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luv2laugh
Apr 20th 2009, 03:25 PM
Hi Everyone!! I am new here. I am in the process of trying to be more mature in my spirituality. I am praying daily and reading my bible most mornings and a little with my husband at night. I also started a prayer book, which I have been thoroughly enjoying using.

Ok, I'll get to the point. As I am reading the Bible I have SOOO many questions. I came to one on Friday that was quite a stumbling block to me.

Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth. There are some people standing here who, before they die, will see the Son of Man coming with his kingdom."

This seems pretty straightforward to me, yet we know it is not true. The second coming has not yet occurred. It says in 16:27 he will come "with his Father's Glory and with his angels." I tried to search this verse and many believed it had to do with the resurrection (which 16:27 does not seem to describe and also does not seem to fit with the SOME people standing here, because that happened only days later, I think). Many others said it referred to the destruction of Israel. I do not understand that though because it seems to refer to him coming with his Kingdom.

This is a big thing that I don't understand here and any wisdom you have on this topic would be MUCH appreciated. It is hard for me to keep reading when I don't know what that means honestly. Though, I have continued reading, I don't want to be blind in my faith or shallow in my understanding of the Bible.

Thanks so much in advance!!

Francine

Kahtar
Apr 20th 2009, 03:36 PM
Compare Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27 and you will probably understand it.
He was not actually referring to His own Second coming, but rather the coming of His kingdom in power, which it did, and which many of those standing there with Him saw before they died.

luv2laugh
Apr 20th 2009, 03:57 PM
Thanks Kahtar! I just read Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27 in two versions and it does make more sense that they are not talking about his own second coming, but his kingdom coming in power.

Is there anywhere you can direct me to get more information on what the coming of his kingdom in power means exactly in history and if the Early Christians understood that and expected that. Also if there are any other references in scripture to it.

By the coming of his kingdom in power that is the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus correct?

Kahtar
Apr 20th 2009, 05:31 PM
Is there anywhere you can direct me to get more information on what the coming of his kingdom in power means exactly in history and if the Early Christians understood that and expected that. Also if there are any other references in scripture to it.Best thing to do is look up all the verses and text that deal with the kingdom. A Concordance helps alot with that, or perhaps a Topical Bible.


By the coming of his kingdom in power that is the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus correct?Uh, no. With a bit of study, you will find that His kingdom actually came when He did, it is now here, and it is coming.
The destruction of the temple had more to do with the nation of Israel rejecting their Messiah when He came. Further, the temple now exists in us. We ARE the temple, and the Holy Spirit dwells within our 'Holy of holies'.

NotMyOwn
Apr 20th 2009, 05:36 PM
Some believe Jesus was talking about His coming transfiguration which is a picture of what His coming eternal kingdom is like. See 2 Peter 1:16.

Others like me believe He was talking about His post-ressurection church.

markedward
Apr 20th 2009, 06:11 PM
Christ consistently used the phrase "coming of the Son of Man" or "when the Son of Man comes" to refer to the eschatological "second" coming.

Christ did use the phrase "the Son of Man" in non-eschatological contexts, but whenever he referred to the event of the "coming of the Son of Man", it was always in an eschatological context.

Matthew 16.27-28 says that the Coming would involve (a) Christ, (b) coming in the glory of the Father, (c) with angels, (d) the judgment. Many people claim that Matthew 16.28 was fulfilled in the transfiguration, but this is drastically ripping verse 16.28 out of the context defined in 16.27. The transfiguration did involve elements of (a) Christ and (b) God's glory, but nowhere were elements (c) angels and (d) the judgment seen in this event.

Likewise, while some above believe it was referring to the post-resurrection church, I also believe this is incorrect, again for the plain facts that Christ was explicitly talking about coming (c) with angels to execute (d) the judgment. Christ wasn't prophesying just the about the establishment of the church... he was prophesying about the judgment too.

Both groups, in my opinion, arbitrarily dismiss the statement about the angels and the judgment, and both groups ignore the consistency in which Christ refers to the "coming of the Son of Man" as an eschatological event.

luv2laugh
Apr 20th 2009, 06:31 PM
MarkEdward, then what do you think Christ meant when he said that some of those people standing there would not die before he returned?

-SEEKING-
Apr 20th 2009, 07:04 PM
Maybe this will help. I got this form the ESV Study Bible.

"Some of the Twelve who were standing there with Jesus in Caesarea Philippi would live to see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. This predicted event has been variously interpreted as referring to: (1) Jesus' transfiguration (17:1–8); (2) his resurrection; (3) the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost; (4) the spread of the kingdom through the preaching of the early church; (5) the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in a.d. 70; or (6) the second coming and final establishment of the kingdom. The immediate context seems to indicate the first view, the transfiguration, which immediately follows (see also Mark 9:2–10; Luke 9:28–36). There, “some” of Jesus' disciples “saw” what Jesus will be like when he comes in the power of his kingdom. This interpretation is also supported by 2 Pet. 1:16–18, where Peter equates Jesus' “glory” with his transfiguration, of which Peter was an eyewitness. At the same time, interpretations (2), (3), and (4) are also quite possible, for they are all instances where Jesus “came” in the powerful advance of his kingdom, which was partially but not yet fully realized. Some interpreters think that Jesus is more generally speaking of many or all of the events in views (2) through (4). View (5) is less persuasive because the judgment on Jerusalem does not reflect the positive growth of the kingdom. View (6) is unacceptable, for it would imply that Jesus was mistaken about the timing of his return."

RogerW
Apr 20th 2009, 07:26 PM
Hi Everyone!! I am new here. I am in the process of trying to be more mature in my spirituality. I am praying daily and reading my bible most mornings and a little with my husband at night. I also started a prayer book, which I have been thoroughly enjoying using.

Ok, I'll get to the point. As I am reading the Bible I have SOOO many questions. I came to one on Friday that was quite a stumbling block to me.

Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth. There are some people standing here who, before they die, will see the Son of Man coming with his kingdom."

This seems pretty straightforward to me, yet we know it is not true. The second coming has not yet occurred. It says in 16:27 he will come "with his Father's Glory and with his angels." I tried to search this verse and many believed it had to do with the resurrection (which 16:27 does not seem to describe and also does not seem to fit with the SOME people standing here, because that happened only days later, I think). Many others said it referred to the destruction of Israel. I do not understand that though because it seems to refer to him coming with his Kingdom.

This is a big thing that I don't understand here and any wisdom you have on this topic would be MUCH appreciated. It is hard for me to keep reading when I don't know what that means honestly. Though, I have continued reading, I don't want to be blind in my faith or shallow in my understanding of the Bible.

Thanks so much in advance!!

Francine

Greetings Francine,

Welcome to the community!

I believe this passage and the corresponding passages found in Mk 9:1 and Lu 9:27 refer to Christ's kingdom coming with power on the day of Pentecost. The word "see" is not so much reference to vision or seeing with the eye, but rather perceiving with the mind and heart, understanding, to know. In other words there were some standing there who would not die until they see the kingdom of God come with Power through the Holy Spirit. It wasn't until the Holy Spirit was liberally poured out on Pentecost that the kingdom of God received Power from on high just as Christ had promised.

Lu 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Many Blessings,
RW

markedward
Apr 20th 2009, 10:52 PM
MarkEdward, then what do you think Christ meant when he said that some of those people standing there would not die before he returned?Since you directly asked, I think that is grounds for me to directly answer: everytime Christ spoke about the "coming of the Son of Man", it was what most people call an "end-times" event, but I believe he also consistently placed this event within the lifetime of His generation.

From -SEEKING-'s post above, I believe Christ was prophesying a first-century fulfillment of:


(6) the second coming and final establishment of the kingdom.

which coincided with


(5) the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in a.d. 70

which resulted in an ever-growing Kingdom of God. But I'm not allowed to defend this point, and I'm sure some people here would tear my posts apart anyway (especially without my ability to defend this point), I can't elaborate on this.

decrumpit
Apr 20th 2009, 11:44 PM
which resulted in an ever-growing Kingdom of God. But I'm not allowed to defend this point, and I'm sure some people here would tear my posts apart anyway (especially without my ability to defend this point), I can't elaborate on this.

Not asking you to elaborate, but what is this known as? What is this theory called?

Partaker of Christ
Apr 21st 2009, 12:15 AM
Greetings Francine,

Welcome to the community!

I believe this passage and the corresponding passages found in Mk 9:1 and Lu 9:27 refer to Christ's kingdom coming with power on the day of Pentecost. The word "see" is not so much reference to vision or seeing with the eye, but rather perceiving with the mind and heart, understanding, to know. In other words there were some standing there who would not die until they see the kingdom of God come with Power through the Holy Spirit. It wasn't until the Holy Spirit was liberally poured out on Pentecost that the kingdom of God received Power from on high just as Christ had promised.

Lu 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger!

It could be Pentecost, but I tend to think it is more likely to be the Transfiguration.

Matt 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Matt 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matt 16:26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
Matt 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

They were all there at Pentecost.

cajunman4life
Apr 21st 2009, 12:19 AM
They were all there at Pentecost.

Judas Iscariot was absent from the Pentecost (having either hung himself or fell headfirst in a field and "burst asunder in the midst").

Just pointing out they were not all there ;)

Johnboy
Apr 21st 2009, 12:21 AM
Hi Everyone!! I am new here. I am in the process of trying to be more mature in my spirituality. I am praying daily and reading my bible most mornings and a little with my husband at night. I also started a prayer book, which I have been thoroughly enjoying using.

Ok, I'll get to the point. As I am reading the Bible I have SOOO many questions. I came to one on Friday that was quite a stumbling block to me.

Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth. There are some people standing here who, before they die, will see the Son of Man coming with his kingdom."

This seems pretty straightforward to me, yet we know it is not true. The second coming has not yet occurred. It says in 16:27 he will come "with his Father's Glory and with his angels." I tried to search this verse and many believed it had to do with the resurrection (which 16:27 does not seem to describe and also does not seem to fit with the SOME people standing here, because that happened only days later, I think). Many others said it referred to the destruction of Israel. I do not understand that though because it seems to refer to him coming with his Kingdom.

This is a big thing that I don't understand here and any wisdom you have on this topic would be MUCH appreciated. It is hard for me to keep reading when I don't know what that means honestly. Though, I have continued reading, I don't want to be blind in my faith or shallow in my understanding of the Bible.

Thanks so much in advance!!

Francine
There was the transfiguration where the disciples with christ saw a vision of the future kingdom and John also saw a vision of the kingdom in revelations

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 21st 2009, 01:00 AM
There was the transfiguration where the disciples with christ saw a vision of the future kingdom and John also saw a vision of the kingdom in revelations

Bingo ! Good reply !

cajunman4life
Apr 21st 2009, 03:43 AM
There was the transfiguration where the disciples with christ saw a vision of the future kingdom and John also saw a vision of the kingdom in revelations

I'd tend to agree with this viewpoint. I don't believe that Christ was talking about His second coming because of Mark 13:32

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

How could Jesus honestly tell His disciples that some of them would live to see His second coming if only the Father knows the day and the hour? I suppose one could make the argument "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30). I guess that's why we have these discussions eh?

markedward
Apr 21st 2009, 03:47 AM
How could Jesus honestly tell His disciples that some of them would live to see His second coming if only the Father knows the day and the hour?Christ not knowing the "day or hour" isn't even remotely the same as him indeed knowing the general time-frame. How else could Christ claim that "this generation shall not pass away until all these things take place" when he referred to the events leading up and including his coming?

The "day and hour" is a very specific point in time, according to Christ, only God knows the "day and hour". But this doesn't mean Christ doesn't know the general time-frame was supposed to be "this generation" (being roughly forty years), and "some standing here shall not taste death (again, implying a single group of people's remaining lifetime, which would be roughly equal to a single "generation" of time).

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 04:07 AM
Hi Roger!

It could be Pentecost, but I tend to think it is more likely to be the Transfiguration.

Matt 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Matt 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matt 16:26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
Matt 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

They were all there at Pentecost.

Hi Partaker,

If Christ was speaking of the transfiguration then only three of them would have understood the Son of Man coming in His kingdom "with power". The reason I favor Pentecost is because Mk 9:1 adds "with power"... "there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." The kingdom did not come with power at the transfiguration, but it did come with power after the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost.

Many Blessings,
RW

kay-gee
Apr 21st 2009, 04:12 AM
Right on RogerW

all te best...

cajunman4life
Apr 21st 2009, 04:18 AM
Christ not knowing the "day or hour" isn't even remotely the same as him indeed knowing the general time-frame. How else could Christ claim that "this generation shall not pass away until all these things take place" when he referred to the events leading up and including his coming?

The "day and hour" is a very specific point in time, according to Christ, only God knows the "day and hour". But this doesn't mean Christ doesn't know the general time-frame was supposed to be "this generation" (being roughly forty years), and "some standing here shall not taste death (again, implying a single group of people's remaining lifetime, which would be roughly equal to a single "generation" of time).

Excellent point. :hmm:

THOM
Apr 21st 2009, 04:33 AM
Hi Everyone!! I am new here. I am in the process of trying to be more mature in my spirituality. I am praying daily and reading my bible most mornings and a little with my husband at night. I also started a prayer book, which I have been thoroughly enjoying using.

Ok, I'll get to the point. As I am reading the Bible I have SOOO many questions. I came to one on Friday that was quite a stumbling block to me.

Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth. There are some people standing here who, before they die, will see the Son of Man coming with his kingdom."

This seems pretty straightforward to me, yet we know it is not true. The second coming has not yet occurred. It says in 16:27 he will come "with his Father's Glory and with his angels." I tried to search this verse and many believed it had to do with the resurrection (which 16:27 does not seem to describe and also does not seem to fit with the SOME people standing here, because that happened only days later, I think). Many others said it referred to the destruction of Israel. I do not understand that though because it seems to refer to him coming with his Kingdom.

This is a big thing that I don't understand here and any wisdom you have on this topic would be MUCH appreciated. It is hard for me to keep reading when I don't know what that means honestly. Though, I have continued reading, I don't want to be blind in my faith or shallow in my understanding of the Bible.

Thanks so much in advance!!

Francine

Excellent question Francine (my oldest biological sister's name:D. . .who stands about 4'10'', but still thinks she's 10'4'').

Could JESUS have been referring to, "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb.2:9)"?

I'm not really sure about the Translation of The Scripture that you've quoted, but according to the Old Reliable KJV, it states, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Did you notice the phrase, "taste of death"? And then there's the parallel passage from Luke 9:27, which uses the phrase "taste of death", as well.

And most certainly we should look at the following passage, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. (John 8:51-52)"

You do know that when JESUS CHRIST saved you, along with everything else, it means that you never ever never have to "taste death" yourself?
You and I may go to "sleep" Francine (which is what I'm going to do in about an hour from now). . .but we never ever never get to experience death.

Do you remember when JESUS told HIS Disciples that "Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.", and they didn't understand/know what HE was talking about? Same same!

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 21st 2009, 01:17 PM
Hi Partaker,

If Christ was speaking of the transfiguration then only three of them would have understood the Son of Man coming in His kingdom "with power". The reason I favor Pentecost is because Mk 9:1 adds "with power"... "there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." The kingdom did not come with power at the transfiguration, but it did come with power after the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger! Been a while for me here, for I just don't have the 'extra' time like a use to find....

Quick thought here, what if Jesus was inferring the 'with Power' to Himself, meaning that with the transfiguration in view six days later, He displayed the true nature of who He is to Peter, James and John?

Not arguing the thought of Pentecost, but the context seems to be sore thumb to me that needs to be strongly considered....

As John the Baptist proclaimed, the Kingdom of God is in hand, that of Jesus has come to the world -- yet the world rejects Him --- and we then learn that at Pentecost His Spirit dwells within all His believers - the spiritual kingdom -- with a future earthly kingdom yet to come... as Jesus taught His disciples to pray... Thy kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven.

So just thinking that the OP question addresses the future present, that Jesus is God and that He displays a glimpse of who He is to come to a few of His disciples.

Hope you and your family are doing well....

Partaker of Christ
Apr 21st 2009, 02:15 PM
Hi Partaker,

If Christ was speaking of the transfiguration then only three of them would have understood the Son of Man coming in His kingdom "with power". The reason I favor Pentecost is because Mk 9:1 adds "with power"... "there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." The kingdom did not come with power at the transfiguration, but it did come with power after the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger!

But, but, but:D

Mark 9:1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Jesus did not say that they would see 'power', but that the Kingdom of God, that came with power.

I simply cannot think of the Kingdom of God, coming without power.

Also, all accounts go on to speak of the transfiguration.

Teke
Apr 21st 2009, 03:25 PM
Hi Everyone!! I am new here. I am in the process of trying to be more mature in my spirituality. I am praying daily and reading my bible most mornings and a little with my husband at night. I also started a prayer book, which I have been thoroughly enjoying using.

Ok, I'll get to the point. As I am reading the Bible I have SOOO many questions. I came to one on Friday that was quite a stumbling block to me.

Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth. There are some people standing here who, before they die, will see the Son of Man coming with his kingdom."

This seems pretty straightforward to me, yet we know it is not true. The second coming has not yet occurred. It says in 16:27 he will come "with his Father's Glory and with his angels." I tried to search this verse and many believed it had to do with the resurrection (which 16:27 does not seem to describe and also does not seem to fit with the SOME people standing here, because that happened only days later, I think). Many others said it referred to the destruction of Israel. I do not understand that though because it seems to refer to him coming with his Kingdom.

This is a big thing that I don't understand here and any wisdom you have on this topic would be MUCH appreciated. It is hard for me to keep reading when I don't know what that means honestly. Though, I have continued reading, I don't want to be blind in my faith or shallow in my understanding of the Bible.

Thanks so much in advance!!

Francine

Since the Transfiguration occurs immediately after this, that is likely what it refers to.

Teke
Apr 21st 2009, 03:55 PM
Mark 9:1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Jesus did not say that they would see 'power', but that the Kingdom of God, that came with power.

I simply cannot think of the Kingdom of God, coming without power.

Also, all accounts go on to speak of the transfiguration.

Indeed, just as David accumulated his forces (or power) before he came into his kingdom. After which he established a new order for the priests.

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 04:39 PM
Hi Roger! Been a while for me here, for I just don't have the 'extra' time like a use to find....

Quick thought here, what if Jesus was inferring the 'with Power' to Himself, meaning that with the transfiguration in view six days later, He displayed the true nature of who He is to Peter, James and John?

Not arguing the thought of Pentecost, but the context seems to be sore thumb to me that needs to be strongly considered....

As John the Baptist proclaimed, the Kingdom of God is in hand, that of Jesus has come to the world -- yet the world rejects Him --- and we then learn that at Pentecost His Spirit dwells within all His believers - the spiritual kingdom -- with a future earthly kingdom yet to come... as Jesus taught His disciples to pray... Thy kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven.

So just thinking that the OP question addresses the future present, that Jesus is God and that He displays a glimpse of who He is to come to a few of His disciples.

Hope you and your family are doing well....


Hi Roger!

But, but, but:D

Mark 9:1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Jesus did not say that they would see 'power', but that the Kingdom of God, that came with power.

I simply cannot think of the Kingdom of God, coming without power.

Also, all accounts go on to speak of the transfiguration.

Hi Rbg & Partaker,

Good to hear from you again Rbg, I and my family are well, thank you for asking. Partaker...whaddayamean but but but :rofl:

Honestly, to both of you, I am not dogmatic about this at all. I hear what your saying and why. Could even be the right answer...I dunno!!!

Christ certainly came into this world with all power and authority. But while Christ was on earth His kingdom, although established with the universal church did not see much growth. It wasn't until the HS was poured out that 3,000 souls entered into the kingdom of God after only one sermon. Prior to HS we find a few people coming into the kingdom of God even though the Greatest Preacher, having all power and authority from the Father had come in the flesh. We really don't find the Kingdom of God coming in full power until Pentecost, and that my friends is my only arguement.

Partaker, this is gonna be one of those times where translations may influence our thinking.

KJV Mr 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Now His disciples (less Judas) were all present at Pentecost to understand, perceive, or to know (see) the Holy Spirit poured out. Jesus had ascended up into heaven and for all intents and purposes nothing had changed, everything remained the same. Until they understood what it meant to be indwelt with the Power from above. Truly seeing does not speak of a visible kingdom coming in power, for the Kingdom of God is a Spiritual kingdom. The Kingdom of God in its power of the Holy Spirit is not a kingdom that comes with observation, or outward show in this world. For in the present age the Kingdom of God coming with the power of the Holy Spirit is within.

Lu 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

I believe this is the Kingdom of God that Christ promised they would understand, perceive, know (see) before they die. When the Kingdom of God is complete, then Christ will return in great power just as He promised.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 04:48 PM
There is one more point I should have made. Those standing there were not only His disciples, because Christ had called people unto Him with His disciples also. Not all of those standing there would understand, perceive, or know the Kingdom of God with power before they died.

Mr 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Apr 21st 2009, 05:35 PM
Christ certainly came into this world with all power and authority. But while Christ was on earth His kingdom, although established with the universal church did not see much growth. It wasn't until the HS was poured out that 3,000 souls entered into the kingdom of God after only one sermon. Prior to HS we find a few people coming into the kingdom of God even though the Greatest Preacher, having all power and authority from the Father had come in the flesh. We really don't find the Kingdom of God coming in full power until Pentecost, and that my friends is my only arguement.


KJV Mr 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Now His disciples (less Judas) were all present at Pentecost to understand, perceive, or to know (see) the Holy Spirit poured out. Jesus had ascended up into heaven and for all intents and purposes nothing had changed, everything remained the same. Until they understood what it meant to be indwelt with the Power from above. Truly seeing does not speak of a visible kingdom coming in power, for the Kingdom of God is a Spiritual kingdom. The Kingdom of God in its power of the Holy Spirit is not a kingdom that comes with observation, or outward show in this world. For in the present age the Kingdom of God coming with the power of the Holy Spirit is within.

Lu 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

I believe this is the Kingdom of God that Christ promised they would understand, perceive, know (see) before they die. When the Kingdom of God is complete, then Christ will return in great power just as He promised.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hey Roger :)

I agree with some of what you've put forth. But I believe we need to see this in a relational way. IOW the church coming along after the Bridegroom.

Just as His third day Resurrection is a greater sign of His divinity than is His Transfiguration. So is Pentecost a greater sign (as the resurrection/raising up of His priesthood) than the transfigurations by baptism.

Prior to Pentecost believers weren't coming together as they did in such unity on the day of Pentecost IMHO.

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 06:01 PM
Hey Roger :)

I agree with some of what you've put forth. But I believe we need to see this in a relational way. IOW the church coming along after the Bridegroom.

Just as His third day Resurrection is a greater sign of His divinity than is His Transfiguration. So is Pentecost a greater sign (as the resurrection/raising up of His priesthood) than the transfigurations by baptism.

Prior to Pentecost believers weren't coming together as they did in such unity on the day of Pentecost IMHO.

Hi Teke,

Heck we might just be overthinking this whole thing. Maybe all Christ is telling us is that some of those standing there will enter the Kingdom of God with power from the Word and Holy Spirit before they die. Those who are born again from power from on high will understand, perceive, know the power of God, having been born again from above before our lives on earth are over. Is He simply saying some of you will be born again, but not all of you? :idea:

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Apr 21st 2009, 10:40 PM
Hi Rbg & Partaker,

Good to hear from you again Rbg, I and my family are well, thank you for asking. Partaker...whaddayamean but but but :rofl:


Roger!

It is my impersonation of a goat.
The sheep go 'yea, yea', and the goat's go 'but, but, but' :D

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 22nd 2009, 12:15 PM
Roger!

It is my impersonation of a goat.
The sheep go 'yea, yea', and the goat's go 'but, but, but' :D

Ohhh my.... I hope not a Goat.... :saint:

Teke
Apr 22nd 2009, 01:39 PM
Hi Teke,

Heck we might just be overthinking this whole thing. Maybe all Christ is telling us is that some of those standing there will enter the Kingdom of God with power from the Word and Holy Spirit before they die. Those who are born again from power from on high will understand, perceive, know the power of God, having been born again from above before our lives on earth are over. Is He simply saying some of you will be born again, but not all of you? :idea:

Many Blessings,
RW

Yes, it could be experiential as well. ie. the parable of the ten virgins.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

luv2laugh
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:30 PM
I think a huge thanks goes out to all of you who responded! I don't have a concrete answer, but I have so much information on this topic and also the complexity of the scripture. I also feel like its not a halting point for me. I am really glad I found this community. It has already been a blessing to me.

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