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cajunman4life
Apr 10th 2009, 03:36 PM
Let me start off by saying this may be a controversial subject, and I hope this thread will not turn into an argument or anything to that effect. I wish to strike up a good discussion on the topic. Mods, if this is in the wrong place, by all means correct me :).

Having aired my disclaimer, let me start with this. I held the long-time belief that the ministry was for men, and followed along with others by quoting 1 Timothy 3:2, Titus 1:6, and other places in scripture that basically seem to tell us only men are fit for "preaching."

However, today as I prepare for Easter by reading up on the resurrection, I found something interesting that never seemed that interesting before. In Mark and John's Gospels, Jesus appears after the resurrection first to Mary Magdalene. Now while this may seem innocuous enough to some, it struck a chord in me. It seems to me that if Jesus held a woman in high enough esteem to appear first to her, then perhaps the later views by Paul (in his letters to Timotheus and Titus) are a bit misplaced?

I'm curious to hear (or read I suppose) the thoughts of others on this matter.

(Let it be known that I am not sexist, and I see nothing wrong with a woman serving as a pastor.)

apothanein kerdos
Apr 10th 2009, 03:42 PM
Let me start off by saying this may be a controversial subject, and I hope this thread will not turn into an argument or anything to that effect. I wish to strike up a good discussion on the topic. Mods, if this is in the wrong place, by all means correct me :).

Having aired my disclaimer, let me start with this. I held the long-time belief that the ministry was for men, and followed along with others by quoting 1 Timothy 3:2, Titus 1:6, and other places in scripture that basically seem to tell us only men are fit for "preaching."

However, today as I prepare for Easter by reading up on the resurrection, I found something interesting that never seemed that interesting before. In Mark and John's Gospels, Jesus appears after the resurrection first to Mary Magdalene. Now while this may seem innocuous enough to some, it struck a chord in me. It seems to me that if Jesus held a woman in high enough esteem to appear first to her, then perhaps the later views by Paul (in his letters to Timotheus and Titus) are a bit misplaced?

I'm curious to hear (or read I suppose) the thoughts of others on this matter.

(Let it be known that I am not sexist, and I see nothing wrong with a woman serving as a pastor.)


Let me be clear - it's sexist to think that women should be able to serve in the pastorate. :)

Women were held in very high esteem in the New Testament. They did share the Gospel. But one thing we never see is them taking authority over men in any significant role. We see no female authority in the early church or in Scripture; we see such a concept actually spoken out against.

This is because men have certain roles and woman have certain roles. Authority doesn't mean "I'm better than you." It simply means a different role has been fulfilled. These roles compliment each other.

If we drop the modern 20th century feminist mindset - which is contrary to Scripture - then we actually see the beauty of Scripture and its teachings on gender roles.

RabbiKnife
Apr 10th 2009, 03:53 PM
In corollary to my brother AK, and not in opposition, likewise, when we drop the 20th century North American religious mindset of what a church is -- which the Scripture does not teach -- we actually see the beauty of the Scripture and what it teaches about member/body ministry!

There is a substantial, although controversial, line of thought that holds Junia in Rome up as a female apostle -- this is not the place for that fight.

There is a substantial, although controversial, line of thought that holds that the "usurp authority over a man" phrase from 1 Timothy is a horrific translation and that the entire passage deals with a particular brand of gnosticism that Paul was fighting at Ephesus related to Eve-worship.

There is a substantial, although controversial, line of thought that holds that eldership in the local church is always in a plurality, that no single individual is set in authority over a local church, and that anyone teaching, be they male or female, is always subject to the authority and judgment of the local eldership.

karenoka27
Apr 10th 2009, 03:54 PM
I'm not here to argue but to ask a question.
What does Jesus appearing first to Mary have to do with a woman being a Pastor?I'm not sure I understand.

Quickened
Apr 10th 2009, 03:58 PM
I'm not here to argue but to ask a question.
What does Jesus appearing first to Mary have to do with a woman being a Pastor?I'm not sure I understand.


Thats a great question because i was going to ask the same thing!

cajunman4life
Apr 10th 2009, 04:27 PM
Thats a great question because i was going to ask the same thing!

The story of Jesus appearing first to Mary really had nothing to do with a woman being a pastor. I merely mentioned this because it "set the stage" for what caused me to travel down this road of thought.

Good point to you both apothanein kerdos and RabbiKnife. In SOME (note, some) churches today it's almost society and our "modern mindset and thinking" that shapes the church, and not actual scripture.

Essentially, my question has been answered - in that there is no scriptual support for women holding the role of a "Pastor."

RabbiKnife
Apr 10th 2009, 04:32 PM
The story of Jesus appearing first to Mary really had nothing to do with a woman being a pastor. I merely mentioned this because it "set the stage" for what caused me to travel down this road of thought.

Good point to you both apothanein kerdos and RabbiKnife. In SOME (note, some) churches today it's almost society and our "modern mindset and thinking" that shapes the church, and not actual scripture.

Essentially, my question has been answered - in that there is no scriptual support for women holding the role of a "Pastor."

I would argue, instead, that there is no scriptural support for the North American job of "pastor". Gender has nothing to do with it. But that's a whole 'nuther story.

matthew94
Apr 10th 2009, 04:35 PM
Just for the sake of language, I think we should point out that ALL Christian women BETTER BE IN MINISTRY. Whether they are to be in leadership over men is the question.

cajunman4life
Apr 10th 2009, 04:44 PM
I still stumble over my own words...

Indeed, I believe we're all called in to "ministry." The term pastor is basically what ministry seems to equate to today, however that is not (or rather, should not be) the case. We're all "witnesses" of Jesus Christ. We all are charged with spreading the gospel. Men AND Women should be doing such.

So to clarify, "leadership role within a body of Christ" is what I'm meaning where I say "pastor."

karenoka27
Apr 10th 2009, 05:02 PM
I still stumble over my own words...

Indeed, I believe we're all called in to "ministry." The term pastor is basically what ministry seems to equate to today, however that is not (or rather, should not be) the case. We're all "witnesses" of Jesus Christ. We all are charged with spreading the gospel. Men AND Women should be doing such.

So to clarify, "leadership role within a body of Christ" is what I'm meaning where I say "pastor."

Forgive me again for not understanding. If you don't mean a Pastor,what kind of leadership role do you mean in the Body of Christ.
I still don't see what Jesus appearing to Mary first has to do with leadership.

Women are highly esteemed in the Bible as was previously mentioned. We are all called to use the gifts that God has given us in a ministry in our church to edify the body.

cajunman4life
Apr 10th 2009, 05:25 PM
Forgive me again for not understanding. If you don't mean a Pastor,what kind of leadership role do you mean in the Body of Christ.


So to clarify, "leadership role within a body of Christ" is what I'm meaning where I say "pastor."

ARGH! My apologies. When I first mentioned "ministry" (as in, the first post of this thread), I was refering to the "leadership role within the church, otherwise known as pastor." I was trying to clarify this in the above quoted post, but ended up typing "pastor" where I meant to type "ministry." I'll admit it, I'm not perfect :help: (I should really take a vacation)


I still don't see what Jesus appearing to Mary first has to do with leadership.

In terms of the Jesus appearing to Mary first - again, that was the first thought in my "thought processs." Which lead to another, and another, and so on and so forth, ad infinium, ad nauseum. Which ended up at the question posted in my original post. So again, Jesus appearing to Mary has nothing to do with women in a leadership role within a church, and I only made mention of it to outline where my thought process began. And, let's be honest, even I can admit I didn't make that clear (I showed where I started, and where I ended, without showing the path I travelled to get there).


Women are highly esteemed in the Bible as was previously mentioned. We are all called to use the gifts that God has given us in a ministry in our church to edify the body.

I agree 100% with what you say, as I alluded to in my prior post.

bagofseed
Apr 11th 2009, 02:31 AM
Just for the sake of language, I think we should point out that ALL Christian women BETTER BE IN MINISTRY. Whether they are to be in leadership over men is the question.
No question there, if you believe in the God of the bible.

Tomlane
Apr 11th 2009, 02:52 AM
Also there are the qualifications for Elders and Bishops and no where to we find God has given a woman that authority either. What it does say is a woman has to be in subjection to her husband as well as the children for a man to have this office. Also God has said since the woman was first deceived she is to remain silent in the church and ask her husband at home for something she doesn't understand. She can give her testimony and teach younger children.

I also think Satan still uses a woman to get to a man to this day since human nature hasn't changed.

I don't believe this is being legalistic or being a dictator but walking in God's order. I also realize its against a woman's nature to have her husband as her Lord unless she is walking spiritually and trusting the Lord that His way works. However if she doesn't have a Christian husband the Lord will give her the strength to endure this subjection if she want to walk in God's will.

Tomlane

CommanderRobey
Apr 11th 2009, 07:27 AM
I am reminded of the four daughters of Philip who prophesied in Acts:


Acts 21:8-9 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Reading through the chapter, we find no rebuke for the women prophesying.

Also,


Acts 18:24-26 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.Notice both the man and his wife expounded the way of God. And still, no rebuke.

We see in John 4 the woman who ran to the city and preached Christ to all, "Come see a man who told me all things whatsoever I did. Is not this the Christ?"

There are many women used in the Word of God to preach Christ. But, Scripture is clear... the bishop must be the husband of one wife... not the wife of one husband. Leadership, the authoritative position was given to man. Man is supposed to be the one who pastors the flock.

I have no problem with allowing a woman to minister if God gives her a message... none whatsoever. But she can preach that message without the pastoral title that God's Word declares belongs to a man.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 11th 2009, 02:20 PM
I am reminded of the four daughters of Philip who prophesied in Acts:



Reading through the chapter, we find no rebuke for the women prophesying.

Also,

Notice both the man and his wife expounded the way of God. And still, no rebuke.

We see in John 4 the woman who ran to the city and preached Christ to all, "Come see a man who told me all things whatsoever I did. Is not this the Christ?"

There are many women used in the Word of God to preach Christ. But, Scripture is clear... the bishop must be the husband of one wife... not the wife of one husband. Leadership, the authoritative position was given to man. Man is supposed to be the one who pastors the flock.

I have no problem with allowing a woman to minister if God gives her a message... none whatsoever. But she can preach that message without the pastoral title that God's Word declares belongs to a man.

This is a good and balanced view. It shows it's possible to preach the Word without being in a position of authority.

cajunman4life
Apr 11th 2009, 02:32 PM
This is a good and balanced view. It shows it's possible to preach the Word without being in a position of authority.

Well said, I too agree this is a good view.

Walstib
Apr 11th 2009, 02:54 PM
So to clarify, "leadership role within a body of Christ" is what I'm meaning where I say "pastor."

The one I use for this discussion is

"The overseer when a group of believers (co-ed) are gathered together for the express purpose of teaching God's word"

cajunman4life
Apr 11th 2009, 03:02 PM
The one I use for this discussion is

"The overseer when a group of believers (co-ed) are gathered together for the express purpose of teaching God's word"

I'll buy that. :)

Steven3
May 31st 2009, 04:27 PM
I am reminded of the four daughters of Philip who prophesied in Acts:

bear in mind that prophecy in Jewish contexts has 2 possible meanings:
(1) inspired speech - usually about the future
(2) inspired worship - usually musical

1 Chron 25:3 Of Jeduthun, the sons of Jeduthun: Gedaliah, Zeri, Jeshaiah, Shimei, Hashabiah, and Mattithiah, six, under the direction of their father Jeduthun, who prophesied with the lyre in thanksgiving and praise to the Lord.

In this case the comparison with Agabus (obviously type 1) suggests that the four unmarried daughters were doing (2) not (1).

Acts 21:8 On the next day we departed and came to Caesarea, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. 9 He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied. 10 While we were staying for many days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘This is how the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’”

i.e. probably:

Philip = evangelist, preacher
4 daughters = his band
Agabus = OT style prophet

kay-gee
Jun 1st 2009, 02:14 PM
bear in mind that prophecy in Jewish contexts has 2 possible meanings:
(1) inspired speech - usually about the future
(2) inspired worship - usually musical

1 Chron 25:3 Of Jeduthun, the sons of Jeduthun: Gedaliah, Zeri, Jeshaiah, Shimei, Hashabiah, and Mattithiah, six, under the direction of their father Jeduthun, who prophesied with the lyre in thanksgiving and praise to the Lord.

In this case the comparison with Agabus (obviously type 1) suggests that the four unmarried daughters were doing (2) not (1).

Acts 21:8 On the next day we departed and came to Caesarea, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. 9 He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied. 10 While we were staying for many days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘This is how the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’”

i.e. probably:

Philip = evangelist, preacher
4 daughters = his band
Agabus = OT style prophet

A long shot! I am inclined to believe that these 4 prophecing daughters were fulfillment to Acts 2:17 (Joel 2:28)

In those early church days, miraculous gifts were common place but as the written word of God (New Testament Scriptures) became completed, these types of ministries ended. (1Cor 13:8)

all the best...

TrophyofGrace
Jun 1st 2009, 03:01 PM
If we drop the modern 20th century feminist mindset - which is contrary to Scripture - then we actually see the beauty of Scripture and its teachings on gender roles.

I also agree with AK's statement here.

There are ministries in which women can take part - such as music, for example - without being a pastor or usurping authority over the man. Plus, I don't see anything wrong with women teaching other women or children in a Sunday school setting, especially when a man is unavailable or unwilling to fill the position.

Veretax
Jun 1st 2009, 05:22 PM
I am reminded of the four daughters of Philip who prophesied in Acts:



Reading through the chapter, we find no rebuke for the women prophesying.

Also,

Notice both the man and his wife expounded the way of God. And still, no rebuke.

We see in John 4 the woman who ran to the city and preached Christ to all, "Come see a man who told me all things whatsoever I did. Is not this the Christ?"

There are many women used in the Word of God to preach Christ. But, Scripture is clear... the bishop must be the husband of one wife... not the wife of one husband. Leadership, the authoritative position was given to man. Man is supposed to be the one who pastors the flock.

I have no problem with allowing a woman to minister if God gives her a message... none whatsoever. But she can preach that message without the pastoral title that God's Word declares belongs to a man.

I agree with this. God wanted it to be clear who he would allow to lead his church. It is no way intended as as light to woman, or as a means for men to keep them under foot. This is my line of thinking too.



This is a good and balanced view. It shows it's possible to preach the Word without being in a position of authority.


Exactly, my belief is that all who come to Christ, who accept the salvation call are called, not only to be conformed to the image of Christ, but to service! Not everyone is gifted the same way, but I believe that we each have our ministries that God entrusts to us. raising Children is one example often left forgotten. But there is a difference between having gifts to evangelize, to spread the gospel, and being gifted with the leadership to hold a certain office.


(is it me or have there been a lot of discussions about this point in recent weeks?)

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