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Ri Chasu
Apr 16th 2009, 10:45 PM
We are all granted salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. As it has been explained to me and my understanding is that the godly Jewish people who lived before Christ's birth have salvation by having looked forward to the comming of the Saviour Christ.

Now what about the practicing faithful Jews alive today and ever since Christ died? They do not believe that Jesus was their Saviour, but they are still looking forward to His comming. Would not that make them the same as the Jews who existed before Christ was born?

If God would turn these Jews away for not recognizing who Jesus was, what about the Jewish people B.C. that would not have recognized Jesus either?

amazzin
Apr 16th 2009, 10:51 PM
We are all granted salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. As it has been explained to me and my understanding is that the godly Jewish people who lived before Christ's birth have salvation by having looked forward to the comming of the Saviour Christ.

Now what about the practicing faithful Jews alive today and ever since Christ died? They do not believe that Jesus was their Saviour, but they are still looking forward to His comming. Would not that make them the same as the Jews who existed before Christ was born?

If God would turn these Jews away for not recognizing who Jesus was, what about the Jewish people B.C. that would not have recognized Jesus either?

Jesus death on the cross was not invane. Salvation is in Jesus only. The Bible says that "thosew who call on the name of jesus shall be saved". Jesus said "I am teh way, the truth and the life. No one goes to teh Father except throguh me". Anyone who does not have faith in Christ is hell bound,...Gentiles, jews and others.

As for those Jews before the birth of Christ they were saved through the law. in the sacrifices and in keeping the commandments.

keck553
Apr 16th 2009, 10:54 PM
Torah saved no one. Ever. The path to salvation is faith alone, the only One who can extend the gift of eternal salvation is Yeshua the Messiah, past, present and future. To those saints who died before His atonement their salvation pointed to a future event. To those saints who died after His atonement their salvation pointed to a past event. Yeshua's return isn't about salvation. it's about judgement.

Joh 14:6
(6) Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

If this statement is false, there is no hope for any of us.

On edit, I truely have sympathy for those Jews who reject Messiah because they were presented by Christiantiy with a false Messiah (replacement theology). I humbly leave that in God's hands. But the fact remains we, each of us are accountable for our choices and response to God's call.

sheina maidle
Apr 17th 2009, 12:04 AM
Jesus death on the cross was not invane. Salvation is in Jesus only. The Bible says that "thosew who call on the name of jesus shall be saved". Jesus said "I am teh way, the truth and the life. No one goes to teh Father except throguh me". Anyone who does not have faith in Christ is hell bound,...Gentiles, jews and others.

As for those Jews before the birth of Christ they were saved through the law. in the sacrifices and in keeping the commandments.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

Gentiles, jews and others.
Who are the others?

The Old Testament law was a temporary covenant. It was given to Israel to prepare them for the coming of Christ. (Galatians 3:19-25). It is abolished with Christ's coming (2 Cor. 3:6-17). It was taken away when Christ died (Colossians 2:14-17).

The purpose of the law was to reveal sin and to show man that he is a guilty sinner before God (Romans 3:19-20; 7:12-13; 1 Timothy 1:9-10) The law was not given for salvation...therefore nobody was saved by keeping the law before Christ. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6) People in the OT were "counted righteous" through faith..same as NT believers. Only thing different, OT saints looked "forward" to the cross...we look "back" to the cross. Salvation from Genesis to Revelation is by grace through faith.

The sacrifices of the OT were "shadows" of Christ...they did not save anyone...they simply "covered/appeased" sin temporarily until Christ came. Those who "believed" were declared "righteous".

THOM
Apr 17th 2009, 03:10 AM
We are all granted salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. As it has been explained to me and my understanding is that the godly Jewish people who lived before Christ's birth have salvation by having looked forward to the comming of the Saviour Christ.

Now what about the practicing faithful Jews alive today and ever since Christ died? They do not believe that Jesus was their Saviour, but they are still looking forward to His comming. Would not that make them the same as the Jews who existed before Christ was born?

If God would turn these Jews away for not recognizing who Jesus was, what about the Jewish people B.C. that would not have recognized Jesus either?

The Entirety of SALVATION is believing THE ENTIRE WORD of GOD. . .not just bits a pieces that you and I choose to believe. Anyone who believed on ["THE WORD (Scripture) of GOD, made flesh"] JESUS CHRIST, in the New Testament, had to have believe, IN TOTAL, the Old Testament [THE WRITTEN/RECORDED WORD of GOD]. . .because that is all the [Documented] Scripture they had!

Our biggest problem with Believing THE WORD of GOD, is FIRST and FOREMOST, trying to Define/Interpret/Translate it. . .like GOD didn't know that I had trouble with English, my native language; I took a little French, I speak a little Tagalog; and a little Japanese, etc. But GOD wouldn't allow me to speak in "tongues", because THE COMFORTER revealed to me that I've yet to learn to praise and worship GOD in something that I understand.

But before we get to know THE GOD of All Languages, we go chasing after what language GOD dictated to Moses, David, Solomon, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and James. . .and TOTALLY and COMPLETELY loose site that, "For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Abraham understood GOD from "from Ur of the Chaldees"; and what did Abraham do? He left his daddy's house. . .and began his walk with, "THE LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:...".

Notice, all the Scripture tells us about the audible-ness (Spiritually and/or Physically) of GOD, is that, "THE LORD had said unto Abram...". If you're waiting for someone, anyone (me, for example), to tell you how "THE LORD" will speak to you (provided HE IS your LORD), then you'll be waiting for a long time, because A GREAT PARENT/GOD like GOD, doesn't tell one of Children, to tell one of HIS Chosen ones, what to do, but rather, HE Tell that Chosen one PERSONALLY!

And in order to really be one of GOD'S Chosen ones, here's what you must first be and do, ". . .Here am I...(Ge 22:7,11; 27:1,18; 31:11; 37:13; 46:2; Ex 3:4; 1Sa 3:4-6,8,16; 2Sa 1:7; 15:26; Isa 6:8)".

amazzin
Apr 17th 2009, 03:13 AM
Who are the others?

Those who today do not consider themselves either a Gentile or Jew.

THOM
Apr 17th 2009, 03:30 AM
Those who today do not consider themselves either a Gentile or Jew.

In Scripture, you were either "Jew" or "Gentile". . .there were no, ". . .do not consider themselves either...".

At the risk of seeming and/or coming off as crass, GOD ain't the least bit interested in what you and I "consider" our individual selves to be, unless its as, "GOD be merciful to me a sinner.", in order to become HIS child, "Our Father...".

9Marksfan
Apr 17th 2009, 08:23 AM
Now what about the practicing faithful Jews alive today and ever since Christ died? They do not believe that Jesus was their Saviour, but they are still looking forward to His comming.

No - they are looking forward to a different Messiah, because they have rejected the true Messiah, who has already come. Sounds like you've been exposed to the dual covenant heresy that says that Jews don't need to believe in Christ - great if they do, but not necessary.


Would not that make them the same as the Jews who existed before Christ was born?

As disobedient Jews, yes. Whatever our views of OT Jews, it's clear now that God commands ALL men EVERYWHERE to repent and to believe on the Messiah who HAS come - Paul preached to BOTH Jews and Gentiles - the same message is what both groups need - Acts 4:12.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2009, 08:44 AM
We are all granted salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. As it has been explained to me and my understanding is that the godly Jewish people who lived before Christ's birth have salvation by having looked forward to the comming of the Saviour Christ.

Now what about the practicing faithful Jews alive today and ever since Christ died? They do not believe that Jesus was their Saviour, but they are still looking forward to His comming. Would not that make them the same as the Jews who existed before Christ was born?

If God would turn these Jews away for not recognizing who Jesus was, what about the Jewish people B.C. that would not have recognized Jesus either?

Because of unbelief God concluded that we are all under sin and the only way to God is through faith in Christ. if we who do not have the law do not believe, we will be lost. If those that have the law do not believe they will be lost. There is no difference between us.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

grit
Apr 17th 2009, 01:21 PM
We are all granted salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. As it has been explained to me and my understanding is that the godly Jewish people who lived before Christ's birth have salvation by having looked forward to the comming of the Saviour Christ.

Now what about the practicing faithful Jews alive today and ever since Christ died? They do not believe that Jesus was their Saviour, but they are still looking forward to His comming. Would not that make them the same as the Jews who existed before Christ was born?

If God would turn these Jews away for not recognizing who Jesus was, what about the Jewish people B.C. that would not have recognized Jesus either?
Hi Ri Chasu, and welcome to the board. :wave:

Not meaning to derail the thread, but to shake up our thinking a bit, I think an equally good question that applies to "Can a Jew have salvation?" is, Can there be salvation for anyone who is not a Jew?

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. -Romans 2:28-29, NKJV

Emanate
Apr 17th 2009, 02:05 PM
As for those Jews before the birth of Christ they were saved through the law. in the sacrifices and in keeping the commandments.


No, salvation has always been by faith.

Emanate
Apr 17th 2009, 02:11 PM
Hi Ri Chasu, and welcome to the board. :wave:

Not meaning to derail the thread, but to shake up our thinking a bit, I think an equally good question that applies to "Can a Jew have salvation?" is, Can there be salvation for anyone who is not a Jew?

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. -Romans 2:28-29, NKJV



This is a contextual error. Being Jewish does not save anyone, ever. Nor does beliving in Messiah make a person Jewish. The target audience of this scripture are Jewish people, not gentiles.

Romans 217 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

clearly not addressing gentiles.

BroRog
Apr 17th 2009, 02:37 PM
No, salvation has always been by faith.

Agreed. The author of Hebrews lists several people whom God declared righteous by their faith, e.g. Abel, Noah, Moses, etc. Our theory of salvation must be able to accommodate these folks. :)

Vhayes
Apr 17th 2009, 02:42 PM
No, salvation has always been by faith.
Yep! The Old Testament Jews were saved by their faith in the coming Promise, New Testament believers are saved by their faith in the Promise Who has come.
V

matthew94
Apr 17th 2009, 02:45 PM
Now what about the practicing faithful Jews alive today and ever since Christ died? They do not believe that Jesus was their Saviour, but they are still looking forward to His comming. Would not that make them the same as the Jews who existed before Christ was born?

The BC faithful were waiting for the Messiah who had not yet come. AD Jews are waiting for a Messiah that has come. The first group did not reject Jesus. The second group did. You are right that there is a comparision AND a contrast between the two groups:

Comparison: They are both waiting for the Messiah
Contrast: First group did NOT reject Jesus. Second group DID reject Jesus

The contrast is obviously more important than the comparison when it comes to salvation.

grit
Apr 17th 2009, 06:31 PM
This is a contextual error. Being Jewish does not save anyone, ever. Nor does beliving in Messiah make a person Jewish. The target audience of this scripture are Jewish people, not gentiles.

Romans 217 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

clearly not addressing gentiles.I'm sorry, Emanate, but I can't follow you post due to a lack of specificity. What are you addressing as a contextual error, my post, Ri Chasu's post, or Paul's translated post? Praise from God addresses the heart. :hug:

I probably shouldn't have wandered off-topic from the OP. Sorry.

No one shall enter into salvation from God without God allowing for that person to enter into it.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2009, 06:50 PM
Those who today do not consider themselves either a Gentile or Jew.

In Christ we are neither Jew nor Gentile, that is what we have been taught. Are we not to believe what is taught concerning those in Christ?

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

2 Cor 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

If we are still Jew or Gentile because of what we do then our old man is still alive, we are therefore not a new creature.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

TheAnswer99
Apr 17th 2009, 07:49 PM
The OP brings up an interesting point which is this: pre-Jesus Jews just had to have faith that the Messiah was coming whereas Jews for the past 2000 years had to actually determine whether Jesus IS that Messiah - the modern Jews had it much tougher ha

keck553
Apr 17th 2009, 10:21 PM
If we are still Jew or Gentile because of what we do then our old man is still alive, we are therefore not a new creature.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

How does that reconcile with this?

Act 22:3
(3) "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.

Paul didn't say "I was a Jew" or "I am a new creation". So let's be sure of the context and perspective.

Toymom
Apr 17th 2009, 11:04 PM
The Lord looks at our hearts. Even in the Old Testament there is reference to those who did and said the right things but did not love the Lord. For them, it did not count. What we say and what we do are not as important as if we love the Lord with all of our heart, soul and might.

Salvation itself has different meanings to different people.

What does it mean to you?

Does it just mean that you "go to heaven" when you die?

Jews don't believe in that anyway.

Salvation is Christ in us as our life, faith, hope and everything.
Most Jews do not have Christ in them.
I do though. I am a Jew - born and raised - and I am a born again Christian.
So, I am saved.

As far as the whole what happens after we die - I don't really know and I don't think the Bible is really clear about it. But, Romans ch. 11 clearly tells us that the Lord did not abandon the Jews. Romans 11:26 says that all Israel will be saved. How, exactly who,when and exactly what that means I don't know. But, I trust in the Lord that it will happen.

Does that mean that being Jewish saves people? Well, do they have Christ in them? No. So, they are losing out. They are not enjoying Christ in this age. Will they in the next age? It would seem so, but I really don't know in what respect that would be.

So, should you pray for Jewish people? Sure - just like you would for anyone else. Should you preach the gospel to them? If the Lord leads you to, then you should just like you would to anyone else.

BroRog
Apr 17th 2009, 11:26 PM
The OP brings up an interesting point which is this: pre-Jesus Jews just had to have faith that the Messiah was coming whereas Jews for the past 2000 years had to actually determine whether Jesus IS that Messiah - the modern Jews had it much tougher ha


One could say, if I understand Hebrews 11 correctly, that those who lived BC needed only believe that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Even those with such a limited knowledge of God can find salvation.

djh22
Apr 18th 2009, 05:05 PM
We are all granted salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. As it has been explained to me and my understanding is that the godly Jewish people who lived before Christ's birth have salvation by having looked forward to the comming of the Saviour Christ.

Now what about the practicing faithful Jews alive today and ever since Christ died? They do not believe that Jesus was their Saviour, but they are still looking forward to His comming. Would not that make them the same as the Jews who existed before Christ was born?

If God would turn these Jews away for not recognizing who Jesus was, what about the Jewish people B.C. that would not have recognized Jesus either?
I 'spose it depends on their conception of salvation.Do Jews believe in salvation in the same way as Christians ?

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2009, 06:22 PM
How does that reconcile with this?

Act 22:3
(3) "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.

Paul didn't say "I was a Jew" or "I am a new creation". So let's be sure of the context and perspective.

What you say is correct but do not forget that Paul also said that he gave all that up in order to follow Christ.

Phil 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phil 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phil 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phil 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phil 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul became a new creature, leaving behind those things he gave up for christ.

Before Christ we are Jew and Gentile, after christ we are no longer Jew or Gentile. There must be a change.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Apr 20th 2009, 10:59 AM
One could say, if I understand Hebrews 11 correctly, that those who lived BC needed only believe that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Even those with such a limited knowledge of God can find salvation.

It actually says that "He is" - so it's the I AM - the God revealed in the Scriptures that one must believe in - not just in the existence of "a deity".

BroRog
Apr 20th 2009, 07:33 PM
It actually says that "He is" - so it's the I AM - the God revealed in the Scriptures that one must believe in - not just in the existence of "a deity".

Granted. At the same time, I believe that the author of Hebrews assumes that only one God exists and doesn't feel the need to make that distinction.

amazzin
Apr 20th 2009, 07:39 PM
Ff

I don't disagree with one bit. I was speaking in the context of the Jew who sees "Jew or Gentile". As for others I am refrring to Muslims who do not see themselves as either


In Christ we are neither Jew nor Gentile, that is what we have been taught. Are we not to believe what is taught concerning those in Christ?

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

2 Cor 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

If we are still Jew or Gentile because of what we do then our old man is still alive, we are therefore not a new creature.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 20th 2009, 08:52 PM
What you say is correct but do not forget that Paul also said that he gave all that up in order to follow Christ.

Firstfruits

Understood, but Paul made this statement AFTER his conversion.

Johnboy
Apr 21st 2009, 12:03 AM
No - they are looking forward to a different Messiah, because they have rejected the true Messiah, who has already come. Sounds like you've been exposed to the dual covenant heresy that says that Jews don't need to believe in Christ - great if they do, but not necessary.



As disobedient Jews, yes. Whatever our views of OT Jews, it's clear now that God commands ALL men EVERYWHERE to repent and to believe on the Messiah who HAS come - Paul preached to BOTH Jews and Gentiles - the same message is what both groups need - Acts 4:12.
Have you ever read Zechariah 12 & 13

Johnboy
Apr 21st 2009, 12:11 AM
I 'spose it depends on their conception of salvation.Do Jews believe in salvation in the same way as Christians ?
The jews are god's people we came in through Christ but the jews have to realise what being the children of God means. At this point in time they don't but that will change. God has never given up on his people they have at the moment as through many times through scripture given up on him. Zechariah 12 and 13 says they will change.

9Marksfan
Apr 21st 2009, 08:20 AM
Have you ever read Zechariah 12 & 13

Yes - in what way do these chapters negate what I have said?

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 11:26 AM
Ff

I don't disagree with one bit. I was speaking in the context of the Jew who sees "Jew or Gentile". As for others I am refrring to Muslims who do not see themselves as either

Thanks for the clarification Amazzin,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 11:32 AM
Understood, but Paul made this statement AFTER his conversion.

Well that would be because before his conversion he was not following Christ, he was living according to the law, which as he said he was blameless in doing so. Paul however gave it all up in order to follow Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 21st 2009, 08:46 PM
Well that would be because before his conversion he was not following Christ, he was living according to the law, which as he said he was blameless in doing so. Paul however gave it all up in order to follow Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Once more. Paul said this after he accepted Christ as his saviour. In the present tense. Not "I was a Jew," "but I am a Jew."

Emanate
Apr 21st 2009, 09:44 PM
I wonder if the people who decry referring to Jewish and Gentile believers because there is "neither Jew nor Greek" apply this logic also to "no male or female"

Emanate
Apr 21st 2009, 09:50 PM
Before Christ we are Jew and Gentile, after christ we are no longer Jew or Gentile. There must be a change.


Galatians 3:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=28&version=9&context=verse)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I suppose Saul was no longer male either?

keck553
Apr 21st 2009, 10:16 PM
I wonder if the people who decry referring to Jewish and Gentile believers because there is "neither Jew nor Greek" apply this logic also to "no male or female"

A few states in the union have done just that.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 07:38 AM
I wonder if the people who decry referring to Jewish and Gentile believers because there is "neither Jew nor Greek" apply this logic also to "no male or female"

It simply means that in Christ we are all one, there is no difference between us, whether we have the law or we do not have the law makes no difference to God unless we come to God through Christ we are all sinners. Through Christ we are cleansed and made whole.

We are one in the body of Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 07:41 AM
I wonder if the people who decry referring to Jewish and Gentile believers because there is "neither Jew nor Greek" apply this logic also to "no male or female"

I take that you are not therefore a new creature in Christ if you do not accept that in Christ there is neither jew no Gentile, or is it that you do not understand how it can be so?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 07:45 AM
Once more. Paul said this after he accepted Christ as his saviour. In the present tense. Not "I was a Jew," "but I am a Jew."

And all that he had as a Jew he has given up all for Christ.

Phil 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

What are the things that are behind which Paul speaks of?

Firstfruits

sheina maidle
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:02 PM
And all that he had as a Jew he has given up all for Christ.

Phil 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

What are the things that are behind which Paul speaks of?

Firstfruits
Everything which precedes Philippians 3:13, verses 5-9 in particular:

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Philippians 3:3-9)

Paul retained his ethnicity as a Jew, but those things he held in esteem as a Jew, he counted as loss (he called them "but dung" [skubalon] )

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4657. skubalon

neuter of a presumed derivative of 1519 and 2965 and 906; what is thrown to the dogs, i.e. refuse (ordure):--dung.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:11 PM
Everything which precedes Philippians 3:13, verses 5-9 in particular:

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Philippians 3:3-9)

Paul retained his ethnicity as a Jew, but those things he held in esteem as a Jew, he counted as loss (he called them "but dung" [skubalon] )

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4657. skubalon

neuter of a presumed derivative of 1519 and 2965 and 906; what is thrown to the dogs, i.e. refuse (ordure):--dung.

Thanks Sheina Maidle,

According to scripture what would it mean for Paul to hold on to those things that were behind?

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:14 PM
And all that he had as a Jew he has given up all for Christ.

Phil 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

What are the things that are behind which Paul speaks of?

Firstfruits

We all leave the worldly things behind if we are in 100% submission to Messiah. That should include the benefits from man-made religion. Whether it's the man-made tenents of Judaism or the man-made tenets of Christiandom or paganism. That is what Paul is talking about.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:26 PM
We all leave the worldly things behind if we are in 100% submission to Messiah. That should include the benefits from man-made religion. Whether it's the man-made tenents of Judaism or the man-made tenets of Christiandom or paganism. That is what Paul is talking about.

Thankfully we do not have to guess what Paul was talking about regarding what he gave up.

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Philippians 3:3-9)

God bless you!

Firstfruits

sheina maidle
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:31 PM
Thanks Sheina Maidle,

According to scripture what would it mean for Paul to hold on to those things that were behind?

Firstfruits
That would mean "putting confidence in the flesh"

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:33 PM
I'm not guessing FF. You know I'm not. What possible use would a worldly concept or thing have in the Kingdom of Heaven? What possible tidbit of human reasoning or human wisdom could possibly mingle with God's wisdom?

What Paul is saying is that he turned his back on the common to walk in God's terms of Holiness. You can't serve both.

Emanate
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:01 PM
I take that you are not therefore a new creature in Christ if you do not accept that in Christ there is neither jew no Gentile, or is it that you do not understand how it can be so?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


No, I am not understanding how there is no difference between males and females.

Possibly the scripture refers to one way of salvation and not that men can wear pretty dresses.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:03 PM
I'm not guessing FF. You know I'm not. What possible use would a worldly concept or thing have in the Kingdom of Heaven? What possible tidbit of human reasoning or human wisdom could possibly mingle with God's wisdom?

What Paul is saying is that he turned his back on the common to walk in God's terms of Holiness. You can't serve both.

Are you saying that the following is common?

If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

These are the things he has given up are you agreeing that as Paul has said; and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:04 PM
I also do not understand the logic that postulates that "neither jew nor gentile" translates as "should act like a Gentile".

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:09 PM
Are you saying that the following is common?

If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

These are the things he has given up are you agreeing that as Paul has said; and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yes. Torah is not in his content here. You're confusing God's Word with Rabbinic law.

Have you given up all the pagan derived Christian man made tradtions and counted them as dung FF?

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:25 PM
Yes. Torah is not in his content here. You're confusing God's Word with Rabbinic law.

Have you given up all the pagan derived Christian man made tradtions and counted them as dung FF?

How would that change the fact that even if I were doing so and gave it up, I would still be a sinner as are all that have law, as God has said we are?

It is Paul that said what he had an what he gave up.

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Philippians 3:3-9)

Paul suffered the loss of all things that he could win Christ.

Pauls righteouss was of the law, it was not of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:31 PM
Pauls righteouss was of the law, it was not of God.


Wrong, Saul had no righteousness apart from Messiah. He did indeed have a false sense of self righteousness.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:38 PM
Wrong, Saul had no righteousness apart from Messiah. He did indeed have a false sense of self righteousness.

As I said his righteousness was of the law, it was self righteousness.

Rom 10:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:04 PM
FF, what does God say to do if you love Him?

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:00 PM
FF, what does God say to do if you love Him?

According to the following this is what we who follow Christ have been commanded.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:28 PM
According to the following this is what we who follow Christ have been commanded.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Tell me how to love someone without using what the law defined. Just one example of loving one another.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:48 PM
I also do not understand the logic that postulates that "neither jew nor gentile" translates as "should act like a Gentile".

I think the answer is best exemplified in this quote from Galatians.


11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he [began] to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how [is it that] you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? 15 "We [are] Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Both Paul and Peter were living "like the Gentiles". Paul asks Peter why he compelled the Gentiles to live like Jews, since they both agree that living like a Jew gets you no where with respect to gaining God's favor. And though each man was a Jew "by nature" they both lived like Gentiles. It wasn't until Peter decided to hold himself aloof, as if he didn't believe what he and Paul already knew to be true, that Paul outed Peter in front of everyone.

keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:57 PM
Of course they were talking about the cultural ways that didn't profane Torah. For example there is no gain for me to celebrate a man made Jewish tradition, like Channukka or Purim or some Jewish national holliday, unless of course I lived in Israel. If I lived in Israel I wouldn't be compelled to celebrate the 4th of July.

None of this has anything to do with obeying God's commands.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 10:28 PM
Of course they were talking about the cultural ways that didn't profane Torah. For example there is no gain for me to celebrate a man made Jewish tradition, like Channukka or Purim or some Jewish national holliday, unless of course I lived in Israel. If I lived in Israel I wouldn't be compelled to celebrate the 4th of July.

None of this has anything to do with obeying God's commands.

The topic, as I understand it, centers around a Jew's opportunity for salvation. The question seems to imply something special and unique about being a Jew, especially since no one ever asks whether a Frenchman, a German, or a Japanese person can find salvation. And it implies that being a Jew might be some kind of impediment to salvation.

My quotation from Galatians shows that both Peter and Paul thought that being Jewish was substantially different than being something else. After all, the comparison draws on the fact that being a Gentile simply means that a person isn't Jewish: are you Jewish or not? I'm either a Jew, or I'm something else. And the conventional term for being "something else" is the term "Gentile."

Paul took offense at Peter's behavior, which amounted to, first living as a Gentile for awhile, and then acting aloof when certain men from James came to visit. And he questions Peter about it saying, "Why do you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?" This question automatically assumes that living like a Gentile is much different than living like a Jew and that either out of embarrassment, shame, or fear, Peter decided to act as if he was living like a Jew all along.

I believe the question, "can a Jew have salvation?" makes the same assumption. That is, it asks whether there might be something uniquely Jewish that inhibits or becomes an impediment to finding salvation?

In the case of Jesus and the Apostles, it would seem the answer is no. The Apostles were Jewish and eventually found salvation as God opened their eyes, which is not unique to being Jewish apparently. God opens the eyes of anyone he wants, and a person's Jewishness, whatever it entails, is no obstacle for him.

keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 10:43 PM
Following God's commands has nothing to do with being Jewish. I don't know how else to tell you that truth.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 11:08 PM
Following God's commands has nothing to do with being Jewish. I don't know how else to tell you that truth.

That's okay. I understood you the first time. And I wasn't disagreeing with you or anything like that. I was just trying to get the topic back on track.

keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 11:16 PM
Understood. Please forgive my interruption.

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