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Athanasius
Apr 10th 2009, 10:40 PM
“It is clear, then, that the man who does not live according to man but according to God must be a lover of the good and therefore a hater of evil; since no man is wicked by nature but is wicked only by some defect, a man who lives according to God owes it to the wicked men that his hatred be perfect, so that, neither hating the man because of his corruption nor loving the corruption because of the man, he should hate the sin but love the sinner. For, once the corruption has been cured, then all that is left should be loved and nothing remains to be hated.”
-Augustine, City of God, p. 304
I was involved in another discussion and inevitably it was said that God hates the sin but loves the sinner. I initially disagreed with this statement (as I do 50% of the time) however now I'm leaning towards agreeing with it, perhaps with a bit of clarification (as I do the other 50% of the time). All of this has once again forced me to realize that hey, I'm not entirely sure where I stand in regards to this 'mantra'.

The majority of the arguments I've heard in favour of God hating sin and the sinner most often come in the form of Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Leviticus 20:23, Proverbs 6:16-19, Hosea 9:15, Romans 1:18, John 3:36 etc.

D.A. Carson has said:
“The cliché, God hates the sin but love the sinner, is false on the face of it and should be abandoned. Fourteen times in the first fifty Psalms alone, we are told that God hates the sinner, His wrath is on the liar, and so forth. In the Bible, the wrath of God rests both on the sin (Romans 1:18ff) and on the sinner (John 3:36).”
-Carson, The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God, p. 70.
I've read or heard others who agree with Carson; Paul Washer, Mark Driscoll, Matthew Slick, etc. It occurs to me that this view that God hates sin and sinners is the view those who are 'reformed' in their theology most often take.

On the other side of the fence, however, we have people such as William Lane Craig who teach and believe (as far as I understand them) that it is inconsistent with the character and love of God for God to not love the sinner. Craig points to Luke 6:32-33, "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same." He was speaking against the Islamic conception of God in saying this. However in doing so was highlighting God's unconditional love. Craig teaches and believes (as far as I've heard him) that for God to hate a group of people would be to violate God's unconditional love. In regards to this view I've seen John 3:16, 1 John 4:8, Romans 5:6-8, Matthew 23:37, etc.

I've also heard it said that God perfectly hates and perfectly loves sinners at the same time. This seems contradictory to me though and I haven't heard it advanced all that often.

Now perhaps I'm misunderstanding the use of the word hate. With all of this said, however, I'd like some thoughts.

RockedByRequiem
Apr 10th 2009, 11:01 PM
My thoughts on this are:

Think of it this way....We are ALL given the opportunity to accept this gift, and different people will accept this gift at different points in time. And all that really separates us from non-belivers is just that, accepting that gift, and putting your faith in Christ. God wants us all to come to repentance, so how could He hate us?

Homosexuality is a good example of this. You see these militant extremist "Christians" picketing and declaring "God hates fags" and things like that. In reality, those people have just as much right to salvation as we do. We all wallowed in sin at one point in time.

It is another one of those things that Jesus single-handedly changed. Because of Christ, all those laws regarding putting sinners to death have been abolished. Jesus bridged the gap, so to speak, and made it possible for people who commit even the most vile sins to repent and be forgiven. Before Christ, those people were pretty much doomed. That's what makes this all so beautiful.

God loves all of us. And sin is sin is sin.....We are all sinners, but God made it possible for us to make peace with Him. Before Christ, there was no peace with God, and that is why the OT says that God hates the sinner. All that has changed, through One Man.

Does this help at all?

divaD
Apr 10th 2009, 11:02 PM
“It is clear, then, that the man who does not live according to man but according to God must be a lover of the good and therefore a hater of evil; since no man is wicked by nature but is wicked only by some defect, a man who lives according to God owes it to the wicked men that his hatred be perfect, so that, neither hating the man because of his corruption nor loving the corruption because of the man, he should hate the sin but love the sinner. For, once the corruption has been cured, then all that is left should be loved and nothing remains to be hated.”
-Augustine, City of God, p. 304
I was involved in another discussion and inevitably it was said that God hates the sin but loves the sinner. I initially disagreed with this statement (as I do 50% of the time) however now I'm leaning towards agreeing with it, perhaps with a bit of clarification (as I do the other 50% of the time). All of this has once again forced me to realize that hey, I'm not entirely sure where I stand in regards to this 'mantra'.

The majority of the arguments I've heard in favour of God hating sin and the sinner most often come in the form of Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Leviticus 20:23, Proverbs 6:16-19, Hosea 9:15, Romans 1:18, John 3:36 etc.

D.A. Carson has said:
“The cliché, God hates the sin but love the sinner, is false on the face of it and should be abandoned. Fourteen times in the first fifty Psalms alone, we are told that God hates the sinner, His wrath is on the liar, and so forth. In the Bible, the wrath of God rests both on the sin (Romans 1:18ff) and on the sinner (John 3:36).”
-Carson, The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God, p. 70.
I've read or heard others who agree with Carson; Paul Washer, Mark Driscoll, Matthew Slick, etc. It occurs to me that this view that God hates sin and sinners is the view those who are 'reformed' in their theology most often take.

On the other side of the fence, however, we have people such as William Lane Craig who teach and believe (as far as I understand them) that it is inconsistent with the character and love of God for God to not love the sinner. Craig points to Luke 6:32-33, "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same." He was speaking against the Islamic conception of God in saying this. However in doing so was highlighting God's unconditional love. Craig teaches and believes (as far as I've heard him) that for God to hate a group of people would be to violate God's unconditional love. In regards to this view I've seen John 3:16, 1 John 4:8, Romans 5:6-8, Matthew 23:37, etc.

I've also heard it said that God perfectly hates and perfectly loves sinners at the same time. This seems contradictory to me though and I haven't heard it advanced all that often.

Now perhaps I'm misunderstanding the use of the word hate. With all of this said, however, I'd like some thoughts.



Here's something to ponder. When the sinner gets thrown into the lake of fire to be tortured forever and ever, would you still conclude that God also loves the sinner? That sure seems a bit bizarre to do that to someone you claim to love. Would you or could you torture anyone you claim to love? My conclusions...God obviously hates the sinner also, otherwise he couldn't torture billions and billions of them without end in the lake of fire.

fuzzi
Apr 10th 2009, 11:09 PM
I've seen fellowship broken over this issue. :B

God has said that He hates sin, and He also has said that He hates certain people, like Esau.

I believe that God loved the world, past tense, but when they rejected His Son, that put an end to it. He loves you enough to still offer you salvation, but if you reject Him and what He did for you, then He is not obligated to love you anymore. That's just my take on it.

Athanasius
Apr 10th 2009, 11:27 PM
Think of it this way....We are ALL given the opportunity to accept this gift, and different people will accept this gift at different points in time. And all that really separates us from non-belivers is just that, accepting that gift, and putting your faith in Christ. God wants us all to come to repentance, so how could He hate us?

'This gift,' as you put it, I think could be viewed in two ways. In the first way it's available only to the elect - those who God foreknew and predestined. In the second way available to everyone and this everyone has the ability to accept or reject 'this gift' and what would follow are the natural consequences of their choice.

I think in regard to this first paragraph it could be said that God wants all of us to come to repentance but that does not mean all will. Some may, according to the will of God, be precluded. I mean this in the sense of those who might point to Romans 9:15, "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." If God is no respecter of persons and will have mercy on whom [he] will have mercy, does that then not mean that those who God doesn't mercy will be essentially damned? Doesn't this seem to imply that God's love is conditional?



It is another one of those things that Jesus single-handedly changed. Because of Christ, all those laws regarding putting sinners to death have been abolished. Jesus bridged the gap, so to speak, and made it possible for people who commit even the most vile sins to repent and be forgiven. Before Christ, those people were pretty much doomed. That's what makes this all so beautiful.

Why were they doomed? If those people (before Christ) turned to God I don't see why they wouldn't have been forgiven. After all, weren't the sacrifices of the Old Testament merely acts that pointed towards the future crucifixion and resurrection of the Messiah? This would mean that the sacrifices in themselves achieved nothing, right?



God loves all of us. And sin is sin is sin.....We are all sinners, but God made it possible for us to make peace with Him. Before Christ, there was no peace with God, and that is why the OT says that God hates the sinner. All that has changed, through One Man.

Does this help at all?

It's an answer but as you've presently explained it I disagree. Will have to wait and see what you reply to me and we'll go from there.


Here's something to ponder. When the sinner gets thrown into the lake of fire to be tortured forever and ever, would you still conclude that God also loves the sinner? That sure seems a bit bizarre to do that to someone you claim to love. Would you or could you torture anyone you claim to love? My conclusions...God obviously hates the sinner also, otherwise he couldn't torture billions and billions of them without end in the lake of fire.

Is Hell punishment or is Hell torture? I have absolutely no problem concluding that a loving God will punish sinners for eternity (as I would see that as being in line with the justice of God). However when you mention the word torture I would probably take issue and say, "No, I couldn't conclude that". With that said however I'm more inclined to believe Hell is punishment, not torture. Do you have scripture that says contrary?

This may be theologically way out in left field, however. If we can never pay the debt of sin and the unbeliever to God says, "I can do it on my own". Then is Hell in some way the unbelievers 'attempt' to pay their debt; Hell being eternal in part because we can never pay our own debt? Now maybe this is a question for another topic so if it is lets try not to detract from the current conversation.

Returning to what you said, I'm left asking: why did God send His Son to die for us while we were sinners if God hates sinners? Are you reformed in your theology and believe in the elect and this is the backdrop against which you've said all of these things? Otherwise I'm interested in why God would loves the things He hates?

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 10th 2009, 11:30 PM
Here's something to ponder. When the sinner gets thrown into the lake of fire to be tortured forever and ever, would you still conclude that God also loves the sinner? That sure seems a bit bizarre to do that to someone you claim to love. Would you or could you torture anyone you claim to love? My conclusions...God obviously hates the sinner also, otherwise he couldn't torture billions and billions of them without end in the lake of fire.

If God didn't love the sinner, I doubt that He would keep the invitation open to accept His salvation.

Athanasius
Apr 10th 2009, 11:31 PM
I've seen fellowship broken over this issue. :B

God has said that He hates sin, and He also has said that He hates certain people, like Esau.

I believe that God loved the world, past tense, but when they rejected His Son, that put an end to it. He loves you enough to still offer you salvation, but if you reject Him and what He did for you, then He is not obligated to love you anymore. That's just my take on it.


As far as I understand God hating Esau I believe the word 'hate' here refers to doesn't love as much as Jacob. However, if I understand you correctly then what you're saying is that God loved us formerly (before the fall?) and still offers that escape from the consequences of sin (salvation). However because we're in rebellion to Him we're under his wrath, hated by God (until the point where we might accept 'His gift')?

apothanein kerdos
Apr 10th 2009, 11:33 PM
Why are hate and love mutually exclusive?

Athanasius
Apr 10th 2009, 11:38 PM
Why are hate and love mutually exclusive?

Well I don't think they are (I'm not trying to suggest it either). When I approach the question I think, "If God hates us why the sacrifice? Surely He must love us, hence the sacrifice" However in discussing and thinking about this further I think I would say what I said to the previous poster. Hopefully I'm not mincing words: God loved us (original creation?), hence His sacrifice. However, while we're in a state of sin (rejecting God) we're subject to his wrath and hate. Does that make sense or am I being weird?

That or what's starting to make more sense: He loves us while hating us.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 10th 2009, 11:40 PM
Well I don't think they are (I'm not trying to suggest it either). When I approach the question I think, "If God hates us why the sacrifice? Surely He must love us, hence the sacrifice" However in discussing and thinking about this further I think I would say what I said to the previous poster. Hopefully I'm not mincing words: God loved us (original creation?), hence His sacrifice. However, while we're in a state of sin (rejecting God) we're subject to his wrath and hate. Does that make sense or am I being weird?


I just sent this to you in a PM:

He still loves us, even while hating us. :)

If a husband walks in on his wife cheating on him, he HATES her (and justifiably so)...but he still loves her at the same time. If there is a chance for reconciliation (if he offers forgiveness that is) then he'll take it. Why? Because he still loves her.

We view love and hate as diametrically opposed to each other. I view hate as a subset of love (in some situations). When love has been violated in a heinous way, hate comes from it, but love is still present so long as the offer of reconciliation and forgiveness are there.

With God, He has offered both. Thus, He hates us because we have rebelled against Him, we have "cheated" on Him; but He loves us because of who we are in His image, hence why He offers grace.

Athanasius
Apr 10th 2009, 11:42 PM
I just sent this to you in a PM:

He still loves us, even while hating us. :)

If a husband walks in on his wife cheating on him, he HATES her (and justifiably so)...but he still loves her at the same time. If there is a chance for reconciliation (if he offers forgiveness that is) then he'll take it. Why? Because he still loves her.

We view love and hate as diametrically opposed to each other. I view hate as a subset of love (in some situations). When love has been violated in a heinous way, hate comes from it, but love is still present so long as the offer of reconciliation and forgiveness are there.

With God, He has offered both. Thus, He hates us because we have rebelled against Him, we have "cheated" on Him; but He loves us because of who we are in His image, hence why He offers grace.

I just read it :)
That actually makes a lot of sense, putting it that way.

fuzzi
Apr 10th 2009, 11:52 PM
As far as I understand God hating Esau I believe the word 'hate' here refers to doesn't love as much as Jacob. However, if I understand you correctly then what you're saying is that God loved us formerly (before the fall?) and still offers that escape from the consequences of sin (salvation). However because we're in rebellion to Him we're under his wrath, hated by God (until the point where we might accept 'His gift')?
I see the word 'hate' meaning 'hate'. ;)

God so loved the world, all people as a group, that he offered His Son to die for our sins. That's a pretty big love to offer when people say all manner of evil against Him, and sacrifice their children to idols, and turn away from Him.

How many times did God lose His patience with Israel, and threaten to wipe them from the face of the earth, but yet He loved them? How many times did He save them from their enemies, and continue to show patience and longsuffering with their actions?

I think that God's hate and love are something that we, as His creatures, cannnot possibly fully comprehend, at least not until Heaven. However, I still believe that He meant 'hate' when He said 'hate'.

BTW, I like your sig. :)

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 10th 2009, 11:54 PM
I just sent this to you in a PM:

He still loves us, even while hating us. :)

If a husband walks in on his wife cheating on him, he HATES her (and justifiably so)...but he still loves her at the same time. If there is a chance for reconciliation (if he offers forgiveness that is) then he'll take it. Why? Because he still loves her.

We view love and hate as diametrically opposed to each other. I view hate as a subset of love (in some situations). When love has been violated in a heinous way, hate comes from it, but love is still present so long as the offer of reconciliation and forgiveness are there.

With God, He has offered both. Thus, He hates us because we have rebelled against Him, we have "cheated" on Him; but He loves us because of who we are in His image, hence why He offers grace.

You're speaking in terms of emotion. If a man walks in on his wife cheating, he is feeling very strong emotions of hate, which overpower the love at that point -- His love is still there, but it is masked by the hatyred which he feels at that time....after all if, he didn't love her, he probably wouldn't care if she were cheating on him, right? He might be more concerned with whether dinner was in the oven or not.

God does not operate in terms of emotional impulses, whereas, we do. Love for him is an action rather than an emotion (although it can be both, but the love that he has for the sinner is not an affectionate kind as it is for His children).

I'm with Xel'Nega -- I thought that hate meant loving less. God's love is not purely emotional....can the same be said of His hatred? When the Bible says that God hated Esau, was it an emotionally-driven anger? What is His wrath driven by....emotion, or righteousness?

I'm thinking that righteous wrath is different from an emotional fury.

When God casts a person out of His presence, and they go to hell, I don't think it is based on any emotion at all. It's a display of righteousness. At that point, He is indifferent.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 12:00 AM
I see the word 'hate' meaning 'hate'. ;)

God so loved the world, all people as a group, that he offered His Son to die for our sins. That's a pretty big love to offer when people say all manner of evil against Him, and sacrifice their children to idols, and turn away from Him.

How many times did God lose His patience with Israel, and threaten to wipe them from the face of the earth, but yet He loved them? How many times did He save them from their enemies, and continue to show patience and longsuffering with their actions?

I think that God's hate and love are something that we, as His creatures, cannnot possibly fully comprehend, at least not until Heaven. However, I still believe that He meant 'hate' when He said 'hate'.

BTW, I like your sig. :)


Thanks :) (Signature)

I understand what you're saying with this, I've another question based on what you last said, "He loves you enough to still offer you salvation, but if you reject Him and what He did for you, then He is not obligated to love you anymore. That's just my take on it." With what Apothanein said I can understand God loving us while hating us, however I wonder how that translates to eternity. I firstly don't believe God is obligated to love us (I wouldn't say His love is an obligated love in the sense of He has to for 'X' reason). It seems like that's what you've said (...then He is not obligated to love you anymore) so I find myself initially in disagreement with you. Does God still love us even while we might be in Hell in punishment?

divaD
Apr 11th 2009, 12:05 AM
Is Hell punishment or is Hell torture? I have absolutely no problem concluding that a loving God will punish sinners for eternity (as I would see that as being in line with the justice of God). However when you mention the word torture I would probably take issue and say, "No, I couldn't conclude that". With that said however I'm more inclined to believe Hell is punishment, not torture. Do you have scripture that says contrary?

This may be theologically way out in left field, however. If we can never pay the debt of sin and the unbeliever to God says, "I can do it on my own". Then is Hell in some way the unbelievers 'attempt' to pay their debt; Hell being eternal in part because we can never pay our own debt? Now maybe this is a question for another topic so if it is lets try not to detract from the current conversation.

Returning to what you said, I'm left asking: why did God send His Son to die for us while we were sinners if God hates sinners? Are you reformed in your theology and believe in the elect and this is the backdrop against which you've said all of these things? Otherwise I'm interested in why God would loves the things He hates?



According to the Christian view of the lake of fire, souls will be burning forever and ever. How can this not be torture? If someone were to tie me up, then beat on one of my hands with a sledge hammer for hours, this would be unthinkable torture. Being engulfed in flames forever and ever, this torture would be billions and billions times more unthinkable. So, with that in mind, how can one conclude that God hates the sin but loves the sinner. It doesn't add up to me.

Keep in mind, I'm talking about the unrepentant sinner that ends up in the lake of fire, not the repentant sinner who gets saved. Obviously God loves the repentant sinner, but I don't see how one can say that He also loves the unrepentant sinner, when their fate is to be engulfed in flames forever and ever.

Also keep in mind, and perhaps it is my fault, since I didn't clarify my position, but this is not how I see things, it's how I conclude that many others see these things, according to what they believe God does to the soul that sins, He tortures them forever and ever, because simply put, being engulfed in flames can be nothing but torture. So based on that, if true, God hates the unrepentant sinner.

And as far as me being Reformed...no way.

fuzzi
Apr 11th 2009, 12:06 AM
Thanks :) (Signature)
You're most welcome. :D


I understand what you're saying with this, I've another question based on what you last said, "He loves you enough to still offer you salvation, but if you reject Him and what He did for you, then He is not obligated to love you anymore. That's just my take on it." With what Apothanein said I can understand God loving us while hating us, however I wonder how that translates to eternity. I firstly don't believe God is obligated to love us (I wouldn't say His love is an obligated love in the sense of He has to for 'X' reason). It seems like that's what you've said (...then He is not obligated to love you anymore) so I find myself initially in disagreement with you. Does God still love us even while we might be in Hell in punishment?
Maybe 'obligated' wasn't the best choice of word to use. I agree that He is not 'obligated' to do anything.

About your second question, I am not sure. I think it would be best if I studied and meditated on that tonight, and try to get back to you later. Fair enough?

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 12:08 AM
About your second question, I am not sure. I think it would be best if I studied and meditated on that tonight, and try to get back to you later. Fair enough?

Definitely fair enough. That's the point, ask and learn ;)

apothanein kerdos
Apr 11th 2009, 12:09 AM
You're speaking in terms of emotion. If a man walks in on his wife cheating, he is feeling very strong emotions of hate, which overpower the love at that point -- His love is still there, but it is masked by the hatyred which he feels at that time....after all if, he didn't love her, he probably wouldn't care if she were cheating on him, right? He might be more concerned with whether dinner was in the oven or not.

You're still speaking in terms that "hate" and "love" are opposed to each other. :)


God does not operate in terms of emotional impulses, whereas, we do. Love for him is an action rather than an emotion (although it can be both, but the love that he has for the sinner is not an affectionate kind as it is for His children).

That's a good Enlightenment view of God, but not a good Biblical one. How many times do we see Him enraged with anger, to the point of wanting to wipe out all the Jews? Look at Him on Mt. Siani where He becomes so furious that He tells Moses He's going to kill every Hebrew and start over with Moses. God has emotions, He just doesn't sin in His emotions and His emotions are always justifiable.

Regardless, hatred is an action as well. Both are states of phenomenological being that can sometimes lead to action. In fact, if they are never actualized, then they don't matter.

An act of hatred would be to kill someone our of your hated for that person. God does this.

We forget that He is holy, thus though we sin in our hatred, He doesn't. He can both love and hate at the same time because the two are not mutually exclusive. In all reality, all "hate" means is to have an extreme dislike for someone - why is it impossible for God to feel this?

Is there Scripture that supports the idea that God doesn't hate sinners (but loves them at the same time)?

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 11th 2009, 12:10 AM
Does God still love us even while we might be in Hell in punishment?

I don't really think so. I think, at that point, He is indifferent. It is more about righteous judgment than love or hate. I'm not really sure if he has any feelings for us whatsoever at that point.

At that point, are we even in the image on God anymore? Perhaps this is why He loves us -- because we were made in His image.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 12:24 AM
I don't really think so. I think, at that point, He is indifferent. It is more about righteous judgment than love or hate. I'm not really sure if he has any feelings for us whatsoever at that point.

At that point, are we even in the image on God anymore? Perhaps this is why He loves us -- because we were made in His image.

I see no reason to believe we wouldn't still be in the image of God, even while in Hell (or to be theologically correct, the lake of fire). I'm inclined to believe that God does not stop loving those who are in Hell, even while they are now fully under God's wrath.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 11th 2009, 12:26 AM
You're still speaking in terms that "hate" and "love" are opposed to each other. :)

I am?! Hatred is an emotional response, it is not? Doesn't it take some sort of an emotional involvement with someone or something to incite hatred?

Hatred can exist along with love, but it's a dichotomy.


That's a good Enlightenment view of God, but not a good Biblical one.

Well, then, I'd say it's not very good at all, then, wouldn't you?


How many times do we see Him enraged with anger, to the point of wanting to wipe out all the Jews? Look at Him on Mt. Siani where He becomes so furious that He tells Moses He's going to kill every Hebrew and start over with Moses. God has emotions, He just doesn't sin in His emotions and His emotions are always justifiable.

Okay -- I think I'm following you.

What you are describing is God's anger, and I believe that we can both agree that it is righteous, but in any of these accounts, does god say that He actually hates Israel, or is this just implied?

If He hated Israel, then He wouldn't have listened to Moses.


Regardless, hatred is an action as well. Both are states of phenomenological being that can sometimes lead to action. In fact, if they are never actualized, then they don't matter.

An act of hatred would be to kill someone our of your hated for that person. God does this.

Killing someone does not always imply hatred. When God killed Achin, did it ever state that He hated him? I don't think so....He was practicing righteous judgment.


We forget that He is holy, thus though we sin in our hatred, He doesn't. He can both love and hate at the same time because the two are not mutually exclusive. In all reality, all "hate" means is to have an extreme dislike for someone - why is it impossible for God to feel this?

So, then, would you consider hatred a sin? Jesus said that he who hates his brother in his heart has already committed murder, which is sin. That's because we are talking in terms of emotion here.

Obviously, there is righteous hatred, because if not, God would be sinning by hating Esau. God smote people in His wrath, but Scripture doesn't say it's because He "hated" them.

Our hatred is a lot different than God's hatred. I guess righteous hatred could be compared when you read a book about people who are being martyred in other countries. You hate those people for doing that, yet you still pray for their salvation.


Is there Scripture that supports the idea that God doesn't hate sinners (but loves them at the same time)?

I don't know -- Is there?

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 11th 2009, 12:28 AM
I see no reason to believe we wouldn't still be in the image of God, even while in Hell (or to be theologically correct, the lake of fire). I'm inclined to believe that God does not stop loving those who are in Hell, even while they are now fully under God's wrath.

Really?! :confused:confused

Can you please explain how this is possible? I can't make sense of this at all.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 12:32 AM
Really?! :confused:confused

Can you please explain how this is possible? I can't make sense of this at all.

Well, if we're both in agreement that now we're in the image of God and loved (and hated) by God then how does that change once we 'enter eternity'? That's the question I'm asking.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 11th 2009, 12:53 AM
Okay -- well, I guess then that would depend on what it means to be made in the image of God.

I guess I hadn't really put much thought into it, but the fact that we are spiritual beings. When we die apart from Christ, we are in a state of permanent spiritual death, and we have no hope of fellowship with God.

While we are alive, there is still that hope of being restored to fellowship, and our spirit brought to life. For someone who dies apart from Christ, there is no hope for a spiritual awakening, so to speak, so they will always be dead spiritually, and no longer in the image of God.

I'm sorry of this is a weak answer; like I said, I hadn't really thought about it.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 11th 2009, 01:14 AM
I am?! Hatred is an emotional response, it is not? Doesn't it take some sort of an emotional involvement with someone or something to incite hatred?

Hatred can exist along with love, but it's a dichotomy.It does, but emotions are based on something deeper as well.



Okay -- I think I'm following you.

What you are describing is God's anger, and I believe that we can both agree that it is righteous, but in any of these accounts, does god say that He actually hates Israel, or is this just implied?

If He hated Israel, then He wouldn't have listened to Moses.

That's reading quite a bit into the word "hate." As I stated, "hate" means to have an extreme dislike. Though God hates, He also loves, meaning He is open to discussion due to His willingness to forgive.


Killing someone does not always imply hatred. When God killed Achin, did it ever state that He hated him? I don't think so....He was practicing righteous judgment.Does it need to? We have multiple other verses saying that God hates people. :)


So, then, would you consider hatred a sin? Jesus said that he who hates his brother in his heart has already committed murder, which is sin. That's because we are talking in terms of emotion here.

Obviously, there is righteous hatred, because if not, God would be sinning by hating Esau. God smote people in His wrath, but Scripture doesn't say it's because He "hated" them.

Our hatred is a lot different than God's hatred. I guess righteous hatred could be compared when you read a book about people who are being martyred in other countries. You hate those people for doing that, yet you still pray for their salvation.Exactly (on the last paragraph).

Notice that Jesus said if we hate our brothers - likewise, it is arbitrary hate. I hate BTK for what he did to people, but I also love him enough to pray for his salvation.

Even then, I would advocate that as humans we do our best to avoid hatred because we are imperfect in its practice.


I don't know -- Is there?Not that I've found. I've found verses saying He loves us and others saying He hates us. So either it's a contradiction and we have a problem, or somehow the two emotions/actions can coexist.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 11th 2009, 01:17 AM
We're still in the image of God in Hell...but still fallen. This idea that we somehow feel guilty in Hell isn't really found in the Bible. Another reason Hell is eternal - people don't repent in Hell.

Notice how in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man still wants Lazarus to serve him! He shows zero repentance for how he treated Lazarus.

Thus, we are still in God's image and I believe He still loves us, but we are still in rebellion - only at this point, it is permanent.

chad
Apr 11th 2009, 01:22 AM
"God hates the sin but loves the sinner" - Yes, I would agree to this to some extent.

Would it be more accurate to say God hates the sin, and loves the sinner who repents of thier sins through Christ Jesus.

For Christians who have accepted Christ as thier saviour and been forgiven of thier sins, there is still the issue of Sanctification, and Living Holy Lives.

For those who have not yet recieved salvation through forgiveness of sins, God loves them so much that he has provided a way for them to recieve forgiveness (Through Christ Jesus), but there still remains Judgement for those who do not repent of thier sins.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 01:28 AM
"God hates the sin but loves the sinner" - Yes, I would agree to this to some extent.

Would it be more accurate to say God hates the sin, and loves the sinner who repents of thier sins through Christ Jesus.

I'm of the opinion that this would make God's love conditional (predicated upon our accepting Him or not). As was said previously; love and hate aren't mutually exclusive. You can love someone and at the same time, for some reason, hate that person (the example of a wife cheating on the husband; the husband still loves the wife but hates her for the act). This cliche then is neither here nor there. God hates sin and God loves and hates the sinner. He loves the sinner in that He sent his Son but the sinner is also subject to the hate of God because the sinner is in rebellion to God.

Dani H
Apr 11th 2009, 01:31 AM
Is hate the opposite of love?

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 01:33 AM
Is hate the opposite of love?

I believe that's how most people view it, however I would say no.

amazzin
Apr 11th 2009, 01:36 AM
D.A. Carson has said:

“The cliché, God hates the sin but love the sinner, is false on the face of it and should be abandoned. Fourteen times in the first fifty Psalms alone, we are told that God hates the sinner, His wrath is on the liar, and so forth. In the Bible, the wrath of God rests both on the sin (Romans 1:18ff) and on the sinner (John 3:36).”
-Carson, The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God, p. 70.


Finally someone I agree with

Dani H
Apr 11th 2009, 01:36 AM
I believe that's how most people view it, however I would say no.


So would I.

I'm more inclined to say that the opposite of love is lust.

OkieRob
Apr 11th 2009, 01:39 AM
How about thinking of it this way? This may sound "trite" but God doesn't send us to hell; we send ourselves by rejecting Him. So He offers salvation and loves us dearly and WE are the ones who reject Him and send ourselves to hell. He can still love us even while we are in hell while understanding He didn't send us there -we sent ourselves. At the final judgment He may use His authority to condemn us to the lake of fire but it is on us for sending ourselves there. Does that make sense? Someone has probably already brought that up....

OkieRob

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 01:41 AM
Finally someone I agree with

It appears I'll be agreeing with him as well.


So would I.

I'm more inclined to say that the opposite of love is lust.

That's interesting. When I think of lust I automatically assume something of a sexual nature. 1 Corinthians 13 would illustrate well for me the idea that lust is the opposite of love.

Dani H
Apr 11th 2009, 01:58 AM
That's interesting. When I think of lust I automatically assume something of a sexual nature. 1 Corinthians 13 would illustrate well for me the idea that lust is the opposite of love.

I'm really thinking more along the lines of 1 John - lust of the world, lust of the eyes. We can't love and lust at the same time, because love wants to give, lust wants to take. God so loved the world that He gave ... all lust is ever concerned with is gimme gimme gimme, mine mine mine and it doesn't care who or what it robs to get what it wants. It's not just sexual, but all-encompassing, really. Which is why covetousness is such a huge part of the 10 commandments, methinks. Same principle, because covetousness/lust is never satisfied with what is rightfully ours and always wants more, like a neverending black hole.

As far as hate ... God has the right to hate who and what He very well chooses. He is love, and so obviously that doesn't preclude Him from hating, according to Scripture.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 02:10 AM
I'm really thinking more along the lines of 1 John - lust of the world, lust of the eyes. We can't love and lust at the same time, because love wants to give, lust wants to take. God so loved the world that He gave ... all lust is ever concerned with is gimme gimme gimme, mine mine mine and it doesn't care who or what it robs to get what it wants. It's not just sexual, but all-encompassing, really. Which is why covetousness is such a huge part of the 10 commandments, methinks. Same principle, because covetousness/lust is never satisfied with what is rightfully ours and always wants more, like a neverending black hole.

As far as hate ... God has the right to hate who and what He very well chooses. He is love, and so obviously that doesn't preclude Him from hating, according to Scripture.

Can't say much more than I'd have to agree with you, never really thought of lust being the opposite of love - the word as I've known it always seems to be used in a sexual sort of way, never would have crossed my mind.

bagofseed
Apr 11th 2009, 02:11 AM
Consider sin as the opposite of love.

God's hate come from Love.

The fires of hell come from Love.

Its all about the motive, and if its not love, its not God, so its sin.

All emotions can come from good or evil motives, which is a good reason why we should not be quick to judge.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 02:14 AM
Consider sin as the opposite of love.

God's hate come from Love.

The fires of hell come from Love.

Its all about the motive, and if its not love, its not God, so its sin.

All emotions can come from good or evil motives, which is a good reason why we should not be quick to judge.

That was a whole lot of disconnected weirdness. I'm not sure I would consider sin the opposite of love; it might be contrary to but is it the opposite of love? I'm also going to have to say that the fires of Hell don't come from love? The fires of Hell come from God's hate.

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 03:17 AM
Let me introduce this concept. God doe's hate sin. God sent Jesus to us to pay for the sins of man once & for all. God no longer deals with man in the terms of sin. He deals with us on our relationship with Jesus.
There are no big sins or little sins, only sin. We are ALL guilty. If God judged us on our sin, not one person would go to heaven period.
Doe's God hate the sinner? No. He has forgotten our sin.
Are those clothed in Jesus righteousness as Holy as Jesus himself? Yes we are!

divaD
Apr 11th 2009, 03:33 AM
Let me introduce this concept. God doe's hate sin. God sent Jesus to us to pay for the sins of man once & for all. God no longer deals with man in the terms of sin. He deals with us on our relationship with Jesus.
There are no big sins or little sins, only sin. We are ALL guilty. If God judged us on our sin, not one person would go to heaven period.
Doe's God hate the sinner? No. He has forgotten our sin.
Are those clothed in Jesus righteousness as Holy as Jesus himself? Yes we are!



This might explain the saved sinner, but what about the unsaved sinner? Where does this concept fit in with that one? I indeed believe God loves the repentant sinner. It's the unrepentant sinner that I have my doubts about. How can God punish anyone for eternity, yet still love them?

Hell is defined as eternal damnation. That doesn't sound pleasant nor does it sound like one can suffer eternal damnation, yet at the same time be loved by God.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 03:56 AM
Doe's God hate the sinner? No. He has forgotten our sin.


Are you saying then that everyone, regardless of their believing in Jesus, has been covered 'by the blood' and are no longer looked upon as being 'sinners' because God, through Jesus, has forgotten our sin?


This might explain the saved sinner, but what about the unsaved sinner? Where does this concept fit in with that one? I indeed believe God loves the repentant sinner. It's the unrepentant sinner that I have my doubts about. How can God punish anyone for eternity, yet still love them?

Hell is defined as eternal damnation. That doesn't sound pleasant nor does it sound like one can suffer eternal damnation, yet at the same time be loved by God.

Read some of the previous replies to this thread? Seems you're just returning to what you said previously.

bagofseed
Apr 11th 2009, 04:45 AM
That was a whole lot of disconnected weirdness. I'm not sure I would consider sin the opposite of love; it might be contrary to but is it the opposite of love?

It's like the opposite of straight is crooked.
Crooked takes many forms but is always the opposite of straight.

Or a more biblical example would be of sin missing the mark and love hitting the bulls eye.


I'm also going to have to say that the fires of Hell don't come from love? The fires of Hell come from God's hate.
SOS 8:6 Set me as a seal upon thy heart, As a seal upon thine arm: For love is strong as death; Jealousy is cruel as Sheol; The flashes thereof are flashes of fire, A very flame of Jehovah.

Deu 4:24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire; he is a jealous God.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 07:35 AM
It's like the opposite of straight is crooked.
Crooked takes many forms but is always the opposite of straight.

Or a more biblical example would be of sin missing the mark and love hitting the bulls eye.

Seems to me like a false analogy. However, as I've not slept in a week and it's again 3:30 I'll refrain from posting further for the time being.



SOS 8:6 Set me as a seal upon thy heart, As a seal upon thine arm: For love is strong as death; Jealousy is cruel as Sheol; The flashes thereof are flashes of fire, A very flame of Jehovah.

Deu 4:24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire; he is a jealous God.

You're equivocating jealousy with love?

bagofseed
Apr 11th 2009, 08:37 AM
Seems to me like a false analogy. However, as I've not slept in a week and it's again 3:30 I'll refrain from posting further for the time being.

Get some sleep.



You're equivocating jealousy with love?
What do you mean?
Which word is being given more then one meaning in a way that makes the statement a fallacy?

Are you referring to amphiboly?
Even the translators admit there is ambiguity do to the syntax, resulting in questions of whether the fire should be attributed to love or jealousy.

My opinion in such cases in the scripture is that the ambiguity is intentional, that it was intended to apply to both.

On the more direct side, true jealousy comes from love, along with an aspect of right or possession, otherwise it would be envy.

So we see the very flame of the Lord, as flashes of fire being associated with jealousy and that fiery jealousy in turn associated with Hell.

But we also see that same fire associated with God's Love and that fiery love being as strong as death.


Zep 1:18 (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=zep+1:18&version=nsn&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)Neither (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01571&version=nas) * (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03808&version=nas) their silver (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03701&version=nas) nor (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01571&version=nas) their gold (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02091&version=nas) Will be able (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03201&version=nas) to deliver (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05337&version=nas) them On the day (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03117&version=nas) of the LORD'S (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=nas) wrath (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05678&version=nas); And all (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03605&version=nas) the earth (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0776&version=nas) will be devoured (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0398&version=nas) In the fire (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0784&version=nas) of His jealousy (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07068&version=nas), For He will make a complete (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03617&version=nas) end (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03617&version=nas), Indeed (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0389&version=nas) a terrifying (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0926&version=nas) one, Of all (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03605&version=nas) the inhabitants (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03427&version=nas) of the earth (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0776&version=nas).

chad
Apr 11th 2009, 09:13 AM
God loves us, but it's the sin that seperates us.


I'm of the opinion that this would make God's love conditional (predicated upon our accepting Him or not). As was said previously; love and hate aren't mutually exclusive. You can love someone and at the same time, for some reason, hate that person (the example of a wife cheating on the husband; the husband still loves the wife but hates her for the act). This cliche then is neither here nor there. God hates sin and God loves and hates the sinner. He loves the sinner in that He sent his Son but the sinner is also subject to the hate of God because the sinner is in rebellion to God.

matthew7and1
Apr 11th 2009, 09:40 AM
mark: If God didn't love the sinner, I doubt that He would keep the invitation open to accept His salvation.


couldna' said it better myself!

Also: someone said that hell is punishment and not torture. I whole heartedly agree. It's a simple matter of action and consequence. You don't accept salvation, you go to hell. Really a case of you can bring a horse to water but can't make him drink. Those who choose not to take the living water of Christ, choose to die.



bag of seed: It's like the opposite of straight is crooked.
Crooked takes many forms but is always the opposite of straight.
Or a more biblical example would be of sin missing the mark and love hitting the bulls eye.

I'm finding this analogy faulty also because a crooked road can take you to the same destination as a straight one. And as far as missing the bullseye, just the fact that we are human makes it impossible to ALWAYS hit the bulls eye. We will sin, it is inherent in our nature. We can also repent and then start hitting bullseyes again, but no human is perfect. Sinlessness can not be achieved.

In general I believe that God loves the sinner because we ALL sin. If you argue that God hates the sinner, then he hates every last one of us. I, personally feel that I serve a loving and just God. One who exacts punishment not out of hatred, but out of love. Just as I myself punish my son. It pains me to deprive him or give him unsavory consequences, but because I love him (obviously not even as perfectly as God loves us) I exact those consequences. IMO God is perfectly just because He loves us all perfectly, all of us sinners. He sees us here on earth unable to be perfect and loves us so that he sent His one and only son to die for our sins. He saw us dying and offers us the gift of life every day, every moment, every one. I am sorry that I do not have bible quotes for this as I don't have my materials with me: But somewhere I read, probably here that hell is merely not being in the presence of God. It is being away from Him. Each sin we commit we step away from the presence of God. But when we repent and accept Jesus and strive to be one of those after God's own heart, we are there in His love-light again. It jst seems a matter of choice. You can choose to be with God or not. If you choose to be absent from God and Jesus, you in fact are choosing hell. Now, God indeed gave us free will. It doesn't make sense to day that God hates the sinner and that is why they go to hell because there isn't any hate involved in the situation. We in fact choose our destiny: heaven or hell.

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 10:56 AM
This might explain the saved sinner, but what about the unsaved sinner? Where does this concept fit in with that one? I indeed believe God loves the repentant sinner. It's the unrepentant sinner that I have my doubts about. How can God punish anyone for eternity, yet still love them?

Hell is defined as eternal damnation. That doesn't sound pleasant nor does it sound like one can suffer eternal damnation, yet at the same time be loved by God.
The unsaved sinner doe's not know Jesus. If you don't know Jesus then God does not know you. If God does not know you then you are not getting in Heaven.
If God loving us was based on if we were sinners then none would be loved by God, saved or unsaved. We all sin until the day we die. Jesus was the atonement for the sins of the world, for all time.
Example.
Name the worst person in the history of the world. Lets just say A. Hitler, God has forgiven his sins. Jesus died for his sins. Did AH have Jesus living in him, guiding him? No. AH did not know Jesus & God did not know him.

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 11:35 AM
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins
1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.
1 John 5:11
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 11:57 AM
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
Luke 5:20
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."
1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Hebrews 8:12
For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 10:17
Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 11:58 AM
AND FINALY

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 01:37 PM
What do you mean?
Which word is being given more then one meaning in a way that makes the statement a fallacy?

Even the translators admit there is ambiguity do to the syntax, resulting in questions of whether the fire should be attributed to love or jealousy.

Well I used the wrong word, I had meant equate, not equivocation. However, the inability to discern, due to ambiguity (according to you), syntax, love and jealousy would seem to me to be an equivocation?



On the more direct side, true jealousy comes from love, along with an aspect of right or possession, otherwise it would be envy.

Okay, but jealousy isn't love; that's too much of a deconstruction.

divaD
Apr 11th 2009, 02:34 PM
Since I have been primarily posting with a one tracked mind in this thread,
I'll try another approach, has anyone ever considered the following as an option?

Could God simply hate those that hate Him? Let's face it, not everyone loves God. So, is God required to love them in return, even tho some may bitterly hate Him?

matthew7and1
Apr 11th 2009, 02:39 PM
Since I have been primarily posting with a one tracked mind in this thread,
I'll try another approach, has anyone ever considered the following as an option?

Could God simply hate those that hate Him? Let's face it, not everyone loves God. So, is God required to love them in return, even tho some may bitterly hate Him?

I don't think that He would.
Why? Because people are God's favorite and He even loves satan. So if God loves the one who hates him most, I doubt he would hate people....

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 02:39 PM
Could God simply hate those that hate Him? Let's face it, not everyone loves God. So, is God required to love them in return, even tho some may bitterly hate Him?

I would say yes, otherwise God's love is conditional.

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 02:40 PM
God loves everyone, every single person! It is up to us to make the decision to love him back. The only way to love him back is by excepting his son & the work he did on our behalf.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 11th 2009, 02:41 PM
God loves everyone, every single person! It is up to us to make the decision to love him back. The only way to love him back is by excepting his son & the work he did on our behalf.


But the Bible is also clear that He hates those in rebellion to Him. Those who haven't accepted His gift or repented.

Why is it so hard to see that He both loves and hates the sinner? If He didn't hate the sinner, then He wouldn't have wrath. Wrath doesn't come form justice - it comes from hate.

matthew7and1
Apr 11th 2009, 02:44 PM
But the Bible is also clear that He hates those in rebellion to Him. Those who haven't accepted His gift or repented.

Why is it so hard to see that He both loves and hates the sinner? If He didn't hate the sinner, then He wouldn't have wrath. Wrath doesn't come form justice - it comes from hate.
I think that this is the truest answer. I know that it is possible to hate someone only when you love them...

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 02:59 PM
But the Bible is also clear that He hates those in rebellion to Him. Those who haven't accepted His gift or repented.

Why is it so hard to see that He both loves and hates the sinner? If He didn't hate the sinner, then He wouldn't have wrath. Wrath doesn't come form justice - it comes from hate.
Post a scripture that says God hates sinners & we will discuss it.:)

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 03:01 PM
Post a scripture that says God hates sinners & we will discuss it.:)

Such scripture has already been postedd (read the OP). There's more than just what I posted, however, it's a starting point. God does hate sinners, by the way. You're viewing hate incorrectly, that's the difficulty.

divaD
Apr 11th 2009, 03:04 PM
I would say yes, otherwise God's love is conditional.



Are you saying yes to the former or the latter? I'm assuming it's the latter. If so...



Psalms 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.



A cpl of things I notice here. God has enemies, and David claims to hate those that hate God. So, where did David's hatred of God's enemies come from? It seems to me that he is justified in his hatred of God's enemies, since one gets the impression that the Lord doesn't seem to be rebuking him for it. At least that's the impression I get.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 11th 2009, 03:06 PM
Post a scripture that says God hates sinners & we will discuss it.:)

It's in the original post.

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 03:16 PM
Such scripture has already been postedd (read the OP). There's more than just what I posted, however, it's a starting point. God does hate sinners, by the way. You're viewing hate incorrectly, that's the difficulty.
First we live under the new testament. So using scriptures from the OT cannot be used to say God hates sinners because Jesus paid the price for sin.

Romans 1:18

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

John 3:36

36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

What is the wrath of God? It's the punishment for rejecting Jesus. You do not go to heaven.

Please tell me what i have missed in regard to God hating sinners?

apothanein kerdos
Apr 11th 2009, 03:19 PM
First we live under the new testament. So using scriptures from the OT cannot be used to say God hates sinners because Jesus paid the price for sin.

Romans 1:18

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

John 3:36

36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

What is the wrath of God? It's the punishment for rejecting Jesus. You do not go to heaven.

Please tell me what i have missed in regard to God hating sinners?

So the Old Testament isn't inspired?

That's absurd. So God used to hate sinners, but no longer does?

The Old Testament is just as inspired as the New and just as true at the New. The ONLY thing that changed was the ceremonial laws. That's it. If you treat the OT in the way you're treating it, then you might as well toss out the NT. You can't have a NT without the OT. If the OT no longer applies, then the NT is heretical and mythical and shouldn't be followed.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 03:25 PM
Are you saying yes to the former or the latter? I'm assuming it's the latter. If so...

A cpl of things I notice here. God has enemies, and David claims to hate those that hate God. So, where did David's hatred of God's enemies come from? It seems to me that he is justified in his hatred of God's enemies, since one gets the impression that the Lord doesn't seem to be rebuking him for it. At least that's the impression I get.

I'm saying God loves those who hate Him (hense Jesus). As was said earlier; why do you believe hatred and love to be mutually exclusive? God loves us unconditionally, He also hates (at the same time) those who are in rebellion to Him.

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2009, 03:28 PM
“It is clear, then, that the man who does not live according to man but according to God must be a lover of the good and therefore a hater of evil; since no man is wicked by nature but is wicked only by some defect, a man who lives according to God owes it to the wicked men that his hatred be perfect, so that, neither hating the man because of his corruption nor loving the corruption because of the man, he should hate the sin but love the sinner. For, once the corruption has been cured, then all that is left should be loved and nothing remains to be hated.”
-Augustine, City of God, p. 304
I was involved in another discussion and inevitably it was said that God hates the sin but loves the sinner. I initially disagreed with this statement (as I do 50% of the time) however now I'm leaning towards agreeing with it, perhaps with a bit of clarification (as I do the other 50% of the time). All of this has once again forced me to realize that hey, I'm not entirely sure where I stand in regards to this 'mantra'.

The majority of the arguments I've heard in favour of God hating sin and the sinner most often come in the form of Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Leviticus 20:23, Proverbs 6:16-19, Hosea 9:15, Romans 1:18, John 3:36 etc.

D.A. Carson has said:
“The cliché, God hates the sin but love the sinner, is false on the face of it and should be abandoned. Fourteen times in the first fifty Psalms alone, we are told that God hates the sinner, His wrath is on the liar, and so forth. In the Bible, the wrath of God rests both on the sin (Romans 1:18ff) and on the sinner (John 3:36).”
-Carson, The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God, p. 70.
I've read or heard others who agree with Carson; Paul Washer, Mark Driscoll, Matthew Slick, etc. It occurs to me that this view that God hates sin and sinners is the view those who are 'reformed' in their theology most often take.

On the other side of the fence, however, we have people such as William Lane Craig who teach and believe (as far as I understand them) that it is inconsistent with the character and love of God for God to not love the sinner. Craig points to Luke 6:32-33, "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same." He was speaking against the Islamic conception of God in saying this. However in doing so was highlighting God's unconditional love. Craig teaches and believes (as far as I've heard him) that for God to hate a group of people would be to violate God's unconditional love. In regards to this view I've seen John 3:16, 1 John 4:8, Romans 5:6-8, Matthew 23:37, etc.

I've also heard it said that God perfectly hates and perfectly loves sinners at the same time. This seems contradictory to me though and I haven't heard it advanced all that often.

Now perhaps I'm misunderstanding the use of the word hate. With all of this said, however, I'd like some thoughts.

We think love and hate are opposites but they are not. Hate is an emotion but agape (love) is much more than an emotion. We confuse agape love with (phileo) brotherly love which is often based in emotion.

It is entirely possible and consistent with God that he both hate the sin and the sinner, and love the sinner at the same time. The opposite of love is not hate, but rather, self centeredness (See 1 Cor 13).

IMO, God does hate the sin and the sinner. But he also loves the sinner so much that he sent his Son to die for him.

Think of it this way... have you ever met a married couple that were totally in love? Yet, both of them will admit to feeling some very strong emotions against one another at some point in their marriage. Little kids can be far more blunt when they say to a parent "I hate you" and storm off. Then the next day they will say "I love you". It is definitely possible for love and hate to reside together within the same heart and towards the same person.

This is how I view it.

Grace and peace,

Mark

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 03:28 PM
So the Old Testament isn't inspired?

That's absurd. So God used to hate sinners, but no longer does?

The Old Testament is just as inspired as the New and just as true at the New. The ONLY thing that changed was the ceremonial laws. That's it. If you treat the OT in the way you're treating it, then you might as well toss out the NT. You can't have a NT without the OT. If the OT no longer applies, then the NT is heretical and mythical and shouldn't be followed.

Well, I guess we will just have to through this passage out then.
Galatians 5:18

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 03:29 PM
First we live under the new testament. So using scriptures from the OT cannot be used to say God hates sinners because Jesus paid the price for sin.

Romans 1:18

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

John 3:36

36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

What is the wrath of God? It's the punishment for rejecting Jesus. You do not go to heaven.

Please tell me what i have missed in regard to God hating sinners?

Just to add in addition to Apothanein said, Jesus' paying the price for sin doesn't only include those people who died after Jesus' crucifixion and subsequent resurrection. It also includes those people who lived before Jesus (hence the sacrifices of the OT being 'mere' pointers to Christ). From the point of view of God, they were covered as well.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 11th 2009, 03:32 PM
Well, I guess we will just have to through this passage out then.
Galatians 5:18

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
:B


That's what I said! But, and I'm adding this for emphasis:

THE OLD TESTAMENT ISN'T THE LAW - "THE LAW" REFERS TO ONE PART OF THE OLD TESTAMENT

Is that clear enough?

So again, those passages all deal with how God hates sinners. He loves them, He did back then as well, but He still hates sinners now, just like He did back then as well. If He didn't, then there wouldn't be such a thing as wrath.

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2009, 03:47 PM
D.A. Carson has said:
“The cliché, God hates the sin but love the sinner, is false on the face of it and should be abandoned. Fourteen times in the first fifty Psalms alone, we are told that God hates the sinner, His wrath is on the liar, and so forth. In the Bible, the wrath of God rests both on the sin (Romans 1:18ff) and on the sinner (John 3:36).”
-Carson, The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God, p. 70.
I've read or heard others who agree with Carson; Paul Washer, Mark Driscoll, Matthew Slick, etc. It occurs to me that this view that God hates sin and sinners is the view those who are 'reformed' in their theology most often take.

On the other side of the fence, however, we have people such as William Lane Craig who teach and believe (as far as I understand them) that it is inconsistent with the character and love of God for God to not love the sinner.

Another thought... Often we let our religious systems get in the way of what scripture says. Once we make a conclusion about sovereignty, we are tempted to interpret scripture in light of that regardless of what it says. We base things on our conclusions going forward instead of changing our conclusions. The same on other aspects like concluding that God is love and thinking we know what that means.

So the arminian concludes that love and hate are mutually exclusive and thus, gets rid of the verses about how God hates and says things like "love the sinner but hate the sin" when God says he hates the sinner.

The calvinist concludes God does in deed hate the sinner and concludes that all whom he loves, he saves. Thus changing the meaning of verses where God says he loves the world into he loves the elect.

Anyway, it just seems to me we often are more beholden to our doctrinal systems than we are the scriptures. When we read a verse that doesn't line up with our previous conclusions, we tend to explain away the scripture instead of changing our conclusions. The walk of faith is not always easy. Often God requires us to change our minds about things or else we will remain in darkness. At the heart of repentance is a change of mind.

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 03:57 PM
:B


That's what I said! But, and I'm adding this for emphasis:

THE OLD TESTAMENT ISN'T THE LAW - "THE LAW" REFERS TO ONE PART OF THE OLD TESTAMENT

Is that clear enough?

So again, those passages all deal with how God hates sinners. He loves them, He did back then as well, but He still hates sinners now, just like He did back then as well. If He didn't, then there wouldn't be such a thing as wrath. The old testament is the law & Gods relationship to his people,The Jews, Everything that happened in the OT was for one purpose & that was to prepare for the Messiah. Jesus is the culmination of the OT, he completed it. God judges us on a new set of standards after the cross! Those standards do not include sin.

Ok, what is this wrath you are referring & how does God determine who gets this wrath?

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2009, 03:59 PM
The old testament is the law & Gods relationship to his people,The Jews, Everything that happened in the OT was for one purpose & that was to prepare for the Messiah. Jesus is the culmination of the OT, he completed it. God judges us on a new set of standards after the cross! Those standards do not include sin.

Ok, what is this wrath you are referring & how does God determine who gets this wrath?

The NT says the OT was given as an example for us. It also mentions that Jesus was preached in the OT.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 04:43 PM
The old testament is the law & Gods relationship to his people,The Jews, Everything that happened in the OT was for one purpose & that was to prepare for the Messiah.

It's incorrect to turn everything in the Old Testament into something about Jesus...

Vhayes
Apr 11th 2009, 04:50 PM
It's incorrect to turn everything in the Old Testament into something about Jesus...
What else could it/should it be about? Not wanting to get into the fray on this one but Genesis to Maps is ALL about Jesus from my reading and understanding.
V

divaD
Apr 11th 2009, 05:15 PM
It's incorrect to turn everything in the Old Testament into something about Jesus...



Ouch!...Actually, it would be incorrect not to. I have to admit, you're the first professed Christian that I have personally ever heard come to these conclusions. Are you forgetting about Genesis 3:15?

Personally, I would have to agree with embankmentlb's conclusions, because they're spot on.


But I did notice that you italicized 'everything'. With that in mind, I'm certain that you could get picky and show many verses that wouldn't be directly related to Jesus, but that wasn't the point embankmentlb was making in the first place, IMO.

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2009, 05:25 PM
Ouch!...Actually, it would be incorrect not to. I have to admit, you're the first professed Christian that I have personally ever heard come to these conclusions. Are you forgetting about Genesis 3:15?

Personally, I would have to agree with embankmentlb's conclusions, because they're spot on.


But I did notice that you italicized 'everything'. With that in mind, I'm certain that you could get picky and show many verses that wouldn't be directly related to Jesus, but that wasn't the point embankmentlb was making in the first place, IMO.

Would God hate something in the OT that he loves in the NT? Assuming of course, that love and hate are mutually exclusive. (I don't think they are mutually exclusive.)

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 05:27 PM
What else could it/should it be about? Not wanting to get into the fray on this one but Genesis to Maps is ALL about Jesus from my reading and understanding.
V

What I was trying to say was that as Christians we read the Old Testament as filtered through the New Testament with Jesus as the backdrop. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that I'm just saying it could lead to the possibility of making everything about Jesus one way or another. I mean this in the extreme sense. Prophecies for Israel? Nope, Jesus. Promises to Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc.? Nope, Jesus. History of Israel? Nope, Jesus. The Genesis account? All Jesus... Etc, etc, etc.

I should probably have been clearer. I don't disagree with what was said, the Old Testament definitely points to Jesus.



But I did notice that you italicized 'everything'. With that in mind, I'm certain that you could get picky and show many verses that wouldn't be directly related to Jesus, but that wasn't the point embankmentlb was making in the first place, IMO.

Though I suppose I brought the nitpicking onto myself...

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2009, 05:29 PM
What I was trying to say was that as Christians we read the Old Testament as filtered through the New Testament with Jesus as the backdrop. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that I'm just saying it could lead to the possibility of making everything about Jesus one way or another. I mean this in the extreme sense. Prophecies for Israel? Nope, Jesus. Promises to Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc.? Nope, Jesus. History of Israel? Nope, Jesus. The Genesis account? All Jesus... Etc, etc, etc.

It's a duality Xel. It is ALL about Jesus. But that doesn't mean it's not a prophesy about Israel or that it's not historical or moral, etc. Jesus is in all the law and the prophets. But so are many other things. They exist together.

fuzzi
Apr 11th 2009, 06:03 PM
Does God still love us even while we might be in Hell in punishment?

About your second question, I am not sure. I think it would be best if I studied and meditated on that tonight, and try to get back to you later. Fair enough?

Definitely fair enough. That's the point, ask and learn ;)
I could not find any reference to how the Lord feels about those in Hell.

However, we do know how He reacted to unbelievers who claimed to have done works for Him:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Those who do not do the Lord's will (getting saved, accepting Christ's sacrifice) and are headed for Hell, are told to depart, that He, God, never knew them.

I see no reference to His love for those who reject His Son's sacrifice, so I'd lean more towards indifference or hate towards those in Hell.

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 07:31 PM
Jesus Jesus Jesus, it's all about Jesus!

chad
Apr 11th 2009, 08:32 PM
In the Revelation of Jesus Christ, Given to John, by God in Chapter 2:6 it says:

(Rev 2:6 NIV) But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

(Rev 2:6 KJV) But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Who were the Nicolatians?

{Definition from the Holman Bible Dictionary}

NICOLAITANS (Nihk oh lay' ituhns)

A Heretical group in the early church who taught immorality and idolatry. They are condemned in Revelation 2:6,15 for their practices in Ephesus and Pergamon. Thyatira apparently had resisted the false prophecy they preached (Rev. 2:20-25). The Nicolaitans have been linked to the type of heresy taught by Balaam (Num. 25:1-2; 2 Pet. 2:15), especially the pagan feasts and orgies that they apparently propagated in the first-century church.


Jesus really does hate the sin.

Athanasius
Apr 11th 2009, 10:30 PM
It's a duality Xel. It is ALL about Jesus. But that doesn't mean it's not a prophesy about Israel or that it's not historical or moral, etc. Jesus is in all the law and the prophets. But so are many other things. They exist together.

I think the problem is I've expressed myself very poorly with the last few comments. That or I don't quite understand what it was I was writing.

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 11:44 PM
Lets take a look at what was going on in the OT. Jews trying to please God by works. They worked their behinds off to try & please God. Did any gain favor with God? NO. A hand full did but it was by their Faith alone. Please read Hebrews 11 for a list of those who were saved in the OT. All the rest did not please God. How did the hand full find favor? They did so by putting faith in the Messiah who they never saw or met. For this they came to truly know God.
So why would we want to be like the Jews who were complete failures at worshiping God? Why? Not me, I follow Jesus.


Romans 10:21
But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

Hebrews 10:7-9

7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.' "[a] 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.

Hebrews 11

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12

1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Athanasius
Apr 12th 2009, 12:05 AM
Lets take a look at what was going on in the OT. Jews trying to please God by works. They worked their behinds off to try & please God. Did any gain favor with God? NO. A hand full did but it was by their Faith alone. Please read Hebrews 11 for a list of those who were saved in the OT. All the rest did not please God. How did the hand full find favor? They did so by putting faith in the Messiah who they never saw or met. For this they came to truly know God.
So why would we want to be like the Jews who were complete failures at worshiping God? Why? Not me, I follow Jesus.

Romans 10:21
But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

Hebrews 10:7-9

7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.' "[a] 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.

Hebrews 11

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12

1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

I don't see how this relates to your previous assertion that sinners are not under the wrath of God and hated because of their sin and rebellion?

Vhayes
Apr 12th 2009, 02:04 AM
For God so loved the world.

He loved us, even when we were sinners, that He gave His only Son.

That certainly sounds like an overarching love to me.

Athanasius
Apr 12th 2009, 02:07 AM
For God so loved the world.

He loved us, even when we were sinners, that He gave His only Son.

That certainly sounds like an overarching love to me.

And I agree with that. However it seems to me scripture is also clear that God's hate and wrath is upon the sinner who is in rebellion. Love and hate aren't mutually exclusive to each other; God can love us while at the same time hating us (as per Apothanein's illustration earlier).

Vhayes
Apr 12th 2009, 02:13 AM
God hates sin. God gave the payment for ALL sin. What we do with Jesus is the determining factor, not how much or how little sin we have/had in our lives.

Even the Old Testament stated that God made the sun to shine on the righteous and the unrighteous.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 12th 2009, 02:17 AM
The old testament is the law & Gods relationship to his people,The Jews, Everything that happened in the OT was for one purpose & that was to prepare for the Messiah. Jesus is the culmination of the OT, he completed it. God judges us on a new set of standards after the cross! Those standards do not include sin.

Ok, what is this wrath you are referring & how does God determine who gets this wrath?


So where's your scriptural evidence for this?

Does this mean I can sleep with a goat now, considering such an action is only forbidden in the OT?

Does it mean God hasn't created the world?

This is what happens when people who have never read the OT try to comment on it...

Athanasius
Apr 12th 2009, 02:22 AM
God hates sin. God gave the payment for ALL sin. What we do with Jesus is the determining factor, not how much or how little sin we have/had in our lives.

Even the Old Testament stated that God made the sun to shine on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Sure, and as the New Testament says it rains on the just and the unjust (but chiefly on the just because the unjust stole the just's umbrella:rolleyes:). I mean I agree with you so far so do we actually disagree? Do you believe sinners aren't under the wrath / hate of God? If this is the case I don't quite understand how what you're saying shows that God doesn't hate the sinner. Showing God loves the sinner isn't the same as showing He doesn't hate the sinner.

Brother Mark
Apr 12th 2009, 02:30 AM
Hate is an emotion. Scripture doesn't anywhere say not to hate. Love is not an emotion. Scripture commands us to love.

Love and hate are not mutually exclusive as they aren't even on the same planet. It's like comparing iron and clay. Those are not opposites as they really aren't comparable.

The opposite of hate is not love. The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is selfishness (1 Cor. 13) or put more simply as Dani said earlier, it is lust. The opposite of hate, IMO, is indifference. (Though I could probably change my mind on what the opposite of hate would be as I am not fully convinced yet about it's opposite.)

Vhayes
Apr 12th 2009, 02:37 AM
Hate is an emotion. Scripture doesn't anywhere say not to hate. Love is not an emotion. Scripture commands us to love.

Love and hate are not mutually exclusive as they aren't even on the same planet. It's like comparing iron and clay. Those are not opposites as they really aren't comparable.

The opposite of hate is not love. The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is selfishness (1 Cor. 13) or put more simply as Dani said earlier, it is lust. The opposite of hate, IMO, is indifference. (Though I could probably change my mind on what the opposite of hate would be as I am not fully convinced yet about it's opposite.)
Good post, Brother Mark - I would say the opposite of hate is selflessness.

Brother Mark
Apr 12th 2009, 02:40 AM
Good post, Brother Mark - I would say the opposite of hate is selflessness.

Perhaps. And thanks for the kudos. ;)

What do you mean by selflessness? Could you expound on that as I don't understand what you are getting at.

Thanks!

Vhayes
Apr 12th 2009, 02:45 AM
Perhaps. And thanks for the kudos. ;)

What do you mean by selflessness? Could you expound on that as I don't understand what you are getting at.

Thanks!
People always want to say they take up their cross (usually meaning their spouse, mother-in-law, job whatever) daily. To me, that's erroneous. What does the cross mean? It means to die to self. I die daily. It is a burden to carry that cross (with 'me' on it) and die to "ME".

When I can put the needs of others before the needs of me without thinking about it (as did Christ) then I will know I have perfected living in this world with the correct attitude. Needless to say, that has not happened.

Thanks for asking and allowing me to expand my thought -
V

Brother Mark
Apr 12th 2009, 02:48 AM
People always want to say they take up their cross (usually meaning their spouse, mother-in-law, job whatever) daily. To me, that's erroneous. What does the cross mean? It means to die to self. I die daily. It is a burden to carry that cross (with 'me' on it) and die to "ME".

When I can put the needs of others before the needs of me without thinking about it (as did Christ) then I will know I have perfected living in this world with the correct attitude. Needless to say, that has not happened.

Thanks for asking and allowing me to expand my thought -
V

OK. I understand. But if the opposite of hate is selflessness, of which God is, then how can he feel hate? Just thinking aloud here.:hmm:

It would seem to me that love and selflessness are very close to one another. So that even if we feel hate for someone, we still take up our cross and die to our feelings. Thus, God can feel hate, and still die for those people he has harsh feelings for because also loves them.

Vhayes
Apr 12th 2009, 03:01 AM
OK. I understand. But if the opposite of hate is selflessness, of which God is, then how can he feel hate? Just thinking aloud here.:hmm:

It would seem to me that love and selflessness are very close to one another. So that even if we feel hate for someone, we still take up our cross and die to our feelings. Thus, God can feel hate, and still die for those people he has harsh feelings for because also loves them.
I think we are now getting into areas that are actually the integrity of God - His love, yes. But also His sense of justice and His total righteousness. But that may be for another thread...
V

bagofseed
Apr 12th 2009, 09:04 AM
The opposite of hate, IMO, is indifference. (Though I could probably change my mind on what the opposite of hate would be as I am not fully convinced yet about it's opposite.)
I was thinking tolerance, similar to indifference but with an aspect of acceptance or embrace.

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