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paradiseinn
Apr 21st 2009, 01:49 AM
Can someone please tell me why we don't need to observe the sabbath anymore, even Jesus said to obey The Commandments.
The reason I ask this is because My boss needs me to work this Saturday and I feel like I will be breaking God's law. I want to make sure that It might be o.k. to work. Thank you

Fsbirdhouse
Apr 21st 2009, 02:10 AM
I remember a few years ago the furor over copies of the Ten Commandments being removed from certain government properties.
Just why should this be so? They either represent standards of value or they are legalistic and obsolete.
As far as the seventh day sabbath is concerned, I have often wondered why WE felt it necessary to take it on ourselves to replace Gods sabbath with one of our own choosing rather than just following the one He sanctified?
After all, it even predated the giving of the whole Ten Commandments at Mt. Sinai.
I have never recieved an answer for this that held up to close examination.
I go to church on Sunday like most of us. If we are to enjoy the fellowship of the CHRISTIAN family, how are we to do otherwise?

manichunter
Apr 21st 2009, 02:28 AM
I remember a few years ago the furor over copies of the Ten Commandments being removed from certain government properties.
Just why should this be so? They either represent standards of value or they are legalistic and obsolete.
As far as the seventh day sabbath is concerned, I have often wondered why WE felt it necessary to take it on ourselves to replace Gods sabbath with one of our own choosing rather than just following the one He sanctified?
After all, it even predated the giving of the whole Ten Commandments at Mt. Sinai.
I have never recieved an answer for this that held up to close examination.
I go to church on Sunday like most of us. If we are to enjoy the fellowship of the CHRISTIAN family, how are we to do otherwise?

Well do not feel so alone. There are many churches changing back to Friday/Saturday. Hopefully your own or one close by you will soon as well. I am not refering to Adventist, but normal Protestant based churches going back to either Friday/Saturday or doing both.

You are right. There is no Scriptural commandment or God-given prophetic message or foreshadowing of the Sabbath being removed from the commandments or being replaced by the Lord's Day.

All days can be honored, but Sabbath can be my physical rest date.

Fsbirdhouse
Apr 21st 2009, 02:38 AM
manichunter,
Just who are these churches going back to the original sabbath?
Haven't heard of any in my neck of the woods.
Thanks for the heads up.
I'll keep an eye out.



PS: What's the moniker mean?
Manic Hunter?

paradiseinn
Apr 21st 2009, 02:54 AM
ok so I shouldn't go to work this saturday because I will be breaking a commandment

manichunter
Apr 21st 2009, 03:01 AM
ok so I shouldn't go to work this saturday because I will be breaking a commandment

That is up to you as an issue between you and your God. If you okay with going to work, then no man can hold anything against you and vice versa.

I am sure we both break multiple principles of love daily. So lets deal with the little ones for like being honest, working hard as unto the Lord, and etc.

manichunter
Apr 21st 2009, 03:07 AM
manichunter,
Just who are these churches going back to the original sabbath?
Haven't heard of any in my neck of the woods.
Thanks for the heads up.
I'll keep an eye out.



PS: What's the moniker mean?
Manic Hunter?


I am in Houson, Texas. I see you are in Idaho. I do not know anything about Idaho.

Here in Houston, a few Churches have started celebrating the festivals to include Windsor Village United Methodist Church. It is the largest Methodist Church in the Houston area. Look it up and see. Search engine it and go to the upcoming spring festival events tab on the right. They have been doing so for three years. My church of two hundred have been doing it for nine years and we have a few sister churches that have joined along by the years.

http://www.kingdombuilders.com/templates/cuskingdombuilders/default.asp?id=23260

My church website is down right now for renovations, but will be up soon.

Fsbirdhouse
Apr 21st 2009, 03:08 AM
As long as we are on the subject of the sabbath.
We, or at least most of us, know it as the 4th commandment.
Seems the first three have to do with how we respect God, and the last six on how we deal with our fellow man.
Seems the 4th is for US!

-SEEKING-
Apr 21st 2009, 03:14 AM
Mark Chapter 2
23. One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain.
24. The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
25. He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need?
26. In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."
27. Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
28. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

paradiseinn
Apr 21st 2009, 03:17 AM
Mark Chapter 2
23. One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain.
24. The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
25. He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need?
26. In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."
27. Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
28. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

bottomline, what does this mean, am I ok to work on saturday?
won't I be breaking the law of God?

Truthinlove
Apr 21st 2009, 03:26 AM
Can someone please tell me why we don't need to observe the sabbath anymore, even Jesus said to obey The Commandments.
The reason I ask this is because My boss needs me to work this Saturday and I feel like I will be breaking God's law. I want to make sure that It might be o.k. to work. Thank you

Please read this link! :D

http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/tabid/53/Default.aspx

-SEEKING-
Apr 21st 2009, 03:33 AM
bottomline, what does this mean, am I ok to work on saturday?
won't I be breaking the law of God?

Bottomline.....Yes.
No you won't. Did Jesus?

Also Read Romans Chapter 14. I think it may shed some light on your question.

paradiseinn
Apr 21st 2009, 03:46 AM
Bottomline.....Yes.
No you won't. Did Jesus?

Also Read Romans Chapter 14. I think it may shed some light on your question.

But, Jesus said to obey the commandments

Truthinlove
Apr 21st 2009, 03:48 AM
please read the article that I gave the link for.

I believe it will give you the clarity you are asking for. ;)

-SEEKING-
Apr 21st 2009, 03:51 AM
But, Jesus said to obey the commandments

Yes He did. But did He or did He not "work" on the Sabbath?

Vhayes
Apr 21st 2009, 03:54 AM
I John 3
21 - Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
22 - and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 - This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24 - The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

BroRog
Apr 21st 2009, 04:07 AM
Can someone please tell me why we don't need to observe the sabbath anymore, even Jesus said to obey The Commandments.
The reason I ask this is because My boss needs me to work this Saturday and I feel like I will be breaking God's law. I want to make sure that It might be o.k. to work. Thank you

You should obey as your conscience dictates. If you have any doubts, then follow your conscience until you are firmly convinced otherwise.

Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

manichunter
Apr 21st 2009, 04:42 AM
I bet one thousands amens that no one can find legit Scriptural proof that the Sabbath was replaced or removed by God. It was done away with by man.

BroRog
Apr 21st 2009, 05:01 AM
I bet one thousands amens that no one can find legit Scriptural proof that the Sabbath was replaced or removed by God. It was done away with by man.

The author of Hebrews makes a distinction between the Seventh day of the week, which is a day of rest and the final age, which is a permanent rest from our "works".


Hebrews 4:9
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

I believe that the 4th commandment speaks about this future Sabbath rest, not the weekly ritual observance. Resting on the Seventh day of the week is anticipatory, forward looking to that day when we enter our Sabbath rest.

While all human beings are obligated to act according to God's moral vision, not all human beings are obligated to give ritual expression to that moral vision. And so, while all human beings ought to anticipate the Sabbath Day, not all human beings are obligated to express that anticipation ritually once a week.

manichunter
Apr 21st 2009, 06:11 AM
Hebrews 4:9
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.


While all human beings are obligated to act according to God's moral vision, not all human beings are obligated to give ritual expression to that moral vision. And so, while all human beings ought to anticipate the Sabbath Day, not all human beings are obligated to express that anticipation ritually once a week.

Heb 4:9 speaks of a future Sabbath in an eternal since, so what happened to the temporal one.

Still this does not prove the authoritative order to cease Sabbath observance or replace it. The reverse is true as well. There is not Scriptural proof to esteem "Sun"day above any other day.

I hear you and agree with the human thing concerning the ritual observance, because I do not do anything out of ritual myself. That was is funny about alot of anti-torah believers. Most observe christian based rituals religiously, which yields the same net result.

I wonder if Jesus was still alive on the Earth walking and breathing, would he still observe the Sabbath and go to the Assemblies on Sabbath to worship and pray with a congregation. It was his custom and I do not think he would change his custom for indeed was perfect and without sin.

The Sabbath was made for me like Jesus said (not for just the Jews or Israel, but mankind), so I am going to enjoy it not out of ritual or obligation, but as a blessing that God has set aside for me.

brakelite
Apr 21st 2009, 11:36 AM
Please read this link! :D

http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/tabid/53/Default.aspx

That all proves nothing. They are the same tired old arguments that everyone else offers. Simply personal subjective interpretation. Not one specific scripture annulling the commandment. Not one. And considering that the commandment was under pain of death by stoning in the OT, one would tend to think that any change to that most dire situation would require more than subjective interpretation.

brakelite
Apr 21st 2009, 11:42 AM
I am not refering to Adventist, but normal Protestant based churches going back to either Friday/Saturday or doing both.


Ummmm....... you mean I'm not a normal protestant? :D As I look around the Christian world and what has become "normal', maybe that is a good thing;)

brakelite
Apr 21st 2009, 11:49 AM
Can someone please tell me why we don't need to observe the sabbath anymore, even Jesus said to obey The Commandments.
The reason I ask this is because My boss needs me to work this Saturday and I feel like I will be breaking God's law. I want to make sure that It might be o.k. to work. Thank you
G'day mate.
Hey, if you feel convicted to observe the Sabbath but your present employment requires Saturday work, God understands your current obligations seeing as how your conviction came after your oresent employment was taken up.
But if you truly desire to do God's will, then perhaps you need to look for alternative employment or pray earnestly about your current situation and see if you and the boss can come to some sort of arrangement.

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 12:24 PM
Can someone please tell me why we don't need to observe the sabbath anymore, even Jesus said to obey The Commandments.
The reason I ask this is because My boss needs me to work this Saturday and I feel like I will be breaking God's law. I want to make sure that It might be o.k. to work. Thank you

If you are not keeping the other commandments in the law, then you would have already broken Gods law unless you keep all the points of Gods commands.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Rom 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 12:26 PM
I bet one thousands amens that no one can find legit Scriptural proof that the Sabbath was replaced or removed by God. It was done away with by man.

Why would you need proof with regards to the following?

Rom 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 21st 2009, 12:39 PM
Ummmm....... you mean I'm not a normal protestant? :D As I look around the Christian world and what has become "normal', maybe that is a good thing;)

My bad brakelight. I was not saying this from personal beliefs as to label you an unbeliever. I was using literal real definitions that world uses.

In truth there are many protestants and adventist who are apart of each group that are not saved.

So I care little for labels as others do.

So I was trying to make a point, that came off wrong. I am not saying adventist are heretics or any less a christian.

manichunter
Apr 21st 2009, 12:51 PM
Why would you need proof with regards to the following?

Rom 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Should we not have proof for things we believe. If not, then chaos will ensure. My bad, we already have chaos. What I mean about chaos is a split, factionalized, and segregated christian body along the lines of secular cultures, ideology, and norms. Why, because of all the unfounded doctrinal beliefs that have no Scriptural references and support.

Like the one concerning the putting away of Sabbath. Yahweh is not the author of confusion as Scripture proves. If wanted to suspend one of the ten commandments, then I think it would revocked by clear and concise repeal commandment. Not the speculative and theoretical stuff most say.

Some person took us to a sight with a link that had a bold face lie on it. It says that the day of Pentecost was on a Sunday. Wrong........according to which calendar. Yes it could be on a "Sun"day if you use the pagan calendar, but not on the Scriptural lunar calendar. The Scriptural calendar and the pagan calendars are not compatible and accurate for tracking Scriptural events. The feast of Pentecost is always on the same date each Scriptural year, but varies on secular calender. A christian's dependance upon a pagan calendar for spiritual truths indicates how seduce by paganism we are.

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 01:28 PM
Should we not have proof for things we believe. If not, then chaos will ensure. My bad, we already have chaos. What I mean about chaos is a split, factionalized, and segregated christian body along the lines of secular cultures, ideology, and norms. Why, because of all the unfounded doctrinal beliefs that have no Scriptural references and support.

Like the one concerning the putting away of Sabbath. Yahweh is not the author of confusion as Scripture proves. If wanted to suspend one of the ten commandments, then I think it would revocked by clear and concise repeal commandment. Not the speculative and theoretical stuff most say.

Some person took us to a sight with a link that had a bold face lie on it. It says that the day of Pentecost was on a Sunday. Wrong........according to which calendar. Yes it could be on a "Sun"day if you use the pagan calendar, but not on the Scriptural lunar calendar. The Scriptural calendar and the pagan calendars are not compatible and accurate for tracking Scriptural events. The feast of Pentecost is always on the same date each Scriptural year, but varies on secular calender. A christian's dependance upon a pagan calendar for spiritual truths indicates how seduce by paganism we are.

With regards to the scripture given, are you under the law?

Rom 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Fsbirdhouse
Apr 21st 2009, 01:35 PM
I read the link provided.
The Jews were observing the seventh day sabbath before the law was given at Sinai. It seems to have pre-dated the Ten Commandments.
Of all the talk about conspicuous absence in the New Testiment concerning the sabbath commandment, the most glaring absence is the devine command overturing it.
A devine command clearly stating it's observance would demand at least the same power of authority to overturn it.
AND EVERY BIT AS CLEAR AND CONCISE.
Our guesswork about what MIGHT be meant here and there doesn't quite cut it I'm afraid.
Sunday has been enjoined upon us by man. How many Sunday laws are there in effect?
Seems we've burdened ourselves in any case regarding Sunday and IT'S observance.

Fsbirdhouse
Apr 21st 2009, 01:40 PM
Ha!
Seems Manichunter was reading my very thoughts as I composed the last post, and beat me to it!
Good man Manic.
I think I like you!

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 02:03 PM
I read the link provided.
The Jews were observing the seventh day sabbath before the law was given at Sinai. It seems to have pre-dated the Ten Commandments.
Of all the talk about conspicuous absence in the New Testiment concerning the sabbath commandment, the most glaring absence is the devine command overturing it.
A devine command clearly stating it's observance would demand at least the same power of authority to overturn it.
AND EVERY BIT AS CLEAR AND CONCISE.
Our guesswork about what MIGHT be meant here and there doesn't quite cut it I'm afraid.
Sunday has been enjoined upon us by man. How many Sunday laws are there in effect?
Seems we've burdened ourselves in any case regarding Sunday and IT'S observance.

Since you need a clear scripture to say that a commandment is no longer valid then you would also need to explain why the other commandments (613) are no longer being kept as God gave them. you cannot keep those that you feel you should and not the rest.

God has declared that all that are under the law are unrighteous, all are under sin, there is none that doeth good.

Ps 53:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=53&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Apr 21st 2009, 02:09 PM
I think there IS a clear scripture dealing with the commands:
Galatians 3
19 - Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not kill him. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not lust after him or her.

If you love the Lord your God, you will not place anything above them in your life. If you love the Lord your God, you will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth everyday of the week not one day.

V

paradiseinn
Apr 21st 2009, 02:24 PM
i've skimmed over the posts here and i am very confused, I thought saturday is the Sabbath, not sunday. I've broken every commandment at some point in my life and i am repenting now. I believe that saturday is The Sabbath and I don't want to work if it means that i will break God's law. Sunday is being brought up through the post's as The Sabbath, isn't that the first day of the week?

paradiseinn
Apr 21st 2009, 02:26 PM
I think there IS a clear scripture dealing with the commands:
Galatians 3
19 - Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not kill him. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not lust after him or her.

If you love the Lord your God, you will not place anything above them in your life. If you love the Lord your God, you will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth everyday of the week not one day.

V

I agree, but The Sabbath is a day of rest, not Worship, that's my problem, my boss wants me to work on saturday, at 9am. God said to rest on that day

Vhayes
Apr 21st 2009, 02:27 PM
Saturday is the Sabbath - it was/is a day of rest.

Sunday is termed the Lords Day because if the Resurrection. It should be a celebration, not necessarily a day of rest.

paradiseinn
Apr 21st 2009, 02:28 PM
Saturday is the Sabbath - it was/is a day of rest.

Sunday is termed the Lords Day because if the Resurrection. It should be a celebration, not necessarily a day of rest.

So don't go to work on Saturday?

Vhayes
Apr 21st 2009, 02:31 PM
In my opinion, we are not under the Law at ALL. We are under Christ. He is Lord of the Sabbath - He actually IS our Sabbath rest.

I work on Saturday at times and I also work on Sunday at times. Do as your heart dictates. Read the 3rd and 4th chapter of Hebrews and see what it says to you.
V

paradiseinn
Apr 21st 2009, 02:33 PM
In my opinion, we are not under the Law at ALL. We are under Christ. He is Lord of the Sabbath - He actually IS our Sabbath rest.

I work on Saturday at times and I also work on Sunday at times. Do as your heart dictates. Read the 3rd and 4th chapter of Hebrews and see what it says to you.
V

ok, i will read that.
thank you

BroRog
Apr 21st 2009, 02:38 PM
Still this does not prove the authoritative order to cease Sabbath observance or replace it.

That's right. I didn't say that the Sabbath day ritual was ended or replaced. All I'm suggesting is that it's not for everyone.


I wonder if Jesus was still alive on the Earth walking and breathing, would he still observe the Sabbath and go to the Assemblies on Sabbath to worship and pray with a congregation. It was his custom and I do not think he would change his custom for indeed was perfect and without sin.

I typically don't associate "custom" with morality. All I can do is try to understand things contemporaneously and then apply my understanding to today. I think Jesus kept the Sabbath Day because he was living as a Jew under the covenant God made with Israel.

I take a cue from the Jerusalem Council letter to the Gentiles, which doen't mention Sabbath observance. (Acts 15)

Vhayes
Apr 21st 2009, 02:38 PM
You are welcome! It was for freedom that Christ set you free - read the book of Galatians when you get a chance. It is short and easily read in one or two settings. Let the Holy Spirit guide your reading and your study. He's a far better teacher than me or any other human - we can offer opinions and thoughts, He can guide you into all truth.

Happy studies!
v

Emanate
Apr 21st 2009, 02:49 PM
Yes He did. But did He or did He not "work" on the Sabbath?


According the the rabbinic definition, yes. According the the biblical definition, no.

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 02:57 PM
According the the rabbinic definition, yes. According the the biblical definition, no.

If we say we are not under the law, then we speak of doing that which is in the law are we ignoring the following scripture?

Rom 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Are we not all under sin as it is written?

Rom 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 21st 2009, 03:00 PM
If we say we are not under the law, then we speak of doing that which is in the law are we ignoring the following scripture?


No. Sabbath was made for man (man over the law) not man made for sabbath (under the law).

Emanate
Apr 21st 2009, 03:02 PM
Paradise. There are many folks who choose to partake in the gift of the weekly Sabbath. It is restful indeed.

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 03:03 PM
No. Sabbath was made for man (man over the law) not man made for sabbath (under the law).

But since the sabbath is a command from God according to the law, does it apply with regards to what is written?

Rom 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 21st 2009, 03:10 PM
But since the sabbath is a command from God according to the law, does it apply with regards to what is written?

Rom 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


I can build any doctrine I wish by isolating verses. I know context means little to you FF but I find myself unable to answer your question with context. Romans is talking about the error of being justified by the law, does it not?

Do you really believe that rest was given only to the "guilty before God?" I do not.

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 03:32 PM
I can build any doctrine I wish by isolating verses. I know context means little to you FF but I find myself unable to answer your question with context. Romans is talking about the error of being justified by the law, does it not?

Do you really believe that rest was given only to the "guilty before God?" I do not.

God has said that all are under sin whether or not they keep the law, so even if we could keep the law 100% we would still be guilty of sin according to Gods declaration.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 21st 2009, 03:36 PM
God is restoring His church to His pleasure. Praise His Name. Amen.

keck553
Apr 21st 2009, 03:38 PM
God has said that all are under sin whether or not they keep the law, so even if we could keep the law 100% we would still be guilty of sin according to Gods declaration.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Does that mean you don't Love God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your brother as yourself? You can't do those Torah commands perfectly, so why bother trying?

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 03:40 PM
God is restoring His church to His pleasure. Praise His Name. Amen.

Is that through the law or through Christ? Only one has the power to restore us to God, the other only condems.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 21st 2009, 03:44 PM
But since the sabbath is a command from God according to the law, does it apply with regards to what is written?

Rom 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

This is apart of the torah as well, but you say it is not passed away. You speak truth, however you do not understand the context and meaning behind the words of Jesus when He quoted this same torah in the NT.

De 6:1-9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:5&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - 1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:1&sr=1&t=nas) "Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the judgments which the LORD your God has commanded me to teach you, that you might do them in the land where you are going over to possess it, 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:2&sr=1&t=nas) so that you and your son and your grandson might fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:3&sr=1&t=nas) "O Israel, you should listen and be careful to do it, that it may be well with you and that you may multiply greatly, just as the LORD, the God of your fathers, has promised you, in a land flowing with milk and honey.

4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:4&sr=1&t=nas) "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:5&sr=1&t=nas) "You R254 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R254) shall love the LORD your God with R255 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R255) all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:6&sr=1&t=nas) "These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:7&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:8&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:9&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.



Le 19:17,18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=le+19:18&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=le+19:17&sr=1&t=nas) `You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him. `You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Is this not Torah? Are saints required to live according to these instructions of Torah. If you say yes, then what. If no, then what.

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 03:46 PM
Does that mean you don't Love God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your brother as yourself? You can't do those Torah commands perfectly, so why bother trying?

God himself said that none doeth good, no one is righteous.

Would you be happy knowing that you have not transgressed the law, and yet God, as he has done, declares you to be a sinner with all those that never even tried?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 03:49 PM
This is apart of the torah as well, but you say it is not passed away. You speak truth, however you do not understand the context and meaning behind the words of Jesus when He quoted this same torah in the NT.

De 6:1-9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:5&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - 1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:1&sr=1&t=nas) "Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the judgments which the LORD your God has commanded me to teach you, that you might do them in the land where you are going over to possess it, 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:2&sr=1&t=nas) so that you and your son and your grandson might fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:3&sr=1&t=nas) "O Israel, you should listen and be careful to do it, that it may be well with you and that you may multiply greatly, just as the LORD, the God of your fathers, has promised you, in a land flowing with milk and honey.

4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:4&sr=1&t=nas) "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:5&sr=1&t=nas) "You R254 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R254) shall love the LORD your God with R255 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R255) all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:6&sr=1&t=nas) "These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:7&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:8&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+6:9&sr=1&t=nas) "You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.



Le 19:17,18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=le+19:18&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=le+19:17&sr=1&t=nas) `You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him. `You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Is this not Torah? Are saints required to live according to these instructions of Torah. If you say yes, then what. If no, then what.

Can you answer this question with regards to what is written, are you under the law?


Rom 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 21st 2009, 04:35 PM
Can you answer this question with regards to what is written, are you under the law?


Rom 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits



No I ,as the born from above spiritual child of God who has been regenerated, adopted, and justified by Yahweh, am not under any law as you precieve it.

What you call Torah is not the same as law according to your preceptions. If I asked you to define both, you would see the difference.

The torah does not regenerate me. It does not earn my adoption. It does not justify me. My righteousness is fifty rags, hence Jesus as my kinsman (the man Jesus, not the God Jesus) has given me His righteousness by covenant. This is where we agree.

However, what we do not agree about concerns things you have yet to experience, investigate, or reconcile.

Here is my biggest example I can share. It is like talking to the average civilian about the experiences of police work and crime; and how different rules are applicable that they are ignorant of. In my fifteen years of law enforcement, I can tell you that there are two different worlds we live in daily. One world where everything seems to be okay, fair, and decent as long as nothing personally happens to you. The other world being cruel, angry, and merciless. I have seen these two world cross the average citizen at times. They are in complete shock and lack all understanding when this other world invades their okay reality. The criminal and I are dumbfounded by the naivity of the person who believe the world to be one way and denied the existence of the other reality. The criminal knew all along, and he takes advantage of the citizens false sense of security. The cop knows, hence he has to protect the average citizen from dangers they themselves deny. The truth of the matter is, the cruel reality is the real reality that this sin corrupted world is ruled by. The reality the average citizen creates for themselves and believes in, is actually the false reality.

This is the same with our conversing FF. I am aware of two different realities. Whereas you only know one. This is not a put down, but a fact I actually shared in at one time. Being a cop and soldier who travelled abroad has taught me to live and endeavor outside of the box of any created reality I precieve to be man made to include myself.

CommanderRobey
Apr 21st 2009, 04:48 PM
The commandment, 'Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy,' was given to national Israel. According to Exodus 16:29, man was not to leave his home on the Sabbath Day. If we are to go back to what God said the Sabbath Day was, (a day of rest) then we should not leave our homes as He commanded and we should rest. Later, in Leviticus 23, He said there was to be an holy convocation (meeting) on the Sabbath Day. But He never lifted the 'stay at home' command.

Then, in Joshua 3, we read that man could follow the ark of the covenant around in the city on the Sabbath Day, but could not come any closer to the ark than 2000 cubits (3000 feet).

Since the ark is not paraded around in the streets anymore, (where is it?) do we have authority to go out of our homes still?

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2009, 05:31 PM
No I ,as the born from above spiritual child of God who has been regenerated, adopted, and justified by Yahweh, am not under any law as you precieve it.

What you call Torah is not the same as law according to your preceptions. If I asked you to define both, you would see the difference.

The torah does not regenerate me. It does not earn my adoption. It does not justify me. My righteousness is fifty rags, hence Jesus as my kinsman (the man Jesus, not the God Jesus) has given me His righteousness by covenant. This is where we agree.

However, what we do not agree about concerns things you have yet to experience, investigate, or reconcile.

Here is my biggest example I can share. It is like talking to the average civilian about the experiences of police work and crime; and how different rules are applicable that they are ignorant of. In my fifteen years of law enforcement, I can tell you that there are two different worlds we live in daily. One world where everything seems to be okay, fair, and decent as long as nothing personally happens to you. The other world being cruel, angry, and merciless. I have seen these two world cross the average citizen at times. They are in complete shock and lack all understanding when this other world invades their okay reality. The criminal and I are dumbfounded by the naivity of the person who believe the world to be one way and denied the existence of the other reality. The criminal knew all along, and he takes advantage of the citizens false sense of security. The cop knows, hence he has to protect the average citizen from dangers they themselves deny. The truth of the matter is, the cruel reality is the real reality that this sin corrupted world is ruled by. The reality the average citizen creates for themselves and believes in, is actually the false reality.

This is the same with our conversing FF. I am aware of two different realities. Whereas you only know one. This is not a put down, but a fact I actually shared in at one time. Being a cop and soldier who travelled abroad has taught me to live and endeavor outside of the box of any created reality I precieve to be man made to include myself.

Do you experience the Sabbath according to what God has commanded and all that it involves?

Deut 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deut 12:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Not only must you keep the sabbath but all that God has commanded.

How do you benefit when God has said that all that keep the law are sinners, or unrighteous. What therefore is the benefit other than to have a day of work.

We cannot please God by keeping the law. We are all under sin.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Fsbirdhouse
Apr 21st 2009, 05:50 PM
To all who posted here, and especially paradiseinn.
We are not under the law.
We cannot follow the law perfectly, so grace came in.
We all hope to please God, we all want to have a close relationship with with Jesus, and as often as not we fail to do the things we wish to do. So grace came in.
Following the correct sabbath will not save you. We are guilty of all the commandments.
It really has nothing to do with salvation.
If you feel one day is better than another, then rest when you will.
I think the seventh day is the true sabbath, but millions who worship on Sunday will greet you in heaven.

paradiseinn
Apr 21st 2009, 06:14 PM
To all who posted here, and especially paradiseinn.
We are not under the law.
We cannot follow the law perfectly, so grace came in.
We all hope to please God, we all want to have a close relationship with with Jesus, and as often as not we fail to do the things we wish to do. So grace came in.
Following the correct sabbath will not save you. We are guilty of all the commandments.
It really has nothing to do with salvation.
If you feel one day is better than another, then rest when you will.
I think the seventh day is the true sabbath, but millions who worship on Sunday will greet you in heaven.

Thank you :)
1515151515

keck553
Apr 21st 2009, 06:52 PM
Is that through the law or through Christ? Only one has the power to restore us to God, the other only condems.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ALL of my obedience is through Messiah. Are you saying His power is sufficient to help me love my brother, but His power is insufficient to obey another command of God?

keck553
Apr 21st 2009, 06:54 PM
God himself said that none doeth good, no one is righteous.

Would you be happy knowing that you have not transgressed the law, and yet God, as he has done, declares you to be a sinner with all those that never even tried?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I've got news for you FF. I could obey God's Torah perfectly and still need salvation. So what's your point?

BroRog
Apr 22nd 2009, 01:25 AM
I've got news for you FF. I could obey God's Torah perfectly and still need salvation. So what's your point?

No one can keep the Torah perfectly, because the Torah is not something to be kept individually. It's a group thing, to be kept by a nation.

sheina maidle
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:27 AM
In Hebrews 4 the sabbath is presented as a type of salvation.

There remaineth therefore a rest (sabbatismos) to the people of God. (Hebrews 4:9)

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4520. sabbatismos

from a derivative of 4521; a "sabbatism", i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):--rest.

As God rested on the seventh day from His work of creation (Genesis 2:2), the true believer today rests in the completed work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (Genesis 2:2)

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. (Hebrews 4:1-5)

In order to enter into God's rest, a person must quietly accept God's work. He must cease from his own work. Salvation is God's gift.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (Hebrews 4:10)

The born again Christian has "entered into His rest" through faith in the completed work of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is our Sabbath (rest).

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:43 AM
I've got news for you FF. I could obey God's Torah perfectly and still need salvation. So what's your point?

If you could keep the Torah perfectly you would still be guilty of all sin, besides God said that no one doeth good, so according to God you cannot. We are all the same whether we keep it or not. We are all under sin.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:49 AM
No one can keep the Torah perfectly, because the Torah is not something to be kept individually. It's a group thing, to be kept by a nation.

This is true, if one person comits a sin unless that person is cut off then that sin remains on the whole of Israel. it only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch, so no matter how well we may keep the law it is gauranteed that we are guilty of sin.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:20 PM
so no matter how well we may keep the law it is gauranteed that we are guilty of sin.


False. 2000 years ago my salvation was bought by Y'shua the Nazarene. Sin has no dominion over me. I do not fear God's Law for I am made righteous by the death burial and resuurection of Y'shua. The Instruction of YHWH is nothing I fear under Messiah, it is a delight.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:50 PM
False. 2000 years ago my salvation was bought by Y'shua the Nazarene. Sin has no dominion over me. I do not fear God's Law for I am made righteous by the death burial and resuurection of Y'shua. The Instruction of YHWH is nothing I fear under Messiah, it is a delight.

And that was not through the law but by faith in Christ as God promised it would be.

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:02 PM
Trusting in God's wisdom and followinig His commmands is a response, not a means. Why is that such a difficult concept?

Emanate
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:28 PM
And that was not through the law but by faith in Christ as God promised it would be.

Firstfruits


as I have stated repeatedly

BroRog
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:29 PM
Trusting in God's wisdom and followinig His commmands is a response, not a means. Why is that such a difficult concept?

It's not a difficult concept but it has implications for how we live and how we relate to each other.

When you suggest that following Torah instruction is "trusting in God's wisdom and following his commands" your statement challenges me to think about whether or not I am also trusting in God's wisdom and obeying his commands.

So I am left with a choice. Either I am unwise and disobedient for not following Torah instruction as you do, or following Torah instruction isn't necessarily being wise and faithful as you suggest.

Not all of us believe, as you do, that following Torah instruction is wise or obedient. I don't believe, as some do, that his commandments to Israel, living under the Mt. Sinai covenant, are his commandments to a Gentile man living in the 21st century.

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:30 PM
No one can keep the Torah perfectly, because the Torah is not something to be kept individually. It's a group thing, to be kept by a nation.

Can you love God or love you brother perfectly? Why do you bother trying?

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:35 PM
It's not a difficult concept but it has implications for how we live and how we relate to each other.

When you suggest that following Torah instruction is "trusting in God's wisdom and following his commands" your statement challenges me to think about whether or not I am also trusting in God's wisdom and obeying his commands.

That's a good thing. We all need to ask God to search us and reveal any leavening. Other posters here have led me to that. I call that love.



So I am left with a choice. Either I am unwise and disobedient for not following Torah instruction as you do, or following Torah instruction isn't necessarily being wise and faithful as you suggest.

We are all unwise compared to God. Beyond that, you leave me with the same choice using legalistic theology that makes no sense what-so-ever to me. You keep over 150 Torah commands yourself, I guarantee it, yet you rise with indignation up when someone keeps 151. That's legalism.


Not all of us believe, as you do, that following Torah instruction is wise or obedient. I don't believe, as some do, that his commandments to Israel, living under the Mt. Sinai covenant, are his commandments to a Gentile man living in the 21st century.

So you have outgrown God? Ok. I respect your opinion.

Emanate
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:44 PM
Not all of us believe, as you do, that following Torah instruction is wise or obedient. I don't believe, as some do, that his commandments to Israel, living under the Mt. Sinai covenant, are his commandments to a Gentile man living in the 21st century.


Psalm 19:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=19&verse=7&version=9&context=verse)
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Proverbs 28:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=28&verse=7&version=9&context=verse)
Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.

Isaiah 42:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=42&verse=24&version=9&context=verse)
Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

The only question is, are the above scriptures profitable for doctrine or instruction (Torah) in righteousness?

Perplexing question - Is it really YHWH that should change to fit our modern needs or desires?

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:19 AM
Can you love God or love you brother perfectly? Why do you bother trying?

I think you misunderstood me. It isn't a matter of quality or ability. Keeping the Mt. Sinai Covenant, of which the Torah are the terms, is intended to be a group activity, not an individual activity. For one, it requires a Levitical priest be present to offer the sacrifices. It requires a temple and all the implements associated with the temple. The festivals require sacrifices and they are kept as a community convocation.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:32 AM
That's a good thing. We all need to ask God to search us and reveal any leavening. Other posters here have led me to that. I call that love.



We are all unwise compared to God. Beyond that, you leave me with the same choice using legalistic theology that makes no sense what-so-ever to me. You keep over 150 Torah commands yourself, I guarantee it, yet you rise with indignation up when someone keeps 151. That's legalism.


So you have outgrown God? Ok. I respect your opinion.

I understand sarcasm. It's a mild form of ridicule isn't it? It's okay, I have big shoulders. I can take it. :)

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth so correct me if I misspeak. As I understand it, those who are keeping "Torah instruction" are attempting to mine the Bible for golden nuggets of wisdom in order to live a good and right life in the sight of God. I get that part and I have no problem with it. You keep "Torah instruction" because you love God.

All well and good.

Compare that rational with the one you stated earlier in this thread in which you said you keep "Torah instruction" out of obedience. Now, you may not have meant this, but the common connotation of "obedience" is "obligation." And so you seem to constantly leave the question unanswered. Are you practicing "Torah instruction" because you love God, or because he compels you to do it?

Are you acting out of love or duty? I think there is a difference.

mizzdy
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:43 AM
Compare that rational with the one you stated earlier in this thread in which you said you keep "Torah instruction" out of obedience. Now, you may not have meant this, but the common connotation of "obedience" is "obligation." And so you seem to constantly leave the question unanswered. Are you practicing "Torah instruction" because you love God, or because he compels you to do it?

Are you acting out of love or duty? I think there is a difference.

I know this is directed at Keck but thought I would add how I see it. Doesn't God want our obedience? We are told to obey God at all cost to us just as the apostles and so many since them have given thier lives in obedience to God. Do you see them as being obligated also? Walking in God's torah is not an obligation just as being married is an obligation. (ok no marriage jokes :) ) When we make up our mind to follow after Christ, to give our lives over to God what is our next step but to strive to obey Him in all things and those things are torah, His instruction on how to carry on a moral life done from the heart, in love for Him and for our fellow men. I will speak for myself here and say I do nothing out of some kind of duty but because I love God and see what He has blessed me with in this life. If someone can love me so much as to give His Son over for the debt of my sins how much could I even begin to love Him but to want to obey in His love and light.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:45 AM
Psalm 19:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=19&verse=7&version=9&context=verse)
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Proverbs 28:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=28&verse=7&version=9&context=verse)
Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.

Isaiah 42:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=42&verse=24&version=9&context=verse)
Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

The only question is, are the above scriptures profitable for doctrine or instruction (Torah) in righteousness?

Perplexing question - Is it really YHWH that should change to fit our modern needs or desires?

I think we all agree that the scriptures are profitable for doctrine and instruction. But that isn't the only question, I don't think. Wouldn't God want me to pay attention to the historical/social/religious context into which he spoke? Shouldn't we ask, "to whom was he speaking and why did he say it?"

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:02 AM
I think we all agree that the scriptures are profitable for doctrine and instruction. But that isn't the only question, I don't think. Wouldn't God want me to pay attention to the historical/social/religious context into which he spoke? Shouldn't we ask, "to whom was he speaking and why did he say it?"

This is indeed true. Context and audience are essential.


Who was the audience that God has always tried to reach. When most read the OT, they think just the natural descendents of Abraham that were taught Torah. However, most forget that the mix multitude, Midianites, and others called strangers who enter your gates were taught the Torah and charged with obeying it regardless of their natural birth.

Moreover, the nation of Israel was charged with bringing the Torah to the rest of the world's nations, which is a mission they failed.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:27 AM
I know this is directed at Keck but thought I would add how I see it. Doesn't God want our obedience? We are told to obey God at all cost to us just as the apostles and so many since them have given thier lives in obedience to God. Do you see them as being obligated also? Walking in God's torah is not an obligation just as being married is an obligation. (ok no marriage jokes :) ) When we make up our mind to follow after Christ, to give our lives over to God what is our next step but to strive to obey Him in all things and those things are torah, His instruction on how to carry on a moral life done from the heart, in love for Him and for our fellow men. I will speak for myself here and say I do nothing out of some kind of duty but because I love God and see what He has blessed me with in this life. If someone can love me so much as to give His Son over for the debt of my sins how much could I even begin to love Him but to want to obey in His love and light.

Okay, what I am advocating is that we maintain the distinction between what we do out of love and what we do out of duty, since we both agree that the two are different.

Let's consider the commandment prohibiting the mixing of two kinds of cloth. And let's suppose I decided that, out of my love for God, I am going to avoid mixing two kinds of cloth together. In fact, to avoid displeasing God, I'm going to wear only cotton, just so I don't accidentally wear cotton shirts with wool pockets.

So here I am, sitting here in the 21st century at my computer, and out of love for God I am wearing nothing but cotton. God is happy and I am happy and life is a happy place for me.

Now suppose I go back in time to meet a Jewish man walking down the street. I say to him, "man, I noticed that your attire is simple and without any mixture of fabrics. I too am wearing only cotton and out of my love for God, I never wear any other material."

He will say to me, "Sir, I am glad for you that you love God and want to please him. But as for me, I am compelled by law to avoid mixing cloth whether I love God or not. I am bound to this course of action because my religion and my society demand it. So as a Jew, living under the law, the only way I can show my love for God is to go beyond what is expected of me. If I am to avoid mixing cloth, that is what is expected of me, and when I obey, I am only doing what any servant should do."

"So how do you show your love for God?, I ask him.

"I must find other ways, outside the legal system, to express my love for God and man. Everyone here is duty bound to avoid mixing cloth and you won't see mixed materials anywhere around here. Instead, I love God in ways that aren't expected, like feeding the poor, giving a drink of water to a stranger, carrying the bag an extra mile, turning the other cheek, caring for widows and orphans -- that kind of thing."

"For another thing," he continues, "we don't mix cloth, not because it's the moral thing to do, but because God commands it. Whatever God says to do, to disobey is to be immoral. For instance, normally jumping up and down on one foot is not a problem around here. I can jump or not jump if I want and it's not immoral to jump or not jump either way. But as soon as God says, 'jump', then to not jump is immoral. Do you understand?"

I guess so. To keep the Torah, for you, can't be a matter of love because even if you didn't love God, you are still obligated to do it out of duty. And so, to give expression of your love for God, you go beyond what is expected of you. Is that right?

Emanate
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:30 AM
I guess so. To keep the Torah, for you, can't be a matter of love because even if you didn't love God, you are still obligated to do it out of duty. And so, to give expression of your love for God, you go beyond what is expected of you. Is that right?


So you are suggesting that true love is shown when you live in contradiction to the Instruction of God? I do not buy it.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:42 AM
This is indeed true. Context and audience are essential.


Who was the audience that God has always tried to reach. When most read the OT, they think just the natural descendents of Abraham that were taught Torah. However, most forget that the mix multitude, Midianites, and others called strangers who enter your gates were taught the Torah and charged with obeying it regardless of their natural birth.

Moreover, the nation of Israel was charged with bringing the Torah to the rest of the world's nations, which is a mission they failed.

I have no issue with what you said. But I'm getting mixed messages from those who keep "Torah instruction." On the one hand, it is said that keeping Torah instruction is a good way to find principles of right living and to love God in the process. On the other hand, it is said that to keep "Torah instruction" is to obey his commandments.

My earlier point was this. If one is keeping Torah instruction because wisdom can be found in it, along with principles of right and wrong, then more power to them. But if someone suggests that I am obligated to keep Torah instruction because God commands it, then the rational for keeping Torah instruction has changed and I need to see how I relate to that.

If, for instance, a woman says to me, "I participate in the Easter play out of my love for God", I don't think she is suggesting that if I don't act in the play with her, I am somehow not loving God. But if she said to me, "God commands all Christians to act in Easter plays" then I must come to terms with how to related to what she is saying. Maybe it's true. Maybe all Christians are obligated to act in Easter Plays. Or maybe she is wrong and all Christians are not obligated to act in Easter Plays.

If one is going to say that keeping Torah instruction is a good idea because it makes for living a better life, then I might want to do that since I want to live a better life. But if one is going to say that I am compelled to keep Torah instruction because all Christians are obligated to keep Torah instruction because God commands it and all good Christians should want to do what God commands, then I must work this out to see if that is so. It might be true that God commands all Christians to keep Torah, or it might be a mistake to think so.

keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:47 AM
The ancient Hebrews attempted to worship in thier own way. It became infamous.

We know it as the golden calf.

Again it happend in the 1st Century. It became infamous.

We know them as Sadduccees and Pharisees.

That's always been the choice we've been given. His way or our way. It's not up to anyone to force you, even God won't.

We are free to make the choice.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:56 AM
So you are suggesting that true love is shown when you live in contradiction to the Instruction of God? I do not buy it. No, that would not be an implication of what I said. :)

In my story, the ancient Jewish man was living in the instruction of God, but his doing so was not a good way to show his love for God. He needed to go beyond what the law says and do things that were not expected in order to demonstrate his love.

In the context in which everyone is duty bound to keep the instruction, then keeping the instruction can't really be attributed to love. I mean, it would be easy for a man to say that he pays his tithes out of love for God, but it is also real easy for a man to kid himself. And it might actually be true that he keeps the instruction out of love, but only God would know for sure.

But I defer to our Lord who constantly challenged his contemporaries to go beyond what was expected of them -- to go the extra mile literally and figuratively. If a man sues me for my shirt, I am duty bound to give it to him. But if I give him my coat too, then I have truly loved him.

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:39 AM
I have no issue with what you said. But I'm getting mixed messages from those who keep "Torah instruction." On the one hand, it is said that keeping Torah instruction is a good way to find principles of right living and to love God in the process. On the other hand, it is said that to keep "Torah instruction" is to obey his commandments.

My earlier point was this. If one is keeping Torah instruction because wisdom can be found in it, along with principles of right and wrong, then more power to them. But if someone suggests that I am obligated to keep Torah instruction because God commands it, then the rational for keeping Torah instruction has changed and I need to see how I relate to that.

If, for instance, a woman says to me, "I participate in the Easter play out of my love for God", I don't think she is suggesting that if I don't act in the play with her, I am somehow not loving God. But if she said to me, "God commands all Christians to act in Easter plays" then I must come to terms with how to related to what she is saying. Maybe it's true. Maybe all Christians are obligated to act in Easter Plays. Or maybe she is wrong and all Christians are not obligated to act in Easter Plays.

If one is going to say that keeping Torah instruction is a good idea because it makes for living a better life, then I might want to do that since I want to live a better life. But if one is going to say that I am compelled to keep Torah instruction because all Christians are obligated to keep Torah instruction because God commands it and all good Christians should want to do what God commands, then I must work this out to see if that is so. It might be true that God commands all Christians to keep Torah, or it might be a mistake to think so.

It is actually pretty close to both. I believe people make it to complicated and miss common sense being added to the equation.

Divine torah is not much different from man derived torah which is in a lot of ways derived from divine torah. God says not to murder and we say it is passed away. A state passes a state law not to murder and we say it is all good. Parents tell children to do such and such, and it is all good.

We need to be real. We live with lower forms of torah everyday. We are even commanded in the NT to obey the torah of the nations we live in.

The funny thing is that no one can even keep the lower forms of torah with perfection. albeit parental laws, national laws, home owners associations. Who has ever been one hundred percent obediant to the torah of their parents, nation, or work place. No one, and no one can. Does this mean we should have no respect or obediance towards them since perfection cannot be achieve. No.

What is such a big deal about divine torah that in a lot of ways influences and gives instrinsic authority to our lower forms of torah.

We are told to obey our parents as children, and this is what we do. Do we do this because it is a good thing to do, or because it is expected by God. It was His original idea. No one has ever perfected obediance.


Why do we regard these lower torahs as legit and respect them, but reject God's.

What say you?

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:30 AM
It is actually pretty close to both. I believe people make it to complicated and miss common sense being added to the equation.

Divine torah is not much different from man derived torah which is in a lot of ways derived from divine torah. God says not to murder and we say it is passed away. A state passes a state law not to murder and we say it is all good. Parents tell children to do such and such, and it is all good.

We need to be real. We live with lower forms of torah everyday. We are even commanded in the NT to obey the torah of the nations we live in.

The funny thing is that no one can even keep the lower forms of torah with perfection. albeit parental laws, national laws, home owners associations. Who has ever been one hundred percent obediant to the torah of their parents, nation, or work place. No one, and no one can. Does this mean we should have no respect or obediance towards them since perfection cannot be achieve. No.

What is such a big deal about divine torah that in a lot of ways influences and gives instrinsic authority to our lower forms of torah.

We are told to obey our parents as children, and this is what we do. Do we do this because it is a good thing to do, or because it is expected by God. It was His original idea. No one has ever perfected obediance.


Why do we regard these lower torahs as legit and respect them, but reject God's.

What say you?


You lost me with this "divine Torah, lower Torah" stuff. Things have gotten pretty spooky all of a sudden, and so I can't understand how you spoke to my concerns. You say people have made it too complicated; but from what I just read, things have just gotten very complicated. :)

brakelite
Apr 23rd 2009, 10:51 AM
I am bemused by a common argument used against the observance of Sabbath; that is that " Jesus is now my Sabbath rest" because this or that one has ceased from his own works. The insinuation is that those who do observe the Sabbath as a day of rest according to the commandment, have not ceased from their own works.
My question is this, though it seems obvious to me: how can anyone observe the day as a Sabbath, without ceasing from his/her own works?

As a corollary to this, can we observe any commandment without ceasing from our own works? Does not death to self and the infilling of the Holy Spirit create in us the image of Christ? Is this not called sanctification? And because we are transformed into the image of Christ, would it also not be in conformity to the law that Christ wrote on the tables of stone, and which He now writes on the tables of our hearts? We can't accomplish this without surrender ; without ceasing from our own works. Sanctification is simply that. The changing of the life to make it conformable to God's standards of righteousness. And Ezekiel tells us that by observing the Sabbath, the day, we are acknowledging that it is God Who is doing the sanctifying, and not we ourselves. So by keeping the Sabbath, it is actually a sign we have indeed ceased from our own works, and trusting in Christ's working in us His righteousness.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


Further to this, no Christian I know of whatever denomination, would suggest that because Jesus fulfilled the law, it is now legitimate for Christians to commit murder, because they are no longer under the law. That would surely be quite preposterous. Yet we constantly witness claims by many that because we are not under the law, we are no longer obliged to honor it. This is so incredibly inconsistent. The reason I am not under the law is not because the law has been done away with, but because the blood of Jesus has released me from it's condemnation. That however does not release me from it's power to convict me again of sin should I choose to disobey it.
This also applies to the 4th commandment. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law by keeping the Sabbath, , (that is He kept the law, obeyed it and thus magnified the law making it honorable) that does not release me from my obligation to keep the Sabbath, magnifying it and making it honorable. If obligation makes anyone feel uncomfortable, sorry, but I would use that same word for every one of the ten commandments. We are obliged to love our neighbor and thus not commit adultery, not covet, not steal, not get angry and kill, and respect and honor our parents. We are also obliged to love God by confessing Him as the One and Only true God, Maker of heaven and earth, and all things therein. Because He is our Creator, He has sole rights to our worship, our fidelity and service. That is why we shun idols. It is also why we would not dare to use His name disrespectfully. It is also why we choose to honor that day which recognises Him as our Creator, and brings to our remembrance why He deserves our worship, and why the whole law and our keeping it is a recognition of His authority in our lives.

I mentioned previously in another post that the only arguments against the observance of Sabbath are ones of subjective interpretation, an example of which is the aforementioned "Jesus is my Sabbath rest" argument. By so doing we are placing our own authority above God's.

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 11:51 AM
You lost me with this "divine Torah, lower Torah" stuff. Things have gotten pretty spooky all of a sudden, and so I can't understand how you spoke to my concerns. You say people have made it too complicated; but from what I just read, things have just gotten very complicated. :)

Divine torah being the instructions God gave man throughout Scripture. Lower torahs being the rules and laws we create throughout our societies, within organizations, and family, such and such......... etc.

Emanate
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:44 PM
But I defer to our Lord who constantly challenged his contemporaries to go beyond what was expected of them -- to go the extra mile literally and figuratively. If a man sues me for my shirt, I am duty bound to give it to him. But if I give him my coat too, then I have truly loved him.


Well, the law is not a means to an end. A true life patterned after the Torah should bring the willingness to go the extra mile in love to one another. It was the pharisees who failed to see this.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:53 PM
Well, the law is not a means to an end. A true life patterned after the Torah should bring the willingness to go the extra mile in love to one another. It was the pharisees who failed to see this.

According to the scriptures what is the justification of doing so?

You say it should bring a willingness to go the extra mile.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:18 PM
According to the scriptures what is the justification of doing so?

You say it should bring a willingness to go the extra mile.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


because love is patient....etc...

mizzdy
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:22 PM
Okay, what I am advocating is that we maintain the distinction between what we do out of love and what we do out of duty, since we both agree that the two are different.

Let's consider the commandment prohibiting the mixing of two kinds of cloth. And let's suppose I decided that, out of my love for God, I am going to avoid mixing two kinds of cloth together. In fact, to avoid displeasing God, I'm going to wear only cotton, just so I don't accidentally wear cotton shirts with wool pockets.

So here I am, sitting here in the 21st century at my computer, and out of love for God I am wearing nothing but cotton. God is happy and I am happy and life is a happy place for me.

Now suppose I go back in time to meet a Jewish man walking down the street. I say to him, "man, I noticed that your attire is simple and without any mixture of fabrics. I too am wearing only cotton and out of my love for God, I never wear any other material."

He will say to me, "Sir, I am glad for you that you love God and want to please him. But as for me, I am compelled by law to avoid mixing cloth whether I love God or not. I am bound to this course of action because my religion and my society demand it. So as a Jew, living under the law, the only way I can show my love for God is to go beyond what is expected of me. If I am to avoid mixing cloth, that is what is expected of me, and when I obey, I am only doing what any servant should do."

"So how do you show your love for God?, I ask him.

"I must find other ways, outside the legal system, to express my love for God and man. Everyone here is duty bound to avoid mixing cloth and you won't see mixed materials anywhere around here. Instead, I love God in ways that aren't expected, like feeding the poor, giving a drink of water to a stranger, carrying the bag an extra mile, turning the other cheek, caring for widows and orphans -- that kind of thing."

"For another thing," he continues, "we don't mix cloth, not because it's the moral thing to do, but because God commands it. Whatever God says to do, to disobey is to be immoral. For instance, normally jumping up and down on one foot is not a problem around here. I can jump or not jump if I want and it's not immoral to jump or not jump either way. But as soon as God says, 'jump', then to not jump is immoral. Do you understand?"

I guess so. To keep the Torah, for you, can't be a matter of love because even if you didn't love God, you are still obligated to do it out of duty. And so, to give expression of your love for God, you go beyond what is expected of you. Is that right?

Well to start with I would have never went up to the man and commented on whether his clothing was mixed or not. And I wouldn't have come and said look at me mine is not mixed either and I do this because I am keeping the commandments. What other people wear is their business. I do understand what you are trying to convey though. For me I do not worry if my fabric is mixed and if God was really concerned about it and if He is He will convict me of my wrong doings. There simply is no way that anyone today, Jew and gentile alike that can keep all those laws and even if there was a temple, Christ is now our sacrifice. I never try consciously or otherwise to go beyond what is expect, I don't ever worry about if I have done something wrong or right within the law because if I have or not I have a God who forgives all.

"I must find other ways, outside the legal system, to express my love for God and man. Everyone here is duty bound to avoid mixing cloth and you won't see mixed materials anywhere around here. Instead, I love God in ways that aren't expected, like feeding the poor, giving a drink of water to a stranger, carrying the bag an extra mile, turning the other cheek, caring for widows and orphans -- that kind of thing."

This bothers me for some reason. Why do we have to think about doing any of it? Let me take the sabbath as an example. Most people have the pics and thoughts in their head of how the Jewish do sabbath, not turning the lights on etc. but for me its simply not that way, I know it going to be Friday night when it starts and that my husband will be home all day, that we will study at one point during that time, we might have the grandkids over and cook them breakfast, or friends over for dinner. How is that forming some kind of legal system? If one has the promise of God's laws written on their heart all that legal stuff seems so far removed. And if God's laws are written on your heart in love as was promises then you are fulfilling those laws/commandments by feeding the poor, going that extra mile and you don't even realize you are fulfilling them. Have you ever thought of it that way before? How do you obey God? by going that extra mile? and why do you do so? How do we show obedience to God as He wants then? God has given me a new heart of love that grow each and every day, now I could just sit here daily basking in that all by myself or I could show forth that law, its not a burden, why would anything God wants us to do out of our love be a burden?

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:33 PM
And because we are transformed into the image of Christ, would it also not be in conformity to the law that Christ wrote on the tables of stone, and which He now writes on the tables of our hearts?

My contention is that this kind of language, i.e. laws written on stones and laws written on hearts, makes sense in the context of a nation under the Mt. Sinai covenant and has no relevance to me at all. When Paul says, for instance, that we are no longer under law but under grace, he isn't talking about me because I was never under law in the first place. My people were never under the law. My people never had laws written on stones.


And Ezekiel tells us that by observing the Sabbath, the day, we are acknowledging that it is God Who is doing the sanctifying, and not we ourselves. So by keeping the Sabbath, it is actually a sign we have indeed ceased from our own works, and trusting in Christ's working in us His righteousness.


Again, whatever Ezekiel tells his contemporaries about observing the Sabbath applies to those living under the Mt. Sinai Covenant and I make a mistake to apply it to me. Keeping the Sabbath Day remains a perpetual covenant between God and the sons of Jacob, which has nothing at all to do with me. I am not a son of Jacob.


2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


Notice in that passage that it is Paul's metaphorical epistle that is written on the heart, not the Mosaic Law.


Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


Notice that the covenant will be with the house of Israel, not with my family line.


Further to this, no Christian I know of whatever denomination, would suggest that because Jesus fulfilled the law, it is now legitimate for Christians to commit murder, because they are no longer under the law.


Correct. However, we don't commit murder because it is inherently wrong, not because we are bound by a law.


This also applies to the 4th commandment. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law by keeping the Sabbath, , (that is He kept the law, obeyed it and thus magnified the law making it honorable) that does not release me from my obligation to keep the Sabbath, magnifying it and making it honorable.

Is it inherently immoral the same way murder is inherently immoral to work on the Sabbath day?


If obligation makes anyone feel uncomfortable, sorry, but I would use that same word for every one of the ten commandments. We are obliged to love our neighbor and thus not commit adultery, not covet, not steal, not get angry and kill, and respect and honor our parents. We are also obliged to love God by confessing Him as the One and Only true God, Maker of heaven and earth, and all things therein. Because He is our Creator, He has sole rights to our worship, our fidelity and service. That is why we shun idols. It is also why we would not dare to use His name disrespectfully. It is also why we choose to honor that day which recognises Him as our Creator, and brings to our remembrance why He deserves our worship, and why the whole law and our keeping it is a recognition of His authority in our lives.

The issue for me is this. I raise the issue of the coming day of Sabbath rest to point out the difference between remembering the Sabbath day, and expressing that remembrance in a ritual weekly rest. The forth commandment isn't commanding us to rest every seven days. The fourth commandment commands us to remember the Sabbath that is yet to be given the people of God.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:36 PM
I have no issue with what you said. But I'm getting mixed messages from those who keep "Torah instruction." On the one hand, it is said that keeping Torah instruction is a good way to find principles of right living and to love God in the process. On the other hand, it is said that to keep "Torah instruction" is to obey his commandments.
Why must it be either or? :hmm: I have been married to my hubby (BaxPack7 (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=25257)) for 23 years. Do I stay faithful to him because I love him or because of the commitment that I made to do so? Must it be one or the other? Or is it both? I both love him AND honor my commitment to him! :kiss:

As for what manichunter was saying about lower torah. It may make more sense to our western minds if he had said lower laws. For example, Paul tells us to keep the law of whatever nation or authority we may be under. Like, for example, not speeding. So, if we are to honor lower, less significant laws like speeding, why is it assumed that God's Law should not receive the same honor? Does that make the statement less "spooky"? :)

God Bless!
Denise

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:05 PM
Well to start with I would have never went up to the man and commented on whether his clothing was mixed or not. And I wouldn't have come and said look at me mine is not mixed either and I do this because I am keeping the commandments. What other people wear is their business. I do understand what you are trying to convey though. For me I do not worry if my fabric is mixed and if God was really concerned about it and if He is He will convict me of my wrong doings. There simply is no way that anyone today, Jew and gentile alike that can keep all those laws and even if there was a temple, Christ is now our sacrifice. I never try consciously or otherwise to go beyond what is expect, I don't ever worry about if I have done something wrong or right within the law because if I have or not I have a God who forgives all.

"I must find other ways, outside the legal system, to express my love for God and man. Everyone here is duty bound to avoid mixing cloth and you won't see mixed materials anywhere around here. Instead, I love God in ways that aren't expected, like feeding the poor, giving a drink of water to a stranger, carrying the bag an extra mile, turning the other cheek, caring for widows and orphans -- that kind of thing."

This bothers me for some reason. Why do we have to think about doing any of it? Let me take the sabbath as an example. Most people have the pics and thoughts in their head of how the Jewish do sabbath, not turning the lights on etc. but for me its simply not that way, I know it going to be Friday night when it starts and that my husband will be home all day, that we will study at one point during that time, we might have the grandkids over and cook them breakfast, or friends over for dinner. How is that forming some kind of legal system? If one has the promise of God's laws written on their heart all that legal stuff seems so far removed. And if God's laws are written on your heart in love as was promises then you are fulfilling those laws/commandments by feeding the poor, going that extra mile and you don't even realize you are fulfilling them. Have you ever thought of it that way before? How do you obey God? by going that extra mile? and why do you do so? How do we show obedience to God as He wants then? God has given me a new heart of love that grow each and every day, now I could just sit here daily basking in that all by myself or I could show forth that law, its not a burden, why would anything God wants us to do out of our love be a burden?

I want to make a point and ask a question.

The fantasy story I made up about mixed cloth was my attempt to sort out the difference between the two major reasons given for why folks keep "Torah instruction." I see two different and distinct reasons folks here give for keeping Torah instruction, and each one is diametrically opposed to the other. Sometimes the same people who give one reason in one post, give the exact opposite reason in another post. And so I am attempting to sort this out.

Keeping Torah out of love is an entirely different and distinct reason than keeping Torah out of duty. (My pointing this out is not an attempt to suggest that duty is a bad motivation.) And my efforts to understand the difference are motivated by my assumption that I am in a dialog with other Christians, with whom I share a common Lord, a common spirit, and etc.

If a fellow Christian tells me, that he is duty bound to keep Torah, though he is speaking only for himself, he challenges me to figure out how I should relate to his claim. By saying that he is duty bound to keep Torah as a Christian, he saying that ALL Christians are duty bound to keep Torah. Then I am to think about his statement and ask whether, indeed, it is true that Christians are duty bound to keep Torah.

The only way to make sense of this, for me, is to maintain the distinction between the motivations of love and duty. Things get fairly muddy fairly fast when someone tells me that Christians are supposed to keep God's commandments and that if I don't keep his commandments I don't know or love God. I realize that duty and love are not always mutually exclusive. I realize that a person can be both duty bound and bound by love to keep the commandments. But the only way I can sort through the claims of other people is to attempt to hear what is actually being said.

The distinction between love and duty becomes sharper when we realize that those under a commandment of God are always duty bound to obey God whether they love God or not.

This sharp distinction is found in an epistle like Galatians in which Paul tells his readers that if they get circumcised Christ is of no benefit. In this case, Paul is advocating that his readers disobey one of God's commandments. As a Jew, living according to the Abrahamic Covenant, he is duty bound to circumcise his sons on the eight day. But he is telling his readers, if you follow me in my duty, you will never find salvation. If you obey God's law concerning circumcision, it's possible that you will forfeit your salvation.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:06 PM
Why must it be either or? :hmm: I have been married to my hubby (BaxPack7 (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=25257)) for 23 years. Do I stay faithful to him because I love him or because of the commitment that I made to do so? Must it be one or the other? Or is it both? I both love him AND honor my commitment to him! :kiss:

As for what manichunter was saying about lower torah. It may make more sense to our western minds if he had said lower laws. For example, Paul tells us to keep the law of whatever nation or authority we may be under. Like, for example, not speeding. So, if we are to honor lower, less significant laws like speeding, why is it assumed that God's Law should not receive the same honor? Does that make the statement less "spooky"? :)

God Bless!
Denise

Not really. To me, laws are laws.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:42 PM
Not really. To me, laws are laws.At first I was trying to figure out which question you were saying, 'Not really', to since the response doesn't really fit any of the questions in the first paragraph. :confused I guess you must have skipped that or decided not to respond. I'll ask again, must I either love my hubby OR honor my commitment or can I do both?

As to the laws thing, do you keep the laws of the land (ordinances/laws/rules etc)? If so, why?

God Bless!
Denise

mizzdy
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:16 PM
This sharp distinction is found in an epistle like Galatians in which Paul tells his readers that if they get circumcised Christ is of no benefit. In this case, Paul is advocating that his readers disobey one of God's commandments. As a Jew, living according to the Abrahamic Covenant, he is duty bound to circumcise his sons on the eight day. But he is telling his readers, if you follow me in my duty, you will never find salvation. If you obey God's law concerning circumcision, it's possible that you will forfeit your salvation.

The whole idea of Paul speaking against circumcision was because there were those who wanted to impose the act of it. Circumcision was a symbolic act, setting one apart as Gods. Today it is our heart that is not the outwardly show. Those people speaking and demanding that the Galations circumcise themselves and keep some symbolic aspect of the law, that it be required of them, Paul sets them straight and tells them it just ain't so. Paul taught that to require that would be to deny that what Christ did for us would be insufficent. The commandments that define sin are written in the law but they don't make up the entire law or commandments. And Paul says in 1 Cor. 7:19 "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments is what matters." How do you reconcile Pauls words in Gal. and in well so many other places that even he tells us to keep God's laws?


Sometimes the same people who give one reason in one post, give the exact opposite reason in another post. And so I am attempting to sort this out.

I can't speak for anyone else but I think I am pretty consistent in what I say and I see that most of the ones who talk and keep God's commandments are pretty consistent also but of course I haven't read every post made here. :P



Keeping Torah out of love is an entirely different and distinct reason than keeping Torah out of duty. (My pointing this out is not an attempt to suggest that duty is a bad motivation.) And my efforts to understand the difference are motivated by my assumption that I am in a dialog with other Christians, with whom I share a common Lord, a common spirit, and etc.


Truly who says we do so out of some sort of duty? I hear 'out of love' more often than not.



The distinction between love and duty becomes sharper when we realize that those under a commandment of God are always duty bound to obey God whether they love God or not.


I just can't see it the way you do unless a person is just paying lip service to others and God Himself. Frankly why would those who do not love God and what He has done for us keep His commandments? That just smacks of dishonestly and well hmm I just don't have the words for that right now. Answer this for me please, how do you obey God? do you believe that someone who accepts Christ and God don't have to 'do' anything but just love. And believe me sometimes love is hard to show to some people (thinking about some of my family members here! :)) as I am sure you must know so by that definition love is also a work of sorts. Love is the center the cornerstone of everything, imo, and it is because of that love we obey Him, wouldn't you agree?

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:52 PM
At first I was trying to figure out which question you were saying, 'Not really', to since the response doesn't really fit any of the questions in the first paragraph. :confused I guess you must have skipped that or decided not to respond. I'll ask again, must I either love my hubby OR honor my commitment or can I do both?

As to the laws thing, do you keep the laws of the land (ordinances/laws/rules etc)? If so, why?

God Bless!
Denise

I'm so very sorry Denise. Please forgive me. I was on my way out the door in a rush to get to work and I was hasty in my response. I shouldn't have been so hasty.

What I was trying to say, in my haste was in response to Manichunter's point about the "lower" Torah.

You said,


Does that make the statement less "spooky"?

Yes it does. And thank-you for taking the time to explain it. I appreciate it very much.

I said hastily,


To me, laws are laws.

What I meant was, I am compelled by a court to keep all laws, whether they be "lower" or "upper" laws. As far as I can see, in my own experience, I am compelled to keep the laws of the land, whether or not I love God, love man, love my wife, or love my neighbor. And I am compelled by the courts to obey the laws whether they are "upper" or "lower." The only relevant questions the judge will ask are "is he guilty? and if so, what is to become of him?"

I guess I'm pressing this point because I'm trying to understand the how to relate to those who say, on the one hand, "I keep Torah instruction because it contains words of wisdom and because I love God." and on the other hand say, "what is so hard to understand about keeping Gods commandments?"

The first statement doesn't put any demands on me. The speaker is simply telling me his or her own strategy for living a good life. He or she wants to live in wisdom and fulfillment and finds that the Torah gives expression to God's intended way to live life. In this view, the Torah is simply another source containing principles of life by which a man or woman might find tranquility, prosperity, well being, health, and success. He or she seems to be saying that living according to these principles is a good thing to do and that he or she has decided to live this way according to their own personal preference.

It has been said to me, many times, "this is my faith. This is what I believe. Why criticize me for living this way?" This is a valid question. It shouldn't bother me at all and it doesn't. As long as the point being made is personal, it has no bearing on me at all. I can take it or leave it.

Nonetheless, there are those who suggest that keeping Torah instruction is a matter of obedience, rather than simply a matter of a personal preference. If it's a matter of personal preference, then I am free to act according my own preferences just as those who are living according to Torah instruction are free to live that way according to their personal preference. But as soon as someone suggests that its not simply a matter of personal preference but a matter of obedience too, this challenges me to figure out how to relate to them.

Are they saying that all Christians must keep Torah instruction?

That's the question I am attempting to explore here.


I'll ask again, must I either love my hubby OR honor my commitment or can I do both?

You can do both. But let me ask you this as a way to carry the dialog forward. Suppose your hubby gave you flowers. Would it matter to you whether he gave them to you as a spontaneous expression of his love, or whether he felt obligated to give you something because that's what people do on mother's day?

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:27 PM
Would it matter to you whether he gave them to you as a spontaneous expression of his love, or whether he felt obligated to give you something because that's what people do on mother's day?


Suppose he said that he loved her dearly, but would not give her anything at all on mother's day because he did not want to do anything under obligation but free will.

Most wives would still be mad and say I was hiding behind free will.

I tried this before with Christmas. I do not celebrate Christmas, but people who see it as significant still say I should get them something.

It goes back to my earlier example. We have jobs and follow policy because of obligation. Most people do not like their jobs let alone love them. We have multiple reasons for motivation, but responsibilities are essential to keeping the job regardless of our feelings. I do not think anything short of God can escape the reality of obligation. Nature is built upon a co-dependency system, as well as the human family, and body of Christ. God purposely says in His word that no man has all the gifts as to make him need a brother in some capacities.

I think it is endeavor to enjoy and achieve the ultimate state of freewill that we miss the point of how love and responsiblity play upon one another. The word obligation should be exchanged with responsibility or the part we share in the puzzle.

I myself do not like to be obligated, but I do have some responsibilities I cannot ignore if I want to prevent harm to myself and others.

Each citizen in a nation has certain obligations/responsibilities to their nation. Try dodging the draft or paying taxings, then see who cares about our free wills or disregard for obligations. Why shouldn't God's kingdom, the highest state of government not have responsibilities for its citizens that do not necessary care for the burden of their feelings or attitude.

Emanate
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:30 PM
How much must someone hate rest to not have a day of rest? Is rest really a burden? I have never been that much of a workaholic.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:36 PM
You can do both. But let me ask you this as a way to carry the dialog forward. Suppose your hubby gave you flowers. Would it matter to you whether he gave them to you as a spontaneous expression of his love, or whether he felt obligated to give you something because that's what people do on mother's day?I actually got mad at him early on in our marriage for buying flowers so he would NEVER do that! :lol: Such a waste to just watch them die in a vase. Now, he might buy me a plant or a rosebush. That is buying life. Buying flowers, to me, is like buying death. I'm kinda weird that way. :dunno:

I understand your genuine confusion which is why I gave the example I gave. You answered as I would with the fact that I can both stay faithful to him because of my love for him AND because I want to honor my commitment. That is the point many are making regarding having God's Law (Torah) written in our hearts. It is our desire to do what is righteous because we love and honor God. It is also our desire to obey God's commands because God is God. It is not an either or situation. I can only speak for myself but I will tell you that I absolutely know that my salvation is NOT through my flesh being perfected by the Law. That is not a point I've seen anyone here try to make. I have heard many people say that we have freedom in Messiah. Do you believe we have freedom to keep Sabbath or is that the one thing we are not free to do in Him? :hmm:

God Bless!
Denise

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:47 PM
How much must someone hate rest to not have a day of rest? Is rest really a burden? I have never been that much of a workaholic.

I hope I didn't leave the impression that resting every seventh day wasn't a good idea. I think it is. But this isn't the question I'm asking.

First I'm asking, does God expect each and every Christian to rest every seventh day on Saturday?

If so, why do you recommend it?

1. Its a good suggestion because regular rest is good for the heath and well being of a person.

2. It's not only a good idea but God commands it, which means if I don't rest every Saturday I'm being disobedient. In fact, my consistent refusal to obey God on a regular basis leaves the question open as to whether I am truly saved or not.

If someone answers number 1), keeping the Sabbath day is a good thing to do for health reasons, I will say, "okay, this person is making a value judgment and he has decided what to do according to his personal preferences. And since personal preferences can be weighed one-against-the other on a case-by-case basis, it would be appropriate to work on the Sabbath on those occasions when he has a stronger preference for some other thing, which necessitates working that day."

If someone answers number 2), keeping the Sabbath day is not only a good thing, but it must be done because God commanded it, I will say, "This person thinks that Sabbath keeping is more than a personal preference and he would not feel free to work on that day if circumstances demanded it or if he preferred to do otherwise."

Option number 1) places no demands on me personally because that person is making value judgments according to his own preferences and expects me to do the same and has no problem with the fact that my preferences are different than his. But option number two does present me with a challenge as I try to see how I relate to what that person is saying. Is it really true that God has commanded that Christians rest every seventh day on Saturday (or Sunday for that matter?)

I understand why someone might behave in a manner that best fits the Torah instructions as a value judgment, which is either a loving act or an act consistent with living a good life. I get all that. More power to him or her.

Nonetheless, the OP challenges the reader to think in terms of keeping the commandments.


Can someone please tell me why we don't need to observe the sabbath anymore, even Jesus said to obey The Commandments.



The question assumes that "we" (I assume other Christians since this is a Christian discussion board) don't keep the Sabbath "anymore" as if at sometime in the past we Christians were keeping it but then we stopped. It also assumes that the commandment to keep the Sabbath has universal application to all human beings regardless of nationality, but especially for those who claim to be among the "we" in the OP.

I can't help it, and I could be wrong, but this thread is seems vaguely familiar to me as a "law" verses "grace" thread. The difference being that some folks have seem to circumvent the issue by suggesting that those living under grace are free to live by the Torah, not out of obligation as those living under the law, but out of love for God.

Again, I have no problem with that as long as that person and I are free to love God in any way that suits us. But the emphasis in the OP is obedience and the set up is whether it is okay to work on the Sabbath. To those who rest on the Sabbath day according to a value based judgment that resting is generally a good idea, the advice will be, "go ahead and work this one time. After all, it's not a commandment but a really good suggestion." Or if a man is keeping the Sabbath out of love for God he might say, "go ahead and work this one time. God loves you too and he would want you go ahead and act according to your new freedom in Christ." But those who say that Sabbath keeping is a commandment -- one of the behaviors falling under the catagory "commandments Jesus said to obey", then there are no options. To disobey God or Jesus is immoral. End of story.

paradiseinn
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:10 PM
I am still confused on this topic, and I am going to work this Saturday and Give my work to God and Pray while I work, Also If I can, I will try to give all my earnings for that day to my church. I still believe that it is a day of rest and i'm afraid that I will be breaking the Law. This is the last time I work on saturday.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:26 PM
I actually got mad at him early on in our marriage for buying flowers so he would NEVER do that! :lol: Such a waste to just watch them die in a vase. Now, he might buy me a plant or a rosebush. That is buying life. Buying flowers, to me, is like buying death. I'm kinda weird that way. :dunno:

Okay, I get it. :)

I was driving at a quirky problem I see with the concept of keeping a commandment out of love. Its a challenge we all face as we try to do things with pure motives. James talks about the fact that God will not bless a double-minded man.

As I understand it, double-mindedness comes about when I have mixed motives for what I do, especially if those motives are diametrically opposed to one another.

We give the example of a woman who marries a rich man. Did she marry him for love, for money, or both? The more cynical among us will say, "of course, she married for money." We don't imagine that she will counter our skepticism with, "my love has but one flaw, he is rich."

Whether or not it is true, the presence of the money simply muddies the waters with regard to motive. And so, we always question whether we have mixed motives or consistently live by a singular purpose.

The same is true of the commandments, I think. Jesus points this out in this parable

But which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, "Come immediately and sit down to eat"? But will he not say to him, "Prepare something for me to eat, and [properly] clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink"? He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, "We are unworthy slaves; we have done [only] that which we ought to have done." Luke 17:7-10

Unlike two lovers, there is an asymmetrical relationship between the master and the slave just as it is between those who command and those who obey. In Jesus' example, the master does not thank the slave for doing what was commanded. The slaves are to say, "we are unworthy slaves and have merely done what we ought to have done."

And so, I am trying to sort out how to think about the concept of keeping commandments out of love. Jesus seems to imply that love isn't a relevant motivation for keeping a commandment. What's a slave to do? He has no choice and he has an asymmetrical relation to the master such that he can only say, "I am an unworthy slave."


Do you believe we have freedom to keep Sabbath or is that the one thing we are not free to do in Him? :hmm:


Yes, I believe we, out of our freedom, can rest every Saturday. But I wonder if I have the freedom to NOT obey Jesus' commandments? And is there a meaningful distinction between Jesus' commandments and those specified in the Torah? And why, for instance, did Paul have Timothy circumcised but not Titus? And why did Paul say that the one keeping a day and the one not keeping a day are both free to live according to conscience?

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:29 PM
I am still confused on this topic, and I am going to work this Saturday and Give my work to God and Pray while I work, Also If I can, I will try to give all my earnings for that day to my church. I still believe that it is a day of rest and i'm afraid that I will be breaking the Law. This is the last time I work on saturday.

I apologize. I thought Saturday already came and went since your initial post. And so I felt free to talk theology rather than practical application. My bad. Of course, do what you think is right and keep praying about it.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 23rd 2009, 11:37 PM
Unlike two lovers, there is an asymmetrical relationship between the master and the slave just as it is between those who command and those who obey. In Jesus' example, the master does not thank the slave for doing what was commanded. The slaves are to say, "we are unworthy slaves and have merely done what we ought to have done."

And so, I am trying to sort out how to think about the concept of keeping commandments out of love. Jesus seems to imply that love isn't a relevant motivation for keeping a commandment. What's a slave to do? He has no choice and he has an asymmetrical relation to the master such that he can only say, "I am an unworthy slave."

Yes, I believe we, out of our freedom, can rest every Saturday. But I wonder if I have the freedom to NOT obey Jesus' commandments? And is there a meaningful distinction between Jesus' commandments and those specified in the Torah? And why, for instance, did Paul have Timothy circumcised but not Titus? And why did Paul say that the one keeping a day and the one not keeping a day are both free to live according to conscience?Do you only see yourself as a slave to God? :hmm: I see myself as a child of God because that is the promise I have been given. There are many who see God as some distant taskmaster but Yeshua came that we might have a different relationship with Him. He is my Father. Why do my children obey me. Is it merely because they fear the punishment or could it be that they trust that my commands are for their own good and they desire to please me. When they were young and immature I believe it was more about the fear of punishment. As they grow older and more mature I would hope it was more the latter. And my eldest has gone through both options that led to obedience and spent some time in rebellious, willful disobedience. But guess what? Now she has matured even more, has married, and has moved back in the direction of obedience to the things we taught her in the past. The fear of punishment is completely gone now, yet she has learned the wisdom in those commands.

Spiritually speaking, we should not remain as babes in Messiah but should grow up into maturity. Paul calls Torah the tutor so what is it that a tutor/teacher does? When we were young we may have feared our teachers. But now, as an adult, I really appreciate the tough teachers of my youth that taught me everything from good penmanship to alegebra, proper manners to chemistry. Now that I am no longer under the teachers/tutors I could easily use poor handwriting, bad manners, and get any mathmatics problem put before wrong with no fear of reprisal. Isn't that right? But I don't. Why? Because I have learned that things my teahers/tutors taught were good FOR me! I use good penmanship, proper manners, good math and science skills because I WANT to, not because I have to.

We all would agree that it is good to spiritually rest in Messiah and His finished work at the cross. Should we not all agree that it is good to physically rest our physical bodies? How many of us know ministers/pastors that 7 day a week worked themselves into an early grave or into a divorce? Too many of us I'd imagine. I've even seen those both in the clergy and laymen that have burned themselves out to the point that they stop attending fellowship. Sad really. Well guess what? The tutor knew what we should learn and thus laid it out for us to learn but far too many have not learned. Is that the proper use of the tutor? To hear what he says and then discard it all? I don't think so and thus I follow as I'm led.

God Bless!
Denise

Studyin'2Show
Apr 23rd 2009, 11:44 PM
1. Its a good suggestion because regular rest is good for the heath and well being of a person.

2. It's not only a good idea but God commands it, which means if I don't rest every Saturday I'm being disobedient. In fact, my consistent refusal to obey God on a regular basis leaves the question open as to whether I am truly saved or not.
I believe there should be a number 3 in your choices.

3. It's a good idea because it is one of God's commands, also because regular rest is good for health and well being, and of course because we know God wouldn't tell us to do something that would be bad for us. Yeshua says that the Sabbath was made FOR man so we should accept this gift from God and cherish it.

** Btw, I would NEVER say it's a question of salvation because the ONLY thing that determines our salvation is whether we have accepted the blood of Messiah and His righteousness. Yes, His blood is that powerful! :pp

BroRog
Apr 24th 2009, 12:30 AM
I believe there should be a number 3 in your choices.

3. It's a good idea because it is one of God's commands, also because regular rest is good for health and well being, and of course because we know God wouldn't tell us to do something that would be bad for us. Yeshua says that the Sabbath was made FOR man so we should accept this gift from God and cherish it.

I don't see how this is different than number 2.


** Btw, I would NEVER say it's a question of salvation because the ONLY thing that determines our salvation is whether we have accepted the blood of Messiah and His righteousness. Yes, His blood is that powerful! :pp

If you believe that resting every seventh day on Saturday is a commandment which obligates Christians, then what do you think of a person who claims to be a Christian, but does not rest on the Sabbath day or any particular day at all? Wouldn't you say that man willfully sins on regular basis? Is he saved?

Suppose a man murders someone on a regular basis, say once a month, is that a matter of salvation? What if that man has accepted the blood of Messiah and his righteousness?

You see, it's fairly easy for me to sit here and fool myself into thinking that Sabbath keeping is a matter of obedience to God's commands, but if I don't do it, oh-well, it's not a matter of salvation anyway. I can certainly justify it to myself that way. But I can't seem to make the same rationalizations with other commandments like murder for instance.

I don't mean to get weird, but it is weird isn't it? :)

I mean, when I used to talk to Seventh Day Adventists about keeping the Sabbath day, they used to challenge me as to why I would keep the other nine but not the fourth commandment. The logic of their argument came down to a presupposition that the Ten Commandments, big 'T' big 'C', were to be taken as a whole as God's top ten things that moral people ought to do. By strong implication, then, the fourth commandment was on the same moral level as the prohibition against murder.

And yet . . . and yet, when talking with them about it they would say stuff to me like, "don't worry about it for now. Just pray about it and see what God says to you. Eventually God will require all Christians to keep the Sabbath day and when he returns we will all be keeping the Sabbath day." When I heard stuff like that, I couldn't believe my ears. I am having a dialog with a brother or sister in Christ who believes that keeping the Sabbath day is on the same moral level as the prohibitions against murder and adultery. At the same time, they are telling me that its okay for me to pray about it and decide as the Spirit leads.

What!? :)

Let's see how this sounds. "Well, BroRog, I see you are not obeying God's commandment against murder. You know, we both know that murder isn't a matter of salvation but don't you thing God would want you to obey all of his commandments? Why don't you pray about it and see if the Lord leads you to join our group. Why not stop your murdering ways and obey God's commandments?" I might say, "you know, I am no longer under law but under grace. I have the freedom in Christ to kill anyone I want. After all, I've been forgiven already and, you know, some people are just a pain in the neck."

Sorry about the absurdity of my example. I apologize for the offensive nature of such a weird example. But my intention is good I think. I'm trying to make a point about how weird it sounds to hear a case being made concerning the moral imperative of keeping the Sabbath day, as if violation of keeping the Sabbath day was on the same moral level as murder, but being told that it isn't a salvation issue.

If someone tells me that keeping the Sabbath day is a commandment, he compels me to assertain how I relate to such a statement. If I am not keeping the Sabbath day, and it is indeed a commandment, then I am willfully disobedient to God four times a month on a regular basis. How is THAT not a salvation issue? Doesn't willfull disobedience on a regular basis call my salvation into question? Shouldn't I be worried if I find myself in constant disobedience to God?

Maybe I shouldn't have bought my counterfeit ticket to heaven from a scalper?

ringingtrue
Apr 24th 2009, 12:52 AM
I dont believe I have read where God said to do away with his Holy Day.
I do however understand what Jesus said about having mercy on those in need even if it is the Sabbath. Ex. Rescuing animals from ditches. Seems the bible mentions something about ditches "humans" fall into also.

GBY

Studyin'2Show
Apr 25th 2009, 02:08 AM
I would have quoted you Bro Rog but that was a pretty big post so I'll assume anyone reading along has the wherewithal to read it. ;) First, let me say I am not Seventh Day Adventist so I can not answer for the discussions you've had with them. Please do not assume that my position lines up with their doctrine. It doesn't. Though one of my dear friends on this board is SDA I have told him often that there is much of the SDA doctrine that I just do not believe jibes with the word of God. He would, of course, disagree with me but hey, that's a whole other thread. :D

Bottom line, your number 2 presupposes a very harsh judgment from me and others who keep Sabbath but are not SDA. Therefore, I would NOT choose your number 1 or your number 2. I just wouldn't. Which is why I suggested a 3rd option. One of the things you mentioned was something about Christians being 'obligated' to keep the 10 commandments. If we were simply 'obligated' to anything like that, we could not claim to have God's Law written on our hearts. Do you think Jeremiah was speaking of God actually taking a pen and physically writing something on our hearts? No. He was speaking of a desire (heart). We are not 'obligated to walk righteously but rather should 'desire' to walk righteously. If you are serving God out of obligation then you are no better than the Pharisees we seem all too ready to condemn.

As for 'willfully' sinning, to willfully sin you have to first, know something is a sin, and second, do it anyway. Knowledge of the sin is the key. That is why Yeshua said that Chorazin and Bethsaida and Capernaum would be held to a higher accountability. Because they had seen the truth; they had first hand knowledge.

Matthew 11:20-24
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

So, I would advise anyone to do as the Bereans did and search the scriptures. Pray, fast, ask God for revelation, and follow as the Holy Spirit leads you not as man or man's doctrine tells you. Yeshua was clear that when we seek, we will find and when we ask, it will be given to us and when we knock, the door will be opened. Paul speaks of the mysteries. If he spoke of mysteries, why do so many not feel the need to search diligently to unlock them? :hmm: Keep asking, seeking, and knocking! ;)

God Bless!
Denise

paradiseinn
Apr 25th 2009, 03:26 AM
Guess What!

I could not find someone to watch my 4yr old so someone covered for me!
This is funny to me because I was worried that I would be breaking God's law. So tommarow I'm off. LOL! I really need the money but, I think this is my answer! I think me and God might be sharing a laugh right now.
I know Jesus did his "works" on The Sabbath but, He is The Lord of it so I believe that we should keep it and not work on it. We can leave our homes and go out to the movies and stuff, but do not work,....That is what I believe.

brakelite
Apr 25th 2009, 01:24 PM
Bro rog, I am an SDA. Permit me if you will to try and explain form my perspective. That however may not entirely gel with what you have heard from other SDAs, but hey, nobody's perfect, yet.
The Sabbath IS different from all the other commandments. However, being different, does not make it any less a commandment. Let me explain. In any society, whether they have had contact with missionaries or the western world or perhaps no contact with anyone in the outside world, would over a period of time develop a code of ethics by which to live under. These will eventually develop into laws, and may very well get to a stage where they actually resemble the ten commandments. Except for the Sabbath of the 4th.
There is simply no way any society anywhere could come up with such an idea. For one, it marks the week. The week is a time period which is a unique witness to creation. Every other time period known to man is based on natural cycles of either the moon or the sun or the stars. That is in fact why they were created: that they may be for signs and seasons etc. But the weekly cycle is based on nothing other than the word of God. And yet it has endured. There have been attempts over the centuries to change it; someone one time tried to implement a 10 day week, but failed.
The Sabbath is the same. It is not based upon any moral principle as such, but purely and simply on the word of God. Period. It is a commandment that comes by no other authority except by revelation. Therefore, our acceptance or rejection of it ultimately comes down to our attitude to God's authority.
Another reason why it would not be a part of any such community's law is the fact that it is a memorial. A memorial of a specific event. Again, only revealtion would induce anyone to include such a commandment in any law.
But does that make the commandment any less important? Any less 'moral' to obey? As S2S said, to him who knows to do good but does it not, to him it is sin. Clearly, you do not yet recognise the Sabbath, so for you it is not sin when you so disregard it. But maybe ones sin in such a case lies not in the fact that one may not be observing the Sabbath, but perhaps, and please I do stress perhaps, it lies in an unwillingness to accept something that may prove awkward or inconvenient or disturbing? Therefore one may not so diligently search for that truth or consider it so seriously? Therefor the sin lies more in the refusal to accept God's authority over man's?

Check out your concordance and count the number of times the word Sabbath appears in scripture. In both old and new testaments it echoes across the pages of the Bible from one end to the other. It is a day that is clearly very very important to God. It was a day that was instituted at creation, was intended to be continued throughout history (as the episode with the gathering of manna before Sinai shows) and was reinforced with much grandeur and fanfare from Mt Sinai. What a awesome display of God's glory and power that must have been. Lightning, thunder, earthquakes,fire and smoke, black clouds, trumpets and booming voice, no wonder Israel feared and ran away.
Yet we are led to believe that one of those commandments, the very one that God placed deliberately in the heart of the ten, one that comes by no other source but from His own lips, has been done away without as much as a whimper? If the early church suddenly began ignoring the Sabbath as is supposed, where was the debate? Where was the controversy with the Jewish legalists who were all looking for the slightest excuse to malign the new movement? Why was it not an issue like circumcision? I would strongly suggest to you that the reason it never came up for any debate was that the early church kept the Sabbath faithfully , both Jew and gentile, and it was not an issue.

QUOTE: "The question assumes that "we" (I assume other Christians since this is a Christian discussion board) don't keep the Sabbath "anymore" as if at sometime in the past we Christians were keeping it but then we stopped. It also assumes that the commandment to keep the Sabbath has universal application to all human beings regardless of nationality, but especially for those who claim to be among the "we" in the OP."

It is a fact that Christians did keep the Sabbath but stopped. Over a period of time and for several reasons, Sunday became more popular and through church councils and enforcement, 'Judaising' or Sabbath keeping was forbidden by the ruling church /state power.
When Rome began to persecute and wage relentless war against Jews in the 2nd century as a result of several Jewish uprisings, Jews and Christians alike were rounded up and carted off to imprisonment or worse. Many Christians felt they needed to be seen to be a separate group and people from Jews and began disregarding the Sabbath. For the Roman, this was a very significant thing. A Jew who didn't keep Sabbath was unheard of . So Christians who began observing Sunday in honor of the resurrection were left alone. Eventually, when Constantine claimed to be a Christian, half the empire was Christian; it became politically expedient for Constantine to recognise Christianity as an officially recognised religion.
To make Christianity more acceptable to pagans, Constantine made Sunday the official day of rest. Sunday at that time was the official day for sun worship, and 'baptising' it brought acceptability and unity to the empire.
The church in Rome which took over the Roman civil authority when Constantine left for Constantinople, at the council of Laodicea made Sunday the official church day of worship in line with Constantine's civil edict.
Not all Christianity accepted this however. Elsewhere where Roman influence was less significant eg in Ethiopia, Britain, and Asia, the Sabbath was kept by the Christian church for centuries. By some even right up to the 17th and 18 th centuries.

You said elsewhere that the commandment has no applicability to you because you are not of Israel, and not a child of Jacob. But BroRog, if you are a Christian, you are indeed a child of Jacob. And only children of Jacob will be entering through the gates into the New Jerusalem. Where according to Isaiah, the saints will be worshiping God on the Sabbath for all eternity.

doug3
Apr 25th 2009, 03:20 PM
Guess What!

I could not find someone to watch my 4yr old so someone covered for me!
This is funny to me because I was worried that I would be breaking God's law. So tommarow I'm off. LOL! I really need the money but, I think this is my answer! I think me and God might be sharing a laugh right now.
I know Jesus did his "works" on The Sabbath but, He is The Lord of it so I believe that we should keep it and not work on it. We can leave our homes and go out to the movies and stuff, but do not work,....That is what I believe.

Praise the Lord!

Studyin'2Show
Apr 25th 2009, 08:25 PM
Guess What!

I could not find someone to watch my 4yr old so someone covered for me!
This is funny to me because I was worried that I would be breaking God's law. So tommarow I'm off. LOL! I really need the money but, I think this is my answer! I think me and God might be sharing a laugh right now.
I know Jesus did his "works" on The Sabbath but, He is The Lord of it so I believe that we should keep it and not work on it. We can leave our homes and go out to the movies and stuff, but do not work,....That is what I believe.That is awesome news! I'll have a laugh along with you and God! :lol:

brakelite
Apr 25th 2009, 08:37 PM
Guess What!

I could not find someone to watch my 4yr old so someone covered for me!
This is funny to me because I was worried that I would be breaking God's law. So tommarow I'm off. LOL! I really need the money but, I think this is my answer! I think me and God might be sharing a laugh right now.
I know Jesus did his "works" on The Sabbath but, He is The Lord of it so I believe that we should keep it and not work on it. We can leave our homes and go out to the movies and stuff, but do not work,....That is what I believe.

Hey!! Praise the Lord. Like I said in my last post, the relevance of Sabbath can only come by revelation. And God has revealed Himself and His will to you. What an awesome God we serve!

BroRog
Apr 25th 2009, 09:13 PM
Bottom line, your number 2 presupposes a very harsh judgment from me and others who keep Sabbath but are not SDA. Therefore, I would NOT choose your number 1 or your number 2. I just wouldn't. Which is why I suggested a 3rd option.

I see what you mean. However, your 3rd option suggests that we should keep the Sabbath day because it is one of God's commands. And it's this issue of "a commandment" that I am exploring here. I'm still pressing the idea that a commandment impinges heavily on me and demands more of me than a suggestion or a "good idea."


One of the things you mentioned was something about Christians being 'obligated' to keep the 10 commandments. If we were simply 'obligated' to anything like that, we could not claim to have God's Law written on our hearts.

Can you flesh this out further, because I was thinking that I am duty bound to keep a commandment whether it is written on stone or on my heart. Isn't that right?

I mean, I understand your point about our change of attitude such that we want to keep the commandments. It's our wish to always be obedient, etc. I think all Christians agree with this primary axiom.

Even so, the bottom line criteria for whether Christian ought to keep the Sabbath day comes down to a matter of duty. Granting that our attitude should be a desire and a wish to keep the commandments, the prior question is whether keeping the Sabbath day is something that is commanded of all human beings, particularly of me personally.

One way to answer the question is to ascertain whether keeping the Sabbath day is a universal code of conduct which all rational people would agree is a good and commendable behavior, which is why I attempted earlier to contrast the 4th commandment with the 6th commandment. Many theologians recognize that murder is intrinsically wrong, the immorality of murder being self-evident. If someone could demonstrate to me that keeping the Sabbath day was as axiomatic as not committing murder or adultery, then I would not only be obligated to keep the Sabbath day, but I would be happy and willing to do that.

Another way to answer the question is to ascertain whether God or Jesus repeated the commandment in a Christian context such that he obligated all believers, even those outside the Mt. Sinai covenant to keep the Sabbath day.

Tomlane
Apr 25th 2009, 09:22 PM
Hebrews 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 śLet us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

If through salvation in Christ, we cease from our own works and enter into rest that is found in Christ for He did it all for us just as Paul was showing the Hebrews. Why is it people want to put a physical requirement to every spiritual worship we have in Christ. Satan is so busy decieving.

Tomlane

BroRog
Apr 25th 2009, 09:58 PM
It is not based upon any moral principle as such, but purely and simply on the word of God. Period. It is a commandment that comes by no other authority except by revelation. Therefore, our acceptance or rejection of it ultimately comes down to our attitude to God's authority.

I agree with your view that it is God's authority, not a universal moral imperative that obligates one to keep the Sabbath day. Yet, the question remains whether this particular commandment is jurisdictional or universal.


But does that make the commandment any less important? Any less 'moral' to obey? As S2S said, to him who knows to do good but does it not, to him it is sin. Clearly, you do not yet recognise the Sabbath, so for you it is not sin when you so disregard it.

I anticipate your point in my comparison between the 4th and the 6th commandment. I don't think the 4th commandment is a moral axiom but simply has jurisdiction over those living under the Mt. Sinai covenant. If I was living under that covenant, of course, it would be immoral for me to disobey, as your question rightly points out, as it is always immoral for me to disobey God. But since I am not living under that agreement, I don't think I am being immoral not keeping it.


Therefor the sin lies more in the refusal to accept God's authority over man's?


Good question. Yet, in the question of keeping the Sabbath day, I believe the commandment is jurisdictional, applying to those under the Mt. Sinai Covenant alone.

Also, when I say it's jurisdictional, I'm not making it trivial or unimportant. I agree with your point that the Sabbath is important to God.


Yet we are led to believe that one of those commandments, the very one that God placed deliberately in the heart of the ten, one that comes by no other source but from His own lips, has been done away without as much as a whimper?

I would never suggest that the Sabbath day, or even the commandment to rest every seven days, has been done away. My suggestion that the 4th commandment is jurisdictional certainly implies that the commandment has not be nullified. Jurisdictional laws are in force on the governed living under the theocracy of God, particularly the sons of Israel while living in the promised land.


I would strongly suggest to you that the reason it never came up for any debate was that the early church kept the Sabbath faithfully, both Jew and gentile, and it was not an issue.


I couldn't make an argument from silence and since the NT is silent on the issue, I couldn't say whether Gentile believers rested on the seventh day of the week.


You said elsewhere that the commandment has no applicability to you because you are not of Israel, and not a child of Jacob. But BroRog, if you are a Christian, you are indeed a child of Jacob. And only children of Jacob will be entering through the gates into the New Jerusalem. Where according to Isaiah, the saints will be worshiping God on the Sabbath for all eternity.

What scripture would you use to demonstrate that I am a child of Jacob? I can not find that anywhere.

brakelite
Apr 25th 2009, 11:07 PM
What scripture would you use to demonstrate that I am a child of Jacob? I can not find that anywhere.

The name "Israel" first appears in the Bible in Genesis 32:28 After a night of wrestling with the heavenly visitor (who I personally believe to be Christ Himself) Jacob prevails in his efforts and his name is changed from Jacob, the deceiver or supplanter, to Israel, meaning he will rule. Jacob has prevailed with God and overcome.

At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God's blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the 'Angel' asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies 'my name is Jacob'. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the 'Angel' saying "for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."
Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin.

In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel's descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses "and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh 'Thus saith the Lord,Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me..."
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people.
Did Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Before God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God's chosen able to fulfil the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Abraham also, but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power. Interesting that Adam, Noah, and Israel all failed on points of appetite. (Gen 9:20,21; Exodus 16:27-29.)

It wasn't until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title "Israel" in it's truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Mathew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfilment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Mathew's inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3 .
Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Coll 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.

Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.
So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious. In His temptations in the wilderness, it was appetite that came under particular scrutiny.

What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus' descendants, just as it did to Jacob's descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9).
So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the 'seed' of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham's seed because they are Christ's. They are also heirs according to the promise.
This is not 'replacement ' theology. It is merely a revelation of who true Israel always was and who Israel is now. It is those people, of whatever nation kindred tongue and people, who by faith in the mercy grace and power of God overcome sin and receive Christ's righteousness and forgiveness as a gift and are willing to share that gift with the lost. True Israel was always exclusively those who "as princes had power with God and men and prevailed".
__________________

Studyin'2Show
Apr 25th 2009, 11:34 PM
I see what you mean. However, your 3rd option suggests that we should keep the Sabbath day because it is one of God's commands. And it's this issue of "a commandment" that I am exploring here. I'm still pressing the idea that a commandment impinges heavily on me and demands more of me than a suggestion or a "good idea."

Can you flesh this out further, because I was thinking that I am duty bound to keep a commandment whether it is written on stone or on my heart. Isn't that right?

I mean, I understand your point about our change of attitude such that we want to keep the commandments. It's our wish to always be obedient, etc. I think all Christians agree with this primary axiom.

Even so, the bottom line criteria for whether Christian ought to keep the Sabbath day comes down to a matter of duty. Granting that our attitude should be a desire and a wish to keep the commandments, the prior question is whether keeping the Sabbath day is something that is commanded of all human beings, particularly of me personally.

One way to answer the question is to ascertain whether keeping the Sabbath day is a universal code of conduct which all rational people would agree is a good and commendable behavior, which is why I attempted earlier to contrast the 4th commandment with the 6th commandment. Many theologians recognize that murder is intrinsically wrong, the immorality of murder being self-evident. If someone could demonstrate to me that keeping the Sabbath day was as axiomatic as not committing murder or adultery, then I would not only be obligated to keep the Sabbath day, but I would be happy and willing to do that.

Another way to answer the question is to ascertain whether God or Jesus repeated the commandment in a Christian context such that he obligated all believers, even those outside the Mt. Sinai covenant to keep the Sabbath day.I understand your confusion concerning the term 'commandment'. If you ask the Father to give you clarity on this I'm sure He will. :)

As for 'fleshing out' the whole 'written in our hearts' concept, I thought I did with the example of my relationship with my hubby. Let me tell you with all certainty that my marriage license is not the motivation for my faithfulness to him. It is my love for him. I 'desire' to be only with him. It is like our marriage license has been written on my heart. :idea: In a similar fashion, I do not seek to walk in His righteousness because it is my duty. I am not merely a servant of the Most High as some may see themselves, I have been made a child of the Most High through the blood of Messiah. Do you have children? Possibly grown children? When they are babes you may want them to obey out of obligation, even fear of punishment, but as they come of age (mature) the motivation should change. Do you see what I mean?

Lastly, you mentioned the need to see Yeshua confirm the commandment to be certain that it still applies. Let me submit two points in that regard. First, wouldn't it be more necessary to see something that clearly states that one of God's commands suddenly no longer applied? I mean, which of His other commandments suddenly stopped being relevant? And secondly, I believe Yeshua did indeed confirm the commandment. By His actions and His command for us to follow Him.

Luke 4:16 - So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

God Bless!
Denise

Studyin'2Show
Apr 25th 2009, 11:47 PM
That was excellent, brakelite! Thank you for that.

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