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Firstfruits
Apr 7th 2009, 03:38 PM
Is the following statement true or false?

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. :bible:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

TrustGzus
Apr 7th 2009, 03:43 PM
As Christians, can we really claim that something written by Paul in Romans is false? That doesn't sound like a reasonable option. Anyway, some context helps as Paul provides a supporting argument for his claim . . .
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.[/URL]

[URL="http://bibleforums.org/#_ftnref1"] (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1)The Holy Bible : Today's New International Version. 2005 (Ro 13:8-10). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Firstfruits
Apr 7th 2009, 06:26 PM
As Christians, can we really claim that something written by Paul in Romans is false? That doesn't sound like a reasonable option. Anyway, some context helps as Paul provides a supporting argument for his claim . . .

Thanks TrustGzus,

I know it may not sound like a reasonable option but would you agree that if we accept what is written to be true and we love as commanded that we are therefore complete in the will of God as it is his law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 7th 2009, 06:40 PM
Knowing that by loving another fulfils the law, would that therefore apply to our reasonable service to God?

Rom 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Is that the service of love?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Ethnikos
Apr 7th 2009, 09:01 PM
In reply to the original post, we know there are two points of the law. The first is concerning our worship of God and the second is concerning how we treat others. This verse you offer up is true enough as it applies to the second part. If you try to make this out to say we have no other legal obligation towards God, I would have to say that assertion is false.

THOM
Apr 8th 2009, 03:19 AM
Is the following statement true or false?

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. :bible:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

It is Written: "JESUS said unto him, Thou shalt love THE LORD thy GOD with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:37-40)"

Based solely on Matthew 22:37-40, I'd say the "statement" is TRUE.

Reedan
Apr 8th 2009, 03:24 AM
It is Written: "JESUS said unto him, Thou shalt love THE LORD thy GOD with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:37-40)"

Based solely on Matthew 22:37-40, I'd say the "statement" is TRUE.

I agree

But i am not so sure about the owe no man anything

embankmentlb
Apr 8th 2009, 05:15 AM
In reply to the original post, we know there are two points of the law. The first is concerning our worship of God and the second is concerning how we treat others. This verse you offer up is true enough as it applies to the second part. If you try to make this out to say we have no other legal obligation towards God, I would have to say that assertion is false.
What would "other legal obligations toward God be" ?

crossnote
Apr 8th 2009, 05:46 AM
Is the following statement true or false?

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. :bible:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Let me try this out..Since we never fully love another we never fully fulfill the Law. And since we fall short we then still owe one another love. In other words, always love and owe love to one another even though that love falls short.

Lars777
Apr 8th 2009, 06:06 AM
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)




Now, I think that many people have questions about this opening sentence, "Owe no one anything": They ask themselves, "Is it wrong for a Christian to contract a debt, or to buy on the installment plan, or mortgage his house.

Is this wrong? Is it prohibited by this sentence, 'Owe no one anything'?" Well, the answer is, "No!" It is not wrong because a contract, of course, is really just a mutually agreed upon arrangement by which the money is to be paid.

It is mutual, and it is never a debt unless you miss a payment; then you come under the enforcement of this passage.

But, of course, if you deliberately go out and contract for more than you are able to pay for, this is dishonesty in the extreme.

Paul is pointing out that no Christian must do this because, if you live on this basis, what you are really doing is living on another person's money without his permission, and that is simply a glorified form of stealing. So he urges, "Owe no one anything."

But there is a debt that you can never fully pay, and it is a continually valid debt -- the debt of love.

You remember, at the beginning of this very letter to the Romans, Paul says, "I am debtor both to the Greeks and to the barbarians," (Romans 1:14).

I owe every man a debt; I owe him the obligation to love him; I owe him the necessity of love.

The reason Paul gives here, you will notice, is because law is fulfilled by love: Love alone fulfills the Law. In other words, love makes a good citizen out of you without any need for a police force, without any need for enforcing agencies, because no man who loves his neighbor is going to injure him.

If you love your neighbor: Whether he lives next door to you or across town from you, whether he works in the shop next to you or at the desk next to you, whether you have any other relationship with him, if you love him, you can't injure him!

You will never commit adultery with his wife, or kill, or steal, or covet something that he has. You won't envy his brand new car, or his fine green lawn, or anything else that he possesses because, if you love him, you are concerned about his welfare.

But the man who hasn't learned to love is merely forced to wait until he can find a good opportunity to do some of these things that are unlawful and injurious. That is why love alone fulfills the law.


I think you will agree that the great and overwhelming demand of our day is to find a way to create love in men's hearts, to find a way to teach us how to love.

The other day at a breakfast meeting of executives, one of the men brought up the passage in which our Lord quotes these words: "Love thy neighbor as thyself," (Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 19:19, 22:39, Mark 12:31 KJV).

It was agreed among all those men present that, if men would do this, this would solve all the problems of our lives.

Everybody nodded his head very sagely, and fully agreed, but somebody had the temerity to ask, "How do you do this?" And no one had an answer. You see, this is the great demand of the hour.

Now, I think it would be easy to leave this right here, but I am not content to do so because this isn't the whole picture of love, and I don't want you to get a false and distorted emphasis.

It is true that love will keep a man from ruining or harming his neighbor, but love goes further than that.

That will satisfy the law, but that will never satisfy the heart of God if that is all that you show. I think it is easy for Christians to be very smug right at this point.

So many of us pat ourselves on the back, and say, "Well, I have never done any harm to anyone," and we expect to be commended for that position.

I have found that kind of an expression usually doesn't stand very close examination when you analyze it carefully.

But, even if it did, this isn't the full expression of love. Look at Verse 20 of Chapter 12 of Romans, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." That is love.

Not just an attitude that says, "Well, I've never done any harm to anyone. I won't hurt anyone." But a positive approach that says, "I will do good to someone."

You see, the Golden Rule is not "Don't do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." It is positive.

That negative way is the pagan form of the Golden Rule. You'll find it in the writings of Confucius and Buddha, but it is always in the negative form, "Don't do unto others as you have them not do unto you." But that isn't what Jesus said.

Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," (Matthew 7:12). This is a positive approach.

Now, I think that we will never begin to manifest this kind of love, which is so needed today, for lack of which society is simply coming unglued, coming apart at the seams -- we will never begin to manifest this outreaching love, illustrated by the Lord in the parable of the Good Samaritan, until we first become aware of how pitifully we Christians often lack it.

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2009, 06:36 AM
In reply to the original post, we know there are two points of the law. The first is concerning our worship of God and the second is concerning how we treat others. This verse you offer up is true enough as it applies to the second part. If you try to make this out to say we have no other legal obligation towards God, I would have to say that assertion is false.

What therefore is our reasonable service to God?

Rom 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2009, 06:39 AM
It is Written: "JESUS said unto him, Thou shalt love THE LORD thy GOD with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:37-40)"

Based solely on Matthew 22:37-40, I'd say the "statement" is TRUE.

Knowing that love by loving another fulfils the law is therefore love the perfect will of God?

Rom 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2009, 06:46 AM
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)




Now, I think that many people have questions about this opening sentence, "Owe no one anything": They ask themselves, "Is it wrong for a Christian to contract a debt, or to buy on the installment plan, or mortgage his house.

Is this wrong? Is it prohibited by this sentence, 'Owe no one anything'?" Well, the answer is, "No!" It is not wrong because a contract, of course, is really just a mutually agreed upon arrangement by which the money is to be paid.

It is mutual, and it is never a debt unless you miss a payment; then you come under the enforcement of this passage.

But, of course, if you deliberately go out and contract for more than you are able to pay for, this is dishonesty in the extreme.

Paul is pointing out that no Christian must do this because, if you live on this basis, what you are really doing is living on another person's money without his permission, and that is simply a glorified form of stealing. So he urges, "Owe no one anything."

But there is a debt that you can never fully pay, and it is a continually valid debt -- the debt of love.

You remember, at the beginning of this very letter to the Romans, Paul says, "I am debtor both to the Greeks and to the barbarians," (Romans 1:14).

I owe every man a debt; I owe him the obligation to love him; I owe him the necessity of love.

The reason Paul gives here, you will notice, is because law is fulfilled by love: Love alone fulfills the Law. In other words, love makes a good citizen out of you without any need for a police force, without any need for enforcing agencies, because no man who loves his neighbor is going to injure him.

If you love your neighbor: Whether he lives next door to you or across town from you, whether he works in the shop next to you or at the desk next to you, whether you have any other relationship with him, if you love him, you can't injure him!

You will never commit adultery with his wife, or kill, or steal, or covet something that he has. You won't envy his brand new car, or his fine green lawn, or anything else that he possesses because, if you love him, you are concerned about his welfare.

But the man who hasn't learned to love is merely forced to wait until he can find a good opportunity to do some of these things that are unlawful and injurious. That is why love alone fulfills the law.


I think you will agree that the great and overwhelming demand of our day is to find a way to create love in men's hearts, to find a way to teach us how to love.

The other day at a breakfast meeting of executives, one of the men brought up the passage in which our Lord quotes these words: "Love thy neighbor as thyself," (Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 19:19, 22:39, Mark 12:31 KJV).

It was agreed among all those men present that, if men would do this, this would solve all the problems of our lives.

Everybody nodded his head very sagely, and fully agreed, but somebody had the temerity to ask, "How do you do this?" And no one had an answer. You see, this is the great demand of the hour.

Now, I think it would be easy to leave this right here, but I am not content to do so because this isn't the whole picture of love, and I don't want you to get a false and distorted emphasis.

It is true that love will keep a man from ruining or harming his neighbor, but love goes further than that.

That will satisfy the law, but that will never satisfy the heart of God if that is all that you show. I think it is easy for Christians to be very smug right at this point.

So many of us pat ourselves on the back, and say, "Well, I have never done any harm to anyone," and we expect to be commended for that position.

I have found that kind of an expression usually doesn't stand very close examination when you analyze it carefully.

But, even if it did, this isn't the full expression of love. Look at Verse 20 of Chapter 12 of Romans, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." That is love.

Not just an attitude that says, "Well, I've never done any harm to anyone. I won't hurt anyone." But a positive approach that says, "I will do good to someone."

You see, the Golden Rule is not "Don't do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." It is positive.

That negative way is the pagan form of the Golden Rule. You'll find it in the writings of Confucius and Buddha, but it is always in the negative form, "Don't do unto others as you have them not do unto you." But that isn't what Jesus said.

Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," (Matthew 7:12). This is a positive approach.

Now, I think that we will never begin to manifest this kind of love, which is so needed today, for lack of which society is simply coming unglued, coming apart at the seams -- we will never begin to manifest this outreaching love, illustrated by the Lord in the parable of the Good Samaritan, until we first become aware of how pitifully we Christians often lack it.

Thank you Lars,

That has been really edyfying, I hope noy just for me but for others.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Ethnikos
Apr 8th 2009, 08:40 AM
What would "other legal obligations toward God be" ?
Read this:


And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
From this we should be able to pick out a few things.
preach the gospel
fear God
give glory to God
worship the creator God
get out of Babylon
refuse to follow the beast
keep the commandments of God
keep the faith of Jesus

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2009, 11:06 AM
Read this:
From this we should be able to pick out a few things.
preach the gospel
fear God
give glory to God
worship the creator God
get out of Babylon
refuse to follow the beast
keep the commandments of God
keep the faith of Jesus

So if we preach the gospel, fear God, give glory to God, worship the creator God, get out of Babylon, refuse to follow the beast, keep the commandments of God which as it is written is fulfilled by loving one another, and keeping the faith of Jesus, would this therefore be our reasonable service to God?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Ethnikos
Apr 8th 2009, 06:51 PM
So if we preach the gospel, fear God, give glory to God, worship the creator God, get out of Babylon, refuse to follow the beast, keep the commandments of God which as it is written is fulfilled by loving one another, and keeping the faith of Jesus, would this therefore be our reasonable service to God?I have a long history of arguing with you and it usually ends up with a thread being shut down instead of any resolving of issues so I do not exactly get thrilled about having a direct confrontation. I feel that you have a particular view on the law and we do not agree. I have gotten past thinking that I can persuade you with arguments from the Bible because I have spent a lot of energy trying that. I have my own particular view on the subject and admit that it comes from my religious background. I believe that when Revelation talks about the three angel's message, it is really talking to us as Christians, to go out to the world and give this warning. People seem to have lost sight of the ultimate reason why God has the right to make demands of us and to hold our lives accountable to Him. It is because God created us. The fourth commandment of the famous Ten Commandments states this concept clearly by spelling out exactly why we need to show our recognition of God as deserving of our worship and exactly how to show it. God created the world in six days and on the seventh, rested and then hallowed or sanctified that day. In that sacred day, we are to do no work, in that God had completed his work and rested that day. It was set up as a perpetual remembrance to that work and the fact that the God we worship was the One who did that work. We do not worship the sun because it is only one of His creations and only has the power that God gave it. This may seem academic until you have a religious appearing entity on earth who tells you that we need to honor God by keeping the day that is set up for worshiping the sun. If you think this is some far off future hypothetical situation, you need to get out of that way of thinking. We are not going to be allowed to be left in peace and not have to worry about having repressive laws enacted against us. The forces of the anti-christ are hard at work bringing their plan into fruition and it can be found in Vatican documents, and speeches delivered by the Pope. They are determined to have this mandatory day of rest put in place right now. Even people who believe in the earth goddess will think it is something great that will help save the planet. I am concerned about everyone and do not want them to go unprepared into these terrible times that have just gotten underway.

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2009, 07:03 PM
I have a long history of arguing with you and it usually ends up with a thread being shut down instead of any resolving of issues so I do not exactly get thrilled about having a direct confrontation. I feel that you have a particular view on the law and we do not agree. I have gotten past thinking that I can persuade you with arguments from the Bible because I have spent a lot of energy trying that. I have my own particular view on the subject and admit that it comes from my religious background. I believe that when Revelation talks about the three angel's message, it is really talking to us as Christians, to go out to the world and give this warning. People seem to have lost sight of the ultimate reason why God has the right to make demands of us and to hold our lives accountable to Him. It is because God created us. The fourth commandment of the famous Ten Commandments states this concept clearly by spelling out exactly how to show our recognition of God as deserving of our worship and exactly how to show it. God created the world in six days and on the seventh, rested and then hallowed or sanctified that day. In that sacred day, we are to do no work, in that God had completed his work and rested that day. It was set up as a perpetual remembrance to that work and the fact that the God we worship was the One who did that work. We do not worship the sun because it is only one of His creations and only has the power that God gave it. This may seem academic until you have a religious appearing entity on earth who tells you that we need to honor God by keeping the day that is set up for worshiping the sun. If you think this is some far off future hypothetical situation, you need to get out of that way of thinking. We are not going to be allowed to be left in peace and not have to worry about having repressive laws enacted against us. The forces of the anti-christ are hard at work bringing their plan into fruition and can be found in Vatican documents and speeches delivered by the Pope. They are determined to have this mandatory day of rest put in place right now. Even people who believe in the earth goddess will think it is something great that will help save the planet. I am concerned about everyone and do not want them to go unprepared into these terrible times that have just gotten underway.

Thanks Ethnikos,

I was asking in regards to what you have said as to whether or not that was our reasnable service to God.

This is what you have said although not set out as you had put it but in question form.

So if we preach the gospel, fear God, give glory to God, worship the creator God, get out of Babylon, refuse to follow the beast, keep the commandments of God which as it is written is fulfilled by loving one another, and keeping the faith of Jesus, would this therefore be our reasonable service to God?

I would just like to know if what you have said is our reasonable service to God.

God bless you! and thanks,

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
Apr 8th 2009, 07:05 PM
I have a long history of arguing with you and it usually ends up with a thread being shut down instead of any resolving of issues so I do not exactly get thrilled about having a direct confrontation. I feel that you have a particular view on the law and we do not agree. I have gotten past thinking that I can persuade you with arguments from the Bible because I have spent a lot of energy trying that. I have my own particular view on the subject and admit that it comes from my religious background. I believe that when Revelation talks about the three angel's message, it is really talking to us as Christians, to go out to the world and give this warning. People seem to have lost sight of the ultimate reason why God has the right to make demands of us and to hold our lives accountable to Him. It is because God created us. The fourth commandment of the famous Ten Commandments states this concept clearly by spelling out exactly why we need to show our recognition of God as deserving of our worship and exactly how to show it. God created the world in six days and on the seventh, rested and then hallowed or sanctified that day. In that sacred day, we are to do no work, in that God had completed his work and rested that day. It was set up as a perpetual remembrance to that work and the fact that the God we worship was the One who did that work. We do not worship the sun because it is only one of His creations and only has the power that God gave it. This may seem academic until you have a religious appearing entity on earth who tells you that we need to honor God by keeping the day that is set up for worshiping the sun. If you think this is some far off future hypothetical situation, you need to get out of that way of thinking. We are not going to be allowed to be left in peace and not have to worry about having repressive laws enacted against us. The forces of the anti-christ are hard at work bringing their plan into fruition and it can be found in Vatican documents, and speeches delivered by the Pope. They are determined to have this mandatory day of rest put in place right now. Even people who believe in the earth goddess will think it is something great that will help save the planet. I am concerned about everyone and do not want them to go unprepared into these terrible times that have just gotten underway.

Galatians 4:9-11
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be (A)known by God, (B)how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless (C)elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

10You (D)observe days and months and seasons and years.

11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Ethnikos
Apr 8th 2009, 07:33 PM
Galatians 4:9-11
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be (A)known by God, (B)how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless (C)elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
10You (D)observe days and months and seasons and years.
11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
Who is doing the enslaving? Is it me? Do I tell you what to do? The answer is that it is a corporate body calling themselves the only church. They do not call the other churches "churches" but "Christian communities". Have you ever heard your pastor say that? He might be talking about the congregation but instead of calling it a church, which it actually is, he will call it something like "the community of Christ". According to the thinking of anyone who recognizes the Roman "church" as in any way legitimate, go right along in thinking that there is only one church. That is not true at all if you read the Bible. Paul talks about the churches and Revelation talks about the churches and the risen and glorified Jesus Christ in heaven talks about the churches. We can not use the term because some doctrine in Rome says we are not churches? Here is another key word to listen for coming from your pastor, "campus". A college will have a campus and it means the grounds of their property where their school buildings stand. Sorry but the grounds of the building of the meeting place of the congregation of Christians is a "church". Of course the agents of Rome are not allowed to say the word when addressing anything belonging to protestants so they substitute the word campus.
My point is God does not enslave us and I am not trying to enslave you. There was a old covenant that had an administration through Moses that ended up condemning us because of our own inability to fulfill us. We have a new covenant that is administered not through a mediator between God and Man , but trough someone who is both God and man and it is sufficient for us for salvation. So, we are not enslaved to the things of the world. Does that make the Law of Moses of no effect or does it mean the Law was bad? No, but the power of the old covenant to kill us has been superseded by the new covenant in Christ's blood and administered by a living resurrected Jesus who was seen by John in heaven saying he has been given all the power of the Almighty God.
Take another look at the verses and try to understand that he was actually talking about pagan festivals and not the Sabbath. Not The Holy Sabbath that is the one in the Ten Commandments.
God sits on His throne in heaven and does not come down on earth with robes and hats of authority and use civil powers to enforce his will on people. That is the work of God's enemy, Satan. Satan is the enslaver, not the One who was the God of Israel who led them with His own hand out of the bondage of Egypt. If you can not tell the difference, you need to pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you out of the deception which is Babylon and get out into the clear air without payed theocrats telling you what you should think and say and do.

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2009, 07:47 PM
Let me try this out..Since we never fully love another we never fully fulfill the Law. And since we fall short we then still owe one another love. In other words, always love and owe love to one another even though that love falls short.

If we fall short by causing ill to another then we can repent of that hurt we have caused.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
Apr 8th 2009, 08:12 PM
Does that make the Law of Moses of no effect or does it mean the Law was bad? No, but the power of the old covenant to kill us has been superseded by the new covenant in Christ's blood and administered by a living resurrected Jesus who was seen by John in heaven saying he has been given all the power of the Almighty God.


Galatians 2

19(AF)Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been (AG)ordained through angels (AH)by the agency of a mediator, until (AI)the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

20Now (AJ)a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.

21Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? (AK)May it never be! For (AL)if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

22But the Scripture has (AM)shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, (AN)being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

24Therefore the Law has become our (AO)tutor to lead us to Christ, so that (AP)we may be justified by faith.

25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a (AQ)tutor.

26For you are all (AR)sons of God through faith in (AS)Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, " CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

Firstfruits
Apr 8th 2009, 08:28 PM
It seems as though we do not have faith in what is written, and believe we may not be complete.

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. :bible:

With all that has been discussed on this thread I ask again, is this scripture true or false?

Does this apply to all?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

TrustGzus
Apr 9th 2009, 02:26 AM
I'll jump back in. Let's take it back to your reply to me.
Thanks TrustGzus,

I know it may not sound like a reasonable option but would you agree that if we accept what is written to be true and we love as commanded that we are therefore complete in the will of God as it is his law?

God bless you!

FirstfruitsWhat do you mean by "complete in the will of God as it is in the law"?

I'm not sure what you mean by that long phrase. Put it in some other words for me.

I do accept what is written by Paul to be true and that we should love as commanded, but then I don't know what it means to be "complete in the will of God as it is in his law."

Grace & peace,

Joe

THOM
Apr 9th 2009, 02:52 AM
I'll jump back in. Let's take it back to your reply to me.What do you mean by "complete in the will of God as it is in the law"?

I'm not sure what you mean by that long phrase. Put it in some other words for me.

I do accept what is written by Paul to be true and that we should love as commanded, but then I don't know what it means to be "complete in the will of God as it is in his law."

Grace & peace,

Joe

Here's what it should mean:

"LOVE" is the only emotion that GOD has given to all of mankind to exhibit/give/demonstrate/pass on/etc., that is dependent, totally, on the one giving it.

You don't love someone because they love you back (Remember that person you loved that didn't love you back?). You love because you're in total control of the love that you give to your object of the love that you're giving. The more love you give, the more love you have to give (never noticed that, huh?). It is the key thing.

When you love GOD, half a much as HE [has FREELY CHOSEN to] LOVE you, HE becomes the center of your being; When you love your neighbor as you love yourself. . .think about all the things that you wouldn't want done to yourself, and then don't ever do those things to your neighbor!

And when you love, like I've just described, guess what. . .you fulfill EACH and EVERY Commandment that GOD has ever come up with! You don't have to worry about "doing" the Commandments of GOD, because the Commandments of GOD have become your "being". . .and "being" will automatically cause you to "do(ing)"!

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2009, 06:45 AM
I'll jump back in. Let's take it back to your reply to me.What do you mean by "complete in the will of God as it is in the law"?

I'm not sure what you mean by that long phrase. Put it in some other words for me.

I do accept what is written by Paul to be true and that we should love as commanded, but then I don't know what it means to be "complete in the will of God as it is in his law."

Grace & peace,

Joe

It is what God has commanded us to do, it is what he has commanded us to do that makes us complete according to his will/command.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2009, 06:47 AM
Here's what it should mean:

"LOVE" is the only emotion that GOD has given to all of mankind to exhibit/give/demonstrate/pass on/etc., that is dependent, totally, on the one giving it.

You don't love someone because they love you back (Remember that person you loved that didn't love you back?). You love because you're in total control of the love that you give to your object of the love that you're giving. The more love you give, the more love you have to give (never noticed that, huh?). It is the key thing.

When you love GOD, half a much as HE [has FREELY CHOSEN to] LOVE you, HE becomes the center of your being; When you love your neighbor as you love yourself. . .think about all the things that you wouldn't want done to yourself, and then don't ever do those things to your neighbor!

And when you love, like I've just described, guess what. . .you fulfill EACH and EVERY Commandment that GOD has ever come up with! You don't have to worry about "doing" the Commandments of GOD, because the Commandments of GOD have become your "being". . .and "being" will automatically cause you to "do(ing)"!

Thanks Thom,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 9th 2009, 07:35 AM
Thanks Thom,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

First, sir, what is the meaning of the word fulfilled in regards to context in this scripture that you shared.

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2009, 07:52 AM
First, sir, what is the meaning of the word fulfilled in regards to context in this scripture that you shared.

Firstly it is written "Hath" past tense, "fulfilled" completed.

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. :bible:

If we do as Christ has commanded by loving another we are made complete in Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 9th 2009, 08:27 AM
Firstly it is written "Hath" past tense, "fulfilled" completed.

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. :bible:

If we do as Christ has commanded by loving another we are made complete in Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Included from the Greek Lexicon in the list for definable words that could be assigned to the translation of "peplhrwken (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4137)" are "performed", "satisfied", "done", and "accomplished" as well. These translation could change the interpretation slightly.

Are we using the right tranliteration that matches the context of the Scripture? Possibly, but I think differently. My Bible uses the words more closely related to satisfying defininte objects by actions as prescribed by the commander.

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=amp&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=amp&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=amp','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=amp) ] Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has fulfilled the Law [relating to one's fellowmen, meeting all its requirements].

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=nlt&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=nlt&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=nlt','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=nlt) ] Pay all your debts, except the debt of love for others. You can never finish paying that! If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill all the requirements of God's law.

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=ncv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=ncv&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=ncv','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=ncv) ] Do not owe people anything, except always owe love to each other, because the person who loves others has obeyed all the law.

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=nlv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=nlv&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=nlv','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=nlv) ] Do not owe anyone anything, but love each other. Whoever loves his neighbor has done what the Law says to do.


These try to convey a more precise tranliteration of Mhdeni (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3367)mhden (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3367)ofeilete, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3784)(5720 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5720))ei (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1487)mh (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3361)to (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)allhlouv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=240)agapan; (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=25)(5721 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5721))o (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)gar (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1063)agapwn (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=25)(5723 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5723))ton (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)eteron (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2087)nomon (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3551)peplhrwken. (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4137)(5758 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5758))

Root worded from pleroo


to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
I abound, I am liberally supplied


to render full, i.e. to complete
to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
to consummate: a number
to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)

to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

I believe number five matches the context better, not one through three as you possibly hint to or consider the more accurate translation.

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2009, 09:20 AM
Included from the Greek Lexicon in the list for definable words that could be assigned to the translation of "peplhrwken (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4137)" are "performed", "satisfied", "done", and "accomplished" as well. These translation could change the interpretation slightly.

Are we using the right tranliteration that matches the context of the Scripture? Possibly, but I think differently. My Bible uses the words more closely related to satisfying defininte objects by actions as prescribed by the commander.

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=amp&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=amp&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=amp','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=amp) ] Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has fulfilled the Law [relating to one's fellowmen, meeting all its requirements].

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=nlt&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=nlt&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=nlt','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=nlt) ] Pay all your debts, except the debt of love for others. You can never finish paying that! If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill all the requirements of God's law.

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=ncv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=ncv&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=ncv','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=ncv) ] Do not owe people anything, except always owe love to each other, because the person who loves others has obeyed all the law.

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=nlv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=nlv&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=nlv','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=nlv) ] Do not owe anyone anything, but love each other. Whoever loves his neighbor has done what the Law says to do.


These try to convey a more precise tranliteration of Mhdeni (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3367)mhden (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3367)ofeilete, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3784)(5720 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5720))ei (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1487)mh (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3361)to (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)allhlouv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=240)agapan; (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=25)(5721 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5721))o (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)gar (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1063)agapwn (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=25)(5723 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5723))ton (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)eteron (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2087)nomon (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3551)peplhrwken. (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4137)(5758 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5758))

Root worded from pleroo


to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
I abound, I am liberally supplied


to render full, i.e. to complete
to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
to consummate: a number
to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)

to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

I believe number five matches the context better, not one through three as you possibly hint to or consider the more accurate translation.

Please note that I did not hint at number three as I said "complete" which is according to no.5

to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.
What has Christ commanded?

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

shepherdsword
Apr 9th 2009, 09:29 AM
Is the following statement true or false?

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. :bible:

God bless you!

Firstfruits
It can be nothing but true

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2009, 09:54 AM
It can be nothing but true

Thanks Shepherdsword,

So it is therefore in accordance with The Shepherds word:)?

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 9th 2009, 03:32 PM
Please note that I did not hint at number three as I said "complete" which is according to no.5
to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.
What has Christ commanded?

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Did you just pay attention to what you acknowledged unconsciously? The word fulfill is an action verb that dictates that a particular prescribed duty has to be applied as a duty. Hence, it is a word demanding performance as an act which is defined as love. Love evidence by a sincere attempt to preform commands given by the great commander in chief. It is not a abritrary or relative command, but delegated in its origin.

embankmentlb
Apr 9th 2009, 04:16 PM
Included from the Greek Lexicon in the list for definable words that could be assigned to the translation of "peplhrwken (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4137)" are "performed", "satisfied", "done", and "accomplished" as well. These translation could change the interpretation slightly.

Are we using the right tranliteration that matches the context of the Scripture? Possibly, but I think differently. My Bible uses the words more closely related to satisfying defininte objects by actions as prescribed by the commander.

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=amp&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=amp&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=amp','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=amp) ] Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has fulfilled the Law [relating to one's fellowmen, meeting all its requirements].

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=nlt&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=nlt&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=nlt','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=nlt) ] Pay all your debts, except the debt of love for others. You can never finish paying that! If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill all the requirements of God's law.

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=ncv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=ncv&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=ncv','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=ncv) ] Do not owe people anything, except always owe love to each other, because the person who loves others has obeyed all the law.

13:8 - [ In Context (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13:8&t=nlv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en) | Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+13&t=nlv&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss this Verse (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Romans+13:8) ]
http://www.studylight.org/images/clear.gif[ Multi-Translation (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUp('multi.cgi?bk=ro&ch=13&vs=8&t=nlv','multi',500,450,0,1,1,450,20)) | Make Poster (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/poster.cgi?verse=ro+13:8&t=nlv) ] Do not owe anyone anything, but love each other. Whoever loves his neighbor has done what the Law says to do.


These try to convey a more precise tranliteration of Mhdeni (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3367)mhden (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3367)ofeilete, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3784)(5720 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5720))ei (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1487)mh (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3361)to (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)allhlouv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=240)agapan; (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=25)(5721 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5721))o (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)gar (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1063)agapwn (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=25)(5723 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5723))ton (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)eteron (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2087)nomon (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3551)peplhrwken. (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4137)(5758 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5758))

Root worded from pleroo


to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
I abound, I am liberally supplied


to render full, i.e. to complete
to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
to consummate: a number
to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)

to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

I believe number five matches the context better, not one through three as you possibly hint to or consider the more accurate translation.

Please excuse my ignorance. What the heck are you talking about?

manichunter
Apr 9th 2009, 05:10 PM
Please excuse my ignorance. What the heck are you talking about?

What I am conveying is that the word is translated as fulfilled but taken out of context as to its meaning in cohesion to its environment. The word does from the original greek in context to the Scripture brother Fruit used does not mean fulfilled as in completed the law, but preformed the law or did his required duty. Some teach this Scripture out of context. You know like the common dictionary, that a word can be assigned various meanings that drastically change the definition. However, some people make legitimate mistakes when they assign the wrong definition to a translated word which changes the context.

This is an example of taking a Scripture of context if the word fulfilled is used to mean the first four definitions and not the fifth. However, the fifth kinds of challenges a lot of doctrinal beliefs that a duty as defined by torah is no longer required of believers.

Most teach that a duty is not necessary other than to love one another, but a study of the original text puts a more detailed requirement on believers that can be spelled out and seen as active from the torah. I agree love is the motivation, but the means of love is according to a duty according to the commander's orders, not works for any proof of self-righteousness, but the grace to immulate our Savior by following Him in all His ways, which was described as perfect and never in violation of torah.

embankmentlb
Apr 9th 2009, 05:35 PM
What I am conveying is that the word is translated as fulfilled but taken out of context as to its meaning in cohesion to its environment. The word does from the original greek in context to the Scripture brother Fruit used does not mean fulfilled as in completed the law, but preformed the law or did his required duty. Some teach this Scripture out of context. You know like the common dictionary, that a word can be assigned various meanings that drastically change the definition. However, some people make legitimate mistakes when they assign the wrong definition to a translated word which changes the context.

This is an example of taking a Scripture of context if the word fulfilled is used to mean the first four definitions and not the fifth. However, the fifth kinds of challenges a lot of doctrinal beliefs that a duty as defined by torah is no longer required of believers.

Most teach that a duty is not necessary other than to love one another, but a study of the original text puts a more detailed requirement on believers that can be spelled out and seen as active from the torah. I agree love is the motivation, but the means of love is according to a duty according to the commander's orders, not works for any proof of self-righteousness, but the grace to immulate our Savior by following Him in all His ways, which was described as perfect and never in violation of torah.
Am i in error to sum up the above paragraphs as a simple "No" to the original question about Romans 13:8 ?

manichunter
Apr 9th 2009, 05:53 PM
Am i in error to sum up the above paragraphs as a simple "No" to the original question about Romans 13:8 ?


It is true, but not in the same context some suggest. It is true in regards to how we preform love to which the torah is a witness.

embankmentlb
Apr 9th 2009, 06:12 PM
It is true, but not in the same context some suggest. It is true in regards to how we preform love to which the torah is a witness.
Manichunter, sorry, I hope you understand that i am not picking on you. I simply don't understand allot of what you are talking about. Maybe i am slow.
"It is true in regards to how we preform love to which the torah is a witness" I am just not understanding what this means. I have never heard this idea of torah being a witness.

keck553
Apr 9th 2009, 06:29 PM
(Lev 19:18) 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Who around here is trying to keep the Leviticus?

manichunter
Apr 9th 2009, 06:37 PM
Manichunter, sorry, I hope you understand that i am not picking on you. I simply don't understand allot of what you are talking about. Maybe i am slow.
"It is true in regards to how we preform love to which the torah is a witness" I am just not understanding what this means. I have never heard this idea of torah being a witness.

Keck example should explain it better as you should see that what was consider OT still reigns true in the NT concepts and principles.

I must note that I do not adhere to OT and NT separations as some do, it is just the Bible to me. The whole book is profitable along with all of its content.

embankmentlb
Apr 9th 2009, 07:25 PM
Keck example should explain it better as you should see that what was consider OT still reigns true in the NT concepts and principles.

I must note that I do not adhere to OT and NT separations as some do, it is just the Bible to me. The whole book is profitable along with all of its content.

Ok, That's cool, You just kind of have your own thing going.

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2009, 07:40 PM
Did you just pay attention to what you acknowledged unconsciously? The word fulfill is an action verb that dictates that a particular prescribed duty has to be applied as a duty. Hence, it is a word demanding performance as an act which is defined as love. Love evidence by a sincere attempt to preform commands given by the great commander in chief. It is not a abritrary or relative command, but delegated in its origin.

Love is an action, it is shown towards one another. The command from God is to love Christ and love one another as Christ has commanded.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

This action fulfills Gods will.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 9th 2009, 07:51 PM
Some think they can serve God by thought experiment alone.

manichunter
Apr 9th 2009, 07:53 PM
Ok, That's cool, You just kind of have your own thing going.


It is not a isolated thing I adhere to myself. Not that I know of. The question is, is the Bible one book that consist of two volumes or is it just one book. Does it tell the same story with the same subject, precepts, and agenda.

If you say the later, then we are actually in agreement logically, but might be separate in our doctrinal understanding. No biggy.

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2009, 08:01 PM
Some think they can serve God by thought experiment alone.

How does what you say apply to this scripture?

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without The deeds of The law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 9th 2009, 08:06 PM
How does what you say apply to this scripture?

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without The deeds of The law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits



It doesn't apply to any Scripture. That's the problem with spiritualizing away everything in the Bible. All you're left with is the world. And I thought we were supposed to be set apart form the world....

Ethnikos
Apr 9th 2009, 08:07 PM
What I am conveying is that the word is translated as fulfilled but taken out of context as to its meaning in cohesion to its environment. In 1835 Charlse Hodge published his Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, which is considered to be his greatest exegetical work.This is how he translates it:
Owe no man anything, but to love one another-"Acquit yourselves of all obligations except love, which is a debt that must remain ever due"
This is concerning half of the law, which has to do with how you treat other people. Jesus affirmed earlier that the greatest part of the law has to do with loving God.

manichunter
Apr 9th 2009, 09:33 PM
In 1835 Charlse Hodge published his Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, which is considered to be his greatest exegetical work.This is how he translates it:
Owe no man anything, but to love one another-"Acquit yourselves of all obligations except love, which is a debt that must remain ever due"
This is concerning half of the law, which has to do with how you treat other people. Jesus affirmed earlier that the greatest part of the law has to do with loving God.

That is good but not good enough in its translation because it does not give us a complete thought. It does not demonstrate how we should love, or give the beloved an option as to how they should be loved, and it leaves relativity in the equation as to how we are act on love.

Love is not relative but objective.

This is one of the conservative christians because hang up in the world, that the world lives by relativity, but then some live their christian life by a relative love........... Love is not relative, it has been defined by God

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2009, 04:03 PM
It doesn't apply to any Scripture. That's the problem with spiritualizing away everything in the Bible. All you're left with is the world. And I thought we were supposed to be set apart form the world....

If therfore the following scripture is addressed would it be according to the will of God?

2 Cor 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 04:10 PM
I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2009, 04:21 PM
I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

We are either interpreting what is written or accepting it as it is written.

2 Cor 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

So is written to be accepted rather than to add our own opinion to it?

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 04:32 PM
We are either interpreting what is written or accepting it as it is written.

2 Cor 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

So is written to be accepted rather than to add our own opinion to it?

Firstfruits

Opinion? No need. The point being that this Scripture can not be extracted to stand on it's own outside of context. that's how cults get started.

Vhayes
Apr 10th 2009, 05:01 PM
Mani, this may not be what you were asking and if not, then I'm sorry and I will read again and see if I can understand more fully what you are asking -

If I have a child who refuses to eat anything but ice cream, relative love would say, "Feed the little darling ice cream". Real love tells me that will make for one fat, lazy, cranky and weak child. So real love dictates that I give ice cream as a treat but make certain my child has a balanced diet to grow healthy and strong.

Real love isn't about letting someone have everything they ask for - real love is indeed objective; it's doing things for the ULTIMATE good of the person we love. Anything else is sloppy agape.

Does that help?
V

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2009, 05:04 PM
Opinion? No need. The point being that this Scripture can not be extracted to stand on it's own outside of context. that's how cults get started.

Is this scripture in context?

2 Cor 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Thanks keck,

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 10th 2009, 05:51 PM
Mani, this may not be what you were asking and if not, then I'm sorry and I will read again and see if I can understand more fully what you are asking -

If I have a child who refuses to eat anything but ice cream, relative love would say, "Feed the little darling ice cream". Real love tells me that will make for one fat, lazy, cranky and weak child. So real love dictates that I give ice cream as a treat but make certain my child has a balanced diet to grow healthy and strong.

Real love isn't about letting someone have everything they ask for - real love is indeed objective; it's doing things for the ULTIMATE good of the person we love. Anything else is sloppy agape.

Does that help?
V


one thing you do not lack is love kind lady.............

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2009, 10:00 PM
Whose will are we following?

Rom 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

If it is written that love fulfills Gods will is it acceptable that we say otherwise?

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 10:03 PM
Is this scripture in context?

2 Cor 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Thanks keck,

Firstfruits

Is this statement in context?

"It's sunny outside."

thanks FF

God bless you too

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2009, 11:09 AM
Is this statement in context?

"It's sunny outside."

thanks FF

God bless you too

If it is sunny outside then it is correct, if it is not sunny then it is incorrect.

Whereas we expect the weather to change, we do not expect the word of God to change. We either accept that which is written or we do not.

2 Cor 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

God bless you!

Firstfruits

matthew7and1
Apr 11th 2009, 11:52 AM
I agree

But i am not so sure about the owe no man anything

If you truly love the man in the way that you should perhaps you owe them nothing because you have either not indebted yourself or made sure that you did "right" by them in the first place. Maybe it is a command not to indebt yourself because to love someone is to not become indebted.
Maybe it's saying that if you love someone as you lawfully should then you settle your debts, and remain within the bounds of the law.
OR based on the scripture saying "love one another" maybe this scripture is saying that when you do something good for someone and you love them as the bibke says, you do not en-debt them to you and vice versa. basically, all men should give freely and without condition because love is not selfish and does not en-debt.

I don't believe that this is an exhonoration of debt, just a statement that to true love is not to owe....

I hope this is intelligible! :rolleyes:

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2009, 01:46 PM
If you truly love the man in the way that you should perhaps you owe them nothing because you have either not indebted yourself or made sure that you did "right" by them in the first place. Maybe it is a command not to indebt yourself because to love someone is to not become indebted.
Maybe it's saying that if you love someone as you lawfully should then you settle your debts, and remain within the bounds of the law.
OR based on the scripture saying "love one another" maybe this scripture is saying that when you do something good for someone and you love them as the bibke says, you do not en-debt them to you and vice versa. basically, all men should give freely and without condition because love is not selfish and does not en-debt.

I don't believe that this is an exhonoration of debt, just a statement that to true love is not to owe....

I hope this is intelligible! :rolleyes:

If we abide in the following then we will not owe any man, for we would have done unto them as Christ has commended we should which is to love one another.

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

matthew7and1
Apr 11th 2009, 01:53 PM
If we abide in the following then we will not owe any man, for we would have done unto them as Christ has commended we should which is to love one another.

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

God bless you!

Firstfruits
just what i mean. i guess what i left out is that if you do not love as commanded that you may be indebted to others....

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2009, 01:57 PM
just what i mean. i guess what i left out is that if you do not love as commanded that you may be indebted to others....

Amen!!!! Tayariswife,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 01:25 PM
Is the following statement true or false?

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. :bible:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I would have to say that it depend on our faith and accepting that which is written to be true.

God bless you, and thanks for all that have taken part on this thread.

Firstfruits

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