paradise being under the surface of the earth, which it MAY be.

But, here is the problem:


Psa 115:17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

I won't bother listing all the other ones as there are too many and this, I believe, is sufficient to express the point. David says many times how the dead go down into silence and how the dead cannot praise the Lord because they know nothing at all. It would seem to me, a big contradiction, if we are to say the souls of the dead are conscious. I still think there is a great possibility that this verse in Revelations is symbolic of what is actually occuring in Paradise or Hades. Were souls actually talking? I doubt it. Not just because I have a hunch... but because David said they wouldn't be. But I think this is symbolic of what will actually be taking place at that time.

But of course, I am still not sure. Again, I am simply trying to find harmony with all of the verses that speak on this topic. If you have anything else to share on that which could shed some light, I am teachable. :)

Thanks and God bless,
Alyssa

Just a quick look but here is what the Septuagint says,

16 The heaven of heavens belongs to the Lord: but he has given the earth to the sons of men. 17 The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord, nor any that go down to Hades. 18 But we, the living, will bless the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.
16 The heaven of heavens belongs to the Lord: but he has given the earth to the sons of men. 17 The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord, nor any that go down to Hades. 18 But we, the living, will bless the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

This is interesting as David says only the living will praise the Lord. David also differentiates between the dead and any that go down to Hades.

Here are Paul's verses:
Philippians 1:21, 23
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better

But then... there is this verse.
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

It would seem here that Paul's hope and focus was on the Resurrection, not going to heaven when he died. So what does he mean by Phil 1:21?Well Paul can't have his cake and eat it in the same letter.

Tom Wright comments on the apparent contradiction in his commentary (http://www.amazon.com/Paul-Everyone-Ephesians-Philippians-Colossians/dp/0664227880).

The key is probably that "with Christ" in 1:21 represents a state of politeuma (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %2384507) (πολίτευμα) identity, belonging, citizenship, along the lines of the Old Testament "name in the book of life" idea. So in 3:20 when Paul says that "our conversation" (Greek politeuma πολίτευμα, citizenship) is in heaven "from where" (ex ou ἐξ οὗ) we await Christ's coming, it dovetails perfectly with "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead."

I've linked the LSJ Oxford classical Greek dictionary under politeuma (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %2384507) above to give an idea of Paul's thinking. One of the more interesting connections is the use for "corporate body of citizens resident in a foreign city", shich connects to the idea of the living being strangers and pilgrims, waiting for the new Jerusalem to descend.

It's something akin to a green-card. Except in Paul's mind America comes to the immigrants, rather than the immigrants have to go to America.


Hi Butch

115:17 (Greek OT) The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord, nor any that go down to Hades.

...David also differentiates between the dead and any that go down to Hades.Interesting that the Greek OT has "Hades" where the Hebrew MT has "Silence" (dumah, only other use Ps94:17 also of death). Since "Hades" is more common, presumably it's a gloss or copying error and "silence" is the original. But yes, the same thing - as Ps94:17 shows.

But it's not a particularly strong differentation, since this participle "nor" (kal כָּל , sorry no link, as it won't show up in Strongs or electronically indexed Bibles) isn't always the same as "neither" in English. It is often used with mild repetition "thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him", and in this case if the Hebrew OT is correct and the Greek OT the error then the differentation is not between "dead" and "those who go to somewhere else" but simply "nor" (kal כָּל) marking off the contrast of opposites between "praise" and "silence"

Well Paul can't have his cake and eat it in the same letter.

Tom Wright comments on the apparent contradiction in his commentary (http://www.amazon.com/Paul-Everyone-Ephesians-Philippians-Colossians/dp/0664227880).

The key is probably that "with Christ" in 1:21 represents a state of politeuma (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %2384507) (πολίτευμα) identity, belonging, citizenship, along the lines of the Old Testament "name in the book of life" idea. So in 3:20 when Paul says that "our conversation" (Greek politeuma πολίτευμα, citizenship) is in heaven "from where" (ex ou ἐξ οὗ) we await Christ's coming, it dovetails perfectly with "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead."

I've linked the LSJ Oxford classical Greek dictionary under politeuma (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %2384507) above to give an idea of Paul's thinking. One of the more interesting connections is the use for "corporate body of citizens resident in a foreign city", shich connects to the idea of the living being strangers and pilgrims, waiting for the new Jerusalem to descend.

It's something akin to a green-card. Except in Paul's mind America comes to the immigrants, rather than the immigrants have to go to America.


Hi Butch
Interesting that the Greek OT has "Hades" where the Hebrew MT has "Silence" (dumah, only other use Ps94:17 also of death). Since "Hades" is more common, presumably it's a gloss or copying error and "silence" is the original. But yes, the same thing - as Ps94:17 shows.

But it's not a particularly strong differentation, since this participle "nor" (kal כָּל , sorry no link, as it won't show up in Strongs or electronically indexed Bibles) isn't always the same as "neither" in English. It is often used with mild repetition "thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him", and in this case if the Hebrew OT is correct and the Greek OT the error then the differentation is not between "dead" and "those who go to somewhere else" but simply "nor" (kal כָּל) marking off the contrast of opposites between "praise" and "silence"

I'll take the Septuagint over the MT any day, as I believe the MT to be corrupted. If there is an error, my bet is that it is the MT.

I agree, and take the word basically the way. However I do look to the early church for understanding when things are not clear. When we have Scripture that says no one is in heaven

And noone, except Jesus, is presently "bodily" in heaven... only the souls of believers who are absent from the body and present with the Lord are there now.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Even John didn't bodily go to heaven when writing Revelation, but was caught up in a vision... not caporeal.


and then we have souls under the altar, the question arises, where is the altar?
chapters 4, 8 & 9 give the answer to "where" the altar is...

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God

Hi David Taylor,

I am not sure if you overlooked it, but do you have time to address my posts to you, #79 and #81?

I am specifically wondering how the soul and spirit can be the same thing, knowing that ALL spirits will return to the Father at death...as per Scripture. If ALL spirits return to heaven at death, and we believe the soul and the spirit are one in the same, then this would mean the wicked are in heaven with God. And of course, that cannot be.

Eccl 12:7 and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.


Any thoughts?

God bless,
Alyssa

The "Place" is actually a CALLING - like when the pastor says there's a "Place" for you in his church, he DOESN'T mean to bring a cot into the Narthex and live there. My "place" for the last three years has been that of Deacon, and Worship team member.

The "Mansions in glory" thing is nothing more than "Cotton patch gospel". The "Place" that he's preparing is your MINISTRY here, and "My Father's House" is better rendered "in my Father's FAMILY".

Hi David Taylor,

I am not sure if you overlooked it, but do you have time to address my posts to you, #79 and #81?

I am specifically wondering how the soul and spirit can be the same thing, knowing that ALL spirits will return to the Father at death...as per Scripture. If ALL spirits return to heaven at death, and we believe the soul and the spirit are one in the same, then this would mean the wicked are in heaven with God. And of course, that cannot be.

Eccl 12:7 and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.


Any thoughts?

God bless,
Alyssa


It's because the terms aren't used in a consistent manner, and the terms that the common population uses for them don't match how they are always defined in the scriptures.

If you were to poll people walking on the streetcorner, in today's common vernacular, 'soul' and 'spirit' are most often used interchangeably to denote the immaterial, non-physical aspect of a person.

Sure we know there are times when sayings, and even scripture verses uses 'soul' to denote the body, or the body-spirit unit.

So, we don't have to believe that the wicked go to heaven.

We can know from scripture, that their destination is an abode of suffering and torment removed from the presence of the Lord.

So what you ultimately have is this:

1) the general breath of life, which God gives all living creatures, making their bodies exist (which at their bodies death, returns so to speak, back to God...and doesn't remain with the dead corpse).

2) the immaterial spirit/soul of a person which differentiates us from the animals being made in God's own image which at death leaves the body, and those of believers go to be with the Lord, and those of unbelievers go to torment

3) the body itself, which goes to the grave, to await the resurrection, and its reuniting with the spirit/soul in an immortal, glorified, incorruptible new body like Jesus' own was.

So the wicked never go to Heaven. Neither their material or immaterial aspects.

So what Ecc and Job are referring to above, is God's life-giving force that he bestows upon each creature, from the butterfly, to both just and unjust men, to the mighty hippo...to make it live....not it's immaterial essence that truly is it, made in God's own image...because only humans have that.

Only man, however, has an immortal soul/spirit made in God's image.

That is the part that either goes to the Lord's presence or goes to torment at death; and awaits the resurrection of the body.

What causes most of the conflict within SDA teachings and circles, is because of the inconsistency of when and how the words 'soul', 'spirit', and 'breath' are used interchangeably in various places...and not consistently.

But when examined in context with all scriptures, the truth is born out.

And noone, except Jesus, is presently "bodily" in heaven... only the souls of believers who are absent from the body and present with the Lord are there now.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Even John didn't bodily go to heaven when writing Revelation, but was caught up in a vision... not caporeal.

Jesus didn't say no one is "bodily" in heaven except the Son of man, He said, no one. This fits with the rest of Scripture. Whic says we go to Hades. Samuel came up, David is not ascended into the heavens.


chapters 4, 8 & 9 give the answer to "where" the altar is...

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God

Yes, and if you read the quote by Victorinus, he states that the golden altar is in heaven and the brazen alter is the earth.

Hi David Taylor,

I am not sure if you overlooked it, but do you have time to address my posts to you, #79 and #81?

I am specifically wondering how the soul and spirit can be the same thing, knowing that ALL spirits will return to the Father at death...as per Scripture. If ALL spirits return to heaven at death, and we believe the soul and the spirit are one in the same, then this would mean the wicked are in heaven with God. And of course, that cannot be.

Eccl 12:7 and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.


Any thoughts?

God bless,
Alyssa

Hi Alyssa,

I don't know if you have done this, but I would look at those verses that you were speaking of, in the Septuagint, quite often the Septuagint reads differently, and the Septuagint is the Bible that Jesus and the Apostles used. I am including a link to an online copy.

Butch

http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/

Yes, and if you read the quote by Victorinus, he states that the golden altar is in heaven and the brazen alter is the earth.

The context of John who wrote revelation, is the altar in Heaven.

John mentions no altar of souls being in the grave or under the earth...only the altar by God's throne within His heavenly temple.

1) the general breath of life, which God gives all living creatures, making their bodies exist (which at their bodies death, returns so to speak, back to God...and doesn't remain with the dead corpse).


Yes! So you would agree that what you are speaking of above is the spirit (breath of life) and NOT the soul? Eccl 12:7 - "and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it."




2) the immaterial spirit/soul of a person which differentiates us from the animals being made in God's own image which at death leaves the body, and those of believers go to be with the Lord, and those of unbelievers go to torment


What is the verse that says the soul goes to heaven? Obviously, Eccl 12:7 is the spirit (breath of life).

So you are saying we have the breath of life going back to the Lord.
And then we also have the soul going back to the Lord as well?

I am obviously missing the two different verses.



So the wicked never go to Heaven. Neither their material or immaterial aspects.


Their breath of life does (spirit). Agreed? (Eccl 12:7)



That is the part that either goes to the Lord's presence or goes to torment at death; and awaits the resurrection of the body.


1.) Could you show me the verse in the OT that says the soul goes to heaven?
2.) Also, could you show me the verse that says the soul of the wicked goes to torment at death?

3.) How can the wicked already be in torment if the day of Judgment hasn't even come yet?

I asked before, but perhaps you overlooked it, John 12:48 says:

John 12:48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

Romans 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done." ....But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

If the wicked are already in torment, "burning in flames"...and the righteous are in heaven, then they have already been judged, and Scripture says Judgment is on the Last Day after Christ Resurrects the Dead. Also, what more wrath could possibly be poured out on the wicked, than burning in flames and separation from God? This is their destiny, and from what you are saying, it has already happened. Doesn't add up Scripturally unless I am missing a verse.

* storing up wrath for the day of God's wrath (present tense and future tense)
* Judgment Will BE revelealed (future tense)
* God WILL give according to what we have done. (future tense)



What causes most of the conflict within SDA teachings and circles, is because of the inconsistency of when and how the words 'soul', 'spirit', and 'breath' are used interchangeably in various places...and not consistently.


I want to be clear that I am not a member of the SDA or any Religion, nor have they or anyone else influenced my possible beliefs. What I have learned is from studying the Word as well as comparing the Greek and Hebrew... not what a popular or not so popular preacher is teaching. I am not familiar with what the "SDA and circles" are teaching, because I am not a member.

Just want to be clear about that. :)

Look forward to your responses.

God bless,
Alyssa

The context of John who wrote revelation, is the altar in Heaven.

John mentions no altar of souls being in the grave or under the earth...only the altar by God's throne within His heavenly temple.

Look in the OT, you will find two altars. Even if we understand this to be the Golden altar, whee does John say the souls are?

Revelation 6:9 ( KJV ) 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Under the altar. What is under the altar? the earth.

Revelation 8:5 ( KJV ) 5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Hi Alyssa,

I don't know if you have done this, but I would look at those verses that you were speaking of, in the Septuagint, quite often the Septuagint reads differently, and the Septuagint is the Bible that Jesus and the Apostles used. I am including a link to an online copy.

Butch

http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/

Hi Butch!

Thanks for the link!
Yes, it reads the same as my bible. :)

God bless,
Alyssa

Sure we know there are times when sayings, and even scripture verses uses 'soul' to denote the body, or the body-spirit unit.

So, we don't have to believe that the wicked go to heaven.

We can know from scripture, that their destination is an abode of suffering and torment removed from the presence of the Lord.

So what you ultimately have is this:

1) the general breath of life, which God gives all living creatures, making their bodies exist (which at their bodies death, returns so to speak, back to God...and doesn't remain with the dead corpse).

2) the immaterial spirit/soul of a person which differentiates us from the animals being made in God's own image which at death leaves the body, and those of believers go to be with the Lord, and those of unbelievers go to torment

3) the body itself, which goes to the grave, to await the resurrection, and its reuniting with the spirit/soul in an immortal, glorified, incorruptible new body like Jesus' own was.

So the wicked never go to Heaven. Neither their material or immaterial aspects.

So what Ecc and Job are referring to above, is God's life-giving force that he bestows upon each creature, from the butterfly, to both just and unjust men, to the mighty hippo...to make it live....not it's immaterial essence that truly is it, made in God's own image...because only humans have that.

Only man, however, has an immortal soul/spirit made in God's image.

That is the part that either goes to the Lord's presence or goes to torment at death; and awaits the resurrection of the body.

I'd like to add to what David has said too. This doesn't come from me but from a teacher of the Word that I listen to. God made man in the image and likeness of God. The Word says that God is Spirit so we can almost come to the conclusion perhaps that the image and likeness of God would have to be related to the immaterial part, soul (mind, heart, seat of emotions, ability to desire,seek and find God etc) as opposed to the body being made in the image of God, for God is Spirit.

This ramble part is from me:The breath of life is also called spirit, which is probably the part which animates the body. We also have to bring into remembrance that the Word says that the life is in the blood also. This brings to mind, God telling Cain that Abel's blood calls out from the ground. How can this be? That reminds me again of Rev. 6:10 of the souls of those slain, calling for the avenging of their blood shed on the earth.
And also Rev. 15:2 Another sign in heaven...
And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the ..........they were standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God. (but how can a soul/spirit STAND on something?)

In Revelation, we see the vision opens with elders, a throne and angels etc and as the book continues we find others joining such as the souls under the altar, those standing on the sea of glass and on and on. The throne is in heaven.

More thinking on my part is if we are made in the image, likeness of God and God is spirit, God's spirit is eternal.

But I think that the difference is those who are sealed unto salvation by the Holy Spirit of God, have the spirit/soul which goes to heaven after death for it is eternal. ( although I believe once there is a new heaven and new earth, the redeemed do not all reside in heaven , but on the new earth also)

Something interesting is this though, those not saved are always considered "dead". In Rev. 20:13, 14 is another curiosity.
It says the sea gave up the dead that were in it, then goes on to say that death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them. Did death and Hades give up the dead to go before the Throne in judgment? For after this Death, Hades as well as anyone whose name was not in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of Fire. Hummmm.

As a matter of fact, here is another verse of the difference Jesus makes in where we go when we die.
1 Corin. 15:45
So also it is written, "The first Man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. First is the natural and then the spiritual.
When we believe in Christ He give us life with His life-giving spirit, eternal life. If Christ gives us life then are our spirits ever really dead? The body, yes, but the spirit? No I don't think so and it has to reside somewhere when the body dies...heaven perhaps? I'm thinking aloud here. Not proving anything.

Yes! So you would agree that what you are speaking of above is the spirit (breath of life) and NOT the soul? Eccl 12:7 - "and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it."

Ecc 12:7 is speaking about God giving and taking life. Spirit in this context isn't of the consciousness that makes up who we are, but simply that we as created beings (like animals) do not exist without God giving us life; and when that life is removed from a creature's body; the body is dead.

Humans however, have a spirit/soul like God's in that it is aware, conscious, and is the 'true' part of us...our body is more like a rented tuxedo covering the true us; which is our spirit/soul.

Cut off my arm, and I am still who I am, albeit my body is less functional. My spirit/soul is what I truly am, because it was made in God's image, and it never ceases to exist.






What is the verse that says the soul goes to heaven? Obviously, Eccl 12:7 is the spirit (breath of life).

That verse is a good one, because for believers their spirit/souls do go to Heaven. We've shown you many other examples in both the OT and NT before, no need to re-address them again.

Only the Lord and humans have souls....animals have bodies that are given life; but they are not made in God's image, and do not have an immortal spirit/soul.




So you are saying we have the breath of life going back to the Lord.
And then we also have the soul going back to the Lord as well?

I am obviously missing the two different verses.

In animals all that they have is life; or not life. When their body dies, their life ends. There is no soul/spirit that continues on conscously and immortally; because they weren't made in God's image. In humans, the spirit/soul doesn't cease to exist at physical death.






1.) Could you show me the verse in the OT that says the soul goes to heaven?
2.) Also, could you show me the verse that says the soul of the wicked goes to torment at death?
3.) How can the wicked already be in torment if the day of Judgment hasn't even come yet?

Because their unrepentent sin prevents them from being in Heaven with the Lord....because we living mortals are bound by time, yet those of the afterlife we cannot say for sure. Perhaps when they step out of our mortal time-space, they enter immediately into the day of Judgement. The scripture doesn't really explain the dichotomy of how heaven and the afterlife exists outside of time. A real mind-bender.

What we do know, is there are scriptures, that show the souls/spirits of the just go to be with the Lord; and the opposite for the wicked; go to a place of torment and separation.

All bodies, however, go to the grave...awaiting the resurrection on judgment day, because the earth is presently limited by time, and they must await that day.





I asked before, but perhaps you overlooked it, John 12:48 says:
John 12:48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

Romans 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done." ....But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

If the wicked are already in torment, "burning in flames"...and the righteous are in heaven, then they have already been judged, and Scripture says Judgment is on the Last Day after Christ Resurrects the Dead. Also, what more wrath could possibly be poured out on the wicked, than burning in flames and separation from God? This is their destiny, and from what you are saying, it has already happened. Doesn't add up Scripturally unless I am missing a verse.

On the last mortal day, the last day of present history of the earth, there will be a final judgment. Pretty simple. Until then, the just await it in Heaven with their Lord; and the unjust await it in Hell in the separated tormented flames. The difference of severity between now and the last day we don't know; but what we do know is that we don't want to be on the wrong side of the cross...that we need upmost to be sure we belong to Jesus before we die.




* storing up wrath for the day of God's wrath (present tense and future tense)
* Judgment Will BE revelealed (future tense)
* God WILL give according to what we have done. (future tense)

And when he does this to the wicked at the last day, it's going to be worse than anything they've ever experienced up to that point. Unimaginable.



I want to be clear that I am not a member of the SDA or any Religion, nor have they or anyone else influenced my possible beliefs. What I have learned is from studying the Word as well as comparing the Greek and Hebrew... not what a popular or not so popular preacher is teaching. I am not familiar with what the "SDA and circles" are teaching, because I am not a member.

Just want to be clear about that. :)

Look forward to your responses.

God bless,
Alyssa

You sure are fooling me with your line of questions Alyssa....I'd have voted that you were a 10th degree SDA by how you're framing your questions...And this entire 'popular teaching' stuff...there is no popular teaching....that's just one of those buzzwords that cults like to use to get their followers to reject mainstream orthodox teaching. Be careful, because you are falling into the SDA camp even though you say you don't come from that background.

Let me ask you this...if you are not an SDA, then what will happen with you..when you die? The last five minutes of your life, you are in fellowship, praying and longing for your Lord...you are holding His Word tight to your heart, and you perhaps even like Stephen see Him on the right hand of God, with the holy angels all about...then your dying body breaths it's last breath...you were a child of God....do the lights go out and darkness enter in...for decades, centuries, thousands of years....you are dead and alone and in darkness separated from your Lord and creator who you were so intimately close to just minutes before your body died and breathed it's last breath....this is the SDA view.

Or do you breath your last breath, and as Jesus did, commend your Spirit into the Hands of the Father, and as the body without the spirit is dead, your true you, now absent from the body, is present with the Lord--today, with Him in paradise?....the mainstream protestantview.

Which is it Alyssa?

That verse is a good one, because for believers their spirit/souls do go to Heaven. We've shown you many other examples in both the OT and NT before, no need to re-address them again.

No, you have not shown me a verse that says the "soul" goes to heaven. You did show me many verses and I replied to those verses. Those verses can be read two different ways. It is not a 100% guarantee that souls go to heaven when they die.

You never addressed the following, and I am very interested to know how we can explain this if we believe we go to heaven when we die.

Did David really expect to see his son immediately after death in heaven?

Psalm 6:4-5, a Psalm of David. He wrote:
Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

"RETURN" O Lord? DELIVER my SOUL? Save me?
FOR..... for what?
For in DEATH there is no remembrance of thee
In the grave who shall give thanks?

If David was in heaven with Jesus, then why is he so concerned about what his corpse can't do? That makes absolutely no sense to me.



Only the Lord and humans have souls....animals have bodies that are given life; but they are not made in God's image

No disagreement from me there.



Because their unrepentent sin prevents them from being in Heaven with the Lord....because we living mortals are bound by time, yet those of the afterlife we cannot say for sure. Perhaps when they step out of our mortal time-space, they enter immediately into the day of Judgement. The scripture doesn't really explain the dichotomy of how heaven and the afterlife exists outside of time. A real mind-bender.

What we do know, is there are scriptures, that show the souls/spirits of the just go to be with the Lord; and the opposite for the wicked; go to a place of torment and separation.


But David, you are giving me your opinion. You are not answering these questions with Scripture:

1.) Could you show me the verse in the OT that says the soul goes to heaven?
2.) Also, could you show me the verse that says the soul of the wicked goes to torment at death?
3.) How can the wicked already be in torment if the day of Judgment hasn't even come yet?



On the last mortal day, the last day of present history of the earth, there will be a final judgment. Pretty simple. Until then, the just await it in Heaven with their Lord; and the unjust await it in Hell in the separated tormented flames. The difference of severity between now and the last day we don't know; but what we do know is that we don't want to be on the wrong side of the cross...that we need upmost to be sure we belong to Jesus before we die.


Amen to the fact that we need to know what side of the cross to be on!! Amen that we need to know we belong to Jesus. If we have the Fruit of the Spirit, then we can be certain we have that assurance.

BUT.... you have not answered with Scripture how the unjust have already been judged. How can they already be in torment if Judgement Day hasn't happened?



And when he does this to the wicked at the last day, it's going to be worse than anything they've ever experienced up to that point. Unimaginable.


Exactly! When he does it at the LAST DAY. But I do not see any verse that says they are judged before then. Please show me. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, is just that, a parable.

Alyssa

Quote: David Taylor
You sure are fooling me with your line of questions Alyssa....I'd have voted that you were a 10th degree SDA by how you're framing your questions...
Woa now, David. Be careful with your accusations brother. Trust me, I'm not trying to "fool" you with my "line of questions." I am merely seeking to harmonize Scripture and understand why you are so convinced that your belief is 100% dead on when you still have yet to explain why David was so "concerned" about going to the grave since he knew he couldn't PRAISE him from there, but instead, he would be in silence. His hope was the Resurrection on the Last Day...as was Job's, Paul's and every other saints.




Quote:
And this entire 'popular teaching' stuff...there is no popular teaching....that's just one of those buzzwords that cults like to use to get their followers to reject mainstream orthodox teaching.
I am insulted by your accusations, and basically the idea that you are calling me a liar, when I have told you that I am not SDA, am not affiliated with them or any "cult," man made religion, nor have them or ANY preacher, whether mainstream or of a particular cult, influenced me in any way in my previous studies.

I am divorced. I do not believe in Remarriage. I radically oppose what is being taught in the modern churches today about the allowance of Remarriage. Jesus called it adultery, and the church says "Oh that's not what he meant," blah blah blah. I use the same "popular teaching" argument for this subject, because that's just what it is. But it was NOT popular in the Early Church, and it wasn't even popular 50 years ago. So does that qualify me as a member of a CULT, David? Because I disagree with the popular teaching of today? John Piper would agree with me on this topic. Is he cultic in your view?




Quote:
Be careful, because you are falling into the SDA camp even though you say you don't come from that background.
Be careful? :lol: Or what? I am a child of the Messiah. And THAT'S the camp I fall into. I follow HIS Holy Word, not a man made religion.




Quote:
Let me ask you this...if you are not an SDA, then what will happen with you..when you die?
You're bent on this SDA thing aren't you? Let me ask you, was the Early Church SDA? I honestly don't know anything about the SDA and when it was started. The early church did not teach heaven-going. Their hope was in the Resurrection. I am guessing that the SDA is not that old of a Religion, but that is only a guess. Personally, I don't care what the SDA believe. I am concerned with what the Word of God says.





Quote:
The last five minutes of your life, you are in fellowship, praying and longing for your Lord...you are holding His Word tight to your heart, and you perhaps even like Stephen see Him on the right hand of God, with the holy angels all about...then your dying body breaths it's last breath...you were a child of God....do the lights go out and darkness enter in...for decades, centuries, thousands of years....you are dead and alone and in darkness separated from your Lord and creator who you were so intimately close to just minutes before your body died and breathed it's last breath
Nope I don't believe that. Still not sure what I believe regarding this topic, but what I DO know is that Psalm 139, which you seem to keep overlooking says that WHEREVER I go, I cannot escape the presence of the Lord....even if I go down into the grave HE is there! ;) So no, if sleeping in death is true, then we are sleeping IN HIM, IN HIS PRESENCE, IN HIS CARE...AWAITING THE RESURRECTION. THIS is the whole HOPE of the Bible!





Quote:
Or do you breath your last breath, and as Jesus did, commend your Spirit into the Hands of the Father, and as the body without the spirit is dead, your true you, now absent from the body, is present with the Lord--today, with Him in paradise?....

Yep! I agree with that!



Quote:

Which is it Alyssa?
I'd say it's a little of both, David.

But I don't care how "popular" some teaching is, if Scripture does not harmonize and does not line up, I am not jumping on board with that "popular view." There are a lot of popular views I agree with, but there are a few that I don't. And I realize it could sometimes be my understanding of it. But still, Scripture MUST harmonize.

By the way, since you seem to feel that I am being dishonest and I am a member of a cult, why don't you check out my homepage. I am an open book, and I strive to be a woman of character and integrity, and I do not lie. You can take me for my word, or feel free to go to my homepage and write to any of those people in my friend's list and ask them what my church affiliation has been... or just read up on who my favorite authors are. This should give you a good idea of who I am and that I am a person of my word. If you are not interested, that is fine. But please don't make assumptions that are not true.

My church background has been with Tony Evans, Chuck Swindoll, Tommy Nelson, and Matt Chandler. None of these men are involved in a cult, but instead, are respectable mainstream preachers. Before that, as a child my family occassionally attended the Methodist church, which I am not a fan of. But I have never stepped foot in an SDA, Mormon, Buddhist, Benni Henn or any other non-mainstream church.

My questions that I have are sincere. I am merely seeking to harmonize the Hope and belief of David with the Hope and belief of Paul. Hopefully you will respect that.

Thanks, I will consider what you have written and compare it with Scripture.

God bless, :)
Alyssa

Something interesting is this though, those not saved are always considered "dead". In Rev. 20:13, 14 is another curiosity.
It says the sea gave up the dead that were in it, then goes on to say that death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them. Did death and Hades give up the dead to go before the Throne in judgment? For after this Death, Hades as well as anyone whose name was not in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of Fire. Hummmm.

Hi :)

Thank you for this.
Very good point! I will look into this! Excellent food for thought.

Thanks for your kindness and humbleness.

God bless,
Alyssa

Hi Butch!

Thanks for the link!
Yes, it reads the same as my bible. :)

God bless,
Alyssa

What Bible do you use?

What Bible do you use?

I have an NIV, but I also have the PCBible Study Software, so I look at the Greek and Hebrew for the original wording... as well as other translations, like the NASB.

~A

What Bible do you use?

Here is the English Translation from the Septuagint link you gave me:

Eccl 12:7
"the dust also return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return to who gave it"

Here is the NIV's:

Eccl 12:7
"the dust returns to the ground it came from, and
the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I'd have voted that you were a 10th degree SDA by how you're framing your questions...The Seventh-day Adventist Church does not have degrees.

Here is the English Translation from the Septuagint link you gave me:

Eccl 12:7
"the dust also return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return to who gave it"

Here is the NIV's:

Eccl 12:7
"the dust returns to the ground it came from, and
the spirit returns to God who gave it.
The dust is the body and the spirit well that's where the discussion comes in. What does this spirit comprise of? Only the breath that animated the body? The body has to have oxygen to operate on. If this is the only part that returns to God then we still have to figure out where the part that makes up the personality (if you will) goes to. When an autospy is made we know they see only the body, they cannot see the personality of that person. The body is the house the spirit/soul lives in. If the breath is only oxygen that the body runs on and that part goes back to God then what exactly happened to the personality? I myself feel it does not cease to exist at death. Again, a relationship with the Lord Jesus or lack thereof is what decides destiny of the spirit/soul. The thing in question to me is not rather it ceases to exist but what is the destination of it when death occurs. If that were the case, then at the resurrection the Lord would not only have to resurrect the body but also the personality of the person so they could be thrown into the Lake of Fire. And if a person ceases to exist in the Lake of Fire (as some believe) then what would the purpose be of recreating the spirit/soul/personality of that person just in order to place them in a lake of fire so that they again cease to exist. This is out of my normal league of study, but that doesn't make a bit of sense to me.Again in Rev. 20:12 it says the dead stood before the throne. It says they are THE dead. Does that mean they don't have the breath of life in them? Do they even have a body? Surely, they do have a mind to realize that they are being judged and they are aware of things. If not, what would be the purpose? If they are not conscious what is the purpose of throwing them in a lake of fire? These are questions that arrive in my mind. I choose to believe that after dead the consious part of them remain somewhere until that day. And the saved are indeed in some part of heaven awaiting the resurrection of their body.

Hi :)

Thank you for this.
Very good point! I will look into this! Excellent food for thought.

Thanks for your kindness and humbleness.

God bless,
Alyssa
You are welcome. I do believe the personality of a saved person does go directly to where the Lord is when death occurs and I don't know a thing about SDA teaching. (I was a Baptist. :); Regardless, it is hard not to be curious about what happens after death, although I'm not terribly concerned for the saved for I trust the Lord knows these things and we can rely on Him and take comfort in that.
Truly the Word isn't real clear cut on some of these things but we have to compare what we know and let scripture interpret itself. :) Onward and upward.

No, you have not shown me a verse that says the "soul" goes to heaven. You did show me many verses and I replied to those verses. Those verses can be read two different ways. It is not a 100% guarantee that souls go to heaven when they die.


I and all of Mainstream Protestantism believe those verses are read and understood in the light that the spirit/soul goes to Heaven. If you choose Alyssa, to interpret those verses differently, I can't convince you to do otherwise if you choose to want to believe differently.





You never addressed the following, and I am very interested to know how we can explain this if we believe we go to heaven when we die.

Did David really expect to see his son immediately after death in heaven?
Psalm 6:4-5, a Psalm of David. He wrote:
Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

"RETURN" O Lord? DELIVER my SOUL? Save me?
FOR..... for what?
For in DEATH there is no remembrance of thee
In the grave who shall give thanks?

If David was in heaven with Jesus, then why is he so concerned about what his corpse can't do? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

The context of this passage is David petitioning the Lord to deliver him from his enemies. "Soul" used in this context, referring to the spirit/body unit; of which is being downtroddened and greatly troubled because of the enemies encompassing him.

With all of the wicked people surrounding him, if he dies, and his body is placed in the grave; who will remain to praise and give thanks to the Lord? David's dead body won't be able to; so he is asking the Lord to deliver him, so that he can continue praising the Lord and being thankful...because his enemies surely aren't going to do so.

Does that help clarify this verse in context for you? You have to get over the notion of wanting to uniquely and narrowly define the useage of 'soul' when reading the scriptures; because as we've said before, the context determines it's intent; because soul can be used one of 3 different ways within scripture.







But David, you are giving me your opinion. You are not answering these questions with Scripture:
1.) Could you show me the verse in the OT that says the soul goes to heaven?
2.) Also, could you show me the verse that says the soul of the wicked goes to torment at death?
3.) How can the wicked already be in torment if the day of Judgment hasn't even come yet?

1. Psalms 23:6 "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever."

2. Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
What is the context of the worm? The worm is another word sometimes used to denote the spirit/soul of a person.
Mark 8:36 "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

3. Because the bible teaches that when the wicked die, the immediately go into torment.
"the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments" Luke 16:22






Exactly! When he does it at the LAST DAY. But I do not see any verse that says they are judged before then. Please show me. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, is just that, a parable.
Alyssa

Whether or not Jesus is telling a parable or an actual historical account doesn't matter. If you dismiss Luke 16 as being a parable that is not an accurate account of the after-life; (for both the just and the unjust), then you are telling us that Jesus is using a lie and an untrue scenerio to teach a moral lesson. Parables don't tell lies or untruths. In parables, trees can fall into the ocean, seeds to fall upon rocky and weedy soil, vinekeepers do hire laborours, etc...but if you discount this lesson by Jesus as being untrue because it doesn't fit your personal interpretation regarding the afterlife; then how much stock can we take in anything Jesus has to say? If we do this, then how do we dicern when Jesus is telling legitimate and truthful lessons, and fake lessons grounded on untrue non-possibilities and expectations?

Jesus very matter of factly said that when the rich person died, he was taken into the torments of hell; and was quite conscious and aware. You can take a little license with figurative language here, and say that souls don't have fingers and souls can't drink water, etc...but you can't take bend figurative language to the point that it makes Jesus into creating a false destination for the wicked and just at death.

If Luke 16 was the only passage in the Bible that explained what happens to the just and the unjust at death; it would be sufficient enough for all of us to realize that you don't want to go to the place of torment; because it does exist...beyond our fartherest imagination.

...The context of this passage is David petitioning the Lord to deliver him from his enemies. "Soul" used in this context, referring to the spirit/body unit; of which is being downtroddened and greatly troubled because of the enemies encompassing him.

With all of the wicked people surrounding him, if he dies, and his body is placed in the grave; who will remain to praise and give thanks to the Lord? David's dead body won't be able to; so he is asking the Lord to deliver him, so that he can continue praising the Lord and being thankful...because his enemies surely aren't going to do so.

Does that help clarify this verse in context for you? You have to get over the notion of wanting to uniquely and narrowly define the useage of 'soul' when reading the scriptures; because as we've said before, the context determines it's intent; because soul can be used one of 3 different ways within scripture.
Ecc 9:5-10 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun. Go, eat your bread with joy, And drink your wine with a merry heart; For God has already accepted your works. Let your garments always be white, And let your head lack no oil. Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life which He has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity; for that is your portion in life, and in the labor which you perform under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.I'm interested to know your thoughts on the Ecclesiastes verse.

Woa now, David. Be careful with your accusations brother. Trust me, I'm not trying to "fool" you with my "line of questions."
Trying to make a light hearted reply there....guess it didn't convey the way I wanted it over the typed media. What I was trying to say, was that even though you have chosen to stick "Im not an SDA" labels here and there along your posts, your line of questions and interpretations match their teachings very closely. Not calling you a liar, not trying to disparage you; just making the observation of your views and the SDA views regarding hell and the soul. Sorry it hit the wrong way. Not my intent.




I am divorced. I do not believe in Remarriage. I radically oppose what is being taught in the modern churches today about the allowance of Remarriage. Jesus called it adultery, and the church says "Oh that's not what he meant," blah blah blah. I use the same "popular teaching" argument for this subject, because that's just what it is. But it was NOT popular in the Early Church, and it wasn't even popular 50 years ago. So does that qualify me as a member of a CULT, David? Because I disagree with the popular teaching of today? John Piper would agree with me on this topic. Is he cultic in your view?

Again, I'm not trying to throw you under the cult-bus here....just making the observation that your views on Hell and the soul both are pretty much identical with the SDA group. As for remarriage, that would be another thread altogether, and wouldn't want to derail this one talking about that.




Be careful? :lol: Or what? I am a child of the Messiah. And THAT'S the camp I fall into. I follow HIS Holy Word, not a man made religion.

Great to here....following Jesus is first and foremost; much moreso than these secondary issues and debates within Christendom doctrines.



You're bent on this SDA thing aren't you? Let me ask you, was the Early Church SDA? I honestly don't know anything about the SDA and when it was started. The early church did not teach heaven-going. Their hope was in the Resurrection. I am guessing that the SDA is not that old of a Religion, but that is only a guess. Personally, I don't care what the SDA believe. I am concerned with what the Word of God says.

Who is saying today's churches hope isn't in the resurrection or that is was lost? :confused The intermediary state, prior to the resurrection; is just that....something that is prior to and before the final state that occurs at the resurrection. None of us live the ages of Methuselah or longer; so that we remain alive unto the resurrection; so we have to be accounted for somewhere when we die. We are either in the ground, alone, unconscious, unaware...or we are with the Lord in His direct presence as Paul wanted to depart to, and Stephen witnessed with his dying breaths.

But even for Paul and Stephen, their final reward and climax to their existence will be the resurrection; when they are raised to be like Jesus; and have an eternal glorified body like His. Just like Jesus' story didn't end during the 3 days in the tomb; ours doesn't while we are in the tomb either...and resurrection; is the final and most important culmination of our existence....but for folks like Paul and Stephen and David who've been dead 2000, 3000 years....during the wait for the resurrection; they sure were hopeful of being with the Lord forever; and in His presence until the resurrection...not the cold, lonely, ground where their decaying bodies were placed.






Still not sure what I believe regarding this topic, but what I DO know is that Psalm 139, which you seem to keep overlooking says that WHEREVER I go, I cannot escape the presence of the Lord....even if I go down into the grave HE is there! ;) So no, if sleeping in death is true, then we are sleeping IN HIM, IN HIS PRESENCE, IN HIS CARE...AWAITING THE RESURRECTION. THIS is the whole HOPE of the Bible!

But if you follow the notion that you aren't consciously with the Lord; then you aren't in His presence at all in the grave. God is omnipresent; He is everywhere...that is all that verse is saying. That wherever David's body would travel; the Lord would be there....that doesn't mean David's conscious spirit would be there. That doesn't mean that David himself would feel the presence and be comforted and in joy while in that ground.

Psalms 139 doesn't advance soul-sleep one bit; it only shows that whereever someone goes; the they can't hide from the Lord.

But when David said:
"Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever"
and
"Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. "
and
"The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. "
and
"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. "
and
"The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever. "
and
"The Lord forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever"
and
"The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever"
and
"And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever "
and
"therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever."
and
"I will praise thee for ever"
and
"I will abide in thy tabernacle for ever"
and
"He shall abide before God for ever"
and
"So will I sing praise unto thy name for ever"
and
"But I will declare for ever"
and
"So we thy people and sheep of thy pasture will give thee thanks for ever"
and
"I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore."
and
"I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever"

And that's only a few excerpts from the frist 100 Psalms.

If we only die, and stop existing for decades, hundreds, in David's case 3000 years...then none of the above things can be fulfilled by David as he expected them.

I truly believe the scriptures teach that David believed he would praised the Lord forever, that he would be in the Lord's house forever, that he would sing of the Lord forever, and abide in the Lord's tabernacle forever....

not just a few earthly years with the Lord...then a 3000 year gap of nothingness; then restarting his conscious fellowship with the Lord again dozens and dozens and scores of generations afterward at the final judgment and resurrection.



But I don't care how "popular" some teaching is, if Scripture does not harmonize and does not line up, I am not jumping on board with that "popular view."

Look, I'm not saying jump on any view because it is popular. But in this case, the concent that the church holds that the souls of the just go to be with the Lord at death; and the souls of the unjust go to torment are what Scripture teaches. Only the leftover and used up bodies are discarded and go to the grave. No passages in the bible, when properly understood in light of the context of the verse and all of the other teahings of the scripture; create a conflict or problem. Not Psalms 6 or 139, not Luke 16, not Revelation 5 or Revelation 20, not Mark 9....none of them are in conflict.





By the way, since you seem to feel that I am being dishonest and I am a member of a cult, why don't you check out my homepage. I am an open book, and I strive to be a woman of character and integrity, and I do not lie.

Don't think your dishonest at all. Again, just was saying your view seems to be aligning very tightly with a view you keep saying you're not aligned with. As for not lying though...you're a liar! :) But so am I, and every other member on this board. All of us have lied, and it is by the Lord's grace and mercy that He forgives us even in our wretched and disappointing iniquities. None of us willfully want to lie; and I wasn't calling you a liar before...just pointing out the similarity of this one viewpoint...that's all...sorry to have done so to have upset you. Wasn't my intent.




My questions that I have are sincere. I am merely seeking to harmonize the Hope and belief of David with the Hope and belief of Paul. Hopefully you will respect that.

Thanks, I will consider what you have written and compare it with Scripture.

God bless, :)
Alyssa

I do believe you are sincere, and I do see your zeal to harmonize the scriptures and respect that.

:P

Hi My heart's Desire,

When I was first convicted about No-Remarriage after I studied the topic for two years, at first I thought "This isn't fair, this doesn't make sense, how can this be?" But when I was willing to accept what I believed the Word was saying and put my logic aside, I was filled with peace and a passion to defend it. And God has blessed me for it.

You said "And if a person ceases to exist in the Lake of Fire (as some believe) then what would the purpose be of recreating the spirit/soul/personality of that person just in order to place them in a lake of fire so that they again cease to exist. This is out of my normal league of study, but that doesn't make a bit of sense to me." I am not so sure the wicked will cease to exist. It sounds like the Lake of Fire is an eternal thing. But I am not sure.

As I have said, I am not 100% convinced either way about what happens at death. And there are a lot of things that don't make sense about heaven-going when compared with Scripture. There are a couple of things that don't make sense about "soul sleep" when compared with Scripture, in my opinion. I believe there are verses that far-far outweigh one over the other.

An eternity is a very, very long time. And if we sleep for a "little while" before entering eternity, then that time is nothing, it is a blip on the radar screen of eternity especially when we will have no concept of time if we are asleep. When I look at this way, then God recreating man doesn't seem strange. Scripture is clear that God is going to re-create us. That is part of our Blessed HOPE. But what's even more close to convincing are the Scriptures that tell us our Reward is at the Resurrection. We will be Reborn at The Resurrection. No more tears happen at the Resurrection. We are given new bodies at the Resurrection. Our adoptions as sons and daughters is at the Resurrection. The Kingdom will finally COME in all its fullness at The Resurrection. The Judgment is at the Resurrection. Death is finally destroyed at The Resurrection. Satan will be locked away forever at The Resurrection. We will reign with Christ after The Resurrection. We will Inherit the Kingdom of God after The Resurrection. We will be made righteous at the Resurrection (not in heaven). We will see Christ at The Resurrection (not in heaven). We will praise God after The Resurrection (no Scripture of saints praising in heaven).

All of these things happen on or after The Resurrection when Jesus brings His Kingdom from heaven to Earth. None of them happen in heaven. We have no record of anything "happening" with us in heaven, where God lives (except for the vision of the souls under the alter, and they were even told to REST a little while longer). And yet, pastors are preaching how the saints are in heaven praising God. Where does it say that in Scripture? If this is true, AWESOME!! I wish someone would point out the Scripture, and I'll shut up and look forward to death! But from where I stand, I am leaning strongly on looking forward ONLY to The Resurrection.

However, I am teachable. And I am certainly willing to admit if I am wrong. But again, Scripture has to prove it, not religion, opinion, or the tradition of man. Thank you soooooo much for your heart and kindness. I am definitely going to look at your previous suggestions over the next few days and reflect on them in prayer and study. You have some good points! :)

God bless you!
Alyssa

Trying to make a light hearted reply there....guess it didn't convey the way I wanted it over the typed media. What I was trying to say, was that even though you have chosen to stick "Im not an SDA" labels here and there along your posts, your line of questions and interpretations match their teachings very closely. Not calling you a liar, not trying to disparage you; just making the observation of your views and the SDA views regarding hell and the soul. Sorry it hit the wrong way. Not my intent.



Again, I'm not trying to throw you under the cult-bus here....just making the observation that your views on Hell and the soul both are pretty much identical with the SDA group. As for remarriage, that would be another thread altogether, and wouldn't want to derail this one talking about that.



Great to here....following Jesus is first and foremost; much moreso than these secondary issues and debates within Christendom doctrines.


Who is saying today's churches hope isn't in the resurrection or that is was lost? :confused The intermediary state, prior to the resurrection; is just that....something that is prior to and before the final state that occurs at the resurrection. None of us live the ages of Methuselah or longer; so that we remain alive unto the resurrection; so we have to be accounted for somewhere when we die. We are either in the ground, alone, unconscious, unaware...or we are with the Lord in His direct presence as Paul wanted to depart to, and Stephen witnessed with his dying breaths.

But even for Paul and Stephen, their final reward and climax to their existence will be the resurrection; when they are raised to be like Jesus; and have an eternal glorified body like His. Just like Jesus' story didn't end during the 3 days in the tomb; ours doesn't while we are in the tomb either...and resurrection; is the final and most important culmination of our existence....but for folks like Paul and Stephen and David who've been dead 2000, 3000 years....during the wait for the resurrection; they sure were hopeful of being with the Lord forever; and in His presence until the resurrection...not the cold, lonely, ground where their decaying bodies were placed.





But if you follow the notion that you aren't consciously with the Lord; then you aren't in His presence at all in the grave. God is omnipresent; He is everywhere...that is all that verse is saying. That wherever David's body would travel; the Lord would be there....that doesn't mean David's conscious spirit would be there. That doesn't mean that David himself would feel the presence and be comforted and in joy while in that ground.

Psalms 139 doesn't advance soul-sleep one bit; it only shows that whereever someone goes; the they can't hide from the Lord.

But when David said:
"Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever"
and
"Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. "
and
"The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. "
and
"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. "
and
"The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever. "
and
"The Lord forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever"
and
"The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever"
and
"And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever "
and
"therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever."
and
"I will praise thee for ever"
and
"I will abide in thy tabernacle for ever"
and
"He shall abide before God for ever"
and
"So will I sing praise unto thy name for ever"
and
"But I will declare for ever"
and
"So we thy people and sheep of thy pasture will give thee thanks for ever"
and
"I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore."
and
"I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever"

And that's only a few excerpts from the frist 100 Psalms.

If we only die, and stop existing for decades, hundreds, in David's case 3000 years...then none of the above things can be fulfilled by David as he expected them.

I truly believe the scriptures teach that David believed he would praised the Lord forever, that he would be in the Lord's house forever, that he would sing of the Lord forever, and abide in the Lord's tabernacle forever....

not just a few earthly years with the Lord...then a 3000 year gap of nothingness; then restarting his conscious fellowship with the Lord again dozens and dozens and scores of generations afterward at the final judgment and resurrection.


Look, I'm not saying jump on any view because it is popular. But in this case, the concent that the church holds that the souls of the just go to be with the Lord at death; and the souls of the unjust go to torment are what Scripture teaches. Only the leftover and used up bodies are discarded and go to the grave. No passages in the bible, when properly understood in light of the context of the verse and all of the other teahings of the scripture; create a conflict or problem. Not Psalms 6 or 139, not Luke 16, not Revelation 5 or Revelation 20, not Mark 9....none of them are in conflict.




Don't think your dishonest at all. Again, just was saying your view seems to be aligning very tightly with a view you keep saying you're not aligned with. As for not lying though...you're a liar! :) But so am I, and every other member on this board. All of us have lied, and it is by the Lord's grace and mercy that He forgives us even in our wretched and disappointing iniquities. None of us willfully want to lie; and I wasn't calling you a liar before...just pointing out the similarity of this one viewpoint...that's all...sorry to have done so to have upset you. Wasn't my intent.



I do believe you are sincere, and I do see your zeal to harmonize the scriptures and respect that.

:P

:) Thanks for your post!

I appreciate you taking all the time to respond. And thanks for clearing things up...I appreciate it.

I will look through the verses and keep praying about it. I trust God will lead me into wisdom and understanding as long as I am willing and desiring to learn.

Okay... so either I'll see you around, see you in heaven... or see you at the Resurrection. But IF my hunch is right and yours is wrong, your gettin' a knookie!! :lol:

God bless,
Alyssa

I have an NIV, but I also have the PCBible Study Software, so I look at the Greek and Hebrew for the original wording... as well as other translations, like the NASB.

~A

Do you have a copy of he Septuagint in your software? The reason I ask is because there are quite a few verses in the OT that read differently in the Septuagint, than they do in the MT, which is what our English translations come from.

Okay... so either I'll see you around, see you in heaven... or see you at the Resurrection. But IF my hunch is right and yours is wrong, your gettin' a knookie!! :lol:

God bless,
Alyssa

Just don't come barging into my coffin :spin:....I'll be cramped enough in there...definately not room for visitors.

My hope is to follow Jesus' example....commend my spirit to the Father, give up my ghost, and that very day, be with Jesus in paradise...(even though they plant my old carcass in the ground). I'd sure hate to sleep through all of that. Please, please wake me up if my soul starts sleeping!

Do you have a copy of he Septuagint in your software? The reason I ask is because there are quite a few verses in the OT that read differently in the Septuagint, than they do in the MT, which is what our English translations come from.

Parallel a ton of bibles here....

http://www.unboundbible.com/
(multi-languages, Greek, Latin, Hebrew, etc....)

and here...
http://www.studylight.org/par/
(multi-English versions, including many pre-KJV versions like Wycliffe, Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishops, etc...)

Do you have a copy of he Septuagint in your software? The reason I ask is because there are quite a few verses in the OT that read differently in the Septuagint, than they do in the MT, which is what our English translations come from.

Hi Butch,

Thanks, I do not have it in my software... but I see that David just placed a link up. Cool!!

I like the OLD stuff!! ;)

God bless,
Alyssa

[quote=My heart's Desire;2014545]I'd like to add to what David has said too. This doesn't come from me but from a teacher of the Word that I listen to. God made man in the image and likeness of God. The Word says that God is Spirit so we can almost come to the conclusion perhaps that the image and likeness of God would have to be related to the immaterial part, soul (mind, heart, seat of emotions, ability to desire,seek and find God etc) as opposed to the body being made in the image of God, for God is Spirit.


I forgot to respond to your post! I apologize.

Could it not be this:
God = Soul (mind will emotions)
Jesus = Body (the obvious)
Holy Spirit = spirit (breath of life)

Scripture tells us that no one can see God nor will they ever see God. Jesus is the "image of the invisible God." If in the beginning, God said, "Let (US) make man in (OUR) image, why couldn't it be body, soul, and spirit?



This ramble part is from me:The breath of life is also called spirit, which is probably the part which animates the body. We also have to bring into remembrance that the Word says that the life is in the blood also. This brings to mind, God telling Cain that Abel's blood calls out from the ground. How can this be?

Well we know that blood "calling out from the ground," is not literal. Blood doesn't call out. I think this is symbolic of Abel's death. Possibly because he is buried in the ground.



That reminds me again of Rev. 6:10 of the souls of those slain, calling for the avenging of their blood shed on the earth.
And also Rev. 15:2 Another sign in heaven...
And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the ..........they were standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God. (but how can a soul/spirit STAND on something?)


Exactly! How can a soul hold something? I don't know. Revelation is very symbolic and quite often not literal.



In Revelation, we see the vision opens with elders, a throne and angels etc and as the book continues we find others joining such as the souls under the altar, those standing on the sea of glass and on and on. The throne is in heaven.


And in the center of the sea of glass were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes front and back.

The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.

Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. (Say What??!!)

And so as we can see, Revelation is very symbolic and difficult to understand. Revelation is considered to be one of the most controversial and difficult books of the Bible, with many diverse interpretations of the meanings of the various names and events in the account. Luther thought that it was not "apostolic or prophetic," and John Calvin didn't even write a Commentary on it...which was the only New Testament book he didn't write a Commentary on. I am not saying that we should ignore it, but obviously many people have difficulty in understanding it. So exactly WHERE is this alter? Sure John's vision was taking place in heaven, but is that WHERE the alter was? Could the alter be, as Butch has suggested, on the earth? Afterall earth is where the New Jerusalem will be.

Revelation 6:12 speaks of the sun turning black and moon turning blood red and the stars falling from the sky. Even though John's vision was in heaven, this account spoken of will occur ON and over earth right before the return of our Savior. So, not everything is necessarily happening IN heaven.



But I think that the difference is those who are sealed unto salvation by the Holy Spirit of God, have the spirit/soul which goes to heaven after death for it is eternal. ( although I believe once there is a new heaven and new earth, the redeemed do not all reside in heaven , but on the new earth also)

There won't be people up in heaven AND down on the new earth.
God is bringing his Kingdom FROM heaven TO earth, so there will not be anyone UP in heaven. The redeemed will all be reigning with Christ here on the new earth that God will re-create or restore.


Something interesting is this though, those not saved are always considered "dead".

Yes, those that are not saved are dead. But ALL of the dead are not necessarily unsaved. Because we know God will raise the righteous DEAD and give them new bodies.



In Rev. 20:13, 14 is another curiosity.
It says the sea gave up the dead that were in it, then goes on to say that death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them. Did death and Hades give up the dead to go before the Throne in judgment? For after this Death, Hades as well as anyone whose name was not in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of Fire. Hummmm.


When I first read this, and responded in a previous post, I thought you were saying something else, but now that I have re-read it, I am not sure what you are trying to express.

John says the dead, great and small, were standing before the throne. I believe this is ALL of the dead...believers and non believers. Because the dead are judged according to what they had done.

Death and Hades being thrown into the Lake of Fire is 1.) Anyone who does not have the seal of the Spirit and 2.) God destroying death forever. It will never be an enemy again. Regardless of whether one was in "Death" (the unsaved) or "Hades" (the grave), BOTH will be thrown into the Lake of Fire because God is destroying death forever. This is my take on it.

Okay, that's all. :)

God bless,
Alyssa

Just don't come barging into my coffin :spin:....I'll be cramped enough in there...definately not room for visitors.

My hope is to follow Jesus' example....commend my spirit to the Father, give up my ghost, and that very day, be with Jesus in paradise...(even though they plant my old carcass in the ground). I'd sure hate to sleep through all of that. Please, please wake me up if my soul starts sleeping!

:lol: Funny!

Hey David, one thing I think you and I have in common with the SDA's is that after death, your very next conscious thought will literally be in the Lord's presence! ;)

At least we can agree on that!!

God bless,
Alyssa

And so as we can see, Revelation is very symbolic and difficult to understand. Revelation is considered to be one of the most controversial and difficult books of the Bible, with many diverse interpretations of the meanings of the various names and events in the account. Luther thought that it was not "apostolic or prophetic," and John Calvin didn't even write a Commentary on it...which was the only New Testament book he didn't write a Commentary on. I am not saying that we should ignore it, but obviously many people have difficulty in understanding it. So exactly WHERE is this alter? Sure John's vision was taking place in heaven, but is that WHERE the alter was? Could the alter be, as Butch has suggested, on the earth? Afterall earth is where the New Jerusalem will be.

There are two altars in the sanctuary system. One in the courtyard, upon which the sacrifice was placed, and one in the Holy Place at which the coals from the first altar where used as incense. The penitent would place their hands on the head of the lamb, symbolizing the taking of sin upon the innocent. Then a blade was given to the penitent with which to he was to kill the lamb, it is our sins that have brought the death of Christ. The lamb was presented on the altar that I believe represents the Cross.

As the souls under the altar are martyrs, they died either under the condemnation of the Roman Empire, or by the hand of the Church. Especially in the latter case they were branded as heretics, doomed to damnation. But if the altar here represents the altar in the courtyard, it is indicating that these martyrs are covered by the cross of Christ. That although the world accused them and declared them lost, Christ says that no, His blood is sufficient for them and covers them. And, they are therefore given white robes.

Parallel a ton of bibles here....

http://www.unboundbible.com/
(multi-languages, Greek, Latin, Hebrew, etc....)

and here...
http://www.studylight.org/par/
(multi-English versions, including many pre-KJV versions like Wycliffe, Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishops, etc...)

Thanks David, I appreciate it.

Hi Butch,

Thanks, I do not have it in my software... but I see that David just placed a link up. Cool!!

I like the OLD stuff!! ;)

God bless,
Alyssa

I have a copy of an interlinear Septuagint in pdf format. My Bible software reads pdf's so I am able to incorporate it into my software to a point. I am limited to the search capabilities of the Acrobat Reader though.

Here is a link to the site for the pdf's
http://apostolicbible.com/platformAB.htm

I have a copy of an interlinear Septuagint in pdf format. My Bible software reads pdf's so I am able to incorporate it into my software to a point. I am limited to the search capabilities of the Acrobat Reader though.

Here is a link to the site for the pdf's
http://apostolicbible.com/platformAB.htm

Thanks, brother! Very cool!

Appreciate ya!

Alyssa

[quote]


I forgot to respond to your post! I apologize.

Could it not be this:
God = Soul (mind will emotions)
Jesus = Body (the obvious)
Holy Spirit = spirit (breath of life)

Scripture tells us that no one can see God nor will they ever see God. Jesus is the "image of the invisible God." If in the beginning, God said, "Let (US) make man in (OUR) image, why couldn't it be body, soul, and spirit?
--------------------------------------
My reply,
Yes, we know that as scripture say we are made in the image and likeness of God, but in what way was my point. God is spirit so must not have a Body unless as you put forth and is true, Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God. I believe as other scripture puts forth that the Lord Jesus is also Creator of all things. What I mean is "we are certainly NOT GOD" yet we've been made in His likeness and His image. The Body indeed decays, so it must be the personality part and spirit (part that can commune with God) that continues alive after death and I believe it will be in heaven for the redeemed.



Well we know that blood "calling out from the ground," is not literal. Blood doesn't call out. I think this is symbolic of Abel's death. Possibly because he is buried in the ground.
--------------------
My reply
True but could have the meaning of:
God knows the location of and hears the spirits of those who have departed. The blood all through the Bible has significant meaning.
But did you see how it correlates to the souls under the altar crying out for the avenging of their blood also.


Exactly! How can a soul hold something? I don't know. Revelation is very symbolic and quite often not literal.
-------------------
My reply,
It does have many symbols, but so does the rest of the Bible. I don't treat prophetic books of the Bible any different than the other books. First literal, unless if read that way a passage doesn't make plain sense. If it does make plain sense don't look for it to mean something else. If there are symbols then the symbols that help understanding are probably located in other parts of scripture as scripture will interpret itself.



And in the center of the sea of glass were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes front and back.

The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.

-----------------------------
My reply:

Did you know that the lion symbolizes Christ the Lion of Judah, /The King as in Matthew.
The oz symbolizes Christ the servant of the Lord as in Mark.
The face as a man symbolizes Christ, as the Son of Man as in Luke
and
The flying eagle symbolizes Christ, as the Eagle, Christ in His Deity, as in the book of John? Anyway, neither here nor there.

Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. (Say What??!!)

And so as we can see, Revelation is very symbolic and difficult to understand. Revelation is considered to be one of the most controversial and difficult books of the Bible, with many diverse interpretations of the meanings of the various names and events in the account. Luther thought that it was not "apostolic or prophetic," and John Calvin didn't even write a Commentary on it...which was the only New Testament book he didn't write a Commentary on. I am not saying that we should ignore it, but obviously many people have difficulty in understanding it. So exactly WHERE is this alter? Sure John's vision was taking place in heaven, but is that WHERE the alter was? Could the alter be, as Butch has suggested, on the earth? Afterall earth is where the New Jerusalem will be.
------------------------------------------
My reply:
Some have put forth that the New Jerusalem is so big that it probably could not fit on the earth but may circle above it. It is 1000's of miles wide and tall as a square. Regardless, I believe John is seeing the altar in heaven where the throne is in this case.
----------------------------------------


Revelation 6:12 speaks of the sun turning black and moon turning blood red and the stars falling from the sky. Even though John's vision was in heaven, this account spoken of will occur ON and over earth right before the return of our Savior. So, not everything is necessarily happening IN heaven.

----------------------------
My reply:
That is true, obviously John sees also the things that will happen upon the earth too, but that doesn't mean he isn't seeing it in or from heaven. I'd wager to say that most of everything will happen on or to the earth and those living upon it. I'd almost say that things happen in heaven that brings about the things that happen on the earth.
--------------------------------------

There won't be people up in heaven AND down on the new earth.
God is bringing his Kingdom FROM heaven TO earth, so there will not be anyone UP in heaven. The redeemed will all be reigning with Christ here on the new earth that God will re-create or restore.

----------------------------------
My reply:
I don't believe the Word describes much about the new heavens or new earth and is what I'd describe as eternity. But, I believe it does describe quite a bit the Millennial reign of Christ on earth, an earthly kingdom, with the Church living in the New Jerusalem, either rotating earth or wherever it is.



Yes, those that are not saved are dead. But ALL of the dead are not necessarily unsaved. Because we know God will raise the righteous DEAD and give them new bodies.
-----------------------------------------------

My reply:
I'm somewhat a dispensationalist so prone to believe that at the pre-trib rapture of the Church God does raise those who believe in Christ and does give them new bodies along with the living believers as well. The book of Daniel also makes it sound as it O.T believers will be resurrected at a certain time also.
Regardless, I believe Those in Christ are alive and the dead in the passage of Rev. I put forth as being only the unsaved dead for after the books are opened they are only shown to go to the Lake of Fire. They are judged by their deeds. Those in Christ are no longer judged or condemned based on their deeds but rather they belong to Christ based on grace thru faith in His blood shed on the Cross for them. They have already been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb and have already passed out of condemnation.



When I first read this, and responded in a previous post, I thought you were saying something else, but now that I have re-read it, I am not sure what you are trying to express.

John says the dead, great and small, were standing before the throne. I believe this is ALL of the dead...believers and non believers. Because the dead are judged according to what they had done.
----------------------------------------------
My reply:

Believers are no longer under condemnation so then why should they be thrown out of the sea, death and Hades to appear before the judgment seat of Christ? For what's it's worth, I also do not see at this point where it says that the dead in Christ as well as the living in Christ meet the Lord in the air as their bodies change either. Do you?
----------------------------------
Death and Hades being thrown into the Lake of Fire is 1.) Anyone who does not have the seal of the Spirit and 2.) God destroying death forever. It will never be an enemy again. Regardless of whether one was in "Death" (the unsaved) or "Hades" (the grave), BOTH will be thrown into the Lake of Fire because God is destroying death forever. This is my take on it.

------------------------------------
My reply:

I just think it is interesting why it separates the dead coming from sea and then death and hades also gives up the dead that are in them. Aren't they all dead? Why the difference between the dead in the sea and the dead in "death and Hades" too?
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Okay, that's all. :)

God bless,
AlyssaSorry, I'm not too good at multiple quotes. :)
Anyway, that's getting well away of the subject of where the souls go when they die and of course not many on board will agree with me. You know, it's the pretrib thing! ;)

Some more interesting verses:
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26. and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die,

so we have the ones who live even if they die,
and we have those who live and believe who will never die.

God is not God of the dead, but of the living. He's not going to stop being my God after I die. That means I'm not going to not be living. :)

God is not God of the dead, but of the living. He's not going to stop being my God after I die. That means I'm not going to not be living. :)
Excellent! I love that and believe it too!

Some more interesting verses:
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26. and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die,

so we have the ones who live even if they die,
and we have those who live and believe who will never die.
I know I'm quoting myself but although these verses begin when speaking of the resurrection, I think they say so much more. This is how I take them.
First: he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.
The one who believes in Christ and dies physically will live. (the resurrection?)

Second:Everyone who lives (or is alive physically) and believes in Me that one will never die spiritually? Has to be spiritually when they die physically because all die physically because of sin or it is speaking of the rapture? I'm taking note of the tenses of the words given in the sentences.
Will live. Who lives.

God is not God of the dead, but of the living. He's not going to stop being my God after I die. That means I'm not going to not be living. :)
In reference to the "God is the God of the living" verses, the living part is in reference to the resurrection when Christ was responding to the Sadducees that didn't believe in it:


Matthew 22:23-33 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her." Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Luke 20:27-38 Then some of the Sadducees, who deny that there is a resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man's brother dies, having a wife, and he dies without children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were seven brothers. And the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her as wife, and he died childless. Then the third took her, and in like manner the seven also; and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife." And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

Mark 12:18-27 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man's brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife." Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."

In reference to the "God is the God of the living" verses, the living part is in reference to the resurrection when Christ was responding to the Sadducees that didn't believe in it:



Matthew 22:23-33 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her." Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Luke 20:27-38 Then some of the Sadducees, who deny that there is a resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man's brother dies, having a wife, and he dies without children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were seven brothers. And the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her as wife, and he died childless. Then the third took her, and in like manner the seven also; and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife." And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

Mark 12:18-27 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man's brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife." Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."



Thanks for posting this!

We definitely need to keep things in context when studying Scripture. The "God of the Living," is clearly speaking of The Resurrection. Here again... the focus is on the Resurrection.

And still, even if we are dead (in the grave)... we have the promise of life. In God's eyes we are alive because we have the "seed of salvation." We are always in his care if we are his. We have salvation now... But our salvation is not fully realized until the Lord resurrects our dead bodies from the grave on Resurrection Day and gives us new bodies. This is Salvation in its fullness... even though we have salvation now.

God bless,
Alyssa

I know I'm quoting myself but although these verses begin when speaking of the resurrection, I think they say so much more. This is how I take them.
First: he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.
The one who believes in Christ and dies physically will live. (the resurrection?)

Second:Everyone who lives (or is alive physically) and believes in Me that one will never die spiritually? Has to be spiritually when they die physically because all die physically because of sin or it is speaking of the rapture? I'm taking note of the tenses of the words given in the sentences.
Will live. Who lives.

Amen!! I agree. "Will" live... When? At the Resurrection. Seems like that's what it is saying to me....since the Resurrection is the subject.

"He will never die"... is the second death. (The Lake of Fire).

What's also interesting is the verses just prior to this one. Jesus is speaking of Lazarus who has "fallen asleep." The disciples thought he meant "natural sleep." But Jesus cleared things up by telling them, "He is DEAD." If Lazarus was alive in heaven, why did Jesus say he was DEAD? Jesus said, "Let us go to him." He did not say, "Let me call him down from heaven."

I just wonder... if Jesus is speaking merely of the body, why isn't there ever just ONCE a reference to the dead being in heaven? There isn't. Why didn't Jesus say something to the effect of, "Since Lazarus is dead and is now in heaven with the Father, I am going to call his spirit down." But Jesus says he is asleep.

Jesus also says, "Your brother WILL RISE AGAIN." But wait... hasn't his soul already risen? Isn't he already in heaven?

Jesus then says, "Lazarus, Come OUT!"
If he is in heaven, why doesn't he say, "Lazarus, Come DOWN!"

I don't know... maybe it is speaking only of the body. But it would seem we would have a ticked off Lazarus...seeing that he was just in glory with the Father being brought back to this stinky ole earth. But we don't see that picture. If I'm in heaven in all its perfection, I certainly don't want to be brought back into my stinky ole body to this stinky ole earth.

But then on the flip side, I do not see how one could be in heaven where there are "no tears" knowing that down on earth I have relatives and friends suffering from illnesses and broken hearts etc. How could I enjoy heaven knowing some of my loved ones are suffering down on earth? That doesn't make sense.

I don't know... all I know for sure is that my next conscious thought after death will be in the presence of my Savior. That's the most important thing. THAT is my blessed hope!

God bless,
Alyssa

I know I'm quoting myself but although these verses begin when speaking of the resurrection, I think they say so much more. This is how I take them.
First: he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.
The one who believes in Christ and dies physically will live. (the resurrection?)

Second:Everyone who lives (or is alive physically) and believes in Me that one will never die spiritually? Has to be spiritually when they die physically because all die physically because of sin or it is speaking of the rapture? I'm taking note of the tenses of the words given in the sentences.
Will live. Who lives.

Good point.

Another way to say this would be:

John 11:24 "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"
Even though our bodies will die, they will live again in the resurrection on the last day.

John 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."
Those who believe in Jesus however, will never die. (their conscious spirit will continuing living in the Lord, even after their body dies.)

John 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."
Those who believe in Jesus however, will never die. (their conscious spirit will continuing living in the Lord, even after their body dies.)
If never dying in the sense of the immortality of the soul is applied based on those who believe in Jesus, then upon what basis do the wicked have an immortal soul?

Further a similar verse:
John 6:49-54 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. In this section Christ connects not dying, eternal life, with being raised at the last day.

Further still:
Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." If it is the wicked that are hurt by the second death, this implies that everyone experiences a first death. That is, why wouldn't these verses be saying that the righteous are protected from the first death?

Curious:
Genesis 3:1-5 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' " Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Do you think the serpent was lying or telling the truth?

Thanks, brother! Very cool!

Appreciate ya!

Alyssa

You are quite welcome!

If never dieing in the sense of the immortality of the soul is applied based on those who believe in Jesus, then upon what basis do the wicked have an immortal soul?

Further a similar verse: In this section Christ connects not dieing, eternal life, with being raised at the last day.

Further still: If it is the wicked that are hurt by the second death, this implies that everyone experiences a first death. That is, why wouldn't these verses be saying that the righteous are protected from the first death?

Curious: Do you think the serpent was lying or telling the truth?

These are good questions, WM. I am interested to hear what others opinions are on this.

~Alyssa

If never dying in the sense of the immortality of the soul is applied based on those who believe in Jesus, then upon what basis do the wicked have an immortal soul?

Yes, according to the scriptures, the wicked consciously live on forever after the body itself dies. There is no reprieve for the wicked from eternal damnation and torment.

"the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." Luke 16:23

"If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night; And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. " Revelation 14:9, 20:10







Further still: If it is the wicked that are hurt by the second death, this implies that everyone experiences a first death. That is, why wouldn't these verses be saying that the righteous are protected from the first death?

Curious: Do you think the serpent was lying or telling the truth?

All humans die a physical death....the death of the body. The soul which was created in the image of God however, never ceases to exist nor is it uncreated.

Of course the serpent was lying.

Serpent: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die" Gen 3:4

God: "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." Gen 5:5

And after 10 pages of discussing this soul-sleep topic from about every angle, and now that as the sister-view of it, annihilationism is starting to rear up and join the conversation; it is time to re-align with the forum guidelines here, and allow this thread to retire, before it crosses the line of boldly advancing the views of soul-sleep and annihilationism. Great latitude has been given in the topic for 10 pages to discuss each side of the coin; and we thank all who have participated.

In closing, the mainstream protestant viewpoint held by this board, is that the scripture clearly and harmoniously teach that the we follow the example of our Lord Jesus Christ in that when our material body dies and is buried, it lies unaware, unconscious, and stone-cold dead in the grave, awaiting the resurrection. However, our immaterial soul does not cease to exist, nor does it become unconscious and wait in the ground alone and unaware of the Lord's presence for hundreds or thousands of years; but rather returns to the Father to be in His presence as Stephen did, and as Paul longed for which is far better, awaiting the resurrection when like Jesus; our soul will reunite with our body being raised glorious, incorruptible, and eternally perfect like His.

Those who wish to continue to hold unorthodox views otherwise, I would thank you for your contributions, but ask that if you wish to further advance those topics; take them to another discussion board that you might find that welcomes them. Both the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists groups teach these doctrines. Perhaps the Christedelphians also...just can't remember for sure.

Thanks for everyone's contributions!
Dave Taylor, WR Mod-Staff