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THOM
Apr 10th 2009, 12:41 AM
GIT (Get) it Straight, The Jews DID NOT Killed JESUS CHRIST (nor the Romans for that matter)!

Please, Please, Please, note what JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF said:

"Therefore MY FATHER loves ME, because I lay down MY LIFE that I may take it again. No one takes it from ME, but I lay it down of MYSELF. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from MY FATHER. (John 10:17-18)":

Think on this: If JESUS CHRIST had allowed anyone to Kill HIM, HE would have been an accessory to [HIS OWN] Murder (HE Was NOT Guilty of Anything!); and this would have been a sin for HIM.

And lest you misunderstand any other meaning of this post, GOD Didn't Kill JESUS; JESUS certainly didn't Kill JESUS (HE couldn't have taken HIS "LIFE" back up "again", if HE had); and Satan most certainly didn't Kill JESUS.

So then, that lame misguided worn out excuse (for attempting justification of hating Jewish people) about "da Jews kilt Jesus" is just another dog that ain't gonna hunt!!!

embankmentlb
Apr 10th 2009, 02:06 AM
GIT (Get) it Straight, The Jews DID NOT Killed JESUS CHRIST (nor the Romans for that matter)!

Please, Please, Please, note what JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF said:

"Therefore MY FATHER loves ME, because I lay down MY LIFE that I may take it again. No one takes it from ME, but I lay it down of MYSELF. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from MY FATHER. (John 10:17-18)":

Think on this: If JESUS CHRIST had allowed anyone to Kill HIM, HE would have been an accessory to [HIS OWN] Murder (HE Was NOT Guilty of Anything!); and this would have been a sin for HIM.

And lest you misunderstand any other meaning of this post, GOD Didn't Kill JESUS; JESUS certainly didn't Kill JESUS (HE couldn't have taken HIS "LIFE" back up "again", if HE had); and Satan most certainly didn't Kill JESUS.

So then, that lame misguided worn out excuse (for attempting justification of hating Jewish people) about "da Jews kilt Jesus" is just another dog that ain't gonna hunt!!!
I agree totally. I have often wondered what it is about the Jewish folks that make them hated by so many.
Possible Reasons:
The elitist attitude, after all they are God's people & we are not.
Jealousy by the Gentile world for the same reason.

The Jewish Folks are some of the smartest & most united people in the world. They think "big picture" stuff & do not get caught up in useless doctrines like us Christians. My hat is off to them for there determination & vision.

markedward
Apr 10th 2009, 02:16 AM
THOM,

Your claim that "The Jews did not Killed JESUS CHRIST" is false, as proven by Scripture:

Acts 2.22-23 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know - this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

This is from Acts 2. The only people seen in this chapter are (at least) three thousand Jews/Men of Israel who had come to Jerusalem for the festival of Pentecost. The narrative continues into Acts 3:

Acts 3.12-15 And when Peter saw it he addressed the people: "Men of Israel, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk? The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.

Peter directly tells the "Men of Israel" that they "killed the Author of life".

Acts 5.30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.

Peter is speaking to the Sanhedrin here, the Jewish leadership. He specifically says "the God of our fathers", and he specifically says they "killed [Jesus] by hanging him on a tree".

1 Thessalonians 2.14-15 For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind.

Paul outright says "the Jews-killed the-Lord Jesus".

You are in contradiction with Scripture, plain and simple. It was Jews who arrested Christ in the night, it was Jews who put him on trial with false and contradicting accusations, and it was Jews who urged to Pilate to crucify Jesus. This is not "elitist" or "anti-Semitic". This is a statement of fact. This does not make all Jews "Christ-killers". It does not justify persecution of Jews in any form. It is purely a fact. Is it "anti-Egyptian" to state the fact that the Egyptians were the ones who persecuted the Hebrews? No. Did a specific generation of Egyptians do this? Yes. Does this justify oppression and persecution of Egyptians? No. Is it "anti-Babylonian" to state the fact that the Babylonians conquered the Jews? No. Did a specific generation of Babylonians do this? Yes. Does this justify oppression and persecution of Babylonians? No. So... is it "anti-Semitic" to state the fact that the Jews were responsible for Christ's death? No. Did a specific generation of Jews do this? Yes. Does this justify oppression and persecution of Jews? No.

NHL Fever
Apr 10th 2009, 02:20 AM
GIT (Get) it Straight, The Jews DID NOT Killed JESUS CHRIST (nor the Romans for that matter)!

Please, Please, Please, note what JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF said:

"Therefore MY FATHER loves ME, because I lay down MY LIFE that I may take it again. No one takes it from ME, but I lay it down of MYSELF. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from MY FATHER. (John 10:17-18)":

Think on this: If JESUS CHRIST had allowed anyone to Kill HIM, HE would have been an accessory to [HIS OWN] Murder (HE Was NOT Guilty of Anything!); and this would have been a sin for HIM.

And lest you misunderstand any other meaning of this post, GOD Didn't Kill JESUS; JESUS certainly didn't Kill JESUS (HE couldn't have taken HIS "LIFE" back up "again", if HE had); and Satan most certainly didn't Kill JESUS.

So then, that lame misguided worn out excuse (for attempting justification of hating Jewish people) about "da Jews kilt Jesus" is just another dog that ain't gonna hunt!!!

The bible clearly states that the Jewish leaders had deception in their heart and were full of hypocrisy and malice. God does factor in the sins and dark hearts of men to work things out nevertheless for good. God will not stop the wicked-hearted from making their own path in life because we are given free will.

But the bigger point IMO is that regardless of whether or not 33 AD Jews orchestrated Jesus death on the cross, it makes no sense to blame Jews now for it. That was thousands of years ago, now is now and it seems foolish to suggest that present-day people are responsible for sins occurring before they even existed, that they have no connection to.

I think God has placed a special blessing on the Jewish people, because the bible says all Abraham's descendants would be blessed. God blessed them abundantly, and judged them harshly when they were stubborn and rebellious, even using wicked nations to do so ie Babylon. If the nation of modern Israel needs judgment, God has shown he will not hesitate and they certainly have lots of enemies around for that purpose if precedent is to repeat itself. God will discipline and purify his people according to his will, and that goes for all of us as well.

THOM
Apr 10th 2009, 02:32 AM
I agree totally. I have often wondered what it is about the Jewish folks that make them hated by so many.
Possible Reasons:
The elitist attitude, after all they are God's people & we are not.
Jealousy by the Gentile world for the same reason.

The Jewish Folks are some of the smartest & most united people in the world. They think "big picture" stuff & do not get caught up in useless doctrines like us Christians. My hat is off to them for there determination & vision.

Bless you Embankmentlb; We're all GOD'S "people" ("souls"; see Ezekiel 18:4), but some of us (you and I included!!!) are HIS "Children";

but GOD, specifically, chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, the 12 Tribes, etc., as HIS "chosen people", in order to operate through. . .just to show off HIS AWESOMENESS!!! This is one reason HE could say to Abraham (and so many people who hate Jews, either didn't read it, or just choose to ignore it),

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curses thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen 12:3)". . .did you notice,


". . .in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."???

but it's all predicated on,

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curses thee."


BTW, Did you know that Noah sons were [Probably] Triplets? How else could, "Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth". . .all in the same sentence???

THOM
Apr 10th 2009, 02:49 AM
THOM,

Your claim that "The Jews did not Killed JESUS CHRIST" is false, as proven by Scripture:

Acts 2.22-23 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know - this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

This is from Acts 2. The only people seen in this chapter are (at least) three thousand Jews/Men of Israel who had come to Jerusalem for the festival of Pentecost. The narrative continues into Acts 3:

Acts 3.12-15 And when Peter saw it he addressed the people: "Men of Israel, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk? The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.

Peter directly tells the "Men of Israel" that they "killed the Author of life".

Acts 5.30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.

Peter is speaking to the Sanhedrin here, the Jewish leadership. He specifically says "the God of our fathers", and he specifically says they "killed [Jesus] by hanging him on a tree".

1 Thessalonians 2.14-15 For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind.

Paul outright says "the Jews-killed the-Lord Jesus".

You are in contradiction with Scripture, plain and simple. It was Jews who arrested Christ in the night, it was Jews who put him on trial with false and contradicting accusations, and it was Jews who urged to Pilate to crucify Jesus. This is not "elitist" or "anti-Semitic". This is a statement of fact. This does not make all Jews "Christ-killers". It does not justify persecution of Jews in any form. It is purely a fact. Is it "anti-Egyptian" to state the fact that the Egyptians were the ones who persecuted the Hebrews? No. Did a specific generation of Egyptians do this? Yes. Does this justify oppression and persecution of Egyptians? No. Is it "anti-Babylonian" to state the fact that the Babylonians conquered the Jews? No. Did a specific generation of Babylonians do this? Yes. Does this justify oppression and persecution of Babylonians? No. So... is it "anti-Semitic" to state the fact that the Jews were responsible for Christ's death? No. Did a specific generation of Jews do this? Yes. Does this justify oppression and persecution of Jews? No.

There you go again, I stated, and stand by what I have stated, The Jews didn't Kill JESUS, any more than you and I did.

Now according to the way you're interpreting Scripture, either The Jews killed JESUS,

or JESUS was lying "No one takes it from ME, but I lay it down of MYSELF."

Because, as you have so often done here, Markedward, you do not take the WHOLE of SCRIPTURE into consideration when you make your claims.

Yes the Jews (and Romans) sought out to put JESUS CHRIST to Death, they even had murder in their hearts, but when it came time to Kill JESUS (even if to just put HIM out of HIS Misery), JESUS CHRIST, According to THE SCRIPTURE, that you haven't taken into consideration, "gave up the ghost (Mark 15:37)".

markedward
Apr 10th 2009, 03:29 AM
The Jews didn't Kill JESUS,So you're saying that...

1 Thessalonians 2.14-15 For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind.

... is false?

If by "the Jews" you refer to the entirety of the Jewish people, then you are correct, they didn't kill Jesus any more directly than you or I did. But, if by "the Jews" you refer to the first-century Jews who were contemporary with Jesus, then you are entirely in contradiction with Scripture. Paul plainly states "the Jews killed the Lord Jesus". He never says "the Gentiles killed the Lord Jesus" or "the Thessalonians killed the Lord Jesus". Paul isn't talking about indirectly killing Jesus because of sins. Paul is talking about the people who were personally and directly responsible for Christ's death.

Christ's death was part of God's plan of redemption, but neither God, nor Christ, forced the Jews to hate him, put him on trial, falsely accuse him, mock him, and arrange for his death on the cross. These were the sinful actions of specific people - who Paul identifies as "the Jews" - that God turned and used for his pre-determined plan of redemption.

THOM
Apr 10th 2009, 04:21 AM
So you're saying that...

1 Thessalonians 2.14-15 For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind.

... is false?

Only if you're saying, when JESUS CHRIST stated, "No one takes it from ME, but I lay it down of MYSELF.",. . ."is false."

I'm willing to bet on JESUS' TRUTHFULNESS. Are you willing to bet on your misunderstanding?

See Mark, what you're still not taking into consideration is that sin (murder, etc.) is an attitude (with a couple of exceptions), long before it becomes an act. JESUS knew their attitude (which happened long before Calvary), but for HIM to allow their attitude to carry over into their [attempted] act, would have made HIM an accessory to the murder that they had already committed in their Heart (even before HIM being nailed to the Cross).

manichunter
Apr 10th 2009, 04:25 AM
GIT (Get) it Straight, The Jews DID NOT Killed JESUS CHRIST (nor the Romans for that matter)!

Please, Please, Please, note what JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF said:

"Therefore MY FATHER loves ME, because I lay down MY LIFE that I may take it again. No one takes it from ME, but I lay it down of MYSELF. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from MY FATHER. (John 10:17-18)":

Think on this: If JESUS CHRIST had allowed anyone to Kill HIM, HE would have been an accessory to [HIS OWN] Murder (HE Was NOT Guilty of Anything!); and this would have been a sin for HIM.

And lest you misunderstand any other meaning of this post, GOD Didn't Kill JESUS; JESUS certainly didn't Kill JESUS (HE couldn't have taken HIS "LIFE" back up "again", if HE had); and Satan most certainly didn't Kill JESUS.

So then, that lame misguided worn out excuse (for attempting justification of hating Jewish people) about "da Jews kilt Jesus" is just another dog that ain't gonna hunt!!!


Jesus was both God and Man. They murdered the man Jesus, but never could kill his divine side. If any person is crucified in the flesh they will eventually die unless some lets him down. The only difference for Jesus is that he left his body at the appointed time because of his divine side. That side of him chose to exit to only raise in entirety three days later.

Both the Jewish unbelieving populous and Romans leadership in Judea were responsible. Pilate tried to absolve himself, but was still held accountable by God. It was the Romans who fulfilled most of the prophecies concerning his torture and crucifixion.

Most forget he was the lamb slained before the foundation of the world.

markedward
Apr 10th 2009, 04:42 AM
I'm willing to bet on JESUS' TRUTHFULNESS. Are you willing to bet on your misunderstanding?Can you explain how I misunderstood Paul, when he said, plain as day "The Jews killed the Lord Jesus"? Could you please explain to me what I have misunderstood in this statement of his?

I never said Jesus was false when he said "No one takes [my life] from me, but I lay it down for myself".

But, Jesus willingly laying down his life does not negate the fact that "the Jews killed the Lord Jesus". They aren't mutually exclusive facts. So, without further ado, please address the verses I mentioned before (one by one if you find it necessary).

Acts 2.22-23 The only people seen in this chapter are (at least) three thousand Jews ("Men of Israel") who had come to Jerusalem for the festival of Pentecost. The narrative continues into Acts 3:

Acts 3.12-15 Peter directly tells the "Men of Israel" that they "killed the Author of life".

Acts 5.30 Peter is speaking to the Sanhedrin here, the Jewish leadership. He specifically says "the God of our fathers", and he specifically says they "killed [Jesus] by hanging him on a tree".

1 Thessalonians 2.14-15 Paul outright says "the Jews-killed-the Lord Jesus".

THOM
Apr 10th 2009, 05:16 AM
Can you explain how I misunderstood Paul, when he said, plain as day "The Jews killed the Lord Jesus"? Could you please explain to me what I have misunderstood in this statement of his?

I never said Jesus was false when he said "No one takes [my life] from me, but I lay it down for myself".

But, Jesus willingly laying down his life does not negate the fact that "the Jews killed the Lord Jesus". They aren't mutually exclusive facts. So, without further ado, please address the verses I mentioned before (one by one if you find it necessary).

Now if "Jesus willingly laying down his life does not negate the fact that 'the Jews killed the Lord Jesus'", then there must be something that you are, I am, missing, huh?

Acts 2.22-23 The only people seen in this chapter are (at least) three thousand Jews ("Men of Israel") who had come to Jerusalem for the festival of Pentecost. The narrative continues into Acts 3:[/quote]

"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (Acts 2:5)"

Wow, look at were that "three thousand Jews" had come from.



Acts 3.12-15 Peter directly tells the "Men of Israel" that they "killed the Author of life".

If what Peter is stating (according to you) is True, then, GOD ("the Author of life") died, huh? Because "da Jews kilt HIM", huh?

Acts 5.30 Peter is speaking to the Sanhedrin here, the Jewish leadership. He specifically says "the God of our fathers", and he specifically says they "killed [Jesus] by hanging him on a tree".

1 Thessalonians 2.14-15 Paul outright says "the Jews-killed-the Lord Jesus".[/quote]

Now don't forget that those listening to Peter's Sermon, thought what?


Answer: That they had "killed" JESUS. . .right?


So then, does thinking that the Jews "killed" JESUS, make it so?

What Peter and Paul states to their audiences, in the mind and "hearts" of their audiences, is True. That's why if you cannot rightly judge the result of what you see (the sinful act), you cannot rightly judge that which you cannot see (the attitude/motive).

crossnote
Apr 10th 2009, 06:14 AM
Can't this be a 'both/and' situation?
The Jews killed Jesus.(They cried for His blood to be upon them).
The Romans did because Pilate was responsible for turning Jesus over to be crucified after pronouncing Him innocent.
The Father did as cited in Acts.
Let's throw in Judas for betraying.
Well why were are at it...hadn't been for our sins there would have been no need for a Substitute.
Lastly He went willingly...according to plan.:2cents:

djh22
Apr 10th 2009, 01:24 PM
[quote=THOM;2040681]
"Therefore MY FATHER loves ME, because I lay down MY LIFE that I may take it again. No one takes it from ME, but I lay it down of MYSELF. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from MY FATHER. (John 10:17-18)":

I'm inclined to agree with the OP.
But a thought has just occurred ( and that doesn't happen often,Lol ) Is this planned suicide ? or does Jesus know he was walking on the wild side of the Jews anyway ?
Does it give the green flag for others to commit suicide or euthanasia ?

djh22

Rather than highjack this thread,I have started a new thread on this subject - " Is this planned suicide".

karenoka27
Apr 10th 2009, 01:34 PM
THOM,

Your claim that "The Jews did not Killed JESUS CHRIST" is false, as proven by Scripture:

Acts 2.22-23 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know - this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

This is from Acts 2. The only people seen in this chapter are (at least) three thousand Jews/Men of Israel who had come to Jerusalem for the festival of Pentecost. The narrative continues into Acts 3:

Acts 3.12-15 And when Peter saw it he addressed the people: "Men of Israel, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk? The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.

Peter directly tells the "Men of Israel" that they "killed the Author of life".

Acts 5.30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.

Peter is speaking to the Sanhedrin here, the Jewish leadership. He specifically says "the God of our fathers", and he specifically says they "killed [Jesus] by hanging him on a tree".

1 Thessalonians 2.14-15 For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind.

Paul outright says "the Jews-killed the-Lord Jesus".

You are in contradiction with Scripture, plain and simple. It was Jews who arrested Christ in the night, it was Jews who put him on trial with false and contradicting accusations, and it was Jews who urged to Pilate to crucify Jesus. This is not "elitist" or "anti-Semitic". This is a statement of fact. This does not make all Jews "Christ-killers". It does not justify persecution of Jews in any form. It is purely a fact. Is it "anti-Egyptian" to state the fact that the Egyptians were the ones who persecuted the Hebrews? No. Did a specific generation of Egyptians do this? Yes. Does this justify oppression and persecution of Egyptians? No. Is it "anti-Babylonian" to state the fact that the Babylonians conquered the Jews? No. Did a specific generation of Babylonians do this? Yes. Does this justify oppression and persecution of Babylonians? No. So... is it "anti-Semitic" to state the fact that the Jews were responsible for Christ's death? No. Did a specific generation of Jews do this? Yes. Does this justify oppression and persecution of Jews? No.
Excellent post!

Why do we try to pretend what happened didn't happen? Pilate asked "The Jews" if he should release Jesus. The "Jews" said no. Pilate said, "What shall I do with Him?" They answered "Crucify Him!"

Matthew 27:22-23-"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked. They all answered, "Crucify him!"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

Quickened
Apr 10th 2009, 02:12 PM
markedward pretty much nailed this out of the park.

Thom I think in your zeal to leave the jews blameless and relying on the verse that Jesus laid down his own life. You are missing that in order for Christ to be crufcified and or found guilty to be condemned to death that there had to be basic interaction among the people.

One of the major tenants of Sola Scriptura is that you allow scripture to interpret scripture. While the verse you posted is useful what Markedward posted shows exactly how Jesus laid his life down. It shows his willingness to obey the Fathers will that Christ be found guilty and crucified.

If it was just as simple as Christ laying down His life with no interaction from Jews or Romans as you noted in your first post then he would have died of old age. Quite frankily its kind of hard to crucify one's self. So in this instance someone had to drive those nails.

Throughout the gospel your ignoring you see the absolute guilt of people. Spitting upon our savior, lashing him, cricufying him. I dont see why you would ignore these things in light of one verse. Perhaps i have missed something?

Tomlane
Apr 10th 2009, 02:23 PM
I believe we are all guilty of murder. Because we inherited sin, and because we have a loving God we caused Him to lay down His life for us so that we could have life and have it more abundantly. So in that sense we are all guilty of murder.

James 2:9 *But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 *For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 *For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Tomlane

karenoka27
Apr 10th 2009, 02:35 PM
I believe we are all guilty of murder. Because we inherited sin, and because we have a loving God we caused Him to lay down His life for us so that we could have life and have it more abundantly. So in that sense we are all guilty of murder.

James 2:9 *But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 *For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 *For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Tomlane
Amen.

Just because it was the Jews who yelled out to have Christ crucified,it does not mean that we are not "all" guilty of the sin that put Jesus on the cross in the first place.

Romans 3:10-12-"As it is written:"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Romans 5:12-"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."

Tomlane
Apr 10th 2009, 02:42 PM
karenoka27, Beautifully said, and biblical correct.

Tomlane :pp

apothanein kerdos
Apr 10th 2009, 03:27 PM
To say that the Jews at the time were responsible for His death is taking Scripture where it doesn't need to be taken. Considering Jesus was a Jew and so were His disciples, not all Jews at the time were crying out for His death.

It was the religious leaders and probably a few passerby's - but certainly not every Jew in Judea.

When we begin to teach that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus, we inevitably end up being anti-Jew. It may not seem like a big deal to others, but try being called a Christ-killer every year around Easter while growing up.

We have to be careful how we explain the event. Though the religious Jews were the mechanism chosen to bring the Son of Man to the cross, we must never forget three very important facts:

1) He willingly died an could have stopped the event at any time

2) Our sin is the reason He had to use the religious Jews in the first place - if we weren't so insistent upon rebelling against Him, this wouldn't even be an issue

3) It wasn't the Jew that caused Him to yell out, "Why have you forsaken me." It was our sin that separated Him from the Father at that moment.

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 03:31 PM
The Jews are hated because of only one reason.

satan.

RabbiKnife
Apr 10th 2009, 03:34 PM
I am constantly amazed at our demand that we have one and only one "right" answer, when most of life, and much of the Bible, is a complex equation seen in context.

Yes, the "Jews" killed Jesus, as Paul clearly teaches. Both from a stance of national rejection of Christ and his message and their guilt in choosing Barabas over Jesus. But no, not every Jew participated in the process.

Yes, the Romans killed Jesus, because the Gospels clearly teach that the Roman authorities authorized the execution and the Roman soldiers carried out the execution order.

Yes, Jesus laid down his own life.

Yes, my sins were paid for by that death, so in a sense, I killed Jesus.

Sometimes, we need to learn to read the Scripture for what it is and not try to make a doctrinal imperative out of every "jot and tittle."

karenoka27
Apr 10th 2009, 03:35 PM
Matthew 27:17-18-"So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him"

Matthew 27:22-"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.
They all answered, "Crucify him!"

Matthew 27:23-"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

It was more than a few passers by.

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 03:36 PM
I am constantly amazed at our demand that we have one and only one "right" answer, when most of life, and much of the Bible, is a complex equation seen in context.

Yes, the "Jews" killed Jesus, as Paul clearly teaches. Both from a stance of national rejection of Christ and his message and their guilt in choosing Barabas over Jesus. But no, not every Jew participated in the process.

Yes, the Romans killed Jesus, because the Gospels clearly teach that the Roman authorities authorized the execution and the Roman soldiers carried out the execution order.

Yes, Jesus laid down his own life.

Yes, my sins were paid for by that death, so in a sense, I killed Jesus.

Sometimes, we need to learn to read the Scripture for what it is and not try to make a doctrinal imperative out of every "jot and tittle."

Again, we agree !

karenoka27
Apr 10th 2009, 03:38 PM
I am constantly amazed at our demand that we have one and only one "right" answer, when most of life, and much of the Bible, is a complex equation seen in context.

Yes, the "Jews" killed Jesus, as Paul clearly teaches. Both from a stance of national rejection of Christ and his message and their guilt in choosing Barabas over Jesus. But no, not every Jew participated in the process.

Yes, the Romans killed Jesus, because the Gospels clearly teach that the Roman authorities authorized the execution and the Roman soldiers carried out the execution order.

Yes, Jesus laid down his own life.

Yes, my sins were paid for by that death, so in a sense, I killed Jesus.

Sometimes, we need to learn to read the Scripture for what it is and not try to make a doctrinal imperative out of every "jot and tittle."
I agree as well. And with that said, Scripture clearly says that the Jews wanted Jesus crucified and as I stated before that it does not mean that we aren't all guilty for putting Jesus there in the first place.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 10th 2009, 03:38 PM
Matthew 27:17-18-"So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him"

Matthew 27:22-"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.
They all answered, "Crucify him!"

Matthew 27:23-"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

It was more than a few passers by.


But less than the entire nation of Jews. But less than all of Jerusalem. But less than...who knows. A crowd could have been 25, 50, 100...we don't know. "They" means nothing. "They" can refer to 2 people or 2 million people.

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 03:42 PM
Matthew 27:17-18-"So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him"

Matthew 27:22-"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.
They all answered, "Crucify him!"

Matthew 27:23-"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

It was more than a few passers by.


A crowd can be anything from 10 people or less to the entire nation of Israel. However, most of the population in Jerusalem that day were pilgrims, I doubt many even knew who Jesus was. Secondly Yeshua bar Abba (the other man) was probably a zealot who accosted a Roman, and he would have been very popular among the rebels. And so early in the morning, the "crowd" was probably supporters of Yeshua bar Abba and had no clue who Yeshua bin Yosef was.

by the way, "Yeshua bar Abba" (barabbas in Greek) literally means "the son of the father saves".

Just wanted to insert a realistic perspective here.

karenoka27
Apr 10th 2009, 03:42 PM
First I want to apologize for my post being in such large letters. I have fixed that. I did not mean to do that..it looks like I was yelling...oh dear.

Crowd definition: a large number of persons gathered closely together; throng:

apothanein kerdos
Apr 10th 2009, 03:44 PM
First I want to apologize for my post being in such large letters. I have fixed that. I did not mean to do that..it looks like I was yelling...oh dear.

Crowd definition: a large number of persons gathered closely together; throng:


This doesn't mean the entirety of Jews though.

Do we blame every single German during the WWII generation for Hitler and his atrocities?

karenoka27
Apr 10th 2009, 03:50 PM
I know it wasn't "all" of the Jews. That would include Mary and the apostles and His followers.

But when we do speak of the holocaust in a sentence you say the Germans. Everyone knows that it does not mean every single German. Many of them hid the Jews during that time.

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 04:13 PM
At the time the only believers in Jesus were Jews, possibly tens of thousands and maybe a few Gentiles.

These beleiving Jews along with Gentiles who observed God's commandments were later persescuted for 'being Jewish.' Through the last two milennia, Christian zealots have murdered more Jews and Arabs than Hitler,with horrible torture, burninig at the stake, etc.

Should we blame Christianity for the atrocities?

Vhayes
Apr 10th 2009, 04:17 PM
At the time the only believers in Jesus were Jews, possibly tens of thousands and maybe a few Gentiles.

These beleiving Jews were later persescuted for 'being Jewish.
To be fair, did the Jews persecute the Christians for being heretics?

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 04:21 PM
To be fair, did the Jews persecute the Christians for being heretics?

Of course. Jews don't hold any special morality over the rest of us. They eventually forced them out of the synagogues, them arrested some and at least one murder by a mob. That's a far cry from the pograms against the Jews in virutally every nation, and the attempted extermination of the Jews in many.

We're all in the same boat Vhayes, and obviously subject to lies by satan. That's why pointing fingers is such a bad thing.

Vhayes
Apr 10th 2009, 04:33 PM
The point I'm trying to make is this - there are no humans (let alone religions) blameless in this.

Are the Jews guilty of "killing" Christ? Yes - but no more guilty than I am guilty. My sins, each and everyone, no matter how major or how minor, are why He died. There was a certificate of debt that had all my sins listed, each and everyone. He paid the full price for them and the debt has been canceled out completely.
Colossians 2
13 - When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 - having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
The plan of Redemption is so simple and yet so complex it humbles me each and every tine I think about it.
V

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 04:39 PM
OF course. Even after He came to earth and taught us what the Law of Love really means, the 'body of Christ' continued to persecute and murder non-Christians and Christians who observed God's commandmentts and moedim. even today a Christian who observes God's commandments and moedim are brutally chastized and judged (by some). So tell me, what's changed?

Vhayes
Apr 10th 2009, 04:44 PM
Christians also killed Muslims by the droves in the name of God. My understanding of scripture says we are to tell others about the Way of salvation, not hack their heads off.

A "good" thing, even a scared thing, can be twisted to the point it becomes a travesty of what was originally intended and meant.

RabbiKnife
Apr 10th 2009, 04:45 PM
And Christians have killed millions of Christians in the name of God as well;

See WWI, WWII, War of Northern Agressi....I mean, War Between the States...

karenoka27
Apr 10th 2009, 04:46 PM
Just wanted to let you know that you are starting to get off topic.

The question has been answered in a few different ways. The Jews called for the killing of Jesus but we, the human race is responsible for putting Him on the cross.

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 04:57 PM
Just wanted to let you know that you are starting to get off topic.

The question has been answered in a few different ways. The Jews called for the killing of Jesus but we, the human race is responsible for putting Him on the cross.

The Jewish leadership and some others called for His death. The reality is the comman Jew had a lot more to worry about than a Jewish rabbi. They were heavily taxed, heavily oppressed and heavily burdened by both the Romans and their own leadership.

Probably at least 95% of the Jews outside of Judea didn't even know who He was at the time and within Judea, probably only half at best.

Saying 'the Jews called for Jesus death" is about as accurate as "the Americans called for the death of Martin Luther King."

That we are all responsible for His death and suffering, and the fact that LORD has paid for our punshiment is true.

karenoka27
Apr 10th 2009, 05:08 PM
The Jewish leadership and some others called for His death. The reality is the comman Jew had a lot more to worry about than a Jewish rabbi. They were heavily taxed, heavily oppressed and heavily burdened by both the Romans and their own leadership.

Probably at least 95% of the Jews outside of Judea didn't even know who He was at the time and within Judea, probably only half at best.

Saying 'the Jews called for Jesus death" is about as accurate as "the Americans called for the death of Martin Luther King."

That we are all responsible for His death and suffering, and the fact that LORD has paid for our punshiment is true.
I guess you will have to take it up with the Lord. I was only going by what Scripture says and I have already posted the verses...

(It's brutal in here...:eek:)

keck553
Apr 10th 2009, 05:33 PM
Maybe not brutal, but just trying to clarify that we can't stereotype a group of people and lump them all into the same condemnation.

Did Israel as a nation reject their Messiah? Yes. Does that condemn every Jew to hell?

Gen 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

America rejected Jewish refugees in the late 1930's and condemned them to a foreknown torture and death. Does that condemn every American to hell?

That's God's judgment. If we attempt to make that judgement, then we will be judged as we judge. .

Emanate
Apr 10th 2009, 06:20 PM
And Christians have killed millions of Christians in the name of God as well;

See WWI, WWII, War of Northern Agressi....I mean, War Between the States...


I am familiar with the War of Northern Agression but what was the "war between the states"?

Emanate
Apr 10th 2009, 06:21 PM
To be fair, did the Jews persecute the Christians for being heretics?


The major ruling bodies in Judaism persecuted all splinter sects as in Christendom.

billy-brown 2
Apr 10th 2009, 06:31 PM
Can't this be a 'both/and' situation?
The Jews killed Jesus.(They cried for His blood to be upon them).
The Romans did because Pilate was responsible for turning Jesus over to be crucified after pronouncing Him innocent.
The Father did as cited in Acts.
Let's throw in Judas for betraying.
Well why were are at it...hadn't been for our sins there would have been no need for a Substitute.
Lastly He went willingly...according to plan.:2cents:

Yep . . . that . . .^^^^

and also the following:

1 Cor. 2:6-10
6 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/2-6.htm) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: [/URL]
7 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/2-7.htm) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/2-8.htm) [U]Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/2-9.htm) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/2-10.htm) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

RabbiKnife
Apr 10th 2009, 06:33 PM
I am familiar with the War of Northern Agression but what was the "war between the states"?

That's what the temporary victors called the War of Northern Aggression....

:D

apothanein kerdos
Apr 10th 2009, 06:38 PM
Karenoka,

You have to realize that some of us in here have grown up being called "Christ-killers" and looked upon with disdain for our heritage. So when people misinterpret Scripture (including what Paul said) to mean "All Jews at that time," it puts us on edge because it brings back some pretty upsetting memories.

THOM
Apr 10th 2009, 11:45 PM
I believe we are all guilty of murder. Because we inherited sin, and because we have a loving God we caused Him to lay down His life for us so that we could have life and have it more abundantly. So in that sense we are all guilty of murder.

James 2:9 *But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 *For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 *For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Tomlane


Amen.

Just because it was the Jews who yelled out to have Christ crucified,it does not mean that we are not "all" guilty of the sin that put Jesus on the cross in the first place.

Romans 3:10-12-"As it is written:"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Romans 5:12-"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."


karenoka27, Beautifully said, and biblical correct.

Tomlane :pp

Amen to THE WORD of GOD [Scripture], and to both of you!:D

I may have missed it somewhere, but if so, it still bears repeating,

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time CHRIST died for the ungodly. But GOD commended (demonstrated) HIS love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, CHRIST died for us. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to GOD by the death of his SonHIS SON, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by HIS LIFE. (Romans 5:6,8,10)"


How AWESOME IS GOD?

AWESOME enough to have "died for us",
while we were still HIS "enemies"!!!


And this raises a question, If HE was dying for "us", why and how could HE allow us to "kill" HIM?

Tomlane
Apr 11th 2009, 12:16 AM
Thom state:
And this raises a question, If HE was dying for "*us*", why and how could HE allow us to "*kill*" HIM?

Thom, I believe you answered your own question yourself. Christ loves His enemies and indeed we are his enemy until we are reconciled to Him.

Only God could give so much for that which he hated so much, {Sin} and not only did He love us that much, but God knew that was the only way he could have victory over sin since he choose to give us a free will. That free will as you know is what has created so such a mess to start with. Mass murders, lying, adultery, just to name a few. Also we mustn't forget God has said we are in a spiritual warfare and we are the battleground and all of God's creatures are watching it all unfold. That is why believers should never walk in their own council or how they think or feel what is right, or in the belief system of a denomination but do like God says, study the word so when we stand before Him we won't be ashamed. I believe God has kept the intent of his will in every verse despite man's attempts at changing some things around such as substituting Easter for passover; just for an example.

Thank you for your input, Thom right on the money and yes we do have an awesome God who's ways are past finding out.

Thanks again, Tomlane

watchinginawe
Apr 11th 2009, 12:38 AM
GIT (Get) it Straight, The Jews DID NOT Killed JESUS CHRIST (nor the Romans for that matter)!
...
Think on this: If JESUS CHRIST had allowed anyone to Kill HIM, HE would have been an accessory to [HIS OWN] Murder (HE Was NOT Guilty of Anything!); and this would have been a sin for HIM.Yes, Jesus laid down His own life. But that doesn't mean He wasn't killed. You have offered:

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

But Pilate, when examining Jesus, said this to Jesus:

John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

Pilate states that he has the power to crucify Jesus. Then Jesus responds, and in His response is the idea of the verses in John 10 in my opinion:

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Now Jesus could have rebuked Pilate's authority at any time. However, Jesus submitted to Pilate and to crucifixion willingly. Jesus says that Pilate's power came from God and that the circumstances were not coincidence. Jesus the man was not going to be put to death like the transgressors who had no power to affect their circumstance, but rather Jesus, who did have the power chose to not use it and instead submitted to the death of the cross at the hands of sinful men.

Paul says it like this:

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Jesus didn't just quit breathing, He died as a result of the crucifixion. Jesus Himself said that He would be killed and/or slain. So those comments have to be taken into consideration also. For example:

Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.


Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.


So Jesus speaks plainly that no one could kill Him unless allowed, and therefore He submitted to the death of the cross.


So then, that lame misguided worn out excuse (for attempting justification of hating Jewish people) about "da Jews kilt Jesus" is just another dog that ain't gonna hunt!!!I don't understand that logic either.

God Bless!

THOM
Apr 11th 2009, 02:47 AM
Yes, Jesus laid down His own life. But that doesn't mean He wasn't killed. You have offered:


John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

But Pilate, when examining Jesus, said this to Jesus:

John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

Pilate states that he has the power to crucify Jesus. Then Jesus responds, and in His response is the idea of the verses in John 10 in my opinion:

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Now Jesus could have rebuked Pilate's authority at any time. However, Jesus submitted to Pilate and to crucifixion willingly. Jesus says that Pilate's power came from God and that the circumstances were not coincidence. Jesus the man was not going to be put to death like the transgressors who had no power to affect their circumstance, but rather Jesus, who did have the power chose to not use it and instead submitted to the death of the cross at the hands of sinful men.

Paul says it like this:

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I'm just not understanding then, how HE could have "laid down His own life", and at the same time, allowed someone to "kill" HIMSELF?

Again, I'll repeat what I have asserted elsewhere, YES! They ("the Jews") committed murder in their hearts; Yes, they even tried to "kill" JESUS. . .but HE couldn't let/allow them to do that

They're ("the Jews") NO MORE GUILTY of have "killed" JESUS, than you and I are. . .


so then, did you and I kill JESUS?
Are you and I guilty of Killing (Murdering) JESUS CHRIST?


And here's two Scriptures to show why:

"I JESUS have sent MINE angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM THE ROOT and THE OFFSPRING of David, and THE BRIGHT and THE MORNING STAR. (Revelation 22:16)"

"And he saith unto them, Be not affrighten: Ye seek JESUS of Nazareth, which was crucified: HE IS RISEN; HE IS not here: behold the place where they laid HIM. (Mark 16:6)"

They could only "Crucify HIM", they could NOT "kill" HIM. They wanted to "kill" HIM; they tried to "kill" HIM, but they just couldn't "kill" HIM.

One other thing, They couldn't even mouth the words, "kill HIM"! No where in Scripture!





Jesus didn't just quit breathing, He died as a result of the crucifixion. Jesus Himself said that He would be killed and/or slain. So those comments have to be taken into consideration also. For example:

Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.


Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.


So Jesus speaks plainly that no one could kill Him unless allowed, and

Not so, JESUS CHRIST "died as a result of", right after, "It is finished. (Meaning, 'PAID IN FULL'. . .for whosoever will)", and just before, "FATHER, into THY HANDS, I commend MY SPIRIT.".

I understand what you're stating, but you don't understand WHO'S ALWAYS in TOTAL CONTROL (even of "death" and/or getting "killed"). STOP trying to bring GOD down to our level (according to our will and/or mindset), and always strive to go up to HIS LEVEL. . .and just maybe, HE'll LOVE you to ["Abundantly"] LIFE for it.



therefore He submitted to the death of the cross.

God Bless!Now that, we're in total agreement on/of.

watchinginawe
Apr 11th 2009, 04:14 AM
I'm just not understanding then, how HE could have "laid down His own life", and at the same time, allowed someone to "kill" HIMSELF?Hello THOM. I might can help you there.

As I offered before, Jesus said: Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Jesus said that He would be killed at the hands of men, but that He would rise the third day. Now, maybe your point is that since Jesus had the power over His own life, therefore no one could kill Him. But, you seem to allow for the following thought:
They could only "Crucify HIM", they could NOT "kill" HIM.If Jesus had the power over all those who crucified Him, could it not also be said that "they could NOT "crucify" Him"? Indeed, Pilate said that he had the power to crucify Jesus. John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? But Pilate did not have authority or power over Jesus. So, Jesus submitted to crucifixion, and thus they "crucified Him". Likewise, Jesus submitted to death by crucifixion. Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. So in like manner of crucifixion, Jesus was "killed" by them as well.


If your point is that they couldn't kill Him because Jesus also had the power over death, then yes, I agree with you there. Jesus had said before to the disciples: Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Those who sentenced Jesus to death and those who carried out the crucifixion killed "the body" of Jesus. But as Jesus offered, even His body would rise again the third day.

God Bless!

THOM
Apr 11th 2009, 04:47 AM
Hello THOM. I might can help you there.

As I offered before, Jesus said: Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Jesus said that He would be killed at the hands of men, but that He would rise the third day. Now, maybe your point is that since Jesus had the power over His own life, therefore no one could kill Him. But, you seem to allow for the following thought:If Jesus had the power over all those who crucified Him, could it not also be said that "they could NOT "crucify" Him"? Indeed, Pilate said that he had the power to crucify Jesus. John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? But Pilate did not have authority or power over Jesus. So, Jesus submitted to crucifixion. Likewise, Jesus submitted to death by crucifixion. Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


If your point is that they couldn't kill Him because Jesus also had the power over death, then yes, I agree with you there. Jesus had said before to the disciples: Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Those who sentenced Jesus to death and those who carried out the crucifixion killed "the body" of Jesus. But as Jesus offered, even His body would rise again the third day.

God Bless!

Bless you watchinginawe,

Thank you so much for being a child of our FATHER, but before we go farther, please explain the following Scripture to me, "Then said JESUS unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11:14ff)".

JESUS spoke/speaks to us where we are, as does HIS Inspired WORD(s). If in all of the NT, Scripture states that JESUS was "killed" (even by "da Jews") but yet, in just one passage, JESUS CHRIST (da same ONE that was "killed" by 'da Jews') states, EMPHATICALLY, that, "No one takes it from ME, but I lay it down of MYSELF. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from MY FATHER.", where's the problem understanding this? With me? With you? With Scripture?

How does one "kill" someone, without taking their life from them? Did we, or just "da Jews" murder JESUS CHRIST?

watchinginawe
Apr 11th 2009, 06:09 AM
Bless you watchinginawe,

Thank you so much for being a child of our FATHER, but before we go farther, please explain the following Scripture to me, "Then said JESUS unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11:14ff)".Quite plainly, Lazarus had passed away and was buried. Jesus was clarifying His statement about Lazarus being asleep in verse 11. This was not told to Jesus, but rather Jesus knew about the events supernaturally:

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus goes to awake, or resurrect Lazarus from the dead. Regarding the body, as long as it was alive it might be healed. But even His own friends and disciples gave up hope when Lazarus passed away before Jesus could arrive. We could look at the exchange with Martha and the promise of the resurrection and eternal life, etc.
JESUS spoke/speaks to us where we are, as does HIS Inspired WORD(s). If in all of the NT, Scripture states that JESUS was "killed" (even by "da Jews") but yet, in just one passage, JESUS CHRIST (da same ONE that was "killed" by 'da Jews') states, EMPHATICALLY, that, "No one takes it from ME, but I lay it down of MYSELF. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from MY FATHER.", where's the problem understanding this? With me? With you? With Scripture?I'm not aware of a problem. :) I offered before that the lives of the two malefactors WERE taken from them. They had no power or authority to lay down their life. They were guilty and worthy of death. But Jesus, who was neither guilty nor worthy of death, submits to it willfully. Not only that, Jesus could have halted the proceedings at any time. Jesus had the power and authority over Himself and those at whose hands were against Him. They don't take His life from Him, but rather, He allows it to be taken, purposefully. Jesus submits to it.
How does one "kill" someone, without taking their life from them? Did we, or just "da Jews" murder JESUS CHRIST?I understand the nuance. The malefactors were "killed". Jesus willfully submitted (He allowed, He set apart His power over the "killers", He performed God's will, He accepted the cup) and suffered death at the hands of sinful man.

God Bless!

kc989
Apr 11th 2009, 03:28 PM
I agree totally. I have often wondered what it is about the Jewish folks that make them hated by so many.
Possible Reasons:
The elitist attitude, after all they are God's people & we are not.
Jealousy by the Gentile world for the same reason.

The Jewish Folks are some of the smartest & most united people in the world. They think "big picture" stuff & do not get caught up in useless doctrines like us Christians. My hat is off to them for there determination & vision.

I am very new at this so forgive me if The Bible proves me wrong because so far all I have read is Matthew, John and some Psalms.

Anyway, I think that when Jesus says "No one takes it from ME, but I lay it down of MYSELF" what he is saying is that it is his time and he will go one way or another.

We do not know when it is our time to go. It can happen at any second. But Jesus knew when the time of his death was to be.

So, I do believe that the Jews were the Jews were simply the "tool" used to kill his body. I look at it kind of like when a crazy person goes in and shoots people. Did the gun kill the people or did the crazy person kill the people? Point is, If Jesus wasn't crucified, he would have went another way. It was his time and he knew it.

Also, I think I have the answer as to why so many people in the world hate the Jews. I think it's quite simple actually. They are NOT followers of Christ (and when I say 'they' I mean the people with the hatred towards the Jews). From what I have read so far, Jesus has proven to me two major things: The first is that He LOVES EVERYONE...and the second is that we must do as he does.

If the people who hate the Jews were followers and believers in Christ, they wouldn't hate anyone...because Jesus tells us that we must do as he does and Jesus does not hate!

divaD
Apr 11th 2009, 03:51 PM
I am very new at this so forgive me if The Bible proves me wrong because so far all I have read is Matthew, John and some Psalms.

Anyway, I think that when Jesus says "No one takes it from ME, but I lay it down of MYSELF" what he is saying is that it is his time and he will go one way or another.

We do not know when it is our time to go. It can happen at any second. But Jesus knew when the time of his death was to be.

So, I do believe that the Jews were the Jews were simply the "tool" used to kill his body. I look at it kind of like when a crazy person goes in and shoots people. Did the gun kill the people or did the crazy person kill the people? Point is, If Jesus wasn't crucified, he would have went another way. It was his time and he knew it.

Also, I think I have the answer as to why so many people in the world hate the Jews. I think it's quite simple actually. They are NOT followers of Christ (and when I say 'they' I mean the people with the hatred towards the Jews). From what I have read so far, Jesus has proven to me two major things: The first is that He LOVES EVERYONE...and the second is that we must do as he does.

If the people who hate the Jews were followers and believers in Christ, they wouldn't hate anyone...because Jesus tells us that we must do as he does and Jesus does not hate!


Perhaps I am only misunderstanding you. But I get the impression, that even tho you realize that Jesus knew that His time to die was approaching, you seem to give the impression that He couldn't do anything to change that, if He so desired, or if the Father so desired. If Jesus had not chose to die, then He never would have died. He was fulfilling the will of the Father, yet at the same time, if He had chosen not to go thru with it, no one could have killed Him.

kc989
Apr 11th 2009, 04:02 PM
Perhaps I am only misunderstanding you. But I get the impression, that even tho you realize that Jesus knew that His time to die was approaching, you seem to give the impression that He couldn't do anything to change that, if He so desired, or if the Father so desired. If Jesus had not chose to die, then He never would have died. He was fulfilling the will of the Father, yet at the same time, if He had chosen not to go thru with it, no one could have killed Him.

Like I said, I could be very wrong and I am very new at this...I just started reading the Bible (read Matthew, John and some Psalms), I am planning on getting Baptised within the next 2 months and I am currently looking for a Church to belong.

I believe that Jesus could have chose not to die, but from what I have read, I also see that Jesus knew it was his time to go. So in my view, he had two choices: He could die when it was his time and fulfill the will of God, or he could have chose to live and disobey God. Jesus is perfect and never sinned, so he fulfilled the will of God and died.

My point was that the way he died was just that - the way it happened. It could have been a number of other ways, but I believe from what I have read that he was going to die at the exact second no matter what because that was Gods will.

So what I was saying was that even though (from what I have read) the Jews were the ones who "killed" Jesus, he was going to die anyway and that was just the way it happened.

Mograce2U
Apr 11th 2009, 04:47 PM
Like I said, I could be very wrong and I am very new at this...I just started reading the Bible (read Matthew, John and some Psalms), I am planning on getting Baptised within the next 2 months and I am currently looking for a Church to belong.

I believe that Jesus could have chose not to die, but from what I have read, I also see that Jesus knew it was his time to go. So in my view, he had two choices: He could die when it was his time and fulfill the will of God, or he could have chose to live and disobey God. Jesus is perfect and never sinned, so he fulfilled the will of God and died.

My point was that the way he died was just that - the way it happened. It could have been a number of other ways, but I believe from what I have read that he was going to die at the exact second no matter what because that was Gods will.

So what I was saying was that even though (from what I have read) the Jews were the ones who "killed" Jesus, he was going to die anyway and that was just the way it happened.Actually that is not exactly correct, this was the way He was to die because that is what the Father had ordained for 'the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world'. All of which was according to prophecy given beforehand.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. (Ps 35:19; 69:4)

Lam 4:12-13 The kings of the earth, and all the inhabitants of the world, would not have believed that the adversary and the enemy should have entered into the gates of Jerusalem. For the sins of her prophets, and the iniquities of her priests, that have shed the blood of the just in the midst of her,

Mat 23:29-36 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

If we try to take away the guilt from those men who crucified the Lord then we are presented with the problem that God was not just in bringing judgment upon those men for what they did. And it was their blood which satisfied the judgment due upon their fathers who had killed all the prophets who had been sent to them. Atonement has both a saving purpose and a judgment purpose. Justice and mercy go hand in hand.

Else why was Jesus raised as proof that He is the One who will judge the living and the dead? All of which is according to the word in the record we have been given.

Hab 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Israel's wicked leaders who knew these things, were without excuse.

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