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manichunter
Apr 9th 2009, 09:42 PM
Is the love a believer required to share and act upon towards God and others a relative thing? It is up to the believer to make self determined and non delegated acts of love?


I believe righteous and benelovent love is not relative, but define and definite in its principles and purpose. Love is defined by God. In other words God has not left it to anyone else to say what true love is.


One thing most conservative christian say is that the world has gone relative. Meaning that everyone is living by what is right in their own eyes. Is this how we should love. Everyone loving as they see by their own eyes. I say no. God has defined love by all of the inspired Scripture he gave for our profit and prosperity.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 9th 2009, 10:15 PM
I agree with you, there has to be a foundation for it.

I remember hearing a woman justify divorcing her husband because she was "in love" with her "lover." She kept saying how she can't help who she falls in love with, that love is about passion, etc. It's absurd.

Love has boundaries, which is what makes it recognizable as love.

manichunter
Apr 9th 2009, 10:21 PM
I agree with you, there has to be a foundation for it.

I remember hearing a woman justify divorcing her husband because she was "in love" with her "lover." She kept saying how she can't help who she falls in love with, that love is about passion, etc. It's absurd.

Love has boundaries, which is what makes it recognizable as love.

This is the jest of my message, that love boundaries are in the Bible, not just the NT where they are reinforced, but the foundation of love is in the OT.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 9th 2009, 10:22 PM
This is the jest of my message, that love boundaries are in the Bible, not just the NT where they are reinforced, but the foundation of love is in the OT.


Oh absolutely. That's a foreign concept to the modern ear. Love is supposed to be free, not in bonds. Yet, God makes it quite clear that we must do certain things in order to show love.

It seems that love is supposed to be self-sacrificial - anything other than that isn't love.

crossnote
Apr 10th 2009, 06:50 AM
I agree with you, there has to be a foundation for it.

I remember hearing a woman justify divorcing her husband because she was "in love" with her "lover." She kept saying how she can't help who she falls in love with, that love is about passion, etc. It's absurd.

Love has boundaries, which is what makes it recognizable as love.

That must make her lover 'feel' very secure.:eek:

bagofseed
Apr 10th 2009, 07:48 AM
Is the love a believer required to share and act upon towards God and others a relative thing? It is up to the believer to make self determined and non delegated acts of love?


I believe righteous and benelovent love is not relative, but define and definite in its principles and purpose. Love is defined by God. In other words God has not left it to anyone else to say what true love is.


One thing most conservative christian say is that the world has gone relative. Meaning that everyone is living by what is right in their own eyes. Is this how we should love. Everyone loving as they see by their own eyes. I say no. God has defined love by all of the inspired Scripture he gave for our profit and prosperity.
Love is of God and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God.

I would say, what real love is relative to, is not the letter on the page but rather the life of Jesus being in us and living through us.

manichunter
Apr 10th 2009, 02:12 PM
Love is of God and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God.

I would say, what real love is relative to, is not the letter on the page but rather the life of Jesus being in us and living through us.


so who should make the decisions........... when we act in love. does this happen often.

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2009, 06:35 PM
Is the love a believer required to share and act upon towards God and others a relative thing? It is up to the believer to make self determined and non delegated acts of love?


I believe righteous and benelovent love is not relative, but define and definite in its principles and purpose. Love is defined by God. In other words God has not left it to anyone else to say what true love is.


One thing most conservative christian say is that the world has gone relative. Meaning that everyone is living by what is right in their own eyes. Is this how we should love. Everyone loving as they see by their own eyes. I say no. God has defined love by all of the inspired Scripture he gave for our profit and prosperity.

This is what has been defined;

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 08:17 PM
This is what has been defined;

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Those are Torah commands. Are we bound to them or not?

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2009, 09:47 PM
Those are Torah commands. Are we bound to them or not?

They are in the Torah, and as it is written if we love one another we shall not do those things to one another, henceforth love worketh no ill to his brother and love therefore fulfills the law.

Do not forget this important note;

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

What therefore is not covered by the love we have been commanded to have for one another?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 10th 2009, 11:09 PM
They are in the Torah, and as it is written if we love one another we shall not do those things to one another, henceforth love worketh no ill to his brother and love therefore fulfills the law.

Do not forget this important note;

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

What therefore is not covered by the love we have been commanded to have for one another?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


This is the absent and ignored phrase in the sentence. There are other commands that apply beyond the ones listed, especially number four which was never revocked or repealed. In order for a law to cease being a law it has to repealed, right.

bagofseed
Apr 11th 2009, 01:35 AM
This is the absent and ignored phrase in the sentence. There are other commands that apply beyond the ones listed, especially number four which was never revocked or repealed. In order for a law to cease being a law it has to repealed, right.
Or Superseded.
What supersedes the law, but the Lord of it.

manichunter
Apr 11th 2009, 06:03 AM
Or Superseded.
What supersedes the law, but the Lord of it.

The Lord cannot supersede His WORD. He said that He would pass away before His WORD, and we both no He is not going anywhere.

bagofseed
Apr 11th 2009, 06:59 AM
The Lord cannot supersede His WORD. He said that He would pass away before His WORD, and we both no He is not going anywhere.
What?
You don't understand, and your statement is not accurate.
First I was talking about the law not the Word of God.
The law is a covenant or promise that said if you do these things you will be acceptable.

Did you mean:
Mat (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Mat&chapter=5#18) 5:18 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place

When something supersedes something else it is because it is greater.
We now have a greater promise secured by a much greater sacrifice then the blood of bulls and rams.

2Co (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=2Co&chapter=3#10) 3:10 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=2Co&chapter=3&verse=10)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
For indeed, what had been glorious now has no glory because of the tremendously greater glory of what replaced it.
Heb (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Heb&chapter=7#22) 7:22 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Heb&chapter=7&verse=22)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
accordingly Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

bagofseed
Apr 11th 2009, 07:10 AM
Hebrews 7:11-28 11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, `YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ' "); 22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

manichunter
Apr 11th 2009, 07:39 AM
What?


Are you saying torah is not Scripture, Scripture is not His Word, and all of His Word is not God Breathed. Scripture is Scripture from IN the beginning to Come Lord Quickly. It is all inspired by Him as His Word.

Matt 24 32 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:32&sr=1&t=nas) "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:33&sr=1&t=nas) so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize F531 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F531) that He F532 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F532) is near, right at R908 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R908) the door. F533 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F533) 34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:34&sr=1&t=nas) "Truly I say to you, this R909 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R909) generation F534 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F534) will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:35&sr=1&t=nas) "Heaven R910 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R910) and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Lu 21: (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:33&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -29 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:29&sr=1&t=nas) Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:30&sr=1&t=nas) as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know R896 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R896) for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:31&sr=1&t=nas) "So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize F470 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F470) that the R897 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R897) kingdom of God is near. 32 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:32&sr=1&t=nas) "Truly I say to you, this generation F471 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F471) will not pass away until all things take place. 33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:33&sr=1&t=nas) "Heaven R898 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R898) and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Yes is does coincide with the passage you gave and give witness to it.

What has been spoken from the mouth of God is just as eternal as Him.

Where does God word come from, where does his commandments come from, and where does his instructions/torah come from.
Mt 4:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+4:4&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 2Ti 3:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+3:16&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Even your words and thoughts are eternal (scary uh)
Mt 12:36 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+12:36&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

It is funny how we chop up the text in the Bible to say that some of it is not eternal and God breathed, or somehow torah is not Scripture and considered equally the Word of God.
1Ch 15:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1ch+15:15&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - The sons of the Levites carried the ark of God on their shoulders with the poles thereon, as Moses had commanded according to the word of the LORD. Isa 2:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+2:3&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Mic 4:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mic+4:2&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. It sounds like torah is Scripture, hence His word from His very own mouth. Heaven and earth is not going away until the King of King reigns in His kingdom in the new heaven and earth.

Exodus 201 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:1&sr=1&t=nas) Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:2&sr=1&t=nas) "I R666 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R666) am the LORD your God, who R667 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R667) brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. F402 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F402)
3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:3&sr=1&t=nas) "You R668 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R668) shall have no other gods R669 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R669) before F403 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F403) Me.
4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:4&sr=1&t=nas) "You R670 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R670) shall not make for yourself an F404 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F404) idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:5&sr=1&t=nas) "You R671 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R671) shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous R672 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R672) God, visiting R673 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R673) the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:6&sr=1&t=nas) but showing lovingkindness to thousands, R674 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R674) to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:7&sr=1&t=nas) "You R675 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R675) shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave F405 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F405) him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:8&sr=1&t=nas) "Remember the R676 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R676) sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:9&sr=1&t=nas) "Six R677 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R677) days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:10&sr=1&t=nas) but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you R678 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R678) shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays F406 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F406) with you. 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:11&sr=1&t=nas) "For R679 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R679) in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:12&sr=1&t=nas) "Honor R680 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R680) your father and your mother, that your days R681 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R681) may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:13&sr=1&t=nas) "You R682 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R682) shall not murder.
14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:14&sr=1&t=nas) "You R683 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R683) shall not commit adultery.
15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:15&sr=1&t=nas) "You R684 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R684) shall not steal.
16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:16&sr=1&t=nas) "You R685 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R685) shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. R686 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R686)
17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:17&sr=1&t=nas) "You R687 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R687) shall not covet your neighbor's house; you R688 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R688) shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:18&sr=1&t=nas) All R689 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R689) the people perceived the thunder F407 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F407) and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:19&sr=1&t=nas) Then R690 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R690) they said to Moses, "Speak to F408 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F408) us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to F408 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F408) us, or we will die." 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:20&sr=1&t=nas) Moses said to the people, "Do R691 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R691) not be afraid; for God has come in order to R692 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R692) test you, and in order that the R693 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R693) fear of Him may remain F409 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F409) with you, so that you may not sin." 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:21&sr=1&t=nas) So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the R694 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R694) thick cloud where God was.
22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:22&sr=1&t=nas) Then the LORD said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, `You yourselves have seen that I R695 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R695) have spoken to F410 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F410) you from heaven.


God speaks these commandments from His very own mouth to the entire congregation. They became to intimidated to bear the rest of God's dialogue on torah, so Moses has to finish conveying the message. But make no doubt that Torah is God inspired straight from His mouth and it is His word just like the rest of what others call Scripture.

bagofseed
Apr 11th 2009, 08:50 AM
Yes, and what is the penalty of breaking the law?
Death.
After you are dead the law has no power over you.
But we who are in Jesus have died with Him.

Now we are alive through a better covenant.

Gods word never changed, the law of sin and death never went away, its just that we died to it through Christ Jesus.

bagofseed
Apr 11th 2009, 09:01 AM
Cling to the law if you want but it will in no way make you right.
It never made anyone right.

The law is good when used lawfully, and its only lawful use is to expose sin to cause it to increase, to make sin more sinful and to show us our need for a savior.

The scriptures say the law is not fitting for righteous men but only for evil men. (not a direct quote)

Know the truth, if you cling to the law you are rejecting grace, you cant have both. It is through grace and love that we excel the law without the law.

Because we have died, the law of sin and death no longer has jurisdiction over us, we are not to submit our selves to the OT law but rather to Love through the Spirit of Jesus, love which does no wrong.

God Keep You

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2009, 11:30 AM
This is the absent and ignored phrase in the sentence. There are other commands that apply beyond the ones listed, especially number four which was never revocked or repealed. In order for a law to cease being a law it has to repealed, right.

Are you saying that by not resting on the sabbath or eating meat that the law states to be unclean or by not keeping feast days, that it is causing ill to our neighbour or to God?

Are you therefore saying these are requirements that will cause us not to hurt our brothers or sisters? How do they apply when Christs commandment are for us towards one another and Gods command is for us to believe in Christ and to love as Christ has commanded?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

matthew7and1
Apr 11th 2009, 11:39 AM
That must make her lover 'feel' very secure.:eek:
:rofl: tell me about it!

manichunter
Apr 11th 2009, 02:50 PM
Hebrews 7:11-28 11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, `YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ' "); 22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

So what was change of law, by the words you highlighted, change does not imply removal but modification.

Was the initiation of the covenant that you refer to as the Old Covenant worse? God made a mistake and decided to change.

I do not say this in sarcasm at all. Just puzzled, because the holes in theology that are created, which never get answered, but people go about their way content with the gaps.

According to Scripture, everytime God created anything, He said it was good, to include His covenant. Jesus is the same everyday to include the days he walked through the gardens with Adam.

Time plays tricks on us, when he was the lamb slain before the foundations of the world. How could he be our sacrifice for sin even before he created us who would sin.

manichunter
Apr 11th 2009, 02:55 PM
Yes, and what is the penalty of breaking the law?
Death.
After you are dead the law has no power over you.
But we who are in Jesus have died with Him.

Now we are alive through a better covenant.

Gods word never changed, the law of sin and death never went away, its just that we died to it through Christ Jesus.

AND does a believer live, by dieing. And how does a believer die and yet live again. By picking up His own individual cross, denying himself, and following Jesus. Why our own cross? Why deny self? Why follow Jesus?

Is it not to continue to die to our flesh/carnality through sanctification. Torah is the means of keeping the flesh crucified and the weapon that keeps mortifying it. It exposes where the death is still in our members and gives us the option to do something about it. We still even as beleivers still have to chose life or death, from the holy and profane, clean and unclean, for the command is to be holy as he is holy.

manichunter
Apr 11th 2009, 03:21 PM
Cling to the law if you want but it will in no way make you right.
It never made anyone right.

The law is good when used lawfully, and its only lawful use is to expose sin to cause it to increase, to make sin more sinful and to show us our need for a savior.

The scriptures say the law is not fitting for righteous men but only for evil men. (not a direct quote)

Know the truth, if you cling to the law you are rejecting grace, you cant have both. It is through grace and love that we excel the law without the law.

Because we have died, the law of sin and death no longer has jurisdiction over us, we are not to submit our selves to the OT law but rather to Love through the Spirit of Jesus, love which does no wrong.

God Keep You

Why do people who do not understand torah and its relationship to christians believers automatically spill these same statements on auto-pilot.

Why can't I enjoy the same grace as any other believer and yet live free in God's instructions meant for my prosperity, good, health, and joy.
Why can't I be like David and delight in it?

It is not like I do not understand why, but you do not understand the mystery David confessed to.

Why do you think I am proving myself righteous by keeping the torah? My righteousness is in Christ just as you, and my own remains fithy rags. However, I am required to be holy, and this is by being a doer of His word we are required to live by. According to Jesus, this means every word that came from the mouth of God.
Why can't I be like Paul who was blameless in regards to it even after he was saved?

Some Believers who observe and celebrate Torah are not carried away with legalism. I know enough Christians who are bound by man made ordinances just the same. I am not bound, trapped, or limited in freedom by Torah. I say this by experience not just knowledge. And how would another know Torah is good if they lack the personal revelation of what it is to them, and more importantly a personal experience with Torah. You can't.

I merely have come to the personal revelation of what Torah means for me and how it is applicable to me in regards to my personal relationship with Jesus. If Torah does not mean anything to you, then it is not my place to critize, reject, or condemn you as my brother. We do not have all things in common yet.

Jesus earned my righteousness, but this does not make me holy.
Jesus supplies my grace, but this does not make me obediant.
Jesus manifested His love to me, but this does not show me how to love.

We can all go in circles in these endless debates about the merits of God's Torah. However, the bottom line is this in regards to our religion. It is a personal thing. What God has taught you, is what is required of you. What God has taught me, is required of me. What God has manifested to you, is also required of you as well as myself. Moreover, we are to share the goodness and goodnews God has personally revealed to each one of us. That is the chief purpose for my threads, love for you. Not to prove myself, smart, more religious, and righteous. To see a need and try to fulfill it is my heart's desire.

Be reminded, my personal walk with Jesus doctrinally is not different from Scriptural Christian other than the proper incorporation of God's Torah AKA God's instruction for holy living.

bagofseed
Apr 12th 2009, 08:31 AM
Thank you, I can respect all of that.



Jesus earned my righteousness, but this does not make me holy.
Jesus supplies my grace, but this does not make me obedient.
Jesus manifested His love to me, but this does not show me how to love.


Love is what makes you obedient.

Love is what makes you holy.

Love is what makes you love.



Love is of God and every one that loves is born of God and knows God.

We love because He first loved us.

Mt 23:26 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+23:26&version=nas&showtools=yes) "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. (Love and your deeds will be right)

If you love me you will keep my commandments.

Lu 11:41 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=lu+11:41&version=nas&showtools=yes) "But give that which is within as charity(love), and then all things are clean for you.

1Jo 4:12 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+4:12&version=kjv&showtools=yes) No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1Jo 2:5 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+2:5&version=kjv&showtools=yes) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (it is not the keeping of His word that makes us perfected but rather our being perfected in love that causes us to keep His word, to become a law unto our selves, to have the law written on our hearts, for it to be our nature to keep the law) (the letter still kills, but why does the letter kill?)

1Jo 4:17 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+4:17&version=kjv&showtools=yes) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (when we are perfected in love we are like Him)
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears punishment has not been perfected in love. 4:19 We love because he loved us first.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I give over my body in order to boast, but do not have love, I receive no benefit.


I hope you understand where I am going. the rule, the law is a good measureing tool but it does not make you holy or obediant or loving. Only Love (God Him self ) in us can make us right on the outside. But even then our outward actions still fail because of the flesh, but if Love is what is in our hearts we are still clean, even though we may fail according to the outward measure of the law at the moment.
But when we become perfected in love we will no longer fail but be like Jesus in this world.


Heb 10:1 For the law possesses a shadow of the good things to come but not the reality itself, and is therefore completely unable, by the same sacrifices offered continually, year after year, to perfect those who come to worship.


So what then is it that you are relying on the law for?

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 03:56 AM
So what then is it that you are relying on the law for?

How I rely on Torah..........?

I am relying on the Torah, not simply as a legal code of laws as to how to treat others, but as a moral, civil, and religious collection of instructions to give me a guide post and standard to aim my conduct and attitude at.

It is how I love God the way He wants to be loved. His desires set up a system for me to manifest my love towards Him that are according to His ways and not my own.

It also sets up an honor system that allows me to respect God in worship and service towards Him and others. It sets up boundaries for my attitude and prospective. He is the way, the truth, and the light. Therefore I abide and rely on the truths He provided in His judgments and commandments.

I rely on the Torah also so that it can add to me is, I endeavor to be taught and understand the spiritual principles that hide behind the letter of the Torah. Those things that make the OT more than a collection of stories and good examples, but the means of spiritual application for a foundation, that gets built upon and escalated in the NT.

It is God, like a spouse saying, this is how you show love towards me, not what you think best, but what I think best. Don't give me a gift that you know I will not want, but the one that will honor and consider my heart and mind.

Then God gives a bonus. He says, "I will show you how I love you by adding blessings to theses instructions." Ex. If you pay the tithe with a clean heart, then you show that you love me, and I will rebuke the devourer on your behalf because you are giving witness of your love and respect towards me by honoring the standard I set up.

He is the governor and the government of His own kingdom to which I am just a citizen. It is the same standard and system we live under and with everyday albeit a family or a nation, but at a secular and lower fashion. why do I our carnal man find it so hard to suffer the Torah. Is it because it cannot submit to or understand the Torah of God.

bagofseed
Apr 13th 2009, 06:11 AM
Gal3:10 For all who [/URL]rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse ...

What ever is done under the law is done under obligation and threat, how is that ever a better or more accurate expression of love.
If in Jesus we have a better covenent, what does it say when we turn back to the weaker fleshly dependant covenant to try and accomplish in our human ability what God has already done for us and is doing for us and will do for us.

What is it you can ever hope to add, should you be trying to mix the blood and bulls and rams with the blood of Jesus?

For just as God's word remains true so does the just punishment associated with the law remain.
You cant separate God's word, or even a part of it (the judgment part) It can not be nullified, only satisfied.

If you submit your self to the law (for any purpose) you will be judged by it, I dont see any exceptions.

Is not the blood of Jesus alone sufficient for cleansing?
Is not the Holy Spirit alone sufficient for sanctification?
Is Love not a sufficient fulfillment of the law.
I know you are concerned with How to love, but love by its very nature does no wrong. It is a natural fulfillment of the law.

You should not be returning again to a spirit of slavery!

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Gal&chapter=3#n20) 8:2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you[URL="http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=8#n3"] (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=8#n2) free from the law of sin and death.

I know I am being harsh, but I believe you are in a dangerous place.
May God have Mercy.

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 02:36 PM
Gal3:10 For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse ...

What ever is done under the law is done under obligation and threat, how is that ever a better or more accurate expression of love.
If in Jesus we have a better covenent, what does it say when we turn back to the weaker fleshly dependant covenant to try and accomplish in our human ability what God has already done for us and is doing for us and will do for us.

What is it you can ever hope to add, should you be trying to mix the blood and bulls and rams with the blood of Jesus?

For just as God's word remains true so does the just punishment associated with the law remain.
You cant separate God's word, or even a part of it (the judgment part) It can not be nullified, only satisfied.

If you submit your self to the law (for any purpose) you will be judged by it, I dont see any exceptions.

Is not the blood of Jesus alone sufficient for cleansing?
Is not the Holy Spirit alone sufficient for sanctification?
Is Love not a sufficient fulfillment of the law.
I know you are concerned with How to love, but love by its very nature does no wrong. It is a natural fulfillment of the law.

You should not be returning again to a spirit of slavery!

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 8:2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.

I know I am being harsh, but I believe you are in a dangerous place.
May God have Mercy.

You are not being harsh brother. We just have a difference of understanding and different experiences.

Do not worry, we enjoy the same legal freedom from the curse. However, our experiences will be different. We cannot force conviction upon one another. I understand where you are coming from kind sir. I have no intentions of letting works justify me, prove me righteous, or earn my salvation.

I have three questions for you:
Do you still commit sin?
Do you not reap what you sow?
If you do reap bad consequences after you transgress. why?

bagofseed
Apr 14th 2009, 04:10 AM
You are not being harsh brother. We just have a difference of understanding and different experiences.

Do not worry, we enjoy the same legal freedom from the curse. However, our experiences will be different. We cannot force conviction upon one another. I understand where you are coming from kind sir. I have no intentions of letting works justify me, prove me righteous, or earn my salvation.


I am not sure you do.
I am not talking about justification through works of the law.
it is only one aspect of salvation.

It seems to me you are trying to use the law for another aspect of salvation, sanctification.

You are talking about depending on the law for knowing what is right and wrong. You shouldn't be doing that, even though it is perfect, it is filtered through the corruption of our flesh. It is because of sin in the flesh that the law is death for us.

That is why only the Holy Spirit, only Love Him self will do.
Having the law written on our hearts, is having Love Himself placed inside us. We learn the law from the inside out.

When we have learned another aspect of it, have it living in our lives this amazing love, only then we can perceive that aspect of the written word in truth. Only then does it become a living word.

The letter still kills, no matter how it is applied!

Even then when some small bit of our amazing blindness is lifted, we still can not help others be freed using the law. Because they suffer from the same inability, that same corruption the makes them blind.

Its our flesh that makes the law week and unable to save (change who we are to be acceptable to God)

Please be humble and pray about it.
I am fighting for you, not just with you.
Please!


I have three questions for you:
Do you still commit sin? Where ever I don't love, or live out the life of Jesus.
Do you not reap what you sow? I am what I sow.
I am not one thing that does something else.
When my transgressions increase (are exposed), grace abounds to me all the more.
In Love I am free to draw near to God, to come into the light and have my deeds exposed.

To be in dependent relationship with Him regardless of my sin.

Because it is only through having Him in us and us in Him that we are transformed.

This is not something we grasp with our human reason through the law.

We are all to become a law unto our selves, through Love in the work of the Holy Spirit.

It is where the only real and lasting change is found, in the person of Jesus!

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