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LaurieF
Apr 8th 2009, 01:54 PM
What are the time frames that the jewish people had in order "To avoid ceremonial uncleanness"? by not entering the Roman palace. Would it be a day? a week?

Would the special sabbath be on the same day as the Passover?

Would it be impossible for Jesus to be crucified on the Passover or was it because of the special Sabbath due to Passover.

And what would be the rules for the whole week of passover or is Passover one day and the feast of unleavened bread is the rest.

Maybe someone could link in a site that is helpful in jewish customs.

Thanks

djh22
Apr 8th 2009, 10:49 PM
Hi Laurie,
You might find this helpful about Jewish customs -
http://www.holidays.net/passover/

or here -
http://www.askmoses.com/en/index.html

I hope this helps,
God bless.
djh22.

djh22
Apr 8th 2009, 11:04 PM
Would it be impossible for Jesus to be crucified on the Passover or was it because of the special Sabbath due to Passover.


The Friday view is based on the wording of Mark 15:42, which says that Christ's crucifixion occurred on the day of preparation, "the day before the Sabbath". Since the Hebrew Sabbath is on Saturday, the Church traditionally held that Jesus was crucified on Friday. However, Jesus prophesied that he would be dead for three days and three nights before his resurrection: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matthew 12:40). There are obviously not three days and three nights between Friday evening and Sunday morning.

The problem appears easily resolved by a clarification of what Mark meant by "sabbath". Along with the weekly Sabbath day, the Jews had other "sabbaths" throughout the year, marking high holy days. In Matthew 28:1, the Greek should be translated, "at the end of the sabbaths" - a plural word - noting that there had been more than one sabbath the previous week. The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread was also considered a "sabbath" (Lev. 23:6,7). This Feast is celebrated on Nisan 15, the day after the Passover (Lev. 23:5-6). Jesus was crucified on the Passover and Mark 15:42-43 notes that Joseph of Arimathea desired to take Christ's body down from the cross before the high sabbath began.

[Luke 22:1 and Matt 26:17 create confusion. Denotatively, the two Feasts are separate days. Connotatively, the entire period from Passover through the 7 days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is considered "Passover".]

If Passover, the 14th of Nisan, fell earlier in the week, the 15th could have been any day prior to Saturday, the weekly Sabbath. "When the sabbaths were past" would, of course, be Sunday (actually, Saturday after sundown), in accordance to the Feast of Firstfruits. (Some hold to a Thursday crucifixion on a similar basis.)

John 12:1 mentions that Jesus traveled to Bethany six days before the Passover. Hebrew days are reckoned from sundown to sundown, so that each "day" begins at sundown the evening before. These six evening-to-morning periods are important to our understanding of the fulfillment of Old Testament Feasts, particularly the Feasts of Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. We will track these days and see how they match the pattern set down for us in the book of Leviticus.

DAY ONE - FRIDAY - The 9th of Nisan
We know from Luke 19:1 and Mark 10:46 that Jesus was in Jericho prior to traveling to Bethany. Jesus would have had to be in Bethany before sundown on Friday, since at sundown the Sabbath would start, and long-distance travel was not permitted on the Sabbath.

DAY TWO - SATURDAY - The 10th of Nisan (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) -

"On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord." - John 12:12-13

This is Jesus' Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem, commemorated on Palm Sunday (in accordance with the Friday view, which put it 5 days before the crucifixion). However, it appears it occurred on a Saturday. Jesus went into the Temple and threw out the money changers shortly after this. He then taught daily in the Temple until the Passover (Luke 19:45-48, Mark 11:15-17).

His entry into Jerusalem on the 10th day of Nisan also corresponds with Exodus 12:3-6, in which a lamb was separated from the flock and put on display as the lamb destined to be sacrificed on Passover. On this day, Jesus was put on display as he proceeded from Bethany down the Mount of Olives toward Jerusalem. While the People welcomed Jesus as the Messiah, the King, his primary purpose at that time was to die, as he explains in John 12:23-33.

DAY THREE - SUNDAY -The 11th of Nisan (sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday) -

During this time, the "Lamb of God" was on public display in and around Jerusalem, teaching the people many things. Some of Jesus' most well-known parables and prophecies were made during these next several days.

DAY FOUR - MONDAY The 12th of Nisan - (sundown Sunday to sundown Monday)
A quiet day at Bethany - Matt 26:2-6 (spent in the house of Simon the Leper).

DAY FIVE - TUESDAY - The 13th of Nisan - (sundown Monday to sundown Tuesday) -

DAY SIX - WEDNESDAY The 14th of Nisan - (sundown Tuesday to sundown Wednesday) -

- The Last Supper took place at the Passover meal (Luke 22:15-20, John 13-17). Jesus offered his disciples the broken bread and the wine as representing his own body and blood. He washed their feet and taught them many last things before his death.
- He was arrested in the Garden after Judas' betrayal.
- After several trials, he was beaten and finally crucified on Wednesday afternoon.
- The preparations for burial were made before sundown (Mark 15:42-43).

Again I hope this helps,
God bless.
djh22

Emanate
Apr 8th 2009, 11:20 PM
I always prefer the biblical name of the month - Aviv.

djh22
Apr 8th 2009, 11:27 PM
My birthday was 12th of Nisan. :blush:

djh22.

watchinginawe
Apr 9th 2009, 03:48 AM
The problem appears easily resolved by a clarification of what Mark meant by "sabbath". Along with the weekly Sabbath day, the Jews had other "sabbaths" throughout the year, marking high holy days. In Matthew 28:1, the Greek should be translated, "at the end of the sabbaths" - a plural word - noting that there had been more than one sabbath the previous week. Can we take a look at why you propose that Matthew 28:1 should be translated "at the end of the sabbaths", as in sabbaths within a week and not plural for weeks or not meaning a sabbath day? Which Bible are you using for your translation?

If you could, please show us other uses of this translation for this word where the translation is "easily resolved".

Anyway, I am interested in this subject and I can't find other places anywhere for "sabiton" that refer to plural sabbaths within a week. It would seem that this might be the only such occurence if we allow the easy resolution. Which makes in my mind a hard reslolution.

Here is the one and only reference to sabbaths in the NASB translation:

Acts 17:2 And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Thus, for three weeks. The KJV, which never translates the word as "sabbaths", puts this above verse as:

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Thus, for three weeks.

Going back to translating it sabbaths, I find Matthew 28:1 translated "sabbaths" in the Green's and Young's literal translations and they treat the verse similarly. Lets go to the Young's Literal Translation which translates this "sabbaths":

Matthew 28:1 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

And now the Green's Literal Translation:

Matthew 28:1 But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave


:hmm: No wonder most people who use this as a proof verse for "two sabbaths" the week before the resurrection stop at "and on the eve of the sabbaths", and don't offer the rest of the verse when using Green's or Young's. You can see that "sabbaths" is used twice in the verse. Yes, they are the same word. Is the Gospel writer indicating that the next week was going to have more than one sabbath also?

One might paraphrase it to say: After the end of the seven day week, or alternatively, at the end of the last day of the week, as the first of the seven day week, or alternatively, as the first day of the week, began to dawn towards the day came Mary...

The King James Version:

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Anyway, is there a precedent anywhere else for using the greek word sabbaton as consecutive sabbaths as in a "high sabbath" followed by the "regular sabbath"? A plural of sabbaths within one week?

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Apr 9th 2009, 04:08 AM
The Friday view is based on the wording of Mark 15:42, which says that Christ's crucifixion occurred on the day of preparation, "the day before the Sabbath". Since the Hebrew Sabbath is on Saturday, the Church traditionally held that Jesus was crucified on Friday. Hello djh22. I wonder if you can show where the tradition which observes that the day Jesus died was "lost" and then later based only on a reading of Mark 15:42.

Justin Martyr, in his "First Apology" which was written approximately 150 AD (about 120 years after the death of Christ) writes (from http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm ):


But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.There is no appeal to the scriptures in the above for setting the days. This was a lasting tradition of the early Church based on the actual events. When we read Mark 15:42 and many other verses on the matter, we are left with little reason to doubt what was already practiced in the early Church.

God Bless!

LaurieF
Apr 9th 2009, 12:34 PM
DAY SIX - WEDNESDAYThe 14th of Nisan - (sundown Tuesday to sundown Wednesday) -

- The Last Supper took place at the Passover meal (Luke 22:15-20, John 13-17). Jesus offered his disciples the broken bread and the wine as representing his own body and blood. He washed their feet and taught them many last things before his death.
- He was arrested in the Garden after Judas' betrayal.
- After several trials, he was beaten and finally crucified on Wednesday afternoon.
- The preparations for burial were made before sundown (Mark 15:42-43).

djh22

This I can follow....but what I have not been able to understand is how at Jesus' trial with Pilate (after His Passover meal), Caiaphas "early in the morning" wanted to avoid uncleannes so didn't go into the palace so they could eat his Passover.

I have read a few things on Jesus being on a different calender than the other Jews but nothing biblical to substantiate it. At this point I either find the scripture that defines this seemingly second Passover or I just quit studying this out :B

djh22
Apr 9th 2009, 06:09 PM
According to the Law of Moses, the day following Passover (which is also the first day of the feast of unleavened bread) is also, always a Sabbath day of rest to be observed like the 7th day weekly Sabbath no matter what day of the week it falls on. (See Leviticus 23:4-8, and take special notice of John 19:31 again.
Leviticus
23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
23:8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
John
19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

djh22.

keck553
Apr 9th 2009, 06:33 PM
My birthday was 12th of Nisan. :blush:

djh22.

5 Iyyar, 5716 (just after sunset on 4 Iyyar)

keck553
Apr 9th 2009, 06:47 PM
This I can follow....but what I have not been able to understand is how at Jesus' trial with Pilate (after His Passover meal), Caiaphas "early in the morning" wanted to avoid uncleannes so didn't go into the palace so they could eat his Passover.

I have read a few things on Jesus being on a different calender than the other Jews but nothing biblical to substantiate it. At this point I either find the scripture that defines this seemingly second Passover or I just quit studying this out :B

A couple things here. First of all executions were not allowed on Shabbats, and that would include the Pesach Shabbat. Also, the Sanhedron was prohibited to commence on a Pesach Shabbat.

The reality is the Romans could care less about Shabbat. And the Sanhedron had no qualms with profaning Torah or their own rules when convenient for them; in fact they did it so early in the morning, it was obvious they were hiding something.

djh22
Apr 9th 2009, 09:06 PM
5 Iyyar, 5716 (just after sunset on 4 Iyyar)

Ahh quite close then, except the year, sadly I am 9 years older,Lol.

God bless,
djh22.

LaurieF
Apr 9th 2009, 09:17 PM
I must be totally confusing something here. I'm not saying a second Sabbath I get that......I'm saying a second Passover.

How did Jesus eat His Passover meal before the priests and everyone else.

Mark, Matthew and John give accounts of preparing and eating Passover with Jesus and then all the events of the day leading up to Jesus standing before Pilate occurred. And all state that after all this occurred it was daybreak, or very early in the morning, and then John 18 states

"the Jews lead Jesus from Caiphas to the palace of the Roman govenor. By now is was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover

djh22
Apr 9th 2009, 10:03 PM
I have heard this before.
I think it might be confused with The feast of The firstfruits which is a part of the Passover celebrations - Leviticus 23:10-11.

But then I also thought that this coincided with The Resurrection - 1 Corinthians 15:20 .

There's also the hypothesis that the key is in the meaning of the phrase "Preparation of the Passover," and this will be dependent on the meaning of "Preparation" and the meaning of "Passover."

It may be that John had in mind the lunchtime meal known as the chagigah, celebrated during midday after the first evening of Passover.

I must apologise for any confusion, I have the Flu at the moment and my brain is a total fuzz.

Best.
djh22

iWrecknSow
Apr 10th 2009, 02:46 AM
Hi all


MATT.12 [39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and THERE SHALL NO SIGN BE GIVEN to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:[40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.

The above scripture says as Jonas was 3 days and 3 nights in the whales belly, and so shall Jesus be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Does good Friday afternoon till (easter) Sunday morning equal 3 days and 3 nights? No it does not.

MARK 16 [1] And WHEN THE SABBATH WAS PAST, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

These women bought sweet spices AFTER the sabbath was past.

LUKE 23 [56] And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND RESTED THE SABBATH DAY according to the commandment.

These same women prepared spices and then rested the sabbath day, according to the commandment (Gods 4th commandment) How could these women prepare spices and rest the sabbath if they didnt buy spices till after the sabbath had past? There had to be two sabbath days that week.

JOHN 19 [14] And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King![15] But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him.

JOHN 19[31] The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (FOR THAT SABBATH DAY WAS AN HIGH DAY,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

These 2 scriptures from John are proof that the first of these sabbaths was the high sabbath. There is a sabbath on the 1st day of the feast of unleavened bread.

LEVITICUS 23 [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. [7] In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

After the passover, in the 1st day of unleavened bread, there is a high sabbath day. No one saw the Lord rise. When they discovered He had risen, it was Sunday (the 1st day of the week) but no one was present when He rose from the dead. If you believe the sign of Jonas and the scripture from Matt.12 you must believe He rose on a late sabbath afternoon 3 days and 3 nights after Jesus was placed in the heart of the earth. He was placed in tomb before sundown as at sundown began the sabbath as stated in John 19[31].

MARK 8 [31] And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and AFTER THREE DAYS rise again.

LaurieF
Apr 10th 2009, 03:13 AM
I just got done reading an interesting commentary from the "Narrated Bible in Chronological Order" that gives another interesting perspective on my confusion of Jesus eating the passover meal before the rest of the Jewish people.

It first of all gives a narrative on the chronology related to the last supper, crucifixion, and resurrection and basically discusses the raised questions of a Friday death and burial and goes onto, well...I will quote the rest...

"The resolution of both questions appears to be found in recognizing that the last supper took place on Wed evening, followed by the crucifixion and burial on Thurs. Acceptance of that assumption requires an understanding of the Passover, the Feast of Unleavened bread, and the way in which the Jews record time. As for the reconking of time, the Jewish day begins at sunset on the previous evening. This means, for example, that our Wed night is actually Thurs, and our Thurs night is actually Friday......

(it goes on to more we already have established)

.....With that background the picture begins to come clear. Matt, Mark, and Luke record the disciples' preparation for the passover on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. That would place their preparations, then, at the beginning of the 14th day, which, of course, begins on the evening of the 13th day...Therefore it appears that the disciples assume they are preparing the upper room primarily for the special paschal meal which they expect to share with Jesus the following evening, and they apparentlly do not contemplate that the regular meal on the first night will in fact be their "last supper" with Jesus.

Although generally referring to the occasion as a part of the Passover celebration, Jesus seems to explain why it is important for him to eat with them on the night before the actual Passover meal. As will be seen, Jesus' words are" I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." In referring to his suffering, Jesus is obviously anticipating that his own sacrificial death will take place later that day, preventing him from participating in the acutal Passover supper.

John's account eliminates any doubt that this supper occurred prior to the actual Passover meal......when the Jews who have obtained Jesus' arrest will not enter the palace for fear that they will be ceremonially unclean and there fore unable to eat the Passover. Most convincing is the fact that the day of Jesus' crucufixion is plainly stated to be "the day of Preparation of Passover Week"

Since I don't see any elaboration on the meal being the Passover meal, or any of the traditional passover ritual, or even lamb being mentioned I have to take this into consideration.

Thoughts???

watchinginawe
Apr 10th 2009, 03:43 PM
Hello Laurie. I spent most of the night studying through this topic. By the time the sun was about to rise, I had a "post of posts" of my thoughts on many isses regarding this. :lol: And then I hit preview and the database was down and I lost several hours of my post. :( It has been a long while since that has happened to me. But it wasn't a loss, I enjoyed looking at this.

So thank you for offering this as a study subject. For me, my study concludes that there aren't any easy resolutions to the matter. Like the three days and three nights passage in Matthew, I have decided not to "force" a particular reconciliation but rather to trust the scriptures and let them speak on the matter. For now, though I am fluid since I would be willing to change my mind, I believe the scriptures indicate a Good Friday crucifixion of our Lord and Saviour and that our Lord and Saviour did eat the passover at the beginning of His Good Friday passion; and at the same time as the rest of the Jews.

I am following this post with what I started with last night as my objection to what the commentator offered in your post.

God Bless!

djh22
Apr 10th 2009, 04:20 PM
So thank you for offering this as a study subject. For me, my study concludes that there aren't any easy resolutions to the matter. Like the three days and three nights passage in Matthew, I have decided not to "force" a particular reconciliation but rather to trust the scriptures and let them speak on the matter. For now, though I am fluid since I would be willing to change my mind, I believe the scriptures indicate a Good Friday crucifixion of our Lord and Saviour and that our Lord and Saviour did eat the passover at the beginning of His Good Friday passion; and at the same time as the rest of the Jews.
I agree and whatever the day,date or time was is all academic anyway.

God bless,
djh22.

LaurieF
Apr 10th 2009, 06:13 PM
Thanks everyone, I feel the same as you awe, I just have to accept the truth as best I can intrepret it from scripture. But I lean more toward the understanding of a Thursday crucifixion but I am still lead to study out the 3 days and 3 nights thing if thats literal or what.

Well I won't be able to check back in as I will be going out of town in the next hour. I'll try to get access to a computer at least once while I'm gone.

Bye bye

Laurief

watchinginawe
Apr 10th 2009, 06:53 PM
John's account eliminates any doubt that this supper occurred prior to the actual Passover meal......when the Jews who have obtained Jesus' arrest will not enter the palace for fear that they will be ceremonially unclean and there fore unable to eat the Passover. Most convincing is the fact that the day of Jesus' crucufixion is plainly stated to be "the day of Preparation of Passover Week"


My first thoughts about the whole last supper is that they only mention bread and wine at the table, so this seems very logical to me.

Thoughts???Though the writer says it ought to eliminate any doubt that Jesus didn't eat the pasover, it doesn't for me.

The writer places hope in that Jesus was crucified before he could eat the passover and that the day before the last supper was NOT the day of unleavened bread. Thus, and this is popularly stated by many, it is said that Jesus was killed on the first day of unleavened bread, and thus killed with the lambs of the passover. For the lambs were then customarily killed on the fourteenth day and eaten that evening on the beginning of the fifteenth day. (6:00 pm separating the fourteenth and fifteenth days.)

We have the exact day set in Matthew, Mark and Luke of the last supper. Consider the following and see if the Gospels suggest that THE NEXT day would be the first day of unleavened bread:

Matthew 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.


Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.

14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.

16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.



Luke 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?

10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.

11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.

13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.


Now the author you quoted suggests that all of the above is reconciled by assuming that there was NO PREPARATION except of finding the location where THE NEXT DAY they would prepare the passover and THE NEXT NIGHT they would eat the passover.


With that background the picture begins to come clear. Matt, Mark, and Luke record the disciples' preparation for the passover on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. That would place their preparations, then, at the beginning of the 14th day, which, of course, begins on the evening of the 13th day
The thirteenth day: The day before the first day of unleavened bread.

The fourteenth day: The fourteenth day was the day in which the passover is prepared and the lambs sacrificed, for purposes of discussion, lets assume at 3:00 pm in the afternoon.

Then would come 6:00 pm and thus the fifteenth day: The passoverJesus has the last supper with His disciples, is later betrayed, then tried, crucified, and buired.

So this author suggests that the disciples are enquiring of Jesus on the fourteenth day, probably just after 6:00pm. Thus, they think the follwoing afternoon will be when the passover is prepared. However, their plans are interupted by the betrayal and thus they never are able to prepare the passover.

Read the Gospel accounts above and see if the disciples prepare the passover or not. It is clear that they do.

Additionally, the Lord says He is going to eat the passover, was He wrong?

To me, I find no no depreciation in believing that Jesus ate the passover dinner and used the occasion to institute the ordinance of Communion. It is very fitting that it would be that dinner, BEFORE DELIVERANCE (in Egypt), foretelling of what will happen to speak of the New Testament to come.

Lastly, we have this account in Luke regarding that evening after Jesus' burial:

Luke 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

There is no mention of the women eathing the passover. There is mention of them observing the sabbath though. So they were devout regarding observances, but we see here they observed the sabbath. :hmm: I'm not even sure you can eat the passover on the sabbath. I have read how that the passover was moved because of this. Anyway, for the evening of Jesus' burial, it is not mentioned that these were eating the passover.


The views most predominate are that:

Jesus did not eat the passover (view stated by the quoted commentator)
Jesus did eat the passover but at a different time than the rest of the Jews. This one may be worthy of more examination. (next year?)

Some suggest that Jesus observed the Passover as Moses commanded and not as had become customary, thus He prepared and ate one day in advance of the rest of the Jews
Or that Jesus ate according to the law, and the rest had moved the passover for convenience regarding the sabbath (there is tradition regarding this, but I am not convinced)
Or that all the Jews could eat anytime between 6:00 pm (like Jesus) and 24 hours later. It is suggested that the number of lambs were to many to kill all at once, so the Jews spread out the eating of the passover over a 24 hour span, thus "between the suns"

Jesus and the Jews ate the passover at the same time. I don't see anywhere in scripture to indicate that Jesus was observing a different time than others, so this opinion is where I am at on the subject.

This view requires for the reference to "eating the passover" in John 18 to be in reference to something other than the paschal supper
The day after eating the paschal supper was the first day of the feast and required sacrificing and eating the "chagigah", with joy
The word "passover" can mean 4 things. Therefore the referreral to the passover in John 18 is in regard to number 4. Here is the strongs 3957 definition for the word:


the paschal sacrifice (which was accustomed to be offered for the people's deliverance of old from Egypt)
the paschal lamb, i.e. the lamb the Israelites were accustomed to slay and eat on the fourteenth day of the month of Nisan (the first month of their year) in memory of the day on which their fathers, preparing to depart from Egypt, were bidden by God to slay and eat a lamb, and to sprinkle their door posts with its blood, that the destroying angel, seeing the blood, might pass over their dwellings; Christ crucified is likened to the slain paschal lamb
the paschal supper
the paschal feast, the feast of the Passover, extending from the 14th to the 20th day of the month Nisan
God Bless!

djh22
Apr 10th 2009, 08:51 PM
Just another point to ponder
Jesus being the firstborn male would have been obliged to observe The Fast of the firstborn (Ta'anit Bechorim or Taanit Bechorot) . This is a minor fast observed by firstborn males (firstborn to either mother or father) on the day before Passover , unless that is a Shabbat, in which case it is observed on Nisan 13.
So it's doubtful that Jesus that Jesus ate the Passover meal one day in advance.



God bless,
djh22.

Emanate
Apr 10th 2009, 09:01 PM
Just another point to ponder
Jesus being the firstborn male would have been obliged to observe The Fast of the firstborn (Ta'anit Bechorim or Taanit Bechorot) . This is a minor fast observed by firstborn males (firstborn to either mother or father) on the day before Passover , unless that is a Shabbat, in which case it is observed on Nisan 13.
So it's doubtful that Jesus that Jesus ate the Passover meal one day in advance.



Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

djh22
Apr 10th 2009, 09:48 PM
Than Emanate,
Yes, that's another point to ponder.

What are your thoughts ?

djh22.

iWrecknSow
Apr 11th 2009, 03:30 AM
Thanks everyone, I feel the same as you awe, I just have to accept the truth as best I can intrepret it from scripture. But I lean more toward the understanding of a Thursday crucifixion but I am still lead to study out the 3 days and 3 nights thing if thats literal or what.

Well I won't be able to check back in as I will be going out of town in the next hour. I'll try to get access to a computer at least once while I'm gone.

Bye bye

Laurief

Hey Laurief
It was Jesus who said it would be 3 days and 3 nights.

JOHN 11 [9] Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.[10] But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

If you look youll find they cant even get parts of 3 days in there.

djh22
Apr 11th 2009, 12:20 PM
The definition of day and night is given in Genesis -

1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.


A good explanation is given in "After Three Days" by Richard T Ritenbaugh


Gbwy.
djh22.

Ta-An
Apr 11th 2009, 01:08 PM
If we believe that Jesus is the LAMB slain for us, then maybe He had not eaten the Passover meal yet, as He was to be slain at the same time as the sacrificial lamb :)
And what they ate was the first communion :) on that Thursday evening

djh22
Apr 13th 2009, 01:53 PM
Still thinking about this question and I began to wonder if Yeshua actually rose on a Sunday , so I did some research and found this that provides a theory on both the crucifixion and resurrection days.

" Let's see what the scriptures teach us as we look at an example in the life of Christ. The Scripture says, "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered (Matthew 4:2)." Jesus fasted forty days and forty nights. If we say, as some do, that "three days and three nights" does not mean "three days and three nights", then we must also say that "forty days and forty nights" does not mean "forty days and forty nights." Where do we stop? Do we say that we really can't be sure about anything? Of course not! We believe the Bible to be literal.

Part of the confusion has come from verses like John 19:31. This verse says, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath day (for that Sabbath day was an high day), besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." The Sabbath in John 19:31 is not the regular Saturday Sabbath. It was the Passover Sabbath, which occurred on Thursday of the crucifixion week. Note that John 19:31 says, "For that Sabbath day was an high day." If it were talking of the Saturday Sabbath, then Christ would have been crucified on Friday. All the feast days God gave to Israel were considered Sabbaths though they did not fall on Saturday. Jesus was crucified on the preparation (Wednesday) of the Sabbath (Passover Sabbath) which was Thursday.

Now at what time of the day did Jesus die? It was around three in the afternoon on Wednesday. "And it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: And having said thus, he gave up the ghost (Luke 23:44-46)." When it says the ninth hour, it means the ninth hour since the break of day. In other words, it was three o'clock in the afternoon. Jesus was taken away from the cross and hurriedly buried the same afternoon before sundown or 6:00 p.m.

Now remember that the Jewish day always begins at sundown or at about 6.00 p.m. Our day begins at midnight, but the Jewish day began at sunset. In Leviticus 23:32, the Lord said, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbath."

If you count 72 hours from late Wednesday afternoon at around 6:00 p.m., then Jesus would have been in the tomb until late Saturday evening at about 6:00 p.m.

So, a Sunday morning resurrection is not what the Bible teaches. We believe that Jesus was resurrected on Saturday evening at about 6:00 p.m. Jesus was placed in the tomb at around 6:00 p.m. on Wednesday. Seventy-two hours later would be at around 6:00 p.m. on Saturday, exactly when the first day began (Sunday). Even at this hour the Jewish Sunday night begins at Saturday night at 6:00 p.m.

When the women arrived at the tomb early Sunday morning, Jesus was already gone. The Gospel is summed up in I Corinthians 15:3-4, "...Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures." Those who arrived early Sunday morning simply discovered an empty tomb. The angel said, "He is not here, for He is risen (Luke 24:6)." So the discovery occurred in the morning. Not the resurrection.

One objection to a Wednesday crucifixion is found in Luke 24:21, which says, "But we trusted that it had been He which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done." This conversation takes place on Sunday, the day of resurrection. The answer is found in the word "since." Counting from this verse, Sunday is the third day, Saturday the second day, Friday is the first day SINCE the Passover. The Thursday Passover (Jewish reckoning) had its night on what we would call Wednesday night and twilight of that night, meaning between 3:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m., is when Christ was crucified. The twilight of Thursday afternoon would have counted as the twilight of Friday night, which began at 6:00 p.m. by Jewish reckoning. So we see there is no conflict. "

Dr. Hank Lindstrom.

God bless
djh22

watchinginawe
Apr 14th 2009, 04:33 AM
So, a Sunday morning resurrection is not what the Bible teaches. We believe that Jesus was resurrected on Saturday evening at about 6:00 p.m. Jesus was placed in the tomb at around 6:00 p.m. on Wednesday. Seventy-two hours later would be at around 6:00 p.m. on Saturday, exactly when the first day began (Sunday). Even at this hour the Jewish Sunday night begins at Saturday night at 6:00 p.m.
Hello djh22. Dr. Lindstrom suggest that the Bible doesn't teach a Sunday morning resurrection. However, none of the narratives in the Gospels suggest anything other than a Sunday morning resurrection. Do you know of some scripture that "teaches" us that Jesus was resurrected on the sabbath? :confused :dunno:

Dr. Lindstrom uses the 72 hour reckoning of Jesus' entombment. I think that is the purest form of those who insist "3 days and 3 nights". Now the problem with a 72 hour reckoning is that we know fairly precisely when Jesus died and was buried. If that was on a Thursday, then Jesus could not have risen until sometime Sunday afternoon if He must remain in the tomb for 72 hours. So, the day for a 72 hour reckoning is placed back to Wednesday to allow for at least "3 days and 3 nights". When we allow for exactly 72 hours, then Jesus must have risen on the sabbath.

But the scripture doesn't indicate that at all. Not even a hint anywhere that I am aware of. Although Dr. Lindstrom claims that is what the Bible teaches.

One of the things that I find interesting about postulations like Dr. Lindstrom's is that they can go into much detail about how day is 12 hours and night is 12 hours and thus 3 days and 3 nights must have been exactly 72 hours, so therefore we know when Jesus must have risen from the dead, it was 72 hours after burial.

But then they come up with something like this:
One objection to a Wednesday crucifixion is found in Luke 24:21, which says, "But we trusted that it had been He which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done." This conversation takes place on Sunday, the day of resurrection. The answer is found in the word "since." Counting from this verse, Sunday is the third day, Saturday the second day, Friday is the first day SINCE the Passover. The Thursday Passover (Jewish reckoning) had its night on what we would call Wednesday night and twilight of that night, meaning between 3:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m., is when Christ was crucified. The twilight of Thursday afternoon would have counted as the twilight of Friday night, which began at 6:00 p.m. by Jewish reckoning. So we see there is no conflict. "
What happened to the 72 hour rule? :dunno:

Luke 24:28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.

29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

For convenience sake, let us assume that the time is 3:00 pm on Sunday when this is said, Jesus being with the two on the road to Emmaus. Jesus was dead on the cross at 3:00 pm, on Wednesday according to Lindstrom.

Luke 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

Now I believe that the third day would indicate a Friday crucifixion, and a Sunday resurrection, and thus "on the third day", and "today is the third day since". I have already offered scripture for that reckoning.

However, for Dr. Lindstrom's reconciliation, we will give the largest benefit of the doubt to what the "third day" could possibly be. However, we see in the above that the reckoning of the two telling Jesus of the events says that it is the third day since His crucifixion. So we have:

Sunday 3:00 pm back to Saturday 3:00 pm: "The first day since these things were done"

Satuday 3:00 pm back to Friday 3:00 pm: "The second day since these things were done"

Friday 3:00 pm back to Thursday 3:00 pm: "The third day since these things were done"

Thursday 3:00 pm back to Wednesday 3:00 pm: "The fourth day since these things were done"

After Dr. Lindstrom insists on a strict reckoning of 3 days as 72 hours, somehow he stretches over 96 hours as "the third day since these things were done".

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Apr 14th 2009, 05:25 AM
The Sabbath in John 19:31 is not the regular Saturday Sabbath. It was the Passover Sabbath, which occurred on Thursday of the crucifixion week. Note that John 19:31 says, "For that Sabbath day was an high day." If it were talking of the Saturday Sabbath, then Christ would have been crucified on Friday. All the feast days God gave to Israel were considered Sabbaths though they did not fall on Saturday. Jesus was crucified on the preparation (Wednesday) of the Sabbath (Passover Sabbath) which was Thursday.

Another problem with the 72 hour reckoning is what the women did on Friday. According to Dr. Lindstrom, we have:
Wednesday: Day of preparation, the day of Jesus' death and burial by Joseph of Arimathaea
Thursday: A mid-week sabbath
Friday: Day of preparation for the regular sabbath
Saturday: The sabbath
Sunday: The first day of the week
Let's see how that works with the narrative of events given by Luke in his Gospel. I have color coded according to the above key:

Luke 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:

51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them; ) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.

52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.

53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments;and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 23:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

As can be seen, there are two full days unnacounted for in the above. The women could have gone back to the sepulchre on Friday and would have been eager to do so. Also, the sabbath that the women observed acccording to the commandment appears to be the seventh day sabbath, "according to the commandment".

So for me, I don't see how the days can possibly be stretched to allow for a Wednesday crucifixion.

God Bless!

iWrecknSow
Apr 17th 2009, 11:12 PM
LEVITICUS 23 [1]And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. [3] Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. [4] These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. [7] IN THE FIRST DAY YE SHALL HAVE AN HOLY CONVOCATION: YE SHALL DO NO SERVILE WORK THEREIN. [8] But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

JOHN 19 [14] And it was THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King![15] But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him.

JOHN 19[31] The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (FOR THAT SABBATH DAY WAS AN HIGH DAY,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Keep in mind that jewish days begin at sundown. They still do to this day. You can see that the sabbath thats spoken of in John was a high sabbath day and not the weelky sabbath.

NUMBER ONE Wednesday evening before sundown Jesus was placed in the tomb. Jesus was placed in the tomb just before the 1st day of the feast of unleavened bread which is a high sabbath day as explained in John 19 verse 31. The 1st day and night Jesus was in the tomb was the (high sabbath day).

NUMBER TWO Thursday evening till friday evening. Night and day no.2. This day, AFTER the sabbath had passed (Mark 16 verse 1) the girls went shopping, returned home and prepared the spices.

MARK 16 [1] And WHEN THE SABBATH WAS PAST, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

LUKE 23 [56] And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND RESTED THE SABBATH DAY according to the commandment.

NUMBER THREE- Day and night no.3 was, as the Word states in Luke 23, the weekly sabbath day according to the 4th commandment. It was after the WEEKLY sabbath day that they went to the tomb (on the 1st day of the week) and found that Jesus HAD risen.

I really cant find any holes in these scriptures. If you can please show me.

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