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embankmentlb
Apr 10th 2009, 04:40 PM
For those who are saved by grace in Jesus Christ. What, if any, works are we required to do to keep our salvation? What acts of obedience are we required to do? Is there a difference in works of Salvation & works of Obedience?

RabbiKnife
Apr 10th 2009, 04:43 PM
Works do not cause salvation.
Works do not keep salvation.
Works are the natural outflow of salvation.

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2009, 05:14 PM
For those who are saved by grace in Jesus Christ. What, if any, works are we required to do to keep our salvation? What acts of obedience are we required to do? Is there a difference in works of Salvation & works of Obedience?

It depends on what you say are works of love towards one another;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
Apr 10th 2009, 05:49 PM
It depends on what you say are works of love towards one another;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

God bless you!

Firstfruits
How about things like: Baptism, tithing, Church attendance, speaking in tongues, keeping the ten commandments , keeping the Sabbath.

Are any of these things required for salvation or required as an act of obedience? If as an act of obedience how is that different than a requirement for salvation?
Or, are they simply optional ?

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 10th 2009, 05:51 PM
If somebody is truly born again from Above.. thru the Will and foreknowledge of God... then those good works that we are directed into and called to walk in...

who Ordains those works?...

is it us? or does God?

RabbiKnife
Apr 10th 2009, 05:53 PM
How about things like: Baptism, tithing, Church attendance, speaking in tongues, keeping the ten commandments , keeping the Sabbath.

Are any of these things required for salvation or required as an act of obedience? If as an act of obedience how is that different than a requirement for salvation?
Or, are they simply optional ?

There are no "acts of obedience" subsequent to salvation, other than to continue to believe and follow Christ. Following Christ will result in good works. Whether the things in your list qualify as "good works" might be a matter of some discussion.

Firstfruits
Apr 10th 2009, 06:21 PM
How about things like: Baptism, tithing, Church attendance, speaking in tongues, keeping the ten commandments , keeping the Sabbath.

Are any of these things required for salvation or required as an act of obedience? If as an act of obedience how is that different than a requirement for salvation?
Or, are they simply optional ?

It say it is ministered to the saints.

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Apr 12th 2009, 04:21 AM
There are no "acts of obedience" subsequent to salvation, other than to continue to believe and follow Christ. Following Christ will result in good works. Whether the things in your list qualify as "good works" might be a matter of some discussion.

Since salvation is not actually obtained until after one has endured to the end, all works are subsequent to salvation.

Butch5
Apr 12th 2009, 04:22 AM
For those who are saved by grace in Jesus Christ. What, if any, works are we required to do to keep our salvation? What acts of obedience are we required to do? Is there a difference in works of Salvation & works of Obedience?

Everything Jesus commanded.

crossnote
Apr 12th 2009, 05:39 AM
Since salvation is not actually obtained until after one has endured to the end, all works are subsequent to salvation.

So we endure to the end, then we obtain salvation then works follow? Huh?:confused

crossnote
Apr 12th 2009, 05:49 AM
For those who are saved by grace in Jesus Christ. What, if any, works are we required to do to keep our salvation? What acts of obedience are we required to do? Is there a difference in works of Salvation & works of Obedience?

He is the Keeper.

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(1Pe 1:5)

Our abiding in Him does not keep us but it is part of the fruit bearing process.

Works of Salvation belongs to Christ Alone (Solus Christus).
Works of obedience are both Christ and ours. The only difference is that His works are perfect and our works (better termed fruit) need perfecting.
Our rest is in His Great Work of Salvation for us. Our contribution of imperfect works only muddy the pure waters of grace if done in order to earn favor. He works in us producing works acceptable to Him on account of Christ's perfect obedience yet are imperfect if judged against His Holiness.
We will always be this side of eternity a work in progress.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 10:37 AM
For those who are saved by grace in Jesus Christ. What, if any, works are we required to do to keep our salvation? What acts of obedience are we required to do? Is there a difference in works of Salvation & works of Obedience?

According to the following scripture there are two types of works, the law of works which are accoring to the law given to Moses by God and the law of faith. So ye there is a difference.

Rom 3:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

What therefore are the works of faith? What are the works that accompany salvation, as it is written that it is not the law of works as given to Moses?

1 Thess 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

dworthington
Apr 12th 2009, 11:02 AM
Works do not cause salvation.
Works do not keep salvation.
Works are the natural outflow of salvation.


Amen............................

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 01:20 PM
How about things like: Baptism, tithing, Church attendance, speaking in tongues, keeping the ten commandments , keeping the Sabbath.

Are any of these things required for salvation or required as an act of obedience? If as an act of obedience how is that different than a requirement for salvation?
Or, are they simply optional ?

Can we minister baptism to the saints?

Can we minister tithing to the saints?

Can we minister church attendance to the saints? etc, etc.

They are not required for salvation, can you be obedient to that which is not required, other than that which will affect the saints.

The only thing required for salvation is faith in Christ. That applies to all, whether Jew or Gentile.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

apothanein kerdos
Apr 12th 2009, 05:50 PM
A lot of this boils down to what you think Christ accomplished on the cross. If you believe He took the sins of the world upon Himself, then you generally don't believe that we need to work for our salvation or use works to maintain our salvation (as such a belief would be inconsistent with this view of the atonement).

If you believe He merely ransomed us from a sinful world and deny substitutionary atonement, you generally believe we have to perform good works to maintain our salvation and avoid this world, that we aren't saved until the end (which literally makes no sense - how can you be sanctified if you aren't justified?).

Essentially, the first group is correct Biblically, even if they adopt other views of the atonement. The first group looks at salvation Biblically as well as something that happened to us, happens to us, and will happen to us. We are justified once, through the substitutionary atonement, we are sanctified due to Christ being our Christus Victor, and we will be glorified because Christ is our ransom.

Now, I could post multiple verses on how our works don't save us, but of course many people on here will argue, 'BUT THAT'S WORKS OF THE LAW!!!!!111!!!1!!1!" Even though they're wrong, what's the point? If they want to be in bondage, let them. As for me, I'll have a relationship built upon grace. If they're consistent with their belief and follow it to its logical conclusions, they'll sadly realize they're going to Hell, as is everyone else.

fuzzi
Apr 12th 2009, 06:05 PM
Works do not cause salvation.
Works do not keep salvation.
Works are the natural outflow of salvation.

The only thing required for salvation is faith in Christ. That applies to all, whether Jew or Gentile.
Amen and Amen. Well spoken, succinct and clear.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 06:19 PM
A lot of this boils down to what you think Christ accomplished on the cross. If you believe He took the sins of the world upon Himself, then you generally don't believe that we need to work for our salvation or use works to maintain our salvation (as such a belief would be inconsistent with this view of the atonement).

If you believe He merely ransomed us from a sinful world and deny substitutionary atonement, you generally believe we have to perform good works to maintain our salvation and avoid this world, that we aren't saved until the end (which literally makes no sense - how can you be sanctified if you aren't justified?).

Essentially, the first group is correct Biblically, even if they adopt other views of the atonement. The first group looks at salvation Biblically as well as something that happened to us, happens to us, and will happen to us. We are justified once, through the substitutionary atonement, we are sanctified due to Christ being our Christus Victor, and we will be glorified because Christ is our ransom.

Now, I could post multiple verses on how our works don't save us, but of course many people on here will argue, 'BUT THAT'S WORKS OF THE LAW!!!!!111!!!1!!1!" Even though they're wrong, what's the point? If they want to be in bondage, let them. As for me, I'll have a relationship built upon grace. If they're consistent with their belief and follow it to its logical conclusions, they'll sadly realize they're going to Hell, as is everyone else.

It is misunderstanding over which law we are to abide by.

Rom 3:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

apothanein kerdos
Apr 12th 2009, 06:21 PM
It is misunderstanding over which law we are to abide by.

Rom 3:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

If we must abide by any law that includes works in order to maintain our salvation, then Christianity is worthless, the death of Christ was worthless, and there's no reason to believe in God, at least the God of the Bible.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 06:48 PM
If we must abide by any law that includes works in order to maintain our salvation, then Christianity is worthless, the death of Christ was worthless, and there's no reason to believe in God, at least the God of the Bible.

There are no works that maintain salvation but there are things we can do that accompany salvation as in the following scripture.

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

apothanein kerdos
Apr 12th 2009, 07:00 PM
There are no works that maintain salvation but there are tings we can do that accompany salvation as in the following scripture.

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Ah, now I see what you're saying and I agree.

Once saved, we do works for Christ out of love.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 07:04 PM
Ah, now I see what you're saying and I agree.

Once saved, we do works for Christ out of love.

Yes that is right, love is the key.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Tomlane
Apr 13th 2009, 12:55 AM
Butch stated:
Since salvation is not actually obtained until after one has endured to the end, all works are subsequent to salvation.

In light of other scriptures enduring to the end for salvation makes no sense.

God would be contradicting Himself if that is what that meant. I understand the context you have used that one verse for salvation. I could take this next verse out of context and have it mean just the opposite.

Romans 6:8 *Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

If I have to be dead with Christ to believe so I can be with him I better find some on to shoot me or do it myself.

Doesn't make sense does it?

If you take your statement that says: Matthew 10:22 *And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

However if you put the next verse with it, then it makes a lot more sense.

Matthew 10:21 *And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Christ was referring to these situations that one would have to endure. This has not come about as of yet but when it does, Matthew 10: 22 is not referring to salvation if one endures.

In order for anyone to endure, a bad marriage, out of work, life in general, and no matter how extreme the circumstances as Christ mentioned in the next verse we have to be saved first or we won't endure. And if we don't endure and we are saved, we are only demonstrating our carnality in unbelief.

1 John 5:10 *∂He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:5 *Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

John 12:46 *I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Romans 3:28 *Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Butch, you used one reference to scripture to prove your point, yet when you examine the many scriptures not one of them states you have to endure to the end.

There are dozens upon dozens that stated just the opposite of enduring to the end to be saved.

Tomlane

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 02:22 AM
So we endure to the end, then we obtain salvation then works follow? Huh?:confused

There are three tenses to salvation spoken of in the Scriptures. You have been saved, you are being saved, and you shall be saved. Until the future tense is complete we are not completely saved. The past tense speaks of initial belief, from this point we are required to do those things which are commanded by Christ, these are the works we were created for. If we do not do these works then we don't get to the future tense of being saved, which is the final step.

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 02:51 AM
Butch stated:

In light of other scriptures enduring to the end for salvation makes no sense.

God would be contradicting Himself if that is what that meant. I understand the context you have used that one verse for salvation. I could take this next verse out of context and have it mean just the opposite.

Romans 6:8 *Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

If I have to be dead with Christ to believe so I can be with him I better find some on to shoot me or do it myself.

Doesn't make sense does it?

If you take your statement that says: Matthew 10:22 *And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

However if you put the next verse with it, then it makes a lot more sense.

Matthew 10:21 *And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Christ was referring to these situations that one would have to endure. This has not come about as of yet but when it does, Matthew 10: 22 is not referring to salvation if one endures.

In order for anyone to endure, a bad marriage, out of work, life in general, and no matter how extreme the circumstances as Christ mentioned in the next verse we have to be saved first or we won't endure. And if we don't endure and we are saved, we are only demonstrating our carnality in unbelief.

1 John 5:10 *∂He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:5 *Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

John 12:46 *I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Romans 3:28 *Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Butch, you used one reference to scripture to prove your point, yet when you examine the many scriptures not one of them states you have to endure to the end.

There are dozens upon dozens that stated just the opposite of enduring to the end to be saved.

Tomlane

Tom,

I could post dozens of Scriptures, the point is, just because a verse does not state one has to endure to the end does not disprove what I said. That is the same logic used in the OSAS argument and it is flawed. Tom, you said,


Tomlane---Matthew 10: 22 is not referring to salvation if one endures.

Yet Jesus says the exact opposite. The context is, Jesus sends the apostles to the Jews and tells them they will be persecuted, and the one who endures to the end shall be saved. When did the apostles persecutions end? Was it not at death? I believe all of the apostles except for John were executed and John was imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos. They had to endure persecutions until death. So, the one who endures to the end shall be saved.


Tomlane---There are dozens upon dozens that stated just the opposite of enduring to the end to be saved.


Can you show me one? Let's look at some of what you posted.


Tomlane---1 John 5:5 *Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Let me ask you, this verse says the overcomer is the one that believes, if one stops believing are the still an overcomer??? the logical answer is no, the question then is, have they endured to the end, again the logical answer is no. So, in order to be an overcomer one must endure to the end.

The same can be said for the other verse from the apostle.


Tomlane---Romans 3:28 *Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Justified is not saved. One can be justified and still be lost.

Can you give a Scripture that says the opposite of what I said. A Scripture that states that we do not have to endure to the end?

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 11:22 AM
Butch5, You need to do some more research.

Romans 10:2
For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 02:26 PM
Butch5, You need to do some more research.

Romans 10:2
For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

How so? You asked a few questions in your OP, I answered them. If you disagree please use Scripture to show how.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 03:06 PM
Since salvation is not actually obtained until after one has endured to the end, all works are subsequent to salvation.

Ok, let us start with your first post.

Romans 10:8-10

8But what does it say? "(A)THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9that (B)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (C)believe in your heart that (D)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

There is nothing here about "works & nothing about enduring till the end", yet it says If you believe,you will be saved. Now i ask you, if you truly want to have a discussion, to also respond with a scripture.

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 03:30 PM
For those who are saved by grace in Jesus Christ. What, if any, works are we required to do to keep our salvation? What acts of obedience are we required to do? Is there a difference in works of Salvation & works of Obedience?

Name one human in the histoy of creation who wasn't saved by grace.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 04:09 PM
Name one human in the histoy of creation who wasn't saved by grace.
I can't, all are saved by grace. So where are the works?

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 04:11 PM
I can't, all are saved by grace. So where are the works?

There never were 'works' among the faithful; only response to God's Torah.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 04:22 PM
There never were 'works' among the faithful; only response to God's Torah.
Ok this is a very simple question. Please give me one scripture that says once we are joined with Jesus that we ARE to produce works in response to the torah. Thanks

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 05:53 PM
Ok, let us start with your first post.

Romans 10:8-10

8But what does it say? "(A)THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9that (B)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (C)believe in your heart that (D)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

There is nothing here about "works & nothing about enduring till the end", yet it says If you believe,you will be saved. Now i ask you, if you truly want to have a discussion, to also respond with a scripture.


Sure, what is it that you are to believe? Also please define what you mean by saved. As I said the Scriptures speak of salvation in three tenses, past, present, and future. I assume you are referring to the past tense, however I await your reply.

So, what is it that you are believe? Let's look at he passage you posted,

Romans 10:8-10 ( KJV )

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It seems Paul is saying from the passage that "YOU" quoted that one must also confess Christ in order to be saved. Notice the word "and", that mean there is something in addition to belief. The reasoning that says works are not necessary because they are not contained in this verse is flawed. This passage is speaking of faith, not works. To see if works are necessary you must look a passages that speak of works. If I said to you, I drove over to your house in my car, would you assume that it did not have an engine just because I did not mention it? Of course not. It is the same with Scriptures, if a passage is speaking of the necessity of faith we would no expect it to speak of works. If the passage was describing what faith is, then we would expect it to speak of works, belief, confession, etc. Notice what Paul has said here, "but the word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth". What is the word? Paul goes on to tell us, it is the "word of faith which we preach". What is the word of faith that Paul preached?

Romans 16:25-27 ( KJV )
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

That is the word of faith that Paul preached, that is what we are to believe, if we do not act accordingly, then we do not believe. So, if you go to Matthew 5-7 you will see the works that Christ commands of His followers, These are the works that Christians are to do. Hebrews tells us that Christ became eternal salvation to those who obey Him,

Hebrews 5:8-9 ( KJV )
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This passage doesn't say anything about belief, should I therefore say that belief isn't necessary? If I used the reasoning that you have regarding Romans 10:8-10, I could say that belief isn't necessary. However, that would be absurd, as this passage is not speaking of faith, it is speaking of obedience. So, we need to look at all of the Scriptures to determine what is necessary for salvation, some speak of belief, some speak of works of righteousness, some speak of confession, and some speak of baptism. To take one passage and try to negate the others is not sound reasoning. Jesus said he who love me keeps my commands,

John 14:15-24 ( KJV )
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Fatherís which sent me.

Jesus said, if we love Him and keep His commandments He and the Father will dwell in us. However Jesus also said that he who does not keep my commands, does not love me. He went on to say,

John 15:1-17 ( KJV )
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Fatherís commandments, and abide in his love.
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
These things I command you, that ye love one another.

We see that in order to love Jesus we must keep His commands, He says if we do not keep His commands we do not love Him, if we do not keep His commands, will not remain in remain in Him. John wrote in His epistle,

1 John 5:12 ( KJV )
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

If we do not abide in Christ, then we have no life. Jesus Himself said in order to abide in Him we "must" keep His commandments.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 06:09 PM
Sure, what is it that you are to believe? Also please define what you mean by saved. As I said the Scriptures speak of salvation in three tenses, past, present, and future. I assume you are referring to the past tense, however I await your reply.

If we do not abide in Christ, then we have no life. Jesus Himself said in order to abide in Him we "must" keep His commandments.

Ok, First, Saved is saved. If you are saved thats it. You can not be sort of saved.
Second, ******** a major error in your thinking ****** is referring to scriptures that were before the death & resurrection of Jesus. Jesus was born under the OT & taught under the OT. He taught the LAW. The new law & testament ushering in the new commandment did not happen until Jesus death.
I realize, i did not address every scripture you sited but i think the above idea nullifies them. What do you think?

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 06:12 PM
Ok this is a very simple question. Please give me one scripture that says once we are joined with Jesus that we ARE to produce works in response to the torah. Thanks


Joh 14:15
(15)"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 06:20 PM
Ok, First, Saved is saved. If you are saved thats it. You can not be sort of saved.
Second, ******** a major error in your thinking ****** is referring to scriptures that were before the death & resurrection of Jesus. Jesus was born under the OT & taught under the OT. He taught the LAW. The new law & testament ushering in the new commandment did not happen until Jesus death.
I realize, i did not address every scripture you sited but i think the above idea nullifies them. What do you think?

First, saved is not saved. The Scriptures speak of saved in three tenses, you have been save, you are being save, and you shall be saved. Since there is a future tense, you shall be saved, we see that it is not a completed act.

Second, Jesus teachings are very applicable. Yes, the old covenant was in effect when Jesus taught. However, Jesus taught the teachings of the Kingdom of God which was instituted upon His death. He taught how those who followed Him were to live and act. Notice in Matthew 5-7, Jesus says several times, "you have heard it said", then He says, "but I say", He is giving the new law that those who would follow Him are to follow.

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 06:33 PM
First, saved is not saved. The Scriptures speak of saved in three tenses, you have been save, you are being save, and you shall be saved. Since there is a future tense, you shall be saved, we see that it is not a completed act.

Second, Jesus teachings are very applicable. Yes, the old covenant was in effect when Jesus taught. However, Jesus taught the teachings of the Kingdom of God which was instituted upon His death. He taught how those who followed Him were to live and act. Notice in Matthew 5-7, Jesus says several times, "you have heard it said", then He says, "but I say", He is giving the new law that those who would follow Him are to follow.


When Jesus used "you have heard it said", He refers to Oral Torah. Oral Torah is leavened with men's opinions and interpretations. When Jesus says "It is written, He is referring to His Torah, the one He gave through Moses. To be clear, "Love your neighbor" is a Torah command, but "hate your enemy" is a man made addition which is not found in Torah. Jesus is addressing religion, not Torah, He is challenging the man made laws, not His own Torah. In the 1st Century (and even now) Oral Torah was held above God's written word.

Mat 5:43-44
(43)"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
(44)"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Note in the Scripture above Torah is caps and the man made addition isn't. That's what He is talking about.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 06:33 PM
First, saved is not saved. The Scriptures speak of saved in three tenses, you have been save, you are being save, and you shall be saved. Since there is a future tense, you shall be saved, we see that it is not a completed act.

Second, Jesus teachings are very applicable. Yes, the old covenant was in effect when Jesus taught. However, Jesus taught the teachings of the Kingdom of God which was instituted upon His death. He taught how those who followed Him were to live and act. Notice in Matthew 5-7, Jesus says several times, "you have heard it said", then He says, "but I say", He is giving the new law that those who would follow Him are to follow.

Matthew 5: 48
You are to be perfect as your Father is perfect. I wish you the best of luck at being perfect.

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 09:17 PM
When Jesus used "you have heard it said", He refers to Oral Torah. Oral Torah is leavened with men's opinions and interpretations. When Jesus says "It is written, He is referring to His Torah, the one He gave through Moses. To be clear, "Love your neighbor" is a Torah command, but "hate your enemy" is a man made addition which is not found in Torah. Jesus is addressing religion, not Torah, He is challenging the man made laws, not His own Torah. In the 1st Century (and even now) Oral Torah was held above God's written word.

Mat 5:43-44
(43)"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
(44)"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Note in the Scripture above Torah is caps and the man made addition isn't. That's what He is talking about.

I agree, however that is not my point. My point is, Jesus said love your enemies.

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 09:25 PM
Matthew 5: 48
You are to be perfect as your Father is perfect. I wish you the best of luck at being perfect.

What does that mean? Are you just rejecting that Scripture?


Matthew 5:48 ( KJV )
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Thayerís Greek Definitions

G5046 τέλειος teleios Thayer Definition: 1) brought to its end, finished 2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness 3) perfect 4) that which is perfect 4a) consummate human integrity and virtue 4b) of men 4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

This is the definition of Teleios, the word translated perfect. When we live according to Christ's commands we will be complete, we will be wanting nothing necessary to completeness, we will be mature and of full age. And Luck is not necessary, one only needs to follow Christ.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 09:56 PM
What does that mean? Are you just rejecting that Scripture?


Matthew 5:48 ( KJV )
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Thayerís Greek Definitions

G5046 τέλειος teleios Thayer Definition: 1) brought to its end, finished 2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness 3) perfect 4) that which is perfect 4a) consummate human integrity and virtue 4b) of men 4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

This is the definition of Teleios, the word translated perfect. When we live according to Christ's commands we will be complete, we will be wanting nothing necessary to completeness, we will be mature and of full age. And Luck is not necessary, one only needs to follow Christ.

No, I am saying that Jesus taught that if we wish to go to heaven we must keep the law perfectly. That is totally opposed to the teachings of the Apostles. Jesus taught under the Old Cov. & under the OC know one could be saved. The Apostles teach we can only be saved through Jesus.

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 10:08 PM
No, I am saying that Jesus taught that if we wish to go to heaven we must keep the law perfectly.

If that was true, then this person didn't need a Saviour, and Jesus' sacrifice was in vain:

Luk 1:6
(6) They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.



Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that keeping every one of God's commands results in 'going to heaven.'

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 10:12 PM
No, I am saying that Jesus taught that if we wish to go to heaven we must keep the law perfectly. That is totally opposed to the teachings of the Apostles. Jesus taught under the Old Cov. & under the OC know one could be saved. The Apostles teach we can only be saved through Jesus.

Who taught the apostles????

Are you not a Christian???

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 10:38 PM
If that was true, then this person didn't need a Saviour, and Jesus' sacrifice was in vain:

Luk 1:6
(6) They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.



Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that keeping every one of God's commands results in 'going to heaven.'

I agree Keck, not only that but Scripture specifically tells us that the law could not save.

Hebrews 10:1-2 ( KJV )
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.


Galatians 3:19-22 ( KJV )
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 10:39 PM
Who taught the apostles????

Are you not a Christian???
Those are both interesting questions but that does not dispute that Jesus & the Apostles taught two different things.
Below is a good example of teaching before & after the cross.
You can't have it both ways.

Matthew 6:14-15
14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

1 John 2:12
I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 10:47 PM
Those are both interesting questions but that does not dispute that Jesus & the Apostles taught two different things.
Below is a good example of teaching before & after the cross.
You can't have it both ways.

Matthew 6:14-15
14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

1 John 2:12
I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.

There's no difference in teaching, just your understanding. John writes that their sins are forgiven if they believe in Christ, if they believe in Christ then they must forgive others their sins. Here is the problem you face, you claim Jesus taught different than the apostles however, look how Paul says we are established by God.

Romans 16:25-27 ( KJV )
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Paul says that we are established by his gospel "AND" the preaching of Jesus Christ. This statement by Paul refutes your entire argument.

divaD
Apr 13th 2009, 10:54 PM
Those are both interesting questions but that does not dispute that Jesus & the Apostles taught two different things.
Below is a good example of teaching before & after the cross.
You can't have it both ways.

Matthew 6:14-15
14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

1 John 2:12
I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.




I was meaning to stay out of this, but I see what you are getting at here. So, does then mean that because of what is taught in 1 John 2:12, this makes what Jesus taught in Matthew 6:15 no longer applicable after His death and resurrection?

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 10:55 PM
I agree Keck, not only that but Scripture specifically tells us that the law could not save.

Hebrews 10:1-2 ( KJV )
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.


Galatians 3:19-22 ( KJV )
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

I have no idea why this "works won't get you salvation" argument keeps getting resurrected here - it never was a truth, and never will be a truth and - no one I know believes that to be a truth. It's like saying the sun rises in the east to two people discussing the orbit of Mars. I suppose the argumment sounds eloquent and all, but an argument is only effective if it has application to one or both parties.

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 11:16 PM
I have no idea why this "works won't get you salvation" argument keeps getting resurrected here - it never was a truth, and never will be a truth and - no one I know believes that to be a truth. It's like saying the sun rises in the east to two people discussing the orbit of Mars. I suppose the argumment sounds eloquent and all, but an argument is only effective if it has application to one or both parties.

Diversionary tactic maybe?

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 11:20 PM
Diversionary tactic maybe?

It's a common evangelical teaching for new believers.

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 11:26 PM
It's a common evangelical teaching for new believers.

Yes, I agree with you.

kay-gee
Apr 14th 2009, 04:32 AM
There are no "acts of obedience" subsequent to salvation, other than to continue to believe and follow Christ. Following Christ will result in good works. Whether the things in your list qualify as "good works" might be a matter of some discussion.

You are wrong! Read Romans 6:17 1st Peter 1:22

all the best...

bagofseed
Apr 14th 2009, 05:07 AM
No, I am saying that Jesus taught that if we wish to go to heaven we must keep the law perfectly. That is totally opposed to the teachings of the Apostles. Jesus taught under the Old Cov. & under the OC know one could be saved. The Apostles teach we can only be saved through Jesus.
The only way to keep the law perfectly is not through the law but through Jesus alone.
Jesus caused us to keep the law perfectly through our death with Him on the cross.
We sinned and we died (perfect keeping of the law)
Now dead and free from the written law, God causes us to become a law unto our selves, by writing his law on our hearts.
We are to be perfected in Love through the Holy Spirit of Love Himself in us.

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2009, 06:39 PM
The only way to keep the law perfectly is not through the law but through Jesus alone.
Jesus caused us to keep the law perfectly through our death with Him on the cross.
We sinned and we died (perfect keeping of the law)
Now dead and free from the written law, God causes us to become a law unto our selves, by writing his law on our hearts.
We are to be perfected in Love through the Holy Spirit of Love Himself in us.

According to the following scripture what does it say is written in our hearts?

2 Cor 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

This is Christ not the law, unless you are saying that we are the law.

2 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 18th 2009, 11:32 PM
Regarding the works issue -- Here is a passage that might be helpful for understanding the place that works occupy in the Christian walk:

Eph. 2:4-10 (4)But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5)even when we were dead in tresspasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (6)and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7)that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8)For by grace you have been saved, though faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (9)not of works, lest anyone should boast. (10)For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

If you really break down this passage, it explains it wonderfully:

- We were once dead in tresspasses, but now we are alive in Christ
- Being alive in Christ, it is Christ working in and through us
- He made us alive so that He could do good works through us
- Our works do not save us, but Christ performing good works through us is evidence of our salvation.

Notice verse 10 -- it states that we are Christ's workmanship, and that we were created in Christ Jesus for good works. Jesus Christ saved us so that He could do good works in and through us, which is evidence of our salvation. Notice also that it says that these works were prepared beforehand -- prepared by Christ, who works through us. We do them, but ultimately, they are not our works....they are Christ's, as he was the one who prepared them.

We are not saved by our own works, but our works are evidence of Christ's saving power withiin us -- not our works, but the works of Christ in us. If you realize that it is Christ working in and through us, and not us working on our own, then I think it really clarifies things.

So, then, what kind of works are evidence of this? Not works of the law, (or righteousness, as Paul describes, as we are not establishing our own righteousness through our works -- It is Christ's righteousness in us), but works of faith, hope, and love.....these are the works that are indicative of our salvation.

The fact that we weredead in tresspasses, but are now alive in Christ....I find this to be a perfect parallel of James' statement that faith without works is dead. Our faith is to be alive and vibrant, characterized by good works, done in faith, out of love, and with hopeful expectation.

bagofseed
Apr 19th 2009, 06:28 AM
According to the following scripture what does it say is written in our hearts?

2 Cor 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

This is Christ not the law, unless you are saying that we are the law.

2 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Interesting way to put it "We are the law", the way in us, the nature of God.
The law manifest in human form, according to the will of God, and the working of the Holy Spirit.

bagofseed
Apr 19th 2009, 06:31 AM
Faith perfected (made complete) by the works of faith.

Firstfruits
Apr 19th 2009, 01:52 PM
Interesting way to put it "We are the law", the way in us, the nature of God.
The law manifest in human form, according to the will of God, and the working of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, according to the ministration of Christ.

2 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Remember the parable of the sower? :hmm:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

bagofseed
Apr 19th 2009, 11:54 PM
Yes, according to the ministration of Christ.

2 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Remember the parable of the sower? :hmm:

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Check this out.

To English readers, the epistles may appear more formalized than originally read, due to the process of translation. The writer sought to establish philophronesis, an intimate extension of their relationship as similar as a face to face encounter as possible. The writer hoped to revive the friendship, making the epistle a substitute for the actual writer.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 20th 2009, 12:20 AM
So we endure to the end, then we obtain salvation then works follow? Huh?:confused

Yep, and then after we have endured to the end, and we have received our salvation, then we have to work it out with fear and trembling, so that we can do God's good pleasure.
We then just hope that after all that, when Christ returns, He will not turn and say but 'I never knew you', because you did not pick up snakes, speak with tongues, or drink any deadly thing.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 20th 2009, 12:29 AM
Yet Jesus says the exact opposite. The context is, Jesus sends the apostles to the Jews and tells them they will be persecuted, and the one who endures to the end shall be saved. When did the apostles persecutions end? Was it not at death? I believe all of the apostles except for John were executed and John was imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos. They had to endure persecutions until death. So, the one who endures to the end shall be saved.

Then don't you think it strange that the apostles said 'if YOU continue', and 'if YOU endure'

Should they not have said 'if WE continue' or 'if WE endure'?

Butch5
Apr 20th 2009, 01:21 AM
Then don't you think it strange that the apostles said 'if YOU continue', and 'if YOU endure'

Should they not have said 'if WE continue' or 'if WE endure'?

What are you referencing?

bagofseed
Apr 20th 2009, 01:39 AM
Then don't you think it strange that the apostles said 'if YOU continue', and 'if YOU endure'

Should they not have said 'if WE continue' or 'if WE endure'?


Everything I find says the ONE who endures

BadDog
Apr 20th 2009, 04:34 PM
For those who are saved by grace in Jesus Christ. What, if any, works are we required to do to keep our salvation? What acts of obedience are we required to do? Is there a difference in works of Salvation & works of Obedience?
We are saved by faith in Christ. He did all the work. Now if we must do some work to keep our salvation, then we are not saved through the grace of God, but by works.

Romans 11:6 "But if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."

IOW, grace plus even a little works is works.

BD

bagofseed
Apr 20th 2009, 11:58 PM
We are saved by faith in Christ. He did all the work. Now if we must do some work to keep our salvation, then we are not saved through the grace of God, but by works.

Romans 11:6 "But if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."

IOW, grace plus even a little works is works.

BD
NO!

It is by grace we are saved through Faith.
It is still by grace even when we need to have faith.

Our faith is perfected through our works.
It is still through faith even when our faith need to be perfected by works.

Works is perfecting the faith to receive the grace of God's gift of salvation.

Romans 11:6 is talking about our good works as a just payment for salvation, making it no longer about grace.

Now works is about perfecting faith, not paying or being worthy of salvation.
Jam (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Jam&chapter=2#22) 2:22 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Jam&chapter=2&verse=22)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works
If you look at the word for perfected you will find it has the sense of completion. So you might also say faith is perfectly completed by works.

Then we also move from faith to faith.
Lesser faith completed by works to greater and greater faith.
The whole faith is like a muscle concept.

How much faith is saving faith?

It is the timid, the cowardly who are unbelieving and of little faith because they do not act, they show they do not believe.
It is the overcomer who is believing and overcomes the world by faith in action (works).
With each act of faith, we experience how God is faithful and true and our faith in Him is increased. We grow to trust Him for even more and more.

copper25
Apr 21st 2009, 12:42 AM
The works are manifest from the working of God inside of us.

1 Corinthians 15:10) But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Noone can endure unto the end without God's grace upholding and strengthening them.

Second off,

Matthew 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

By faith works manifest themselves in our life, by the working of God, and that not of ourselves, "But by the grace of God I am what I am"

Am I saying that we don't have responsibility, No. But only by the working of God can these works, doing His will even come into being. Thus concluding

Ephesians 2

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

and look at this verse and the why is explained very well

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 21st 2009, 12:45 AM
Everything I find says the ONE who endures

Heb 10:36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Tomlane
Apr 21st 2009, 01:05 AM
Cooper25 is correct unless I missed something. Our faith is a service we owe to God not for salvation, but because we love Him and he owns us because he bought us with a price.

1 Corinthians 6:20 *For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 7:23 *Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Romans 12:1 *∂I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Then we are told in the next verse how we perform our reasonable service.

2 *And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Please notice not once is water baptism mentioned. If this false doctrine was in connection to salvation as a reasonable service it would have said so somewhere in scripture but it never does.

So by sticking with the one baptism of the spirit Ephesians 4:5 that is given by Christ that is spiritual we are not being conformed to this world and its false system of religion.

One favorite clichť I read on here is if we overcome or endure to the end we will have salvation a favorite for those want to work to have a continuation of their salvation when its very clear the moment we are born again spiritually wither we have works or not we have already overcome the world.

1 John 5:5 *Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 *∂This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

When Christ came by water, it was is natural, physical birth for when He was water baptized it was not to come the world by water but to fulfill all righteousness. A really big difference. And believers in Christ overcome by being in Christ, [spiritual baptism} for Christ has overcome for us. He has done it all for us. Our works have not one iota to do with salvation or to maintain it but as a service only. When person is in the military they don't get kicked out and disowned for not obeying, but they get chastised just as the Lord does with His own. But they still belong to the Lord the same as a military person is still not of his own.

1 John 5:4 *For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1 John 5:5 *Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Tomlane

bagofseed
Apr 21st 2009, 02:52 AM
Heb 10:36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
Poor translation.
The idea is not that they are lacking but that it is required.
There is a sense of clothing your self with endurance.

10:36 For you need endurance in order to do Godís will and so receive what is promised.

bagofseed
Apr 21st 2009, 03:00 AM
Sounds like the works of the Spirit.

The works are manifest from the working of God inside of us.

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 11:35 AM
Check this out.

To English readers, the epistles may appear more formalized than originally read, due to the process of translation. The writer sought to establish philophronesis, an intimate extension of their relationship as similar as a face to face encounter as possible. The writer hoped to revive the friendship, making the epistle a substitute for the actual writer.

Thank you Bagofseed,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BadDog
Apr 21st 2009, 04:17 PM
We are saved by faith in Christ. He did all the work. Now if we must do some work to keep our salvation, then we are not saved through the grace of God, but by works.

Romans 11:6 "But if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."

IOW, grace plus even a little works is works.

BD


NO!

It is by grace we are saved through Faith.
It is still by grace even when we need to have faith.

BD: I don't think you understood what I was saying. Of course we are saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8, 9) Where in what I said indicated otherwise?

Our faith is perfected through our works.
It is still through faith even when our faith need to be perfected by works.

BD: What does this mean? IOW, what does it mean to say that "our faith is perfected through our works"? That is the crux of the matter here.

Works is perfecting the faith to receive the grace of God's gift of salvation.

BD: The tense is not future tense. The way you express it here, as long as we are doing works, our faith is being "perfected" and we are being saved. Chapter/verse on such?

Romans 11:6 is talking about our good works as a just payment for salvation, making it no longer about grace.

BD: I do not agree. Reading it in context, it is referring to Israel seeking God through works...

Romans 11:5-7 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it (the choosing of an elect group of people to save) is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then ? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened

Those who were chosen by God were done so by grace, not by works.


Now works is about perfecting faith, not paying or being worthy of salvation.
Jam (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Jam&chapter=2#22) 2:22 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Jam&chapter=2&verse=22)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works
If you look at the word for perfected you will find it has the sense of completion. So you might also say faith is perfectly completed by works.

BD: OK, this I can agree with more. But the "maturing" of our faith is not for justification, but sanctification. Our justification is what determines if we gain eternal life. When we eventually are with Him we will be fully sanctified, but that will never happen until we receive our new bodies. But justification is when God looks at us and declares us to be without sin, to be righteous.

Agree with what you've said about TELEIOW ("to complete, mature, perfect.")

But we gain eternal life as a result of simply trusting in Him as a little child. That little child may not understand much theology, but he simply relies upon Christ. When we say that our saving faith (justification) must be "perfected" before we can gain eternal life, we turn it into works. The maturing of our faith is part of the sanctification process, not of justification.

Then we also move from faith to faith.
Lesser faith completed by works to greater and greater faith.
The whole faith is like a muscle concept.

BD: Amen, agree with this. WHat I do not agree with is saying that if we do not continue to do good works that we are not "saved" (justified). That turns it into works (Romans 11:6).

How much faith is saving faith?

BD: Faith is faith. There are not two kinds of faith. The issue is not if the faith is the right kind of faith, or if it is enough faith. Jesus said if we had the faith of a grain of mustard seed... The question was not "how much faith," but do you have faith? The question then becomes whether or not we have followed up our faith by doing works, which God planned for us. (Ephesians 2:10) IOW, the issue is whether or not we put our faith into practice, but the faith is simply... faith. Let's not re-define it into something else... into works. Faith is simply relying upon someone to save us, it is believing the promise given. It is not a work to simply say, "Help, I can't do this. I can't save myself. I realize that and rely completely upon You." To do otherwise is to say, "I can't quite save myself... but you and me working together God... I just need a little help." That is not faith. That is still relying upon yourself, and it does not save because it is still works.

Should we naturally then want to follow Him as a result of His saving us? Of course. But the gaining of eternal life is simply by faith. It is a gift.

It is the timid, the cowardly who are unbelieving and of little faith because they do not act, they show they do not believe.
It is the overcomer who is believing and overcomes the world by faith in action (works).
With each act of faith, we experience how God is faithful and true and our faith in Him is increased. We grow to trust Him for even more and more.
BagOfSeed,

I don't agree with the underlined above. What happens is instead of relying upon God to save us, we try to just ask Him to help us out a little. Now to say that the result of faith is a reliance upon the Saving Person, I agree. If I really believe I will rely upon Him.

It is also true that God regenerated us so that we would do good works. Amen! But the purpose and results of those works is not the gaining of eternal life - salvation. That is completely and purely a gift, by faith alone. I am sure you do not intend to, but you are turning it into works.

When Jesus was approached by Nicodemus in John 3. Jesus recognized that he did not understand this concept, so He said to him, "You must be born from above." Then later He gave an illustration of when the Israelites were in the wilderness and being bitten by poisonous snakes. God had Moses place a brass image of a snake in the middle of the camp, and anyone who wanted to be "saved" simply walked up to the pole and looked at it.

He didn't do anything... he just looked. That is a picture of faith - relying upon God to save. It is the faith of a little child - the kind that saves. Other "kinds" of faith are not really faith at all. Jesus used this illustration to show what it means to rely upon God to save (faith) - to be born from above:

John 3:14-16 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

BD

BadDog
Apr 21st 2009, 04:22 PM
Poor translation.
The idea is not that they are lacking but that it is required.
There is a sense of clothing your self with endurance.

10:36 For you need endurance in order to do Godís will and so receive what is promised. Exactly... only "receiving what is promised" is not referring to the gift of eternal life- that has already been received. It is referring to inheritance - becoming a joint-heir of Christ.

BD

Partaker of Christ
Apr 21st 2009, 11:35 PM
Poor translation.
The idea is not that they are lacking but that it is required.
There is a sense of clothing your self with endurance.

10:36 For you need endurance in order to do Godís will and so receive what is promised.

But it still does not say, the 'one' or 'we'


Heb 10:36

(ALT) For you* have need of patient endurance, so that having done the will of God, you* shall receive the promise.

(ASV) For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.

(Darby) For ye have need of endurance in order that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.

(EMTV) For you have need of endurance, so that having done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

(ESV) For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

(KJV) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

(LITV) For you have need of patience, that having done the will of God you may obtain the promise.

(NASB) For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

(NET) For you need endurance in order to do God's will and so receive what is promised.

(NKJV) For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

(RSV) For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.

(RV) For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.

(YLT) for of patience ye have need, that the will of God having done, ye may receive the promise,

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:35 AM
What does it mean for us to do something that is pleasing in the sight of God?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

bagofseed
Apr 23rd 2009, 04:15 AM
Well I think my position on OSAS is clear.
I believe it to be a lie.
Not that you can loose salvation.
Salvation was completely provided for at the cross.
Those of us who hold fast to the faith, will never be lost
If we keep our faith in the one who is faithful, we will not be disappointed.

He is faithful to complete it (complete what?)

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