It is written: “And JESUS came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to ME in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in THE NAME of THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20NKJV)’”

Did JESUS CHRIST tell us to “make Disciples” or to make “Christians”?

If HE told us to “make Disciples” why are we not doing so?

What is a "Disciples"?
How does one "make" a "Disciples"?
What is a "Christian"?
What is the Scriptural origin of the word, "Christian(s)"?

What did JESUS CHRIST call HIS Followers ("Disciples" or "Christians")? Why? Why not?

Let's discuss it. . .because our LORD also said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)"

Hm... could this be... nitpicking over trivial matters?

Christ said "make disciples". The label "Christian" first was used at Antioch. Peter says we can bear the label "Christian" without feeling ashamed.

Did JESUS CHRIST tell us to “make Disciples” or to make “Christians”?

To make Disciples


If HE told us to “make Disciples” why are we not doing so? Who is "we"?


What is a "Disciples"? Simply put, it is a "follower". It is someone who follows a philosophy or teaching of another.


How does one "make" a "Disciples"? By educating them, equipping them, living by an example, holding them accountable to what is being taught, etc.


What is a "Christian"? "Little Christ", in other words, someone who follows Christ.


What is the Scriptural origin of the word, "Christian(s)"? Does there need to be one? Why or why not?


What did JESUS CHRIST call HIS Followers ("Disciples" or "Christians")? Why? Why not? Disciples, obviously. He doesn't say why. Does it matter?

To make Disciples

Who is "we"?

The "we" are the ones JESUS promises to be with "to the end of the age", since "we" do live in "the age" that has not yet ended. Don't we?


Does there need to be one?Do you not think it needful that you know the Biblical origin of a Word that you refer to yourself as being?


Disciples, obviously. He doesn't say why. Does it matter?Try a Scriptural word search for "Disciple(s)" and for "Christian(s)"; that is, see how many times each word appears in Scripture.

BTW, It must have matter to JESUS; HE's THE ONE WHO gave us the Command.

The "we" are the ones JESUS promises to be with "to the end of the age", since "we" do live in "the age" that has not yet ended. Don't we?

Don't you think it's a bit presumptuous for you to suggest that others (whom you don't even know) are not following this command?


Do you not think it needful that you know the Biblical origin of a Word that you refer to yourself as being?

Nope. The Word "Bible" and "Trinity" isn't found in Scripture either. Doesn't bother me at all.


Try a Scriptural word search for "Disciple(s)" and for "Christian(s)"; that is, see how many times each word appears in Scripture.

Like I said, I don't find it necessary for every word to be in Scripture. The concept is taught, thus we say it's "scriptural".


BTW, It must have matter to JESUS; HE's THE ONE WHO gave us the Command.

So did the Trinity not matter to Jesus? He never mentioned it....

There is literally no difference between a Christian, a disciple, a follower of the Way, etc. They are all synonymous.

Honestly, it sounds like you're just trying to rile up trouble by focusing on semantics.

To make disciples you must first be a disciple. Sometimes we get the cart before the horse and try to teach when we should be learning.Gaining the information is only the first step. We only become a true disciple when we actually walk this life out. I find myself lacking in some big areas.
rendering evil for evil.
loving those that hate me
turning the other cheek.

I do have a couple of thing down though.
being poor in spirit'
hunger and thirsting for righteousness

There is literally no difference between a Christian, a disciple, a follower of the Way, etc. They are all synonymous.

Honestly, it sounds like you're just trying to rile up trouble by focusing on semantics.

That's what I'm thinking.....

Regardless, both Acts and 1 Peter refer to disciples/followers of the Way as Christians. So it doesn't really seem to be that big of a deal...

Third'd........

Don't you think it's a bit presumptuous for you to suggest that others (whom you don't even know) are not following this command?

How "presumptuous" would I have to be in order to recognize that I wasn't asked if I were a "Disciple" in order to join this Forum? In fact "Disciple" is nowhere on the list. The operative word around here is "Christian"; and that's a good thing, in that it identifies us with JESUS CHRIST, of WHOM I am not ashamed.


Nope. The Word "Bible" and "Trinity" isn't found in Scripture either. Doesn't bother me at all.Do you call yourself either "Bible" or "Trinity"?


Like I said, I don't find it necessary for every word to be in Scripture. The concept is taught, thus we say it's "scriptural".The "word" "Disciple" is "in Scripture". And, "The concept" of Discipleship "is taught". And that's what this discussion is supposed to be about and how it relates to "Christian" and/or "Christianity".


So did the Trinity not matter to Jesus? He never mentioned it....We could do this all night Hope, JESUS never used the word "Trinity". Now if what you're talking about is "THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT", HE often spoke of THE THREE.

But back to my point, JESUS used, exclusively, the word, "Disciple(s)". Yes or No?

How "presumptuous" would I have to be in order to recognize that I wasn't asked if I were a "Disciple" in order to join this Forum?

Do you know what it means to presume? You should look it up, you're good at it :)

Your initial post presumed that "we" are not following Christ's command. You don't know what "we" do in real life. You are "presuming" based on a question posed by this Forum's qualifications for membership? Hmmmm


In fact "Disciple" is nowhere on the list. The operative word around here is "Christian"; and that's a good thing, in that it identifies us with JESUS CHRIST, of WHOM I am not ashamed.

Good. So what's the problem?


Do you call yourself either "Bible" or "Trinity"?

No?


The "word" "Disciple" is "in Scripture". And, "The concept" of Discipleship "is taught". And that's what this discussion is supposed to be about and how it relates to "Christian" and/or "Christianity".

Which is a moot point because it's semantics. They are essentially interchangeable.


We could do this all night Hope, JESUS never used the word "Trinity". Now if what you're talking about is "THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT", HE often spoke of THE THREE.

Right. He never said the word "Christian" but HE often spoke of His DISCIPLES (i.e. His followers). And...?


But back to my point, JESUS used, exclusively, the word, "Disciple(s)". Yes or No?

JESUS used, exclusively "THE FATHER" and "THE SON" and "THE HOLY SPIRIT". Yes or No? Should we not use "The Trinity"?

How about we just cut to the chase and you tell us what this topic is really about?

Which is a moot point because it's semantics. They are essentially interchangeable.
Right. He never said the word "Christian" but HE often spoke of His DISCIPLES (i.e. His followers). And...?

Wow, now why didn't I think of that? Hmmm, "it's semantics. They are essentially interchangeable.":

And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came unto him: (Matthew 5:1)

And another of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. (Matthew 8:21)

And when he was entered into a ship, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] followed him. (Matthew 8:23)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish. (Matthew 8:25)

And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (Matthew 9:10)

And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? (Matthew 9:11)

And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (Matthew 9:19)

Then saith he unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; (Matthew 9:37)

And when he had called unto him his twelve [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (Matthew 10:1)

And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities. (Matthew 11:1)

Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Matthew 11:2)

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. (Matthew 12:1)

And he stretched forth his hand toward his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! (Matthew 12:49)

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (Matthew 13:36)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus. (Matthew 14:12)

And when it was evening, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals. (Matthew 14:15)

And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and the [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] to the multitude. (Matthew 14:19)

And straightway Jesus constrained his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away. (Matthew 14:22)

Then came his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? (Matthew 15:12)

But he answered her not a word. And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. (Matthew 15:23)

Then Jesus called his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way. (Matthew 15:32)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude? (Matthew 15:33)

And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and the [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] to the multitude. (Matthew 15:36)

And when his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. (Matthew 16:5)

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? (Matthew 16:13)

Then charged he his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. (Matthew 16:20)

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. (Matthew 16:21)

Then said Jesus unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (Matthew 16:24)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? (Matthew 17:10)

His [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. (Matthew 19:10)

Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] rebuked them. (Matthew 19:13)

Then said Jesus unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 19:23)

When his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? (Matthew 19:25)

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Matthew 23:1)

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. (Matthew 24:1)

And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Matthew 26:1)

But when his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? (Matthew 26:8)

Then cometh he to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. (Matthew 26:45)

Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. (Matthew 27:64)

And go quickly, and tell his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. (Matthew 28:7)

And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] word. (Matthew 28:8)

And as they went to tell his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. (Matthew 28:9)

Saying, Say ye, His [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came by night, and stole him away while we slept. (Matthew 28:13)

But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? (Luke 5:30)

And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands. (Luke 6:1)

And when it was day, he called unto him his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; (Luke 6:13)

And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases; (Luke 6:17)

And he lifted up his eyes on his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. (Luke 6:20)

And it came to pass the day after, that he went into a city called Nain; and many of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] went with him, and much people. (Luke 7:11)

And John calling unto him two of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? (Luke 7:19)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] asked him, saying, What might this parable be? (Luke 8:9)

Now it came to pass on a certain day, that he went into a ship with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]: and he said unto them, Let us go over unto the other side of the lake. And they launched forth. (Luke 8:22)

Then he called his twelve [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. (Luke 9:1)

For they were about five thousand men. And he said to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Make them sit down by fifties in a company. (Luke 9:14)

And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? (Luke 9:18)

And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Luke 9:43)

And when his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? (Luke 9:54)

And he turned him unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: (Luke 10:23)

And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (Luke 11:1)

In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. (Luke 12:1)

And he said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. (Luke 12:22)

And he said also unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. (Luke 16:1)

And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] saw it, they rebuked them. (Luke 18:15)

And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Luke 19:29)

Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Luke 20:45)

And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] also followed him. (Luke 22:39)

And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], he found them sleeping for sorrow, (Luke 22:45)

Again the next day after John stood, and two of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]; (John 1:35)

And both Jesus was called, and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], to the marriage. (John 2:2)

This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] believed on him. (John 2:11)

After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]: and they continued there not many days. (John 2:12)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. (John 2:17)

When therefore he was risen from the dead, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. (John 2:22)

After these things came Jesus and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. (John 3:22)

(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]],) (John 4:2)

(For his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) (John 4:8)

And upon this came his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her? (John 4:27)

In the mean while his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] prayed him, saying, Master, eat. (John 4:31)

And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 6:3)

One of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him, (John 6:8)

When they were filled, he said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. (John 6:12)

And when even was now come, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] went down unto the sea, (John 6:16)

The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were entered, and that Jesus went not with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] into the boat, but that his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were gone away alone; (John 6:22)

When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. (John 6:24)

Many therefore of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? (John 6:60)

When Jesus knew in himself that his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? (John 6:61)

From that time many of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] went back, and walked no more with him. (John 6:66)

His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] also may see the works that thou doest. (John 7:3)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? (John 9:2)

He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]? (John 9:27)

Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 9:28)

Then after that saith he to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Let us go into Judaea again. (John 11:7)

His [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? (John 11:8)

Then said his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. (John 11:12)

Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 11:54)

Then saith one of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, (John 12:4)

These things understood not his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him. (John 12:16)

Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], whom Jesus loved. (John 13:23)

Then said some of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? (John 16:17)

His [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. (John 16:29)

When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 18:1)

And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 18:2)

The high priest then asked Jesus of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and of his doctrine. (John 18:19)

And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]? He denied it, and said, I am not. (John 18:25)

And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] glad, when they saw the Lord. (John 20:20)

The other [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. (John 20:25)

And after eight days again his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. (John 20:26)

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], which are not written in this book: (John 20:30)

There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 21:2)

This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], after that he was risen from the dead. (John 21:14)

Thanks for that revelation Hope.

Wow, now why didn't I think of that? Hmmm, "it's semantics. They are essentially interchangeable.":

And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came unto him: (Matthew 5:1)

And another of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. (Matthew 8:21)

And when he was entered into a ship, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] followed him. (Matthew 8:23)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish. (Matthew 8:25)

And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (Matthew 9:10)

And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? (Matthew 9:11)

And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (Matthew 9:19)

Then saith he unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; (Matthew 9:37)

And when he had called unto him his twelve [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (Matthew 10:1)

And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities. (Matthew 11:1)

Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Matthew 11:2)

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. (Matthew 12:1)

And he stretched forth his hand toward his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! (Matthew 12:49)

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (Matthew 13:36)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus. (Matthew 14:12)

And when it was evening, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals. (Matthew 14:15)

And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and the [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] to the multitude. (Matthew 14:19)

And straightway Jesus constrained his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away. (Matthew 14:22)

Then came his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? (Matthew 15:12)

But he answered her not a word. And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. (Matthew 15:23)

Then Jesus called his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way. (Matthew 15:32)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude? (Matthew 15:33)

And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and the [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] to the multitude. (Matthew 15:36)

And when his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. (Matthew 16:5)

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? (Matthew 16:13)

Then charged he his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. (Matthew 16:20)

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. (Matthew 16:21)

Then said Jesus unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (Matthew 16:24)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? (Matthew 17:10)

His [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. (Matthew 19:10)

Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] rebuked them. (Matthew 19:13)

Then said Jesus unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 19:23)

When his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? (Matthew 19:25)

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Matthew 23:1)

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. (Matthew 24:1)

And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Matthew 26:1)

But when his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? (Matthew 26:8)

Then cometh he to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. (Matthew 26:45)

Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. (Matthew 27:64)

And go quickly, and tell his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. (Matthew 28:7)

And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] word. (Matthew 28:8)

And as they went to tell his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. (Matthew 28:9)

Saying, Say ye, His [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] came by night, and stole him away while we slept. (Matthew 28:13)

But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? (Luke 5:30)

And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands. (Luke 6:1)

And when it was day, he called unto him his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; (Luke 6:13)

And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases; (Luke 6:17)

And he lifted up his eyes on his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. (Luke 6:20)

And it came to pass the day after, that he went into a city called Nain; and many of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] went with him, and much people. (Luke 7:11)

And John calling unto him two of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? (Luke 7:19)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] asked him, saying, What might this parable be? (Luke 8:9)

Now it came to pass on a certain day, that he went into a ship with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]: and he said unto them, Let us go over unto the other side of the lake. And they launched forth. (Luke 8:22)

Then he called his twelve [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. (Luke 9:1)

For they were about five thousand men. And he said to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Make them sit down by fifties in a company. (Luke 9:14)

And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? (Luke 9:18)

And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Luke 9:43)

And when his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? (Luke 9:54)

And he turned him unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: (Luke 10:23)

And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (Luke 11:1)

In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. (Luke 12:1)

And he said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. (Luke 12:22)

And he said also unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. (Luke 16:1)

And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] saw it, they rebuked them. (Luke 18:15)

And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Luke 19:29)

Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], (Luke 20:45)

And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] also followed him. (Luke 22:39)

And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], he found them sleeping for sorrow, (Luke 22:45)

Again the next day after John stood, and two of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]; (John 1:35)

And both Jesus was called, and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], to the marriage. (John 2:2)

This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] believed on him. (John 2:11)

After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]: and they continued there not many days. (John 2:12)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. (John 2:17)

When therefore he was risen from the dead, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. (John 2:22)

After these things came Jesus and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. (John 3:22)

(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]],) (John 4:2)

(For his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) (John 4:8)

And upon this came his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her? (John 4:27)

In the mean while his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] prayed him, saying, Master, eat. (John 4:31)

And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 6:3)

One of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him, (John 6:8)

When they were filled, he said unto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. (John 6:12)

And when even was now come, his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] went down unto the sea, (John 6:16)

The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were entered, and that Jesus went not with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] into the boat, but that his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were gone away alone; (John 6:22)

When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. (John 6:24)

Many therefore of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? (John 6:60)

When Jesus knew in himself that his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? (John 6:61)

From that time many of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] went back, and walked no more with him. (John 6:66)

His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] also may see the works that thou doest. (John 7:3)

And his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? (John 9:2)

He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]? (John 9:27)

Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 9:28)

Then after that saith he to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Let us go into Judaea again. (John 11:7)

His [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? (John 11:8)

Then said his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. (John 11:12)

Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 11:54)

Then saith one of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, (John 12:4)

These things understood not his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him. (John 12:16)

Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], whom Jesus loved. (John 13:23)

Then said some of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? (John 16:17)

His [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. (John 16:29)

When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 18:1)

And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 18:2)

The high priest then asked Jesus of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], and of his doctrine. (John 18:19)

And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]? He denied it, and said, I am not. (John 18:25)

And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] glad, when they saw the Lord. (John 20:20)

The other [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. (John 20:25)

And after eight days again his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]] were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. (John 20:26)

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], which are not written in this book: (John 20:30)

There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]]. (John 21:2)

This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his [[["CHRISTIANS"]]], after that he was risen from the dead. (John 21:14)

Thanks for that revelation Hope.

Again, your point?

Actually, I don't see the problem in that. No need for sarcasm (unless you're actually serious). Changing it doesn't change the meaning at all.

THOM,

You're being antagonistic again. This came up in another discussion, that I was having with you. Like last time, you're using an incredibly unnecessary level of sarcasm. This is why I quit the conversation I had with you previously. If you want to be able to engage people in a thoughtful and learning discussion, you really need to cut down on your sarcastic quips.

If we really want to get technical, the Greek term for a disciple simply means a follower. Christian means a follower of Christ. Thus, "Christian" really (in the Greek connotation of both words) fits under the term "disciple" as it is a more specified term.

I guess I'm not seeing the issue here.

If we really want to get technical, the Greek term for a disciple simply means a follower. Christian means a follower of Christ. Thus, "Christian" really (in the Greek connotation of both words) fits under the term "disciple" as it is a more specified term.

Awesome, so I guess the case is closed! :)


I guess I'm not seeing the issue here.

Psssst....maybe because there really isn't one. :cool:

Actually, I don't see the problem in that. No need for sarcasm (unless you're actually serious). Changing it doesn't change the meaning at all.


THOM,
You're being antagonistic again. This came up in another discussion, that I was having with you. Like last time, you're using an incredibly unnecessary level of sarcasm. This is why I quit the conversation I had with you previously. If you want to be able to engage people in a thoughtful and learning discussion, you really need to cut down on your sarcastic quips.


If we really want to get technical, the Greek term for a disciple simply means a follower. Christian means a follower of Christ. Thus, "Christian" really (in the Greek connotation of both words) fits under the term "disciple" as it is a more specified term.
I guess I'm not seeing the issue here.


How about we just cut to the chase and you tell us what this topic is really about?


Again, your point?

The word “Christians”, as given by those at Antioch, WAS NOT meant as title of honor and respect. This is why Peter, prior to stating, “Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf”, listed a group of people that “Christians” were being linked with (kinda like JESUS being linked to “publicans and sinners”) in the previous verse, “a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters”. But don’t miss the very next verse, “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”
Even King Agrippa was being somewhat sarcastic when he declared to Paul, “Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian”.

When the people of Antioch used the word, they were basically saying the equivalent of “here come those Je[hovah’]sus witnesses”. Yet we who Name THE NAME of JESUS CHRIST don’t have [NOT] one iota of a problem allowing sinners to define us (and they define us moreso today than back then. . .and we “Christians” have even redefined ourselves just to appease them), yet JESUS CHRIST, 1) specifically commanded us to “make Disciples”, 2) never used the word “Christians”, and 3) the only 3 times that "Christian(s)" is used in all of Scripture, versus the hundreds of times that the word “Disciples” is used, doesn’t seem to phase any of you that have reacted to the initial post thus far? Wow, now that’s really deep!

Just as applicable and apropos for so-called “Christians”, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, as it was for Israel then: “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.”

That’s my point.

And again, the questions that no one has answered:
Did JESUS CHRIST tell us to “make Disciples” or to make “Christians”?

If HE told us to “make Disciples” why are we not doing so?

What is a "Disciples"?
How does one "make" a "Disciples"?
What is a "Christian"?
What is the Scriptural origin of the word, "Christian(s)"?

What did JESUS CHRIST call HIS Followers ("Disciples" or "Christians")? Why? Why not?

'Disciple' and 'Christian' are meant to be synonymous.

Acts 11:26 The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch

If our modern day usage of the terms differentiates them, that is our fault.

The word “Christians”, as given by those at Antioch, WAS NOT meant as title of honor and respect.

I have always thought this referred to them being so much like Jesus in their behavior and demonstration of God's power that they were being called "little anointed ones":hmm:

Sadly, we don't seem to have this problem today:(

I have always thought this referred to them being so much like Jesus in their behavior and demonstration of God's power that they were being called "little anointed ones":hmm:

That's an excellent point. . .but a little bit deceptive when you consider that JESUS CHRIST never went (according to documented Scripture) to Antioch; so how would they know who the Disciples were imitating in "their behavior and demonstration of God's power", if those Disciples hadn't been Preaching The Gospel of JESUS CHRIST to them. . .and "making Disciples"?

As one of my Mentors told me, "A mist of a myth in/from the Pulpit, creates a fog of a belief in the Pews". We are not "little Christs", "little anointed ones", etc. We are just what Scripture states, "IN CHRIST";

And guess what, if we're not making "Disciples" as HE COMMANDED, JESUS CHRIST is not obligated to be "with you always, even to the end of the age". Making "Christians" may be a great intention. . .but it is NOT the Command that HE gave.

And remember that "jot and tittle" thing!!!


Sadly, we don't seem to have this problem today:(Amen to that.

The Hebrew term is 'Talmidim'. A Talmid ate, travelled, wept, laughed, copied his habits, nuances, pattern of speech, his actions; carried his master's yoke. This is why the Sanhedron recognized John and Peter as having been with Jesus. They acted, talked and walked just like Him. Not robotically, they had their own gifts, but in every other way. To be a disciple was to walk in the Master's dust.

I'm happy just to be His bondservent. I could care less about titles.

Hi Thom -

I have hesitated jumping into this discussion but would like to share these few thoughts with you.

We do not "make" Christians - the Holy Spirit does. We can disciple people by teaching them what we know and demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit by our lives.

The term Christian to me has always meant:
Christ in me, the hope of glory.

Again - I just wanted to share. I'm with Keck on this one - you can call me anything you want to, even late for dinner. I have been bought and paid for, therefore I am a bondservant of the Almighty, a child of the King.

V

Hi Thom -

I have hesitated jumping into this discussion but would like to share these few thoughts with you.

We do not "make" Christians - the Holy Spirit does. We can disciple people by teaching them what we know and demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit by our lives.

The term Christian to me has always meant:
Christ in me, the hope of glory.

Again - I just wanted to share. I'm with Keck on this one - you can call me anything you want to, even late for dinner. I have been bought and paid for, therefore I am a bondservant of the Almighty, a child of the King.

V

Greetings V,

Exactly! We (Christians) make disciples; i.e. one who learns or a pupil. But only Christ can make a Christian; i.e. a follower of Christ. We are commanded to "go" and make disciples...how do we do this? By showing them Christ, and helping them to become a pupil, or one who also learns of Christ. If it is God's will to make them a Christian, then God will make them willing through the power of the Word (we bring) and the Holy Spirit. BIG DIFFERENCE in being one who stays a learner or pupil and one who is actually transformed into a Christian. Many, many, many professing Christians remain pupils or those who learn about Christ, but never become born again by the power of God.

Very good question Thom!

Many Blessings,
RW

The word “Christians”, as given by those at Antioch, WAS NOT meant as title of honor and respect.

There you go presuming again :) How do you know this? What is your source for this information?


This is why Peter, prior to stating, “Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf”, listed a group of people that “Christians” were being linked with (kinda like JESUS being linked to “publicans and sinners”) in the previous verse, “a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters”. But don’t miss the very next verse, “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” What justification do you have for the statement "this is why"? How did you arrive at this interpretation?


Even King Agrippa was being somewhat sarcastic when he declared to Paul, “Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian”. How do you know this was said sarcastically?


When the people of Antioch used the word, they were basically saying the equivalent of “here come those Je[hovah’]sus witnesses”. How do you know this?


Yet we who Name THE NAME of JESUS CHRIST don’t have [NOT] one iota of a problem allowing sinners to define us (and they define us moreso today than back then. . .and we “Christians” have even redefined ourselves just to appease them), yet JESUS CHRIST, 1) specifically commanded us to “make Disciples”, 2) never used the word “Christians”, and 3) the only 3 times that "Christian(s)" is used in all of Scripture, versus the hundreds of times that the word “Disciples” is used, doesn’t seem to phase any of you that have reacted to the initial post thus far? Wow, now that’s really deep! Or really shallow. So, you're saying using the word "Christian" to define ourselves is wrong?


Just as applicable and apropos for so-called “Christians”, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, as it was for Israel then: “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.”

That’s my point. Sorry, still not getting it. Are you saying we shouldn't call ourselves "Christians"? Who are you implying is lacking knowledge?


And again, the questions that no one has answered:
Did JESUS CHRIST tell us to “make Disciples” or to make “Christians”?

If HE told us to “make Disciples” why are we not doing so?

What is a "Disciples"?
How does one "make" a "Disciples"?
What is a "Christian"?
What is the Scriptural origin of the word, "Christian(s)"?

What did JESUS CHRIST call HIS Followers ("Disciples" or "Christians")? Why? Why not?I answered these. I don't think you liked my answers.

The charge is pretty clear. I don't think there is room for changing the intent of it.

Mat 28:19-20
(19) Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh,
(20) and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age."


It says disciples. We all know what that means, but we dance around it because it forces us to renew our minds and actually submit to God.

The word “Christians”, as given by those at Antioch, WAS NOT meant as title of honor and respect. This is why Peter, prior to stating, “Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf”, listed a group of people that “Christians” were being linked with (kinda like JESUS being linked to “publicans and sinners”) in the previous verse, “a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters”. But don’t miss the very next verse, “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”
Even King Agrippa was being somewhat sarcastic when he declared to Paul, “Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian”.

When the people of Antioch used the word, they were basically saying the equivalent of “here come those Je[hovah’]sus witnesses”. Yet we who Name THE NAME of JESUS CHRIST don’t have [NOT] one iota of a problem allowing sinners to define us (and they define us moreso today than back then. . .and we “Christians” have even redefined ourselves just to appease them), yet JESUS CHRIST, 1) specifically commanded us to “make Disciples”, 2) never used the word “Christians”, and 3) the only 3 times that "Christian(s)" is used in all of Scripture, versus the hundreds of times that the word “Disciples” is used, doesn’t seem to phase any of you that have reacted to the initial post thus far? Wow, now that’s really deep!

Just as applicable and apropos for so-called “Christians”, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, as it was for Israel then: “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.”

That’s my point.

And again, the questions that no one has answered:
Did JESUS CHRIST tell us to “make Disciples” or to make “Christians”?

If HE told us to “make Disciples” why are we not doing so?

What is a "Disciples"?
How does one "make" a "Disciples"?
What is a "Christian"?
What is the Scriptural origin of the word, "Christian(s)"?

What did JESUS CHRIST call HIS Followers ("Disciples" or "Christians")? Why? Why not?


I haven't answered your question because I don't respond to stupid questions (how's that for being blunt?).

It's a silly debate to be completely honest with you and it betrays a distinct lack of understanding on what "Christian" means, how it was used, and who used it.

I don't know where this idea of it being an insult came from. Maybe it's something I've missed, but no where in Scripture does it say, "Oh, this was an insult." None of the ECF that I've read discuss it being an insult either. In fact, almost all of the ECF call themselves Christians and disciples - they use the term synonymously.

Furthermore, how do you deal with the fact that "disciple" in Greek is a broad term while "Christian" simply means "follower [disciple] of Christ"?

You're throwing a lot of venom and hot air out there, but lacking a lot of substance. Sorry to be so harsh, but such attitude really can't be tolerated...

I mean, if you want to get hyper-literal here, lets. You're going to hell for using the term "disciple." You are going to be cast away because of a lack of knowledge. Jesus actually said for us to make mathetes. You're saying disciple, not mathetes, ergo, you're going to Hell.

See how silly such an argument is? "Christian" in the Greek (Christianos) literally means, "a disciple of Christ." So you're basing your entire argument off your own ignorance that "Christian" and "disciple" mean the same thing - "Christian" is just a specified term.

Finally, your interpretation of 1 Peter is absurd. The verse prior is talking about suffering for unrighteous reasons. If people hate you because you're a sinner, then you deserve it. Verse 16, however, is saying, "If any of you suffer as a disciple of Christ, then take glorify God."

You're going to a great length to prove a point that is really laughable if you look at the Greek. You're saying, "Christ said to make disciples, not Christians!" To the student of Greek, however, it translates into, "Christ said to make disciples, not disciples of Christ!"

:lol:

I haven't answered your question because I don't respond to stupid questions (how's that for being blunt?).

It's a silly debate to be completely honest with you and it betrays a distinct lack of understanding on what "Christian" means, how it was used, and who used it.

I don't know where this idea of it being an insult came from. Maybe it's something I've missed, but no where in Scripture does it say, "Oh, this was an insult." None of the ECF that I've read discuss it being an insult either. In fact, almost all of the ECF call themselves Christians and disciples - they use the term synonymously.

Furthermore, how do you deal with the fact that "disciple" in Greek is a broad term while "Christian" simply means "follower [disciple] of Christ"?

You're throwing a lot of venom and hot air out there, but lacking a lot of substance. Sorry to be so harsh, but such attitude really can't be tolerated...

I mean, if you want to get hyper-literal here, lets. You're going to hell for using the term "disciple." You are going to be cast away because of a lack of knowledge. Jesus actually said for us to make mathetes. You're saying disciple, not mathetes, ergo, you're going to Hell.

See how silly such an argument is? "Christian" in the Greek (Christianos) literally means, "a disciple of Christ." So you're basing your entire argument off your own ignorance that "Christian" and "disciple" mean the same thing - "Christian" is just a specified term.

Finally, your interpretation of 1 Peter is absurd. The verse prior is talking about suffering for unrighteous reasons. If people hate you because you're a sinner, then you deserve it. Verse 16, however, is saying, "If any of you suffer as a disciple of Christ, then take glorify God."

Thank you! I started looking through various commentaries and couldn't find a SINGLE one that agreed with THOM's interpretation.


You're going to a great length to prove a point that is really laughable if you look at the Greek. You're saying, "Christ said to make disciples, not Christians!" To the student of Greek, however, it translates into, "Christ said to make disciples, not disciples of Christ!"

:lol:

Exactly. Jesus never said "read your Bible" either. So I guess we're wrong for telling people to read their Bibles too, haha.

LOL. People were lucky if their town had one copy of Torah, Prophets and writings, let alone Bibles. But He did read Scripture in congregations on Shabbat.

Thank you! I started looking through various commentaries and couldn't find a SINGLE one that agreed with THOM's interpretation.



Exactly. Jesus never said "read your Bible" either. So I guess we're wrong for telling people to read their Bibles too, haha.


Jesus never told me to drink water...I shouldn't drink water.

I haven't answered your question because I don't respond to stupid questions (how's that for being blunt?).

It's a silly debate to be completely honest with you and it betrays a distinct lack of understanding on what "Christian" means, how it was used, and who used it.

Greetings AK,

The question is by no means stupid! Do you believe you can make a Christian? Anyone can be a disciple or a pupil of Christ and learn the doctrines of Christ, and this is why we are commanded to go and make disciples; i.e. those who learn of Christ. But only Christ can make a Christian! And Christ uses the foolishness of preaching, the gospel of salvation to make Christians. The question is very relevent because some really believe they are called to make Christians...as though that were even possible. NO! We are commaned to "go" and make disciples, or learners of Christ and His doctrine, and He (Christ alone) will make Christians of whosoever He will.

Many Blessings,
RW

Instead of making fun of the poster, or demeaning him, why not just explain what you believe and leave it at that? The Holy Spirit opens hearts and minds; it is He Who convicts. Our job (at least in my mind) is to give an account of what we believe and why we believe it - nothing more and nothing less.
V

Greetings AK,

The question is by no means stupid! Do you believe you can make a Christian? Anyone can be a disciple or a pupil of Christ and the doctrines of Christ, and this is why we are commanded to go and make disciples; i.e. those who learn of Christ. But only Christ can make a Christian! And Christ uses the foolishness of preaching, the gospel of salvation to make Christians. The question is very relevent because some really believe they are called to make Christians...as though that were even possible. NO! We are commaned to "go" and make disciples, or learners of Christ and His doctrine, and He (Christ alone) will make Christians of whosoever He will.

Many Blessings,
RW


I'm a firm believer that there are such things as stupid questions (I should know, I've asked them).

If he meant it the way you mean it, then of course it's not stupid. However, he's asking if we should call ourselves Christians. He's saying, "We're disciples, not Christians." At least, that's how it's coming across. THAT is what I'm saying is stupid (and it is, there isn't really a kinder word for it). A person can call me a monkey for all I care, so long as the connotation is "follower of Christ," doesn't really concern me.

Instead of making fun of the poster, or demeaning him, why not just explain what you believe and leave it at that? The Holy Spirit opens hearts and minds; it is He Who convicts. Our job (at least in my mind) is to give an account of what we believe and why we believe it - nothing more and nothing less.
V


I'm making fun of the belief, not the poster. My apologies if it came across as if I were attacking the poster. That's not my intention at all.

I am, however, mocking the belief, because it is a silly one.

Why mock at all? Just state what you believe and why - no reason to belittle the thoughts of others, is there?

While you may feel a thought or belief is "stupid", it obviously isn't to the person who made the statement. Most people invest a huge part of themselves into what they believe.
V

Why mock at all? Just state what you believe and why - no reason to belittle the thoughts of others, is there?

While you may feel a thought or belief is "stupid", it obviously isn't to the person who made the statement. Most people invest a huge part of themselves into what they believe.
V

Well....the Bible openly mocks quite a few beliefs...so...I think we've taken "compassion" and "patience" and made them polar opposites to "satire" and "mocking." I don't see them as separate in all cases. I think satire and mocking, biblically, have their place.

I find it amusing - the endless fight for the title "Christian." It is more or less a title of judgment for people to view one another when the title itself is very vague and its true definition differs from person to person.

Well....the Bible openly mocks quite a few beliefs...so...I think we've taken "compassion" and "patience" and made them polar opposites to "satire" and "mocking." I don't see them as separate in all cases. I think satire and mocking, biblically, have their place.
As do I - just not on a Christian forum where neither you nor I know most others.

But that's just my thoughts.

In the end what matters is we have Christ in us which makes us both Christian through the sealing and indwelling of the Holy Spirit and disciples because we thirst to learn more about the risen Savior.

Peace -
V

It's not the words or labels that count, it's the deeds. It would be the same if many people labeled themselves Disciples and didn't follow the teachings of Christ. They wouldn't be Disciples. Let's not get hung up on the terminology and focus instead on how we can mentor more discipleship among our Christian brothers and sisters.
Just my .02.

Greetings AK,

The question is by no means stupid! Do you believe you can make a Christian? Anyone can be a disciple or a pupil of Christ and learn the doctrines of Christ, and this is why we are commanded to go and make disciples; i.e. those who learn of Christ. But only Christ can make a Christian! And Christ uses the foolishness of preaching, the gospel of salvation to make Christians. The question is very relevent because some really believe they are called to make Christians...as though that were even possible. NO! We are commaned to "go" and make disciples, or learners of Christ and His doctrine, and He (Christ alone) will make Christians of whosoever He will.

Many Blessings,
RW

If this is what the OP is trying to convey, he hasn't done that very clearly. In fact, I've asked him to clarify his point multiple times...and it still appears his issue is with the word "Christian" period. Notice how he has gone to great lengths (not to mention, taken liberties with Scripture) to try to "prove" that using the term "Christian" is derrogatory, that Jesus never used it, etc.

Also, I think that the personal comments and "corrections" of one another should be done in private, not in the topic. Using the topic to voice your concerns about how someone else is posting (or your disapproval) should be a) reported to a moderator if you feel it is warranted or b) done in private. While someone's post may have been offensive to you, it is equally offensive (to some) for people to derail a topic in order to air their grievance with another poster.

Grazie!

Yeah I don't get what you're getting at either.

I'm a Christian because I follow Christ. "Disciple" means to follow. I follow Christ, Christian=disciple....why are you nitpicking? Does Jesus have to use a specific word? Does it matter, as long as you know what He's talking about?

I find it amusing - the endless fight for the title "Christian." It is more or less a title of judgment for people to view one another when the title itself is very vague and its true definition differs from person to person.

Self edification dost know no endeth.

Ok, so far I've read about deeds, doctrine and what I consider the closest to the mark - the indwelt Spirit of God pointed out by Vhayes. All are important, but what do they lead to? What is the goal? What does God really want?

We can obey Him; learn all about Him, do rituals, pray, read His Word, even love each other, beat each other sideways with doctrine and argue endlessly about how we worship Him or obey Him, but we still miss the mark.

What does God want from us? He wants us to know Him. Like we know our husbands, wives, children and friends. We should tell Him what's on our minds. Our plans, our hopes, our dreams. Our successes, our failures. Did we not tell our moms and dads these things, although they already knew? Tell Him when we are angry or feel hate towards someone. Tell Him when we love someone, and why. Tell Him when we hurt, when we are happy.

How can He respond if we don't reach out to Him with all our hearts and thoughts? How can He teach us that which we hide? Is there someone I can't forgive? If so, I tell Him. Yes, He already knows, but do you not tell your closest spouse or friend what they already know? He wants to be the one to minister to us. He's the one who can heal us.

Brothers and sisters, before God offered us the gift of His indwelt Spirit, our forefathers had to draw near to God through the rising smoke of a korban olam. Do we realize how easy He made it for us?

Let Him be our Father. Know Him, not of Him. That's His passion.

Why mock at all? Just state what you believe and why - no reason to belittle the thoughts of others, is there?
While you may feel a thought or belief is "stupid", it obviously isn't to the person who made the statement. Most people invest a huge part of themselves into what they believe.
V

Your words ring so very true. I thank you for that. I never thought (which is totally my fault) I would receive such from the poster you're addressing with this response.


The charge is pretty clear. I don't think there is room for changing the intent of it.
Mat 28:19-20
(19) Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh,
(20) and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age."
It says disciples. We all know what that means, but we dance around it because it forces us to renew our minds and actually submit to God.

Thanks you both Keck and Vhayes, I won't forget your patience; Believe it or not it has already rubbed off on me:D!

I read in another thread where someone asked if, "And HE said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:15-18)", was applicable today to us; and I immediately started thinking about "The Great Commission", as recorded by Matthew; and then it was brought to my "remembrance", (something that I had not seen discussed in this forum since my arrival) specifically what I had learn early on in my walk with JESUS CHRIST: "Make Disciples".
Why is it important? Other than JESUS CHRIST Commanding it (which is enough for me, no matter how trivial it may seem to others), When it had been taught to me, I immediately grasped how easy it is to do; Why it needs to be done; How to do it; and All the benefits that go along with doing it, whether I could fully see/understand how it would go, even, against the grain of traditionally accepted "Christianity". . .especially today, and ESPECIALLY NOW, in this forum.

But then my FATHER in Heaven rewards me for my obedience to HIM, and not necessarily for my popularity and acceptance by my so-called siblings, huh. When I read some of the reactions to my posts in this forum, I thought of David, when he inquired about this Goliath fellow: "who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?", and that to me is what the world is doing to us, instead of us, as the Children of THE MOST HIGH GOD, doing to them, even as it was said of the First (and Early) Disciples of Christ, "These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also (Acts 17:6)." But, alas, it seems as though we're much too busy turning each other "upside down", instead of "the world", huh? But I digress.

Here's my bottom line on the subject of "make Disciples":

Its a COMMAND; not just a good idea; not a suggestion; IT IS an IMPERATIVE! As someone has so Adequately and Appropriately stated: "You cannot make 'Christians', we can only 'make Disciples'." It may be, for some, a matter of "semantics", but THE COMMAND is to "make Disciples"; it may not matter to some what they're called, but THE COMMAND is to "make Disciples". And since it HIS COMMAND, its HIS WAY or...

Being and/or claiming to be a "Christian" is free in that it cost very little, if anything; Being a "Disciple" and/or becoming a "Disciple" is very very costly. Just look at all the ones who lost their physical lives for the cause of JESUS CHRIST.

But to "make Disciples" is easy, because as Scripture tells us, “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus (Acts 4:13).”,

"And HE ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils (Mark 3:14-15)."

All you have to do to "make Disciples", is to allow them to be with you. And see, everyone reading this now, have been 'making Disciples' all along, and never even knew it, huh?:idea:

How to “make disciples”: “Go”, “Baptize”, and “Teach”.

“Go”: “And THE LORD said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled (Luke 14:23).”

“Baptize”: “. . .them in THE NAME of THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT...(Matthew 28:19)”

The problem here is that no one, in recorded Scripture, ever baptized anyone “in THE NAME of THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”, although they baptized, “in JESUS’ NAME”. So what is the situation here? Great question! Better answer!!!

Grammatically, it is impossible to “baptize. . .in THE NAME", Singular, of THREE PERSONS (“THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”); you can only “baptize. . .in THE NAME", of THREE PERSONS (“THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”)”, if THE THREE PERSON are really only and just ONE.

The word “baptize”, in the Greek (baptizõ), means to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge, to overwhelm, by becoming one in identity with; or identifying with.
So then the sum of "baptize" is moreso Spiritual (and the proper frame of mind) than Physical. . .that is to Cause them to become Immersed/Submerged in their Identification as a Child of THE FATHER, who is and looks just like THE SON, and Sealed, Kept, Taught and Comforted by THE HOLY SPIRIT.

“Teach”: “. . .them to observe all things that I have commanded you; (Matthew 28:20)”

The benefits to "make Disciples": ". . .lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age"; but that's only if you "make Disciples".

Very nice. Thank you for sharing! Iron/Iron stuff here!

*sigh*

Christian and disciple are synonymous in the Greek. To be a Christian, by its very definition, is to be a disciple of Christ. Is this really difficult to understand? I consider myself a Christian. I guess I'm going to Hell now.

No one has said you are going to hell, AK. Give us a break already, please. We haven't even necessarily disagreed with you, just expounded on what WE think the words mean. I can be a disciple of Christ, learn about Him, read the gospels and still not be a Christian.

And I apologize to the original poster if I have taken the thread off track.
V

No one has said you are going to hell, AK. Give us a break already, please. We haven't even necessarily disagreed with you, just expounded on what WE think the words mean. I can be a disciple of Christ, learn about Him, read the gospels and still not be a Christian.

And I apologize to the original poster if I have taken the thread off track.
V

It's justified hyperbole Vhayes. When we come out and say, "No, we're called to be DISCIPLES, not Christians!" we're making an argument about of nothing.

And words mean things, not just what they mean to us. "Christian" means "disciple of Christ," for for him to come on here and go off on us (and the board description) for using "Christian" instead of "disciple" is a bit absurd. The hyperbole is completely justified.

Ak - I think you and I are polar opposites when it comes to dealing with people, whether we disagree with them or agree with them. Personalities are created for reasons - you reach some, I reach others and both of us still have quite a bit to learn and a long way to go before we go home. But what REALLY matters is, I know our Father loves us both.

Blessings to you -
V

Ak - I think you and I are polar opposites when it comes to dealing with people, whether we disagree with them or agree with them. Personalities are created for reasons - you reach some, I reach others and both of us still have quite a bit to learn and a long way to go before we go home. But what REALLY matters is, I know our Father loves us both.

Blessings to you -
V

I can accept that. :)

Cool!! :hug:

and the rest of the 15 characters.

With that lets all have a group hug :hug:

OK... focus people....

let us reason together take 120937646683

annnnd Action! *click

With that lets all have a group hug :hug:

OK... focus people....

let us reason together take 120937646683

annnnd Action! *click


Amen to that, my Brother!

It is written: “And JESUS came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to ME in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in THE NAME of THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20NKJV)’”

Did JESUS CHRIST tell us to “make Disciples” or to make “Christians”?

If HE told us to “make Disciples” why are we not doing so?

What is a "Disciples"?
How does one "make" a "Disciples"?
What is a "Christian"?
What is the Scriptural origin of the word, "Christian(s)"?

What did JESUS CHRIST call HIS Followers ("Disciples" or "Christians")? Why? Why not?

Let's discuss it. . .because our LORD also said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)"

As far as it is written when we do as Christ has commanded we are known as his Disciples;

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Are we Christians if we love one another as Christ has commanded?

Are we Disciples if we love one another as Christ has commanded?

Is there any difference? no there is not.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Your words ring so very true. I thank you for that. I never thought (which is totally my fault) I would receive such from the poster you're addressing with this response.

Thanks you both Keck and Vhayes, I won't forget your patience; Believe it or not it has already rubbed off on me:D!

I read in another thread where someone asked if, "And HE said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:15-18)", was applicable today to us; and I immediately started thinking about "The Great Commission", as recorded by Matthew; and then it was brought to my "remembrance", (something that I had not seen discussed in this forum since my arrival) specifically what I had learn early on in my walk with JESUS CHRIST: "Make Disciples".
Why is it important? Other than JESUS CHRIST Commanding it (which is enough for me, no matter how trivial it may seem to others), When it had been taught to me, I immediately grasped how easy it is to do; Why it needs to be done; How to do it; and All the benefits that go along with doing it, whether I could fully see/understand how it would go, even, against the grain of traditionally accepted "Christianity". . .especially today, and ESPECIALLY NOW, in this forum.

But then my FATHER in Heaven rewards me for my obedience to HIM, and not necessarily for my popularity and acceptance by my so-called siblings, huh. When I read some of the reactions to my posts in this forum, I thought of David, when he inquired about this Goliath fellow: "who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?", and that to me is what the world is doing to us, instead of us, as the Children of THE MOST HIGH GOD, doing to them, even as it was said of the First (and Early) Disciples of Christ, "These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also (Acts 17:6)." But, alas, it seems as though we're much too busy turning each other "upside down", instead of "the world", huh? But I digress.

Here's my bottom line on the subject of "make Disciples":

Its a COMMAND; not just a good idea; not a suggestion; IT IS an IMPERATIVE! As someone has so Adequately and Appropriately stated: "You cannot make 'Christians', we can only 'make Disciples'." It may be, for some, a matter of "semantics", but THE COMMAND is to "make Disciples"; it may not matter to some what they're called, but THE COMMAND is to "make Disciples". And since it HIS COMMAND, its HIS WAY or...

Being and/or claiming to be a "Christian" is free in that it cost very little, if anything; Being a "Disciple" and/or becoming a "Disciple" is very very costly. Just look at all the ones who lost their physical lives for the cause of JESUS CHRIST.

But to "make Disciples" is easy, because as Scripture tells us, “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus (Acts 4:13).”,

"And HE ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils (Mark 3:14-15)."

All you have to do to "make Disciples", is to allow them to be with you. And see, everyone reading this now, have been 'making Disciples' all along, and never even knew it, huh?:idea:

How to “make disciples”: “Go”, “Baptize”, and “Teach”.

“Go”: “And THE LORD said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled (Luke 14:23).”

“Baptize”: “. . .them in THE NAME of THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT...(Matthew 28:19)”

The problem here is that no one, in recorded Scripture, ever baptized anyone “in THE NAME of THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”, although they baptized, “in JESUS’ NAME”. So what is the situation here? Great question! Better answer!!!

Grammatically, it is impossible to “baptize. . .in THE NAME", Singular, of THREE PERSONS (“THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”); you can only “baptize. . .in THE NAME", of THREE PERSONS (“THE FATHER and of THE SON and of THE HOLY SPIRIT”)”, if THE THREE PERSON are really only and just ONE.

The word “baptize”, in the Greek (baptizõ), means to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge, to overwhelm, by becoming one in identity with; or identifying with.
So then the sum of "baptize" is moreso Spiritual (and the proper frame of mind) than Physical. . .that is to Cause them to become Immersed/Submerged in their Identification as a Child of THE FATHER, who is and looks just like THE SON, and Sealed, Kept, Taught and Comforted by THE HOLY SPIRIT.

“Teach”: “. . .them to observe all things that I have commanded you; (Matthew 28:20)”

The benefits to "make Disciples": ". . .lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age"; but that's only if you "make Disciples".

Greetings Thom,

I'm really glad you shared this. I too have believed for a while now that we (Christians) have horribly misunderstood "the Great Commission." We are commanded to "make disciples", and one of the ways we do this is through "baptism." Do I mean getting them fully wet? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I mean by "baptism" to immerse them completely, overwhelm them with the teachings of Christ. When we faithfully "make disciples"; i.e. tell unbelievers of the Lord, of His glorious gospel of salvation, then God ALONE will make "Christians" of all whom He chooses.

Excellent exegetical interpretation of the Great Commission! Thank You!

Many Blessings,
RW

Wow.

I don't know about other people here, but i think this is a pointless thread and should be closed.

Just my opinion, though.

let us reason together take 120937646683



Ha! God said that....

Isa 1:18
(18) "Come now, and let us reason together,........."

I still maintain that we can only take an unbeliever up to the cross. The rest is God's work.

Greetings Thom,

I'm really glad you shared this. I too have believed for a while now that we (Christians) have horribly misunderstood "the Great Commission." We are commanded to "make disciples", and one of the ways we do this is through "baptism." Do I mean getting them fully wet? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I mean by "baptism" to immerse them completely, overwhelm them with the teachings of Christ. When we faithfully "make disciples"; i.e. tell unbelievers of the Lord, of His glorious gospel of salvation, then God ALONE will make "Christians" of all whom He chooses.

Excellent exegetical interpretation of the Great Commission! Thank You!

Many Blessings,
RW

Thank you so much Roger, sometimes I know what I'm talking about, but have a little trouble expressing this, by coming off in the [perceived] wrong way. . .but if I do so here with you (and others) here, as my siblings, I have forever and ever to try and explain it to you all, huh?

One of the things that I may not have made clear is that, Making "disciples" is for believer ONLY, once they become [even so-called] "Christians". When they see JESUS CHRIST OUTSIDE of you, they will FREELY and WILLINGLY Follow you as you follow CHRIST!

When they had Paul incarcerated on many occasions, scholars tell us that they wouldn't leave the guards on Paul for any extended length of time because Paul would lead them to JESUS CHRIST. Remember Acts 16? If they ain't asking us, ". . .what must I do to be saved?", then not only aren't we making any disciples, we ain't [making no:B], making any "Christians". . .and neither is GOD. That's why the Command was given to us.

That's right, each and every time they see you, in actuality, they are see what JESUS CHRIST IS ALL ABOUT. . .because, "they took knowledge of" you, "that" you are "with Jesus"

If they don't see THE JESUS CHRIST that we're supposed to be immersed in and identifying with, they're just going to continue to Perish, right after making fun of us for believing THE GOD that we have brought down to our level, instead of "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, is THE LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of HIS Glory". . ."HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, which WAS, and IS, and IS to come."

I would like to jump in the mud on this one as well to add my two cents. I see a different slant that needs to be addressed, that should not be easily dismissed, because the evidence speaks for itself. Christianity is the most divided religion on the planet, and the topic of this thread has something to do with that.

I would side with Thom on this one because of the word play game that some easily dismiss for the comfort of tradition or satisfaction in their current level of knowledge. If you look at the usage of the words, they are not necessary interchangeable in every scriptural location that they are located in individual. The example he gave does not say go and make christians. I believe it would be close to heretical if people start saying that we are commanded to go and make christians or if a bible translated the text to read as you go make christians. I believe most intellegent christians would agree that the text should not read as such. It would become obvious to some that this did not fit or sit well if the word disciple was replaced with christian in the Matt 28:19 text.


The be made a disciple and be a disciple includes much more in its definition than being a christian. Yes both carry the meaning of being followers of Christ, but the word disciple has some exclusive and intrinsic meanings assigned to it that the word christian is absent of. The way one follows starts looking a little different once the word disciple is studied in extreme detailed and then applied.

This is one the plagues that hinders the body of Christ, that we are not attentive to words in their historical setting and context, and there contextual meaning within a mindset alien to most of modern day christians.

Ex. If I see two dogs walking in my yard with one being a Pitbull and the other being a Retriever, then I am not in error if I say I see two dogs in my yard. However, I would not be incorrect if I said I see a Pitbull and Retriever in my yard as well. I would be more precise and accurate. Hence, more honest and truthful in my definitions to the objects that I am witnessing.

The making of Christians is one of the reasons for the schisms, factionalism, and segregation in the Body of Christ. What ends up happening in most cases is people disciple themselves, being made disciplines of specific denominations, or people never really being made disciples, but remaining christians, hence never fulfilling their calling towards their individual commission.

Making disciples of the Body of Christ would increase unity of both our collective commission and spiritual community.

That is just my observations. I speak from a hurting heart that goes beyond selfish interest of being right or wrong, but being concerned about all of my christians brothers I see hurting from the works of deception that have been implanted in the christdom. I speak of all the christians I see following false ministers, evangelist, and tv prophets. This stuff is becoming a burden for me. God said that His people are destroyed by a lack of knowledge.

I would like to jump in the mud on this one as well to add my two cents. I see a different slant that needs to be addressed, that should not be easily dismissed, because the evidence speaks for itself. Christianity is the most divided religion on the planet, and the topic of this thread has something to do with that.

I would side with Thom on this one because of the word play game that some easily dismiss for the comfort of tradition or satisfaction in their current level of knowledge. If you look at the usage of the words, they are not necessary interchangeable in every scriptural location that they are located in individual. The example he gave does not say go and make christians. I believe it would be close to heretical if people start saying that we are commanded to go and make christians or if a bible translated the text to read as you go make christians. I believe most intellegent christians would agree that the text should not read as such. It would become obvious to some that this did not fit or sit well if the word disciple was replaced with christian in the Matt 28:19 text.


The be made a disciple and be a disciple includes much more in its definition than being a christian. Yes both carry the meaning of being followers of Christ, but the word disciple has some exclusive and intrinsic meanings assigned to it that the word christian is absent of. The way one follows starts looking a little different once the word disciple is studied in extreme detailed and then applied.

This is one the plagues that hinders the body of Christ, that we are not attentive to words in their historical setting and context, and there contextual meaning within a mindset alien to most of modern day christians.

Ex. If I see two dogs walking in my yard with one being a Pitbull and the other being a Retriever, then I am not in error if I say I see two dogs in my yard. However, I would not be incorrect if I said I see a Pitbull and Retriever in my yard as well. I would be more precise and accurate. Hence, more honest and truthful in my definitions to the objects that I am witnessing.

The making of Christians is one of the reasons for the schisms, factionalism, and segregation in the Body of Christ. What ends up happening in most cases is people disciple themselves, being made disciplines of specific denominations, or people never really being made disciples, but remaining christians, hence never fulfilling their calling towards their individual commission.

Making disciples of the Body of Christ would increase unity of both our collective commission and spiritual community.

That is just my observations. I speak from a hurting heart that goes beyond selfish interest of being right or wrong, but being concerned about all of my christians brothers I see hurting from the works of deception that have been implanted in the christdom. I speak of all the christians I see following false ministers, evangelist, and tv prophets. This stuff is becoming a burden for me. God said that His people are destroyed by a lack of knowledge.

As was stated before Jesus said the following;

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

He did not say you will be known as Christians although it is known what it means to be a Christian. disciples were called christians.

We should also not be ashamed to be call christians.

Acts 11:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 26:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1 Pet 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I always liked the term the Sanhedron used:

Act 4:13
(13) Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus.

There is no higher compliment on earth than that.

I always liked the term the Sanhedron used:

Act 4:13
(13) Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus.

There is no higher compliment on earth than that.

Amen to that!!!!

Firstfruits

The making of Christians is one of the reasons for the schisms, factionalism, and segregation in the Body of Christ. What ends up happening in most cases is people disciple themselves, being made disciplines of specific denominations, or people never really being made disciples, but remaining christians, hence never fulfilling their calling towards their individual commission.

Now I hear what you are saying and would think it's on every regenerated heart to visually see unity and growth in the lives of all believers. A beautiful thing and seen on your heart.

Sometimes I just think that there is a ditch on this side as well where definitions get in the way of people talking to and understanding each other. We all have to learn how to think on our own. We gain understanding in different ways and build our own dictionary through time. What I understand a word to mean can be different than another.

Does a word mean what the dictionary defines or what the author intends it mean?

Before I believed I used the word Christian to define people... my definition was ---> Delusional people who are lost and feel they need a crutch to get them though this meaningless life.

In forgiving words and definitions and trying to listen to the heart of another is where I myself find unity most often.

Peace,
Joe

As was stated before Jesus said the following;

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

He did not say you will be known as Christians although it is known what it means to be a Christian. disciples were called christians.

We should also not be ashamed to be call christians.

Acts 11:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 26:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1 Pet 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


I am not debating the use of the words, but I am trying to talk about the effects the words have. The carnal mind versus the spiritual.


The effect of the word christian and disciple have on an individual and/or community of believers is evident. If I called you a disciple of Jesus, how would it make you feel? How would it make you feel about yourself?

I am not debating the use of the words, but I am trying to talk about the effects the words have. The carnal mind versus the spiritual.


The effect of the word christian and disciple have on an individual and/or community of believers is evident. If I called you a disciple of Jesus, how would it make you feel? How would it make you feel about yourself?

I suppose it depends on the individual and their faith, for me whether it is christian or disciple it identifies one that follows Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

*sigh*

Christian and disciple are synonymous in the Greek. To be a Christian, by its very definition, is to be a disciple of Christ. Is this really difficult to understand? I consider myself a Christian. I guess I'm going to Hell now.

LOL

:lol:

Interesting . . .:hmm:

Does a word mean what the dictionary defines or what the author intends it mean?

I'm glad you brought that question to the floor! We often like to say (I too!!!), "Webster defines this word as meaning...", . . .and JESUS CHRIST [our LORD and GOD] is saying, ". . .but I say unto you..."; Or to give you Thom's translation of what JESUS is saying, "I made Webster. . .Webster don't define me, unless I gave him permission to do so! Or to put it another way, where's Web?. . .that's what I thought you said. . .now then, where is MY WORD?"

It is written: "Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus."

and in another place, it is written:

"Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows ME, that I AM THE LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith THE LORD. (Jeremiah 9:23-24)"

Another one we like (me too!!!) is, "in the Hebrew/Greek text, this word means..."; and that's fine and dandy as long as it lines up TOTALLY, and without contradiction, of the Sum Total of THE WORD of GOD (Scripture).

My point is this: First master JESUS CHRIST, and everything else just kinda falls into place. . .but guess what? It'll take the rest of Eternity to master JESUS CHRIST.

If we think for one moment that GOD needs our Scholarship, and/or our Smarts (1Cor. 1:19-29), to impact the world for HIMSELF, just ask Nicodemus, Saul of Tarsus, Solomon, etc., if HE really needs us. Think about it, if GOD could use a Talking Jackass to save "Balaam" (Numbers 22), who the heck do I think I am?


Before I believed I used the word Christian to define people... my definition was ---> Delusional people who are lost and feel they need a crutch to get them though this meaningless life.
In forgiving words and definitions and trying to listen to the heart of another is where I myself find unity most often.
Peace,
JoeA BEAUTIFUL TESTIMONY BROTHER Joe!!!

I would side with Thom on this one because of the word play game that some easily dismiss for the comfort of tradition or satisfaction in their current level of knowledge. If you look at the usage of the words, they are not necessary interchangeable in every scriptural location that they are located in individual. The example he gave does not say go and make christians. I believe it would be close to heretical if people start saying that we are commanded to go and make christians or if a bible translated the text to read as you go make christians. I believe most intellegent christians would agree that the text should not read as such. It would become obvious to some that this did not fit or sit well if the word disciple was replaced with christian in the Matt 28:19 text.It wouldn't be heretical to put "Christian" instead of "disciple." It would just be a weird interpretation. ;)


Again, "Christian" in the Greek means "follower/disciple of Christ." It's really this way:

Are you a Texan or an American? Texan would be the equivalent to "Christian" - it defines a term even further. "Disciple" was a broad term back then, so being called a "Christian" meant you were a "follower of Christ." So the semantics game can really be useless.

At the same time, I do understand your point in a later post about connotations of words verses definitions. The modern connotation of Christian can bring about a multitude of meanings. If we call ourselves a "disciple of Christ" (which is what "Christian" means) it has a greater impact in our culture. This is quite ironic as this is the reverse of what happened in the first century.

At the same time, in some contexts being called a Christian is an honor. I had a debate with an atheist where, in his attempt to publicly mock me, called me a "Christian philosopher." I took great pride in that because the term singled me out as someone who believes in Christ.

So if you're talking about connotation and not definition, then it would depend on the setting and culture. In a culture where Britney Spears or Kanye West can be called "Christians," I can see the importance of calling ourselves "disciples of Christ."

But to say, "The Bible says DISCIPLE and not CHRISTIAN!" is over the top and really misses the point of what Scripture is saying. That's a hyper literal reading - no where in the Bible should we EVER apply a hyper literal reading.

At the same time, in some contexts being called a Christian is an honor. I had a debate with an atheist where, in his attempt to publicly mock me, called me a "Christian philosopher." I took great pride in that because the term singled me out as someone who believes in Christ.

Wow! That 'at (atheist)' must have had it kinda backwards, huh?





http://bibleforums.org/customavatars/avatar16496_4.gif (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=16496)
apothanein kerdos (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=16496) http://bibleforums.org/images/statusicon/user_online.gif Philosophia Christi
Are you a Christian?: Yes, I am a Christian.http://bibleforums.org/../stars/1gs.gifhttp://bibleforums.org/../stars/1gs.gifhttp://bibleforums.org/../stars/1gs.gif
You don't even call yourself a "Christian", without something in front of it to define it to your satisfaction, so what did you expect?

Never mind, that's just one of the "stupid questions" that I sometimes ask.

Wow! That 'at (atheist)' must have had it kinda backwards, huh?


You don't even call yourself a "Christian", without something in front of it to define it to your satisfaction, so what did you expect?

Never mind, that's just one of the "stupid questions" that I sometimes ask.


Well...

Considering philosophia Christi means "Philosophy of Christ" in Latin and not "Christian philosopher"...

So if you're going to try to trap me next time, you might want to make sure you're going the right route.

But hey, I'll go with your last sentence. ;)

Well...

Considering philosophia Christi means "Philosophy of Christ" in Latin and not "Christian philosopher"...

So if you're going to try to trap me next time, you might want to make sure you're going the right route.

But hey, I'll go with your last sentence. ;)

No, you "trap"[ped] yourself. . .unless you're implying, the 'at' wrote your profile for you. you posted it as "Philosophia Christi", instead of "Philosophy of Christ" and/or, even, "Christian philosopher", huh?

And you seem to "go" with anything that you believe will make you, no matter whichever side of your mouth your talking out of at any given point in time, look good:

"In a culture where Britney Spears or Kanye West can be called 'Christians,' I can see the importance of calling ourselves 'disciples of Christ'."

I had considered that, when I started this Thread. Was it not you that stated, "words matter". . .or at least agreed with that phrase anyway?

It wouldn't be heretical to put "Christian" instead of "disciple." It would just be a weird interpretation. ;)


Again, "Christian" in the Greek means "follower/disciple of Christ." It's really this way:

Are you a Texan or an American? Texan would be the equivalent to "Christian" - it defines a term even further. "Disciple" was a broad term back then, so being called a "Christian" meant you were a "follower of Christ." So the semantics game can really be useless.

At the same time, I do understand your point in a later post about connotations of words verses definitions. The modern connotation of Christian can bring about a multitude of meanings. If we call ourselves a "disciple of Christ" (which is what "Christian" means) it has a greater impact in our culture. This is quite ironic as this is the reverse of what happened in the first century.

At the same time, in some contexts being called a Christian is an honor. I had a debate with an atheist where, in his attempt to publicly mock me, called me a "Christian philosopher." I took great pride in that because the term singled me out as someone who believes in Christ.

So if you're talking about connotation and not definition, then it would depend on the setting and culture. In a culture where Britney Spears or Kanye West can be called "Christians," I can see the importance of calling ourselves "disciples of Christ."

But to say, "The Bible says DISCIPLE and not CHRISTIAN!" is over the top and really misses the point of what Scripture is saying. That's a hyper literal reading - no where in the Bible should we EVER apply a hyper literal reading.


I see it as one in the same. Definition of words are attached to connotations by default. Whenever we say something, a connotations is implied. Hence, why one word can have various connotations depending on its setting.

Today's connotations of what a Christian or disciple is, is some what different than the first century definitions. The original disciples lived in the same manner of connotations as any other Jewish disciple of their day. This connotations is not mirrored today by Christians. The implied mentoring system that was essential for that day is missing today, and moreover not even seen as essential in modern times. There is so much more, but who cares.

I simply see a difference in definition and connotations in comparison to their times and ours. This is event to me because my studies of historical Jewish norms doing Jesus's earthly times.

I see your point immensely. But my desperation upon me, cannot casually give the devil a pass on this one. It is a big issue to me because the affects upon the body of Christ today is readily evident to me.

Thanks for the insight.

No, you "trap"[ped] yourself. . .unless you're implying, the 'at' wrote your profile for you. you posted it as "Philosophia Christi", instead of "Philosophy of Christ" and/or, even, "Christian philosopher", huh?

Not sure I'm following. The Greek (I misspoke earlier, it's not Latin, it's Greek) construct is philosophia christi, which translates into "Philosophy of Christ," not "Christian philosopher" (in Greek this would simply be christianos philosophos).

So I'm not qualifiying what it means to be a Christian - the title philosophia christi simply means, "The Philosophy of Christ."

I posted it as Philosophia Christi because it's Greek - I could have posted it Christi Philosophia and it would still translate as "Philosophy of Christ." Word order doesn't matter in Greek like it does in English.

I guess I'm not getting what you're trying to say.



And you seem to "go" with anything that you believe will make you, no matter whichever side of your mouth your talking out of at any given point in time, look good:

"In a culture where Britney Spears or Kanye West can be called 'Christians,' I can see the importance of calling ourselves 'disciples of Christ'."

I had considered that, when I started this Thread. Was it not you that stated, "words matter". . .or at least agreed with that phrase anyway?

Again, I'm not seeing your contention. I know you're trying to get at me personally and make me look like some Sophist, but you're not doing a very good job of it.

I said that connotation of a word does matter, so it might be necessary at times to use a different word due to the connotation. The definition, however, is what I'm looking to. Likewise, I'm saying we're at liberty to decide what words to use and not to use depending on connotation - I'm not setting up some legalistic standard.

Can you deal with the fact that in the Greek "Christian" means "disciple of Christ," thus negating the legalistic standard you put forth?

Mani,



I see it as one in the same. Definition of words are attached to connotations by default. Whenever we say something, a connotations is implied. Hence, why one word can have various connotations depending on its setting.

The problem with this is that it can lead to some erroneous things. For instance, the term "God the Father" can have HORRIBLE connotations for someone who was beaten or molested by a father. This doesn't justify dropping the term, merely getting the person to see that the connotation they attatch to the word is different from both (1) reality and (2) the definition of the word (which aligns with reality).

Otherwise we end up in some nominalistic stage where our connotations define the definition - thus, our perceptions define reality. It goes much deeper, but linguistic philosophy has many ramifications in theology.


Today's connotations of what a Christian or disciple is, is some what different than the first century definitions. The original disciples lived in the same manner of connotations as any other Jewish disciple of their day. This connotations is not mirrored today by Christians. The implied mentoring system that was essential for that day is missing today, and moreover not even seen as essential in modern times. There is so much more, but who cares.

I simply see a difference in definition and connotations in comparison to their times and ours. This is event to me because my studies of historical Jewish norms doing Jesus's earthly times.

I understand what you're saying and I do think that we need to be sensitive to such things. But it is also our duty to show people that sometimes the connotations they attach to a word aren't always justified. Sometimes it's a battle worth fighting, other times it's not.

For instance, "religion." It has a negative connotation, but of course, it doesn't change the fact that Christianity IS a religion by definition, but not by connotation. So we have Christians saying "Christianity isn't a religion" and others saying, "Yes it is." Generally, one group looks to the connotation and the other looks to the definition. It is important to look at both and then seek to bring our views in alignment with the definition and the reality of the word rather than the negative or positive connotation of the word.


I see your point immensely. But my desperation upon me, cannot casually give the devil a pass on this one. It is a big issue to me because the affects upon the body of Christ today is readily evident to me.

Thanks for the insight.

I understand. I know that Houston isn't the easiest place to have a church ("bible belt"...not in H-Town). I know that there might be a few cultural Christians in that area, so it's better to maybe address it as "Disciples of Christ" or "True Christians." At the same time, I think we need to realize that such cultural connotations are not universal. In some cultures referring to ourselves as Christians is actually a good thing as Christianity is properly understood. So there's quite a bit of liberty in this. Certainly more than what is suggested in the OP.

I understand. I know that Houston isn't the easiest place to have a church ("bible belt"...not in H-Town). I know that there might be a few cultural Christians in that area, so it's better to maybe address it as "Disciples of Christ" or "True Christians." At the same time, I think we need to realize that such cultural connotations are not universal. In some cultures referring to ourselves as Christians is actually a good thing as Christianity is properly understood. So there's quite a bit of liberty in this. Certainly more than what is suggested in the OP.

Actually living in Houston is a mixed blessing. It has the largest population of homosexuals and witches, but the a very large population of christians. It is sort of a city that is extremely divided along theses lines. However, the homosexual and witch populations are quiet unlike San Franscico.

I joined the army after high school, then God called me back to Houston. I did not know why until years later. Now I know. Houston is also on the forefront of something knew. Check out the number of large congregations that are observing Passover this year. It is no longer an odd thing consider strictly Jewish, but a norm now. I was getting dragged through the mud years ago, now people are evangelizing to me about the festivals to include some of the ones who talked about my congregation of about two hundred.

Houston also has a large population of immigrants. These immigrants are very diverse, but they do not influence the religious environment. Most are catholic. However, there is a large and growing hispanic pentecostal movement taking place.

Just a few things about H-Town.