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manichunter
Apr 21st 2009, 12:37 AM
Can a believer be secure and find security in their knowledge?

I am not by any means saying that this replaces the security we should find solely in our Lord. I am talking about having confidence in the knowledge that what we know so far as the truth and nothing but the truth.

I believe something differently about knowledge. I believe knowledge should be a journey of discovery that is living and growing in prospective and revelation. Hence, I conclude that I can never personaly be secure in my knowledge. On this journey I see and hear things that will challenge what I already know to be true. What do I do with theses new discoveries. Do I reject them since they might threaten my belief system or look to how they are incorporated into what I already know to be true? I personal do the later.

I believe this is fault that mankind has demonstrated from our fall. People have found security in one school of thought or doctrine to only find themselves eventually lost as the revelations passed them by and they voluntarily remain still.

The Sanhedrin and Pharisees represent a group of people who could not get with the presentation of a what they called a new doctrine by Jesus. Jesus was challenging all that they held to be true and their security. However, it was really an illusion of security of their own making. They were refusing to learn anything new or take them outside of their comfortable box of knowledge. This proved to be their downfall.

Can believers today be accused of the same thing at times? I say yes we have and do at times. It is the sin of the pride of life that makes us secure and find security in our knowledge. God meant for our knowledge to grow as the revelation expands. This is indeed a challenge for the human mind fixated on facts, logic, and science. However, this is not true of the spiritual minded.

Most of our debates and rude behavior come from this same fault in all of us.

What say you?

Fsbirdhouse
Apr 21st 2009, 01:52 AM
manichunter,
If any were allowed to enter heaven with pride of knowledge, just think how quickly it will be erased when finally confronted by ALL the truth.
I think we will all get a chance to laugh at ourselves.

Joyfulee
Apr 21st 2009, 02:04 AM
The foundational truths of Jesus never change. Therefore, they can always, be confidently, relied upon.

Blessings! :):)

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 11:57 AM
Can a believer be secure and find security in their knowledge?

I am not by any means saying that this replaces the security we should find solely in our Lord. I am talking about having confidence in the knowledge that what we know so far as the truth and nothing but the truth.

I believe something differently about knowledge. I believe knowledge should be a journey of discovery that is living and growing in prospective and revelation. Hence, I conclude that I can never personaly be secure in my knowledge. On this journey I see and hear things that will challenge what I already know to be true. What do I do with theses new discoveries. Do I reject them since they might threaten my belief system or look to how they are incorporated into what I already know to be true? I personal do the later.

I believe this is fault that mankind has demonstrated from our fall. People have found security in one school of thought or doctrine to only find themselves eventually lost as the revelations passed them by and they voluntarily remain still.

The Sanhedrin and Pharisees represent a group of people who could not get with the presentation of a what they called a new doctrine by Jesus. Jesus was challenging all that they held to be true and their security. However, it was really an illusion of security of their own making. They were refusing to learn anything new or take them outside of their comfortable box of knowledge. This proved to be their downfall.

Can believers today be accused of the same thing at times? I say yes we have and do at times. It is the sin of the pride of life that makes us secure and find security in our knowledge. God meant for our knowledge to grow as the revelation expands. This is indeed a challenge for the human mind fixated on facts, logic, and science. However, this is not true of the spiritual minded.

Most of our debates and rude behavior come from this same fault in all of us.

What say you?

Do we depend on that which is written or is it our own opinion?

2 Cor 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

God Bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 21st 2009, 01:03 PM
Do we depend on that which is written or is it our own opinion?

2 Cor 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

God Bless you!

Firstfruits

On what is written and spoken by the Holy Spirit.

How do I depend on things that are written. I rely on a system called the witness system. What is the witness system? God says let everything be established by two or three witness and secondly that He will not leave Himself without a witness.

So what are the witnesses. There are three. The Scriptures which are the inspired revelation of God's will and character. Human physiology, the way were are made and function, expressed how we are made in his image and likeness. The human body even mirrors the first temple which is a replica of the one in eternity. Lastly the creation itself as Scripture says that man will be without excuse because he has shown himself in the creation.

All these witnesses leave a divine imprint and finger print of the divine's work in our limited reality. We can by know means now it all, but to those who understand the unity of the witnesses, have a leg up. The witnesses reveal patterns and pictures that are not clearly seen without dilligent seeking them. The OT is replete with science for this reason.

The Holy Spirit says the same thing that the witness reveal. If the Spirit says something to me. It can be matched by one if not all of the witnesses. That is all for now.

Wow.

Tomlane
Apr 21st 2009, 05:57 PM
I'm quoting manichunter in part since I don't have the time to reply to all of it.

manichunter stated:


I believe this is fault that mankind has demonstrated from our fall. People have found security in one school of thought or doctrine to only find themselves eventually lost as the revelations passed them by and they voluntarily remain still.

The Sanhedrin and Pharisees represent a group of people who could not get with the presentation of a what they called a new doctrine by Jesus. Jesus was challenging all that they held to be true and their security. However, it was really an illusion of security of their own making. They were refusing to learn anything new or take them outside of their comfortable box of knowledge. This proved to be their downfall.

Can believers today be accused of the same thing at times? I say yes we have and do at times. It is the sin of the pride of life that makes us secure and find security in our knowledge. God meant for our knowledge to grow as the revelation expands. This is indeed a challenge for the human mind fixated on facts, logic, and science. However, this is not true of the spiritual minded.

Most of our debates and rude behavior come from this same fault in all of us.

The Sanhedrin and Pharisees are no different then the religions of today that make a religion out of water baptism and observe holy days. Supposedly called modern Christian days taken from the bible but are not but manufactured by Pharisee type thinking from tradition and ancient Babylon. Because of Man's vain attempts at religion by mixing ordinances of any kind to grace are blind in part just as Paul warned the Christians at Rome;

4:10 *Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 *I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Luke 16:15 *And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.


That brings us to the mixing of ordinances with grace and the confusion it creates. Paul warned the Romans of the same thing.

Romans 11:25 *For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

From my observation of the ignorance found in those who adhere to ordinances to obey God either for salvation or good works are just as ignorant of the mystery, the church that is of today as Israel was of Christ. When this parallel fell upon me I was surprised at how the same ignorance abounds in both camps for both insist upon Ordinances. Only the Jew demands more of the law then our modern Pharisees as they are only blinded in part when it comes to mixing grace with ordinances. None the less the bottom line is a works program. Any kind of works program results in rejecting the beautiful works done all by Christ so that we can all be justified by faith alone. Faith does not void the Law but establishes it.

Romans 3:31 *Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Simple faith establishes the law through believe alone just as Abraham was justified by faith alone.

Romans 4:3 *For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

I do believe with just faith we can have complete security in God's truth when we rightly divide his word for God gives the honest believer of the word the spirit of truth and error.

1 John 4:6 *We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

John 14:26 *But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

so if we, {2 Timothy 2:15] *Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And we, {1 Corinthians 2:13} *Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. how can we not but know the truth and have the truth in complete confidence since we are given the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:16 *For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Part of the confusion today come from not obeying God in commandments from the Lord such as not fellowshipping with unbelievers.

2 Corinthians 6:14 *Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Our modern day Pharisees are most guilty of yoking believers with unbelievers and justify it by stating we have to do this to reach the unsaved. I realize through ignorance most believe this but it also builds up the membership and that means more money for their programs. Bottom line.

But God says, can we do evil that God may come about?

1 Peter 3:12 *For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Romans 3:8 *And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

God himself gives us the assurance of this truth:

Colossians 2:2 *That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

I hope I got my reply in the proper vein of your thread and answered it in accordance with it.

Tomlane

Teke
Apr 22nd 2009, 02:54 PM
Can a believer be secure and find security in their knowledge?

I am not by any means saying that this replaces the security we should find solely in our Lord. I am talking about having confidence in the knowledge that what we know so far as the truth and nothing but the truth.

I believe something differently about knowledge. I believe knowledge should be a journey of discovery that is living and growing in prospective and revelation. Hence, I conclude that I can never personaly be secure in my knowledge. On this journey I see and hear things that will challenge what I already know to be true. What do I do with theses new discoveries. Do I reject them since they might threaten my belief system or look to how they are incorporated into what I already know to be true? I personal do the later.

I believe this is fault that mankind has demonstrated from our fall. People have found security in one school of thought or doctrine to only find themselves eventually lost as the revelations passed them by and they voluntarily remain still.

The Sanhedrin and Pharisees represent a group of people who could not get with the presentation of a what they called a new doctrine by Jesus. Jesus was challenging all that they held to be true and their security. However, it was really an illusion of security of their own making. They were refusing to learn anything new or take them outside of their comfortable box of knowledge. This proved to be their downfall.

Can believers today be accused of the same thing at times? I say yes we have and do at times. It is the sin of the pride of life that makes us secure and find security in our knowledge. God meant for our knowledge to grow as the revelation expands. This is indeed a challenge for the human mind fixated on facts, logic, and science. However, this is not true of the spiritual minded.

Most of our debates and rude behavior come from this same fault in all of us.

What say you?

No, we cannot be secure in our knowledge. Knowledge is subject to change for us. Does this mean that we cannot "know" God? No. We can be still and know God because we 'experience' God.

It's not in our head, it's in our heart. And God has His own way of dealing with our heads, or perhaps I should say messing with our heads, to show us how foolish we are to think such.
He does so in an apophatic (negative) manner. Because we don't know, have head knowledge, of what is good and bad. So we must be guided by our hearts through which He speaks to us.

In my faith there is the teaching of the noetic aspect of the heart, which has eyes, and ears to hear and see with beyond that of our physic. CS Lewis calls it the "numinous" (CS Lewis "The Problem of Pain").
In scripture it is spoken of as the "inner man".

It has been my own experience, that as soon as we receive the revelation of the Son in our heart, the devil comes quickly and sets up a banquest for our heads. And I must confess that I have dined at his diverse table. However, such gluttony did not fill me. Only Christ and Him alone can fill us fully.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

"..The freedom of a creature must mean freedom to choose: and choice implies the existence of things to choose between." CS Lewis

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:01 PM
I've always prayed my faith exceeds my knowledge.

David Taylor
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:13 PM
Can a believer be secure

I John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in Him"

I Thessalonians 1:5 "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance"


Acts 17:31 "He hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

2 Corinthians 5:5 "Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident"

Ephesians 3:11 "in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. "

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