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bagofseed
Apr 8th 2009, 04:57 AM
Reason is weak and cold.


What makes someone true (right correct accurate) is love.
Its not possible without it.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 8th 2009, 05:16 AM
The problem is you're using reason to make that statement, so it's self-refuting.

Without reason, we can't know what love is. Without love, reason can't be actualized. The two go hand in hand.

Furthermore (and most damning), is you have to deal with 1 Peter 3:15 which tells us to use logic and evidence to defend the reasoning within us.

Likewise, just because someone "loves" something doesn't mean it's "true."

markedward
Apr 8th 2009, 05:18 AM
(Zing!)........

bagofseed
Apr 8th 2009, 05:27 AM
The problem is you're using reason to make that statement, so it's self-refuting.

Without reason, we can't know what love is. Without love, reason can't be actualized. The two go hand in hand.

Furthermore (and most damning), is you have to deal with 1 Peter 3:15 which tells us to use logic and evidence to defend the reasoning within us.

Likewise, just because someone "loves" something doesn't mean it's "true."
No actually i am using love to make that statement.
Its all about the source.

Just like when the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.
Or the fall of man from his dependence on Love (God) into his human capacity of reason judging for him self right and wrong apart from God.

I'm not saying reason has not place, just that it is week and cold and without love it is always false.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 8th 2009, 05:32 AM
No actually i am using love to make that statement.
Its all about the source.What do you mean by "reason?" I ask because you, once again, used reasoning to make that statement.

You contradicted what I said, that breaks down to this:

(1) P
(2) Not P
(3) Therefore, not P

You're using logic in order to say I'm wrong - and there's no escaping it...



Just like when the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.
Or the fall of man from his dependence on Love (God) into his human capacity of reason judging for him self right and wrong apart from God.I fail to see why everyone falls for modernity on this. (this is for emphasis) - REASONING IS NOT FROM HUMANS. IT IS NOT OUR MAN-MADE ABILITY. IT IS NOT SOMETHING WE CREATED. IT WAS GIVEN TO US BY GOD.

With that said, our reasoning is fallen and is therefore in dire need of the Holy Spirit to regenerate it. However, even without the Holy Spirit, we have the ability to properly reason certain things, but only in a limited capacity.

Likewise, when we begin with ourselves in reasoning (which might be what you're arguing against, a Cartesian view of reason) then we will always end up with faulty conclusions. Reasoning that begins with God as the first premise, however, will generally end up with the correct conclusions.



I'm not saying reason has not place, just that it is week and cold and without love it is always false.And love without reason is the way to Hell. The two are inseparable.

I mean, how do you deal with the fact that the Bible calls for us to use this "cold" reasoning?

Before you progress in this thread, do you think the following scenarios are possible?

(1) You have a faulty understanding of what "reason" is?

(2) You have a faulty view on how reason and faith work together?

(3) That maybe you haven't really looked into this issue deeply enough before making a judgment on it?

(4) That you're condemning fellow Christians who's entire ministries are based on reaching out to intellects?

(5) That you're condemning anyone who engages in apologetics?

crossnote
Apr 8th 2009, 05:33 AM
Reason is weak and cold.


What makes someone true (right correct accurate) is love.
Its not possible without it.

I seldom see reason pitted against love. Usually it is reason vs. faith.

Faith coupled with God's Word has good reason to act.
Yet reason divorced from God's Word is ...well, as you say...'weak and cold'.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 8th 2009, 05:36 AM
I seldom see reason pitted against love. Usually it is reason vs. faith.

Faith coupled with God's Word has good reason to act.
Yet reason divorced from God's Word is ...well, as you say...'weak and cold'.


Exactly! And that's the problem - too often think "reason" and automatically divorce it from God's Word, forgetting that it actually comes from God to begin with. When reason is brought under God's control again, it is not only helpful, but necessary in order to understand the Bible.

bagofseed
Apr 8th 2009, 05:40 AM
The problem is you're using reason to make that statement, so it's self-refuting.

Without reason, we can't know what love is. Without love, reason can't be actualized. The two go hand in hand.

Furthermore (and most damning), is you have to deal with 1 Peter 3:15 which tells us to use logic and evidence to defend the reasoning within us.

Likewise, just because someone "loves" something doesn't mean it's "true."

I said someone, not something, truth is relative to a Some One who is Love.

I did not say without reason, but rather pointed out its weakness, which you affirmed with your post.

That is to say reason alone is not what gives us eyes to see.

bagofseed
Apr 8th 2009, 05:45 AM
Exactly! And that's the problem - too often think "reason" and automatically divorce it from God's Word, forgetting that it actually comes from God to begin with. When reason is brought under God's control again, it is not only helpful, but necessary in order to understand the Bible.
Sounds reasonable.

But I have come to believe that true understanding of the scriptures requires that the truth of what is being taught first be established in you before you have the capacity to properly understand it with your reason.
I think the term would be spiritually appraised.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 8th 2009, 05:45 AM
You didn't deal with my objections. Could you please? Otherwise you're going around saying something that is quite offensive to those who's ministry is reaching out to the intellects, not to mention unbiblical.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 8th 2009, 05:48 AM
Sounds reasonable.

But I have come to believe that true understanding of the scriptures requires that the truth of what is being taught first be established in you before you have the capacity to properly understand it with your reason.
I think the term would be spiritually appraised.


But how does that negate reason?

bagofseed
Apr 8th 2009, 05:52 AM
You didn't deal with my objections. Could you please? Otherwise you're going around saying something that is quite offensive to those who's ministry is reaching out to the intellects, not to mention unbiblical.
I don't discount the ministry, we are to contend earnestly for the faith.

But what makes our arguments true accurate and powerful is not the argument itself but rather the fact that the truth of it is alive in us.
The truth of all of it is Love.

bagofseed
Apr 8th 2009, 05:54 AM
But how does that negate reason?
Again, I don't negate reason I just point out its weakness.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 8th 2009, 06:00 AM
I don't discount the ministry, we are to contend earnestly for the faith.

But what makes our arguments true accurate and powerful is not the argument itself but rather the fact that the truth of it is alive in us.
The truth of all of it is Love.

Then it's subjective. If it's all internally based and experientially based, it's subjective. Your truth is no better than a Muslim's truth if both are based on love.

You also didn't deal with any of the objections I brought forth - specifically the questions.

bagofseed
Apr 8th 2009, 06:03 AM
Then it's subjective. If it's all internally based and experientially based, it's subjective. Your truth is no better than a Muslim's truth if both are based on love.

You also didn't deal with any of the objections I brought forth - specifically the questions.
No Love is not subjective.
God is Love.

But, then most of what people think is love is not God.

Sorry I missed one of your posts.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 8th 2009, 06:14 AM
No Love is not subjective.
God is Love.

But, then most of what people think is love is not God.

Sorry I missed one of your posts.


Not a problem, it's posted below.

I think I see what you're saying...but I think you're saying it incorrectly because of a misunderstanding on what true reason is. I guess, read the post below and look at the questions and my explanation and see what you think.



What do you mean by "reason?" I ask because you, once again, used reasoning to make that statement.

You contradicted what I said, that breaks down to this:

(1) P
(2) Not P
(3) Therefore, not P

You're using logic in order to say I'm wrong - and there's no escaping it...


I fail to see why everyone falls for modernity on this. (this is for emphasis) - REASONING IS NOT FROM HUMANS. IT IS NOT OUR MAN-MADE ABILITY. IT IS NOT SOMETHING WE CREATED. IT WAS GIVEN TO US BY GOD.

With that said, our reasoning is fallen and is therefore in dire need of the Holy Spirit to regenerate it. However, even without the Holy Spirit, we have the ability to properly reason certain things, but only in a limited capacity.

Likewise, when we begin with ourselves in reasoning (which might be what you're arguing against, a Cartesian view of reason) then we will always end up with faulty conclusions. Reasoning that begins with God as the first premise, however, will generally end up with the correct conclusions.

And love without reason is the way to Hell. The two are inseparable.

I mean, how do you deal with the fact that the Bible calls for us to use this "cold" reasoning?

Before you progress in this thread, do you think the following scenarios are possible?

(1) You have a faulty understanding of what "reason" is?

(2) You have a faulty view on how reason and faith work together?

(3) That maybe you haven't really looked into this issue deeply enough before making a judgment on it?

(4) That you're condemning fellow Christians who's entire ministries are based on reaching out to intellects?

(5) That you're condemning anyone who engages in apologetics?

bagofseed
Apr 8th 2009, 06:28 AM
What do you mean by "reason?" I ask because you, once again, used reasoning to make that statement.

You contradicted what I said, that breaks down to this:

(1) P
(2) Not P
(3) Therefore, not P

You're using logic in order to say I'm wrong - and there's no escaping it...

Of course I am using logic reason, human capacity for understanding.
Again I am not negating reason, just saying that it is week.


I fail to see why everyone falls for modernity on this. (this is for emphasis) - REASONING IS NOT FROM HUMANS. IT IS NOT OUR MAN-MADE ABILITY. IT IS NOT SOMETHING WE CREATED. IT WAS GIVEN TO US BY GOD.


No argument there.


With that said, our reasoning is fallen and is therefore in dire need of the Holy Spirit to regenerate it. However, even without the Holy Spirit, we have the ability to properly reason certain things, but only in a limited capacity.


would limited capacity also be another way of saying weak?


Likewise, when we begin with ourselves in reasoning (which might be what you're arguing against, a Cartesian view of reason) then we will always end up with faulty conclusions. Reasoning that begins with God as the first premise, however, will generally end up with the correct conclusions.

Good.
But to have that proper reasoning it must be sourced on God and since the fall when we became like God we became sourced on our selves like God.
See where I am going.




And love without reason is the way to Hell. The two are inseparable.

I mean, how do you deal with the fact that the Bible calls for us to use this "cold" reasoning?

I don't agree on love and reason being inseparable, if that is what you meant.
Reason without love leading to hell clearly inseparable.
Again, I am not rejecting reason



Before you progress in this thread, do you think the following scenarios are possible?

(1) You have a faulty understanding of what "reason" is?

(2) You have a faulty view on how reason and faith work together?

(3) That maybe you haven't really looked into this issue deeply enough before making a judgment on it?

(4) That you're condemning fellow Christians who's entire ministries are based on reaching out to intellects?

(5) That you're condemning anyone who engages in apologetics?

Harsh judgmental questions don't you think?
But you are entitled to express your opinion.
Still I can hope for something more powerful.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 8th 2009, 06:58 AM
would limited capacity also be another way of saying weak?

Yes. But love without reason is likewise weak. The two need each other and both must have their source and focus on God to be of any value.


Good.
But to have that proper reasoning it must be sourced on God and since the fall when we became like God we became sourced on our selves like God.
See where I am going.

I do, but it's wrong.

Without God, we do start with ourselves in reasoning, which is why all beliefs outside of Christianity are unreasonable, they are illogical. They are either inconsistent within themselves or fail to correspond to reality. Either way, any belief that does not have God as the foundation is illogical.

Christianity, however, had God as the foundation point. Thus, our logic and reasoning also begin with Him as the foundation - this is why Christianity is the only reasonable/logical system out there.



I don't agree on love and reason being inseparable, if that is what you meant.
Reason without love leading to hell clearly inseparable.
Again, I am not rejecting reason

Love without reason is unguided to an unknown object coming from an unknown source. It's 100% subjective and worthless. There's a lot of people who think they love God that are going to Hell because they've been unreasonable in their beliefs about God.

Think of it this way - without reason and just love, you get a New Age type faith where God is love and all we need is love in order to get to God. Without love and just reason you get a cold faith that has no experience and that we can get ourselves to God, no thank you Jesus.

Both by themselves will always lead to heresy and vary rarely end in the salvation of the person. This is why both together, with God as the source, are needed.


Harsh judgmental questions don't you think?
But you are entitled to express your opinion.

How can questions be judgmental if they're not rhetorical? I was asking honest questions. It seems to me that you think even the idea of you being wrong on this is too abhorrent a thought.

You've also yet to define what you mean by "reason."

bagofseed
Apr 8th 2009, 07:45 AM
Yes. But love without reason is likewise weak. The two need each other and both must have their source and focus on God to be of any value.


Love is what enlightens reason.

Its not about a focus on God but rather being sourced from within one who is like God.
That is to say to the extent we are walking in His ways we can comprehend the truth of things.




I do, but it's wrong.

Without God, we do start with ourselves in reasoning, which is why all beliefs outside of Christianity are unreasonable, they are illogical. They are either inconsistent within themselves or fail to correspond to reality. Either way, any belief that does not have God as the foundation is illogical.


Yes.



Christianity, however, had God as the foundation point. Thus, our logic and reasoning also begin with Him as the foundation - this is why Christianity is the only reasonable/logical system out there.

Here is the rub.
Our logic and reasoning ends with him because He is our foundation, our life.



Love without reason is unguided to an unknown object coming from an unknown source. It's 100% subjective and worthless. There's a lot of people who think they love God that are going to Hell because they've been unreasonable in their beliefs about God.

Their is no real love without reason.
Just reason without love.
I believe real Love is what you might call eyes to see and ears to hear.


Think of it this way - without reason and just love, you get a New Age type faith where God is love and all we need is love in order to get to God. Without love and just reason you get a cold faith that has no experience and that we can get ourselves to God, no thank you Jesus.

Both by themselves will always lead to heresy and vary rarely end in the salvation of the person. This is why both together, with God as the source, are needed.

With God as the source, that is to say having the truth established (alive, living) in us our reason is enlightened so we might understand the work God has done in us.
But I believe that the truth being established is the Spirit of Love Himself as he pervades our being in the work of sanctification.

That right reason is a by product, a result of Love.




How can questions be judgmental if they're not rhetorical? I was asking honest questions. It seems to me that you think even the idea of you being wrong on this is too abhorrent a thought.

You've also yet to define what you mean by "reason."
Please you have never been asked an insulting question?
One that showed someones judgment towards you as being unintelligent or ill prepared to even speak on a topic?

I think my previous posts would define what I mean by reason.

I have enjoyed our chat, you ask good questions.
Time to rest now.
God keep you.

bagofseed
Apr 9th 2009, 10:25 AM
I wrote this elsewhere but I thought I would post it here

When the Holy Spirit actually reviles something to you, you know.
No argument can ever do that for you.

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