I have a friend who says that Jesus never mentioned anything about homosexuality...and he's right. When I show him Lev 22:18 he responds with Lev 19:19 and the like...but for me to use Romans or Timothy I need to be able to show that Paul was granted authority by Jesus...so where is the scriptural support for Paul's authorithy?

Thanks in advance.

I have a friend who says that Jesus never mentioned anything about homosexuality...and he's right. When I show him Lev 22:18 he responds with Lev 19:19 and the like...but for me to use Romans or Timothy I need to be able to show that Paul was granted authority by Jesus...so where is the scriptural support for Paul's authorithy?

Thanks in advance.

Paul's authority is implied by the fact he had a direct encounter with Jesus. He was commissioned by Jesus and he was inspired by God to write the epistles.

what's the issue here?

Actually, there are quite a few passages that establish Paul's authority and Apostleship.

A couple that come immediately to mind are:

Acts chapter 9, with specific emphasis on vs 15-16: (Referring to Paul)

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

Peter and the other Apostles accepted his Apostleship: Galatians 2:7-10

But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.

Peter mentions Paul and infers his authority in 2 Peter 3:14-16

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

There are others, but these are the first 3 that come to mind...

Actually, there are quite a few passages that establish Paul's authority and Apostleship.

A couple that come immediately to mind are:

Acts chapter 9, with specific emphasis on vs 15-16: (Referring to Paul)
Galatians 2:7-10
2 Peter 3:14-16



There are others, but these are the first 3 that come to mind...

Muchas gracias McGyver! Just what I was looking for...the tie-in from Jesus > Original 12 > Paul.


what's the issue here?

The issue is that without scriptural support linking Paul to Jesus, it's hard to differentiate between Paul and any other person claiming to have had a 'vision', i.e. John Smith, Mohammad etc. Anybody could say they had a direct encounter with Jesus and was commissioned to do this or that. But only Paul's claim was substantiated by Peter.

Thanks again McGyver.

If your friend is trying to say that Jesus never spoke out against homosexuals, I'd have to disagree.

1) God wrote the Scriptures, and Jesus is not only the Son of God, but God in the flesh, so the OT is as much His word as the red letters in my Bible.

2) Jesus spoke against fornication and adultery in Matthew and Mark. Fornication is the sex act between unmarried adults, adultery is the sex act between adults who are not married to each other. Therefore, any sex act between unmarried adults was spoken against by Jesus. "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." (Matthew 15:19,20)

3) Jesus pointed out that in the beginning, God made male and female, and that they became one flesh. There is no mention of male and male, or female and female.

4) Jesus validates the OT writings, confirming the truth in them. So, anything that is written in the OT about sodomites (homosexuals) is applicable to today. "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:46,47)

5) There is no positive mention of sodomites in the Bible, period.

Hope that helps.

Paul was an Apostle, therefore that is where his authority comes from.

Romans 11:13; 1 Cor 1:1; 2 Cor 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 1 Tim 1:1; 2 Tim 1:1; Titus 1:1.



I have a friend who says that Jesus never mentioned anything about homosexuality...and he's right. When I show him Lev 22:18 he responds with Lev 19:19 and the like...but for me to use Romans or Timothy I need to be able to show that Paul was granted authority by Jesus...so where is the scriptural support for Paul's authorithy?

Thanks in advance.

If your friend is trying to say that Jesus never spoke out against homosexuals, I'd have to disagree.

1) God wrote the Scriptures, and Jesus is not only the Son of God, but God in the flesh, so the OT is as much His word as the red letters in my Bible. Yes, I know, but I am dealing with a Biblical skeptic who counters with Lev 19:19 and says that since the clothes I am wearing go against the command in 19:19 ...neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee...and follows with 'so you are just as much of an abomination as a homosexual'. See what I mean?


2) Jesus spoke against fornication and adultery in Matthew and Mark. Fornication is the sex act between unmarried adults, adultery is the sex act between adults who are not married to each other. Therefore, any sex act between unmarried adults was spoken against by Jesus.
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." (Matthew 15:19,20)Again, this is all well and good, but doesn't help me much when addressing this issue with a skeptic...'So you are saying that the only reason homosexuality is a sin is because it is outside of wedlock?'



4) Jesus validates the OT writings, confirming the truth in them. So, anything that is written in the OT about sodomites (homosexuals) is applicable to today
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:46,47) This, I can use, thank you. Oops, no I can't due to the other Levitical laws that no longer apply. Thanks though.:)

Paul was an Apostle, therefore that is where his authority comes from.

Romans 11:13; 1 Cor 1:1; 2 Cor 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 1 Tim 1:1; 2 Tim 1:1; Titus 1:1.

Who says Paul is an Apostle...Paul? That is what I am trying to get past. All of the verse you gave were written by Paul. This person is not a Christian, but grew up in Catholic school and knows the Bible fairly well...and he knows where the so-called weakness are. What I'm looking for is something to give Paul's words' authority besides 'because it's in the Bible', or 'because he said he was an Apostle.' Anyone can say they are an Apostle, and anyone can claim a vision/encounter. Basically he believes that everything outside of the words of Christ(everything outside of the Gospels) are not reliable and were probably made up after the fact. So he says, 'show me in the Bible where it says homosexuality is an abomination. He won't allow Lev 22:18 because of the other commands in that book that are no longer relevant. So I have to go to Paul, but in order to use Paul, I have to qualify his writing as the word of God.

I'm wondering why you feel you cannot use Leviticl laws that 'no longer apply'?
All those Levitical laws set forth a standard of perfection. Could we expect anything less than perfection from God?
Since God's standard is absolute perfection, and none of us are able to come anywhere close, those laws show us that we have great need of a Savior who would suffer the punishment of breaking that law in our place.

Who says Paul is an Apostle...Paul? That is what I am trying to get past. All of the verse you gave were written by Paul. This person is not a Christian, but grew up in Catholic school and knows the Bible fairly well...and he knows where the so-called weakness are. What I'm looking for is something to give Paul's words' authority besides 'because it's in the Bible', or 'because he said he was an Apostle.' Anyone can say they are an Apostle, and anyone can claim a vision/encounter. Basically he believes that everything outside of the words of Christ(everything outside of the Gospels) are not reliable and were probably made up after the fact. So he says, 'show me in the Bible where it says homosexuality is an abomination. He won't allow Lev 22:18 because of the other commands in that book that are no longer relevant. So I have to go to Paul, but in order to use Paul, I have to qualify his writing as the word of God.

Why does he accept the teachings of Christ but not the teachings of others? I would much rather expect the sayings of Jesus to be corrupted (Jesus Seminar) than the writings of His apostles, etc. Would make sense, wouldn't it? Paul isn't corrupted to agree with Jesus; Jesus is corrupted to agree with Paul. I would take the writings of Jesus (all the writings your friend agrees with), set them as a standard and then take Paul and see if the two are in agreement or disagreement (they will be in agreement though I foresee some difficulties). This in addition to what mcgyver has posted.

Why does he accept the teachings of Christ but not the teachings of others?

I have a pretty good idea that it is because he knows that Jesus doesn't address this issue specifically so it suits his position in this particular case...you know the type, I'm sure.:rolleyes:

...and thanks for the rest, Mr. Naga

I'm wondering why you feel you cannot use Leviticl laws that 'no longer apply'?
All those Levitical laws set forth a standard of perfection. Could we expect anything less than perfection from God?
Since God's standard is absolute perfection, and none of us are able to come anywhere close, those laws show us that we have great need of a Savior who would suffer the punishment of breaking that law in our place.So if I wear a shirt made of cotton and wool, I am just as guilty as a practicing homosexual?

So if I wear a shirt made of cotton and wool, I am just as guilty as a practicing homosexual?:D Yes, of course you are. Aren't you glad Christ died for you?

I have a pretty good idea that it is because he knows that Jesus doesn't address this issue specifically so it suits his position in this particular case...you know the type, I'm sure.:rolleyes:

...and thanks for the rest, Mr. Naga

Yeah, indeed seems plausible. Unfortunately it's also the undoing of his position unless he all of a sudden changes and starts doubting even the words of Jesus. If you can show Paul's authority (given by Jesus) and Paul's subsequent fulfilling off his commission. I don't see what ground your friend has to stand on other than that lovely thing known as moral culpability...

*Just think if you were to wear polyester! God's natural material with mans synthetic imitations! Abomination!

:D Yes, of course you are. Aren't you glad Christ died for you?
You better believe I'm glad!:D

You better believe I'm glad!:DMe too, brother, me too!

*Just think if you were to wear polyester! God's natural material with mans synthetic imitations! Abomination!

I'll try not to...it will give me nightmares.
:monkeyd:

(...no reason, just haven't the little dude in a while):)

I have a friend who says that Jesus never mentioned anything about homosexuality...and he's right. When I show him Lev 22:18 he responds with Lev 19:19 and the like...but for me to use Romans or Timothy I need to be able to show that Paul was granted authority by Jesus...so where is the scriptural support for Paul's authorithy?

Thanks in advance.I think the following idea is worthy of some study as a explicit approval of Paul's work as an Apostle by Jesus. Consider first that the Gospel of John is written by the same writer as the Revelation. That should put the Revelation on the same par as the Gospels. And further:

Revelations 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.


Jesus states that the believers in Ephesus are of the Church. We have it recorded how that Church was established and by who:


Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus:
...
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.


Jesus validates Paul's Apostleship by the Church of Ephesus (and others mentioned in Revelation, but one is enough), showing forth Paul's fruit of Apostleship.

Here is Paul's exit from the region when going back to Jerusalem, calling together the Church elders of Ephesus, and especially his warning regarding the coming of the "grievous wolves":


Acts 20:15 And we sailed thence, and came the next day over against Chios; and the next day we arrived at Samos, and tarried at Trogyllium; and the next day we came to Miletus.

16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,

19 Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:

20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

36 And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.

37 And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,

38 Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.


God Bless!

Yes, I know, but I am dealing with a Biblical skeptic who counters with Lev 19:19 and says that since the clothes I am wearing go against the command in 19:19 ...neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee...and follows with 'so you are just as much of an abomination as a homosexual'. See what I mean?
I do, and it's a typical "I know better than God" sort of attitude.

You cannot counter it with Scripture or understanding about God, it's going to have to be the power of the Holy Spirit that will convict your friend of the truth.


Again, this is all well and good, but doesn't help me much when addressing this issue with a skeptic...'So you are saying that the only reason homosexuality is a sin is because it is outside of wedlock?'You won't please this person by anything you tell him. Let the Lord work upon his heart, instead.

And be stedfast in your faith: that has convinced many people of the truth of God's word...

I have a question: why is it that your friend can pick and choose which part of the Bible to believe? What makes him an expert in what is truth and what is error?

If he says that the Bible is full of errors, then you might remind him that the parts of Scripture that he uses to prove any point might be in error, too. You really can't use something you consider to be flawed in order to prove a point that it is flawed.

That's like proclaiming that everything you say is a lie...if everything you say is a lie, and you state that, then you've just contradicted yourself by telling the truth... :hmm:

If he says that Jesus never said that sodomites were an abomination, that it is only in the OT or Paul, then he should consider the fact that perhaps, since the Bible isn't truth in whole, the parts about Jesus might be flawed. And the Scripture in which Jesus spoke against sodomites might be missing...or might not have been written down...

;)

You won't please this person by anything you tell him. Let the Lord work upon his heart, instead.

You are exactly right about this, and I knew that going in. Though I still want an answer to my question...and actually I got one from McGyver early on, but there's always room for more...and after reading Revelators response i have a feeling this thread might get a lot more interesting....:D

Well, you could look at it this way, none of the other Apostles or leaders of the early church denounced Paul saying he was not an apostle.


Paul considered himself the least of the Apostles, yet he was still an Apostle.

(1 Cor 15:9 NIV) For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

(1 Cor 15:10 NIV) But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

If you friend does not believe that Paul was an Apostle, does he actually believe any of the writings of Paul?

If Paul is not an apostle as he writes in his letters, this makes him a lier, therefore surely all of his other writings can not be trusted and should be rejected from the Bible?

If you follow this through to its conclusion, then most of the New Testament disapears.



Who says Paul is an Apostle...Paul? That is what I am trying to get past. All of the verse you gave were written by Paul. This person is not a Christian, but grew up in Catholic school and knows the Bible fairly well...and he knows where the so-called weakness are. What I'm looking for is something to give Paul's words' authority besides 'because it's in the Bible', or 'because he said he was an Apostle.' Anyone can say they are an Apostle, and anyone can claim a vision/encounter. Basically he believes that everything outside of the words of Christ(everything outside of the Gospels) are not reliable and were probably made up after the fact. So he says, 'show me in the Bible where it says homosexuality is an abomination. He won't allow Lev 22:18 because of the other commands in that book that are no longer relevant. So I have to go to Paul, but in order to use Paul, I have to qualify his writing as the word of God.

If you follow this through to its conclusion, then most of the New Testament disapears.Yes, I believe that is his objective.

I really do not know how you can help your friend. It sounds like they have already made up thier mind (Thier own minds) what they are going to accept and reject, regardless of what anyone tells them.

If they do not believe in Paul's writings, then they probably will not accept that the new testament is inspired by God and the will of God. They will probably reject Hebrews, which tells us of the New Covenant and the hope we have in Christ Jesus and many other teachings .

We can really only present what the bible says, if they reject the word of God, then it is thier choice.

There are testimonies, where God has turned the hardest unbelivers into belivers. (The Apostle Paul was one of these).

You could try praying about it and asking God what to do in this situation?



Yes, I believe that is his objective.

Who says Paul is an Apostle...Paul? That is what I am trying to get past. All of the verse you gave were written by Paul.

Here are some NT citations not written by Paul that validates Paul.

Acts 14:11 "And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out"

Luke, writer of the 3rd gospel and the book of Acts, specifically names Paul and Barnabas both apostles.

II Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

Peter, one of the original 12, and writer of this epistle, enorses the wisdom given to Paul from the Lord and the validity of all of Paul's epistles, which teach the knowlege of our Lord and Saviour.

Here are some NT citations not written by Paul that validates Paul.

Acts 14:11 "And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out"

Luke, writer of the 3rd gospel and the book of Acts, specifically names Paul and Barnabas both apostles.

II Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

Peter, one of the original 12, and writer of this epistle, enorses the wisdom given to Paul from the Lord and the validity of all of Paul's epistles, which teach the knowlege of our Lord and Saviour.

Thanks DT, the problem with Luke is that he can be dicounted by a skeptic because he was Paul's right hand man and was not himself an Apostle.. I believe 2 Peter 3:15-16 is the best counter for a number of reasons, but most of all because Peter was one of the original 12 who recieved delegation from Jesus Himself in the upper room.