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manichunter
Apr 15th 2009, 02:22 PM
Was the human race even suppose to know the difference between good and evil? :idea:


Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Hence, can we conclude that this was something we were never meant to experience. Mankind was to never know the difference between good and evil, sin and righteousness, and holy and profane.

What did Adam know, if he did not know good versus evil. Did Adam only know good or did he not know any sense of morality at all to include good? :confused


I think all Adam knew was God and what God told him. What God told Adam was good for Him independent of Adam's thoughts of morality and whether it was good or bad for him. It is obvious that God was looking out for Adam's good when He told him not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, Adam and Eve chose to know for themself and experience evil and disobediance.


I think the only thing Adam and Eve really knew was to trust God. Like children, who do not see a good parents good intentions for them until they become adults and experience good versus evil for themselves. We were created to trust God and what He says without doubting, fear, and questioning His goodness towards us. :pp


Just my two cents. What do you think.............. ? :hmm:

Zack702
Apr 16th 2009, 12:34 AM
I agree I think it they felt trust and faith without being aware of it having never experienced the contrary. Wether or not they were meant to become aware of it is questionable.

Scruffy Kid
Apr 16th 2009, 01:05 AM
Hi manichunter!
Good to see you!
Was the human race even suppose to know the difference between good and evil? ...


About your question, as such

Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Hence, can we conclude that this was something we were never meant to experience. Mankind was to never know the difference between good and evil, sin and righteousness, and holy and profane. ....

What do you think? I would read the passage in Genesis 2 and 3 in a different way.

I don't think the text which says God told humanity "You may not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is saying that Adam didn't know right from wrong. The very opposite.

I think that in various ways the text tells us that Adam knew, and was instructed by God, in what things were good and what were bad. God made us to till the ground, to keep the garden. That is, he made us to set bounds, to order things rightly, and so on. God made us informing us that there were some things we should not do, and that doing so would be very harmful to us. Again, that's instructing us in what's good and bad, right and wrong.

In my view, to forbid humanity to pluck and eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is to tell us not to try to take the definition of right and wrong into our own hands, and to tell us not to seek to expand our knowledge by trying out evil things. That command is very closely associated with our looking to God as our Maker and God, and letting Him rule in all our lives.

What the man and woman did, instead, was to heed the serpent's suggestion to try to take God's place, to "be like God", by rebelling against Him, and to believe the serpent's lie that taking and eating the fruit that had been forbidden would not harm us.

None of this means, I think, that God intended us to be ignorant of what's right and wrong. I think, instead, God was bringing us into a relationship of partnership with Him as Creator, in which by following His ways we were to avoid messing ourselves up (and becoming confused and mentally injured) by trying out bad things.

After the man and woman ate the apple, we see them ashamed, confused, hiding, blaming one another, and so on: alienated from God, from the reality of their situation, from themselves, from one another, from nature. Thus, the result of eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not, as the serpent had falsely led them to think, to make them wise, but to make them confused and troubled. They weren't gaining new knowledge of what's good and bad, right and wrong, but getting all jumbled about what they already knew. (In a sense it's like the "new knowledge" of a kid who takes drugs: it doesn't give him new and improved awareness and consciousness, though it might feel that way for a short time. Instead it erodes and destroys his awareness, conscience, and knowledge of reality, and of what's good and bad.


Larger context of Genesis 2-4

In the larger context, the ground serves as an important reference point, or symbolic focus, in the Genesis 2-4 account. To fully appreciate this, one must realize that the word for humanity is "Adam" and that the word for ground is "adamah." (Both suggest something reddish brown -- as soil and people in the middle east often are -- and are derived from the word for blood ("dawm") scholars tell us.)

Thus when the Genesis account says that God formed man (Adam) of the dust of the ground (adamah) and put him in the garden to tend and dress it -- that is to care for all that grew from the ground, one of the meanings that, I think, is present is that God gave humanity a fruitful human nature from which all manner of good things would naturally grow -- but expected man to take care of it: to take care of his heart and inner life, among other things. When humanity falls, God says to Adam "cursed is the ground because of you" and sadly informs us that henceforth the ground will bring forth good fruit only with difficulty, but will naturally bring forth thorns and thistles. I regard this passage as concerned less with the origins of agricultural difficulties, as with explaining that our sinfulness and our sins messes up human nature, messes up the very ground of our being, the fundamental elements out of which we are made, so that rather than naturally being good, and bring forth good things, we do good only with a lot of sweat and effort, but naturally bring forth nasty and corrupt deeds.

We see the loss of self-control, and of discernment, and of effective knowledge of how to live according to what is right, in a further stage of decline in the interaction between Cain and Abel. Cain is jealous of Abel (we could say, perhaps, because he wants himself and his own deeds and works "lifted up"), and rather than trying humbly and patiently to amend his own actions -- which God again warns him will make things come out OK -- Cain gives in to his anger and jealousy and kills Abel. God again says that he's further messed up his relationship to the ground: Abel's blood calls to God from the ground, and Cain is alienated from the ground. Thus Cain has become alienated from his own being, and cut off from the source of his strength, and is a "fugitive and wanderer" dwelling in the land of "Nod" (that is, "wandering"). The outworkings of the whole tragedy of wrong, rebellious, self-exaltation is not to give knowledge, but to increasingly blind humanity, and to give them illness of heart, and vision, and strength.

That's how I see it, anyhow.

In friendship, :hug:
Scruff

Alaska
Apr 16th 2009, 02:38 AM
That is, he made us to set bounds, to order things rightly, and so on. God made us informing us that there were some things we should not do, and that doing so would be very harmful to us. Again, that's instructing us in what's good and bad, right and wrong.



To know to do something like tend the ground etc. is not the same as having the consciousness of the existance of good and bad. The right way to dig a hole in the ground to plant a tree and the wrong way to dig a hole is not the knowledge of good and evil.
Animals don't have the knowledge of good and evil. they do things consequentially. That's how you train animals, by consequences. Animals wear no clothes and feel no shame. They do not have the knowledge of good and evil.
Adam wasn't told not to eat because it was wrong, he was told the consquences. If he was told it is wrong, he may have said he does not comprehend the concept of something being wrong.
Far greater than animals, made in God's image, ability to think and figure and talk and know God, yet the man and woman did not have the knowledge of good and evil.
Satan tempted them with getting it, so they knew this state of consciousness or awareness existed, and they were curious to experience this thing.
Right after they got it they tried to cover their nakedness. New emotions were experienced: shame, fear guilt etc.
We were not initially created to deal with this knowledge. Hence mankinds failure in being under the law of sin and death.
Jesus came to give us the ability to deal with it and get out from under the law of sin and death and get under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

BroRog
Apr 16th 2009, 04:57 AM
Was the human race even suppose to know the difference between good and evil? :idea:


Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Hence, can we conclude that this was something we were never meant to experience. Mankind was to never know the difference between good and evil, sin and righteousness, and holy and profane.

What did Adam know, if he did not know good versus evil. Did Adam only know good or did he not know any sense of morality at all to include good? :confused


I think all Adam knew was God and what God told him. What God told Adam was good for Him independent of Adam's thoughts of morality and whether it was good or bad for him. It is obvious that God was looking out for Adam's good when He told him not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, Adam and Eve chose to know for themself and experience evil and disobediance.


I think the only thing Adam and Eve really knew was to trust God. Like children, who do not see a good parents good intentions for them until they become adults and experience good versus evil for themselves. We were created to trust God and what He says without doubting, fear, and questioning His goodness towards us. :pp


Just my two cents. What do you think.............. ? :hmm:

I believe Eve's conversation with the serpent reveals that Eve's purpose for eating the forbidden fruit was so that she might decide for herself what was good and what was evil.

bagofseed
Apr 16th 2009, 05:19 AM
I believe Eve's conversation with the serpent reveals that Eve's purpose for eating the forbidden fruit was so that she might decide for herself what was good and what was evil.
I agree............

God knew (judged) good and evil based on who He is.
Now man became like God.
Man now knows good and evil based on who the man is apart from dependence on God.

Man's fall was from dependence on the capacity and reason of God into his own capacity and reason.

Now everyone loves to judge.

Give someone one option and they will most likely reject it or fight against it.
But give them choices; O how we love our choices, and opportunities to express OUR opinions our rights and wrongs, and we are satisfied.

Don't we love to know and choose and judge for our selves.
Most never know that this is a form of playing God, of demonstrating the fall of man.

Its become a part of what man is.

God solution is amazing, putting Him self in us so we would have the capacity and mind of God to choose as He would.
To be dependent on our selves and on God within us at the same time.

manichunter
Apr 16th 2009, 06:21 AM
Man, these were some good post. Thanks greatly. I will respond in short order tomorrow.

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