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manichunter
Apr 11th 2009, 07:47 AM
Are we saying Torah is not Scripture, Scripture is not His Word, and all of His Word is not God Inspired. Scripture is Scripture from IN the beginning to Come Lord Quickly. It is all inspired by Him as His Word, to include Torah, which are His instructions to us for holy living.

Matt 24 32 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:32&sr=1&t=nas) "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:33&sr=1&t=nas) so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:34&sr=1&t=nas) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:35&sr=1&t=nas) "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Lu 21: (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:33&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -29 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:29&sr=1&t=nas) Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:30&sr=1&t=nas) as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:31&sr=1&t=nas) "So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:32&sr=1&t=nas) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:33&sr=1&t=nas) "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Yes is does coincide with the passage you gave and give witness to it.

What has been spoken from the mouth of God is just as eternal as Him.

Where does God word come from, where does his commandments come from, and where does his instructions/torah come from.
Mt 4:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+4:4&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
2Ti 3:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+3:16&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Even your words and thoughts are eternal (scary uh)
Mt 12:36 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+12:36&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

It is funny how we chop up the text in the Bible to say that some of it is not eternal and God breathed, or somehow torah is not Scripture and considered equally the Word of God.
1Ch 15:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1ch+15:15&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - The sons of the Levites carried the ark of God on their shoulders with the poles thereon, as Moses had commanded according to the word of the LORD.
Isa 2:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+2:3&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mic+4:2&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. It sounds like torah is Scripture, hence His word from His very own mouth. Heaven and earth is not going away until the King of King reigns in
His kingdom in the new heaven and earth.

Exodus 201 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:1&sr=1&t=nas) Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:2&sr=1&t=nas) "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:3&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:4&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:5&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:6&sr=1&t=nas) but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:7&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:8&sr=1&t=nas) "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:9&sr=1&t=nas) "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:10&sr=1&t=nas) but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:11&sr=1&t=nas) "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:12&sr=1&t=nas) "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:13&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not murder.
14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:14&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not commit adultery.
15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:15&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not steal.
16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:16&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:17&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:18&sr=1&t=nas) All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:19&sr=1&t=nas) Then they said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die." 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:20&sr=1&t=nas) Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin." 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:21&sr=1&t=nas) So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was.
22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:22&sr=1&t=nas) Then the LORD said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, `You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.



God speaks these commandments from His very own mouth to the entire congregation. They became to intimidated to bear the rest of God's dialogue on torah, so Moses has to finish conveying the message. But make no doubt that Torah is God inspired straight from His mouth and it is His word just like the rest of what others call Scripture.

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2009, 01:55 PM
Are we saying Torah is not Scripture, Scripture is not His Word, and all of His Word is not God Inspired. Scripture is Scripture from IN the beginning to Come Lord Quickly. It is all inspired by Him as His Word, to include Torah, which are His instructions to us for holy living.

Matt 24 32 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:32&sr=1&t=nas) "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:33&sr=1&t=nas) so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:34&sr=1&t=nas) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:35&sr=1&t=nas) "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Lu 21: (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:33&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -29 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:29&sr=1&t=nas) Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:30&sr=1&t=nas) as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:31&sr=1&t=nas) "So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:32&sr=1&t=nas) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:33&sr=1&t=nas) "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Yes is does coincide with the passage you gave and give witness to it.

What has been spoken from the mouth of God is just as eternal as Him.

Where does God word come from, where does his commandments come from, and where does his instructions/torah come from.
Mt 4:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+4:4&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
2Ti 3:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+3:16&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Even your words and thoughts are eternal (scary uh)
Mt 12:36 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+12:36&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

It is funny how we chop up the text in the Bible to say that some of it is not eternal and God breathed, or somehow torah is not Scripture and considered equally the Word of God.
1Ch 15:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1ch+15:15&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - The sons of the Levites carried the ark of God on their shoulders with the poles thereon, as Moses had commanded according to the word of the LORD.
Isa 2:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+2:3&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mic+4:2&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. It sounds like torah is Scripture, hence His word from His very own mouth. Heaven and earth is not going away until the King of King reigns in
His kingdom in the new heaven and earth.

Exodus 201 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:1&sr=1&t=nas) Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:2&sr=1&t=nas) "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:3&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:4&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:5&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:6&sr=1&t=nas) but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:7&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:8&sr=1&t=nas) "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:9&sr=1&t=nas) "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:10&sr=1&t=nas) but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:11&sr=1&t=nas) "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:12&sr=1&t=nas) "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:13&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not murder.
14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:14&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not commit adultery.
15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:15&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not steal.
16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:16&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:17&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:18&sr=1&t=nas) All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:19&sr=1&t=nas) Then they said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die." 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:20&sr=1&t=nas) Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin." 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:21&sr=1&t=nas) So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was.
22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:22&sr=1&t=nas) Then the LORD said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, `You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.




God speaks these commandments from His very own mouth to the entire congregation. They became to intimidated to bear the rest of God's dialogue on torah, so Moses has to finish conveying the message. But make no doubt that Torah is God inspired straight from His mouth and it is His word just like the rest of what others call Scripture.


With all that God has commanded through Moses, according to the word of God through his gospel how will we be judged?

Thanks and God bless Manichunter!!!!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 02:19 PM
2 Corinthians 3:6-8

6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Glory of the New Covenant

7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

keck553
Apr 11th 2009, 02:27 PM
(Joh 5:46) "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 02:29 PM
Galatians 5:18

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2009, 02:57 PM
(Joh 5:46) "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.


With all that God has commanded through Moses, according to the word of God through his gospel how will we be judged?

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 11th 2009, 03:39 PM
With all that God has commanded through Moses, according to the word of God through his gospel how will we be judged?

Firstfruits

Unbelievers- there sins remain which are defined by the Torah. I sure a copy of it will be placed in their face at their judgment. How could you declare someone guilty and sentence them, if their is no existing law against their crime. The torah will serve as a witness to their crime as well be the source of their condemnation. The Word says that those who were not formally presented Torah, will still be held accountable to it in Romans.


Believers- we will be judged for our lack of faithfulness and failing to love. Faithlessness because we did not run our personal race, by picking up our own cross, deny ourself, and following Jesus. Hence we fail to answer and fulfill our personal callings and destinies. Lovelessness because we could not get over ourself to accomplishes the first thing I stated.

That is why we believers recieve different rewards and honors in heaven for their service while on earth in the flesh. The Torah serves as a different purpose for the believer than the unbeliever. It becomes the standard of measurement of our holiness, faithfulness, and love towards God and our neighbor. This why Jesus said if you love me, then keep my commands. And James said be a doer of the Word and not just a hearer.

Vhayes
Apr 11th 2009, 05:04 PM
I am about to say something that may get me in hot water. Yeah, I know - how would THAT be different, right? :D

We will be judged, both believers and unbelievers, by what we did with Jesus.

Look at these verses Mani -
I Timothy 4
10 - For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

I Timothy 2
4 - who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 3
16 - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 - "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18" - He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those who have rejected the gift that Christ so freely gives will be judged on their own merits and be found woefully lacking.

Hope that helps a little -
V

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2009, 05:40 PM
Unbelievers- there sins remain which are defined by the Torah. I sure a copy of it will be placed in their face at their judgment. How could you declare someone guilty and sentence them, if their is no existing law against their crime. The torah will serve as a witness to their crime as well be the source of their condemnation. The Word says that those who were not formally presented Torah, will still be held accountable to it in Romans.


Believers- we will be judged for our lack of faithfulness and failing to love. Faithlessness because we did not run our personal race, by picking up our own cross, deny ourself, and following Jesus. Hence we fail to answer and fulfill our personal callings and destinies. Lovelessness because we could not get over ourself to accomplishes the first thing I stated.

That is why we believers recieve different rewards and honors in heaven for their service while on earth in the flesh. The Torah serves as a different purpose for the believer than the unbeliever. It becomes the standard of measurement of our holiness, faithfulness, and love towards God and our neighbor. This why Jesus said if you love me, then keep my commands. And James said be a doer of the Word and not just a hearer.

From what you have said both believers and unbelievers are judged the same, but that means that as far as God is concerned we are all under sin whether we have the law or not. Knowing that not keeping the law as God has commanded makes us just a guilty as those that do not.

Is the gospel of christ the same as the Torah, and what is the gospel of christ?

2 Thess 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

What has Christ commanded that we should obey?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2009, 05:47 PM
I am about to say something that may get me in hot water. Yeah, I know - how would THAT be different, right? :D

We will be judged, both believers and unbelievers, by what we did with Jesus.

Look at these verses Mani -
I Timothy 4
10 - For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

I Timothy 2
4 - who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 3
16 - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 - "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18" - He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those who have rejected the gift that Christ so freely gives will be judged on their own merits and be found woefully lacking.

Hope that helps a little -
V

Paul does state how we will be judged, but what you have said here is agreed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Apr 11th 2009, 06:10 PM
Yes - I came back to the computer to add a though to my post. Believers will be judged FOR their "works" - not BY them, if that makes sense.

I've been having a thoughtful time the last few weeks about exactly what that means - to me, it has always meant whether we are obedient to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Hope that helps clarify my thoughts a bit more -
V

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 07:38 PM
Unbelievers-

Believers- we will be judged for our lack of faithfulness and failing to love. Faithlessness because we did not run our personal race, by picking up our own cross, deny ourself, and following Jesus. Hence we fail to answer and fulfill our personal callings and destinies. Lovelessness because we could not get over ourself to accomplishes the first thing I stated.

That is why we believers recieve different rewards and honors in heaven for their service while on earth in the flesh. The Torah serves as a different purpose for the believer than the unbeliever. It becomes the standard of measurement of our holiness, faithfulness, and love towards God and our neighbor. This why Jesus said if you love me, then keep my commands. And James said be a doer of the Word and not just a hearer.

I understand you believe all this about rewards & being judged in heaven, but where is the scripture to back it up? How exactly do you get MORE holy? I am interested in scriptures for that also.

billy-brown 2
Apr 11th 2009, 08:32 PM
Are we saying Torah is not Scripture, Scripture is not His Word, and all of His Word is not God Inspired. Scripture is Scripture from IN the beginning to Come Lord Quickly. It is all inspired by Him as His Word, to include Torah, which are His instructions to us for holy living.


etc.


But make no doubt that Torah is God inspired straight from His mouth and it is His word just like the rest of what others call Scripture.


Yep . . .^^^^ congrats . . .

You are indeed aware of the truth--hence, your post . . . hopefully, the other saints will realize these things also . . .

There are four Greek words of importance apropos the issues of this OP:

1) gramma

2) rhema

3) logos

4) graphe

The Greek word in 4) is translated as "scripture"--this is the "Holy Bible" essentially.

The Greek words in 2) and 3) are the Word of God only--they refer to "the action of proclaimed speech" and we read about these actions in the graphe (i.e., scripture). Most of the time, this is equivalent to the "Word of the truth of the Gospel" or similar. Of course, 3) is used to describe Jesus as YHWH in human form in John 1.

The Greek word in 1) is used by the Apostle Paul in his contrast of Torah with the "new agreement" that he was a minister of (which he wrote about in 2 Cor. 3).

Here are some scriptures apropos the "Word of God" (logos and rhema) above:

Matt. 13:18-19 (Matthew records Jesus as speaking.)
18 (http://bible.cc/matthew/13-18.htm) “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 (http://bible.cc/matthew/13-19.htm) “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. (This is logos.)

Romans 10:8-10 (This is from Paul's writings.)
8 (http://bible.cc/romans/10-8.htm) But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 (http://bible.cc/romans/10-9.htm) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 (http://bible.cc/romans/10-10.htm) for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. (This is rhema.)

Eph. 6:17 (This is from Paul's writings.)
17 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/6-17.htm) And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (This is rhema.)

Heb. 4:12 (This is from the writings of the author of Hebrews.)
12 (http://bible.cc/hebrews/4-12.htm) For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (This is logos.)

Acts 10:44 (This is from Luke's writings)
44 (http://bible.cc/acts/10-44.htm) While Peter was still speaking these words, (This is rhema.)

the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. (This is logos).

Of course, this is a brief primer in these things (I have left many things out, indeed) . . . .

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2009, 08:48 PM
Yes - I came back to the computer to add a though to my post. Believers will be judged FOR their "works" - not BY them, if that makes sense.

I've been having a thoughtful time the last few weeks about exactly what that means - to me, it has always meant whether we are obedient to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Hope that helps clarify my thoughts a bit more -
V

I agree, but regarding the works by which law shall we be judged, with regards to this scripture?

2 Thess 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2009, 08:51 PM
Yep . . .^^^^ congrats . . .

You are indeed aware of the truth--hence, your post . . . hopefully, the other saints will realize these things also . . .

There are four Greek words of importance apropos the issues of this OP:

1) gramma

2) rhema

3) logos

4) graphe

The Greek word in 4) is translated as "scripture"--this is the "Holy Bible" essentially.

The Greek words in 2) and 3) are the Word of God only--they refer to "the action of proclaimed speech" and we read about these actions in the graphe (i.e., scripture). Most of the time, this is equivalent to the "Word of the truth of the Gospel" or similar. Of course, 3) is used to describe Jesus as YHWH in human form in John 1.

The Greek word in 1) is used by the Apostle Paul in his contrast of Torah with the "new agreement" that he was a minister of (which he wrote about in 2 Cor. 3).

Here are some scriptures apropos the "Word of God" (logos and rhema) above:

Matt. 13:18-19 (Matthew records Jesus as speaking.)
18 (http://bible.cc/matthew/13-18.htm) “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 (http://bible.cc/matthew/13-19.htm) “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. (This is logos.)

Romans 10:8-10 (This is from Paul's writings.)
8 (http://bible.cc/romans/10-8.htm) But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 (http://bible.cc/romans/10-9.htm) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 (http://bible.cc/romans/10-10.htm) for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. (This is rhema.)

Eph. 6:17 (This is from Paul's writings.)
17 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/6-17.htm) And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (This is rhema.)

Heb. 4:12 (This is from the writings of the author of Hebrews.)
12 (http://bible.cc/hebrews/4-12.htm) For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (This is logos.)

Acts 10:44 (This is from Luke's writings)
44 (http://bible.cc/acts/10-44.htm) While Peter was still speaking these words, (This is rhema.)

the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. (This is logos).

Of course, this is a brief primer in these things (I have left many things out, indeed) . . . .

I do not believe that anyone here would say that the Torah is not the word of God. But there are different ministrations/administrations of Gods word.

Firstfruits

L'Ange
Apr 11th 2009, 08:54 PM
Everyone knows that the 10 Commandments came from the Torah. Not uncommonly they don't know that when Yahshua said Love YHWH with all your heart and soul and mind and resources & Love your neighbor as yourself, He was quoting Torah! In fact, He had just been asked what were the most important parts of Torah.

Mark 12:28-31 (Amplified Bible)

28Then one of the scribes came up and listened to them disputing with one another, and, noticing that Jesus answered them fitly and admirably, he asked Him, Which commandment is first and most important of all in its nature]?
29Jesus answered, The first and principal one of all commands is: Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord;
30And you shall love the Lord your God [out of and with your whole heart and out of and with all your soul (your life) and out of and with all your mind (with your faculty of thought and your moral understanding) and out of and with all your strength. This is the first and principal commandment. 31The second is like it and is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

Those were not new ideas, new Commands. The hearers were already familiar with them from the "Old" Testament.

In fact, most of what Yahshua taught came straight out of Torah. The Sermon on the Mount? Various quotations from Torah, for example.

Yahshua said, "If you love me, keep my Commandments." His Commandments are the same as YHWH's because He is One with YHWH and "YHWH changes not."

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2009, 09:01 PM
Everyone knows that the 10 Commandments came from the Torah. Not uncommonly they don't know that when Yahshua said Love YHWH with all your heart and soul and mind and resources & Love your neighbor as yourself, He was quoting Torah! In fact, He had just been asked what were the most important parts of Torah.

Mark 12:28-31 (Amplified Bible)

28Then one of the scribes came up and listened to them disputing with one another, and, noticing that Jesus answered them fitly and admirably, he asked Him, Which commandment is first and most important of all in its nature]?
29Jesus answered, The first and principal one of all commands is: Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord;
30And you shall love the Lord your God [out of and with your whole heart and out of and with all your soul (your life) and out of and with all your mind (with your faculty of thought and your moral understanding) and out of and with all your strength. This is the first and principal commandment. 31The second is like it and is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

Those were not new ideas, new Commands. The hearers were already familiar with them from the "Old" Testament.

In fact, most of what Yahshua taught came straight out of Torah. The Sermon on the Mount? Various quotations from Torah, for example.

Yahshua said, "If you love me, keep my Commandments." His Commandments are the same as YHWH's because He is One with YHWH and "YHWH changes not."

Although God does not change but understanding all that is written in the law we have to agree that it is not the same administration as when it was given to Moses.

Firstfruits

L'Ange
Apr 11th 2009, 09:11 PM
What exactly do you mean by not exactly the same ministration as given by Moses? I agree if you meant that there are no longer any Temple ordinances to follow, since the Temple is gone. Obviously Yahshua has fulfilled the role of the great sacrificial Lamb mentioned in Isaiah 53, so that is a change. He is now our great High Priest so that is a change to the priestly system, too.

However, I believe that we are still to follow the 10 Commandments given at Mt. Sinai and the Law in general.

L'Ange
Apr 11th 2009, 09:17 PM
Are we saying Torah is not Scripture, Scripture is not His Word, and all of His Word is not God Inspired. Scripture is Scripture from IN the beginning to Come Lord Quickly. It is all inspired by Him as His Word, to include Torah, which are His instructions to us for holy living.

Matt 24 32 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:32&sr=1&t=nas) "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:33&sr=1&t=nas) so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:34&sr=1&t=nas) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:35&sr=1&t=nas) "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Lu 21: (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:33&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -29 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:29&sr=1&t=nas) Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:30&sr=1&t=nas) as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:31&sr=1&t=nas) "So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:32&sr=1&t=nas) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:33&sr=1&t=nas) "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Yes is does coincide with the passage you gave and give witness to it.

What has been spoken from the mouth of God is just as eternal as Him.

Where does God word come from, where does his commandments come from, and where does his instructions/torah come from.
Mt 4:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+4:4&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
2Ti 3:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+3:16&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Even your words and thoughts are eternal (scary uh)
Mt 12:36 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+12:36&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

It is funny how we chop up the text in the Bible to say that some of it is not eternal and God breathed, or somehow torah is not Scripture and considered equally the Word of God.
1Ch 15:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1ch+15:15&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - The sons of the Levites carried the ark of God on their shoulders with the poles thereon, as Moses had commanded according to the word of the LORD.
Isa 2:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+2:3&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mic+4:2&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. It sounds like torah is Scripture, hence His word from His very own mouth. Heaven and earth is not going away until the King of King reigns in
His kingdom in the new heaven and earth.

Exodus 201 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:1&sr=1&t=nas) Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:2&sr=1&t=nas) "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:3&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:4&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:5&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:6&sr=1&t=nas) but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:7&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:8&sr=1&t=nas) "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:9&sr=1&t=nas) "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:10&sr=1&t=nas) but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:11&sr=1&t=nas) "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:12&sr=1&t=nas) "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:13&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not murder.
14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:14&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not commit adultery.
15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:15&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not steal.
16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:16&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:17&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:18&sr=1&t=nas) All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:19&sr=1&t=nas) Then they said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die." 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:20&sr=1&t=nas) Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin." 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:21&sr=1&t=nas) So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was.
22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:22&sr=1&t=nas) Then the LORD said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, `You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.




God speaks these commandments from His very own mouth to the entire congregation. They became to intimidated to bear the rest of God's dialogue on torah, so Moses has to finish conveying the message. But make no doubt that Torah is God inspired straight from His mouth and it is His word just like the rest of what others call Scripture.

Indeed. In fact, per my understanding Jewish people tend to refer to the 10 Commandments as the "10 words."

Kahtar
Apr 11th 2009, 09:36 PM
..... there are no longer any Temple ordinances to follow, since the Temple is gone.You were addressing someone else, but I just wanted to point out that while the temple in Jerusalem is no longer there, there yet remains a temple.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Obviously Yahshua has fulfilled the role of the great sacrificial Lamb mentioned in Isaiah 53, so that is a change.Yes, there was a change, yet we ever place our trust in the Sacrifice, so the sacrificial system is not gone, just improved.

He is now our great High Priest so that is a change to the priestly system, too.Yep. Changed. Not done away with, just improved. Jesus Christ is now the High Priest instead of some Levite priest. And the rest of the priesthood has been changed too (but not done away with):
1 Peter 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


However, I believe that we are still to follow the 10 Commandments given at Mt. Sinai and the Law in general.Yep. Our reason for doing so has changed, but our doing so has not.

L'Ange
Apr 11th 2009, 09:44 PM
Galatians 5:18

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

I used to quote that too. It is very misunderstood and can be very confusing. I'm sure you must agree that we need to look at all of Scripture.
Let's not just look at that one verse but a bunch of others talking about the Law:

Luke 16:16,17 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

Have Heaven and earth passed? Of course not.


Acts 24:14 "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets."

Romans 2:13 "(For not the hearers of the law are just before YHWH, but the doers of the law shall be justified)."

Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? YHWH forbid: yea, we establish the law."

Romans 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

Romans 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

Romans 7:22 "For I delight in the law of YHWH after the inward man."

Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of YHWH, and have the testimony of Yeshua Messiah."

Revelation is speaking of a time long past that of the Apostles. Some say, Well, they were keeping the "new" laws of "love", but those laws were spoken by Yahshua in quoting from Torah.

Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Yeshua."

1 John 2:3-6 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of YHWH perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Then there is Acts 21 where Paul goes out of his way to prove, contrary to public opinioin which persists to this day, that he does keep the Law of Moses:

20And upon hearing it, they adored and exalted and praised and thanked God. And they said to [Paul], You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and all of them are enthusiastic upholders of the [Mosaic] Law.
21Now they have been informed about you that you continually teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn back from and forsake Moses, advising them not to circumcise their children or pay any attention to the observance of the [Mosaic] customs.
22What then [is best that] should be done? A multitude will come together, for they will surely hear that you have arrived.
23Therefore do just what we tell you. With us are four men who have taken a vow upon themselves. 24Take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses [for the temple offering], so that they may have their heads shaved. Thus everybody will know that there is no truth in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself walk in observance of the Law.

Paul "even" kept the food laws and told new, non Jewish converts to do the same. From Acts 15, also repeated in Acts 21:

19Therefore it is my opinion that we should not put obstacles in the way of and annoy and disturb those of the Gentiles who turn to God,
20But we should send word to them in writing to abstain from and avoid anything that has been polluted by being offered to idols, and all sexual impurity, and [eating meat of animals] that have been strangled, and [tasting of] blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had his preachers in every town, for he is read [aloud] every Sabbath in the synagogues.

Strangled meat had the blood still in it and did not conform to the Mosaic law which says animals must have their throats slit in order for the blood to drain out. Blood was, is, forbidden.

Why did Paul speak of the synagogues and the Sabbath? Because it was the custom then for new converts to go to the synagogues every Sabbath to learn more and more of Torah, not just the starter steps that Paul gave these new believers.

If the Scriptures say, and they do, that the Apostles were keeping the Laws of Moses, then we of course need to do so also.

L'Ange
Apr 11th 2009, 09:46 PM
You were addressing someone else, but I just wanted to point out that while the temple in Jerusalem is no longer there, there yet remains a temple.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Yes, there was a change, yet we ever place our trust in the Sacrifice, so the sacrificial system is not gone, just improved.
Yep. Changed. Not done away with, just improved. Jesus Christ is now the High Priest instead of some Levite priest. And the rest of the priesthood has been changed too (but not done away with):
1 Peter 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Yep. Our reason for doing so has changed, but our doing so has not.

Those are good points Cowboy.;)

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2009, 09:49 PM
I used to quote that too. It is very misunderstood and can be very confusing. I'm sure you must agree that we need to look at all of Scripture.
Let's not just look at that one verse but a bunch of others talking about the Law:

Luke 16:16,17 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

But the law has changed. So a tittle and a jot have indeed passed away. We now live by the spirit and not the letter. What Jesus is saying is that the law will not fail, and it didn't fail. He also said a jot nor a tittle would pass until it was fulfilled. That it would be easier for heaven and earth to cease before the law could be changed prior to it being fulfilled.

But as Kahtar pointed out above, it has changed. We have a new temple. We have a new priestly system. We still need to understand the spirit of the law and learn how to be priest to the King. There is much to learn from the OT. But the letter of the Torah is not what we are about today. We are about the Spirit of the Law (Torah). So we offer a new sacrifice to God but in keeping with the whole concept of sacrifices first taught to us in the OT.

L'Ange
Apr 11th 2009, 09:52 PM
[/i][/b]But the law has changed. So a tittle and a jot have indeed passed away. We now live by the spirit and not the letter. What Jesus is saying is that the law will not fail, and it didn't fail. He also said a jot nor a tittle would pass until it was fulfilled. That it would be easier for heaven and earth to cease before the law could be changed prior to it being fulfilled.

But as Kahtar pointed out above, it has changed. We have a new temple. We have a new priestly system. We still need to understand the spirit of the law and learn how to be priest to the King. There is much to learn from the OT. But the letter of the Torah is not what we are about today. We are about the Spirit of the Law (Torah). So we offer a new sacrifice to God but in keeping with the whole concept of sacrifices first taught to us in the OT.[/color][/color]

Yahshua being our sacrifical Lamb is not a change from Torah. It is the fulfillment He is speaking of. He fulfilled the role of the Isaiah 53 Lamb.

If the Law was done away with, then why is Paul telling non Jewish converts to still obey it, re Acts 15 and Acts 21? Why does he go out of his way to prove that he does obey the Laws of Moses in Acts 21?

L'Ange
Apr 11th 2009, 09:56 PM
P.S. I am sorry I used the word "change" above. Bad choice. The word "change" can have many shades to it. I should have used the word "fulfilled." Yahshua didn't change anything, He fulfilled some things as Torah said. When He fulfilled the role of the Sacrificial Lamb, then the need for the Temple sacrifices was no more.

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2009, 09:58 PM
Yahshua being our sacrifical Lamb is not a change from Torah. It is the fulfillment He is speaking of. He fulfilled the role of the Isaiah 53 Lamb.

If the Law was done away with, then why is Paul telling non Jewish converts to still obey it, re Acts 15 and Acts 21? Why does he go out of his way to prove that he does obey the Laws of Moses in Acts 21?

I didn't say done away with. I said changed and said that meant that a jot and a tittle have indeed passed away. For how can a change come without a letter being done away with? In the OT, we didn't offer Jesus, though what was offered was a type of him. They were commanded to offer a specific animal sacrifice. That is no longer the case. Thus, the letter has changed. Jesus is the Lamb that was sacrificed. We no longer need that kind of sacrifice as Hebrews teaches us for he did it once, forever. Where the high priest, by the law, had to do it every year. But Jesus, he only did it once. Thus, the law changed.

That's the point. The law is different now. And it's good to understand how it is different. One way the letter changed is through the animal sacrificial system. Another is the priesthood change.

Paul, IMO said it best, when he said "We live by the spirit of the law not the letter". IMO, we have two ditches in the churches today. One ditch says the law is useless. The other ditch still wants to live under all the letters of the law. I don't think either are correct.

As for Paul, he was a practical man and did practical things. I have no issue with him offering a sacrifice as he did in Acts. It was a practical thing. On the other hand, he told Timothy to be circumcised. Then he turned right around and forbid Titus to be circumcised. Thus, he taught Titus to "break" the law.

Anyway, I do think it important to know how we are to be priest unto the Lord. If we don't know our duties, how then can we fulfill them? Yet, if we do so through offering OT sacrifices we miss the entire point and also fail to fulfill our duties.

Kahtar
Apr 11th 2009, 10:05 PM
My thought is that the law has not changed, not a jot or tittle, but rather how we observe it and our reason for doing so.

Some have the idea that the word 'fulfill' means to do away with. Or that when the law is fulfilled, it is then done away with. I think this is incorrect.
First, has it been fulfilled entirely?
Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Second, how is it that if Christ fulfilled the law and it was then done away with, when WE fulfill the law it is not done away with?
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
I don't think Jesus' fulfilling the law caused it to end, nor do I think my fulfilling the law brings it to an end. Fulfilling it simply means obeying it.
But in the case of the prophetic Word, there is much to be fulfilled yet.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 11th 2009, 10:14 PM
Please also note that Jesus says in Matthew 5 that not a jot or tittle or the Law and the Prophets will pass away until all things have been fulfilled. If we're going to refer to this passage, we should also include the Prophets - not just the Law. With that having been said, Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law and is in Person the fulfillment of the Old Testament, both Law and Prophets.

As to whether there is a change of Law, I would say absolutely. The book of Hebrews clearly indicates that where there is a change of priesthood, there is a change of Law also. We are no longer under the priesthood of Aaron with the accompanying Law but under the priesthood of Melchizedek in Christ, with whom comes a different and new Law. Does this mean we can do what we want? No! Does this mean what we can and cannot do is randomly determined? No! But we need to realize that the letter of the Law kills, that the Law came to reveal sin - not to bring life, and that what Jesus brought is much greater, more beautiful, and far more revolutionary than the Law.

Kahtar
Apr 11th 2009, 10:17 PM
We are no longer under the priesthood of Aaron with the accompanying Law but under the priesthood of Melchizedek in Christ, with whom comes a different and new Law.I don't suppose you'd care to provide us with that new law?

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 11th 2009, 10:21 PM
I don't suppose you'd care to provide us with that new law?
No, I cannot. I am simply quoting Hebrews, which states that with a change of priesthood there has to be a change of law.

Kahtar
Apr 11th 2009, 10:28 PM
No, I cannot. I am simply quoting Hebrews, which states that with a change of priesthood there has to be a change of law.Okay. Fair enough.;)

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2009, 10:34 PM
My thought is that the law has not changed, not a jot or tittle, but rather how we observe it and our reason for doing so.

Did not the law require very specific "how to's" considering how it was to be observed? So if the how to changed, did not a letter have to change along with that? If the priesthood changed, didn't that require a jot to pass away?

Having said that, I would think that perhaps a definition of law might be required. If by law, one refers to the 10, I would be inclined to agree with you wholeheartedly. If by law, we include the regulations of the covenant, perhaps I would think differently. Sometimes I am guilty of being all inclusive when I use the term law.


Some have the idea that the word 'fulfill' means to do away with. Or that when the law is fulfilled, it is then done away with. I think this is incorrect.
First, has it been fulfilled entirely?
Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Second, how is it that if Christ fulfilled the law and it was then done away with, when WE fulfill the law it is not done away with?
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
I don't think Jesus' fulfilling the law caused it to end, nor do I think my fulfilling the law brings it to an end. Fulfilling it simply means obeying it.
But in the case of the prophetic Word, there is much to be fulfilled yet.


I agree with your thought here. The verses don't say it will all be done away. It just states that not one jot or tittle can be done away with until it is fulfilled. My personal opinion is that the spiritual law is still with us and we do observe it differently today than they did in the OT. But the letter did pass away because it was changed. Which gets back to your point... how we observed it has changed but the spirit behind the law has always been the same.

Kahtar
Apr 11th 2009, 10:49 PM
Did not the law require very specific "how to's" considering how it was to be observed? So if the how to changed, did not a letter have to change along with that? If the priesthood changed, didn't that require a jot to pass away?I'll not deny the possibility. However, of the 'how-to's' described in the Word (as opposed to Talmud) I suspect that if one were to study into it in depth, he would see the spiritual application of every jot and tittle. I've very briefly studied into it, just skimming the surface, as you are already aware.

L'Ange
Apr 11th 2009, 10:57 PM
As for Paul, he was a practical man and did practical things. I have no issue with him offering a sacrifice as he did in Acts. It was a practical thing. On the other hand, he told Timothy to be circumcised. Then he turned right around and forbid Titus to be circumcised. Thus, he taught Titus to "break" the law.

Anyway, I do think it important to know how we are to be priest unto the Lord. If we don't know our duties, how then can we fulfill them? Yet, if we do so through offering OT sacrifices we miss the entire point and also fail to fulfill our duties.

We do not have to offer OT sacrifices. That would be sacrilegeous as Yahshua has now been sacrificed once for all. He fulfilled the need for a sacrificial Lamb, not just as one that covers sin, but as One that takes it away.

As for Paul, Scriptures say he was difficult to understand in his own times. How much more so now 2000 years later in a different culture and in a different language? Not only that there is historical evidence that he actually wrote in Hebrew and that what we have is a translation from the Hebrew. Naturally the Greek would not be as clear as the Hebrew. It gets very confusing sometimes.

I find it confusing about Paul and his statements on circumcision, also, but have not really researched them out more carefully because I am female.
One thing I know about Paul. He was just a man like the rest of us. He had no authority whatsoever to change anything written in Torah. For example, He had no authority to change the food laws, the Sabbath, or anything else YHWH dictated to Moses. I do not believe he tried to usurp that authority from YHWH. I think he obviously upheld Torah, but is just being misunderstood here and there.

I have quoted the "New" Testament verses, above, that show support for keeping the Law.

A few Scriptures do seem to many people, and I used to be one of them, to be supporting doing away with the Law. Years ago, because of this apparent conflict, I went to history to check things out further. I figured actions speak louder than words - especially words that could be misunderstood.

Guess what I found out? For 123 years solidly after Yahshua rose, and in many places in the world up to the middle ages, believers in Yahshua kept the Sabbath, the Holy Festivals and the food laws. (Many of them, I'm talking tens of millions, were persecuted and killed for doing so) There was a consensus on this from secular, Protestant and RC historians! You can check it out for yourself online. It's not hard to do.

Obviously we are still not to commit adultery, worship other gods or bear false witness, etc. etc. Obviously if we do those things we are in big trouble. Obviously the Law has not been done away with.
We are told in the "Old" Testament that it will be written on our hearts, not on stone. That is another way in which Yahshua fulfills Torah for believers in Him.

It's not just that Paul made a sacrifice my friend. He stated that he kept the Law. The others with him in Acts 21 are described as enthusiastic supporters of the Law. They kept the Law. Scriptures make that clear.
They "even" supported the food laws. The Law is still there. We are still to obey it. It is eternal.

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2009, 10:59 PM
I'll not deny the possibility. However, of the 'how-to's' described in the Word (as opposed to Talmud) I suspect that if one were to study into it in depth, he would see the spiritual application of every jot and tittle. I've very briefly studied into it, just skimming the surface, as you are already aware.

OK. I can go with that. I do believe that every jot and tittle has a spiritual application. I just hadn't worded quite like you have. Now I get what you are saying. It goes back to the whole spirit and letter thing.

God just showed me something the other day from the Word about a "how to". In the ten, we are told not to boil a kid in it's mother's milk. It was just a weird place to put it and it seemed so out of kilter for the flow. Then the Lord opened my eyes. The milk of the word is meant to give life. Never should it be used to kill and destroy those to whom it is meant to give life. The ten did not come with the "thou shalt stone" condemnations. Thus, right in the middle of the ten, God gave this law. The spirit is, the milk of the word should not be used to stone the children of God, that's something the pharisees never got.

Anyway, that jot or tittle still stands spiritually. I have not considered before that way of thinking even though I have lived by it and not known it. Thanks for the clarification.

I guess to sum it up, we are saying the spirit of the law as expressed by the letter is still there. But the actual letter itself is not how it is to be observed so much anymore. I like this a lot. I know I am always looking for the spiritual law in the OT and even the most mundane thing can have meaning for us today. Still, I come back to that the letter of the law required things that the spirit of the law does not, hence Titus was not compelled to be circumcised in the letter but was circumcised in the heart.

OK, now I am rambling. I see the change, requiring a letter to pass. Yet, the letter of the spiritual remains. Is that not similar to many things in God? We have a body, but it too will be changed. Jesus was a man, but no longer is he a man. Though both still exist.

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2009, 11:04 PM
We do not have to offer OT sacrifices. That would be sacrilegeous as Yahshua has now been sacrificed once for all. He fulfilled the need for a sacrificial Lamb, not just as one that covers sin, but as One that takes it away.

Correct. But the fact remains that the OT law required a specific sacrifice. Jesus was pointed to spiritually but not by the letter. I think that is the key to understanding the entire OT.


As for Paul, Scriptures say he was difficult to understand in his own times. How much more so now 2000 years later in a different culture and in a different language? Not only that there is historical evidence that he actually wrote in Hebrew and that what we have is a translation from the Hebrew. Naturally the Greek would not be as clear as the Hebrew. It gets very confusing sometimes.

While Hebrew is helpful. The Holy Spirit does still teach us all things. We can know.


I find it confusing about Paul and his statements on circumcision, also, but have not really researched them out more carefully because I am female.
One thing I know about Paul. He was just a man like the rest of us. He had no authority whatsoever to change anything written in Torah. For example, He had no authority to change the food laws, the Sabbath, or anything else YHWH dictated to Moses. I do not believe he tried to usurp that authority from YHWH. I think he obviously upheld Torah, but is just being misunderstood here and there.

Personally, I don't think eating pork was ever really an issue with God. It just pointed to something far more important. God tied eating pork to being holy. He called those in the OT who ate an unclean thing detestable. Are those who break the letter of the law concerning unclean foods detestable in the eyes of God? Are they unholy because eating those foods in the OT made them unholy. The food laws were all about holiness. Are they still active today? I think so. Just not so much about physical food. For there are things that will make us detestable and unholy in the eyes of God today that are spelled out for us in the NT. Eat those, and watch out!

L'Ange
Apr 11th 2009, 11:41 PM
Correct. But the fact remains that the OT law required a specific sacrifice. The OT required a specific type of sacrifice for a specific type of animal, a goat or a lamb. Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22 make it clear that the Messiah was to die a different kind of death than an animal. "By His stripes we are healed" has nothing to do with Lambchop. Jesus was pointed to spiritually but not by the letter. I think that is the key to understanding the entire OT.

This is an irrefutable law for discerning truth: If Yahshua said it, it's true.

Yahshua said that not one jot or hook of the law would be removed until
heaven and earth pass away and all has been fulfilled.

Heaven and earth have not yet passed away to make room for the new Heaven and earth. All has not been fulfilled. For example, Yahshua has not come back for His children as the conquering King.


If people don't quite understand what is meant by His statment, then they can look further at the rest of what He said. Yahshua told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. He said He had not come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it, so that makes sense. He told people to pray that their flight not be on the Sabbath. That makes sense. The Sabbath is still in effect, we are to rest then, because He said He did not come to do away with the Law.


The first law of logic is that 2 contradictory statements cannot both be true. It cannot both be true that the Law is no longer in effect and that
it is in effect. It cannot both be true that Yahshua did away with the Law but told a woman not to commit adultery anymore. It cannot both be true that the Sabbath was done away with and that Yahshua upheld the Sabbath by asking people to pray that they not have to flee on that day, so that they could rest as Commanded.

It cannot both be true that Paul said that the Law was no more and also said that he kept the laws of Moses - unless he was a liar and a hypocrite, which I don't believe.

While Hebrew is helpful. The Holy Spirit does still teach us all things. We can know.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is there to teach us all things. Obviously we aren't as receptive to Him as we should be, since people are saying different, contradictory things about Scriptures so frequently. We are also told to search Scriptures and verify whatever we may think is true.

Personally, I don't think eating pork was ever really an issue with God. It just pointed to something far more important. God tied eating pork to being holy. He called those in the OT who ate an unclean thing detestable. Are those who break the letter of the law concerning unclean foods detestable in the eyes of God? Are they unholy because eating those foods in the OT made them unholy. The food laws were all about holiness. Are they still active today? I think so. Just not so much about physical food. For there are things that will make us detestable and unholy in the eyes of God today that are spelled out for us in the NT. Eat those, and watch out!

It cannot both be true that "eating pork was never really an issue with" YHWH and that "He called those in the OT who ate unclean things detestable."

Brother Mark
Apr 12th 2009, 12:08 AM
This is an irrefutable law for discerning truth: If Yahshua said it, it's true.

Yahshua said that not one jot or hook of the law would be removed until
heaven and earth pass away and all has been fulfilled.

Actually, that's not what he said. He said qualified it with the statement "till all be fulfilled". IMO, when he said "It is finished" he had fulfilled all the law required of him. Thus, some jots and tittles passed away. Circumcision is one as we learned with Titus.

Another jot or tittle that passed away was the requirement for the priesthood. Those letters changed and passed away. Use to be that only a Levite could be a priest. But Jesus was no Levite nor are we. Yet, both of us are priest. Thus a jot and a tittle concerning who priest are did indeed pass away.


It cannot both be true that "eating pork was ever really an issue with" YHWH and that "He called those in the OT who ate unclean things detestable."

Sure it can. Offering a lamb was never a big thing with God. It was always offering THE Lamb that was a big thing with God. That was my point. Perhaps I did not word it so well. Eating a pig isn't the point anymore. It's what eating the pig represents that is important. Thus, living by the spirit of the law is far more important that living by the letter of the law.

Do you think that those people who eat pork are detestable and unholy in the sight of God?

L'Ange
Apr 12th 2009, 12:24 AM
I'm sorry, but it turns out I just don't have more time to continue on with this string right now. May we all come into a full knowledge of the Word of YHWH.

manichunter
Apr 12th 2009, 01:59 AM
From what you have said both believers and unbelievers are judged the same, but that means that as far as God is concerned we are all under sin whether we have the law or not. Knowing that not keeping the law as God has commanded makes us just a guilty as those that do not.

Is the gospel of christ the same as the Torah, and what is the gospel of christ?

2 Thess 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

What has Christ commanded that we should obey?

Firstfruits



No they are not the same judgment. One is a judgment of condemnation, and its eternal. One is a judgment of shame and dishonor, and there will be no condemnation or penalty attached to it.

Yes, an unbeliever will go to hell for rejecting the gift and grace God offered to man, but it will because legally their sins remain. The unbeliever will still have personal sin that will deem them unclean to eternally fellowship with God.

The believer will be judged as being unfaithful in the things entrusted to them to fulfill. However, they will not have personal sins attributed to them for they accepted the gift of forgiveness. However, all will have to face judgment to give an account for the deeds done in the flesh and the deeds you should have done.

manichunter
Apr 12th 2009, 02:08 AM
I do not believe that anyone here would say that the Torah is not the word of God. But there are different ministrations/administrations of Gods word.

Firstfruits
So some of God's word is less important, no longer potent, less eternal, and/or revocked. I think you will say no, but how do you reconcile the text of both OT and NT. The only way to do this is by seeing them as the same Word of God in entire equality and potency. Just like Jesus said, man is to live by every word that comes from the mouth of God. He was referring to the OT and He qouted the OT for His defense and power.

manichunter
Apr 12th 2009, 02:15 AM
My thought is that the law has not changed, not a jot or tittle, but rather how we observe it and our reason for doing so.

Some have the idea that the word 'fulfill' means to do away with. Or that when the law is fulfilled, it is then done away with. I think this is incorrect.
First, has it been fulfilled entirely?
Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Second, how is it that if Christ fulfilled the law and it was then done away with, when WE fulfill the law it is not done away with?
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
I don't think Jesus' fulfilling the law caused it to end, nor do I think my fulfilling the law brings it to an end. Fulfilling it simply means obeying it.
But in the case of the prophetic Word, there is much to be fulfilled yet.


This is what I have been say for a year............... This is why I keep learning from the Spirit using you, kind sir. ;)

Spiritual application of Torah and seeing the spiritual principles it sets before us.

Now that some might have glimspe into this reality, will they hold themselves accountable for finishing the task of seeking a greater part of the picture.

There is a relationship between believer and Torah, and no believer is complete without it spirituality prospering in their life, not by its letter which proves my iniquity, but by the Spirit which causes me to enjoy life abundantly through it.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 09:56 AM
What exactly do you mean by not exactly the same ministration as given by Moses? I agree if you meant that there are no longer any Temple ordinances to follow, since the Temple is gone. Obviously Yahshua has fulfilled the role of the great sacrificial Lamb mentioned in Isaiah 53, so that is a change. He is now our great High Priest so that is a change to the priestly system, too.

However, I believe that we are still to follow the 10 Commandments given at Mt. Sinai and the Law in general.

Yet with the administration of the ten commandments they are not the same according to what is written in the law regarding to ten commandments.

The punishment for those that broke any of the commandments is death without mercy.

Heb 10:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

If that administration has not changed then death is still Gods punishment for those that break Gods commandments.

It is not just a case that we are all going to die, but that those that have Gods law shall be killed for breaking it.

God bless!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 10:12 AM
So some of God's word is less important, no longer potent, less eternal, and/or revocked. I think you will say no, but how do you reconcile the text of both OT and NT. The only way to do this is by seeing them as the same Word of God in entire equality and potency. Just like Jesus said, man is to live by every word that comes from the mouth of God. He was referring to the OT and He qouted the OT for His defense and power.

Which of the following commanded by God do you apply?

Mt 5:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Ex 21:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Mt 5:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mt 5:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Do you still apply Gods commandment "an eye for an eye" or has that adminstration changed?

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 12th 2009, 01:56 PM
Yet with the administration of the ten commandments they are not the same according to what is written in the law regarding to ten commandments.

The punishment for those that broke any of the commandments is death without mercy.

Heb 10:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

If that administration has not changed then death is still Gods punishment for those that break Gods commandments.

It is not just a case that we are all going to die, but that those that have Gods law shall be killed for breaking it.

God bless!

Firstfruits

The OT is replete with testimonies of people repenting and God showing them grace. It is also full of God demanding that others repent in order to not be punished by judgment of death. It is also full of people boasting about the grace of God operating in their lives.

We have already agreed Firstfruit that GRACE existed from beginning to end even in the time of OT. Hence, it took reprobation and a lack of repentance in order to reap what they sowed. God is still not mocked even in the NT. It is still said that he will call some home who refuse to repent. Ain't nothing changed.

manichunter
Apr 12th 2009, 02:04 PM
Which of the following commanded by God do you apply?

Mt 5:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Ex 21:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Mt 5:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mt 5:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Do you still apply Gods commandment "an eye for an eye" or has that adminstration changed?

Firstfruits

Do you believe that there is a spiritual principle to an eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth? One of the seven universal laws that still applies is the law of like treatment. We are still told to repay our debts if we offend or defraud our neighbor.

The Jews did not have a bunch of one eye or one tooth people walking around. A matter of fact, the death penalty was almost never practiced. It took a legal court sentence, two or three witnesses, and a trial to condemn a person to death.

By the way, what do you mean about administration, do you mean a new government or way of doing things. If it is either, it still does not remove what exist, but modifies how it is practiced in the last cast and it does not change anything in the first. The government of God has never changed, because God changes not. So what is this administration.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 02:07 PM
The OT is replete with testimonies of people repenting and God showing them grace. It is also full of God demanding that others repent in order to not be punished by judgment of death. It is also full of people boasting about the grace of God operating in their lives.

We have already agreed Firstfruit that GRACE existed from beginning to end even in the time of OT. Hence, it took reprobation and a lack of repentance in order to reap what they sowed. God is still not mocked even in the NT. It is still said that he will call some home who refuse to repent. Ain't nothing changed.

Does grace overide Gods commandments in the Torah?

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 12th 2009, 02:18 PM
Does grace overide Gods commandments in the Torah?

Firstfruits

I would say ask David who murdered a man, God did not demand His life because He repented. Ask Moses who struct the rock. Ask the children of Israel in the wilderness who faced total mass death countless times, but God's grace got them to the promise land. That was the only thing that got them to the promise land. Ask the prophet who repeatedly called for repentance and the offering of Grace. If my people who are called by my name humble themselves and turn from their wicked ways, then I, God, will..............................

Grace has always worked in league with the Torah, as it does today. A person still will reaps what they sowed, because of this principle.

Why do we try to change God or say that God changes?
God is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 02:25 PM
I would say ask David who murdered a man, God did not demand His life because He repented. Ask Moses who struct the rock. Ask the children of Israel in the wilderness who faced total mass death countless times, but God's grace got them to the promise land. That was the only thing that got them to the promise land. Ask the prophet who repeatedly called for repentance and the offering of Grace. If my people who are called by my name humble themselves and turn from their wicked ways, then I, God, will..............................

Grace has always worked in league with the Torah, as it does today. A person still will reaps what they sowed, because of this principle.

Why do we try to change God or say that God changes?
God is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow.

When a man sinned and God commandment was for that man to be cut off without mercy or else the ones that should have carried out God command would be killed instead. is there not a change knowing that Jesus says forgive?

Are we that deserve to die not saved by grace through Christ?

Does Gods commandment still stand rgarding the following?

Mt 5:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Ex 21:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 12th 2009, 02:37 PM
When a man sinned and God commandment was for that man to be cut off without mercy or else the ones that should have carried out God command would be killed instead. is there not a change knowing that Jesus says forgive?

Are we that deserve to die not saved by grace through Christ?

Does Gods commandment still stand rgarding the following?

Mt 5:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Ex 21:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

God bless you!

Firstfruits


I said yes, it still spiritually applies as a principle. If you go about defrauding people, then God will tap your pocket book with a penatly four fold if you do not seek to reconcile your transgression against your neighbors. NT says do not defraud your brother and repay your debts. Give what is owed.

Another thing I want to know is why do you try to use what you deem as extremes to prove your point like this case. I believe it is wrong for you to do this. It is like you are using God's word to fight and disprove another Word of God. I believe it comes down to a lack of understanding the cohesion and agreement of Scripture.

The principles and demands of love within Scripture has and will never change from Gen 1 to Rev 22. For you to use extremes as to establish two separate principles is to bring Scripture out of agreement. His to show God to be confuse. Jesus in the text that you provide escalated our actions and built upon a principle by requiring more of us spiritually, if one keeps reading. He are to exercise the same grace upon our brother and except being defrauded, not that is right to be defrauded.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 03:01 PM
I said yes, it still spiritually applies as a principle. If you go about defrauding people, then God will tap your pocket book with a penatly four fold if you do not seek to reconcile your transgression against your neighbors. NT says do not defraud your brother and repay your debts. Give what is owed.

Another thing I want to know is why do you try to use what you deem as extremes to prove your point like this case. I believe it is wrong for you to do this. It is like you are using God's word to fight and disprove another Word of God. I believe it comes down to a lack of understanding the cohesion and agreement of Scripture.

The principles and demands of love within Scripture has and will never change from Gen 1 to Rev 22. For you to use extremes as to establish two separate principles is to bring Scripture out of agreement. His to show God to be confuse. Jesus in the text that you provide escalated our actions and built upon a principle by requiring more of us spiritually, if one keeps reading. He are to exercise the same grace upon our brother and except being defrauded, not that is right to be defrauded.

Jesus says otherwise does he not, regarding how we treat those that have wronged us?

Mt 5:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mt 5:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

God bless you!

Firstfruits

billy-brown 2
Apr 12th 2009, 05:43 PM
I do not believe that anyone here would say that the Torah is not the word of God. But there are different ministrations/administrations of Gods word.

Firstfruits

That's certainly true . . . however, the OP seems to be indicating the following:

Torah is Scripture--and not the Word of God.

Now, I don't want to put words in the mouth of manichunter (since I know he can write for himself), but there does not seem to be anyway that he could have written the OP without knowing the following (the greek words are in italics):

A)

Scripture (graphe) is not The Word of God (logos or rhema).

Scripture . . . is Scripture (graphe deals with that which is written down only).

B)

The Word of God is not Scripture.

The Word of God . . . is The Word of God (logos or rhema deals with Gospel proclamation with the human voice only--they differ in emphasis, of course).

C)

Paul contrasts Torah with the "new agreement" that he was a minister of in 2 Cor. 3.

The word used by Paul for Torah here is gramma. In Paul's mind, therefore, gramma is part of the graphe:

2 Cor 3
1 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-1.htm) Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you?
2 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-2.htm) You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-3.htm) being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-4.htm) Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-5.htm) Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-6.htm) who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter (gramma) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-7.htm) But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-8.htm) how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-9.htm) For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-10.htm) For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-11.htm) For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-12.htm) Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
13 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-13.htm) and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-14.htm) But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-15.htm) But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-16.htm) but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-17.htm) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-18.htm) But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2009, 06:09 PM
That's certainly true . . . however, the OP seems to be indicating the following:

Torah is Scripture--and not the Word of God.

Now, I don't want to put words in the mouth of manichunter (since I know he can write for himself), but there does not seem to be anyway that he could have written the OP without knowing the following (the greek words are in italics):

A)

Scripture (graphe) is not The Word of God (logos or rhema).

Scripture . . . is Scripture (graphe deals with that which is written down only).

B)

The Word of God is not Scripture.

The Word of God . . . is The Word of God (logos or rhema deals with Gospel proclamation with the human voice only--they differ in emphasis, of course).

C)

Paul contrasts Torah with the "new agreement" that he was a minister of in 2 Cor. 3.

The word used by Paul for Torah here is gramma. In Paul's mind, therefore, gramma is part of the graphe:

2 Cor 3
1 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-1.htm) Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you?
2 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-2.htm) You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-3.htm) being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-4.htm) Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-5.htm) Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-6.htm) who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter (gramma) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-7.htm) But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-8.htm) how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-9.htm) For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-10.htm) For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-11.htm) For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-12.htm) Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
13 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-13.htm) and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-14.htm) But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-15.htm) But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-16.htm) but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-17.htm) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/3-18.htm) But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

What Paul taught is stll the word of God.

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
Apr 12th 2009, 07:02 PM
I am sure this is painfully obvious to many of us & not to others.
The Torah is the word of God 100% but it was made 100% obsolete when Jesus died on the cross.

Ask yourself, If it had any value why would God send his son to die such a death? Why didn't we just go on electing priests from the family of Levi & killing bulls & goats for forgiveness of sins?
Jesus is the new priest & the law of Love has replaced the old laws of Moses (sin & death). If you continue to rely on the Laws of Moses after receiving the knowledge of Jesus there is no sacrifice for sins left. You are calling God a liar & are an enemy to God.

Hebrews 10

Christ's Sacrifice Once for All

1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.' "[a] 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."[b] 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more."[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

manichunter
Apr 12th 2009, 07:23 PM
I am sure this is painfully obvious to many of us & not to others.
The Torah is the word of God 100% but it was made 100% obsolete when Jesus died on the cross.

.

So, believers have no other commands to obey other than to love God and neighbor............. So we are free of any other obligation obediance towards God except these two........ So, loving God and neigher has been reduced to what I deem as right in my own eyes. It becomes relative and unobjective.

No way.............. it can't be this easy. This is not a relationship, this is a religion, and moreover like the rest of the world's religion.

So being baptized and participating in the Lord's supper are optional now as well.

People forget that respect and honor are partners to love..............

embankmentlb
Apr 12th 2009, 07:58 PM
So, believers have no other commands to obey other than to love God and neighbor............. So we are free of any other obligation obediance towards God except these two........ So, loving God and neigher has been reduced to what I deem as right in my own eyes. It becomes relative and unobjective.

No way.............. it can't be this easy. This is not a relationship, this is a religion, and moreover like the rest of the world's religion.

So being baptized and participating in the Lord's supper are optional now as well.

People forget that respect and honor are partners to love..............

Now you got it!
except for the "no way part ". Love God and neighbor is all God wants from us, It is just that easy! Being Baptized & the Lords supper are great things to do if it makes YOU fell part of the Church or just feel better to God in general. If you put any type of requirement on yourself or someone else to do these things you are miss informed. Jesus did it all! God could care less about confessing sins & public spectacles. Read the passage below. In place of circumcised you can put in it's place:
Baptized
Church attendance
speaking in tongs
picking up snakes
drinking poison
participating in the lords supper
confessing sins
just fill in the blank.


Galatians 5

Freedom in Christ

1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Kahtar
Apr 12th 2009, 08:27 PM
I am sure this is painfully obvious to many of us & not to others.
The Torah is the word of God 100% but it was made 100% obsolete when Jesus died on the cross.

Ask yourself, If it had any value why would God send his son to die such a death?.....Sorry my friend, but this flies in the face of what Paul taught.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
What scripture do you think Paul was referring to here?
The 'New Testament' did not exist when he wrote that.
If scripture does not have any value, as you say, then Paul was a liar.
Your statement also contradicts Jesus' own words:
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Apparently, the torah, prophets and writings contain things about Christ. Are these things valueless in your mind?

embankmentlb
Apr 12th 2009, 08:53 PM
Sorry my friend, but this flies in the face of what Paul taught.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
What scripture do you think Paul was referring to here?
The 'New Testament' did not exist when he wrote that.
If scripture does not have any value, as you say, then Paul was a liar.
Your statement also contradicts Jesus' own words:
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Apparently, the torah, prophets and writings contain things about Christ. Are these things valueless in your mind?

Sure those OT scriptures have value, especially if you are LOST. If you are Lost, you better study them real well with the hope they put you in touch with the only savior Jesus Christ. The same for Luke, because the OT rules were in effect till all was complete. All was completed on the day Jesus was raised from the dead. I guess you guys don't care to much for Easter?

So are you saying that the scripture I just posted in Gal 5 I just posted is out of context or wrong in some way?

Kahtar
Apr 12th 2009, 09:01 PM
I guess you guys don't care to much for Easter?If you mean the resurrection of Jesus Christ 'us guys' do care about that. Paying honor and tribute to Ishtar with fertility symbols I personally do not care much for.


So are you saying that the scripture I just posted in Gal 5 I just posted is out of context or wrong in some way?Seeing that I made no mention whatever of that quote, I would have to say, no, that is not what I'm saying.
But since you brought it up, I will say that scripture does not contradict itself. Only our many and diverse interpretations of it is contradictory.

Zack702
Apr 13th 2009, 12:10 AM
So, believers have no other commands to obey other than to love God and neighbor............. So we are free of any other obligation obediance towards God except these two........ So, loving God and neigher has been reduced to what I deem as right in my own eyes. It becomes relative and unobjective.

No way.............. it can't be this easy. This is not a relationship, this is a religion, and moreover like the rest of the world's religion.

So being baptized and participating in the Lord's supper are optional now as well.

People forget that respect and honor are partners to love..............

Yea but not everyone reads the bible. And not only that they reword the bible to the confusion of the ones that think it is simplified.

I also think that respect and honor are partners to love.

Understanding the bible as a whole gives you the ability to combine it together encouraging us to live fully and even giving us something to hold fast to knowing it is the will of God and not man. I think they (the laws when put into proper perspective) can be both a mental and physical blessing just as God said.

Knowing now that grace has gotten us this far. We are now free to practice the laws as we see right in our own eyes. But only untill we truely respect the bible will we ever truely believe in the promises given in the torah. Once we really have faith then I think we freely recieve the blessings and with respect and honor we delight in recieving even the slightest bit of spiritual love.

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 03:30 AM
Yea but not everyone reads the bible. And not only that they reword the bible to the confusion of the ones that think it is simplified.

I also think that respect and honor are partners to love.

Understanding the bible as a whole gives you the ability to combine it together encouraging us to live fully and even giving us something to hold fast to knowing it is the will of God and not man. I think they (the laws when put into proper perspective) can be both a mental and physical blessing just as God said.

Knowing now that grace has gotten us this far. We are now free to practice the laws as we see right in our own eyes. But only untill we truely respect the bible will we ever truely believe in the promises given in the torah. Once we really have faith then I think we freely recieve the blessings and with respect and honor we delight in recieving even the slightest bit of spiritual love.

Yes, this is the revelation I still fight with in my common relationships, besides the one with God.

I love them, but I do not always honor or respect them. To respect someone is to do a thing towards them that respects their wishes and considers them independent of my own desires, but theirs. To honor them is to esteem their settings, habits, and culture even if they are different for my own.

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2009, 12:22 PM
Sorry my friend, but this flies in the face of what Paul taught.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
What scripture do you think Paul was referring to here?
The 'New Testament' did not exist when he wrote that.
If scripture does not have any value, as you say, then Paul was a liar.
Your statement also contradicts Jesus' own words:
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Apparently, the torah, prophets and writings contain things about Christ. Are these things valueless in your mind?


Is it not because of disobedience to the scriptures that God commanded that God conculded that are all under sin? We are all guilty of sin whether or not we have the law. If we were truly concerned with Christ as Jesus said then we would have believed there is no other way to God but by Jesus.

Those that do not have Gods word are saved in the same way as those that have Gods word, and that is by faith in Christ without the deeds of the law.

If those that have the law could keep the law Christ would not have to die to forgive them for their transgressions. Every time we do what is written in Gods law but not according to Gods will we are as God said guilty of sin.

So do we aks for forgivness everytime we keep or do as we feel we should, as what made God make that conclusion that we are all under sin?

Those that have the law are no better of than those without it.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

billy-brown 2
Apr 13th 2009, 12:25 PM
What Paul taught is still the word of God.

Firstfruits

Yep . . .^^^ that . . .

(A record of Paul's teaching is in the scripture, indeed.)

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2009, 12:29 PM
Is it not because of disobedience to the scriptures that God commanded that God conculded that are all under sin? We are all guilty of sin whether or not we have the law. If we were truly concerned with Christ as Jesus said then we would have believed there is no other way to God but by Jesus. Agree


Those that do not have Gods word are saved in the same way as those that have Gods word, and that is by faith in Christ without the deeds of the law. Agree


If those that have the law could keep the law Christ would not have to die to forgive them for their transgressions.Agree

Every time we do what is written in Gods law but not according to Gods will we are as God said guilty of sin. Huh?


So do we aks for forgivness everytime we keep or do as we feel we should, as what made God make that conclusion that we are all under sin?:hmm: I don't understand


Those that have the law are no better of than those without it.Agree

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2009, 12:54 PM
Agree

Agree

Agree
Huh?

:hmm: I don't understand

Agree

Quote:
Every time we do what is written in Gods law but not according to Gods will we are as God said guilty of sin.
Huh?

Because of those that had the law but not doing as God commanded they were guilty of sin. If we also do as they did are we not also guilty of sin?


Quote:
So do we aks for forgivness everytime we keep or do as we feel we should, as what made God make that conclusion that we are all under sin?
:hmm: I don't understand.

We are taught that is we sin we should ask for forgiveness, If we know that we are not doing according to what God has commanded do we need to repent?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2009, 01:40 PM
Quote:
Every time we do what is written in Gods law but not according to Gods will we are as God said guilty of sin.
Huh?

Because of those that had the law but not doing as God commanded they were guilty of sin. If we also do as they did are we not also guilty of sin?Thank you for the clarification. The thing with those who had the law is that in having it, they did not obey it. Further, when they did obey it, it was an outward thing and not of the heart. In other words, they could outwardly not kill their brother but inwardly hate him. The law is spiritual, as Paul said, and is a matter of the heart, not just outward acts.




So do we aks for forgivness everytime we keep or do as we feel we should, as what made God make that conclusion that we are all under sin?
:hmm: I don't understand.

We are taught that is we sin we should ask for forgiveness, If we know that we are not doing according to what God has commanded do we need to repent? Yes, we do need to repent. That of course entails more than merely 'saying' you repent. It requires actually stopping that thing and walking the right way. But, how do we determine the right way? That is the purpose of the law, to instruct us in the right way.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 02:03 PM
But, how do we determine the right way? That is the purpose of the law, to instruct us in the right way.

That is 100% wrong. The law was given to show us we are spiritually dead without a savior. It was a tutor to lead us to Christ.
Love doe's no harm to our neighbor & that is the higher law God expects us to live by. The law is a morel code for the lost & the lost only.

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 02:24 PM
Now you got it!
except for the "no way part ". Love God and neighbor is all God wants from us, It is just that easy! Being Baptized & the Lords supper are great things to do if it makes YOU fell part of the Church or just feel better to God in general. If you put any type of requirement on yourself or someone else to do these things you are miss informed. Jesus did it all! God could care less about confessing sins & public spectacles. Read the passage below. In place of circumcised you can put in it's place:
Baptized
Church attendance
speaking in tongs
picking up snakes
drinking poison
participating in the lords supper
confessing sins
just fill in the blank.


Galatians 5

Freedom in Christ

1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

No way............ can't be.

We as people live with and under laws in every relationship we have on this planet and universe, their is no exception in the Kingdom of God. We have rules in marriage, rules in our churches, rules in the nations we live in, rules for driving, rules for businesses, rules for flying, rules for parenting, rules in nature, and just plain universal rules such as gravity. What is funny, is that we told to obey these laws as well.

Examples- Wives and Husbands submit to one another. Obey the laws of your nations. Do not disrespect dignitaries. Obey those that authority over you. Do not even disrespect gravity by jumping off of temples to put God to a foolish test. and Etc.

Rules (laws) ensures that things stay decent and in order. It holds back relativity, darkness, and chaos. Without rules, there are no boundaries or standards for agreement or reconciliation. Hence, christianity is so divided. We despise laws or deem the obediance to the authority of any laws as relative.

Yes, I share the sentiment that we are free, legally free from death, sin, and the grave which the Torah manifested that I was guilty of. It can no longer condemn me to death, but violating it can still harm me on this side of Kingdom.

We commanded by God to obey a lower forms of imperfect torahs, but ignore His higher and perfect Torah. No way..............

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 02:38 PM
Yes, I share the sentiment that we are free, legally free from death, sin, and the grave which the Torah manifested that I was guilty of. It can no longer condemn me to death, but violating it can still harm me on this side of Kingdom.

We commanded by God to obey a lower forms of imperfect torahs, but ignore His higher and perfect Torah. No way..............

Ok, if the torah cannot condemn to death those who know Jesus, what is the value of the torah? It cannot save you. It cannot kill you. What can it do for those who have Jesus? All it can do is remind you of sin. God doe's not want our minds on sin.

Vhayes
Apr 13th 2009, 02:41 PM
Mani, rules and laws are things that work from the outside in.

I have been married a loooooong time. I have no desire for my husband to not commit adultery because he's afraid he might get caught - the reason is because he loves me enough to not want to hurt me and that he still, after all these years, finds me attractive.

I don't speed - not because I am afraid I will get caught but because i would rather have a leisurely drive to work than have to put the pedal to the metal all helter skelter to get somewhere on time.

Before I met Jesus, I had the foulest mouth on the planet - I could make truck drivers and sailors blush. I was raised in a household where swearing was a normal part of speech. It was the most bizarre thing but that just disappeared. It wasn't a conscious choice, it just happened. Today, I know when I am getting distant from the Lord because the swearing comes back fast and hard.

Right now I am struggling with something that I have no control over (surprise!!!). Even though the Lord has carried me this far, I still have trouble with the "trust" thing. Stupid after all I've been through but true none the less. And I KNOW it will all work out for the best as the Lord sees fit but I still want to get in there and tweak.

Our Father doesn't care if we wear clothing of mixed fabrics - He cares that you help cloth those without the means of purchasing clothing or that you teach them about being clothed with the righteousness of Christ. Our Father doesn't care if you eat a bacon sandwich - He cares that you feed the hungry, be it with actual food or with the Word.

It really is all about heart attitude. Honest.
V

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 03:00 PM
:hmm:
Ok, if the torah cannot condemn to death those who know Jesus, what is the value of the torah? It cannot save you. It cannot kill you. What can it do for those who have Jesus? All it can do is remind you of sin. God doe's not want our minds on sin.

I have three questions for you:
Do you still commit sin?
Do you not reap what you sow?
If you do reap bad consequences after you transgress. why?


Are you aware of all the sins that you possibly commit daily and the effects that they have on you and others. Do you ask yourself why certain things happen to you good or bad, and never really come to the understanding of why.

Those gaps of understanding and revelation are found in the Torah. There are benefits and curses. The NT even says that a believer can still be affected by curses from sin. Ask the married couple that lied to the Holy Spirit.............. Paul even announced curses on others.

The greatest enemy of Torah is carnality. The same thing in adult believers that hates to be told what to do by another adult. :hmm:

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 03:05 PM
Right now I am struggling with something that I have no control over (surprise!!!). Even though the Lord has carried me this far, I still have trouble with the "trust" thing. Stupid after all I've been through but true none the less. And I KNOW it will all work out for the best as the Lord sees fit but I still want to get in there and tweak.

Our Father doesn't care if we wear clothing of mixed fabrics - He cares that you help cloth those without the means of purchasing clothing or that you teach them about being clothed with the righteousness of Christ. Our Father doesn't care if you eat a bacon sandwich - He cares that you feed the hungry, be it with actual food or with the Word.

It really is all about heart attitude. Honest.
V

I hear you kind lady. I have a hypothesis behind this one.

Hypothesis- The principle of not being unevenly yoke with unbelievers or sin ladden saints.

I have yet to discover the spiritual revelation behind that specific judgment. That was not a commandment, but judgment.

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2009, 03:18 PM
That is 100% wrong. The law was given to show us we are spiritually dead without a savior. It does indeed show us we are spiritually dead without a savior. But it also instructs us in the right way to live. Your argument here is with scripture, not me:
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It was a tutor to lead us to Christ.Yes. It does that. But how does it do that? It shows us the right way, does it not? It certainly does not show us the wrong way to Christ.

Love doe's no harm to our neighbor & that is the higher law God expects us to live by.Yes, that has always been God's law. We learn that clear back in Leviticus. Just as Jesus Himself said, and Paul reiterated, all the law hangs upon Love God and Love Neighbor.
But a person can hate his neighbor and still do no harm to him, so I think that higher law you spoke of goes a bit beyond merely doing no harm, don't you?

The law is a morel code for the lost & the lost only.So once we have Christ, we no longer need to live moral lives? Surely you can't mean that! That is very contradictory to your previous statement about the 'higher law'.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
If all the law is fulfilled by loving our neighbor, then all the law must be important.
Speaking of the 'tutor', when you were a child, did your parents teach you not to play in the street? Did they explain why? Now that you are an adult (I am assuming that you are), and are no longer under the 'law' of your parents, is it now okay to play in the street? Or do you still abide by that law even though you are no longer under threat of punishment from your parents?

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 03:22 PM
With all that God has commanded through Moses, according to the word of God through his gospel how will we be judged?

Firstfruits

The same way God has ALWAYS judged.

By faith.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 03:41 PM
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SIZE=2]If all the law is fulfilled by loving our neighbor, then all the law must be important.

1 Timothy 1:8-10

8But we know that (A)the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

9realizing the fact that (B)law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and (C)rebellious, for the (D)ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and (E)profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

10and (F)immoral men and (G)homosexuals and (H)kidnappers and (I)liars and (J)perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (K)sound teaching,

The law was not made for a righteous person.

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 03:45 PM
Man, you torah people never answer a question directly. When you decide to get serious about the Bible & have a conversation maybe we can talk. Good Luck!


I am sorry to test your patience and love brother. Your response........ :o

I wanted to answer your question, but was concerned about something. I do not want to offend you.

What is it you seek? I do not know. Is is truth, an answer, or knowledge.

Here is goes.........let the dice fall.......

The Torah gives details of blessing and curses depending on how we conduct ourselves. I gave an OT example regarding the paying of tithes earlier. God said He will rebuke the devourer on our behalf if we pay what is owed with a sincere and clean heart.

NT example of Torah- We are told to not be yoked with unbelievers. There are negative consequences for doing so.

Torah basically means instructions, not laws as it is often mistranslated as. It can be translated as such, but that narrows the scope and understanding of what it really is. It is God intimately giving man a view of His ways and a standard for relating and loving Him and others.

Torah is composed of several subsections called commandments, religious ordinances, legal judgments, and testimonies.

I will give a brief NT examples of each.

Commandment- we are told to still honor our parents and not to bear false witness.

Religious ordinances- We are told to present ourselves as a living sacrifice, Paul said he was a drinking offering on behalf of others (a part of the meat offering).

Judgment- We are told to obey the laws of the land and those that have rule over us as unto the Lord.

Testimonies- We are told to not be unevenly yoked with unbelievers to our own detriment if we ignore this testiment.


Forgive me for guestioning your motives. Most want to debate and not share. I am not interested in debate but dialogue that offers me a chance to learn as well. Me learning goes beyond knowledge but character as well. I have learned alot from Vhayes and Kathar just from their love and kind spirit, besides what they know.

billy-brown 2
Apr 13th 2009, 03:57 PM
Hi all,

How does one handle the verses below (as apropos the OP)?

1 Cor. 14:34-35
34 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/14-34.htm) Let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.
35 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/14-35.htm) And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2009, 04:16 PM
1 Timothy 1:8-10

8But we know that (A)the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

9realizing the fact that (B)law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and (C)rebellious, for the (D)ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and (E)profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

10and (F)immoral men and (G)homosexuals and (H)kidnappers and (I)liars and (J)perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (K)sound teaching,

The law was not made for a righteous person.;)Right. A righteous man already does those things the law requires. Like loving your neighbor, giving to him instead of stealing from him, etc. Those who already do such things don't need the written law to tell them to do it. But those who don't, the law provides them the instruction in righteousness, because they need the instruction.
The problem is, there is none righteous, no, not one. Not even you. And certainly not me. And since neither of us are righteous, we need to understand what righteousness and holiness is, and when we understand that, we will also understand that we cannot possibly measure up to the absolute perfection that God requires, and thus we see our need for a Savior, One who would suffer the penalty of violating God's holy law IN OUR PLACE. And now that our punishment is ALREADY paid, we are now free to walk in righteousness and obedience to God without fear of punishment everytime we mess up.
The Holy Spirit writes that selfsame law of God upon our hearts, giving us the desire in our hearts to love God and love our neighbor, and, more than a mere mental exercise, to actually SHOW our neighbor that love, and SHOW God that love. And that law that is written in our hearts shows us, instructs us, in HOW to do that.

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 04:17 PM
Since when is Paul God?

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 04:35 PM
Since when is Paul God?
Wow! If Thats the best answer you can come with there in no point in you and i discussing this any further.
Wow!

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 13th 2009, 04:36 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, please refrain from one-liners that do not address a specific issue nor explain what you are actually trying to say. This is a discussion board - let's keep discussing, not throwing out one-liners.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 04:48 PM
;)Right. A righteous man already does those things the law requires. Like loving your neighbor, giving to him instead of stealing from him, etc. Those who already do such things don't need the written law to tell them to do it. But those who don't, the law provides them the instruction in righteousness, because they need the instruction.
The problem is, there is none righteous, no, not one. Not even you. And certainly not me. And since neither of us are righteous, we need to understand what righteousness and holiness is, and when we understand that, we will also understand that we cannot possibly measure up to the absolute perfection that God requires, and thus we see our need for a Savior, One who would suffer the penalty of violating God's holy law IN OUR PLACE. And now that our punishment is ALREADY paid, we are now free to walk in righteousness and obedience to God without fear of punishment everytime we mess up.
The Holy Spirit writes that selfsame law of God upon our hearts, giving us the desire in our hearts to love God and love our neighbor, and, more than a mere mental exercise, to actually SHOW our neighbor that love, and SHOW God that love. And that law that is written in our hearts shows us, instructs us, in HOW to do that.
Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Clearly according to the above verse those who live by faith in Jesus ARE Righteous. The law is not for the Righteous. Now i have backed up my comments both with direct scriptures. Please show me a scripture that backs up yours. Thanks

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2009, 05:14 PM
Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Clearly according to the above verse those who live by faith in Jesus ARE Righteous. The law is not for the Righteous. Now i have backed up my comments both with direct scriptures. Please show me a scripture that backs up yours. ThanksOkay, you desire me to show you the scripture (implying that what I was saying was not scriptural, of course), so here it is:
Romans 3:9-18
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (that would include you and me of course)
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Do we have righteousness? Yes, but not our own. You are not righteous in and of yourself. The righteousness you have is the righteousness of Christ in you, received of Him.

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [I][which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned(including you and me), and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness:(not ours) that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So you see, you are not righteous, you have the righteousness of Christ.
But now that we have Christ's righteousness (and not our own), does that somehow negate the law? Or render it void, or useless?

Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 05:44 PM
Okay, you desire me to show you the scripture (implying that what I was saying was not scriptural, of course), so here it is:
Romans 3:9-18
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (that would include you and me of course)
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Do we have righteousness? Yes, but not our own. You are not righteous in and of yourself. The righteousness you have is the righteousness of Christ in you, received of Him.

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [I][which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned(including you and me), and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness:(not ours) that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So you see, you are not righteous, you have the righteousness of Christ.
But now that we have Christ's righteousness (and not our own), does that somehow negate the law? Or render it void, or useless?

Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.




There are two problems with your argument. First Romans 3 1-20 is directed at both Jews & Greeks who are without Jesus. Those without Jesus are not Justified. You also conveniently let off verses 19 & 20

Romans 3:19-20

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Starting with verse 21

Righteousness Through Faith

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

We now have righteousness in Jesus Christ.

Again, Those in Jesus are righteous & the righteous are NOT under law.

Please Give me another verse!

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2009, 06:46 PM
There are two problems with your argument. First Romans 3 1-20 is directed at both Jews & Greeks who are without Jesus. Those without Jesus are not Justified. The scripture says otherwise my friend. Look at it. Here it is:
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The entire book is written to all those in Rome, both Jew and Gentile, who are called to be saints. The called ones. The ones who are already saints.
This is confirmed in chapter seven:
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


You also conveniently let off verses 19 & 20
Romans 3:19-20
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.I 'conveniently left it off because it was not part of my argument. And nowhere have I made the claim that righteousness comes by observing the law, and further, in my past post, I said virtually the same thing, that we become conscious of sin by the law. In other words, sin is defined. We learn what sin is. Sin is the breaking of the law of God. When the law reveals to us what sin is, we realize that we are guilty of it and in need of a Savior.

Righteousness Through Faith
We now have righteousness in Jesus Christ.Right. Precisely what I was saying. Our righteousness is not our own, but that which Christ has given us. Now that He has given it to us, we have it. But it's still not ours. It's His.


Again, Those in Jesus are righteous & the righteous are NOT under law.Right. But do you have a clue what 'being under the law' even means?


Please Give me another verse!Just any old verse, or something in particular?

Teke
Apr 13th 2009, 07:46 PM
No, I cannot. I am simply quoting Hebrews, which states that with a change of priesthood there has to be a change of law.

I believe this post says it all. Moses was/is Moses, and Jesus is Lord.
For me this isn't hard to relate to. As in my church there are bishops which shepherd (guide) the flock of the faithful. They are the episcopal of/for Christ, not Moses. I believe any difference should be clear.

However convaluted, the priesthood of Moses rejected (would not accept according to their terms or understanding) that which God promised them.

And to answer the thread's question, "Is Torah Scripture, God's Word". No scripture is not the Son of God. It is a written work of man, of which God was the inspiration for. Which is why it is part of the church's tradition. ie. patristic writings However it is also "canon", which means it can be useful for guidance.

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2009, 08:14 PM
Thank you for the clarification. The thing with those who had the law is that in having it, they did not obey it. Further, when they did obey it, it was an outward thing and not of the heart. In other words, they could outwardly not kill their brother but inwardly hate him. The law is spiritual, as Paul said, and is a matter of the heart, not just outward acts.


Yes, we do need to repent. That of course entails more than merely 'saying' you repent. It requires actually stopping that thing and walking the right way. But, how do we determine the right way? That is the purpose of the law, to instruct us in the right way.

How does the law teach us how to love one another as God has commanded, other than to show us what we should not do to hurt one another which is what fulfills the law?

For those that do not have the law and are saved in the same way as those that have the law, love and faith in Christ is the only thing that applies to both.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 08:15 PM
The scripture says otherwise my friend. Look at it. Here it is:
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The entire book is written to all those in Rome, both Jew and Gentile, who are called to be saints. The called ones. The ones who are already saints.
This is confirmed in chapter seven:
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I 'conveniently left it off because it was not part of my argument. And nowhere have I made the claim that righteousness comes by observing the law, and further, in my past post, I said virtually the same thing, that we become conscious of sin by the law. In other words, sin is defined. We learn what sin is. Sin is the breaking of the law of God. When the law reveals to us what sin is, we realize that we are guilty of it and in need of a Savior.
Right. Precisely what I was saying. Our righteousness is not our own, but that which Christ has given us. Now that He has given it to us, we have it. But it's still not ours. It's His.

Right. But do you have a clue what 'being under the law' even means?

Just any old verse, or something in particular?
That is without question wrong to use whom the book is written to define who the chapters are talking about. Totally out of context period. You need to re-read hebrews in total.
When we are clothed in Jesus righteousness it becomes our righteousness.

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2009, 08:17 PM
Since when is Paul God?

That is a very interesting question, and the answer is even more interesting.

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2009, 08:20 PM
That is without question wrong to use whom the book is written to define who the chapters are talking about. Totally out of context period.Well, perhaps in your rulebook. Not mine. But that's okay. Feel free to interpret any way you desire.;)

You need to re-read hebrews in total. Thanks, I will.

When we are clothed in Jesus righteousness it becomes our righteousness.Scripture please?

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 08:26 PM
How does the law teach us how to love one another as God has commanded, other than to show us what we should not do to hurt one another which is what fulfills the law?

For those that do not have the law and are saved in the same way as those that have the law, love and faith in Christ is the only thing that applies to both.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Love as a verb requires action, because it is an action word that demands objective application towards another. How is love put into action and application. How to love has been taken out of mankind's hands. Our efforts of love fall short of agape benelovent love. Our love is no better than our righteousness. So, God gave us instructions upon our heart and His spirit to teach of love and its proper application towards him and our neighbor according to His ways, not our own.

Our love is partial, distance related, bias, prejudice, situational, co-dependent, demanding, and self-centered. God's love is neither of these.


I am willing to bet, by the way some communicate with others at times on this forum (I stand guilty as well) fail to apply love, hence commit sin at times. The biggest crime being lack of an intimacy for others for want of our senses needing to physically know or be familiar with a person.

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 08:30 PM
That is without question wrong to use whom the book is written to define who the chapters are talking about. Totally out of context period. You need to re-read hebrews in total.
When we are clothed in Jesus righteousness it becomes our righteousness.

Hey no fair, I answered your questions. Why want you answer my questions regarding sin and reaping.

I have three questions for you:
Do you still commit sin?
Do you not reap what you sow?
If you do reap bad consequences after you transgress. why?

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 08:30 PM
Well, perhaps in your rulebook. Not mine. But that's okay. Feel free to interpret any way you desire.;)
Thanks, I will.
Scripture please?
Romans 5:18-20
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2009, 08:34 PM
Love as a verb requires action, because it is an action word that demands objective application towards another. How is love put into action and application. How to love has been taken out of mankind's hands. Our efforts of love fall short of agape benelovent love. Our love is no better than our righteousness. So, God gave us instructions upon our heart and His spirit to teach of love and its proper application towards him and our neighbor according to His ways, not our own.

Our love is partial, distance related, bias, prejudice, situational, co-dependent, demanding, and self-centered. God's love is neither of these.


I am willing to bet, by the way some communicate with others at times on this forum (I stand guilty as well) fail to apply love, hence commit sin at times. The biggest crime being lack of an intimacy for others for want of our senses needing to physically know or be familiar with a person.

Love truly is an action, so according to Gods commandment who have we been commended to love?

Jn 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jn 14:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn 15:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 08:35 PM
Romans 5:18-20
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Whats up.

Would you return the favor.

I want to know why grace does not remove the negative consequences when we do wrongful things sometimes. Could it be an old formula or equation in play.

Kahtar
Apr 13th 2009, 08:37 PM
How does the law teach us how to love one another as God has commanded, other than to show us what we should not do to hurt one another which is what fulfills the law?I would suggest going and reading the law to find your answer, but I know you won't do that, so I'll provide a few for you:
Love and Brotherhood
To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Lev. 19:18)
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16)
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17)
Not to carry tales (Lev. 19:16)
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17)
Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18)
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18)
Not to put any Jew to shame (Lev. 19:17)
Not to curse any other Israelite (Lev. 19:14) (by implication: if you may not curse those who cannot hear, you certainly may not curse those who can)
Not to give occasion to the simple-minded to stumble on the road (Lev. 19:14) (this includes doing anything that will cause another to sin)
To rebuke the sinner (Lev. 19:17)
To relieve a neighbor of his burden and help to unload his beast (Ex. 23:5)
To assist in replacing the load upon a neighbor's beast (Deut. 22:4)
Not to leave a beast, that has fallen down beneath its burden, unaided (Deut. 22:4)
The Poor and Unfortunate
Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21)
Not to reap the entire field (Lev. 19:9; Lev. 23:22)
To leave the unreaped corner of the field or orchard for the poor (Lev. 19:9)
Not to gather gleanings (the ears that have fallen to the ground while reaping) (Lev. 19:9)
To leave the gleanings for the poor (Lev. 19:9)
Not to gather ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard (Lev. 19:10)
To leave ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10; Deut. 24:21)
Not to gather the peret (grapes) that have fallen to the ground (Lev. 19:10)
To leave peret (the single grapes) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10)
Not to return to take a forgotten sheaf (Deut. 24:19) This applies to all fruit trees (Deut. 24:20)
To leave the forgotten sheaves for the poor (Deut. 24:19-20)
Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man and giving him what he needs (Deut. 15:7)
To give charity according to one's means (Deut. 15:11)


For those that do not have the law and are saved in the same way as those that have the law, love and faith in Christ is the only thing that applies to both.Since our salvation has nothing to do at all with the law or our doing of it, as you know, I don't know why you're bringing it up.
As for love and faith, love fulfills the whole law you are so adamantly against, and faith without works is dead.


God bless you!

FirstfruitsGod bless you too.;)

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2009, 08:41 PM
Whats up.

Would you return the favor.

I want to know why grace does not remove the negative consequences when we do wrongful things sometimes. Could it be an old formula or equation in play.

If those that do not have the law are and those that have the law are all guilty of sin, what is the formula that God has set in place for all whether Jew or Gentile, withor without the law?

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 09:00 PM
If those that do not have the law are and those that have the law are all guilty of sin, what is the formula that God has set in place for all whether Jew or Gentile, withor without the law?

Firstfruits

The same one He's always had. :)

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 10:06 PM
Hey no fair, I answered your questions. Why want you answer my questions regarding sin and reaping.

I have three questions for you:
Do you still commit sin?
Do you not reap what you sow?
If you do reap bad consequences after you transgress. why?
Hey,
Do i commit sin? yes i do & will until the day i die.
The deal is Jesus paid the price for my sin & your sin. God no longer judges people on their sins. God judges on who you know. Jesus.
Manichunter, I have posted the relevant scriptures many many times. We are going in circles. That's the reason i was frustrated with the post. Can we move on to something else?

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 10:15 PM
Hey,
Do i commit sin? yes i do & will until the day i die.
The deal is Jesus paid the price for my sin & your sin. God no longer judges people on their sins. God judges on who you know. Jesus.
Manichunter, I have posted the relevant scriptures many many times. We are going in circles. That's the reason i was frustrated with the post. Can we move on to something else?

No problem. I will reframe from addressing the topic with you sir. I do not think your frustration comes from the posting, but another inner source, because I have in no fashion tried to antagonize you or joke with you.

Me and you are on to another topic as you wish............ thanks for the dialogue.

embankmentlb
Apr 13th 2009, 10:27 PM
No problem. I will reframe from addressing the topic with you sir. I do not think your frustration comes from the posting, but another inner source, because I have in no fashion tried to antagonize you or joke with you.

Me and you are on to another topic as you wish............ thanks for the dialogue.
Nice comeback , Yep thanks for dialogue.
There are about 3 or 4 of you guys that are on the same page & it's a lot of work to respond to each ones posts! I am doing my best to put all my answers in context & list relevant scriptures. Tomorrow you guys have it all to yourself as i have to do some paying work & my hands need a rest.
Hey, Question! What Church do you guys represent?

Teke
Apr 13th 2009, 10:28 PM
Manichunter, why did you start this thread. To reveal the law in scripture?
Or are you making a case that God's "words" = law......or what????
I'm :confused

manichunter
Apr 14th 2009, 12:08 AM
Nice comeback , Yep thanks for dialogue.
There are about 3 or 4 of you guys that are on the same page & it's a lot of work to respond to each ones posts! I am doing my best to put all my answers in context & list relevant scriptures. Tomorrow you guys have it all to yourself as i have to do some paying work & my hands need a rest.
Hey, Question! What Church do you guys represent?

I personaly do not represent any church, but the Kingdom of God. I am an assistant pastor of a congregation in Houston, Texas, US of about two hundred.

I do not adhere to any denominational affiliation.

We practice the festival system, offering system in spiritual application, Sabbath, New Moons, and tithing. Everything else is in league with the norms of mainstream Christianity. For all practical purposes, we are the same in that we have the same Lord, recieved the same sacrificial gift of salvation, and going through the same process of sanctification.

We call ourselves christians, spiritual Israel, or believers (it really does not matter). We have unbelievers and believers alike in our congregation. We do not force the Scriptural observations on anybody (some of the members still observe Easter).

I have been saved seventeen years. I was raised Baptist. Preached and taught as member of several denomination, until 1998. I have since undergone a doctrine change slightly to what you see. It did not change my foundation which is still Christ and Him crucified. For all practical purposes our regenerated spirit man is the same. It is in our soul that we are different and separated in our beliefs, experiences, and encounters.

What I now believe took a while to set up because I am natural skeptic and I love to operation in tradition. However, when presented with new things, we are required to test the spirit to see if it be of God. Hence, my personal conclusion lead me to keep going.

I am by no means bound, cursed, or imprisoned by any law. It does present a threat to my selfish free will and independence. But I will leave that alone.

I am very personal now when I was not in the past. I was an introvert, but as you can tell, no longer. I have a burden and love for all saints. This is what I had to learn as a seminary teacher and minister. Sometimes news is so good, that you just can't keep it to yourself.

manichunter
Apr 14th 2009, 12:15 AM
Manichunter, why did you start this thread. To reveal the law in scripture?
Or are you making a case that God's "words" = law......or what????
I'm :confused

I saw what you wrote earlier. Interesting. :idea:

I had no wrongful motive other than to share and learn from others. ''

I believe every word God inspired in the writers in their writing of the Bible is Scripture. That includes what God told Moses on the Sinai. As Paul said, all Scripture is God-given by revelation and inspiration.

Correct. Jesus is the Word, not the same words written on paper. But there is a relationship between the two. He is the living word, the very source of all life and creation that speaks things from the invisible to the visible. The written word reveals and manifest Him through the agent of Holy Spirit. His will, character, and mission are recorded in it as a witness, as He said all these things testify of me.............

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2009, 06:33 AM
I would suggest going and reading the law to find your answer, but I know you won't do that, so I'll provide a few for you:
Love and Brotherhood
To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Lev. 19:18)
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16)
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17)
Not to carry tales (Lev. 19:16)
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17)
Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18)
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18)
Not to put any Jew to shame (Lev. 19:17)
Not to curse any other Israelite (Lev. 19:14) (by implication: if you may not curse those who cannot hear, you certainly may not curse those who can)
Not to give occasion to the simple-minded to stumble on the road (Lev. 19:14) (this includes doing anything that will cause another to sin)
To rebuke the sinner (Lev. 19:17)
To relieve a neighbor of his burden and help to unload his beast (Ex. 23:5)
To assist in replacing the load upon a neighbor's beast (Deut. 22:4)
Not to leave a beast, that has fallen down beneath its burden, unaided (Deut. 22:4)
The Poor and Unfortunate
Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21)
Not to reap the entire field (Lev. 19:9; Lev. 23:22)
To leave the unreaped corner of the field or orchard for the poor (Lev. 19:9)
Not to gather gleanings (the ears that have fallen to the ground while reaping) (Lev. 19:9)
To leave the gleanings for the poor (Lev. 19:9)
Not to gather ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard (Lev. 19:10)
To leave ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10; Deut. 24:21)
Not to gather the peret (grapes) that have fallen to the ground (Lev. 19:10)
To leave peret (the single grapes) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10)
Not to return to take a forgotten sheaf (Deut. 24:19) This applies to all fruit trees (Deut. 24:20)
To leave the forgotten sheaves for the poor (Deut. 24:19-20)
Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man and giving him what he needs (Deut. 15:7)
To give charity according to one's means (Deut. 15:11)

Since our salvation has nothing to do at all with the law or our doing of it, as you know, I don't know why you're bringing it up.
As for love and faith, love fulfills the whole law you are so adamantly against, and faith without works is dead.

God bless you too.;)

So those that have the law know what God has commanded Israel, however let me say this so that it is clear, No matter how I may keep the law that you believe I am against, as far as God is concerned it does not change my standing with God I am still under sin. I am no different than one that does not keep the law. Whether Jew or gentile we are all under sin and nothing we do or do not do in the law makes any difference with God. It does however make a difference for whoever believes it does, but not with God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2009, 06:36 AM
The same one He's always had. :)

So that would be love, since as it is written is the message we have had from the begining.

God bless You!

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 14th 2009, 12:56 PM
So those that have the law know what God has commanded Israel, however let me say this so that it is clear, No matter how I may keep the law that you believe I am against, as far as God is concerned it does not change my standing with God I am still under sin. I am no different than one that does not keep the law. Whether Jew or gentile we are all under sin and nothing we do or do not do in the law makes any difference with God. It does however make a difference for whoever believes it does, but not with God.

God bless you!

FirstfruitsYes, we are all sinful, none of us can keep the law perfectly. That's why Christ came. But because we are not able to keep it perfectly does not mean we should not try, or that we should just go ahead and sin all we want. What does Paul say about that?
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
How do we walk in newness of life? How do we 'be holy as I am holy'?
Like this:
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
If obeying His commandments makes no difference to Him, as you say, then why all these scriptures that say otherwise?
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2009, 03:11 PM
Yes, we are all sinful, none of us can keep the law perfectly. That's why Christ came. But because we are not able to keep it perfectly does not mean we should not try, or that we should just go ahead and sin all we want. What does Paul say about that?
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
How do we walk in newness of life? How do we 'be holy as I am holy'?
Like this:
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
If obeying His commandments makes no difference to Him, as you say, then why all these scriptures that say otherwise?
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.


Even if we could keep the whole law we would still be guilty of sin, we would still be unrighteous according to what God has declared. If keeping the law was pleasing in Gods sight then after keeping it why would God still declare that we are still unclean and unrighteous or that there is none that doeth good?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 14th 2009, 03:22 PM
Even if we could keep the whole law we would still be guilty of sin, we would still be unrighteous according to what God has declared. If keeping the law was pleasing in Gods sight then after keeping it why would God still declare that we are still unclean and unrighteous or that there is none that doeth good?
God bless you!
FirstfruitsYou're forgetting one little detail here my friend. Those who have accepted Christ and His work on the cross in our behalf have taken on the righteousness of Christ. Because of Christ, God views us as being clean and righteous, because, even though we continue to stumble and fail at every turn, ALL those things have already been paid for by Christ.
Our part now is to listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit, who directs our steps and leads us into those good works that display His life in us.
We don't obey His commandments to earn or keep salvation or righteousness. Rather, we obey Him because were ARE saved and made righteous by Him. We strive to be holy as He is holy, not to earn anything, but because we are already in Him.

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2009, 03:47 PM
You're forgetting one little detail here my friend. Those who have accepted Christ and His work on the cross in our behalf have taken on the righteousness of Christ. Because of Christ, God views us as being clean and righteous, because, even though we continue to stumble and fail at every turn, ALL those things have already been paid for by Christ.
Our part now is to listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit, who directs our steps and leads us into those good works that display His life in us.
We don't obey His commandments to earn or keep salvation or righteousness. Rather, we obey Him because were ARE saved and made righteous by Him. We strive to be holy as He is holy, not to earn anything, but because we are already in Him.

Those that have accepted Christ have not accepted Christ through the law but by faith, whether or not we have the law we are all cleansed in the same way. As I said before, keeping the commandments of the law make no difference because all are one under sin and only by faith can we receive the righteousness of God.

If keeping the law was recognized by God then those that keep it would not still be classed with those that do not, as we have been.

Again it is not a case of being against the law but God has made us to rely on Christ and not the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 14th 2009, 04:01 PM
FF, Paul says in Romans that the defintiion of sin is transgression of Torah, so if you rely on Messiah 100%, you'll be 100% Torah observent. (free of sin) That's the fruit.

Vhayes
Apr 14th 2009, 04:48 PM
I hear you kind lady. I have a hypothesis behind this one.

Hypothesis- The principle of not being unevenly yoke with unbelievers or sin ladden saints.

I have yet to discover the spiritual revelation behind that specific judgment. That was not a commandment, but judgment.
To me, that's an easy one - where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

My aunt who heard the truth, knew what it meant intellectually, understood the consequences of rejecting the Gift that Christ offered and yet, she said, "If Bob (her husband) is in hell, I would rather be in hell with him than anywhere, including heaven, without him."

And she was dead serious. She is gone now and I am fairly certain I will never see her again. Although, her last few years were ones where she suffered with Alzheimers. She had conversations with her son thinking he was Bob, so she did get to "spend" time with him before she died in one sense. Who knows what she "discovered" in those last few years?
V

Kahtar
Apr 14th 2009, 04:56 PM
Those that have accepted Christ have not accepted Christ through the law but by faith, whether or not we have the law we are all cleansed in the same way.Right. That's what I just said.

As I said before, keeping the commandments of the law make no difference because all are one under sin and only by faith can we receive the righteousness of God.Keeping the commandments of the law makes no difference in regard to our salvation, because all are one under sin and only by faith can we receive the righteousness of God.


If keeping the law was recognized by God then those that keep it would not still be classed with those that do not, as we have been.Keeping of the law IS recognized by God, as the several passages I gave you clearly indicate. Perhaps you ignored those, or didn't see them. Do you not see that accepting the Lamb is PART of that obedience? There is a class difference. Those who accept Christ and all that entails, and those who reject Christ.

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2009, 05:12 PM
FF, Paul says in Romans that the defintiion of sin is transgression of Torah, so if you rely on Messiah 100%, you'll be 100% Torah observent. (free of sin) That's the fruit.

If you have faith in Christ you will be saved. It is because God knew that no one was keeping the law as he gave it that he made his declaration that we are all under sin. Now those that never had the law and those that have the law have no advantage over the other.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 14th 2009, 05:18 PM
Those that have accepted Christ have not accepted Christ through the law but by faith, whether or not we have the law we are all cleansed in the same way. As I said before, keeping the commandments of the law make no difference because all are one under sin and only by faith can we receive the righteousness of God.

If keeping the law was recognized by God then those that keep it would not still be classed with those that do not, as we have been.

Again it is not a case of being against the law but God has made us to rely on Christ and not the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

We are both given relational righteousness via our covenant with Jesus, not a personal righteousness which still sticks. However, does our relationship and covenant with Jesus automactically grant us holiness as well?

I say no. A personal holiness is demonstrated in our conduct and attitude.

That is something you keep leaving out, and I just caught it. You say a person who tries to keep Torah is doing it in vain. However, you forgot one thing. A person's motive and attitude is also judged by God when we act. If I say I love somebody, then I give them something expecting something in return, then I am not loving them. The same goes with Torah. If I am observing Torah but my motives are wrong such as trying to earn a personal righteousness, then I am not practicing Torah.

Do you not see the same immulated throughout the church without Torah. People attempting to be religious with wrong and selfish motives. It happens........... I personaly know from my own conduct in the past.

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2009, 05:22 PM
Right. That's what I just said.
Keeping the commandments of the law makes no difference in regard to our salvation, because all are one under sin and only by faith can we receive the righteousness of God.

Keeping of the law IS recognized by God, as the several passages I gave you clearly indicate. Perhaps you ignored those, or didn't see them. Do you not see that accepting the Lamb is PART of that obedience? There is a class difference. Those who accept Christ and all that entails, and those who reject Christ.

If the law was recognized then if you kept the law as God has commanded then he could not then say of those that have done so that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles we could not be all under sin as God has said we are. Those that have never had the law can receive Gods righteousness and be clean above one that has kept the law unless the one that has the law has done as the one without the law, and that is by faith in Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 14th 2009, 05:31 PM
If the law was recognized then if you kept the law as God has commanded then he could not then say of those that have done so that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles we could not be all under sin as God has said we are. Those that have never had the law can receive Gods righteousness and be clean above one that has kept the law unless the one that has the law has done as the one without the law, and that is by faith in Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Do you sin, FF? I am sure you do.

What defines sin as transgression against God? The Torah/Scripture

If you do not know Torah, how do you know if you are committing sin when you abritrary choose to do something? You don't

For him who knows to do right but don't, to him that is sin....... The first right thing to do is learn how to love and beloved.

When God speak does He always agree with Scripture?

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2009, 05:36 PM
We are both given relational righteousness via our covenant with Jesus, not a personal righteousness which still sticks. However, does our relationship and covenant with Jesus automactically grant us holiness as well?

I say no. A personal holiness is demonstrated in our conduct and attitude.

That is something you keep leaving out, and I just caught it. You say a person who tries to keep Torah is doing it in vain. However, you forgot one thing. A person's motive and attitude is also judged by God when we act. If I say I love somebody, then I give them something expecting something in return, then I am not loving them. The same goes with Torah. If I am observing Torah but my motives are wrong such as trying to earn a personal righteousness, then I am not practicing Torah.

Do you not see the same immulated throughout the church without Torah. People attempting to be religious with wrong and selfish motives. It happens........... I personaly know from my own conduct in the past.

There is no righteousness that can be achieved through the law, the righteousness we receive is of God and not our own. Whether we keep the law or not we are all unclean in the sight of God. Keeping the law cannot change or help that position.

If you can be blessed through keeping the law then God cannot declare uncleaness for those that do so, as he has done, unless you are saying that God will bless us for doing wrong, as he has also said there is none that has done good.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2009, 05:47 PM
Do you sin, FF? I am sure you do.

What defines sin as transgression against God? The Torah/Scripture

If you do not know Torah, how do you know if you are committing sin when you abritrary choose to do something? You don't

For him who knows to do right but don't, to him that is sin....... The first right thing to do is learn how to love and beloved.

When God speak does He always agree with Scripture?

That is a very good question, how do those that do not have the law know that they are under sin and need to come to Christ in order to be saved, was it through faith or through the law?

How are those that do not have the law made righteous without bthe law?

How are those without the law made just in the sight of God?

Do not forget that those that have the law have been declared unrighteous by God, why do you think this is so?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 14th 2009, 07:24 PM
If you have faith in Christ you will be saved. It is because God knew that no one was keeping the law as he gave it that he made his declaration that we are all under sin. Now those that never had the law and those that have the law have no advantage over the other.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

FF, for the last time (LOL)

I AM SAVED

Now can I love God as He asked me to?

manichunter
Apr 15th 2009, 12:20 AM
There is no righteousness that can be achieved through the law, the righteousness we receive is of God and not our own. Whether we keep the law or not we are all unclean in the sight of God. Keeping the law cannot change or help that position.

If you can be blessed through keeping the law then God cannot declare uncleaness for those that do so, as he has done, unless you are saying that God will bless us for doing wrong, as he has also said there is none that has done good.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I did not say the torah makes anyone righteous. I said the opposite. It shows us the areas of our life where we are still disobediant, defiling ourselves, harming others, and decieving ourselves.

Yahweh promise both blessings and curses. Why do you only know and talk about the curses that came with not obeying the torah. There were blessings as well. Were these promised blessings made obsolete.

It is funny how most large and well established churches often quote and claim the blessings of the OT without considering the context of their origin.

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2009, 06:37 AM
I did not say the torah makes anyone righteous. I said the opposite. It shows us the areas of our life where we are still disobediant, defiling ourselves, harming others, and decieving ourselves.

Yahweh promise both blessings and curses. Why do you only know and talk about the curses that came with not obeying the torah. There were blessings as well. Were these promised blessings made obsolete.

It is funny how most large and well established churches often quote and claim the blessings of the OT without considering the context of their origin.

Yahweh promise both blessings and curses. Why do you only know and talk about the curses that came with not obeying the torah. There were blessings as well. Were these promised blessings made obsolete.

Because God has declared that there are none that do good according to his law, there is none righteous we are therefore all destined for hell whether or not we have the law. So Ask yourself why has God said that those that have the law are all under sin?

Are there blessing for sinning?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 15th 2009, 02:06 PM
Yahweh promise both blessings and curses. Why do you only know and talk about the curses that came with not obeying the torah. There were blessings as well. Were these promised blessings made obsolete.

Because God has declared that there are none that do good according to his law, there is none righteous we are therefore all destined for hell whether or not we have the law. So Ask yourself why has God said that those that have the law are all under sin?

Are there blessing for sinning?

God bless you!

Firstfruits,

No, there are blessings for obeying God, being faithful and trusting God to His Word and voice.

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2009, 02:42 PM
,

No, there are blessings for obeying God, being faithful and trusting God to His Word and voice.

So Ask yourself why has God said that those that have the law are all under sin even though they have the law?

Knowing that God has said we are all under sin even if they have the law, can we expect to be blessed since keeping the law cannot change that we are unrighteous?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 16th 2009, 06:32 AM
So Ask yourself why has God said that those that have the law are all under sin even though they have the law?

Knowing that God has said we are all under sin even if they have the law, can we expect to be blessed since keeping the law cannot change that we are unrighteous?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I am not talking about righteousness. We agree on this dear brother. I am talking about holiness and the fact that is not the same as righteousness. We are both in right legal standing with God because of our kinman redeemer, but do we act the part is the question.

Why was Jesus without sin? What did he do that was so perfect? We both know, however, we differ on whether the saints are still required to immulate him on any capacity after His example.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2009, 07:36 AM
I am not talking about righteousness. We agree on this dear brother. I am talking about holiness and the fact that is not the same as righteousness. We are both in right legal standing with God because of our kinman redeemer, but do we act the part is the question.

Why was Jesus without sin? What did he do that was so perfect? We both know, however, we differ on whether the saints are still required to immulate him on any capacity after His example.

I am not sure why you say there is a difference between being righteous and being holy with regards to the following;

1 Pet 1:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Pet 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Rev 22:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

We cannot say we are righteous and yet be unholy. We cannot be holy and yet be unrighteous. You cannot have one without the other if you are in Christ.

As for your second question, this may help you.

Heb 7:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Jesus is God!!!!!!!!

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 16th 2009, 12:13 PM
I am not sure why you say there is a difference between being righteous and being holy with regards to the following;

1 Pet 1:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Pet 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Rev 22:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

We cannot say we are righteous and yet be unholy. We cannot be holy and yet be unrighteous. You cannot have one without the other if you are in Christ.

As for your second question, this may help you.

Heb 7:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Jesus is God!!!!!!!!

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Jesus gave us a command to be Holy as He is holy. It is never said to be righteous as our righteousness has been earned by ........... I know you know :lol:, you have typed it several times.

Seriously, I use to treat them as the same as well.

Until I saw that they were different by definition and demand.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2009, 02:22 PM
Jesus gave us a command to be Holy as He is holy. It is never said to be righteous as our righteousness has been earned by ........... I know you know :lol:, you have typed it several times.

Seriously, I use to treat them as the same as well.

Until I saw that they were different by definition and demand.

With regards to the following how do you follow after righteousness if you are already righteous?

1 Tim 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

2 Tim 2:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Tit 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=56&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

God is righteous and God is holy, are we not to live righteously and holy in the sight of God?

Ps 145:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=145&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

If you are unholy you are unclean. If you are unrighteous you are unclean.
if you are holy you are clean. If you are righteous you are clean.

There is no difference.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 16th 2009, 03:26 PM
FF, can you keep "Love your neighbor as yourself" perfectly?

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2009, 03:45 PM
FF, can you keep "Love your neighbor as yourself" perfectly?

With regards to the following the answer is yes, it is possible.

Mt 7:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

If it were not possible then we would still be unrighteous, we would still be unholy. Even if we did sin according to Gods covenant we are covered by the fact that we can be fogiven.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 16th 2009, 08:52 PM
So, never once, since you were saved, in your heart or in your actions you have not broken one iota of this command? Is that what you are saying?

manichunter
Apr 16th 2009, 09:22 PM
With regards to the following the answer is yes, it is possible.

Mt 7:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

If it were not possible then we would still be unrighteous, we would still be unholy. Even if we did sin according to Gods covenant we are covered by the fact that we can be fogiven.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Sometimes the world says things like: talk is cheap, put up or shut up, I do not want to litsen but see what happens, and shut up and prove it.

It is not about bragging, making a boast, or earning credit with God, but I say the same thing as you according to the words of Jesus. It is about loving God in a similiar means that a spouse should love their partner. A man can say he loves his wife all day long, but she will be needing the proof that actions give. That would be consistent, tangible, and focused actions. Well God provided consistency, tangible, focused standards of proof that are perfect and holy. Who better could and should define love and how to love.

Jesus qoutation about loving God and neighbor was not a new expression. Both came from the OT. He was quoting something that was already a part of Torah, that pointed to what it was all about.

mizzdy
Apr 16th 2009, 09:50 PM
With regards to the following the answer is yes, it is possible.

Mt 7:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

If it were not possible then we would still be unrighteous, we would still be unholy. Even if we did sin according to Gods covenant we are covered by the fact that we can be fogiven.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

One of the biggest points of the sermon on the mt. was Christ showing forth the laws, He was after all speaking to those who were saved. Notice that Christ went up into the mt. and then the disciples joined Him. The doctrine of Christ in the last portions of the sermon on the mt. is far from being in conflict of the gospel it shines the light on the truth that the gospel demands obedience from all of us, 'the obedience of faith' spelled out in Rom. 1, 6, 15, 16). Christ said "Make the tree good and his fruit good.' how do we do that but by putting into practice the loving of one another and allowing Christ to work in us to change our hearts towards all that God expects from us. And if obedience is called for what are we to obey? All through the sermon chapters Christ is showing the divine laws and how they are in your heart and through love we are obeying Christ's commandments. After all doesn't the scripture say itself that '...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2Thess. 8) I suppose one needs to find out what it is Christ wants us to obey, for me its is His laws and ways. What is so grievous in that or how is that legalistic?

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2009, 07:51 AM
So, never once, since you were saved, in your heart or in your actions you have not broken one iota of this command? Is that what you are saying?

Your question was: can you keep "Love your neighbor as yourself" perfectly?

Lets us look at what has been taught;

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Have I commited adultery? NO

Have I killed? NO.

Have I stolen? NO.

Have I beared false witness against anther? NO.

Have I coveted that which another has? NO.

Have I worked any ill to my neighbour? NO.

Is there any other commandment that would cause me to work ill to my neighbour you would like to mention?

As I have said before, God has set in place Christ for us if we do falter or sin.

Other than that does that answer your question concerning the law of love?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 01:20 PM
Have I stolen? NO.

Have I beared false witness against anther? NO.

Have I coveted that which another has? NO.

Firstfruits


You are perfect if you have done any of these transgressions. LOL :rofl:

False witness covers everything from gossip, slander, not intervening when you should (lie of omission), and simply lieing.

Coveting includes thoughts and attitudes as well to include a proud look, vanity, lust, idolatry, and the like.

Stealing includes not paying people back, taking that pen from work and not bringing it back.

Murder is also destroying one's reputation.

Just jabbing at you buddy............ :lol:

Teke
Apr 17th 2009, 01:43 PM
One of the biggest points of the sermon on the mt. was Christ showing forth the laws, He was after all speaking to those who were saved. Notice that Christ went up into the mt. and then the disciples joined Him. The doctrine of Christ in the last portions of the sermon on the mt. is far from being in conflict of the gospel it shines the light on the truth that the gospel demands obedience from all of us, 'the obedience of faith' spelled out in Rom. 1, 6, 15, 16). Christ said "Make the tree good and his fruit good.' how do we do that but by putting into practice the loving of one another and allowing Christ to work in us to change our hearts towards all that God expects from us. And if obedience is called for what are we to obey? All through the sermon chapters Christ is showing the divine laws and how they are in your heart and through love we are obeying Christ's commandments. After all doesn't the scripture say itself that '...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2Thess. 8) I suppose one needs to find out what it is Christ wants us to obey, for me its is His laws and ways. What is so grievous in that or how is that legalistic?

It's not a "what" to be obedient to but a "who". Recall the man that came to Jesus and said he kept all the laws then asked Jesus what else was necessary. In essence, Jesus replied for the man to leave all and follow Him.
The man was unable to do that, although he was capable of following all the written "rules".

Our obedience is in our faith, not in rules. Jesus is The Ruler, not a set of rules. He calls us to a higher standard. Even Jesus said that Moses suffered them doing things, like divorce, which Jesus apparently disagrees with.

But His point was that there is a higher understanding, which can only be attained by faith. So His lesson to the man who kept all the law was that he had to leave it all behind and walk by faith in following Jesus.

There is plenty of proof in scripture that the laws from Sinai only made people self righteous in a complacent sort of way. IOW they sought to cut themselves out of a pattern given by the laws from Sinai.

Really the contrast is seen in the prophets. Show me the scriptures where all the prophets are "keeping the law". They did not need "the law" to know to withdraw from worldly carnal thinking. They physically did so by their faith. Their guidance and obedience lay with God alone. God called them, "law" did not call them. Nor were their messages on the observance of written laws.

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 02:25 PM
It's not a "what" to be obedient to but a "who". Recall the man that came to Jesus and said he kept all the laws then asked Jesus what else was necessary. In essence, Jesus replied for the man to leave all and follow Him.
The man was unable to do that, although he was capable of following all the written "rules".

Our obedience is in our faith, not in rules. Jesus is The Ruler, not a set of rules. He calls us to a higher standard. Even Jesus said that Moses suffered them doing things, like divorce, which Jesus apparently disagrees with.

But His point was that there is a higher understanding, which can only be attained by faith. So His lesson to the man who kept all the law was that he had to leave it all behind and walk by faith in following Jesus.

There is plenty of proof in scripture that the laws from Sinai only made people self righteous in a complacent sort of way. IOW they sought to cut themselves out of a pattern given by the laws from Sinai.

Really the contrast is seen in the prophets. Show me the scriptures where all the prophets are "keeping the law". They did not need "the law" to know to withdraw from worldly carnal thinking. They physically did so by their faith. Their guidance and obedience lay with God alone. God called them, "law" did not call them. Nor were their messages on the observance of written laws.


When Paul wrote the text do not be unevenly yoked with unbelievers, was he just making a suggestion or echoing a principle in and from the Torah?

I know personaly that he was speaking from the Torah as Paul often did to add proof to his inspirations. He used Torah to established spiritual principles to reinforce proper believer behaviour in the NT all the time.

Moses was commanded by God to tell the Israelites not to commune with the heathens. God gave the reasons and consequences for doing so. Then we have Paul saying and conveying the same old message for the same reasons. This is Paul reinforcing a principle founded in Torah. Hence, is Paul not respecting and observing the principles established by the Torah.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2009, 03:17 PM
One of the biggest points of the sermon on the mt. was Christ showing forth the laws, He was after all speaking to those who were saved. Notice that Christ went up into the mt. and then the disciples joined Him. The doctrine of Christ in the last portions of the sermon on the mt. is far from being in conflict of the gospel it shines the light on the truth that the gospel demands obedience from all of us, 'the obedience of faith' spelled out in Rom. 1, 6, 15, 16). Christ said "Make the tree good and his fruit good.' how do we do that but by putting into practice the loving of one another and allowing Christ to work in us to change our hearts towards all that God expects from us. And if obedience is called for what are we to obey? All through the sermon chapters Christ is showing the divine laws and how they are in your heart and through love we are obeying Christ's commandments. After all doesn't the scripture say itself that '...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2Thess. 8) I suppose one needs to find out what it is Christ wants us to obey, for me its is His laws and ways. What is so grievous in that or how is that legalistic?

What then is the law of Christ and what is the gospel by which we shall be judged?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2009, 03:22 PM
Sometimes the world says things like: talk is cheap, put up or shut up, I do not want to litsen but see what happens, and shut up and prove it.

It is not about bragging, making a boast, or earning credit with God, but I say the same thing as you according to the words of Jesus. It is about loving God in a similiar means that a spouse should love their partner. A man can say he loves his wife all day long, but she will be needing the proof that actions give. That would be consistent, tangible, and focused actions. Well God provided consistency, tangible, focused standards of proof that are perfect and holy. Who better could and should define love and how to love.

Jesus qoutation about loving God and neighbor was not a new expression. Both came from the OT. He was quoting something that was already a part of Torah, that pointed to what it was all about.

The message from Christ has not changed, and since Jesus is God it would be the same message;

1 Jn 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

God bless you!

firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 04:02 PM
The message from Christ has not changed, and since Jesus is God it would be the same message;

1 Jn 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

God bless you!

firstfruits

As Bill Orielly says, what say concerning my thread in reference to what Paul was reinforcing and reinterpreting. It is in the Bible Chat just below this thread.

Teke
Apr 17th 2009, 04:05 PM
When Paul wrote the text do not be unevenly yoked with unbelievers, was he just making a suggestion or echoing a principle in and from the Torah?

The concept is not exclusive to/from Torah. Even children are encouraged by their parents not to succumb to peer pressure that will conform them to sources outside of what their parents have taught them. And this is not only for marriage, but for all human relations. ie. prophets went to those of faith who weren't part of Israel, just as Israel married people outside of Israel


IOW whatever "Torah" says doesn't contradict the natural order God created.
ie. parenting
I am not one who believes in directing other peoples children away from what their parents have taught them. God put their parents in charge of them. I believe He knows better than me.

I wanted my previous post to point out how the law or the lack thereof isn't the objective of Christian faith. We don't need laws to direct us toward God. God directs everything in His manner, not ours. Which is also why I point out the prophets, who attained to the righteousness of God irregardless of anything else. ("Of whom the world was not worthy" Heb. 11:38)
Such is beyond what the world deems 'worthy'.

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 05:01 PM
The concept is not exclusive to/from Torah. Even children are encouraged by their parents not to succumb to peer pressure that will conform them to sources outside of what their parents have taught them. And this is not only for marriage, but for all human relations. ie. prophets went to those of faith who weren't part of Israel, just as Israel married people outside of Israel


IOW whatever "Torah" says doesn't contradict the natural order God created.
ie. parenting
I am not one who believes in directing other peoples children away from what their parents have taught them. God put their parents in charge of them. I believe He knows better than me.

I wanted my previous post to point out how the law or the lack thereof isn't the objective of Christian faith. We don't need laws to direct us toward God. God directs everything in His manner, not ours. Which is also why I point out the prophets, who attained to the righteousness of God irregardless of anything else. ("Of whom the world was not worthy" Heb. 11:38)
Such is beyond what the world deems 'worthy'.

Are you equating the mind of man with the mind of God. I mean are you saying that the wisdom of man and his thoughts of morally cannot be on par with God's Word?

I know you are not saying that. Can't be, right. We can live by our own wisdom, I believe differently.

Scripture says wisdom comes from God. I am not saying that people cannot have good thoughts, but we are never perfect even in our thinking and attempts of philosiphy.

Being unevenly yoked goes for all manner of relationships between believer and unbeliever. It does not mean we should not fellowship or associate with unbelievers, as long as we are in this world, this cannot be avoided. However, it does means that we should not commune with them. We have jobs and social events that so happens to have a gentile population in it, so beit. However, we are not to share in their sin or allow them to escape the presence of God we bring us.

Teke
Apr 17th 2009, 06:40 PM
Are you equating the mind of man with the mind of God.

Lord have mercy, no, I am not equating the mind of man with God's mind.


I mean are you saying that the wisdom of man and his thoughts of morally cannot be on par with God's Word?

Don't understand this question


I know you are not saying that. Can't be, right. We can live by our own wisdom, I believe differently.

Nobody lives by their own wisdom. That's why God gave us parents.


Scripture says wisdom comes from God. I am not saying that people cannot have good thoughts, but we are never perfect even in our thinking and attempts of philosiphy.

Right, "we are never perfect", even in our "attempts of philosophy" which includes a philosophy of what the OT laws mean. I name it as a "philosophy" because it isn't something that is taught to you by another person or persons. Which makes it a philosophical assumption.


Being unevenly yoked goes for all manner of relationships between believer and unbeliever. It does not mean we should not fellowship or associate with unbelievers, as long as we are in this world, this cannot be avoided. However, it does means that we should not commune with them. We have jobs and social events that so happens to have a gentile population in it, so beit. However, we are not to share in their sin or allow them to escape the presence of God we bring us.

We all comprise the whole of humanity, there is no way we can avoid communing with other persons, as we are created to do just that. Jesus exemplifies this in His communing with people that were rejected by others for one reason or another.

I am not saying we are to be drawn into sinful actions. But realistically, we all live amongst constant sinfulness. We must accept this and look for the good.
Phl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

We all bring a presence of God within us. The wise look for it. ;)

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 06:51 PM
Lord have mercy, no, I am not equating the mind of man with God's mind.

We all comprise the whole of humanity, there is no way we can avoid communing with other persons, as we are created to do just that. Jesus exemplifies this in His communing with people that were rejected by others for one reason or another.

I am not saying we are to be drawn into sinful actions. But realistically, we all live amongst constant sinfulness. We must accept this and look for the good.
Phl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

We all bring a presence of God within us. The wise look for it. ;)

Praise God, I did not want to assume anything, the reason why I asked.

Commune and fellowship are to different things by Scriptural definitions, as well as application?

We are to never unite with them for the same causes, share in their sin, or approve of their actions; but keeping company with them cannot be avoided.

Communion denotes coming into a oneness of purpose, reality, and identity. Fellowship is a when we share company with another not necessarily of the same purpose, reality, and identity, with oneness not being essential or mandatory.

mizzdy
Apr 17th 2009, 07:09 PM
What then is the law of Christ and what is the gospel by which we shall be judged?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I believe I asked you that myself in another thread and I did answer somewhere else. The law of Christ is the same law as His Fathers, and its is by that we all will be judged. Let me throw this out, how is having only one God and putting Him above all else a work? I can see where some will say it is, that we have to always keep in mind to do so but I say that its not a 'work' if Christ is dwelling with you guiding your mind. Is not commiting adultry a work also, for some it may be but with Christ we have the ablity to not to so and even if we lust in our hearts never fear we now have Christs sacrifice to cover the penalty or the curse for that sin and we are not condemned for our sin. But if we continue in that sin we will be judged just like any nonbeliever who is still under the curse or the penalty of the law. The law does not forgive, it does not save, it points to our needs of structure and guideance from God though His laws. Let me ask you this, since we all will stand before the judgement seat of Christ what it is it that He uses to judge?

Teke
Apr 17th 2009, 07:15 PM
Praise God, I did not want to assume anything, the reason why I asked.

Commune and fellowship are to different things by Scriptural definitions, as well as application?

We are to never unite with them for the same causes, share in their sin, or approve of their actions; but keeping company with them cannot be avoided.

Communion denotes coming into a oneness of purpose, reality, and identity. Fellowship is a when we share company with another not necessarily of the same purpose, reality, and identity, with oneness not being essential or mandatory.

Oneness is always essential. It is the only thing I know that will show any differences. Such as whether or not we honor/love our heavenly Father.
We are already in communion with each other in our humanity. However, not all of humanity is in communion with God.

Jesus said, "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God."John 5:44, also see Romans 2:29

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2009, 07:22 PM
I believe I asked you that myself in another thread and I did answer somewhere else. The law of Christ is the same law as His Fathers, and its is by that we all will be judged. Let me throw this out, how is having only one God and putting Him above all else a work? I can see where some will say it is, that we have to always keep in mind to do so but I say that its not a 'work' if Christ is dwelling with you guiding your mind. Is not commiting adultry a work also, for some it may be but with Christ we have the ablity to not to so and even if we lust in our hearts never fear we now have Christs sacrifice to cover the penalty or the curse for that sin and we are not condemned for our sin. But if we continue in that sin we will be judged just like any nonbeliever who is still under the curse or the penalty of the law. The law does not forgive, it does not save, it points to our needs of structure and guideance from God though His laws. Let me ask you this, since we all will stand before the judgement seat of Christ what it is it that He uses to judge?

Why then are those that have Gods law and do Gods law concluded to be under sin since it is the same. Why are we all under sin whether or not we keep the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
Apr 17th 2009, 07:24 PM
Is not commiting adultry a work also, for some it may be but with Christ we have the ablity to not to so and even if we lust in our hearts never fear we now have Christs sacrifice to cover the penalty or the curse for that sin and we are not condemned for our sin. But if we continue in that sin we will be judged just like any nonbeliever who is still under the curse or the penalty of the law. The law does not forgive, it does not save, it points to our needs of structure and guideance from God though His laws. Let me ask you this, since we all will stand before the judgement seat of Christ what it is it that He uses to judge?

By His mercy according to His lovingkindness. Psalm 51

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 07:24 PM
Oneness is always essential. It is the only thing I know that will show any differences. Such as whether or not we honor/love our heavenly Father.
We are already in communion with each other in our humanity. However, not all of humanity is in communion with God.

Jesus said, "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God."John 5:44, also see Romans 2:29

Yes we are all share the flesh together in humanity until our bodily glorification dear sister. However, this is the limit of my communion with the unbeliever.

You say correctly concerning our communing with God, to which the unbeliever does not enjoy. However, they can fellowship with God. I know personaly that I did before my salvation. I was aware of God's presences and power, but I refused the communion.

Fellowship is like simply being in the room without the oneness of relationship with any other person in the room.

mizzdy
Apr 17th 2009, 07:27 PM
It's not a "what" to be obedient to but a "who". Recall the man that came to Jesus and said he kept all the laws then asked Jesus what else was necessary. In essence, Jesus replied for the man to leave all and follow Him.
The man was unable to do that, although he was capable of following all the written "rules".

Our obedience is in our faith, not in rules. Jesus is The Ruler, not a set of rules. He calls us to a higher standard. Even Jesus said that Moses suffered them doing things, like divorce, which Jesus apparently disagrees with.

But His point was that there is a higher understanding, which can only be attained by faith. So His lesson to the man who kept all the law was that he had to leave it all behind and walk by faith in following Jesus.

There is plenty of proof in scripture that the laws from Sinai only made people self righteous in a complacent sort of way. IOW they sought to cut themselves out of a pattern given by the laws from Sinai.

Really the contrast is seen in the prophets. Show me the scriptures where all the prophets are "keeping the law". They did not need "the law" to know to withdraw from worldly carnal thinking. They physically did so by their faith. Their guidance and obedience lay with God alone. God called them, "law" did not call them. Nor were their messages on the observance of written laws.

Yes its a who, sorry my mind and eyesight sometimes just doesn't meet when I am writing and reading. What the Israelites did is what they did I am here now and like to follow for myself what God tells me to do. And I am fully aware of what they did and didn't do. God's laws are now written in our hearts as Christ came and gave us all a better way of following Him. Yet I see all through scriptures where the prophets followed God's laws just as we are to do, through faith. I really want to know how we are to keep laws, aren't we to follow them, live them through Christ in faith? You said that Christ is the ruler, wouldn't you say He rules our heart then? And what is it that He uses to rule us by? in order to rule one has to have a set of rules to do so by. God did use the prophest to warn Judah and Israel to turn from their sins, 2 Kings 17 and in 1 Sam. 9 we see Saul going to Samuel for answers, so it seems that people were going to the prophets to find answers to laws and such. And what were the prophets role but to give God's word and if they were indeed true prophets of God they would have been faithful and true to God's laws.

Teke
Apr 17th 2009, 07:52 PM
Yes we are all share the flesh together in humanity until our bodily glorification dear sister. However, this is the limit of my communion with the unbeliever.

You say correctly concerning our communing with God, to which the unbeliever does not enjoy. However, they can fellowship with God. I know personaly that I did before my salvation. I was aware of God's presences and power, but I refused the communion.

Fellowship is like simply being in the room without the oneness of relationship with any other person in the room.

Refusing that communion is as refusing the love of God. In John 5:42 Jesus is aware that those He is speaking with do not possess the love of God: it does not remain in them because they do not receive Him who comes in the name of the Father.

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 07:59 PM
Refusing that communion is as refusing the love of God. In John 5:42 Jesus is aware that those He is speaking with do not possess the love of God: it does not remain in them because they do not receive Him who comes in the name of the Father.

So true, from personal experience. I wanted to change my life so many times when I was in my late teens, but I could not until I finally gave myself to Jesus at twenty. He began to change me after communion between he and I became a reality. I can recall all of my religious experiences and thoughts prior to the relationship and remember thinking I wanted God one minute and rejecting him the next minute as my lust went back and forth.

Teke
Apr 17th 2009, 08:06 PM
Yes its a who, sorry my mind and eyesight sometimes just doesn't meet when I am writing and reading. What the Israelites did is what they did I am here now and like to follow for myself what God tells me to do. And I am fully aware of what they did and didn't do. God's laws are now written in our hearts as Christ came and gave us all a better way of following Him. Yet I see all through scriptures where the prophets followed God's laws just as we are to do, through faith. I really want to know how we are to keep laws, aren't we to follow them, live them through Christ in faith? You said that Christ is the ruler, wouldn't you say He rules our heart then? And what is it that He uses to rule us by? in order to rule one has to have a set of rules to do so by. God did use the prophest to warn Judah and Israel to turn from their sins, 2 Kings 17 and in 1 Sam. 9 we see Saul going to Samuel for answers, so it seems that people were going to the prophets to find answers to laws and such. And what were the prophets role but to give God's word and if they were indeed true prophets of God they would have been faithful and true to God's laws.

His rule is of mercy and love.

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
And He has laid it down for us, clearly (by the Incarnation). :saint:

mizzdy
Apr 17th 2009, 09:05 PM
Why then are those that have Gods law and do Gods law concluded to be under sin since it is the same. Why are we all under sin whether or not we keep the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

The difference is that we are no longer under the curse or penalty of those sins we commit. Christ paid my debt of sin, doesn't say I don't sin because we all do, don't we? The curse is decreed by the law but its not the law itself, the penalty is for those who do not keep the law, "Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them" Due. 27:26. This is a point of the new covenant, we have Christ who took that curse upon Himself for us by being hung on that cross.

mizzdy
Apr 17th 2009, 09:17 PM
By His mercy according to His lovingkindness. Psalm 51

I earnestly pray He does show me mercy! Mercy is an attribute of God to be sure and it is the foundation of God's eternal forgiveness and it is a gift from God Himself. Yet mercy from what? sin? God showed mercy on the Israelites when He gave them manna, its an action from God. What actions do we do which we need mercy from God but our sins. When David was asking for mercy he wanted God to blot out his transgressions and cleanse him from his sins, sin is the transgression of God's laws. David asked for a clean or new heart, we have that with Christ and the new covenant and when we confess our sins we are forgiven. But what after all are we asking forgiveness from if not the transgression of God's law?

Teke
Apr 17th 2009, 09:51 PM
When David was asking for mercy he wanted God to blot out his transgressions and cleanse him from his sins, sin is the transgression of God's laws. David asked for a clean or new heart, we have that with Christ and the new covenant and when we confess our sins we are forgiven. But what after all are we asking forgiveness from if not the transgression of God's law?

Transgression is a sin of/in ignorance (it's not about laws, it's about love). The first sin (or original sin), was a transgression. God forgives transgressions, but not necessarily intentional sins in which we commit with full knowledge. We usually know what we did and know when we are punished.

Psa 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we [are] dust.

Psa 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD [is] from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Paul says he was a chief sinner in 1 Timothy. And because he was ignorant of his sin (he thought what he did, in persecuting others, was absolutely righteous according to his view of the law), he obtained mercy.
He writes,
1Ti 1:16 However for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

We are way bigger sinners than we think we are. Thank God for His mercy as we stumble in our ignorance (our weak fallen state, which makes Him stronger).

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2009, 12:48 PM
The difference is that we are no longer under the curse or penalty of those sins we commit. Christ paid my debt of sin, doesn't say I don't sin because we all do, don't we? The curse is decreed by the law but its not the law itself, the penalty is for those who do not keep the law, "Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them" Due. 27:26. This is a point of the new covenant, we have Christ who took that curse upon Himself for us by being hung on that cross.

This applies whether or not we have the law but have accepted Christ. Without Christ we are all under sin. Those that have the law even if they keep the law 100% they are still under sin.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 19th 2009, 02:35 PM
This applies whether or not we have the law but have accepted Christ. Without Christ we are all under sin. Those that have the law even if they keep the law 100% they are still under sin.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

We can continue to disagree, but let us stay in love with one another first after establishing loeve dear brother.

We both should continue to defend our convictions.

I will continue to defend the promises and visions God has granted me to know and live. If I live my walk of trust towards God within aspects of the Torah and the same time enjoying freedom, then praise God.

And if you do the same without any infusion of Torah in your life, then praise God.

Our walks and paths of trust are different.

Niether one of us can take our personal experiences and insights from one another. It will be all good. We are both walking towards the kingdom with different callings....................

Firstfruits
Apr 19th 2009, 05:46 PM
We can continue to disagree, but let us stay in love with one another first after establishing loeve dear brother.

We both should continue to defend our convictions.

I will continue to defend the promises and visions God has granted me to know and live. If I live my walk of trust towards God within aspects of the Torah and the same time enjoying freedom, then praise God.

And if you do the same without any infusion of Torah in your life, then praise God.

Our walks and paths of trust are different.

Niether one of us can take our personal experiences and insights from one another. It will be all good. We are both walking towards the kingdom with different callings....................

Dear Brother,

It is God that has said that whether we have the law (Jews) or we do not have the law (Gentiles) we are under sin. God has made there be no difference between us. So are we trusting God according to what God has declared?

Rom 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Gal 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

There is no profit for those that keep the law over those that do not keep the law.

Rom 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Rom 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

This does not mean we do not trust believe what is written in the Torah, in fact it is through the Torah that God promised that it would be by faith that we would be saved by believing on his son Jesus. It is the Torah that tells us that he would make a new covenant with Israel, Jesus is the author of that covenant, that covenant is that we shall be saved by faith.

So if it came down to accepting the Torah, the Torah is how we know that because of disobedience we are all under sin.

God bless You!

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 19th 2009, 06:45 PM
There is no profit for those that keep the law over those that do not keep the law.So then either there is no profit in loving God with all our heart soul mind and strength, or you are perhaps not understanding what Paul is saying here. Which is it, do you think?

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2009, 03:41 PM
So then either there is no profit in loving God with all our heart soul mind and strength, or you are perhaps not understanding what Paul is saying here. Which is it, do you think?

When we come to God through faith in Jesus and love as we have been commanded, this is what is profitable. We are made whole in Christ. if Christ is in us then God is in us we cannot love Christ without loving God.

If whether we keep the law or not we are all under sin then no matter how we try to show God that we love him through the law we will still be under sin. There is only one way to show our love for God and that is by faith in his son Jesus Christ. If we could gain favour through the law then God would not have said that we were all under sin, righteousness would be by the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 20th 2009, 03:46 PM
Do yoou love Him your way, in your image, or His way?

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2009, 03:48 PM
Do yoou love Him your way, in your image, or His way?

Definately His way!!!!!

1 Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

1 Jn 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

1 Jn 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


Firstfruits

Teke
Apr 20th 2009, 07:06 PM
So then either there is no profit in loving God with all our heart soul mind and strength, or you are perhaps not understanding what Paul is saying here. Which is it, do you think?

Surely you don't believe that Paul is going against what was decided at the Jeursalem council (Acts 15:6...). In Acts 15 Peter clearly speaks and says that the "yoke" (referring to the Mosaic law) is unbearable. That neither them nor their 'fathers' where able to bear it (Acts 15:10).

In Acts Peter makes his case for the Holy Spirit. Nothing except the Holy Spirit will bring about our sanctification before God. Only hearts purified by God are acceptable to God.

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