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herald
Apr 7th 2009, 12:33 PM
"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." Ex 3:14.

"After these things the Word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision saying, Fear not, Abram: I AM thy shield and thy exceeding great reward." Gen 15:1.

To Jacob: "And, behold, I AM with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of." Gen 28:15.

To Jacob: "And God said unto him, I AM God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; and nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins." Gen 35:11.

"Moreoever He said, I AM the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." Ex 3:6.

"Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I AM the Lord, and I will bring you out from the burdens of the Egyptians (Egypt: a type of the world), and I wll rid you of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments." Ex 6:6.

"...thou mayest know that, I AM the Lord in the midst of the earth." Ex 8:22.

"And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and My signs which I have done among them; that ye may know that I AM the Lord." Ex 10:2.

"And said, if thou wilt diligently hearken to the Voice (His Word) of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in His sight, and wilt give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I AM the Lord that healeth thee." Ex 15:26.

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them (graven images), nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God AM a jealous God, visiting the iniquity (lawlessness) of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me and keep My commandments." Ex 20:5,6.

"For I AM the Lord thy God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I AM holy..." Lev 11:44.

"Ye shall do My judgments, and keep Mine ordinances, to walk therein: I AM the Lord your God. Ye shall therefore keep My judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I AM the Lord." Lev 18:4,5.

"...For I AM gracious." Ex 22:27.

"Ye shall fear every man his mother and his father, and keep My Sabbaths: I AM the Lord your God." Lev 19:3.

"And ye shall not swear by My name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of the Lord thy God: I AM the Lord." Lev 19:12.

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I AM the Lord." Lev 19:18.

"Therefore shall ye keep My commandments: I AM the Lord." Lev 22:31.

"And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My Covenant with them: for I AM the Lord their God." Lev 26:44.

"While He yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud which said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I AM well pleased: hear ye Him." Matt 17:5.

"He trusted in God: let Him deliver Him now, if He will have Him: for He said, I AM the Son of God." Matt 27:43.

Jesus said, "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I AM with you always, even unto the end of the world." Amen. Matt 28:20.

Jesus said, "I AM that bread of life. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof and not die. I AM the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." John 6:48-51.

"Then spake Jesus again unto them I AM the light of the world: he that followeth Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." John 8:12.

"Jesus said unto them, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM." John 8:58.

"Then said Jesus unto them again, I AM the door of the sheep." John 10:7.

"I AM the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth His life for the sheep." John 10:11.

"I AM the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." John 11:25.

"Jesus saith unto him, I AM the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." John 14:6.

"I AM the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman." John 15:1.

The Triune God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit - One in essence, three in person. Gen 1:26; 3:22;Isa 9:6; Lu 1:47;John 1:1; Acts 5:3,4.

Teke
Apr 7th 2009, 01:05 PM
The name "I AM" the Existing One is the name for the Essence of God, which is one an undivided. This Essence is like a boundless sea, containing all things yet not contained by anything. The Son is eternally begotten from the Essence of the Father. When Jesus said He was the Existing One, the Jews who were listening took up stones to stone Him, for they knew the passage in Exodus 3:14 (John 8:57-59),

Emanate
Apr 7th 2009, 02:16 PM
It would appear that many others claimed to be God.

Genesis 18:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=18&verse=12&version=9&context=verse)
Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I AM waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

Genesis 23:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=23&verse=4&version=9&context=verse)
I AM a stranger and a sojourner with you: give me a possession of a buryingplace with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.

Genesis 24:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=24&verse=24&version=9&context=verse)
And she said unto him, I AM the daughter of Bethuel the son of Milcah, which she bare unto Nahor.

Genesis 24:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=24&verse=34&version=9&context=verse)
And he said, I AM Abraham's servant.

Genesis 27:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=27&verse=24&version=9&context=verse)
And he said, Art thou my very son Esau? And he said, I AM.

Genesis 41:44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=41&verse=44&version=9&context=verse)
And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I AM Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

Ruth 3:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=8&chapter=3&verse=12&version=9&context=verse)
And now it is true that I AM thy near kinsman: howbeit there is a kinsman nearer than I.

so on and so forth.

herald
Apr 7th 2009, 07:55 PM
In Acts 5:3,4, Peter said, "Ananias, why hath Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Ghost...thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

To say, that others say, "I am," doesn't take away from the Great I AM - the Eternal One - One in essence, three in person.

markedward
Apr 7th 2009, 08:16 PM
So... what exactly is the topic of discussion here? That God is God...?

Ethnikos
Apr 7th 2009, 08:44 PM
The name "I AM" the Existing One is the name for the Essence of God, which is one an undivided. This Essence is like a boundless sea, containing all things yet not contained by anything. The Son is eternally begotten from the Essence of the Father. When Jesus said He was the Existing One, the Jews who were listening took up stones to stone Him, for they knew the passage in Exodus 3:14 (John 8:57-59),
I am not sure you can have it both ways. Either Jesus was saying that before Abraham was, Jesus was; or if you take the words, "I Am" as God, he was saying, "Before Abraham was, God."
The Gospel of John says the Word was with God and was God. The word became flesh and walked among us as the person called Jesus. I think that by this point in his life, Jesus was fully aware of who he was and most likely had a conscious connection to his previous existence. Jesus was not saying that before Abraham came into existence, he came into existence, but that Jesus had pretty much always existed and we know that he did, as the Word.
I have to think that any further clarification on the status of the Godhead and its nature and who was what and why, can only be based on speculation. The Bible was not written to satisfy our curiosity or feeling that we have to nail God down to our own specific requirements.
Paul talks about the Father and the Son but not in a way of making a big distinction between them. Paul recognizes that Jesus was a person born of a woman and who had a real life as a real human. Paul goes on to say that we do not have an intermediary between Christ and God the Father in order to put the new covenant into effect. Paul says that in the future, there will be a unity of God as One. That includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, once all that has to occur in the end of history has proceeded and we are all gathered together in heaven.

herald
Apr 7th 2009, 09:06 PM
On many websites they are happy to get these Scriptures. 2 Tim 3:16 in the Greek reads, "Every Scripture is God breathed..."

We need to spend more time in the Scripture, because it is life to us.

Our Creator spoke the worlds into existence: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Heb 1:3.

"Who (Jesus) being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding ALL THINGS by the Word of His power..." Heb 1:3.

The first challenge to the Word of God was in the garden of Eden, when Satan queried, "Hath God said...?" Gen 3:1.

We are born again by His Word: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God which liveth and abideth forever." 1 Pet 1:23;Ja 1:18; John 15:3;Eph 5:25,26.

Obeying His Word keeps us from sin: "Thy Word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.:: Ps 119:11.

His Word Guides Us: "Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Ps 119:105,67,103.

His Word is bread to our spirit: Jesus said, "It is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Mt 4:4.

"...I have esteemed the Words of His mouth more than my necessary food." Job 23:12.

"Thy Words were found and I did eat them; and Thy Word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of my heart..." Jer 15:16.

Faith comes by the Word: "So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Rom 10:17.

The Roman Centurion...said...but, speak the Word, only, and my servant shall be healed." Mt 8:8.
Jesus responded, "Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." Mt 8:10.

Those who obey God's Word are more blessed than Mary: "...a certain woman...said unto Him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee and the paps which thou hast sucked. But He (Jesus) said, Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the Word of God and keep it." Lu 11:27,28.

Jesus quoted the Word in spiritual warfare with Satan: "It is written..." Mt 4:4,7,10.

"And take the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God." Eph 6:17.

We are to search the Scriptures to verify what we are taught: "The Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that the received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11.

The Disciples spoke the Word of God: "...ye received the Word of God, which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the Word of God..." 1 Thess 2:13.

Men are Martyred for the Word of God: "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God..." Rev 6:9.

My Dutch Reformed grandparents went to China as missionaries. The Communists went to every house in their village, and killed all foreigners- every house except theirs. My grandfather was arrested by Mao Tse Tung and put on trial, with a gun held to his head. He was ordered to renounce his faith. Instead, he preached the gospel to thousands of Communist Chinese. They threw him in a dungeon. After some time, he prayed, "Lord take me home, or set me free." That day "someone" came and opened the door. He thought he was going to be executed. Instead, he led him to the Hong Kong Harbour.

Meanwhile, my grandmother fled with the three children. My father, a very cerebral Pathologist told me, that, bandits would ride up, slit your clothes and kill you. Out of nowhere, a bugle sounded and scared them off.

My grandfather found his family and went to Singapore. My grandfather was ready to be martyred for the Word of God.

And most significant of all - JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD. John 1; 1 John 1:1;1 John 5:7.

"And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and HIS NAME IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD." Rev 19:13.

"But be ye DOERS of the Word, and not hearers, only, DECEIVING yourselves." Ja 1:22.

Teke
Apr 7th 2009, 09:11 PM
I am not sure you can have it both ways. Either Jesus was saying that before Abraham was, Jesus was; or if you take the words, "I Am" as God, he was saying, "Before Abraham was, God."
The Gospel of John says the Word was with God and was God. The word became flesh and walked among us as the person called Jesus. I think that by this point in his life, Jesus was fully aware of who he was and most likely had a conscious connection to his previous existence. Jesus was not saying that before Abraham came into existence, he came into existence, but that Jesus had pretty much always existed and we know that he did, as the Word.
I have to think that any further clarification on the status of the Godhead and its nature and who was what and why, can only be based on speculation. The Bible was not written to satisfy our curiosity or feeling that we have to nail God down to our own specific requirements.
Paul talks about the Father and the Son but not in a way of making a big distinction between them. Paul recognizes that Jesus was a person born of a woman and who had a real life as a real human. Paul goes on to say that we do not have an intermediary between Christ and God the Father in order to put the new covenant into effect. Paul says that in the future, there will be a unity of God as One. That includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, once all that has to occur in the end of history has proceeded and we are all gathered together in heaven.

:confused I am not understanding your post.

What do you mean by, "both ways"?

And what do you mean by, "Paul says that in the future, there will be a unity of God as One."?
What scripture or doctrine are you referring to?

herald
Apr 7th 2009, 09:40 PM
Jesus was indeed, saying, that, before Abraham was, He was...Either Jesus is eternal God, or, He isn't.

Jesus is called, "Creator," in John 1:3.
Jesus is called, "Emmanuel" in Mt 1:23, which means, "God with us."
Jesus is called, "God," in Lu 1:47;John 1:1; Jude 25.
Jesus is called, "the image of the invisible God" in Col 1:15
Jesus is called, "Mighty God" in Isa 9:6.
Jesus is called, "Everlasting Father" in Isa 9:6.
Jesus is called, "The Son of God" in Mt 16:16;17:5;Lu 1:35;John 10:36.
Jesus is called, "Lord of Lords" in 1 Tim 6:15;Rev 19:16.
Jesus is called, "Almighty" in Rev 1:8

If you do not believe, that, Jesus is eternal God, you are, still, in your sin. Only a pure and holy God could die for our sin.

Emanate
Apr 7th 2009, 09:43 PM
If you do not believe, that, Jesus is eternal God, you are, still, in your sin. Only a pure and holy God could die for our sin.


This reminds me of the saying "preaching to the choir"

herald
Apr 7th 2009, 09:44 PM
My point is, that, Jesus is eternal God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit. If he is saying, that, Jesus did not exist before Abraham, he is saying, that, Jesus is not eternal God.

Ethnikos
Apr 7th 2009, 10:36 PM
My point is, that, Jesus is eternal God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit. If he is saying, that, Jesus did not exist before Abraham, he is saying, that, Jesus is not eternal God.
I am not saying anything like that. I was talking about how you derive meaning from language. How do you make sense out of various words strung together? If you pick two words out of the sentence and define them as a Proper Noun, you can not then go ahead and take one or two or both and then use them in the ordinary sense of the meanings of the words. Let me repeat my statement in a way that maybe you can understand. Was Jesus saying, "Before Abraham, I was around and had existence."? Or was he saying, "Before Abraham was, God."? People seem to have no problem with going ahead and using both understandings while ignoring how it was actually written in the Greek and how it should be understood. Even in the English, it should be obvious there is a problem by how people derive whatever meaning they want out of it without regards to any kind of logic. Don't worry about it too much, I was just making a point. I got this attitude from reading a lot of discussions on the trinity. Without taking any particular side at the moment, I am just pointing out how this might sound to someone who has not been thoroughly indoctrinated into the belief of whoever is making the argument, either way.

herald
Apr 7th 2009, 10:51 PM
In the Greek it reads, Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM. Then they took up stones that they might throw them on Him. But Jesus was hidden, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." John 8:58-59.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 7th 2009, 10:54 PM
I am not saying anything like that. I was talking about how you derive meaning from language. How do you make sense out of various words strung together? If you pick two words out of the sentence and define them as a Proper Noun, you can not then go ahead and take one or two or both and then use them in the ordinary sense of the meanings of the words. Let me repeat my statement in a way that maybe you can understand. Was Jesus saying, "Before Abraham, I was around and had existence."? Or was he saying, "Before Abraham was, God."? People seem to have no problem with going ahead and using both understandings while ignoring how it was actually written in the Greek and how it should be understood. Even in the English, it should be obvious there is a problem by how people derive whatever meaning they want out of it without regards to any kind of logic. Don't worry about it too much, I was just making a point. I got this attitude from reading a lot of discussions on the trinity. Without taking any particular side at the moment, I am just pointing out how this might sound to someone who has not been thoroughly indoctrinated into the belief of whoever is making the argument, either way.

Grammatically, Jesus is saying that He is both eternal and God. That's the point of the structuring. It doesn't change in the Greek (probably because it was originally said in Hebrew) - no matter what, Jesus is making the point that He is God because He is eternal.

herald
Apr 7th 2009, 11:06 PM
Amen!!!!!:pray:

Walstib
Apr 7th 2009, 11:27 PM
Hi herald,

Got some good stuff there. I don't know as all the "I am" references in the first post are necessarily in context of your point, but I agree with your conclusion for sure. Nice to be reminded of that verse from Acts...5:3-4

Just thought I would remind you that you will not find an argument against your point here as teaching against the trinity is not allowed. If you are looking for a debate on that you won't find it here.

Your own grandparents?

Peace,
Joe

Ethnikos
Apr 7th 2009, 11:54 PM
And what do you mean by, "Paul says that in the future, there will be a unity of God as One."?
What scripture or doctrine are you referring to?

Colossions 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
1 Corinthians 15:
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
These are a few verses concerning this issue. I would have to spend a couple hours to gather them all together. There is not one verse that says everything I stated earlier. This is not a concept I made up but from an old time mainstream protestant commentary.

herald
Apr 7th 2009, 11:58 PM
The, only food we need is the Word of God, as long as we are able to be on the web. Things are wrapping up.

There is an outpouring of God's Spirit in China, Cuba, India, South America...

There are over 180 Messianic churches in Israel. They are those who have found Jesus as their Messiah. Many of them have said, that, the veil has been lifted.

Muslims by the hundreds are having dreams and visions of Jesus and are coming to Him.

In Nigeria, there are Christian meetings two million strong.

Have you heard of St. Malachy's prophecy, posted on the web by the Catholic Church? He was an Irish Catholic Bishop who visited Rome in 1139. He had a vision of all the popes until the time of the end. He gave details about different ones. He said the last pope would "reign amidst many tribulations...and then the Dreadful Judge would come and destroy the city." Jesus is coming back as a judge.

If this was a vision from God, there remains one more pope. When The Antichrist reigns, he may close these websites.

Jesus said, that, He is coming after the Tribulation. Matt 24. Although, some say, it will last seven years, we don't really know how long it will last.

Also, in 2 Pet 3:10, it reads, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Yes, my own grandparents: Dr. Henry and Dorothy Poppen.

Teke
Apr 8th 2009, 02:46 PM
Colossions 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
1 Corinthians 15:
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
These are a few verses concerning this issue. I would have to spend a couple hours to gather them all together. There is not one verse that says everything I stated earlier. This is not a concept I made up but from an old time mainstream protestant commentary.

Then you were pointing out the confusion brought about in English translations? If so, I agree. Like the Galatians verse you posted, 3:20 (among others), the wording can be quite confusing to someone who doesn't understand Trinity theology.

This poster, Herald, has brought a very valid point to light in bringing this subject up. In the Hebrew of the Massoretic text used by many westerners, the OT meaning is, I will be who I will be (Hebrew "ahye asher ahye), this is not meant in the present tense ie. to be.
The Greek "ego eimi" is more in line with the Tanachs' Hebrew "ani hu" meaning "I Am He" (see Isaiah 43:10 in the Sept.), which is more likely what is meant in John's gospel, as John presents Him as the Witness Isaiah speaks of, in relation to our witness of Him.

The devil has waited patiently for the church to be brought to such confusion as it is in presently. It has been prophesied in the eastern church that there will be an eighth ecumenical council between the eastern and western church (this is not far from coming about), but it will be a false council in which anti christ will participate, and many will fall because of it. Afterward there will be a true council. This subject of the Trinity will be central to any such ecumenical council, as it has always been in the first seven councils.

There has already been 'ecumenical' dialog among Reformed and Orthodox Christians on this subject of the Trinity. Here (http://warc.ch/dt/erl1/13.html) you can read of the agreement of 1992 (also see the 1994 dialogue).
The eastern church will defend such ecumenical agreement at that eighth council when it comes about. But as I've said, do not get to excited about the first eighth council as it may very well be a false, or as we EO say, a 'robber council'. Because as I've said, it will not be a true council, but one to rob the church of the faithful, putting their faith in a false unity that will lead them further from the truth rather than closer to it.

herald
Apr 8th 2009, 05:01 PM
The church has been brought to confusion, because many have forsaken the Word of God.

The Apostle Paul wrote, ""Now this I say, that everyone of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas (Peter); and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" 1 Cor 1:12,13. (The Lord never wanted His people to be divided into sects.)

In Revelation 17, the Lord calls the apostate Catholic/Protestant religious system, "The Mother of harlots." Why? Because she has replaced much of the Word of God for her tradition. Just as Judas arose from within the disciples, so The Antichrist ("false Christ") will arise from within the church.

"And I heard another voice from heaven saying, COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, that be not partakers of her sins ("For sin is the transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4), and that ye receive not of HER PLAGUES. (Interesting)

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." (lawlessness) Rev 18:4,5.

I heard of a seminary, where everyone was sleeping together. The churches are being rocked by homosexuality, and are being split.

These forums provide us with the opportunity to come together as the Bride of Christ.

Ethnikos
Apr 8th 2009, 06:13 PM
The devil has waited patiently for the church to be brought to such confusion as it is in presently. It has been prophesied in the eastern church that there will be an eighth ecumenical council between the eastern and western church (this is not far from coming about), but it will be a false council in which anti christ will participate, and many will fall because of it. Afterward there will be a true council. This subject of the Trinity will be central to any such ecumenical council, as it has always been in the first seven councils.
Since you know about this prophecy, you can be sure the Vatican is well aware of it. Do you think they made preparations for it ahead of time to give themselves an advantage? Here is a little background on this subject that most people do not realize. The stated purpose for the crusades was to free the holy shrines in Palestine from the evil Muslims. The real purpose was to set up a base of operations in the general area in order to launch attacks against the Easter Church that was headquartered in Baghdad. Now, does this ring a bell? Terick Aziz who was the foreign relations man for Saddam Hussein was a Christian. (By the way he got off with a few years prison term.) So, before the good war of the Gulf, there was still a large base of Christians there. Were they Roman Catholic? No, Eastern Orthodox. Who is the greatest enemy of the Vatican? Not the Muslims, it is the Eastern Church who until now has not recognized the authority of the Pope.
As far as the "trinity" thing goes, my main point is that people read into things in the Bible what they want them to say, based on what they already believe. That's fine as far as I am concerned, I am not going to worry about what you think about it. The problem comes when you have a "religious" body with a long history of foisting erroneous doctrines on the people, set as their ultimate goal, the defining of God and all his aspects, so that my beliefs need to come into conformity with theirs. You have to imagine that whatever they do is going to benefit themselves and give more power to the anti-christ. They are not doing this to uplift Christ. It may seem so, but if they do, it is only to lift him out of his seat as the Ruler of the Earth, in order to put their own guy more firmly into it. That is why he is the anti-christ, because he takes the rightful place of Christ.

herald
Apr 8th 2009, 06:22 PM
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace." Isa 9:6.

"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Ghost...thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." Acts 5:3,4.

The Scripture verifies the Trinity...and my allegiance is to the Word of God, alone.

herald
Apr 8th 2009, 06:31 PM
As far as "The Son of Perdition," and "The Antichrist," the pre and post Reformers pointed to the office of the Papacy, as the "False Christ." Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, John Wyclif, William Tyndale, King James, John Knox, Philipp Melanchthon and Huldreich Zwingli and many others. Many of them were roasted at the stake, because of their comments.

Rev 13:11 speaks of the Apostate Protestant America.

1. Grows up in a sparsely populated place.
2. Two horns: religious and civil liberty (no Pope, no King)
3. "like a Lamb:" a young Christian nation.
4. "But speaks as a Dragon:" "The greatest Superpower the world has ever known."

President Reagan worked with the Pope to bring down Communism in eastern Europe.

Ethnikos
Apr 8th 2009, 08:43 PM
As far as "The Son of Perdition," and "The Antichrist," the pre and post Reformers pointed to the office of the Papacy, as the "False Christ." Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, John Wyclif, William Tyndale, King James, John Knox, Philipp Melanchthon and Huldreich Zwingli and many others. Many of them were roasted at the stake, because of their comments.

Rev 13:11 speaks of the Apostate Protestant America.

1. Grows up in a sparsely populated place.
2. Two horns: religious and civil liberty (no Pope, no King)
3. "like a Lamb:" a young Christian nation.
4. "But speaks as a Dragon:" "The greatest Superpower the world has ever known."

President Reagan worked with the Pope to bring down Communism in eastern Europe.Have you ever listened to Reagan's adopted son Michael? He was actually originally adopted by his former wife, Jane Wyatt. She was Catholic and Ronald was Protestant. Instead of binging the son to church, he would leave him home on Sundays. Kind of strange, I think.
Who brought about the revolution and communism into Russia, in the first place? That was the work of agents working for the Jesuits to break the back of the Russian Orthodox Church. Once they had destroyed their power sufficiently, it was time to unify Europe and bring the Russians into the fold of the Roman Catholics in one big European Union with a flag that the designer admits is the symbol of the Virgin Mary. Reagan stood in for the front man in the reunification but it was behind the scenes work, again, to fulfill their plans for world domination.
Again, to address this trinity issue that you seem to be trying to make a point about, the Bible does not go out of its way to draw distinctions in the Godhead. If anything, there is an apparent attempt at drawing a unification to it. Now, I do not go along with the unity theory that says God was such and such and then became such and such and so on. God has always been God and one form of God did not go away in order for another form of God to take the dominant role. More important than drawing distinctions between various names related to God, we need to consider the unifying factors. At some point that is beyond this present life in this world, what we need to know about all of this will be made clear. My personal belief is that the human attempt to make hard and fast definitions and to make a dogma from it and to enforce the subscription to this dogma on all people is not the work of God and should not be our goal or aim. The word "trinity" is not in the Bible and it is not up to us to make that definition. I do not mean that you should not think of God as some kind of trinity, which is evident in the Bible that there is, but to realize that the term is useful only in discussing the three persons who seem to be the obvious manifestations of God at work in the world to bring about our salvation. When the Bible talks about God, as in the proper sense of the One True God, in says it in a way that makes it clear there is only one God. Now all of this must seem rather nebulous and goes against our nature of wanting to make it all in concrete terms. Well, go ahead, and search for yourself what it all means and if you think it brings you closer to God then it may not be a useless mental exercise. I have to admit I have spent a lot of mental energy in the pursuit. I feel that what your ultimate conclusion should be is that, try as we might, it is something just beyond our grasp of comprehension. If we are patient and follow what God makes clear to us and are faithful to the end, we will have all eternity to learn about God and in a rather direct way. As of right now, despite the work of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, we are yet sinful and can not understand the spiritual nature of things in general and least of all the overpowering glory of God who dwells in impenetrable brightness. We have Jesus who it is claimed and then proven to be God manifest and we are given his name to believe in and to be saved by. Do we clearly see Jesus? We first have to fix our gaze on him and really understand him, then we see God. It does no good to jump ahead beyond our personal point of spiritual development and have a fix on God, who no man has seen.
I have gone around and around through the years on what I think the trinity means and something I said a year ago I might not agree on today. So, how can I imagine I can tell you what is the certain truth? That being said, I am not going to be persuaded by some gathering of Bishops in Purple at some great convocation by order of the Pope, or anyone else. Believe in the name of Jesus and be assured that he has the very power of the Almighty God to hold you and defend you from the power of the beast, and then to destroy the beast personally, and you will be at the important gathering which is the marriage supper of the Lamb. Then you will know all things and we will see God for what He is and Who He is. I have a feeling He will look a lot like Jesus.

herald
Apr 8th 2009, 09:12 PM
I have listened to Michael's testimony. He was molested by a relative, but, ultimately came to Christ. Also, President Reagan, when he was governor of California, was led to Christ.

The Scripture, clearly teaches, that, there are three - One in essence, three in person. There is no sin in the Godhead, so, there is no separation. Yes, we do not understand the Godhead, because we, still, have to deal with sin, until, we get our immortal bodies and go to heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 15:53.

Elohiym is plural. "And God said, let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..." Gen 1:26.

"And the Lord said, Behold the man is become as one of US to know good and evil..." Gen 3:22.

The Father is referred to as "God," the Son, and, also, the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said, " I and My Father are One." John 10:30.

Jesus could not forgive sin, if He was not God. Jesus said, "But ye know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins..." Matt 9:6.
"...who can forgive sins but God only?" Mk 2:7.

The Holy Spirit struck Ananias and Sapphira dead, for lying to Him. Acts 5:5. And Peter said, that, they had lied unto God. Acts 5:4.

Ethnikos
Apr 8th 2009, 09:30 PM
Jesus could not forgive sin, if He was not God. Jesus said, "But ye know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins..." Matt 9:6.
"...who can forgive sins but God only?" Mk 2:7.
These were the religious authorities of his day. Why did Jesus not fill them in on the great mysteries of God then? He said you have not seen Him because you have not seen me. Do we think the religious authorities of our day have any better insight? No, because they deny Christ of all his power and authority in order to grasp at some of it to gain power and authority for themselves. They have Jesus in front of them and fully revealed, but close their eyes to his true nature, to block out the truth from shining a light onto their own deeds. King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Who claims that for themselves on this earth? The anti-christ. Should we heed their proclamations about the nature of God, when they make a new council and then publish their conclusions? I hope not. Individuality allows for the true Gospel. Forced uniformity squashes the work of the Holy Spirit that works on people in a one on one way. We should not set aside the gathering together of believers but the purpose should be to support the truth in some and to point out the errors in others. This happens at a congregational level and not from pronouncements from on high of a self appointed authority who's claims for itself nullifies the real ultimate authority.

herald
Apr 8th 2009, 09:33 PM
2 Tim 3:16 in the Greek reads, "Every Scripture is God breathed..." That is where I put my trust, and allow the Holy Spirit to give me insight.

When what is taught in my church doesn't line up with Scripture, I speak up...some like it, others don't, because they prefer tradition.

"For the Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Heb 4:12.

"And take the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God." Eph 6:17.

Jesus quoted Scripture in spiritual warfare with Satan: "It is written..." Mt 4:4,7,10.

Emanate
Apr 8th 2009, 10:59 PM
The Scripture verifies the Trinity...and my allegiance is to the Word of God, alone.


My allegiance is to the Son of God, alone

herald
Apr 9th 2009, 01:17 AM
"Every Scripture is God breathed..." 2 Tim 3:16. We learn about Him by reading His Word.

Jesus is the Word of God. John 1; 1 John 1:1; 1 John 5:7; Rev 19:13.

Rom 16:26 refers to "the obedience of faith."

We must read His Word to see what His will is.

"But be ye DOERS of the Word and not hearers only, DECEIVING yourselves." Ja 1:22.

Johnboy
Apr 9th 2009, 06:49 AM
"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." Ex 3:14.

"After these things the Word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision saying, Fear not, Abram: I AM thy shield and thy exceeding great reward." Gen 15:1.

To Jacob: "And, behold, I AM with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of." Gen 28:15.

To Jacob: "And God said unto him, I AM God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; and nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins." Gen 35:11.

"Moreoever He said, I AM the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." Ex 3:6.

"Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I AM the Lord, and I will bring you out from the burdens of the Egyptians (Egypt: a type of the world), and I wll rid you of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments." Ex 6:6.

"...thou mayest know that, I AM the Lord in the midst of the earth." Ex 8:22.

"And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and My signs which I have done among them; that ye may know that I AM the Lord." Ex 10:2.

"And said, if thou wilt diligently hearken to the Voice (His Word) of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in His sight, and wilt give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I AM the Lord that healeth thee." Ex 15:26.

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them (graven images), nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God AM a jealous God, visiting the iniquity (lawlessness) of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me and keep My commandments." Ex 20:5,6.

"For I AM the Lord thy God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I AM holy..." Lev 11:44.

"Ye shall do My judgments, and keep Mine ordinances, to walk therein: I AM the Lord your God. Ye shall therefore keep My judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I AM the Lord." Lev 18:4,5.

"...For I AM gracious." Ex 22:27.

"Ye shall fear every man his mother and his father, and keep My Sabbaths: I AM the Lord your God." Lev 19:3.

"And ye shall not swear by My name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of the Lord thy God: I AM the Lord." Lev 19:12.

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I AM the Lord." Lev 19:18.

"Therefore shall ye keep My commandments: I AM the Lord." Lev 22:31.

"And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My Covenant with them: for I AM the Lord their God." Lev 26:44.

"While He yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud which said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I AM well pleased: hear ye Him." Matt 17:5.

"He trusted in God: let Him deliver Him now, if He will have Him: for He said, I AM the Son of God." Matt 27:43.

Jesus said, "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I AM with you always, even unto the end of the world." Amen. Matt 28:20.

Jesus said, "I AM that bread of life. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof and not die. I AM the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." John 6:48-51.

"Then spake Jesus again unto them I AM the light of the world: he that followeth Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." John 8:12.

"Jesus said unto them, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM." John 8:58.

"Then said Jesus unto them again, I AM the door of the sheep." John 10:7.

"I AM the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth His life for the sheep." John 10:11.

"I AM the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." John 11:25.

"Jesus saith unto him, I AM the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." John 14:6.

"I AM the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman." John 15:1.

The Triune God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit - One in essence, three in person. Gen 1:26; 3:22;Isa 9:6; Lu 1:47;John 1:1; Acts 5:3,4.
Are you trying to say that any time that Christ or God say I am in a sentence it is emphatic statement. That makes no sense half the time 'am' is put there to make sense of the sentence.
In John 9 v 9 (sword:///John%209:9) Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Is that the same he says I AM with 'he' hyphenated

Teke
Apr 9th 2009, 12:55 PM
Since you know about this prophecy, you can be sure the Vatican is well aware of it. Do you think they made preparations for it ahead of time to give themselves an advantage? Here is a little background on this subject that most people do not realize. The stated purpose for the crusades was to free the holy shrines in Palestine from the evil Muslims. The real purpose was to set up a base of operations in the general area in order to launch attacks against the Eastern Church that was headquartered in Baghdad. Now, does this ring a bell? Terick Aziz who was the foreign relations man for Saddam Hussein was a Christian. (By the way he got off with a few years prison term.) So, before the good war of the Gulf, there was still a large base of Christians there. Were they Roman Catholic? No, Eastern Orthodox. Who is the greatest enemy of the Vatican? Not the Muslims, it is the Eastern Church who until now has not recognized the authority of the Pope.

I believe you've misunderstood me. An ecumenical council is not a council that the pope has any authority over. The pope is just one of many bishops, who will or will not show up at an ecumenical council.

Eastern Christians are not led by patriarchates such as that of Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Russia etc. Bishops oversee their perspective church or churches. We can't all go to councils, so bishops go to represent their churches and what they have to say about matters pertaining to the faith.


As far as the "trinity" thing goes, my main point is that people read into things in the Bible what they want them to say, based on what they already believe. That's fine as far as I am concerned, I am not going to worry about what you think about it. The problem comes when you have a "religious" body with a long history of foisting erroneous doctrines on the people, set as their ultimate goal, the defining of God and all his aspects, so that my beliefs need to come into conformity with theirs. You have to imagine that whatever they do is going to benefit themselves and give more power to the anti-christ. They are not doing this to uplift Christ. It may seem so, but if they do, it is only to lift him out of his seat as the Ruler of the Earth, in order to put their own guy more firmly into it. That is why he is the anti-christ, because he takes the rightful place of Christ.

A council isn't called to change the Trinity dogma. That was established in the churches beginnings. The eastern church calls to the western church to return to that dogma, as well as the canons/guidelines (scripture and tradition which includes Apostolic teaching and understanding).

In another post you posted the following quote

Should we heed their proclamations about the nature of God, when they make a new council and then publish their conclusions? I hope not. Individuality allows for the true Gospel. Forced uniformity squashes the work of the Holy Spirit that works on people in a one on one way. We should not set aside the gathering together of believers but the purpose should be to support the truth in some and to point out the errors in others. This happens at a congregational level and not from pronouncements from on high of a self appointed authority who's claims for itself nullifies the real ultimate authority.

A council would not make any new proclamations about the Trinity. It would however, address the "individuality" issue, because the church is to be a unified whole. The eastern and western churches have been in a schism since the filoque clause (which pertains to the Trinity) of the western church. That was not an ecumenical decision.
So such a "gathering of believers" would be to support the truth and point out error. That is what all ecumenical councils were about in the early church.

As to "forced uniformity", the church is to do no such thing. The Church, as the Body of Christ, is to transform us, not the other way around. The other way around, is the path the western church took.
Without the eastern church holding fast (even dying for) to the faith originally given by Jesus and the Apostles, it would not still exist. The world would not find it in the western church, although there would be some evidence.

Teke
Apr 9th 2009, 01:39 PM
Are you trying to say that any time that Christ or God say I am in a sentence it is emphatic statement. That makes no sense half the time 'am' is put there to make sense of the sentence.
In John 9 v 9 (sword:///John%209:9) Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Is that the same he says I AM with 'he' hyphenated

In Greek "am" depends on what's being said to understand it's usage, as it is a predicate. In the John verse you have posted, "am" is a copula, connecting to he. ie. verb to subject

In Greek the idea of the verb (am=Gr.eimi) preponderates, and some person or thing is said to exist by way of distinction from things non existent.

Ethnikos
Apr 9th 2009, 08:32 PM
I believe you've misunderstood me. An ecumenical council is not a council that the pope has any authority over. The pope is just one of many bishops, who will or will not show up at an ecumenical council.
. . .
A council would not make any new proclamations about the Trinity. It would however, address the "individuality" issue, because the church is to be a unified whole. The eastern and western churches have been in a schism since the filoque clause (which pertains to the Trinity) of the western church. That was not an ecumenical decision.
So such a "gathering of believers" would be to support the truth and point out error. That is what all ecumenical councils were about in the early church.
The filioque clause. Thanks for pointing that out. I had to look it up. It seems to go right along with what I was trying to say. The actual dispute seems rather trivial but the importance is in who has the authority to make a document mean whatever they want it to. The Pope decided he had the right to change the original creed that came from the council. So, why would you want to have a conference with someone who could make an agreement and then go right ahead and say whatever he agreed to meant the opposite of what the partners in the agreement thought he meant?

Teke
Apr 9th 2009, 09:00 PM
The filioque clause. Thanks for pointing that out. I had to look it up. It seems to go right along with what I was trying to say. The actual dispute seems rather trivial but the importance is in who has the authority to make a document mean whatever they want it to. The Pope decided he had the right to change the original creed that came from the council. So, why would you want to have a conference with someone who could make an agreement and then go right ahead and say whatever he agreed to meant the opposite of what the partners in the agreement thought he meant?

Because in the Body of Christ, we are to "love one another". Love faileth not.:saint:

Ethnikos
Apr 9th 2009, 09:07 PM
Because in the Body of Christ, we are to "love one another". :saint:I think it might be safe to exclude Satan, his demons, and the anti-christ. Read the three angel's message in Revelation. It says get out of Babylon. My opinion is that it would be energy better spent to persuade catholics to leave their "church" and to join the real church, rather than have a reconciliation with your enemy, the anti-christ.
Been listening to the pirate situation in the news? The sailors captured one of the hijackers and made a deal with the pirates to get the captain back. Once they had their guy back, the pirates said pretty much, "Suckers!:lol:"

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