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THOM
Apr 18th 2009, 05:22 PM
Is there a connection between all of Scripture and the following 6 questions?

1) What happened between Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning GOD Created the heaven and the earth.") and Genesis 1:2a ("And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep.")?

2) Was Adam really ONLY "the first man...(1Cor. 15:45)"?

3) What was GOD'S purpose for Adam in Genesis 2 ("And THE LORD GOD formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. . .And THE LORD GOD planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there HE put the man whom HE had formed. . .And THE LORD GOD took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. . .")?

4) Who was Cain's Wife ("And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he built a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.")?

5) Who are "the sons of GOD (Gen. 6:2,4;Job 1:6;2:1;38:7)"?

6) Who are "the daughters of men (Gen. 6:2,4)"?

If there's something we've yet to discover in the first six Chapter of Genesis, which could possibly mean that just maybe there's something/ Some Things we're missing in the other 65 and 3/4 Books, huh?

BroRog
Apr 18th 2009, 05:58 PM
Is there a connection between all of Scripture and the following 6 questions?

1) What happened between Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning GOD Created the heaven and the earth.") and Genesis 1:2a ("And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep.")?

2) Was Adam really ONLY "the first man...(1Cor. 15:45)"?

3) What was GOD'S purpose for Adam in Genesis 2 ("And THE LORD GOD formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. . .And THE LORD GOD planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there HE put the man whom HE had formed. . .And THE LORD GOD took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. . .")?

4) Who was Cain's Wife ("And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he built a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.")?

5) Who are "the sons of GOD (Gen. 6:2,4;Job 1:6;2:1;38:7)"?

6) Who are "the daughters of men (Gen. 6:2,4)"?

If there's something we've yet to discover in the first six Chapter of Genesis, just maybe there's something/ Some Things we're missing in the other 65 and 3/4 Books, huh?

I'm not sure what significance you place on the fact that certain things are "missing", as in "some things were missing". We know from Peter's epistle that we have everything we need to know in order to live Godly lives.

RogerW
Apr 18th 2009, 06:11 PM
I'm not sure what significance you place on the fact that certain things are "missing", as in "some things were missing". We know from Peter's epistle that we have everything we need to know in order to live Godly lives.

Greetings BroRog,

FYI - I've had this discussion with Thom in the link below. It seems he is convinced that Adam was not the first human being God created. He says the accounts in Gen 1 & 2 show that God's creation did not begin without form and void, but that it fell. Just thought you might be interested in understanding Thom's opinion before spending lots of time. Blessings - RW

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=158478&highlight=Cain+wife

THOM
Apr 18th 2009, 06:41 PM
I'm not sure what significance you place on the fact that certain things are "missing", as in "some things were missing". We know from Peter's epistle that we have everything we need to know in order to live Godly lives.

BroRog, please read what I wrote, and not what you think it meant. The question is: "Is There A Connection We're Missing?"; l didn't state (nor do I state) that "the fact that certain things are 'missing'" and/or "as in 'some things were missing'". My purpose is to put our minds together and see if we have missed something? If you, and any others believe that we haven't missed anything, then so be it. I respect your belief. But please don't dismiss my legitimate questions just because you refuse to, and/or can't answer, them, without generalizing.

BTW, Peter wrote Two Epistles; what part of any one or all are you referring to?


Greetings BroRog,

FYI - I've had this discussion with Thom in the link below. It seems he is convinced that Adam was not the first human being God created. He says the accounts in Gen 1 & 2 show that God's creation did not begin without form and void, but that it fell. Just thought you might be interested in understanding Thom's opinion before spending lots of time. Blessings - RW

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=158478&highlight=Cain+wife

Hello Roger,
If you're going to tell someone that you've "had this discussion" with me, then at least tell them how you left off with your part of "this discussion" before even an attempt by you at answering the following questions:

We only assume that "the daughters of men" are from the ungodly line of Cain. Scripture never states, nor even imply this.
In Genesis 1:26-30, GOD Creates Mankind; These were persons just like the Adam of Genesis 2:7; But Genesis 1:26-30 is not The Adam that we're all familiar with.
GOD tells these persons (Gen. 1:26-30), "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." Now note the underlined portions, and answer the following questions:
1) How do you "replenish the earth" from "the Garden of Eden"?
2) How do you "subdue" the earth from "the Garden of Eden"?
3) How do you "have dominion over the fish of the sea" from "the Garden of Eden", which were [probably] hundreds of miles from "the sea"?
Now why would GOD tell the Adam of Genesis 2 all this stuff, if HE's about to put Adam into a Garden "to dress it and keep it"?

And note the word, "earth"; but when we come to Genesis 2:5, we're introduced to the word "field".

Do you see how you didn't even give "this discussion with Thom" a chance?

BroRog
Apr 18th 2009, 06:47 PM
Greetings BroRog,

FYI - I've had this discussion with Thom in the link below. It seems he is convinced that Adam was not the first human being God created. He says the accounts in Gen 1 & 2 show that God's creation did not begin without form and void, but that it fell. Just thought you might be interested in understanding Thom's opinion before spending lots of time. Blessings - RW

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=158478&highlight=Cain+wife

Thanks for the heads up. Unless I misread the OP in this thread, the topic seems to have expanded to the rest of the Bible, i.e. the other 65-3/4 books.

My point was this. Even though the Bible does not contain every fact known to human kind, the Bible is complete according to its purpose. As you may know, it isn't trying to tell us everything we need to know about everything. :)

RogerW
Apr 18th 2009, 06:51 PM
Hello Roger,
If you're going to tell someone that you've "had this discussion" with me, then at least tell them how you left off with your part of "this discussion" before even an attempt by you at answering the following questions:

We only assume that "the daughters of men" are from the ungodly line of Cain. Scripture never states, nor even imply this.
In Genesis 1:26-30, GOD Creates Mankind; These were persons just like the Adam of Genesis 2:7; But Genesis 1:26-30 is not The Adam that we're all familiar with.
GOD tells these persons (Gen. 1:26-30), "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." Now note the underlined portions, and answer the following questions:
1) How do you "replenish the earth" from "the Garden of Eden"?
2) How do you "subdue" the earth from "the Garden of Eden"?
3) How do you "have dominion over the fish of the sea" from "the Garden of Eden", which were [probably] hundreds of miles from "the sea"?
Now why would GOD tell the Adam of Genesis 2 all this stuff, if HE's about to put Adam into a Garden "to dress it and keep it"?

And note the word, "earth"; but when we come to Genesis 2:5, we're introduced to the word "field".

Do you see how you didn't even give "this discussion with Thom" a chance?

Thom, I am sorry you feel I did not answer your questions. Because I believe I answered all of them. I have no desire to repeat the same discussion we've already had. If you will go back to the other discussion without a preconcieved opinion that there are two separate creation accounts, then you might be able to see that I have shown you why your assumptions are in error. It might help you to begin with how I have shown you that the earth did not "become" formless and void, but that it "began" formless and void. If you can see this then perhaps you can put away the notion that Adam and Eve were not the first humans that God created. That's a good place to start!

Many Blessings,
RW

Julian
Apr 18th 2009, 06:57 PM
It appears that the readers are mistaking your final sentence in the OP. You, as you clarified, are talking about humans not necessarily gleaning all the information given in the scriptures (WE are missing) - rather than the scriptures missing something we need to know (things were missing.

Your wording is correct in writing "we're" missing. Had you written "things were missing" then I would be different. Now if everyone proceeds with this explanation it might help get back to answering your question, even if it is kinda vague.

Since we are not perfect, I'm sure there are some things we are missing in our understanding of the scriptures. But as we study to show ourselves approved unto God - we can gain more understanding and wisdom and miss less and less as we invest time in searching the scriptures. It's hard to tell if your post is open ended to get us thinking - or if you want specific answers to the six numbered questions. You may want to clarify.

Julian
Apr 18th 2009, 07:01 PM
Maybe you guys could take the discussion back to that post. And if not, ask a moderator to move this one onto the end of that one so the same discussion isn't going on in two places.

THOM
Apr 18th 2009, 07:13 PM
Thom, I am sorry you feel I did not answer your questions. Because I believe I answered all of them. I have no desire to repeat the same discussion we've already had. If you will go back to the other discussion without a preconcieved opinion that there are two separate creation accounts, then you might be able to see that I have shown you why your assumptions are in error. It might help you to begin with how I have shown you that the earth did not "become" formless and void, but that it "began" formless and void. If you can see this then perhaps you can put away the notion that Adam and Eve were not the first humans that God created. That's a good place to start!

Many Blessings,
RW

Whoa RW, slow your role! Where did I ever state, that there were "two separate creation accounts"? Come on now RW, where is this "the earth did not 'become' formless and void, but that it 'began' formless and void", that you're now claiming to "have shown" me? If your answer is as decisive and compelling, as you're inferring, then repeat it.

If you're being truthful when you state, "I have no desire to repeat the same discussion we've already had", then so be it; I most definitely respect and accept that. If you had "shown" me that which you're now claiming, then I wouldn't have brought this discussion to the forum. . .but because it is now obvious that you didn't, nor haven't. . .so then here we are.

markedward
Apr 18th 2009, 07:16 PM
1) What happened between Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning GOD Created the heaven and the earth.") and Genesis 1:2a ("And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep.")?Nothing "happened" between Genesis 1.1 and 1.2. There is zero Scriptural evidence of anything "happening" between them. [EDIT: Well, I'll correct this statement. The only thing there is Scriptural evidence of taking place before the formation of the earth following the initial act of creation is that God created the heavenly host; Job 38.7.] I've heard people claim that Satan "ruined" the earth between the two verses, and that Genesis 1 was God's "reconstruction" of the earth (called "ruin-reconstruction" creation), but this is flatout in contradiction with Moses' words in the Torah, when he explicitly states that God created the heavens and the earth in "six days". (Exodus 20.11, Exodus 31.17)

This means that Genesis 1.1 (the initial act of creation) is included in the six days in which God forms the earth, and this leaves no room for a mysterious time-frame in which Satan allegedly "ruined" the earth before the six days of creation. Now, this does not exclude the idea that the angelic beings (including Satan) were created before God began to form the earth, but the text is completely absent of any indication that the earth was "ruined" in between God's initial act of creating the heavens and the earth, and the statement that the earth was "without form and void".


2) Was Adam really ONLY "the first man...(1Cor. 15:45)"?Trying to claim otherwise would only serve to contradict the "plain meaning" of the verse. Every genealogy in the Bible that goes back far enough always places Adam as the first man, including the genealogy of Christ. There is not a single human being depicted in the Bible as living before Adam did.


3) What was GOD'S purpose for Adam in Genesis 2 ("And THE LORD GOD formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. . .And THE LORD GOD planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there HE put the man whom HE had formed. . .And THE LORD GOD took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. . .")?To overlook the earth (Genesis 1.26), to have children and fill the earth (Genesis 1.28), and to have a relationship with God (inferred from Genesis 2-3; Adam's and Eve's sins against God severed this relationship and caused their spiritual deaths).


4) Who was Cain's Wife ("And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he built a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.")?The most common answer you'll get is that it was one of Adam's and Eve's other children. Genesis 5.4 says that Adam had other sons and daughters; the text does not necessarily exclude them from having been born before Cain was exiled, so people will generally say it was a daughter of Adam (a sister of Cain) that he married.


5) Who are "the sons of GOD (Gen. 6:2,4;Job 1:6;2:1;38:7)"?Contextually, the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are men. Here is a rundown of Genesis 6:


Men multiply and fill the earth (6.1)
God's Spirit will not "contend" with man forever (6.3)
Man's life-time limit is set for 120 years (6.3)
There were mighty men in that time, called nephilim (6.4)
God saw man's wickedness (6.5)
God was sorry he made man (6.6)
But Noah was a righteous man (6.8-9)

Contextually, the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are men, not angelic beings; nothing in the text refers to angels, everything in the text refers to men.

Contextually, the "sons of God" in Job appear to be angels. Whenever they gather before God, Satan appears with them, indicating that it is a gathering of the heavenly host. Satan's statement that he was going "to and fro on the earth" seems to indicate that they are not presently "on the earth"; the natural alternative to consider would be heaven, which would, again, indicate that this is a gathering of the heavenly host. Job 38.7 specifically depicts the "sons of God" in this context as living before God began the formation of the earth.

So, it depends entirely on the context:

If we read the Torah, the "sons of God" consistently refer to Godly men, not angelic beings. Passages to take in context of each other: Genesis 6 (again, not the specific statement that God makes, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever"), Deuteronomy 14.1 and Deuteronomy 32.8.

Since Job is not a part of the Torah, and there is no real evidence that the Torah's author (Moses) ever wrote the book of Job, there is no reason that we should assume Torah and Job must use the phrase "sons of God" in the same manner. Other books also shows that the phrase "sons of God" can be used to refer to Godly men and not angelic beings (Hosea 1.10, Matthew 5.9, Luke 20.36, Romans 8.19, Romans 9.26, Galatians 3.26) so this makes it all the more possible/probable that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 refers to men.

Especially note Romans 8.14: "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." This is directly in line with the statements made between Genesis 6.1-2, in which the "sons of God" are spoken of, then immediately following in 6.3 God says "My Spirit will not contend with man forever." This, I believe, is a strong point of evidence that the "sons of God" of Genesis 6 are man who are "led by the Spirit of God", and God is lamenting that "My Spirit will not contend with man forever", which is immediately followed by a description of violent, unGodly men.


6) Who are "the daughters of men (Gen. 6:2,4)"?The phrasing for this is so obvious, I don't think it even needs to be "interpreted". It says there are "men", and that these are their "daughters". It's simply referring to women.

THOM
Apr 18th 2009, 07:23 PM
Nothing "happened" between Genesis 1.1 and 1.2. There is zero Scriptural evidence of anything "happening" between them.

[EDIT: Well, I'll correct this statement. The only thing there is Scriptural evidence of taking place before the formation of the earth following the initial act of creation is that God created the heavenly host; Job 38.7.]


Thanks; You're getting there.;)

RogerW
Apr 18th 2009, 07:28 PM
Whoa RW, slow your role! Where did I ever state, that there were "two separate creation accounts"? Come on now RW, where is this "the earth did not 'become' formless and void, but that it 'began' formless and void", that you're now claiming to "have shown" me? If your answer is as decisive and compelling, as you're inferring, then repeat it.

If you're being truthful when you state, "I have no desire to repeat the same discussion we've already had", then so be it; I most definitely respect and accept that. If you had "shown" me that which you're now claiming, then I wouldn't have brought this discussion to the forum. . .but because it is now obvious that you didn't, nor haven't. . .so then here we are.

#18 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2023483&postcount=18) #24 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2023824&postcount=24) #31 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2024077&postcount=31)

without form - from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:--confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

void - from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:--emptiness, void.

darkness - from 2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness:--dark(-ness), night, obscurity.

2821 - a primitive root; to be dark (as withholding light); transitively, to darken:--be black, be (make) dark, darken, cause darkness, be dim, hide.

Many Blessings,
RW

THOM
Apr 18th 2009, 07:48 PM
#18 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2023483&postcount=18) #24 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2023824&postcount=24) #31 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2024077&postcount=31)

without form - from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:--confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

void - from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:--emptiness, void.

darkness - from 2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness:--dark(-ness), night, obscurity.

2821 - a primitive root; to be dark (as withholding light); transitively, to darken:--be black, be (make) dark, darken, cause darkness, be dim, hide.

Many Blessings,
RW

THE GOD of ORDER, THE GOD that is NOT "the author of confusion", went on and "Created the Heavens and the earth", with "the earth", being and/or, all of sudden, becoming a state waste; a desolation, a worthless thing, confusion, empty place, nothing, thing of nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness (which is what "without form/formless and void" means, according to the definitions of your own choosing.), and in total "darkness (misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness)", all done by GOD. . .THE SAME ONE WHO IS THE "GOD IS LIGHT, and in HIM is no darkness at all."???

And, if we're to believe you, all this happens in just Genesis 1:1; because you're defining words in Genesis 1:2a, right?

RogerW
Apr 18th 2009, 07:58 PM
THE GOD of ORDER, THE GOD that is NOT "the author of confusion", went on and "Created the Heavens and the earth", with "the earth", being and/or, all of sudden, becoming a state waste; a desolation, a worthless thing, confusion, empty place, nothing, thing of nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness (which is what "without form/formless and void" means, according to the definitions of your own choosing.), and in total "darkness (misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness)", all done by GOD. . .THE SAME ONE WHO IS THE "GOD IS LIGHT, and in HIM is no darkness at all."???

And, if we're to believe you, all this happens in just Genesis 1:1; because you're defining words in Genesis 1:2a, right?

Thom, I'm simply copying and pasting here.

God did create something out of nothing, but it wasn't until God spoke "light" into existance (remember God said He saw the illumination and it was good) dividing the light from the darkness that His creation begins to take form and beauty. The light symbolizes illumination, happiness, and clarity. The earth did not become a desolation or worthless thing, it began a desolation or worthless thing until God spoke and there was light, clarity, morning, brightness.

Light - from 215; illumination or (concrete) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.):--bright, clear, + day, light (-ning), morning, sun.

215 - a primitive root; to be (causative, make) luminous (literally and metaphorically):--X break of day, glorious, kindle, (be, en-, give, show) light (-en, -ened), set on fire, shine.

Many Blessings,
RW

BroRog
Apr 18th 2009, 08:07 PM
BroRog, please read what I wrote, and not what you think it meant.

Frankly, I'm not sure I understand the difference.


My purpose is to put our minds together and see if we have missed something?

What are you looking for? Information? Explanations? And why do you think anything would be missing?

As far as I know, connections don't go missing. Rather, connections are relationships between known ideas. The Biblical authors draw connections between ideas and present them for us to see.

BroRog
Apr 18th 2009, 08:14 PM
Is there a connection between all of Scripture and the following 6 questions?

1) What happened between Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning GOD Created the heaven and the earth.") and Genesis 1:2a ("And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep.")?

2) Was Adam really ONLY "the first man...(1Cor. 15:45)"?

3) What was GOD'S purpose for Adam in Genesis 2 ("And THE LORD GOD formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. . .And THE LORD GOD planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there HE put the man whom HE had formed. . .And THE LORD GOD took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. . .")?

4) Who was Cain's Wife ("And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he built a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.")?

5) Who are "the sons of GOD (Gen. 6:2,4;Job 1:6;2:1;38:7)"?

6) Who are "the daughters of men (Gen. 6:2,4)"?

If there's something we've yet to discover in the first six Chapter of Genesis, which could possibly mean that just maybe there's something/ Some Things we're missing in the other 65 and 3/4 Books, huh?

It still isn't clear to me what you are asking. You say there is something yet to discover in Genesis. You cite examples which seem to indicate that you want to know things that we can't possibly know, like the identity of Cain's wife.

If you are asking a question in order to make a point, why not simply make your point?

Julian
Apr 18th 2009, 08:29 PM
Nothing "happened" between Genesis 1.1 and 1.2. There is zero Scriptural evidence of anything "happening" between them. [EDIT: Well, I'll correct this statement. The only thing there is Scriptural evidence of taking place before the formation of the earth following the initial act of creation is that God created the heavenly host; Job 38.7.]
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (Heb. Tohu), he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth became without form (Heb. Tohu), and void ; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Something happened...

THOM
Apr 18th 2009, 08:45 PM
THE GOD of ORDER, THE GOD that is NOT "the author of confusion", went on and "Created the Heavens and the earth", with "the earth", being and/or, all of sudden, becoming a state waste; a desolation, a worthless thing, confusion, empty place, nothing, thing of nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness (which is what "without form/formless and void" means, according to the definitions of your own choosing.), and in total "darkness (misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness)", all done by GOD. . .THE SAME ONE WHO IS THE "GOD IS LIGHT, and in HIM is no darkness at all."???

And, if we're to believe you, all this happens in just Genesis 1:1; because you're defining words in Genesis 1:2a, right?


Thom, I'm simply copying and pasting here.


God did create something out of nothing, but it wasn't until God spoke "light" into existance (remember God said He saw the illumination and it was good) dividing the light from the darkness that His creation begins to take form and beauty. The light symbolizes illumination, happiness, and clarity. The earth did not become a desolation or worthless thing, it began a desolation or worthless thing until God spoke and there was light, clarity, morning, brightness.

Light - from 215; illumination or (concrete) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.):--bright, clear, + day, light (-ning), morning, sun.

215 - a primitive root; to be (causative, make) luminous (literally and metaphorically):--X break of day, glorious, kindle, (be, en-, give, show) light (-en, -ened), set on fire, shine.

Many Blessings,
RW


Hmmm, got you thinking now, right? That's what I was hoping for!:D

No RW, you want to go, "ex nihilo", and, congratulation! That's shows your scholarship-ness, but I'm still just a "K.I.S.S." kinda child of our DADDY ("ABBA FATHER") IN HEAVEN (HE didn't pick me for my complexity; but rather, for my simplicity. . .as in "a child"); and so it is, that's one of the first things that we miss about THE ETERNAL GOD. "Light" doesn't just "symbolizes illumination, happiness, and clarity"; "LIGHT IS" just because "GOD IS", and "GOD IS LIGHT, and in HIM is no darkness at all.". . .and if you first understand that "GOD IS LIGHT, and in HIM is no darkness at all.", then you'll begin to understand why GOD IS "THE INVISIBLE GOD (Col. 1:15)".

And believe it or not, "Light" was not the FIRST thing that HE Created. . .but rather, it (The FIRST thing that GOD Created) was, according to Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning Created the Heavens and the Earth". Now then, what was the very FIRST THING, according to that verse, that GOD Created, that we've possibly missed already?



Frankly, I'm not sure I understand the difference.
What are you looking for? Information? Explanations? And why do you think anything would be missing?

Why don't you start by merely answering all six of the questions in the initial post of this thread?:idea:

[quote}As far as I know, connections don't go missing. Rather, connections are relationships between known ideas. The Biblical authors draw connections between ideas and present them for us to see.[/quote]

If you'd just ask the questions on your mind, instead of trying to figure out where I may and/or may not be coming from, we'll get somewhere. . .Trust me!:idea:

Let's deal with my six questions okay?

BroRog
Apr 18th 2009, 09:00 PM
Let's deal with my six questions okay?

I would seem to me that you already know the answer to the questions you ask. Why not make your point now?

THOM
Apr 18th 2009, 09:01 PM
It still isn't clear to me what you are asking. You say there is something yet to discover in Genesis. You cite examples which seem to indicate that you want to know things that we can't possibly know, like the identity of Cain's wife. If you are asking a question in order to make a point, why not simply make your point?

Has my tenure here in this forum cause you to believe what you just stated; or are you just being obtuse? What part of my 6 questions are that complicated for you to provide an answer to one or more and/or all of them? Is it because you're attempting to read between lines, when you've yet to master reading [what's only on the] lines?

Answer the questions Brother, or don't, or get out of the way; either way, I won't allow you to bait me any further.


But since you brought it up: Please show Scripture verifying/implying/stating that Cain's wife was even related to him prior to her becoming "his wife"?

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 18th 2009, 09:18 PM
Is there a connection between all of Scripture and the following 6 questions?

1) What happened between Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning GOD Created the heaven and the earth.") and Genesis 1:2a ("And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep.")?

2) Was Adam really ONLY "the first man...(1Cor. 15:45)"?

3) What was GOD'S purpose for Adam in Genesis 2 ("And THE LORD GOD formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. . .And THE LORD GOD planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there HE put the man whom HE had formed. . .And THE LORD GOD took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. . .")?

4) Who was Cain's Wife ("And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he built a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.")?

5) Who are "the sons of GOD (Gen. 6:2,4;Job 1:6;2:1;38:7)"?

6) Who are "the daughters of men (Gen. 6:2,4)"?

If there's something we've yet to discover in the first six Chapter of Genesis, which could possibly mean that just maybe there's something/ Some Things we're missing in the other 65 and 3/4 Books, huh?

1. I see no reason to believe that anything happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Even if something did happen, we cannot know it since Scripture does not speak of it. I would, however, like to bring in another argument here. In implying that 'something' happened between verse 1 and 2 of Genesis 1, you are implying the existence of time. Now I think we can both agree that time is not an eternal thing - God created time. If time were eternal, God would be subject to it since He did not create it. How, then, can you expect something to happen in between those two verses when time itself was not even in existence yet?

Be that as it may, nothing can be inferred from those first two verses of the Bible, one way or the other.

2. The Bible calls Adam the first man; I see no reason to question that. Genesis 1 tells the story of Creation. There is no foundation whatsoever to believe that Adam was not the first man.

3. According to the NASB, God put Adam in the Garden to cultivate it and keep it. I see no problem there.

4. From the data that Scripture provides, logic compels us to conclude that Cain married his sister. Though we might find this questionable today, we should not forget that Abraham himself married his half-sister and relative. One cannot reject the only logical explanation within the boundaries of Scripture based on the fact that one finds that explanation repulsive or undesirable.

5. This is one of the most controversial passages of Scripture. Some say they are angels, others say they are descendants of Cain. Both make interesting arguments for their position. Job refers to angels as 'sons of God'...but even still, there is no reason to believe anything to be 'missing'. Unless you want to find something missing and so change the story so that something is missing.

6. The daughters of men are commonly believed to be descendants of Cain. I don't see any reason to believe otherwise, but in any case it is a reference to human beings.

Are you leading us down the path of the GAP-theory? The idea that the earth was once populated with a race that God then punished, who became disembodied spirits, who are now known as demons? Are you promoting the belief that there is a difference between fallen angels and demons? I ask because this is the only context in which I could place the questions you have asked.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 18th 2009, 09:20 PM
But since you brought it up: Please show Scripture verifying/implying/stating that Cain's wife was even related to him prior to her becoming "his wife"?

A moot point, since you cannot prove she was not. Any such claim is speculation at best. At least the claim that Cain married his sister has Scriptural logic behind in the fact that Adam and Eve's sons and daughters were apparently the only people populating the earth.

BroRog
Apr 18th 2009, 09:22 PM
Has my tenure here in this forum cause you to believe what you just stated; or are you just being obtuse? What part of my 6 questions are that complicated for you to provide an answer to one or more and/or all of them? Is it because you're attempting to read between lines, when you've yet to master reading [what's only on the] lines?

Answer the questions Brother, or don't, or get out of the way; either way, I won't allow you to bait me any further.


But since you brought it up: Please show Scripture verifying/implying/stating that Cain's wife was even related to him prior to her becoming "his wife"?

Okay, sorry. I bow out.

THOM
Apr 18th 2009, 09:24 PM
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (Heb. Tohu), he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth became without form (Heb. Tohu), and void ; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Something happened...

Thanks Julian. . .just that Scripture alone ("he created it not in vain") is one to be included, but instead of bringing it to me, our COMFORTER/TEACHER (THE HOLY SPIRIT/GHOST), brought it to you.

(As an aside, I'll be out there somewhere in the USA (your location), just to kick your butt:D;):D;) What? Do you think I'm going to try and whip DADDY, because HE showed it to you and not me. . .I ain't dat dumb!:pray:

But seriously so, Just "Stay strong in THE LORD...(Eph. 6:1ff)", Keep taking ALL of Scripture in ITS TOTALITY. We always miss something when we don't. . .and some folks get kinda ticked off with other folks who don't miss what they did.:D

THOM
Apr 18th 2009, 09:39 PM
A moot point, since you cannot prove she was not. Any such claim is speculation at best. At least the claim that Cain married his sister has Scriptural logic behind in the fact that Adam and Eve's sons and daughters were apparently the only people populating the earth.

But, according to your rationalization, her having to have been his relative is not "speculation at best"?

Scripture, SPECIFICALLY, tells us that Abraham married his half sister; yet this same Scripture, no where, no where, no where, tells us that Cain married his [WHOLE] Sister. . .nor anyone remotely related to him. . .yet we've bought into that "speculation", hook, line, and sinker, huh?

BTW, What other Scripture do you base your own "speculation" on?

And please show me what Scriptures you base your "speculation" on, regarding your word, "apparently", as in, "the fact that Adam and Eve's sons and daughters were apparently the only people populating the earth"?

Why address your concern about what you believe me to be in "speculation" about, if you didn't even bother to attempt to try and answer one of my initial six questions in this Thread?

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 18th 2009, 09:49 PM
But, according to your rationalization, her having to have been his relative is not "speculation at best"?

Scripture, SPECIFICALLY, tells us that Abraham married his half sister; yet this same Scripture, no where, no where, no where, tells us that Cain married his [WHOLE] Sister. . .nor anyone remotely related to him. . .yet we've bought into that "speculation", hook, line, and sinker, huh?

BTW, What other Scripture do you base your own "speculation" on?

And please show me what Scriptures you base your "speculation" on, regarding your word, "apparently", as in, "the fact that Adam and Eve's sons and daughters were apparently the only people populating the earth"?

Why address your concern about what you believe me to be in "speculation" about, if you didn't even bother to attempt to try and answer one of my initial six questions in this Thread?
The Bible quite clearly outlines the creation process, where in six days everything is created. We see that Adam - literally 'man' - was created, all the animals are brought to him for him to name, but the end conclusion is that he is still alone. God then creates woman, with whom Adam sins. They are sent away from the garden and the rest is history. If you do not see that as enough proof that Adam and Eve were the only people on earth, I cannot help you.

The obvious implication is that anybody Cain married had to have been his sister, since nobody else was around on the earth. This is not speculation but pure logic at work. You speculate that something went on between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, after which you speculate that Adam was not the first human being. You then build on those two speculations to imply that Adam and Eve were not the only human beings, after which you speculate that Cain didn't marry his sister. The above logic that says Cain married his sister is derived directly from what the Bible does say.

In all truthfulness, any story can be made up by such speculations. The Creation story, taken at face value, tells things like it is with no reason to believe otherwise.

By the way, you did not yet answer my question concerning the GAP-theory and the relating belief concerning the Pre-Adamite race, disembodied spirits, and fallen angels not being the same as demons...

THOM
Apr 18th 2009, 11:05 PM
1. I see no reason to believe that anything happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Even if something did happen, we cannot know it since Scripture does not speak of it.

Let's just change "we" into "you", okay?


I would, however, like to bring in another argument here. In implying that 'something' happened between verse 1 and 2 of Genesis 1, you are implying the existence of time. Now I think we can both agree that time is not an eternal thing - God created time. If time were eternal, God would be subject to it since He did not create it. How, then, can you expect something to happen in between those two verses when time itself was not even in existence yet?Smart. That's the FIRST thing that THE ETERNAL GOD Created: Time. Thank you for answering my question: "Now then, what was the very FIRST THING, according to that verse (Genesis 1:1), that GOD Created, that we've possibly missed already?"

But before you get too excited, HE DIDN'T Create time after (nor did I state and/or nor imply that), ". . .the Heavens and the Earth.", but BEFORE IT! Don't try and get ahead of me here.


Be that as it may, nothing can be inferred from those first two verses of the Bible, one way or the other.Au contraire, you just "inferred", from verse one alone, that the very FIRST thing that GOD Created, was TIME. So how can you truthfully make the above statement?


2. The Bible calls Adam the first man; I see no reason to question that. Genesis 1 tells the story of Creation. There is no foundation whatsoever to believe that Adam was not the first man.Here's the ONLY thing, barring any other Scripture, states about "Adam", "first man", positioning, etc: "The first man Adam was made a living soul...(1Cor. 15:45)"; and I purposely left out the last part of that Scripture just to see, if you'd see why Paul uses it that way.


3. According to the NASB, God put Adam in the Garden to cultivate it and keep it. I see no problem there.Is this right before, or right after, "GOD said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth..."???
Now according to what you just stated, "According to the NASB, God put Adam in the Garden to cultivate it and keep it.", right?

Now my question is, why would THE ALL-KNOWING "God put Adam in the Garden to cultivate it and keep it", if HE (GOD) want this Adam to "replenish the earth", not to mention, venture miles, and miles, miles, away just to "have dominion over the fish of the sea", let along any and "every living thing that moves upon the earth..."?



4. From the data that Scripture provides, logic compels us to conclude that Cain married his sister.Please show me this Scripture.:idea:


5. This is one of the most controversial passages of Scripture. Some say they are angels, others say they are descendants of Cain. Both make interesting arguments for their position. Job refers to angels as 'sons of God'...but even still, there is no reason to believe anything to be 'missing'. Unless you want to find something missing and so change the story so that something is missing.The following is just not so: "Job refers to angels as 'sons of God'"; and it seems you were hesitant to even write this as such yourself.

At best, it states that when "the sons of GOD" went to "Church", Satan, went to Church with them too. . .and because they didn't know how to get him out of their midst, Job was the ONLY one GOD could truthfully Brag to our "adversary" about!

In other words, Job got his butt kicked because "the sons of GOD" were too ignorant and/or stupid (just like today) to know who and what they had dominion over.

Yet, in the midst of all of it, prior to Job's friends arriving on the scene, Job (who's not even ever declared as one of "the sons of GOD". . .but rather, a "servant", was able to declare, "though HE slay me, yet will I trust him...(Job 13:15)"


6. The daughters of men are commonly believed to be descendants of Cain. I don't see any reason to believe otherwise, but in any case it is a reference to human beings.Are you sure you really mean, "daughters of men are commonly believed", and not according to what THE MOST HIGH GOD, WHO states, ". . .the foolishness of GOD, is wiser than man...", is trying to show you? Huh?


Are you leading us down the path of the GAP-theory?Why don't you try rereading every word in my initial post of this Thread?
I see it everyday, 'ats' and 'ags' kick your butt, because you believe me to be the enemy and them to be someone that you should just keep on turning "the other cheek" for. Been there, done that.

I have not gone outside of Scripture since my first post in this Forum. I don't have to. All my answers are contained right there in my GOD'S WORD.



The idea that the earth was once populated with a race that God then punished, who became disembodied spirits, who are now known as demons? Are you promoting the belief that there is a difference between fallen angels and demons? I ask because this is the only context in which I could place the questions you have asked.According to your, "I ask because this is the only context in which I could place the questions you have asked."; you might just try answering the question and/or question before you you go trying to put them into some perceived "context" of your's that just ain't there.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 18th 2009, 11:21 PM
From what I can tell, you are not out to discuss but to make a point. I might be wrong, but I'll be honest and say that I'm not interested in finding out.

Have a nice day, my friend.

THOM
Apr 18th 2009, 11:36 PM
From what I can tell, you are not out to discuss but to make a point. I might be wrong, but I'll be honest and say that I'm not interested in finding out.

Have a nice day, my friend.

Okay, since you didn't bother trying to answer either of and/or any of the questions, but determined what you perceived me as trying "to make", I get it.

VerticalReality
Apr 19th 2009, 02:50 AM
This one is closed pending moderator review . . .

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