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VerticalReality
Apr 16th 2009, 04:52 PM
Can or will God give commands if those commands are impossible to fulfill? Additionally, if these commands are impossible to fulfill will He still bring judgment against those who do not fulfill them?

RogerW
Apr 16th 2009, 04:58 PM
Can or will God give commands if those commands are impossible to fulfill? Additionally, if these commands are impossible to fulfill will He still bring judgment against those who do not fulfill them?

Hi VR,

Do you mean commands like "go and sin no more" or "repent and believe"? Are you speaking of the commands that Christ fulfilled for us, knowing we could not fulfill them ourselves? If Christ fulfilled them, would we say they are impossible to fulfill? If Christ fulfilled them on our behalf, will God still bring judgment against us for not fulfilling them?

Many Blessings,
RW

HisLeast
Apr 16th 2009, 05:02 PM
Hard to say...

God sent Moses and Aaron to the Pharaoh with the command to "Let my people go". God also hardened Pharaoh's heart, which prevented the release of the slaves.

mizzdy
Apr 16th 2009, 05:09 PM
Can or will God give commands if those commands are impossible to fulfill? Additionally, if these commands are impossible to fulfill will He still bring judgment against those who do not fulfill them?

No, I don't believe God would do such a thing especially now that Christ is our high priest, dwelling within all of us that make commands possible. If it is the 10 commandments you are speaking of its not hard to love God above all else, or to honor are parents, hmm well maybe it is sometimes but if we are led by Christ working in our hearts He will show us and guide us in all ways, even honoring our parents. God would never ask of us what He knows we cannot do, its usually our own self that feels they are impossible.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2009, 05:11 PM
Can or will God give commands if those commands are impossible to fulfill? Additionally, if these commands are impossible to fulfill will He still bring judgment against those who do not fulfill them?

With the understanding that according to God we are all under sin, whether we have the law or not, so as RW has said the command to go thy way and sin no more, repent and believe and love one another which command is impossible?

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Apr 16th 2009, 05:17 PM
Hi VR,

Do you mean commands like "go and sin no more" or "repent and believe"? Are you speaking of the commands that Christ fulfilled for us, knowing we could not fulfill them ourselves? If Christ fulfilled them, would we say they are impossible to fulfill? If Christ fulfilled them on our behalf, will God still bring judgment against us for not fulfilling them?

Many Blessings,
RW

Is the reason we could not fulfill them because it was impossible, or was it because we weren't going about it the right way?

VerticalReality
Apr 16th 2009, 05:22 PM
Let's take this Scripture, for example . . .



Deuteronomy 28:47-52
“Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you. “They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the LORD your God has given you.


In this passage of Scripture the Lord brings judgment on the people because they simply do not serve Him with joy and gladness of heart. How often today do people battle depression and the "woe is me" syndrome all the while saying that it is impossible for them to walk above such things? Why would the Lord command us to be anxious for nothing, and always serve Him with joy and gladness of heart if such a thing is impossible?

keck553
Apr 16th 2009, 05:25 PM
Apparently this guy and his wife didn't have a problem with this 'impossibility"..

Luk 1:5-6
(5) In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
(6) They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

That doesn't mean they didn't need Messiah as their Savior. Obeying commandments has absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation and EVERYTHING to do with loving God.

VerticalReality
Apr 16th 2009, 05:35 PM
Something to keep in mind . . .

I'm not wanting this to turn into a law debate. This thread is not about law. Let's just focus on the subject matter in the Scripture I posted above. The issue in that Scripture is simply a matter of joy and gladness of heart toward the Lord.

Is it impossible to have a walk filled with joy and gladness of heart? Are things like depression just something we have to live with or suffer through as "part of life"? Why would the Lord say that we should not be anxious over anything . . . and yet at the same time it is impossible for people to overcome depression or anxiety?

keck553
Apr 16th 2009, 05:51 PM
I have no intent what-so-ever to debate ' the "Law" with you VR, I am simply answering your original question.

mizzdy
Apr 16th 2009, 06:40 PM
Something to keep in mind . . .

I'm not wanting this to turn into a law debate. This thread is not about law. Let's just focus on the subject matter in the Scripture I posted above. The issue in that Scripture is simply a matter of joy and gladness of heart toward the Lord.

Is it impossible to have a walk filled with joy and gladness of heart? Are things like depression just something we have to live with or suffer through as "part of life"? Why would the Lord say that we should not be anxious over anything . . . and yet at the same time it is impossible for people to overcome depression or anxiety?

As someone who does suffer from depression it is possible to live with joy and gladness everyday with the help of God. Even the days I am at my worst I can still feel God and know with His help I can overcome. This entire earth along with each of us are still living in a fallen world. Before I was brought back into God's fold depression ate at me, trying to find ways to get through it, looking for 'other' ways to cope. But since giving my life over when I feel those thoughts and feelings coming at me I know I can cry out to God and He will help me. Those feelings may not completely go away but they are managible. We humans will probably never be free from depression and illnesses at least until Christ comes again. But with God's help and the indwelling of Christ we are lifted and comforted through the trials we face. Not sure if thats the response you wanted though. :blushhap:

faithfulfriend
Apr 16th 2009, 06:53 PM
Can or will God give commands if those commands are impossible to fulfill? Additionally, if these commands are impossible to fulfill will He still bring judgment against those who do not fulfill them?

No.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Proof of an individuals love to God is through obeying his commandments.

We also know:

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 16th 2009, 07:03 PM
Something to keep in mind . . .

I'm not wanting this to turn into a law debate. This thread is not about law. Let's just focus on the subject matter in the Scripture I posted above. The issue in that Scripture is simply a matter of joy and gladness of heart toward the Lord.

Is it impossible to have a walk filled with joy and gladness of heart? Are things like depression just something we have to live with or suffer through as "part of life"? Why would the Lord say that we should not be anxious over anything . . . and yet at the same time it is impossible for people to overcome depression or anxiety?


When I look to the OT and do a word study on the characteristics of a 'saint'...... the Hebrew word 6035-6042..... I find that it includes being in a 'depressed' state.. depressed of 'mind'.. or situation.. being afflicted... being 'lowly'...

and when you look to those 'saints' of the OT/NT.. you will find that they have had times when they have been on 'top of the mountain'.. full of joy and gladness in the LORD.. yet then there are other times when they have been in a very low state...

if one is exhibiting signs of being depressed in spirit or mind.. that 'does not' mean they are 'un christian'.. or have 'lost their savlation'.. or have some 'hidden sin in their lives'.. which caused them to be in that state...

Personallly there have been times when I have been on top of the mountain.. joy and gladdness in the LORD is so strong... and then there have been times when I have felt depressed in spirit and without hope.. Yes this as a Born Again Christian from above.... had God abandoned me? no.. why did I go thru that and those times? to let me understand and perceive that He never Fails.. and that He is always Faithful.. and that He will never leave me nor forsake.. and that my 'state of mind'.. whether I'm walking in Joy and Gladness in Him... or feel lowly... in a depressed state of mind or situation..does not add or take away from His Salvation He has granted to me...

Study those Hebrew Words.. which means to be afflicted. lowly, meekness, gentleness, saintly....

Look and study the life of Elijah..... wow.. times of great victory.. then times when he didn't really know..and was very intimitated and down... but a Saint.. and used of God mightily...

The 'danger' is in the 'making' of an image of a Chrisitian...

Christians are suppose to walk and talk and act this way... according to how some percieve the 'walk' to be... judging by the flesh... always happy, prosperous, without any problems,... etc..

when God looks on the Heart.. and He percieves the Heart.. and its understanding and intents... thats where He will judge...

BroRog
Apr 16th 2009, 07:12 PM
Can or will God give commands if those commands are impossible to fulfill? Additionally, if these commands are impossible to fulfill will He still bring judgment against those who do not fulfill them?

I don't believe God will give us a command that is impossible to obey. He does, however, give us commands that seem impossible at the time, but only because we stubbornly don't want to obey. Disobedience is always a matter of the will.

Someone mentioned Pharaoh, which is a good example. In this case, we can say that it wasn't impossible for the Pharaoh to let the people go because, in the end, he finally let them go. While it was possible for the Pharaoh to let the people go, however, it wasn't going to happen while Pharaoh wished to keep them. Pharaoh disobeyed because he wanted to disobey, not because it was impossible for him to obey.

See what I mean?

RogerW
Apr 16th 2009, 08:04 PM
Is the reason we could not fulfill them because it was impossible, or was it because we weren't going about it the right way?

If it were possible for human beings, dead in trespasses and sins to fulfill the command "go and sin no more" and "repent and believe"...we would not need Christ to fulfill the commands for us.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Apr 16th 2009, 08:14 PM
Let's take this Scripture, for example . . .

In this passage of Scripture the Lord brings judgment on the people because they simply do not serve Him with joy and gladness of heart. How often today do people battle depression and the "woe is me" syndrome all the while saying that it is impossible for them to walk above such things? Why would the Lord command us to be anxious for nothing, and always serve Him with joy and gladness of heart if such a thing is impossible?

The passage you cite is written to a people chosen by God. A people who are already in covenant relationship with the LORD. What advantage hath the Jew? Much in every way! Why? They have the oracles of God. These are not just any old fallen sinners, but people who have been instructed in the law and prophets. Had they been obedient and served the LORD as instructed in the law and the prophets, they could have served Him with joy and gladness of heart, no matter what. They brought the judgment of God upon themselves, turning their joy into sorrow.

Don't we, who know the Scriptures, and claim to love our Lord do exactly the same thing when we focus on our circumstances in this life instead of focusing on the One who can make our hearts glad even during the most difficult trials in this life?

Is depression, and the "poor me" syndrome in this life very real? Absolutely! But does having depression have to sever our joy in the Lord? Absolutely not!

Many Blessings,
RW

keck553
Apr 16th 2009, 08:47 PM
Is it impossible to have a walk filled with joy and gladness of heart? Are things like depression just something we have to live with or suffer through as "part of life"? Why would the Lord say that we should not be anxious over anything . . . and yet at the same time it is impossible for people to overcome depression or anxiety?

Actually this is a very good question. The first thing that popped into my head was this:

2Co 12:9-10
(9) And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
(10) Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2009, 04:33 AM
If it were possible for human beings, dead in trespasses and sins to fulfill the command "go and sin no more" and "repent and believe"...we would not need Christ to fulfill the commands for us.

Many Blessings,
RW

So again, perhaps we weren't going about it the right way . . .

Since there is only one right way, I would assume what I am saying is clear.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2009, 04:36 AM
Something I also notice . . .

Why are folks always quick to add on a "but" to things that the word of God says?

"Yes, the Word of God says to be anxious for nothing, but . . . "

Paul did not include that "but" in Philippians 4:6 . . .

Why is it always . . .

"Yes, we should be anxious for nothing, but you don't know MY situation, brother . . . "

bagofseed
Apr 17th 2009, 04:41 AM
Can or will God give commands if those commands are impossible to fulfill? Additionally, if these commands are impossible to fulfill will He still bring judgment against those who do not fulfill them?
Yes and Yes............

THOM
Apr 17th 2009, 05:00 AM
Can or will God give commands if those commands are impossible to fulfill?NO! Commands aren't "fulfilled", they're "kept (or not)". . .and as a whole, rather than just one, two, and/or a few. JESUS CHRIST "kept" GOD'S LAW (COMMANDS) PERFECTLY; and in doing so, HE Fulfilled All of GOD'S LAW (COMMANDS) PERFECTLY.


Additionally, if these commands are impossible to fulfill will He still bring judgment against those who do not fulfill them?Yes! Because THE GOD WHO gave the "commands", also gave THE ONLY WAY to ever keep those commands, just as it is written, "For with God nothing shall be impossible."

But here's a little realized secret: Outside of [JESUS CHRIST] GOD, ALL of HIS "commands are impossible to fulfill (be 'kept')"; and if you're outside of [JESUS CHRIST] GOD, then you've already become unable to ever keep GOD's commands.

cross crusader
Apr 17th 2009, 05:01 AM
Something I also notice . . .

Why are folks always quick to add on a "but" to things that the word of God says?

"Yes, the Word of God says to be anxious for nothing, but . . . "

Paul did not include that "but" in Philippians 4:6 . . .

Why is it always . . .

"Yes, we should be anxious for nothing, but you don't know MY situation, brother . . . "
because people let their situation affect their proclamation...the bible is full of promises that we dont experience because we are idiots. (self included) i mean that is all it really boils down to. we are saying God is a liar. But to answer your OP No, and No. His word does not return void. He who has begun a good work in you will complete it. God never tells anyone to do something that he is not prepared the way for or made accomodations to succeed.

cross crusader
Apr 17th 2009, 05:06 AM
Something I also notice . . .

Why are folks always quick to add on a "but" to things that the word of God says?

"Yes, the Word of God says to be anxious for nothing, but . . . "

Paul did not include that "but" in Philippians 4:6 . . .

Why is it always . . .

"Yes, we should be anxious for nothing, but you don't know MY situation, brother . . . "
because people let their situation affect their proclamation. we are idiots (self included) the bible is full of promises from God that we do not see in our lives. we basically say God is a liar. throughout the bible God told people to do things, and he always provided a way for it to be completed, he never left them, the only time they failed was on their part not his. He supplies all our needs, never leaves us nor forsakes us.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2009, 04:29 PM
You often times hear folks say things like, "I have depression" or "I have anxiety" like it is some sort of disease that they caught. Like they didn't have any choice in the matter. Why would God command us to be anxious for nothing if anxiety and depression were things that we catch and it was not by our choosing?

The truth of the matter is that anxiety and depression are choices that we make. We choose to allow depression to set in. We choose to be anxious regarding our physical circumstances. If we had no say-so in the matter then God's Word would be unjust in commanding us to rejoice always and be joyful at heart.

RogerW
Apr 17th 2009, 04:42 PM
Something I also notice . . .

Why are folks always quick to add on a "but" to things that the word of God says?

"Yes, the Word of God says to be anxious for nothing, but . . . "

Paul did not include that "but" in Philippians 4:6 . . .

Why is it always . . .

"Yes, we should be anxious for nothing, but you don't know MY situation, brother . . . "

Greetings VR,

I wonder if you have discovered a very profound truth from Ph 4:6,7? Paul is telling us how we can be anxious for nothing beginning with but. Instead of being anxious in any situation, acknowledge that all things come from God. Therefore no matter the situation, whether good or bad commit it to God through prayer, then the peace of God will guard our hearts and minds through Christ, keeping us from being anxious.

Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

If all things that come to us is the will of God, we should learn to give thanks even for the trials that come into our lives. In this we have His assurance that the peace from God through Christ will watch over and guard our hearts and minds, keeping us from utterly falling. Look to the Lord and He will lift you up, bring comfort to your heart and mind in times of trial.

1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Many Blessings,
RW

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2009, 04:51 PM
Greetings VR,

I wonder if you have discovered a very profound truth from Ph 4:6,7? Paul is telling us how we can be anxious for nothing beginning with but. Instead of being anxious in any situation, acknowledge that all things come from God. Therefore no matter the situation, whether good or bad commit it to God through prayer, then the peace of God will guard our hearts and minds through Christ, keeping us from being anxious.

Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

If all things that come to us is the will of God, we should learn to give thanks even for the trials that come into our lives. In this we have His assurance that the peace from God through Christ will watch over and guard our hearts and minds, keeping us from utterly falling. Look to the Lord and He will lift you up, bring comfort to your heart and mind in times of trial.

1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Many Blessings,
RW

Good point, RogerW . . . thanks.

mizzdy
Apr 17th 2009, 05:13 PM
You often times hear folks say things like, "I have depression" or "I have anxiety" like it is some sort of disease that they caught. Like they didn't have any choice in the matter. Why would God command us to be anxious for nothing if anxiety and depression were things that we catch and it was not by our choosing?

The truth of the matter is that anxiety and depression are choices that we make. We choose to allow depression to set in. We choose to be anxious regarding our physical circumstances. If we had no say-so in the matter then God's Word would be unjust in commanding us to rejoice always and be joyful at heart.

I disagree yet agree. There are many times when we become depressed that we continue in that despite calling out to God and receiving His help for whatever reasons. Yet there are many cases where depression is not a choice we make let alone want to keep around. Some have very real imbalances, others its just merely hormonal in nature. Anxeity is the same way. What we choose to do with it all is the key. What I have learned to do is rely on God to lead me through the depression when it happens and if it is just a physical problem I am able to distinquish it and go from there. But the key is to rely on God and trust that whatever is wrong we can go to Him and He will help us through our problems.

keck553
Apr 17th 2009, 05:33 PM
I think a distinction needs to be made here. Clinical depression is a physiological condition, a chemical imbalance that usually requires the same medical intervention that high blood pressure or a bacterial infection requires.

Wallowing in our circumstances (yes, I am guilty) is just plain sin. All it takes to heal this condition is repentance and trust.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2009, 05:36 PM
I disagree yet agree. There are many times when we become depressed that we continue in that despite calling out to God and receiving His help for whatever reasons. Yet there are many cases where depression is not a choice we make let alone want to keep around. Some have very real imbalances, others its just merely hormonal in nature. Anxeity is the same way. What we choose to do with it all is the key. What I have learned to do is rely on God to lead me through the depression when it happens and if it is just a physical problem I am able to distinquish it and go from there. But the key is to rely on God and trust that whatever is wrong we can go to Him and He will help us through our problems.

The problem with this, though, is that it comes into conflict with Scripture. In a roundabout way this statement says that we are told by God to do something that we have no way of doing. How is such a command fair or just? Furthermore, how is it fair or just to bring judgment against someone who never was going to be able to fulfill the command in the first place?

To the contrary, it is our enemy who deceives us and tells us that we cannot overcome or there are things that are out of control that we must simply deal with. We turn to other men who are trying to find a physical cause to all our problems and allow their diagnosis (such as chemical imbalances . . . I wonder what causes the chemical imbalances? :hmm:) to tell us what is truth rather than letting the Word of God tell us what is truth. We should let God be true and every man a liar, or let God be true and every situation contrary to Him and His Word be a lie. If the only weapon our enemy has against us is deception we must be very careful that our attitudes and mindsets are not based in deception.

Let's not allow our physical circumstances determine for us what is true. God's Word is true regardless of what my experience suggests.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2009, 05:52 PM
I think a distinction needs to be made here. Clinical depression is a physiological condition, a chemical imbalance that usually requires the same medical intervention that high blood pressure or a bacterial infection requires.

Why would we be forced to deal with such a situation when the Lord has promised us the following . . .

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

How is someone with psychological imbalances walking in this "sound mind" that we are promised through the Spirit of God?

manichunter
Apr 17th 2009, 06:04 PM
The carnal mind/man cannot submit to the commands of God, nor understand them, hence the distortions in application and understanding of the commands. It is only by the Spirit can one spiritually apply and understand the principles and precepts of the commandments. Intellect and emotions will always fall short because it cannot know the mind of God. To be carnal minded is death, and to be spiritually minded is life. Hence, the carnal mind absence of submission to the spiritual mind is still subject to the curse of death.


This means that in our carnality it is impossible to live the commandments without legalism, self-condemnation, and hypocrisy. However, in the Spirit all things are possible through Jesus who strengthens us to keep His commandments.

mizzdy
Apr 17th 2009, 06:21 PM
The problem with this, though, is that it comes into conflict with Scripture. In a roundabout way this statement says that we are told by God to do something that we have no way of doing. How is such a command fair or just? Furthermore, how is it fair or just to bring judgment against someone who never was going to be able to fulfill the command in the first place?

To the contrary, it is our enemy who deceives us and tells us that we cannot overcome or there are things that are out of control that we must simply deal with. We turn to other men who are trying to find a physical cause to all our problems and allow their diagnosis (such as chemical imbalances . . . I wonder what causes the chemical imbalances? :hmm:) to tell us what is truth rather than letting the Word of God tell us what is truth. We should let God be true and every man a liar, or let God be true and every situation contrary to Him and His Word be a lie. If the only weapon our enemy has against us is deception we must be very careful that our attitudes and mindsets are not based in deception.

Let's not allow our physical circumstances determine for us what is true. God's Word is true regardless of what my experience suggests.

Through scripture we are told to ask God for help, to cry out to Him in our needs even if one does suffer from any of the forms of depression. I don't think God will judge us wrongly if we are trying to follow in every way even though depression and anxiety. The way I see Phil. 4:8 is that we should take everything to God all of our problems both great and small and let Him guide our heart and minds. I may get blasted but I do not think that psychology and the like can cure anything let along depression even if they are helpful in determining if it is a imbalance or not. Sometimes all depression is is sin plain and simple and the ignoring the need to confess and repent the sin(s). At least thats one of the reasons how I finally came to see my need for God in my life. And I think that the chemical imbalances are rooted in the fall of man creating broken bodies and minds. Those chemical imbalances are real as is depression caused by hormonal imbalances, just ask any menopausal woman! :P It is true the enemy will use anything in their arsenal to derail a believer including trying to keep someone in depression and the like. Yet we must be careful to guide someone who is suffering and not tell them they may be somehow possessed or being led by the enemy.

John146
Apr 17th 2009, 06:51 PM
If it were possible for human beings, dead in trespasses and sins to fulfill the command "go and sin no more" and "repent and believe"...we would not need Christ to fulfill the commands for us.

Many Blessings,
RWWhy were the commands given then? Just for something to do? Did Jesus say "repent and believe the gospel" and then under His breath say "Yeah, right. Like that's gonna happen unless I do it for you."? Jesus came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32). He calls sinners who are dead in trespasses and sins to repentance. He wouldn't do that if they didn't have the capability of responding to His call and obeying His command to repent.

As for the "go and sin no more" thing, He said that to someone who was saved and not to someone who was any longer spiritually dead. If you look at the context He was telling her to stop walking in darkness or in her old sinful lifestyle. He was telling her to walk in His light rather than in spiritual darkness like she had before. He wasn't telling her to never sin again.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

The context shows that He was telling her to no longer walk in darkness but to instead walk in Him because He is the light of the world.

What is your understanding of the following passages:

1 John 3
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Do you read these the same way you read the verse where Jesus tells the woman to sin no more? If Jesus was literally telling the woman to never sin again then are these passages saying that those who are born of God never sin and can't sin and if we do sin at all we are of the devil? If that was what they were saying then no one is born of God because we all sin even after we are born again. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar (1 John 1:8).

I believe when Jesus said "go and sin no more" it should be understood in the same context as the passages above. On the surface they seem to say that you're not born of God if you ever sin. But the reality is that one is not born of God if they are living a sinful lifestyle. We are either slaves to sin and wickedness or to righteousness. If we sin it doesn't mean we are slaves to it. As John says to believers:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we sin it doesn't mean we've given ourselves back over to the devil and to spiritual darkness.

So, no, God does not give commands that are impossible to be kept and obeyed. God isn't in the business of playing games by telling people to do things that they can't do.

keck553
Apr 17th 2009, 06:56 PM
Why would we be forced to deal with such a situation when the Lord has promised us the following . . .

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

How is someone with psychological imbalances walking in this "sound mind" that we are promised through the Spirit of God?

The two words are so close, they are easy to mis-read. I typed "physiological", not "psychological".

many, many of God's children suffer from physical impairements; afterall we live in a fallen would, where the consequences of sin and disobedience have caused tremendous decay and terrible physical consequences. Even Paul suffered from an obviously physical debillitating condition.

RogerW
Apr 17th 2009, 08:07 PM
So, no, God does not give commands that are impossible to be kept and obeyed. God isn't in the business of playing games by telling people to do things that they can't do.

Hi Eric,

Why then do we need Christ?

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Apr 17th 2009, 08:16 PM
Hi Eric,

Why then do we need Christ?

Many Blessings,
RWI'd be more than happy to answer that, Roger, if you would be kind enough to first answer the questions I asked in my post and respond to what I said in my post. Can you give me any reasons why God would command people to do something that they are not able to do?

RogerW
Apr 17th 2009, 08:30 PM
I'd be more than happy to answer that, Roger, if you would be kind enough to first answer the questions I asked in my post and respond to what I said in my post. Can you give me any reasons why God would command people to do something that they are not able to do?

Well Eric we have danced to this same old tune many times. But since the OP is about ability to keep God's commands, I'll limit my reply to your first two questions in an attempt to keep the replies on topic.

You ask, "Why were the commands given then? Just for something to do?" Well take for instance the command for us to repent and believe. Without having received the command we would not know (1) that we must repent and believe (2) that we cannot do it. If we never told that God requires us to repent and believe, and we never discover that we cannot keep that command, then we would never know (1) our natural fallen state, spiritually separated from God forever (2) our need for a Savior.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Apr 17th 2009, 08:46 PM
Well Eric we have danced to this same old tune many times. But since the OP is about ability to keep God's commands, I'll limit my reply to your first two questions in an attempt to keep the replies on topic.

You ask, "Why were the commands given then? Just for something to do?" Well take for instance the command for us to repent and believe. Without having received the command we would not know (1) that we must repent and believe (2) that we cannot do it.How exactly does the command to repent and believe inform us that we can't do it? I don't see the logic in that. Do you have any scripture to support that notion?


If we never told that God requires us to repent and believe, and we never discover that we cannot keep that command, then we would never know (1) our natural fallen state, spiritually separated from God forever (2) our need for a Savior.I don't really agree with that. There are verses that don't contain any commands that inform us that we are all sinners separated from God by our sin, inform us that repentance leads to salvation and inform us that by believing in Christ we will have everlasting life. There are no commands given in those verses yet they make clear the two things you listed there.

The fact is that Christ commanded people who were sinners, dead in their trespasses and sins, to repent and believe the gospel. If they were unable to do so then He was wasting His time and apparently just playing some kind of joke on them by commanding them to do something God supposedly didn't give them the ability to do. Giving a command to do something is not the way to inform someone that they can't do something. That simply makes no sense.

If Christ was telling sinners to repent and believe without actually requiring them to do so then that wasn't a command at all. A command is something God gives where He expects obedience in response.

RogerW
Apr 17th 2009, 09:06 PM
How exactly does the command to repent and believe inform us that we can't do it? I don't see the logic in that. Do you have any scripture to support that notion?

It is through the law that we have a knowledge of our sin. Yet by the deeds of the law, made known either by reason, conscience, tradition, or revelation, no man will be justified; that there is no form of obedience which could be rendered by them, that would justify spiritually dead men in the sight of a holy God.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Even if we could keep the command to repent and believe...apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, it would be a work of our flesh by which no man will be justified in His sight.

Many Blessings,
RW

keck553
Apr 17th 2009, 09:06 PM
Hi Eric,

Why then do we need Christ?

Many Blessings,
RW

Because commands were NEVER given as a path to salvation.

John146
Apr 17th 2009, 09:18 PM
It is through the law that we have a knowledge of our sin.Yes, but the command to repent and believe the gospel is not part of the law. So, is our knowledge of our sin through the law or through the command to repent and believe the gospel?


Even if we could keep the command to repent and believe...apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, it would be a work of our flesh by which no man will be justified in His sight.

Many Blessings,
RWWhere does scripture teach that? Jesus commanded people who were not regenerated to repent and believe the gospel. He did not say that they had to first be regenerated or born again before they could do so. He called sinners to repentance and not people who were already born again.

RogerW
Apr 17th 2009, 10:47 PM
Because commands were NEVER given as a path to salvation.

Hi keck,

Exactly! The command; i.e. repent and believe makes us realize our shortcoming. Even if we could keep the command, we would not be saved by keeping it. That is why Christ had to come and show us we can only keep the command to repent and believe through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. In our fallen natural man, being dead in trespasses and sins, we cannot obey God's commandments...none of them. Of course, as you imply the commands were NEVER given as a path to salvation. Only as an acknowledgement of our sinfulness.

Many Blessings,
RW

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2009, 11:08 PM
Through scripture we are told to ask God for help, to cry out to Him in our needs even if one does suffer from any of the forms of depression.

The Word of God proclaims that He has already given us every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 1:3). What are you going to ask Him for that He hasn't already given? In His grace He has already bestowed upon us every spiritual blessing available. It is simply our duty to walk by faith in order to reap them.


I don't think God will judge us wrongly if we are trying to follow in every way even though depression and anxiety.

If we are following God in every way why would there be depression or anxiety?


The way I see Phil. 4:8 is that we should take everything to God all of our problems both great and small and let Him guide our heart and minds.

Paul says in Philippians 4:7 that the peace of God that surpasses understanding will guard our heart and mind through Christ Jesus. Peace is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and it is a spiritual blessing that God has already given us. Peace is something that remains in our spirit at all times. It's not something that leaves us. The problem is that we walk in the flesh and do not always experience the fruit of God's Spirit manifest in our lives. The problem is not that God isn't giving. The problem is that we get carnal and walk in the flesh. That is when we reap things such as depression and anxiety.


I may get blasted but I do not think that psychology and the like can cure anything let along depression even if they are helpful in determining if it is a imbalance or not.

I agree 100% with you here. Psychologists will try to give you mechanisms in order to cope with the situation you are in. They will give you medication and things like that which will temporarily pluck fruit off the carnal tree we are producing from our heart. However, psychologists never can uproot that tree through carnal means in order to produce in us different fruit from a different seed. Only the Word of God and His Spirit can do that in us. We truly change in our heart because faith is at work to allow the Spirit to transform us.


And I think that the chemical imbalances are rooted in the fall of man creating broken bodies and minds. Those chemical imbalances are real as is depression caused by hormonal imbalances, just ask any menopausal woman! :P

Nobody is denying that they are real. What is being said is that this stuff is fruit from a tree rooted in deception. Unless this tree rooted in deception is uprooted by God's truth a person will never produce from the seed of everlasting life. They will suffer from all the corruption of this world.


Yet we must be careful to guide someone who is suffering and not tell them they may be somehow possessed or being led by the enemy.

How is a person going to be free from an enemy who is oppressing them if they do not know that there is an enemy there who is oppressing them? Our Savior said that we will know the truth and the truth will set us free. If we do not know the truth that reveals all the deceptive tactics of our enemy then we will not know or understand how to walk above it.

VerticalReality
Apr 17th 2009, 11:10 PM
The two words are so close, they are easy to mis-read. I typed "physiological", not "psychological".

Sorry for misunderstanding. My mistake.

RogerW
Apr 18th 2009, 12:02 AM
Yes, but the command to repent and believe the gospel is not part of the law. So, is our knowledge of our sin through the law or through the command to repent and believe the gospel?

Eric, repentance and believing in the coming of Messiah (gospel/good news) was declared through the prophets of old. Since the time for the long awaited Messiah has come God commands all men to repent and believe the gospel.

Mr 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Ac 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Ac 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

The Jews, through whom Messiah would come, were never ignorant or without knowledge of the Savior, they had throughout the ages been waiting for the birth of Christ. Because the prophets had foretold of His coming, the Jews are without excuse for not repenting and believing, just as Christ's forerunner, John the Baptist had warned them to.

Now that Christ has been born, died, and resurrected from the dead, not even the Gentiles can claim ignorance. All men are commanded by God to repent and believe the gospel that is available to all peoples of the world. Yet the command of God is not obeyed, not by the Jews, not by Gentiles. Why? Because the command to repent and believe is not the way that we are saved. The command, as I have already said, exposes our sins and shows us our great need of a Savior.

We can try as we will to repent and believe, but apart from God's Sovereign Grace through the gift of saving faith we will not be saved. Salvation is a supernatural act of God given His own through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. We will obey His command to repent and believe once He has worked in us, making us willing. But until God does this supernatural work in whosoever He wills, man cannot, in his/her fallen natural state repent and believe.

Many blessings,
RW

cross crusader
Apr 18th 2009, 03:16 AM
are you telling me Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?

mizzdy
Apr 19th 2009, 03:10 PM
The Word of God proclaims that He has already given us every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 1:3). What are you going to ask Him for that He hasn't already given? In His grace He has already bestowed upon us every spiritual blessing available. It is simply our duty to walk by faith in order to reap them.



If we are following God in every way why would there be depression or anxiety?



Paul says in Philippians 4:7 that the peace of God that surpasses understanding will guard our heart and mind through Christ Jesus. Peace is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and it is a spiritual blessing that God has already given us. Peace is something that remains in our spirit at all times. It's not something that leaves us. The problem is that we walk in the flesh and do not always experience the fruit of God's Spirit manifest in our lives. The problem is not that God isn't giving. The problem is that we get carnal and walk in the flesh. That is when we reap things such as depression and anxiety.




I agree 100% with you here. Psychologists will try to give you mechanisms in order to cope with the situation you are in. They will give you medication and things like that which will temporarily pluck fruit off the carnal tree we are producing from our heart. However, psychologists never can uproot that tree through carnal means in order to produce in us different fruit from a different seed. Only the Word of God and His Spirit can do that in us. We truly change in our heart because faith is at work to allow the Spirit to transform us.



Nobody is denying that they are real. What is being said is that this stuff is fruit from a tree rooted in deception. Unless this tree rooted in deception is uprooted by God's truth a person will never produce from the seed of everlasting life. They will suffer from all the corruption of this world.

How is a person going to be free from an enemy who is oppressing them if they do not know that there is an enemy there who is oppressing them? Our Savior said that we will know the truth and the truth will set us free. If we do not know the truth that reveals all the deceptive tactics of our enemy then we will not know or understand how to walk above it.


Then why pray at all if God has already given us all we need and already knows the things we are going to ask? I don't know about you but I am not perfect and need God's help daily and even if He knows I do I still ask for His help.

I know I still mess up and sin even though I try my hardest to follow God in all of the ways He wants me to go. It would be true there would be no depression or illness if we all followed God in every single thing we do, yet thats not the world we live in, at least not yet!

Yes that is very true, we are not made perfect yet, we all sin. I would love never to feel depressed again yet I know when I do God is there for me to lean on and Christ is ready to take my burden.

I am not a big fan of meds but sometimes they are needed. But to rely on meds to fix all of ones ills like depression is not the best option either. Relying on God is one of the hardest lessons man has to learn, putting your trust in Him is a biggest obstacle some will ever overcome.

Even if these disorders are rooted in deception out right telling someone they are deceived is not really going to help anyone if they are severly depressed or having an anxiety attack. Working with the person to find the root of the problem is the only way to help. Honestly though can you tell clinical depression from other types? Like I said go and ask a menopausal woman about depression and see if they feel they are being led by deception or just natural hormones. Although I have to believe that was all in the curse God gave to Eve! :) Each person must work out for themselves what is wrong and why and if those people reach out for help what would be the first thing you tell them, they are deceived? or God is there to help you and so am I?

VerticalReality
Apr 19th 2009, 07:55 PM
Then why pray at all if God has already given us all we need and already knows the things we are going to ask?

I assume you're speaking of our spiritual blessings. It's not a matter "if" God has given them. His Word clearly says that He has given them.

Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

The Word of God says that He "has" blessed us with every spiritual blessing in Christ. It doesn't say that He's going to bless us. It says that He already has blessed us. As for why we pray . . . there are many reasons, but you are correct in one thing here . . . He does already know what we're in need of and what we're going to ask.

Matthew 6:7-8
And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

We should pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ. We should pray for revelation and understanding. However, some things we should no longer have to continuously ask for because they have already been given. We simply need to walk by faith and accept them. When we ask for God to save us when we confess Jesus Christ as Lord . . . Jesus doesn't die all over again on the cross. This is something that He already accomplished 2,000 years ago. We are simply receiving by faith something that God has already provided for us. The same is true for every spiritual blessing. These are all things that God has already provided through Christ for those who will choose to believe and walk by faith. God does not continuously keep sending His Son to die for us. He has already done that. It is finished. Through Christ and His sacrifice is every spiritual blessing made available to us. Just as when we accept salvation by God's grace through faith . . . the same applies for every other spiritual blessing. It's not that God has not given. He has given. The truth is that we are simply not tapping into these blessings by faith. If we are not walking by faith then we are not walking in the spirit. If we are not walking the spirit then that means we are walking in the flesh, and in the flesh is where we reap things such as depression and anxiety.


I don't know about you but I am not perfect and need God's help daily and even if He knows I do I still ask for His help.

No doubt about that. None of us are perfect in the flesh. However, it's not God's fault that we aren't perfect in the flesh. It's not His fault that we experience depression and anxiety. The reason we experience depression and anxiety is because we are imperfect in the flesh and we walk in that flesh rather than in the spirit. If we would walk in the spirit by faith as we are supposed to do then we would not reap things that are of corruption. The spirit is not imperfect. The spirit is complete in Him. Therefore, if we walk in the spirit then we will reap the everlasting life that is in it.


I know I still mess up and sin even though I try my hardest to follow God in all of the ways He wants me to go. It would be true there would be no depression or illness if we all followed God in every single thing we do, yet thats not the world we live in, at least not yet!

So then you agree that the reason we experience things contrary to God and His blessings is because we choose otherwise. We choose rather to walk in the flesh and reap the corruption of it. I do not call sin a "mistake" in the sense that committing sin is an "accident". Folks talk about sin like them committing it was all a big mistake in the sense that it was an accident. The only sin that could possibly be an accident are those committed in complete ignorance. Any other sin is not an accident. Sin is committed because that is what people desire to do in their heart, which is why sin is so serious and it is why we reap so much corruption when we choose sin. Sin isn't just a result of us living in a fallen world or a result of the sinful flesh we live in. Those are just scapegoats that people like to use because they do not want to accept responsibility of their own wickedness. However, Jesus said in Matthew 15:1-20 that all sin and wickedness comes from the heart of a man/woman. Christians sin because that is what they desire to do. It's not that they just cannot control themselves and they cannot help but sin. Romans 6 tells us that Jesus Christ has broken the bondage of sin over us, and if we walk by faith we will not sin. We sin when we stop walking by faith and choose in our heart to go after the flesh rather than the spirit.



Yes that is very true, we are not made perfect yet, we all sin. I would love never to feel depressed again

Then don't. It really is as simple as that. There is no complex method or procedure for experiencing that peace that surpasses understanding. All we have to do is believe and rest in Him. We simply must choose.


yet I know when I do God is there for me to lean on and Christ is ready to take my burden.

However, the Word of God proclaims that Jesus has already taken our burden. Why do we need to continue to ask Him to do something that He has already done? That is immediately starting out in unbelief. If I'm asking God for something that He has already given then I'm basically saying that I don't believe He has given it and therefore I must continue to beg Him for it. The Word says that He bore our griefs and carried our sorrows. Why should we continue to ask Him to do something again that He has already done? In doing so we are saying that He hasn't done anything when in reality He has.




I am not a big fan of meds but sometimes they are needed. But to rely on meds to fix all of ones ills like depression is not the best option either.

This not a thread about telling people they shouldn't take medication. Taking medication is between the individual and God. In reality, some folks need medication because they will die without it. Not everyone is walking in faith to overcome such things. Therefore, without the medication they will continue to reap corruption. Only by faith do we reap from the spirit. If we are doubting we are not walking by faith. So if a person cannot walk without doubt then they will have to take medication because the Word of God declares that those who doubt cannot receive anything from God. Complete faith is necessary to receive from the spirit.


Even if these disorders are rooted in deception out right telling someone they are deceived is not really going to help anyone if they are severly depressed or having an anxiety attack.

I disagree. For some in our hyper-sensitive and hyper-defensive society it may cause offense. But the truth always does offend for those who are prideful at heart and do not want to humble themselves to the truth of God's Word. How many times do we see in Scripture where folks like the apostle Paul wrote, "Be not deceived . . . "? The Word of God has no problem calling deception what it is. It is the truth that sets folks free if they choose to humble themselves and receive it by faith. Those who harden themselves and get offended are the ones who are prideful at heart. The Word of God says that our Lord gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. The fact that some get offended by this message is the very reason why they are still in bondage. Pride brings bondage.


Working with the person to find the root of the problem is the only way to help.

Finding the cause is the easy part. The hard part is folks receiving the Word of God with a softened heart that isn't bent on blaming all their issues on other things rather than what's in their own heart. We all produce the fruit from that which is rooted in our heart. If our fruit is depression, anxiety, and the like, it is because we have a heart rooted in the lies of the devil. We have accepted his seed of deception and have chosen in our heart to seek after carnality rather than the Spirit of God.


Honestly though can you tell clinical depression from other types? Like I said go and ask a menopausal woman about depression and see if they feel they are being led by deception or just natural hormones.

The Word of God does not say to be anxious for nothing unless you are going through menopause. The Word of God does not say to be anxious for nothing unless some psychologist has diagnosed you with a chemical imbalance or "clinical depression". The reason we reap these chemical imbalances and this "clinical depression" is because we are not walking in the spirit but rather in the flesh where all corruption and death dwells.


Each person must work out for themselves what is wrong and why and if those people reach out for help what would be the first thing you tell them, they are deceived? or God is there to help you and so am I?

I would tell them that God has already provided the answer to our problems. He has already given. We must simply believe. And yes, I would tell them about the deception of the enemy that is preventing them from walking in the blessings God has provided. That is God's truth, and sugarcoating it with a false sense of support will not bring deliverance. God's truth is what sets free. Not our pats on the back and false encouragement. We must encourage folks to seek God by faith through what He has done by His Word and His promises. I'm certainly not going to go on and on about, "Well, we live in a fallen world . . . and things like this just happen . . . and these are things that we just have to deal with because that's life . . . "

Those are all lies of the devil to keep us walking in the corrupted flesh. The only way to reap victory and deliverance is to walk by faith in the spirit.

mizzdy
Apr 20th 2009, 02:41 PM
Quote:
I know I still mess up and sin even though I try my hardest to follow God in all of the ways He wants me to go. It would be true there would be no depression or illness if we all followed God in every single thing we do, yet thats not the world we live in, at least not yet!


So then you agree that the reason we experience things contrary to God and His blessings is because we choose otherwise. We choose rather to walk in the flesh and reap the corruption of it. I do not call sin a "mistake" in the sense that committing sin is an "accident". Folks talk about sin like them committing it was all a big mistake in the sense that it was an accident. The only sin that could possibly be an accident are those committed in complete ignorance. Any other sin is not an accident. Sin is committed because that is what people desire to do in their heart, which is why sin is so serious and it is why we reap so much corruption when we choose sin. Sin isn't just a result of us living in a fallen world or a result of the sinful flesh we live in. Those are just scapegoats that people like to use because they do not want to accept responsibility of their own wickedness. However, Jesus said in Matthew 15:1-20 that all sin and wickedness comes from the heart of a man/woman. Christians sin because that is what they desire to do. It's not that they just cannot control themselves and they cannot help but sin. Romans 6 tells us that Jesus Christ has broken the bondage of sin over us, and if we walk by faith we will not sin. We sin when we stop walking by faith and choose in our heart to go after the flesh rather than the spirit.


Let me ask you this have you ever had a true depressive episode? I agree it is how we deal with our problems that are at the root of our problems. Although I know many who are depressed who do walk in the Spirit and give glory to God daily for all their problems. How does that fit into your idea that if we are depressed we are not walking in the Spirit?

Yes that is very true, we are not made perfect yet, we all sin. I would love never to feel depressed again


Yes that is very true, we are not made perfect yet, we all sin. I would love never to feel depressed again yet I know when I do God is there for me to lean on and Christ is ready to take my burden.

Then don't. It really is as simple as that. There is no complex method or procedure for experiencing that peace that surpasses understanding. All we have to do is believe and rest in Him. We simply must choose.

I take responsiblity for my depression even when its hormonal yet its not a choice for me its something that happens and I deal with it. To simply say "then don't" is unrealisitic for many. And since you cut my quote I put the whole thing to show that no matter how I feel, depressed or not I can go to my Father God in heaven and He will help me deal with whatever comes my way. Funny even when I am depressed I feel the peace given to me by God its what helps me deal. Would you tell a parent who just lost their child, who is very depressed that they are just deceived? and they are not choosing to walk in the spirit?

VerticalReality
Apr 20th 2009, 03:35 PM
Let me ask you this have you ever had a true depressive episode?

I'm not sure if there is anyone alive who hasn't exprerienced some sort of depression at some time or another.


Although I know many who are depressed who do walk in the Spirit and give glory to God daily for all their problems. How does that fit into your idea that if we are depressed we are not walking in the Spirit?

If the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control . . . how can someone walk in the Spirit and be depressed? Walking in the Spirit means that you reap and produce forth the fruit of the Spirit. Depression is not a fruit of the Spirit . . . it is what is reaped in the flesh.


I take responsiblity for my depression even when its hormonal yet its not a choice for me its something that happens and I deal with it. To simply say "then don't" is unrealisitic for many.

That depends on what you view as "realistic". If you allow the Word of God to determine for you what is true and what is a lie of the enemy then walking above such depression is very realistic. If someone does not believe with all their heart that they have been given victory over such depression then they will certainly not walk above it. All things that are reaped from the Spirit are reaped through faith. If we do not believe we have victory by faith then we will not receive what has been given. It's just as the Israelites with the promised land given by God. God had already provided this promised land for them. It was their duty to possess it by faith. God did not have to continuously give more promised land. He had already given it. It was the Israelites duty by faith to believe Him and possess what He had already provided.


And since you cut my quote I put the whole thing to show that no matter how I feel, depressed or not I can go to my Father God in heaven and He will help me deal with whatever comes my way. Funny even when I am depressed I feel the peace given to me by God its what helps me deal. Would you tell a parent who just lost their child, who is very depressed that they are just deceived? and they are not choosing to walk in the spirit?

Grieving the loss of a loved one and depression are two very different things. Grieving the loss of loved ones is not what is being spoken of in this thread. We will certainly miss our loved ones, but them being gone should not cause us to go into depression. If I lost my child I would certainly miss him. However, I would also rejoice that he is with the Lord and I will someday see him again right alongside my Savior in His kingdom. I would not make it all about me and how miserable life now is because he has gone to be with the Lord. That is not healthy, and it is not something that God would desire of us. A spiritual perspective would realize that my son does not belong to me . . . he belongs to the Lord. Therefore, if the time for my son comes to go be with His Creator then while I will certainly miss him during my time here I will understand and rejoice in the fact that my son is with our Savior.

The fact is we can try to come up with all sorts of excuses for why we feel down or discouraged, but the truth of the matter is that these are all choices that we make. We don't have to be depressed, and in all honesty we should not be. We have every reason to rejoice and be joyful in Him. There is absolutely no reason why we should feel down in the dumps. In every case I've seen depression comes about for very self-absorbed reasons. I don't say that to offend, but depression is always about how "we" feel and how outside circumstances are impacting "us". Perhaps if our focus was on the Lord and our attention was more on Him we would not have the time to feel depressed or down in the dumps about our circumstances. The Israelites sure felt justified in their depression. However, the Lord did not allow them an opportunity for excuse. He was quick to remind them of how blessed they were. Unfortunately, they had to be beaten up by their enemy quite a bit before some of them would finally realize it.

VerticalReality
Apr 20th 2009, 04:04 PM
Look, folks . . .

We must treat things like depression as we would treat the devil himself. The devil is the author of such nonsense. Would you allow a thief to just waltz right into your house and steal everything you own? NO! If you have authority you will take a stand and demand that this thief leave and not take a thing with him on the way out. When we have these sort of feelings come over us this is the time where we must take a stand. If we have on the whole armor of God this nonsense will not be able to overtake us. If we even have a thought of depression NOW is the time to take that thought into captivity. If we do not walk in and use the authority that the Lord has given us then we will not overcome our enemy. We cannot expect the Lord to do for us what He has already done. He has given us the authority. He has given us the victory. He is now expecting us to walk by faith and use what He has given. He is expecting us by faith to possess that promised land. In this promised land it is flowing with milk and honey. In this promised land is all the blessings of our Lord. The only thing keeping us out is unbelief and not trusting that He has done what He has proclaimed He has.

John146
Apr 20th 2009, 09:14 PM
Now that Christ has been born, died, and resurrected from the dead, not even the Gentiles can claim ignorance. All men are commanded by God to repent and believe the gospel that is available to all peoples of the world. Yet the command of God is not obeyed, not by the Jews, not by Gentiles. Why? Because the command to repent and believe is not the way that we are saved.That is simply not true, Roger. Scripture repeatedly says that one is saved through repentance and faith in Christ.

Luke 7
44And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Acts 20
20And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,
21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 7
9Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


The command, as I have already said, exposes our sins and shows us our great need of a Savior. You said earlier "It is through the law that we have a knowledge of our sin". Which is it, Roger? Is it the law that exposes our sins or the command to repent and believe?


We can try as we will to repent and believe, but apart from God's Sovereign Grace through the gift of saving faith we will not be saved. Scripture does not teach this anywhere.


Salvation is a supernatural act of God given His own through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. We will obey His command to repent and believe once He has worked in us, making us willing.Scripture does not teach this anywhere. Christ commanded sinners to repent and believe the gospel and didn't say "Oh, by the way, only those of you who God makes willing to do this can obey this command.".


But until God does this supernatural work in whosoever He wills, man cannot, in his/her fallen natural state repent and believe. And, again, scripture does not teach this anywhere. Perhaps you can show me where, in the following parable, God makes the publican willing (forces him to be willing) to repent?

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Jesus indicates here that the publican humbled himself. Your doctrine would say that God humbled him and made him willing to repent. But that's not what Jesus taught here. Just as God does not cause or force someone to exalt themselves, He does not cause or force anyone to humble themselves, either. This idea that men are not able to repent of their sins by their own will is foreign to scripture. Christ came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. All people are sinners. He would not call all people to repentance unless all people had the ability to repent.

Can you give me any examples in scripture where God makes someone (causes or forces someone to be) willing to repent and believe?

Partaker of Christ
Apr 21st 2009, 01:24 PM
The Word of God proclaims that He has already given us every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 1:3). What are you going to ask Him for that He hasn't already given? In His grace He has already bestowed upon us every spiritual blessing available. It is simply our duty to walk by faith in order to reap them.

Hi VerticalReality!

Whilst it is very true, that God has 'already' blessed us with every spiritual blessing, we need faith to live it. This is not faith that we drum up from within ourselves, and it is not some intellectual knowledge based faith.

Faith 'comes' by hearing, and hearing the word of God. It does not say by reading the word, but by hearing.

Paul goes on to say this:

Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Paul does not say God said it, so do it. He said that He [Paul] without ceasing prayed, that the Lord would give them the spirit of wisdom and revelation. That the eyes of their understanding would be enlightened.

VerticalReality
Apr 21st 2009, 02:48 PM
Hi VerticalReality!

Hello! :)


Whilst it is very true, that God has 'already' blessed us with every spiritual blessing, we need faith to live it. This is not faith that we drum up from within ourselves, and it is not some intellectual knowledge based faith.

I agree!



Faith 'comes' by hearing, and hearing the word of God. It does not say by reading the word, but by hearing.

Paul goes on to say this:

Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


I agree again! This is why Jesus said on occasion, "He who has ears to hear . . . let him hear."


Paul does not say God said it, so do it. He said that He [Paul] without ceasing prayed, that the Lord would give them the spirit of wisdom and revelation. That the eyes of their understanding would be enlightened.

Well, how about that . . . I agree again! Through our "knowledge" of Him we are made able to walk in the blessings provided. This is not a head knowledge . . . it is a heart knowledge. It's two completely different things to say you believe something with your intellect compared to believing something in your heart. Many folks say they believe God with their intellect, but deep in their hearts they doubt Him.

To know God intimately is what allows us to walk in the blessings He has provided. In order to know Him intimately we must seek Him out in faith. Our heart produces all manner of fruit. If our heart is filled with Him then only the fruit of His Spirit will come forth.

Paul said the following in Ephesians 3 . . .

Ephesians 3:14-19
For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

How is the bolded statement not a contradiction? To know the love of Christ which passes knowledge? How can we know something if it passes knowledge? In the Greek this is speaking of a head knowledge versus a heart knowledge. It's talking about an intellectual knowledge versus an experiential knowledge. Verse 19 could also be read . . .

"to have an experiential knowledge of the love of Christ which passes intellectual knowledge . . . "

If we do not truly in our hearts have a knowledge and understanding of our Savior then we are not going to be able to reap the blessings He has provided. It goes back to Hebrews 11:6 . . .

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

If we are to tap into the grace that the Lord has provided and receive a reward it will be because we are diligently seeking Him by faith.

Thanks for your input, PoC. :thumbsup:

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