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manichunter
Apr 11th 2009, 03:28 PM
Why do people who do not understand Torah and its relationship to christians believers automatically spill these same statements on auto-pilot about some of the believers who live free in Torah, and not legalistic. "Learned and Traditional Religious Assumptions"

They say things like a christian cannot have both Torah and grace. A person who follows Torah is made a slave to it. And etc. I say things are not true, but I cannot prove it to any one, other than the Holy Spirit bearing witness. But................

Why can't I enjoy the same grace as any other believer and yet live free in God's instructions meant for my prosperity, good, health, and joy.
Why can't I be like David and delight in it?

It is not like I do not understand why, but you do not understand the mystery David confessed to.

Why do you think I am proving myself righteous by keeping the torah? My righteousness is in Christ just as you, and my own remains fithy rags. However, I am required to be holy, and this is by being a doer of His word we are required to live by. According to Jesus, this means every word that came from the mouth of God.
Why can't I be like Paul who was blameless in regards to it even after he was saved?

Some Believers who observe and celebrate Torah are not carried away with legalism. I know enough Christians who are bound by man made ordinances just the same. I am not bound, trapped, or limited in freedom by Torah. I say this by experience not just knowledge. And how would another know Torah is good if they lack the personal revelation of what it is to them, and more importantly a personal experience with Torah. You can't.

I merely have come to the personal revelation of what Torah means for me and how it is applicable to me in regards to my personal relationship with Jesus. If Torah does not mean anything to you, then it is not my place to critize, reject, or condemn you as my brother. We do not have all things in common yet.

Jesus earned my righteousness, but this does not make me holy.
Jesus supplies my grace, but this does not make me obediant.
Jesus manifested His love to me, but this does not show me how to love.

We can all go in circles in these endless debates about the merits of God's Torah. However, the bottom line is this in regards to our religion. It is a personal thing. What God has taught you, is what is required of you. What God has taught me, is required of me. What God has manifested to you, is also required of you as well as myself. Moreover, we are to share the goodness and goodnews God has personally revealed to each one of us. That is the chief purpose for my threads, love for you. Not to prove myself, smart, more religious, and righteous. To see a need and try to fulfill it is my heart's desire.

Be reminded, my personal walk with Jesus doctrinally is not different from Scriptural Christian other than the proper incorporation of God's Torah AKA God's instruction for holy living.

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, to include live free in both His grace supplied to me and His Torah taught to me.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 11th 2009, 03:38 PM
By "torah" do you mean the ceremonial laws, or the entirety of the Old Testament?

embankmentlb
Apr 11th 2009, 03:46 PM
Yes, religion is a very personal thing. I personally believe a person has the right to believe in anything he or she chooses. People can believe in Santa Clause, The Easter Bunny or whatever gets them through the day. People can interpret the Bible any way they wish. People can ignore passages they don't like or the entire NT. I am kool with that!

I don't believe people can join "Bible Chat" & present error or simply opinion that is not "Bible" based & expect that people will just look the other way.
Isn't the reason we are here to come to a better understanding of the complete scripture?

Maybe we should start a "Torah Chat" forum that just ignores the new testament completely.
Or,
"My Bible Fantasy" forum Or "What i wish were in the Bible" forum.

Sound good? What do you think?

Brother Mark
Apr 11th 2009, 03:55 PM
Why can't we fellowship around Jesus and delight in Him instead of pushing our pet doctrine? The answer to my question is the same as the answer to your question. Because people are people.

Mograce2U
Apr 11th 2009, 03:57 PM
Hi Manichunter,
I think the objection which comes concerns the idea that the flesh can be made holy so that we can stand in God's presence. For this was the purpose of the law which was given to Moses - for the sanctification of the people. It was law for this life only so that death could be stayed when they came into His presence.

But even the Sabbath was given as a sign that it is God who sanctifies us. Therefore the keeping of the day is not what is required for holiness for us to stand before Him. Nor are any of the other dozen things the Torah-keeper thinks he must do to please God.

Faith and trusting in Him for this work of sanctification is what pleases Him. And it is not the defilement of the flesh that separates us from Him so that our prayers are not heard. It is the defilement of the spirit which must be kept cleansed. The inner man who is created in holiness is whom the washing of the water of the word keeps clean. Because it is in the spirit we have our connection to Him. God is not looking at our flesh at all, because He sees right into our heart.

Therefore the rituals and cermonies which men do to make themselves appear religious is merely a ruse to be seen by other men. Our shawls, head coverings, candles & incense and the keeping of sabbaths and feast days - is all an exercise in futility if the heart is not right with God. Nor does doing these things gain us anything for His blessing. Our Sabbath rest in Him is not found in the keeping of one day a week, but in our abiding in faith in Christ 24/7.

Therefore how we treat one another is where the evidence is found as to whether we love God or not. And that has little to do with these religious trappings men enjoy doing which only concern the flesh. It is not a better from of religion we need to find, rather we must learn how to lay hold upon faith in Christ and move according to how the Spirit leads. All of which things are spiritual in nature and not enhanced by the things given to Moses - but the things above which we have in Christ.

Micah 6:8
He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

For if we do these things we will find that there is no law given that is against them and this is what we have been set free to do.

Blessings,

ps - Why was it that the Jews required a sign? Because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given in Moses' day.

manichunter
Apr 11th 2009, 04:07 PM
Why can't we fellowship around Jesus and delight in Him instead of pushing our pet doctrine? The answer to my question is the same as the answer to your question. Because people are people.


You mean carnality escapes and controls us at time. :cry: This is true, saints do give in to carnality unaware most of the time with the same effect.

manichunter
Apr 11th 2009, 04:12 PM
By "torah" do you mean the ceremonial laws, or the entirety of the Old Testament?


Man broke down the Torah into various sections and labels, this is not from Scripture or God. What is labeled as the ceremonial law is nothing more than how we are to appraoch God in regards to worship within his sanctuaries. It dictates and reveals our attitude.

We are still called to be living sacrifices. A understanding of the offering system would lead to a better application of worshipping and servicing of God and others. Paul related to himself being poured out as a drink offering twice, which is a meat offering. He was being more than symbolic, but actual and objective..

I am talking about all Scripture, anything spoken by God to man for our individual profit.

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 03:57 AM
How I rely on Torah..........?

I am relying on the Torah, not simply as a legal code of laws as to how to treat others, but as a moral, civil, and religious collection of instructions to give me a guide post and standard to aim my conduct and attitude at.

It is how I love God the way He wants to be loved. His desires set up a system for me to manifest my love towards Him that are according to His ways and not my own.

It also sets up an honor system that allows me to respect God in worship and service towards Him and others. It sets up boundaries for my attitude and prospective. He is the way, the truth, and the light. Therefore I abide and rely on the truths He provided in His judgments and commandments.

I rely on the Torah also so that it can add to me is, I endeavor to be taught and understand the spiritual principles that hide behind the letter of the Torah. Those things that make the OT more than a collection of stories and good examples, but the means of spiritual application for a foundation, that gets built upon and escalated in the NT.

It is God, like a spouse saying, this is how you show love towards me, not what you think best, but what I think best. Don't give me a gift that you know I will not want, but the one that will honor and consider my heart and mind.

Then God gives a bonus. He says, "I will show you how I love you by adding blessings to theses instructions." Ex. If you pay the tithe with a clean heart, then you show that you love me, and I will rebuke the devourer on your behalf because you are giving witness of your love and respect towards me by honoring the standard I set up.

He is the governor and the government of His own kingdom to which I am just a citizen. It is the same standard and system we live under and with everyday albeit a family or a nation, but at a secular and lower fashion. why do I our carnal man find it so hard to suffer the Torah. Is it because it cannot submit to or understand the Torah of God.

crossnote
Apr 13th 2009, 05:17 AM
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(Gal 2:20-21)

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(Php 3:8-9)

This (desired) righteousness is ongoing in our daily lives not just at conversion.

RabbiKnife
Apr 13th 2009, 01:06 PM
I still don't understand how someone can say they live by Torah in the absence of a Levitical priesthood and actual blood sacrifices. To me, this is "picking and choosing" which parts of Torah we decided to follow, the same accusation that is made against those of us who believe that the law, both moral and ceremonial and civil, is fulfilled and of no more effect in Christ.

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2009, 01:35 PM
Why do people who do not understand Torah and its relationship to christians believers automatically spill these same statements on auto-pilot about some of the believers who live free in Torah, and not legalistic. "Learned and Traditional Religious Assumptions"

They say things like a christian cannot have both Torah and grace. A person who follows Torah is made a slave to it. And etc. I say things are not true, but I cannot prove it to any one, other than the Holy Spirit bearing witness. But................

Why can't I enjoy the same grace as any other believer and yet live free in God's instructions meant for my prosperity, good, health, and joy.
Why can't I be like David and delight in it?

It is not like I do not understand why, but you do not understand the mystery David confessed to.

Why do you think I am proving myself righteous by keeping the torah? My righteousness is in Christ just as you, and my own remains fithy rags. However, I am required to be holy, and this is by being a doer of His word we are required to live by. According to Jesus, this means every word that came from the mouth of God.
Why can't I be like Paul who was blameless in regards to it even after he was saved?

Some Believers who observe and celebrate Torah are not carried away with legalism. I know enough Christians who are bound by man made ordinances just the same. I am not bound, trapped, or limited in freedom by Torah. I say this by experience not just knowledge. And how would another know Torah is good if they lack the personal revelation of what it is to them, and more importantly a personal experience with Torah. You can't.

I merely have come to the personal revelation of what Torah means for me and how it is applicable to me in regards to my personal relationship with Jesus. If Torah does not mean anything to you, then it is not my place to critize, reject, or condemn you as my brother. We do not have all things in common yet.

Jesus earned my righteousness, but this does not make me holy.
Jesus supplies my grace, but this does not make me obediant.
Jesus manifested His love to me, but this does not show me how to love.

We can all go in circles in these endless debates about the merits of God's Torah. However, the bottom line is this in regards to our religion. It is a personal thing. What God has taught you, is what is required of you. What God has taught me, is required of me. What God has manifested to you, is also required of you as well as myself. Moreover, we are to share the goodness and goodnews God has personally revealed to each one of us. That is the chief purpose for my threads, love for you. Not to prove myself, smart, more religious, and righteous. To see a need and try to fulfill it is my heart's desire.

Be reminded, my personal walk with Jesus doctrinally is not different from Scriptural Christian other than the proper incorporation of God's Torah AKA God's instruction for holy living.

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, to include live free in both His grace supplied to me and His Torah taught to me.

Whether or not we have the Torah God says we are all under sin. As long as we have faith in Christ as God has commanded and love one another as God has commanded we have done the will of God. There is nothing lacking in doing so.

Having the Torah makes us no better than those that do not have it.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 02:50 PM
Whether or not we have the Torah God says we are all under sin. As long as we have faith in Christ as God has commanded and love one another as God has commanded we have done the will of God. There is nothing lacking in doing so.

Having the Torah makes us no better than those that do not have it.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I have never said it makes anyone better at all kind sir.

It does not make me justified by works.

It does not earn me salvation.

It does not earn me righteousness.

So, then what is the benefit............that is the mystery. The benefits are found right besides the same words in the Torah. How do I maintain my legal freedom within the Torah. Easy, do not fall for the deceptive trap of legalism, self-righteousness, or ego driven religion. I know a lot of saints have done the same thing without observing any form of the Torah, because this one of the weaknesses of carnally. They have become legalistic and self-righteous in their particular doctrines and dogmas absent of divine scriptural torah. I know you know a few as well, right.

The words that you type manifest your doctrinal beliefs from your thoughts and convictions. These doctrinal beliefs establish a pattern of behaviour and principles for you. This inturn manipulate and influence your actions. Hence, they are a torah of your own making or agents of a particular religious sect you belong to. The bottom line, we cannot escape the boundaries and reality that torahs exist in and about our lives. Even when we choose to give them other names and titles such as doctrine, dogma, by laws, penal code, health code, or constitution.

I have three questions for you:
Do you still commit sin?
Do you not reap what you sow?
If you do reap bad consequences after you transgress. why?

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 03:50 PM
I still don't understand how someone can say they live by Torah in the absence of a Levitical priesthood and actual blood sacrifices. To me, this is "picking and choosing" which parts of Torah we decided to follow, the same accusation that is made against those of us who believe that the law, both moral and ceremonial and civil, is fulfilled and of no more effect in Christ.

I will show Torah in the NT

Here is goes.........let the dice fall.......

The Torah gives details of blessing and curses depending on how we conduct ourselves. I gave an OT example regarding the paying of tithes earlier. God said He will rebuke the devourer on our behalf if we pay what is owed with a sincere and clean heart.

NT example of Torah- We are told to not be yoked with unbelievers. There are negative consequences for doing so.

Torah basically means instructions, not laws as it is often mistranslated as. It can be translated as such, but that narrows the scope and understanding of what it really is. It is God intimately giving man a view of His ways and a standard for relating and loving Him and others.

Torah is composed of several subsections called commandments, religious ordinances, legal judgments, and testimonies.

I will give a brief NT examples of each.

Commandment- we are told to still honor our parents and not to bear false witness.

Religious ordinances- We are told to present ourselves as a living sacrifice, Paul said he was a drinking offering on behalf of others (a part of the meat offering).

Judgment- We are told to obey the laws of the land and those that have rule over us as unto the Lord.

Testimonies- We are told to not be unevenly yoked with unbelievers to our own detriment if we ignore this testiment.

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 04:15 PM
manichunter -

Our response to God is relative to our willingness to obey Him.

There's nothing more to it.

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 05:23 PM
manichunter -

Our response to God is relative to our willingness to obey Him.

There's nothing more to it.

Can you elaborate a little more kind sir.........

keck553
Apr 13th 2009, 06:20 PM
Can you elaborate a little more kind sir.........

Would God give us a revealtion before we are able to receive it? In other words, how does God write His Torah on our hearts? What is the process?

manichunter
Apr 13th 2009, 07:22 PM
Would God give us a revealtion before we are able to receive it? In other words, how does God write His Torah on our hearts? What is the process?

Roger that and Copy, thank you sir, so true, thank God for sanctification, roger out.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 14th 2009, 12:18 AM
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We work out what God works in.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

manichunter
Apr 14th 2009, 02:19 AM
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We work out what God works in.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

letter kills carnality, and the Spirit give life to our spirit

manichunter
Apr 15th 2009, 02:09 PM
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We work out what God works in.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Has the Spirit always given life. Albeit breathing into Adam for the first time. Then Adam chose to disobey the spoken commandment.

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2009, 03:45 PM
Would God give us a revealtion before we are able to receive it? In other words, how does God write His Torah on our hearts? What is the process?

The following tells us that it is Christ that is ministered and in our hearts;

2 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

What therefore are you saying is the Torah that is in your hearts?

Were they teaching the Gospel or teaching the law other than what was written concerning Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BroRog
Apr 16th 2009, 12:03 AM
Why do people who do not understand Torah and its relationship to christians believers automatically spill these same statements on auto-pilot about some of the believers who live free in Torah, and not legalistic. "Learned and Traditional Religious Assumptions"

They say things like a christian cannot have both Torah and grace. A person who follows Torah is made a slave to it. And etc. I say things are not true, but I cannot prove it to any one, other than the Holy Spirit bearing witness. But................

Why can't I enjoy the same grace as any other believer and yet live free in God's instructions meant for my prosperity, good, health, and joy.
Why can't I be like David and delight in it?

It is not like I do not understand why, but you do not understand the mystery David confessed to.

Why do you think I am proving myself righteous by keeping the torah? My righteousness is in Christ just as you, and my own remains fithy rags. However, I am required to be holy, and this is by being a doer of His word we are required to live by. According to Jesus, this means every word that came from the mouth of God.
Why can't I be like Paul who was blameless in regards to it even after he was saved?

Some Believers who observe and celebrate Torah are not carried away with legalism. I know enough Christians who are bound by man made ordinances just the same. I am not bound, trapped, or limited in freedom by Torah. I say this by experience not just knowledge. And how would another know Torah is good if they lack the personal revelation of what it is to them, and more importantly a personal experience with Torah. You can't.

I merely have come to the personal revelation of what Torah means for me and how it is applicable to me in regards to my personal relationship with Jesus. If Torah does not mean anything to you, then it is not my place to critize, reject, or condemn you as my brother. We do not have all things in common yet.

Jesus earned my righteousness, but this does not make me holy.
Jesus supplies my grace, but this does not make me obediant.
Jesus manifested His love to me, but this does not show me how to love.

We can all go in circles in these endless debates about the merits of God's Torah. However, the bottom line is this in regards to our religion. It is a personal thing. What God has taught you, is what is required of you. What God has taught me, is required of me. What God has manifested to you, is also required of you as well as myself. Moreover, we are to share the goodness and goodnews God has personally revealed to each one of us. That is the chief purpose for my threads, love for you. Not to prove myself, smart, more religious, and righteous. To see a need and try to fulfill it is my heart's desire.

Be reminded, my personal walk with Jesus doctrinally is not different from Scriptural Christian other than the proper incorporation of God's Torah AKA God's instruction for holy living.

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, to include live free in both His grace supplied to me and His Torah taught to me.


I've been giving your post some thought and I understand what you are saying. But I wonder if our "religion" really is a personal thing. Or perhaps it is a personal thing but it appears to be a communal thing too. Isn't it?

Paul seems to imply this when he talks about those in Christ has having, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one Spirit, etc. That is, as Christians, we have certain things we share in common with each other. Christianity is as much a communal experience as it is a solitary experience and we live in that tension all the time.

But I wonder, as I read this post, whether I can honestly say that keeping the Torah is supposed to be one of those things we all share in common. Is it? I mean, I totally understand and respect your wish to keep God's instructions as a personal expression of your "religion" as you put it. And I'm not knocking it. But when you say that you are keeping God's instructions to "us", this puts me in the position of asking myself if I can honestly include myself in the "us". What are the implications of your appeal to the group that we understand your wish to keep the instructions God gave to "us", for someone like me who isn't ready to go where you are?

Are you saying that since I don't keep God's instructions as you do, that I should doubt the reality of our fellowship in Christ? That is, do you consider someone like me to be a brother in Christ if I don't obey the Torah? Or do you think that I am some how deficient in my walk?

manichunter
Apr 16th 2009, 06:27 AM
I've been giving your post some thought and I understand what you are saying. But I wonder if our "religion" really is a personal thing. Or perhaps it is a personal thing but it appears to be a communal thing too. Isn't it?

Paul seems to imply this when he talks about those in Christ has having, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one Spirit, etc. That is, as Christians, we have certain things we share in common with each other. Christianity is as much a communal experience as it is a solitary experience and we live in that tension all the time.

But I wonder, as I read this post, whether I can honestly say that keeping the Torah is supposed to be one of those things we all share in common. Is it? I mean, I totally understand and respect your wish to keep God's instructions as a personal expression of your "religion" as you put it. And I'm not knocking it. But when you say that you are keeping God's instructions to "us", this puts me in the position of asking myself if I can honestly include myself in the "us". What are the implications of your appeal to the group that we understand your wish to keep the instructions God gave to "us", for someone like me who isn't ready to go where you are?

Are you saying that since I don't keep God's instructions as you do, that I should doubt the reality of our fellowship in Christ? That is, do you consider someone like me to be a brother in Christ if I don't obey the Torah? Or do you think that I am some how deficient in my walk?

You are indeed and very much my brother in the same Lord, faith, and body. Our experiences, callings, and knowledge might be different, but that is okay, because we are not all destined for the same purposes.

You are by no way deficient either. It is to your God that you either stand or fall. I have no say so to condemn you in any capacity to include your obediance towards God.

It is good you are thinking however, something we both need to do is keep meditating in the Lord.

Thanks for the response, having seen you in a long time. Are you doing fine............ I just counting down the omer........ til Pentecost.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2009, 09:45 AM
You are indeed and very much my brother in the same Lord, faith, and body. Our experiences, callings, and knowledge might be different, but that is okay, because we are not all destined for the same purposes.

You are by no way deficient either. It is to your God that you either stand or fall. I have no say so to condemn you in any capacity to include your obediance towards God.

It is good you are thinking however, something we both need to do is keep meditating in the Lord.

Thanks for the response, having seen you in a long time. Are you doing fine............ I just counting down the omer........ til Pentecost.

With regards to what you say in the following;

Why do you think I am proving myself righteous by keeping the torah? My righteousness is in Christ just as you, and my own remains fithy rags. However, I am required to be holy, and this is by being a doer of His word we are required to live by. According to Jesus, this means every word that came from the mouth of God.

If we are required to live by every word that came from the mouth of God and we do not live accordingly, are we or are we not being disobedient?

Remember, it was because those that had the law were not doing as they should that God declared that no one was righteoues because a partial law meant that they were guilty of all.

Unless you can keep that same law 100% then that is still the same. There is none that doeth good, we are still unclean.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2009, 11:29 AM
I do not recall if you answered my question as to why God has declared that we are all under son whether or not we are Jew or Gentile, why do you think he did so?

Thanks Manichunter,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

dan
Apr 16th 2009, 12:07 PM
Whether or not we have the Torah God says we are all under sin. As long as we have faith in Christ as God has commanded and love one another as God has commanded we have done the will of God. There is nothing lacking in doing so.

Having the Torah makes us no better than those that do not have it.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Do 618 laws easily convert to two?

Or, not knowing the law, can you assume that you can obey that which is necessary by taking "Love God, and love thy neighbor as thyself", to heart?

Or, how about, without knowing the loving kindness, patience, and persistence of God towards His People, can you bring yourself to love God with all your mind, heart and strength?

I think Paul was right:

2TIM 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2TIM 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And God was right to put the OT and NT in the same book.;)

manichunter
Apr 16th 2009, 12:09 PM
I do not recall if you answered my question as to why God has declared that we are all under son whether or not we are Jew or Gentile, why do you think he did so?

Thanks Manichunter,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Because we are now one sheepfold within the same spiritual kingdom, who is the King of Kings.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2009, 01:37 PM
Do 618 laws easily convert to two?

Or, not knowing the law, can you assume that you can obey that which is necessary by taking "Love God, and love thy neighbor as thyself", to heart?

Or, how about, without knowing the loving kindness, patience, and persistence of God towards His People, can you bring yourself to love God with all your mind, heart and strength?

I think Paul was right:

2TIM 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2TIM 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And God was right to put the OT and NT in the same book.;)

It does not matter whether or not you have the law becuase those that have it are the same as those that do not have it. Even if you could keep all that was written in the law it would not change your status with God you would stillbe guilty of sin just as though you never had it in the first place. There is a reason for that, but do you know what it is?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2009, 01:39 PM
Because we are now one sheepfold within the same spiritual kingdom, who is the King of Kings.

Thanks Manichunter,

That is not the answer, according to the scriptures. What you have said is a result of what the answer is. It is written.

Firstfruits

dan
Apr 16th 2009, 02:05 PM
It does not matter whether or not you have the law becuase those that have it are the same as those that do not have it. Even if you could keep all that was written in the law it would not change your status with God you would stillbe guilty of sin just as though you never had it in the first place. There is a reason for that, but do you know what it is?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I believe it would be because I was born flawed.

But, my point is, that logically, a man could look at the OT and be motivated to choose God, and subsequently, Christ.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2009, 02:30 PM
I believe it would be because I was born flawed.

But, my point is, that logically, a man could look at the OT and be motivated to choose God, and subsequently, Christ.

Thanks Dan,

Still not the answer though!!!

I assure you it is written, and not too far either.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BroRog
Apr 16th 2009, 02:38 PM
You are indeed and very much my brother in the same Lord, faith, and body. Our experiences, callings, and knowledge might be different, but that is okay, because we are not all destined for the same purposes.

You are by no way deficient either. It is to your God that you either stand or fall. I have no say so to condemn you in any capacity to include your obediance towards God.

It is good you are thinking however, something we both need to do is keep meditating in the Lord.

Thanks for the response, having seen you in a long time. Are you doing fine............ I just counting down the omer........ til Pentecost.

Right now, I'm not making enough money to stay in business, living off credit cards. I haven't closed the doors for two reasons, 1) we are trusting the Lord, 2) we have a very good relationship with customers and we are all trying to survive until things turn around.

Shalom.

dan
Apr 16th 2009, 02:53 PM
Thanks Dan,

Still not the answer though!!!

I assure you it is written, and not too far either.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

...Play games. Give a brother the benefit of your knowledge.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2009, 03:21 PM
...Play games. Give a brother the benefit of your knowledge.

Okay then here is the answer.

Rom 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom 11:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is according to Gods covenant.

If it was though the law then Gods mercy would not be for all, only for those that had his law, righteousness could not be imputed to Gentiles.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 16th 2009, 09:25 PM
Right now, I'm not making enough money to stay in business, living off credit cards. I haven't closed the doors for two reasons, 1) we are trusting the Lord, 2) we have a very good relationship with customers and we are all trying to survive until things turn around.

Shalom.

My right now prayer and petition for you is that it more than work out for your good, but be a blessing to your customers for their spiritual prosperity as well.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 16th 2009, 09:58 PM
Right now, I'm not making enough money to stay in business, living off credit cards. I haven't closed the doors for two reasons, 1) we are trusting the Lord, 2) we have a very good relationship with customers and we are all trying to survive until things turn around.

Shalom.

Hi BroRog!

I will be praying for you.

I was in the same boat 3.4 years ago. I nearly lost everything including my home. My wife knew nothing about it. I never told her how bad thing were, because she was suffering with a sever mental breakdown.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

I was broken before the Lord.

In hindsight, I realised I had left Christ out of my business. He was outside the door knocking, but I built the business in my own strength.

Since that day, I have lived day by day looking to Him to provide.
Things are slowly improving, but He has provided every penny I have ever needed, at the time I have needed it.

dan
Apr 17th 2009, 02:13 PM
If it was though the law then Gods mercy would not be for all, only for those that had his law, righteousness could not be imputed to Gentiles.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

...Your point. However, I still believe that being able to see the Law and the history of God's Involvement with His People is inspirational to the susceptible.

It was, and continues to be, for me.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2009, 03:12 PM
...Your point. However, I still believe that being able to see the Law and the history of God's Involvement with His People is inspirational to the susceptible.

It was, and continues to be, for me.

With regards to those that have the law this is what is written:

Rom 4:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 03:20 PM
With regards to those that have the law this is what is written:

Rom 4:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

God bless you!

Firstfruits


I am glad am not one of those people. LOL

I am of the promise just like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who live Torah by love and trust.

I believe the same way about people trying to earn salvation by self-efforts from Torah by works, and not by trust.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2009, 03:26 PM
I am glad am not one of those people. LOL

I am of the promise just like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who live Torah by love and trust.

I believe the same way about people trying to earn salvation by self-efforts from Torah by works, and not by trust.

That is why God has made no difference between those that are of the law and those that are not. we are all under sin with only one way out.

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 03:45 PM
That is why God has made no difference between those that are of the law and those that are not. we are all under sin with only one way out.

Firstfruits

I see we can agree on something kind sir. You see we are not that far apart in belief and convictions. The only difference is how we live out our personal trust towards the same Lord according to knowledge.


He did make us one sheepfold. He took the lost gentile (believing gentiles) and made them one with the sheepfold of Israel (believing Israel, not the unbelieving).

Teke
Apr 17th 2009, 04:32 PM
I still don't understand how someone can say they live by Torah in the absence of a Levitical priesthood and actual blood sacrifices. To me, this is "picking and choosing" which parts of Torah we decided to follow, the same accusation that is made against those of us who believe that the law, both moral and ceremonial and civil, is fulfilled and of no more effect in Christ.

This is the heart of the matter. We don't get to pick and choose. God did away with the Levitical priesthood by setting up His own priesthood of which Jesus is High Priest. It's called the Christian Church.

Now the church, which is the bride of Christ, is our mother, as God is our Father. If we fail to follow the guidance of our mother and Father, we have broken one of the ten commandments, in failing to honor our mother and Father.

In America this is a big problem. Our cultures history, which includes the movement of 'feminism' (a subject sorely misunderstood), has had a very bad effect on Americans. Distorting their ability to recognize any authority but their own individual selves.

So while you or anyone else is at liberty in Christ to observe whatever you feel you need to observe, such observances do not negate the command to honor your mother and Father. Which means that they know what is best for you, not you by yourself. As Proverbs says,
Pro 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left [to himself] bringeth his mother to shame.

If you want to know about "moral, civil and ceremonial", you listen to your mother and Father. The child left to himself will only bring shame to his mother (the church).

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2009, 06:22 PM
I see we can agree on something kind sir. You see we are not that far apart in belief and convictions. The only difference is how we live out our personal trust towards the same Lord according to knowledge.


He did make us one sheepfold. He took the lost gentile (believing gentiles) and made them one with the sheepfold of Israel (believing Israel, not the unbelieving).

We are one body in Christ, however those that are not in the body of christ are also one, one in sin.

As far as God is concerned even by keeping the whole law 100% as did Paul, they that do so are still as guilty of sin as we all are until we come to Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 06:42 PM
We are one body in Christ, however those that are not in the body of christ are also one, one in sin.

As far as God is concerned even by keeping the whole law 100% as did Paul, they that do so are still as guilty of sin as we all are until we come to Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yes, I am guilty of a few today to include unconscious ones.

Paul sinned in Scripture, and he even showed fear and unforgiveness at times, so he was not perfect in all his way, but his determination for holiness and heart's effort love God was. As God says, acknowledge Him in all our ways, so He can direct our paths.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2009, 07:10 PM
Yes, I am guilty of a few today to include unconscious ones.

Paul sinned in Scripture, and he even showed fear and unforgiveness at times, so he was not perfect in all his way, but his determination for holiness and heart's effort love God was. As God says, acknowledge Him in all our ways, so He can direct our paths.

When you say you are guilty of sin are you saying that you have done that which causes ill to your neighbour?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 07:32 PM
When you say you are guilty of sin are you saying that you have done that which causes ill to your neighbour?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Nah, not yet as far as the neighbor is concern, my wife (oops).

So far, I can recall eating something I should have not eaten, being lazy earlier today when I was to be doing something, watching television in the A.M. before meditating (this happens alot when I wake up to early), I also told my wife a little white lie to avoid any tasking on her part (I did the am trying to sleep when see called, because she is always asking me a bunch of questions when I am off, like can you do this).

PS- I also littered with a paper wrapper. It fell and I did not think it was worth effort to retrieve as the wind took it away.

To him who know to do right, but don't, to him that is sin.

So, I have not cause grevious injury to others, more so myself.

PSS- you can keep a secret, or would that be causing you to sin........ don't tell my wife.

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 07:34 PM
When you say you are guilty of sin are you saying that you have done that which causes ill to your neighbour?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


When are you going to take a shot at the "What is Paul Reinforcing?" thread..........?

I would like to have your input.

dan
Apr 19th 2009, 11:17 AM
With regards to those that have the law this is what is written:

Rom 4:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

...Jesus gave you works to perform and some of them are from the Law!

MT 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

MK 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

ACTS 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
ACTS 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

1COR 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

1TIM 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

And will James The Apostle be disappointed at the Judgment Day?

JAS 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
JAS 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
JAS 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
JAS 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
JAS 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
JAS 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
JAS 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
JAS 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
JAS 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
JAS 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
JAS 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
JAS 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
JAS 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Firstfruits
Apr 19th 2009, 01:22 PM
Nah, not yet as far as the neighbor is concern, my wife (oops).

So far, I can recall eating something I should have not eaten, being lazy earlier today when I was to be doing something, watching television in the A.M. before meditating (this happens alot when I wake up to early), I also told my wife a little white lie to avoid any tasking on her part (I did the am trying to sleep when see called, because she is always asking me a bunch of questions when I am off, like can you do this).

PS- I also littered with a paper wrapper. It fell and I did not think it was worth effort to retrieve as the wind took it away.

To him who know to do right, but don't, to him that is sin.

So, I have not cause grevious injury to others, more so myself.

PSS- you can keep a secret, or would that be causing you to sin........ don't tell my wife.

With the understanding that the command is towards our neighbour then scriptually you have fulfilled the law of Christ. And dare I say it but that means you are perfect. :saint:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 19th 2009, 02:28 PM
With the understanding that the command is towards our neighbour then scriptually you have fulfilled the law of Christ. And dare I say it but that means you are perfect. :saint:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

It depends on how you define neighbor and if I can hurt my neighbor in directly. Plus whoever knows to do right, but does not, to him it is sin.

I am not perfect, but that does not mean that I do not try to give my all. I will never be perfect in character and attitude on this side of glorification, but I will give my all. This is what God requires of me.


I cannot wait for the Spirit to use me to heal the sick, raise the dead, and mend broken hearts. May he use you the same.

Firstfruits
Apr 19th 2009, 05:54 PM
It depends on how you define neighbor and if I can hurt my neighbor in directly. Plus whoever knows to do right, but does not, to him it is sin.

I am not perfect, but that does not mean that I do not try to give my all. I will never be perfect in character and attitude on this side of glorification, but I will give my all. This is what God requires of me.


I cannot wait for the Spirit to use me to heal the sick, raise the dead, and mend broken hearts. May he use you the same.

Well who therefore is thy neighbour?

Lk 10:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Remember the good Samaritan.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 20th 2009, 06:08 AM
Well who therefore is thy neighbour?

Lk 10:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Remember the good Samaritan.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yes I know. Anyone who is next to you beit in person or in contact with..............

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2009, 07:00 AM
Yes I know. Anyone who is next to you beit in person or in contact with..............

If you therefore apply the command as you know who your neighbour is then you have fullfilled the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 20th 2009, 04:48 PM
If you therefore apply the command as you know who your neighbour is then you have fullfilled the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

In general yes, not in specific no.........

one_lost_coin
Apr 20th 2009, 05:01 PM
Why do people who do not understand Torah and its relationship to christians believers automatically spill these same statements on auto-pilot about some of the believers who live free in Torah, and not legalistic. "Learned and Traditional Religious Assumptions"

They say things like a christian cannot have both Torah and grace. A person who follows Torah is made a slave to it. And etc. I say things are not true, but I cannot prove it to any one, other than the Holy Spirit bearing witness. But................

Why can't I enjoy the same grace as any other believer and yet live free in God's instructions meant for my prosperity, good, health, and joy.
Why can't I be like David and delight in it?

It is not like I do not understand why, but you do not understand the mystery David confessed to.

Why do you think I am proving myself righteous by keeping the torah? My righteousness is in Christ just as you, and my own remains fithy rags. However, I am required to be holy, and this is by being a doer of His word we are required to live by. According to Jesus, this means every word that came from the mouth of God.
Why can't I be like Paul who was blameless in regards to it even after he was saved?

Some Believers who observe and celebrate Torah are not carried away with legalism. I know enough Christians who are bound by man made ordinances just the same. I am not bound, trapped, or limited in freedom by Torah. I say this by experience not just knowledge. And how would another know Torah is good if they lack the personal revelation of what it is to them, and more importantly a personal experience with Torah. You can't.

I merely have come to the personal revelation of what Torah means for me and how it is applicable to me in regards to my personal relationship with Jesus. If Torah does not mean anything to you, then it is not my place to critize, reject, or condemn you as my brother. We do not have all things in common yet.

Jesus earned my righteousness, but this does not make me holy.
Jesus supplies my grace, but this does not make me obediant.
Jesus manifested His love to me, but this does not show me how to love.

We can all go in circles in these endless debates about the merits of God's Torah. However, the bottom line is this in regards to our religion. It is a personal thing. What God has taught you, is what is required of you. What God has taught me, is required of me. What God has manifested to you, is also required of you as well as myself. Moreover, we are to share the goodness and goodnews God has personally revealed to each one of us. That is the chief purpose for my threads, love for you. Not to prove myself, smart, more religious, and righteous. To see a need and try to fulfill it is my heart's desire.

Be reminded, my personal walk with Jesus doctrinally is not different from Scriptural Christian other than the proper incorporation of God's Torah AKA God's instruction for holy living.

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, to include live free in both His grace supplied to me and His Torah taught to me.


What?

Are you trying to make a point, ask a question or is this just a rant?

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2009, 06:34 PM
In general yes, not in specific no.........

With regards to the following is Christs commandment that is from God not specific enough?

Jn 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jn 14:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn 15:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Is it not specific and is it not generally for all?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BroRog
Apr 20th 2009, 06:52 PM
What?

Are you trying to make a point, ask a question or is this just a rant?

I believe Mani and the others are trying to sort out where they fit in the Body of Christ. There is no doubt that they fit into the body because they all believe in Jesus and love God. And out of their love for God they have adopted various practices taken from the OT out of love for God.

Mani, and perhaps the others, have noticed a certain negative resistance to their wish to live according to "Torah Instruction." As I understood it, Mani had opened up a dialog to get feed back from us.

manichunter, if I have misrepresented you initial question, please correct me.

manichunter
Apr 20th 2009, 06:55 PM
With regards to the following is Christs commandment that is from God not specific enough?

Jn 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jn 14:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn 15:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Is it not specific and is it not generally for all?

God bless you!

Firstfruits




That part as far as you are concern might depend upon you and your beliefs regarding how you obey the Holy Spirit in specific. I guess I should ask, how do you obey the commandment to love? You do not have to answer that question, because it was more of a comment.

I seemingly do it differently and I will have to be okay with this. I see the specific commandments as a standard and means of guidance as I obey the Holy Spirit which agrees with and says the same things as the Scripture says.

It is like when Jesus was confronted by the devil coming out of the wilderness. Jesus responded with Torah each time the enemy tried to get Him to disobey God.

manichunter
Apr 20th 2009, 06:57 PM
What?

Are you trying to make a point, ask a question or is this just a rant?

Can you just show me some love............. :kiss:

It was a question to First Fruit. Nothing to see here sir, just passing through .............. :pray:

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