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The Parson
Apr 21st 2009, 03:33 PM
I've been watching the latest of the you can or can't loose your salvation threads and it was similar to all the rest in that one side or the other isn't listening to the other in the slightest bit. Or it just doesn't seem that way.

So, with that said I'd like to see an orderly type discussion where all points of view are examined if that is possible. Here's the deal:


Make your statement with scripture, answer the questions given to you, then allow the next poster to make his or her point and then you'll get the opportunity to ask them questions. Sounds simple doesn't it?
No posts longer than 4 or 5 paragraphs. These endless posts are like reading novels. They go on and on and on. Kinda hard to keep up with so keep it simple. If you need to post more, post it in your next response.

Begin your assertion with:
"I believe you can't or can loose your salvation because (Biblical Reason)" and then give a few of your key reasons. Later on in the conversations you will be able to give more of your biblical reasoning.

Keep it friendly. Personal attacks and snyde remarks will be deleted without warning from me or the BC mods participating.

Who's first?

THOM
Apr 21st 2009, 03:47 PM
I've been watching the latest of the you can or can't loose your salvation threads and it was similar to all the rest in that one side or the other isn't listening to the other in the slightest bit. Or it just doesn't seem that way.

So, with that said I'd like to see an orderly type discussion where all points of view are examined if that is possible. Here's the deal:


Make your statement with scripture, answer the questions given to you, then allow the next poster to make his or her point and then you'll get the opportunity to ask them questions. Sounds simple doesn't it?
No posts longer than 4 or 5 paragraphs. These endless posts are like reading novels. They go on and on and on. Kinda hard to keep up with so keep it simple. If you need to post more, post it in your next response.

Begin your assertion with:
"I believe you can't or can loose your salvation because (Biblical Reason)" and then give a few of your key reasons. Later on in the conversations you will be able to give more of your biblical reasoning.

Keep it friendly. Personal attacks and snyde remarks will be deleted without warning from me or the BC mods participating.

Who's first?

I believe you can't loose your salvation because of what JESUS CHRIST, HIMSELF stated, "MY sheep hear MY Voice, and I know them, and they follow ME: And I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of MY Hand. MY FATHER, which gave them ME, IS GREATER than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of MY FATHER's Hand. I and MY FATHER are ONE. (John 10:27-30)".

The Parson
Apr 21st 2009, 04:36 PM
I believe you can't loose your salvation because of what JESUS CHRIST, HIMSELF stated, "MY sheep hear MY Voice, and I know them, and they follow ME: And I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of MY Hand. MY FATHER, which gave them ME, IS GREATER than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of MY FATHER's Hand. I and MY FATHER are ONE. (John 10:27-30)".I would probably back that one up with Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Notice the Savior said "I never knew you". If these folks had been saved at one time, the Lord couldn't say I never knew you. That would be lieing and we know the Savior cant lie because in John 10 he says I know them.

tango
Apr 21st 2009, 04:46 PM
I would say that it is possible to lose salvation through our own actions. Jesus is clear that nobody can pluck us out of his hand but that doesn't seem to preclude us taking the active decision to walk away.

My verses would start out with these:

Eze 33:18-19 NKJV When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. (19) But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it.

Rev 14:9-12 NKJV Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, (10) he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. (11) And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (12) Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

It seems to me that during the tribulation we will have the choice between showing the patience of the saints, keeping the commandments of God, or turning our back and accepting the mark and worshipping the beast.

I don't think losing salvation is something that can happen by accident, but can't help thinking that our own deliberate actions could result in becoming "unsaved".

The Parson
Apr 21st 2009, 05:05 PM
I would say that it is possible to lose salvation through our own actions. Jesus is clear that nobody can pluck us out of his hand but that doesn't seem to preclude us taking the active decision to walk away.

My verses would start out with these:

Eze 33:18-19 NKJV When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. (19) But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it.

Rev 14:9-12 NKJV Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, (10) he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. (11) And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (12) Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

It seems to me that during the tribulation we will have the choice between showing the patience of the saints, keeping the commandments of God, or turning our back and accepting the mark and worshipping the beast.

I don't think losing salvation is something that can happen by accident, but can't help thinking that our own deliberate actions could result in becoming "unsaved".Then, scripturally at what point does this loss take place. In the previous thread I saw it mentioned that when you sin, you loose it but then wouldn't that make the following verses null and void? Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Why the chastisment if there is no longer a sonship? Verse 9 makes it clear that this is referring to sons and not the lost... Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The Parson
Apr 21st 2009, 05:07 PM
And what about the point that Jesus said he never knew the ones who were at the great white throne? Telling one he knew at one time, the sheep (saved), how could he tell them he didn't know them then?

Slug1
Apr 21st 2009, 05:09 PM
I believe you can loose salvation due to this scripture (to start with):

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Why would Jesus give this warning about overcoming? Consequenses are to have your name blotted from the Book of Life if you don't overcome?

The Parson
Apr 21st 2009, 05:15 PM
I believe you can loose salvation due to this scripture (to start with):

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Why would Jesus give this warning about overcoming? Consequenses are to have your name blotted from the Book of Life if you don't overcome?Good question Slug. My answer is that there are two or more books. The Book of Life where our name is written at birth and the Lambs Book of Life where are names are written when we are born again. Look at the seperate reference to them if you will...

Lamb's book of life
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Book of life
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

-SEEKING-
Apr 21st 2009, 05:15 PM
I believe you can loose salvation due to this scripture (to start with):

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Why would Jesus give this warning about overcoming? Consequenses are to have your name blotted from the Book of Life if you don't overcome?

IDK but to me this sounds more like a promise than a warning.

markedward
Apr 21st 2009, 05:15 PM
Hebrews 6.4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The author of Hebrews directly says that people can "share in the Holy Spirit" and still "fall away". What are they "falling away" from, if not something that they "have once" had to begin with?

And again, he says "It is impossible to restore them again to repentence". He's not saying "It is impossible for them to repent"... he's saying that already were in a state of repentence, then "fell away" from it. They "had been" restored at one point in time, then "fell away", and as a result, they could not be restored again.

Sounds like gaining and then willfully turning away from salvation to me. This isn't the same thing as an external force taking salvation away, or that the person arbitrarily "lost" it. This is describing someone turning away from it after they already had it.

tango
Apr 21st 2009, 05:15 PM
Then, scripturally at what point does this loss take place. In the previous thread I saw it mentioned that when you sin, you loose it but then wouldn't that make the following verses null and void? Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Why the chastisment if there is no longer a sonship? Verse 9 makes it clear that this is referring to sons and not the lost... Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Emphasis in these verses is mine:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

I think if we continue to sin and do not repent it indicates that either we do not care that we have sinned, or we do not believe we have sinned. In either case we are effectively saying we know better than God, and we know where that got Lucifer.


And what about the point that Jesus said he never knew the ones who were at the great white throne? Telling one he knew at one time, the sheep (saved), how could he tell them he didn't know them then?

I believe there are some people who call themselves Christians but who have never made any commitment to Jesus. I'm thinking in terms of people who have "always" been a Christian on the basis they were taken to church as a child and know nothing of life without church attendance but who don't actually know Jesus as their personal Saviour. We know that spending time in church doesn't make someone a Christian any more than spending time in a stable makes them a horse.

The Parson
Apr 21st 2009, 05:17 PM
One other thing to notice. When mentioning the Book of Life we see where there can be a removal but with the Lambs Book of Life we don't.

tango
Apr 21st 2009, 05:19 PM
One other thing to notice. When mentioning the Book of Life we see where there can be a removal but with the Lambs Book of Life we don't.

Do you mean the text doesn't say there can be a removal (i.e. it leaves the question open), or that it explicitly says there cannot be a removal?

The Parson
Apr 21st 2009, 05:21 PM
Emphasis in these verses is mine:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

I think if we continue to sin and do not repent it indicates that either we do not care that we have sinned, or we do not believe we have sinned. In either case we are effectively saying we know better than God, and we know where that got Lucifer.



I believe there are some people who call themselves Christians but who have never made any commitment to Jesus. I'm thinking in terms of people who have "always" been a Christian on the basis they were taken to church as a child and know nothing of life without church attendance but who don't actually know Jesus as their personal Saviour. We know that spending time in church doesn't make someone a Christian any more than spending time in a stable makes them a horse.Well there is the kicker Tango. Who or specifically what is saved scripturally? The flesh, the heart, or the soul???

The Parson
Apr 21st 2009, 05:23 PM
Do you mean the text doesn't say there can be a removal (i.e. it leaves the question open), or that it explicitly says there cannot be a removal?In the book of life passages we see the name being removed. We don't see that in the Lamb's book of Life verses.

My heart's Desire
Apr 21st 2009, 05:30 PM
I've been watching the latest of the you can or can't loose your salvation


No posts longer than 4 or 5 paragraphs. These endless posts are like reading novels. They go on and on and on. Kinda hard to keep up with so keep it simple. If you need to post more, post it in your next response.

I just wanted to say that I appreciate this. I'm a reader and yet I can't read some of these long, long posts either. I understand that it feels as if one has to write a long draw out thing to make a point, (I know, as I'm a detail person also even in everyday speech).
By the time though that I get to the end of a long post, I've lost the point. Anyway, thank you.

The Parson
Apr 21st 2009, 05:37 PM
I just wanted to say that I appreciate this. I'm a reader and yet I can't read some of these long, long posts either. I understand that it feels as if one has to write a long draw out thing to make a point, (I know, as I'm a detail person also even in everyday speech).
By the time though that I get to the end of a long post, I've lost the point. Anyway, thank you.It's necessary some times because of all the threads on subjects like this one. You can get lost in the pounds of paperwork.

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 05:38 PM
I would say that it is possible to lose salvation through our own actions. Jesus is clear that nobody can pluck us out of his hand but that doesn't seem to preclude us taking the active decision to walk away.

My verses would start out with these:

Eze 33:18-19 NKJV When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. (19) But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it.

Greetings Tango,

My question for you is who is Ezekiel speaking to in this passage? I believe Ezekiel is speaking for God to the "house of Israel." The covenant people of God. They are already in covenant relationship with the LORD, and this prophecy is calling them to obedience, not salvation. If they claim they are righteous, and die in iniquity, God will judge them accordingly. You cannot claim to be in covenant with God, having been made righteous, then die in sins. For that would make God a liar!

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
Apr 21st 2009, 05:38 PM
IDK but to me this sounds more like a promise than a warning.



Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I
will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


Why can't it be both a promise and a warning? The condition in this verse is that one must overcome. What if that person doesn't overcome? Why would Jesus not blot them out of the book of life, and why would He not confess their name before the Father and before His angels, if they failed to overcome? Why even mention the fact of overcoming if it has no actual relevance to anything?

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 05:46 PM
Hebrews 6.4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The author of Hebrews directly says that people can "share in the Holy Spirit" and still "fall away". What are they "falling away" from, if not something that they "have once" had to begin with?

And again, he says "It is impossible to restore them again to repentence". He's not saying "It is impossible for them to repent"... he's saying that already were in a state of repentence, then "fell away" from it. They "had been" restored at one point in time, then "fell away", and as a result, they could not be restored again.

Sounds like gaining and then willfully turning away from salvation to me. This isn't the same thing as an external force taking salvation away, or that the person arbitrarily "lost" it. This is describing someone turning away from it after they already had it.

Greetings Markedward,

I read this passage of Heb differently. I view "it is impossible" as simply what it says. How can a Christian fall away to never be restored again since Scripture tells us we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and that Christ will never leave nor forsake His own? How can this be for our good since all things work together for good to them that love God?

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 05:54 PM
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I
will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Why can't it be both a promise and a warning? The condition in this verse is that one must overcome. What if that person doesn't overcome? Why would Jesus not blot them out of the book of life, and why would He not confess their name before the Father and before His angels, if they failed to overcome? Why even mention the fact of overcoming if it has no actual relevance to anything?

Hi Diva,

I believe its a promise because of the preceding verse. The overcomers are those who are worthy because they have not defiled themselves, therefore they will walk with Him arrayed in white. Because they are overcomers, they have His promise never to be blotted out of the book of life. In other words they will never experience death, because they have been given eternal life in Christ.

Re 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Many Blessings,
RW

copper25
Apr 21st 2009, 05:57 PM
"To him that overcometh" is a statement we here a lot in Revelation

Now my question is by who strengthening us, can we overcome, by our own hand or by the strength of the Lord? It is etheir going to be one or another. And examine this text

Ephesians 2:8-9

8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

One more thing, an observation, people tend to focus on man doing this, or man doing that, but it is only by the providence of God we are what are, and for that matter even can even be conquerors in a twisted and soul consuming world such as the one we currently live in.

The Parson
Apr 21st 2009, 06:00 PM
Whoa!!! Lest back up and see if all questions have been answered before we proceed.

VerticalReality
Apr 21st 2009, 06:05 PM
My personal view . . .

A person can choose to turn from the salvation they have been given in Christ Jesus (Hebrews 6). However, those who are His will not be taken out of His hand by anything . . . sin included. Why? Because those who are His and refuse to turn away from Him . . . He will guide them and lead them to repentance. They will not remain in willful sin. Our Lord will not allow them to remain in sin. He will chasten them and correct them until they repent.

In the case of Matthew 7 where Jesus says, "I never knew you . . . "

This is true. He never did know them and they never were His even though they may have thought they were. You see, the folks in Hebrews 6 will know beyond a shadow of a doubt when they stand before the Lord that they were not His because they rejected Him. Therefore, they will not say, "Lord, Lord did we not do this or that in your name?" They will know full well that they chose to turn their backs on Him. However, those in Matthew 7 will actually believe that they were Christians, yet because they refused in their heart to humble themselves and obey the Lord they will be told they were never His and He never knew them.

Matthew 7 and Hebrews 6 are talking about two different sets of people in my opinion.

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 06:10 PM
Rev 14:9-12 NKJV Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, (10) he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. (11) And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (12) Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

It seems to me that during the tribulation we will have the choice between showing the patience of the saints, keeping the commandments of God, or turning our back and accepting the mark and worshipping the beast.

I don't think losing salvation is something that can happen by accident, but can't help thinking that our own deliberate actions could result in becoming "unsaved".

Hi again Tango,

What would make you think that Christians (not those in name only, who are no Christians) would worship the beast and receive his mark?

Many Blessings,
RW

tango
Apr 21st 2009, 06:16 PM
Greetings Tango,

My question for you is who is Ezekiel speaking to in this passage? I believe Ezekiel is speaking for God to the "house of Israel." The covenant people of God. They are already in covenant relationship with the LORD, and this prophecy is calling them to obedience, not salvation. If they claim they are righteous, and die in iniquity, God will judge them accordingly. You cannot claim to be in covenant with God, having been made righteous, then die in sins. For that would make God a liar!

Many Blessings,
RW

Ezekiel does seem to be speaking to God's chosen people. My concern with putting too much down to the context of the precise time is that we end up demoting most of the Bible to nothing more than a history book.

When the passage in Ezekiel is coupled with the passage in Revelation I believe it is saying that we can lose our salvation if we wilfully defy God and remain in such a state.

tango
Apr 21st 2009, 06:35 PM
Hi again Tango,

What would make you think that Christians (not those in name only, who are no Christians) would worship the beast and receive his mark?

Many Blessings,
RW

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

To me this verse implies that some may not overcome. In practical terms it's possible that some will deny Christ in the face of torture (just like Peter did).

Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Some saints will be overcome in the sense they will be killed. I don't see it as impossible that some will be overcome in the sense they decide to take the mark to stop the torture/persecution.

divaD
Apr 21st 2009, 06:45 PM
I believe its a promise because of the preceding verse. The overcomers are those who are worthy because they have not
defiled themselves, therefore they will walk with Him arrayed in white. Because they are overcomers, they have His promise
never to be blotted out of the book of life. In other words they will never experience death, because they have been given
eternal life in Christ.



Hi Rw. I can see your point, and I would agree. As a matter of fact, I've already agreed that it's referring to a promise. But I also agreed that it's a warning. How can it not also be a warning? It seems pretty clear to me. To not overcome would mean that one's name gets blotted out of the book of life. If it doesn't mean that, then what does it mean if one doesn't overcome? Does everyone overcome? If they do, why then bother mentioning overcoming in the first place? This is just one of these verses that can be interpreted several different ways and still be correct. That's the only logical conclusion I can come up with.

Slug1
Apr 21st 2009, 06:52 PM
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

To me this verse implies that some may not overcome. In practical terms it's possible that some will deny Christ in the face of torture (just like Peter did).

Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Some saints will be overcome in the sense they will be killed. I don't see it as impossible that some will be overcome in the sense they decide to take the mark to stop the torture/persecution.Yep, walking up to that guillotine I'm sure will cause some to crack like Peter (just from verbal questions) did but in their case... take the mark to live and thus... forsake the gift of salvation. The word overcome means just that... to overcome.

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 07:00 PM
Ezekiel does seem to be speaking to God's chosen people. My concern with putting too much down to the context of the precise time is that we end up demoting most of the Bible to nothing more than a history book.

When the passage in Ezekiel is coupled with the passage in Revelation I believe it is saying that we can lose our salvation if we wilfully defy God and remain in such a state.

Okay Tango, I see what you mean. But isn't this implying those who wilfully defy God and remain in such a state are Christians? I can understand thinking that some who are false professors of Christianity falling away because they were never saved to begin with...but how is this Christians losing their salvation? What Christian will wilfully defy God without repentance, and chastening from the Lord? Wouldn't it be those who have never been born again, who are wilfully defying God and remaining in that state? If that's the case, its not Christians losing their salvation, its simply a case of false professors or those remaining in unbelief.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 07:06 PM
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

To me this verse implies that some may not overcome. In practical terms it's possible that some will deny Christ in the face of torture (just like Peter did).

But Tango, Peter did overcome. He did deny Christ, but he did not stay in a state of denial. Some may deny Christ in the face of torture, even Christians, how does that make them lose their salvation? Are we saved by Christ' atoning work, or are we saved by our own righteousness?



Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Some saints will be overcome in the sense they will be killed. I don't see it as impossible that some will be overcome in the sense they decide to take the mark to stop the torture/persecution.

It is not Christians who are taking the mark of the beast. It is those who are worshipping the beast and his image, not Christians. Even if/when the saints are overcome in this life and killed, that simply means they have gone to be with the Lord.

Many Blessings,
RW

markedward
Apr 21st 2009, 07:12 PM
Some may deny Christ in the face of torture, even Christians, how does that make them lose their salvation?You know, John defines "antichrist" as anyone (particularly from within the church; "they went out from us") who denies Christ.

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 07:12 PM
Hi Rw. I can see your point, and I would agree. As a matter of fact, I've already agreed that it's referring to a promise. But I also agreed that it's a warning. How can it not also be a warning? It seems pretty clear to me. To not overcome would mean that one's name gets blotted out of the book of life. If it doesn't mean that, then what does it mean if one doesn't overcome? Does everyone overcome? If they do, why then bother mentioning overcoming in the first place? This is just one of these verses that can be interpreted several different ways and still be correct. That's the only logical conclusion I can come up with.

Well Diva, I can't argue with your reasoning. I simply see this not as a warning at all, but a wonderful promise that Christ will not lose the overcomers. The verse says "will not be blotted out", it does not say "might not be blotted out". I read it as not even a hint that names of overcomers can be blotted out. To me its like saying, "here is my promise to all who overcome, your names are written in My book forever."

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 07:18 PM
You know, John defines "antichrist" as anyone (particularly from within the church; "they went out from us") who denies Christ.

I totally agree Mark! Antichrists are not Christians, and the fact that "they went out from us" is proof that they were never of us, or they were never Christians.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Apr 21st 2009, 07:49 PM
My personal view . . .

A person can choose to turn from the salvation they have been given in Christ Jesus (Hebrews 6). However, those who are His will not be taken out of His hand by anything . . . sin included. Why? Because those who are His and refuse to turn away from Him . . . He will guide them and lead them to repentance. They will not remain in willful sin. Our Lord will not allow them to remain in sin. He will chasten them and correct them until they repent.

In the case of Matthew 7 where Jesus says, "I never knew you . . . "

This is true. He never did know them and they never were His even though they may have thought they were. You see, the folks in Hebrews 6 will know beyond a shadow of a doubt when they stand before the Lord that they were not His because they rejected Him. Therefore, they will not say, "Lord, Lord did we not do this or that in your name?" They will know full well that they chose to turn their backs on Him. However, those in Matthew 7 will actually believe that they were Christians, yet because they refused in their heart to humble themselves and obey the Lord they will be told they were never His and He never knew them.

Matthew 7 and Hebrews 6 are talking about two different sets of people in my opinion.

You know what I've come to believe VR...I believe a person can choose to walk away or even fall away from faith, but not salvation. Why? Because salvation is of the LORD!

I think many professors of Christianity are leaning on a faith that does not come from God. This faith or belief is natural, and makes us believe (have some kind of faith, just not saving faith) for a time, and in some instances even our whole lives. But truth is that this natural faith will not satisfy God in the Judgment, because this faith is always leaning or looking to ourselves, rather than looking to the Savior. Natural faith/belief always seeks to understand how "I" can be the person God intends me to be. But saving faith/belief always seeks to understand how and even why "Christ" has saved me and carries me.

Many Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 21st 2009, 07:53 PM
You know what I've come to believe VR...I believe a person can choose to walk away or even fall away from faith, but not salvation. Why? Because salvation is of the LORD!

I think many professors of Christianity are leaning on a faith that does not come from God. This faith or belief is natural, and makes us believe (have some kind of faith, just not saving faith) for a time, and in some instances even our whole lives. But truth is that this natural faith will not satisfy God in the Judgment, because this faith is always leaning or looking to ourselves, rather than looking to the Savior. Natural faith/belief always seeks to understand how "I" can be the person God intends me to be. But saving faith/belief always seeks to understand how and even why "Christ" has saved me and carries me.

Many Blessings,
RW

Well Stated Roger, well stated... No need that I should post.... Next topic.... :)

9Marksfan
Apr 21st 2009, 08:52 PM
You know what I've come to believe VR...I believe a person can choose to walk away or even fall away from faith, but not salvation. Why? Because salvation is of the LORD!

I think many professors of Christianity are leaning on a faith that does not come from God. This faith or belief is natural, and makes us believe (have some kind of faith, just not saving faith) for a time, and in some instances even our whole lives. But truth is that this natural faith will not satisfy God in the Judgment, because this faith is always leaning or looking to ourselves, rather than looking to the Savior. Natural faith/belief always seeks to understand how "I" can be the person God intends me to be. But saving faith/belief always seeks to understand how and even why "Christ" has saved me and carries me.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger

I completely agree - I think this is the key to understanding why people appear to have genuine faith, yet fall away completely - never to return. There are, as you say, types of faith that are not GENUINE, God-given, saving faith - Simon Magus is an example, sois Demas, so are those who "believe for a while" in the parable of the sower - I also believe that the foolish virgins/builders, the bad fish/servants, the tares and the goats all fall into this category. They all appear to be Christians and they are side by side with Christians - they're probabbly even considered to be Christians - but they're not, because they don't do the will of God - they're hearers only. No change, no transformed heart.

I like your emphasis on self in natural faith - that reminds me of my sister, who sadly is becoming more and more religious, yet more and more self-obsessed - Mark Driscoll puts it perfectly when he says "Religion is about me, the gospel is about Jesus." Perfectly put.

:OFFT: Those who focus on Jesus will never be lost. Those who get distracted by self or anything else will end up lost unless they get their eyes back on Jesus. That's the perseverance of the saints. And all the elect will persevere! :pp

karenoka27
Apr 21st 2009, 09:04 PM
Stepping in a little late but here goes:

"I believe you can't or can loose your salvation because (Biblical Reason)" and then give a few of your key reasons. Later on in the conversations you will be able to give more of your biblical reasoning.

I believe with all of my heart that I cannot lose my salvation because:
1. I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and I don't believe anyone has the power to undo what God Himself has done.
Ephesians 1:13-"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."
2. If I was not saved by works, I don't believe I have the power to keep my salvation through works.
Ephesians 2:8-10-8-"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
3. I believe that works we do after salvation are because because we use the gifts God has given us after salvation. I believe there may be a loss of reward in heaven for not using them,however, I do not believe that this would lead to a loss of salvation.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15-Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

9Marksfan
Apr 21st 2009, 09:14 PM
My answer is that there are two or more books.

I agree.


The Book of Life where our name is written at birth

Any Scripture for that?


and the Lamb's Book of Life where are names are written when we are born again.

Again, any Scripture for that contention? I think Scripture teaches otherwise. I know your views on KJV, Tim, but please look at some other essentially literal ones, where the verse is no different in the Alexandrian text from the Antiochan:-

ESV And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

NASB All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

But if you will insist on the KJV, then it's really clear later on in ch 17...

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Rev 17:8 KJV


Look at the seperate reference to them if you will...

Lamb's book of life
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I like your point - if our names could be removed from the Lamb's Book of Life, then this verse would be of no comfort to anyone - John would have to say "which remain written..."


Book of life

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I like the distinction you've made - it's helpful in understanding these issues - thanks, Tim!

tango
Apr 21st 2009, 11:09 PM
Okay Tango, I see what you mean. But isn't this implying those who wilfully defy God and remain in such a state are Christians? I can understand thinking that some who are false professors of Christianity falling away because they were never saved to begin with...but how is this Christians losing their salvation? What Christian will wilfully defy God without repentance, and chastening from the Lord? Wouldn't it be those who have never been born again, who are wilfully defying God and remaining in that state? If that's the case, its not Christians losing their salvation, its simply a case of false professors or those remaining in unbelief.

Many Blessings,
RW

People who are false professors will appear to fall away but in fact will not have had anything from which to fall. It's not unheard of for people to profess Christ but subsequently fall away, I did exactly that myself during my teenage years. In many ways it's quite easy, the sins that initially cause a pang of conscience slowly lose their ability to shock and the decline accelerates.


But Tango, Peter did overcome. He did deny Christ, but he did not stay in a state of denial. Some may deny Christ in the face of torture, even Christians, how does that make them lose their salvation? Are we saved by Christ' atoning work, or are we saved by our own righteousness?

Peter did overcome but only because Jesus forgave him. Had Jesus been less forgiving Peter would have been cast aside - Jesus himself said that if we deny him before men he will deny us before God. Luckily for Peter (and for me, and doubtless others) we get the chance to be forgiven.



It is not Christians who are taking the mark of the beast. It is those who are worshipping the beast and his image, not Christians. Even if/when the saints are overcome in this life and killed, that simply means they have gone to be with the Lord.

Many Blessings,
RW
My point about being overcome was that if a saint dies in the faith they will receive their reward - Rev 14:13 is clear in this. But if a saint is overcome because of renouncing their faith what hope is there for them - Rev 14:9-11 is pretty clear about that too. Just as Peter denied Jesus when the pressure was on, so might we - if it can happen to Peter (the one given the revelation of who Jesus really was, after all) how can any of us be so confident we won't fail - Peter did that too.

Butch5
Apr 22nd 2009, 12:17 AM
I've been watching the latest of the you can or can't loose your salvation threads and it was similar to all the rest in that one side or the other isn't listening to the other in the slightest bit. Or it just doesn't seem that way.

So, with that said I'd like to see an orderly type discussion where all points of view are examined if that is possible. Here's the deal:


Make your statement with scripture, answer the questions given to you, then allow the next poster to make his or her point and then you'll get the opportunity to ask them questions. Sounds simple doesn't it?
No posts longer than 4 or 5 paragraphs. These endless posts are like reading novels. They go on and on and on. Kinda hard to keep up with so keep it simple. If you need to post more, post it in your next response.
Begin your assertion with:
"I believe you can't or can loose your salvation because (Biblical Reason)" and then give a few of your key reasons. Later on in the conversations you will be able to give more of your biblical reasoning.

Keep it friendly. Personal attacks and snyde remarks will be deleted without warning from me or the BC mods participating.

Who's first?


I believe you can lose your salvation because Jesus warned His apostles, His elect, or chosen ones if you will, to be carefaul they did not end up in hell. He said this to Peter, John, Matthew and the rest,


Mark 9:43-50 ( KJV )
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Butch5
Apr 22nd 2009, 12:27 AM
Hi Rw. I can see your point, and I would agree. As a matter of fact, I've already agreed that it's referring to a promise. But I also agreed that it's a warning. How can it not also be a warning? It seems pretty clear to me. To not overcome would mean that one's name gets blotted out of the book of life. If it doesn't mean that, then what does it mean if one doesn't overcome? Does everyone overcome? If they do, why then bother mentioning overcoming in the first place? This is just one of these verses that can be interpreted several different ways and still be correct. That's the only logical conclusion I can come up with.

You have it correct. It is encouragement for this church to continue in the fight, because ifthey don't they will be removed.

The Parson
Apr 22nd 2009, 12:50 AM
I have to back up myself and ask a question again. Hey Tango. Who or specifically what is saved scripturally? The flesh, the heart, or the soul???

My heart's Desire
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:53 AM
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I
will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


Why can't it be both a promise and a warning? The condition in this verse is that one must overcome. What if that person doesn't overcome? Why would Jesus not blot them out of the book of life, and why would He not confess their name before the Father and before His angels, if they failed to overcome? Why even mention the fact of overcoming if it has no actual relevance to anything?


I believe it has relevance in this. Who is the overcomer?
1 John 5: 1-5
Mainly verse 5. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God. The only ones who can overcome are believers and really it was Jesus Who overcame the world and our belief in Him and that He did makes us overcomers.
As verse 4 says only what is born of God can overcome.
I think a person can look at this in one of two ways. They either believe that believers are already overcomers in Christ or that they can personally overcome because they are Christ's. I tend to believe that a believer is already in the position of being an overcomer.

My heart's Desire
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:01 AM
I believe you can lose your salvation because Jesus warned His apostles, His elect, or chosen ones if you will, to be carefaul they did not end up in hell. He said this to Peter, John, Matthew and the rest,


Mark 9:43-50 ( KJV )
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
So then, since we all sin, why weren't there more people cutting off their feet, plucking eyes out etc so that they wouldn't go into the fire that is not quenched?

My heart's Desire
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:09 AM
People who are false professors will appear to fall away but in fact will not have had anything from which to fall. It's not unheard of for people to profess Christ but subsequently fall away, I did exactly that myself during my teenage years. In many ways it's quite easy, the sins that initially cause a pang of conscience slowly lose their ability to shock and the decline accelerates.


Peter did overcome but only because Jesus forgave him. Had Jesus been less forgiving Peter would have been cast aside - Jesus himself said that if we deny him before men he will deny us before God. Luckily for Peter (and for me, and doubtless others) we get the chance to be forgiven.


My point about being overcome was that if a saint dies in the faith they will receive their reward - Rev 14:13 is clear in this. But if a saint is overcome because of renouncing their faith what hope is there for them - Rev 14:9-11 is pretty clear about that too. Just as Peter denied Jesus when the pressure was on, so might we - if it can happen to Peter (the one given the revelation of who Jesus really was, after all) how can any of us be so confident we won't fail - Peter did that too.I just wanted to add something to your comments.
After Jesus' resurrection we can't help but notice that Jesus came to Peter specifically asking him "Peter, do you love me".
Also, there was Thomas the doubter. Jesus specifically took time with him, to show him in grace evidence that He had risen and was alive. If Peter and Thomas were in danger of losing salvation, I'd say that Jesus went the extra mile to make sure that they didn't. Peter through denial of His Lord and Thomas in his unbelief. Interesting I'd say.

((Parson, sorry if I'm getting out of form here. :D)

9Marksfan
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:49 AM
People who are false professors will appear to fall away but in fact will not have had anything from which to fall.

They did - they adhered to the truth - they held on to it (intellectually and possibly emotionally) for a while, but then fell away from it.


It's not unheard of for people to profess Christ but subsequently fall away,

Not just unheard of - I believe this happens to the VAST majority of those who profess Christ - they are the "many" in the gospels - the first three categories in the parable of the sower - those who persevere are always the "few" who bear fruit - in differing degrees (like in the parable of the sower) but bearing fruit nonetheless.


I did exactly that myself during my teenage years. In many ways it's quite easy, the sins that initially cause a pang of conscience slowly lose their ability to shock and the decline accelerates.

Exactly. But the fact that you're "back" now and going on shows Christ's persevering love for you! :pp


Peter did overcome but only because Jesus forgave him.

Actually it was because Jesus had prayed for him (Lk 22:32) - and the answer was never in doubt: "and WHEN you return" not "IF you return".


Had Jesus been less forgiving Peter would have been cast aside -

But Jesus is not more forgiving or less forgiving - He is either merciful or not merciful - He has mercy upon whom He wills. He had mercy on Peter, he didn't have mercy upon Judas. Yet Judas chose to betray Christ.


Jesus himself said that if we deny him before men he will deny us before God.

Indeed.


Luckily for Peter (and for me, and doubtless others) we get the chance to be forgiven.

So it's down to us, in the end? I would argue that the key issue here is that Jesus intercedes for His own and THAT is what causes us to persevere (Heb 7:25).


My point about being overcome was that if a saint dies in the faith they will receive their reward - Rev 14:13 is clear in this. But if a saint is overcome because of renouncing their faith what hope is there for them - Rev 14:9-11 is pretty clear about that too.

Leaving aside escatological views for now, but however we interpret worshipping the beast, it's clear from Rev 13:8 and 17:9 that it's those who don't have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life who worship the beast and marvel at him - if we do, it shows that our names aren't written (ie we were never saved in the first place).


Just as Peter denied Jesus when the pressure was on, so might we - if it can happen to Peter (the one given the revelation of who Jesus really was, after all) how can any of us be so confident we won't fail - Peter did that too.

Of course we can all fall - and do - but Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would not fail UTTERLY (the Greek word He uses is where we get the word "eclipse" from) - Peter fell BADLY - his faith was ALMOST snuffed out - but not quite - it was the look from Jesus that melted his heart to tears. What was the one vestige of faith Peter had left? A SENSITIVE CONSCIENCE. Judas did not have that - he felt remorse and guilt, but that's not the same thing - he felt sorry for himself - it was a sorrow unto death, for it did not drive him to Christ - Peter was drawn to the empty tomb and was blessed to meet the risen Christ.

Butch5
Apr 22nd 2009, 12:23 PM
So then, since we all sin, why weren't there more people cutting off their feet, plucking eyes out etc so that they wouldn't go into the fire that is not quenched?

I guess they would rather sin and go to he'll, than cut something off. Seriously though, Jesus' point is that sin is that serious. However, you did not address the issue, why did Jesus say that to His personally chosen ones?

DeafPosttrib
Apr 22nd 2009, 01:14 PM
The teaching of unconditional eternal security salvation doctrine do have lot of problems.

I wish I could believe them, and love it.

The Parson awares that I am Baptist. I used to believe in unconditional security salvation doctrine early in my Christian life. I thought Baptist teaching the truth and sound doctrines from Bible. Because, many Baptists say, "I am a Bible believer"(the reason is, they always use KJV).

Throughout years, as I have been study and reading Bible. I have seen many passages did mentioned of warnings and conditionals.

Matt. 25:14-30 is the one passage that hit me the most whilst myself was a securist.

Matt. 25:14-30 talks about the parable of three servants with their talents. My understanding of thee servants with their talents, show that they are already belong to their master(Christ) at the first place. Master gives talents to three servants, and he expects them to use them. Master doesn't care how big or small duty what we are doing. He is interesting in us that we ought to use them and to obey Him.

A servant have a talent. He could have did use one talent to serve Lord. What if suppose, servant's master comes, and see servant did use one talent, then Lord would have saying to this servant. "Well done, thou faithful servant." Then, this servant could have been increase to two talents. A servant who did use one talent, that his works shall be revealed at the judgment day. He could have been called. "Well done, thou faithful servant, and come into the Kingdom of God".

But, Matt. 25:25-30 telling us, this servant hide his talent before the master, that he doesn't want to show it to his master. That means, he do nothing for his master. Then, the master(Christ) would say to this ervant, "You wicked and slothful servant!" Then, verse 30 says, this same servant who hide talent, shall be cast away into everlasting fire.

Therefore, Matt. 25:26-30 don't support the teaching of unconditional security salvation or so called, OSAS.

Because, Matt. 25:14-30 teaching us, that we as servants are responsible to use our talents, and to obey Christ. By the time, the judgment day comes follow at Second Advent. Christ shall judge our works. If we fail to serve Lord, and not use our talents, we would be end up in everlasting fire.

Later today, I will make more posts on passages from Bible to prove that salvation is conditional.

To be continued...

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

VerticalReality
Apr 22nd 2009, 02:18 PM
You know what I've come to believe VR...I believe a person can choose to walk away or even fall away from faith, but not salvation. Why? Because salvation is of the LORD!

I think many professors of Christianity are leaning on a faith that does not come from God. This faith or belief is natural, and makes us believe (have some kind of faith, just not saving faith) for a time, and in some instances even our whole lives. But truth is that this natural faith will not satisfy God in the Judgment, because this faith is always leaning or looking to ourselves, rather than looking to the Savior. Natural faith/belief always seeks to understand how "I" can be the person God intends me to be. But saving faith/belief always seeks to understand how and even why "Christ" has saved me and carries me.

Many Blessings,
RW

What would you reference that would outline how someone could taste the heavenly gift and be a partaker of the Holy Spirit just based upon natural faith? Also, how would someone be enlightened by natural faith?

BroRog
Apr 22nd 2009, 02:29 PM
I believe you can loose salvation due to this scripture (to start with):

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Why would Jesus give this warning about overcoming? Consequenses are to have your name blotted from the Book of Life if you don't overcome?

Is that a warning or a simple declarative?

VerticalReality
Apr 22nd 2009, 02:29 PM
:OFFT: Those who focus on Jesus will never be lost. Those who get distracted by self or anything else will end up lost unless they get their eyes back on Jesus. That's the perseverance of the saints. And all the elect will persevere! :pp

But how can one "end up lost" if they never were found? Also, I'm not sure I know one single Christian EVER who didn't have a little bit of "I" mixed in somewhere. If they didn't have a little bit of "I" then they would be perfect and not in need of a Savior.

VerticalReality
Apr 22nd 2009, 02:38 PM
Of course we can all fall - and do - but Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would not fail UTTERLY (the Greek word He uses is where we get the word "eclipse" from)

Why did Jesus need to pray for something that was impossible? The view seems to be that if Peter had saving faith then it was impossible for him to fall away regardless.

BroRog
Apr 22nd 2009, 02:45 PM
Hebrews 6.4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The author of Hebrews directly says that people can "share in the Holy Spirit" and still "fall away". What are they "falling away" from, if not something that they "have once" had to begin with?

And again, he says "It is impossible to restore them again to repentence". He's not saying "It is impossible for them to repent"... he's saying that already were in a state of repentence, then "fell away" from it. They "had been" restored at one point in time, then "fell away", and as a result, they could not be restored again.

Sounds like gaining and then willfully turning away from salvation to me. This isn't the same thing as an external force taking salvation away, or that the person arbitrarily "lost" it. This is describing someone turning away from it after they already had it.

I wonder if the enlightenment, etc. translates into salvation? That is, has Paul described a saved person, or does the word "taste" suggest something else that came short of it?

I wonder if the word "taste" is being used idiomatically like we would use the phrase "dip your toe in the water?"

If you dip your toes in the water, you try something tentatively because you are not sure whether it will work or not.

The Parson
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:04 PM
OK, hold the boat guys... This is heading in the same direction as every other thread. Honestly, one side really not listening to the other. For instance, I've asked one simple question twice and it still hasn't been addressed. Let me ask you all then...

What is it that is saved about us? Flesh, Mind, or Soul???

VerticalReality
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:12 PM
What is it that is saved about us? Flesh, Mind, or Soul???

I would say none of those.

9Marksfan
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:20 PM
But how can one "end up lost" if they never were found?

The true experience of lostness does not manifest itself until after we die - that was what I meant. But, yes, they were never "found" - although probably everyone thought they were - including themselves...


Also, I'm not sure I know one single Christian EVER who didn't have a little bit of "I" mixed in somewhere. If they didn't have a little bit of "I" then they would be perfect and not in need of a Savior.

OK - I'm not preaching perfectionism and didn't mean to - apologies - what I meant is that self ends up taking pre-eminence, not Christ. He must increase, we must decrease.

Slug1
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:23 PM
Is that a warning or a simple declarative?Is there a difference? Those that don't... get blotted out! Take it the way ya want.

9Marksfan
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:23 PM
Why did Jesus need to pray for something that was impossible? The view seems to be that if Peter had saving faith then it was impossible for him to fall away regardless.

No - that's completely NOT my view - in fact I don't know anyone who really believes that (except for greasy grace OSAS folks, I guess). I formly believe that, had Jesus not prayed for Peter, his faith WOULD have failed completely and, like Judas, he would have been lost forever.

I believe we are kept first and foremost by the prayers of our Great High Priest - through faith - not BY faith through His prayers.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:24 PM
The Parson,

"The book of life" is obivously, speaking of people's names are written in this book speaks of have eternal life with Christ-salvation. Many of us know this verse better. No question.

Rev. 3:5 speaks very clear, Christ promises us, anyone who overcome the world at death, their names shall not remove away from the book of life. That means, anyone who is endure their life while facing spiritual warfare with temptations, persecutions, and trials. Anyone who is endure throughout them all the way to their death, then, they will victory over them. Therefore their names will be ever remain in the book of life.

Or, in other word, Christ warns us, if anyone fails to overcome them in the midst of their lifetime, and turn away back to world again. By the time, person dies without overcome them. Their names might be removed away from the book of life.

Notice next verse - Rev. 3:6 says, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

This verse means that anyone who have an ear(eye-deaf person), let them KNOW the warning from the Word of God.

Yes, Rev. 3:5 tells us it is clear conditional that we must have eternal life, in order to overcome the world in our lifetime till we die or Lord comes. Or, if we quit serve the Lord, and stop fight against the world, then we will not have the victory at the end according Matt. 7:14; Matt. 10:22; and Matt. 24:13.

Also, Rev. 3:5 does have a refer verse, which speak of 'book of life'. It finds in Exodus 32:31-33.

Exodus 32:31- "And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold."

Moses continued - Ex. 32:32, "Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Then, the Lord said to Moses of verse 33: "And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Whosever hath sinned against me, him WILL I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK.' "

Lord said to him, if anyone who sinned against Him, He would removed their names away from his book. Obivously speak of 'book of life'.

Therefore, Exodus 32:33 doesn't support OSAS or unconditional eternal security salvation doctrine.

Both Exodus 32:33 and Rev. 3:5 telling us the same thing, if we fail to overcome the world, then our names might be removed away from the book of life.

What would be happen to person, after person's name is blot out of the book of life? The answer is find in Rev. 20:15 - "And whosever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Also, in Rev. 2:11, Christ said, "He that hath an ear, LET HIM HEAR what the Spirit saith unto the churches; 'He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.' "

This verse 11 tells us very clear with promise and warning. It promises us, if anyone overcoming the world, will not suffer the second death. Or, in other word, what if anyone fails to overcome them at death, will suffer the second death.

'The second death', which speaks of the lake of fire - Rev. 20:14-15.

Therefore, Rev. 2:11 shows us it is clearly conditional, that we must avoid suffer the second death, by overcome the world in our lifetime till we die or Lord comes. Or, if we fail to overcome them by the time we die or Lord comes, we shall spend suffering in the lake of fire forever and ever....

Rev. 2:11 and Rev. 3:5 both do not support OSAS or unconditional eternal security salvation doctrine. But, also, throughout whole context of Revelation chapter 2 and 3 did mentioned of promises, and warnings. Obivously, all churches were given warnings with conditionals from Christ's words. We ought listen His words.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:32 PM
The Parson asks us of his question, what things to saved us- flesh? Mind? Soul?

My answer is both flesh and soul.

Please look to Matthew 10:28, Christ said: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy BOTH soul and body(flesh) in hell."

That why, Christ came to earth to died on the cross for us. So, He became the firstfruit of the resurrection, that means, he is the first person to became alive or quicked from the dead- in real body include with his soul too.

Without have Christ, then, our hope is worthless and doom.

If we reject Christ, then, our soul and body both shall be spend eternal in lake of fire.

Very simple and plain.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The Parson
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:33 PM
I would say none of those.Actually VR, it's the soul... James:1:21: Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Seems like everybody is looking at what the flesh does and ignores what it is that is really saved and secured... And John said: 1st John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Plain and simple, once the soul is saved (born again) it CAN NOT SIN. Before the rebirth the soul was really at the mercy of the flesh but praise God, no longer. (And please don't say I'm saying you can get saved and then live any way you want to. That's foolishness!!!)

All these acts of the flesh that are being described by everybody don't take into account that only the soul is saved. That's why we are told: Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And honestly the only real way to mortify the deeds of the body is to be born again. Not of natural deeds but spiritual. There seems to be a lack of understanding between the spiritual and the natural. Nicodemus had the same problem understanding this in John 3.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:46 PM
Christ said in Rev. 3:3 "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. [b]IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a THIEF, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

This is very clear warning words from Christ.

'Thief' is more than just rapture. Also, it represents of being robbed being caught without expecting.

In Matt 24:39-44, Christ explained about 'thief'. Verse 38-39 gives us the picture of Noah's days, when people were doing errand things, and normal life, and not expected of flood suddenly came and TOOK them away, it means that, flood suddenly came upon them, and killed them all completely. It is the picture of judgment.

Christ continued verse 40-42, Christ uses illustration of two persons in the same place. For example, two persons sleep on same bed. One a person is being caught up, and another person is left on bed. This is the picture of thief.

Matt. 24:40-1 is not always mean 'rapture' for the pretrib coming. Also, it is the picture of judgment.

Luke 17:34-37 described thief more clear.

Luke 17:34-36 described same as Matt. 24:40-41. But, disciples don't understand what Christ was talking about.

Then, Christ said to them of verse 37- "'Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Eagles represent angels. When Christ shall come with his angels. He shalls send his angels to grab all unbelievers who are not watch, will become into group- "goats", will be end up in lake of fire according Matt. 25:31-46.

What IF we do not watch and ready for His coming, we might end up as thief, as we would be in goat with unbelievers, cast awya into lake of fire.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The Parson
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:53 PM
PD, with the understanding I just presented in the previous post can't even fathom that applying to really and honestly born again new creatures. Honestly, once a believer is a believer, how can he be an unbeliever once again. That is when dealing with the spiritual realm.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:58 PM
Eternal Security salvation doctrine creates lot of problems.

Securists saying when Christians shall stand face before the judgment seat of Christ. Anyone who do not serve the Lord, and sinning in the life. Will suffer loss the reward only, not their salvation. Then, they saying when after they suffer loss their rewards, that mean, they will not reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years. They shall be grounded somehere other place away from millennial kingdom.

That is kind of so called, "Millennial Exclusion" doctrine, or is this 'Christian Purgatory'?

That why Premillennialism creates lot of problems.

Whilst Matt. 25:31-46 teaching us there will be only one future judgment day follow at His coming. Matt. 25:34-46 telling us, goats, who do not serve the Lord, or doing wicked things shall send away into everlasting fire. Anyone who serve the Lord, shall enter eternal life. That's settle it.

There is no another second chance beyond Second Coming as supposed, 'Christian purgatory' during a thousand years.

Once Christ comes, then it is done for all nations to face their final eternal destiny to face either eternal in lake of fire or with the Lord. That's settle it. Plain and simple.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:04 PM
James 1:15 says: "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, BRINGETH FORTH DEATH."

It means that, if anyone who continue sinning, their sinning shall bring them forth to death. 'Death' is not only speak of flesh or body either, but spiritual.

Notice next verse 16 says, "Do NOT err, my beloved brethren."

Clear, James 1:15-16 is warning toward us as Christians. If we continue in sinning all the way till our death(phyiscal), then, it shall bring forth 'Death', which clearly speak of spiritually death is in the lake of fire, so called, "second death".

Same with Romans 6:23 speaks of 'death' which is opposite of life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

VerticalReality
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:14 PM
No - that's completely NOT my view - in fact I don't know anyone who really believes that (except for greasy grace OSAS folks, I guess). I formly believe that, had Jesus not prayed for Peter, his faith WOULD have failed completely and, like Judas, he would have been lost forever.

I believe we are kept first and foremost by the prayers of our Great High Priest - through faith - not BY faith through His prayers.

Oh . . . okay. My mistake.

VerticalReality
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:21 PM
Actually VR, it's the soul... James:1:21: Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Seems like everybody is looking at what the flesh does and ignores what it is that is really saved and secured... And John said: 1st John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Plain and simple, once the soul is saved (born again) it CAN NOT SIN. Before the rebirth the soul was really at the mercy of the flesh but praise God, no longer. (And please don't say I'm saying you can get saved and then live any way you want to. That's foolishness!!!)

All these acts of the flesh that are being described by everybody don't take into account that only the soul is saved. That's why we are told: Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And honestly the only real way to mortify the deeds of the body is to be born again. Not of natural deeds but spiritual. There seems to be a lack of understanding between the spiritual and the natural. Nicodemus had the same problem understanding this in John 3.

Just so I understand where you're coming from . . .

Do you believe that the spirit and the soul are the same thing?

The Parson
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:25 PM
Just so I understand where you're coming from . . .

Do you believe that the spirit and the soul are the same thing?No, I don't. Man is made of Body, Soul, and Spirit. It's my understanding that body is natural physical man, Soul is the supernatural man, and Spirit is the essence of intellect that is the bridge between the two.

VerticalReality
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:31 PM
No, I don't. Man is made of Body, Soul, and Spirit. It's my understanding that body is natural physical man, Soul is the supernatural man, and Spirit is the essence of intellect that is the bridge between the two.

Okay, thanks for explaining.

My understanding is that we are born again of the spirit . . . not the soul, and that our soul is currently in the process of being saved.



John 3:5-6
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


I believe it is our spirit that is born again, and I believe both our flesh and our soul are now being perfected as we present ourselves as a living sacrifice to the Lord and renew our minds. So, I believe it is our spirit that is now complete and perfected in Him.

The Parson
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:37 PM
Okay, thanks for explaining.

My understanding is that we are born again of the spirit . . . not the soul, and that our soul is currently in the process of being saved. You would get that impression from Bibles translated from Alexandrian Text. The original text doesn't make it a process but says we ARE saved and ARE sanctified instead of being in the process. 1st Corinthians 1:18 & Hebrews 10:14...


I believe it is our spirit that is born again, and I believe both our flesh and our soul are now being perfected as we present ourselves as a living sacrifice to the Lord and renew our minds. So, I believe it is our spirit that is now complete and perfected in Him.Do a keyword search in any of your bibles for saved or save and let me know if it refers to the soul or the spirit.

VerticalReality
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:43 PM
You would get that impression from Bibles translated from Alexandrian Text. The original text doesn't make it a process but says we ARE saved and ARE sanctified instead of being in the process. 1st Corinthians 1:18 & Hebrews 10:14...

Oh, I believe we are saved and sanctified . . . in spirit. What do you think of the Scripture I referenced above where Jesus said that which is born of the Spirit is spirit? Why do you believe He doesn't say that which is born of the Spirit is soul?

Additionally, what is the soul made up of?

My heart's Desire
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:02 PM
I wonder if the enlightenment, etc. translates into salvation? That is, has Paul described a saved person, or does the word "taste" suggest something else that came short of it?

I wonder if the word "taste" is being used idiomatically like we would use the phrase "dip your toe in the water?"

If you dip your toes in the water, you try something tentatively because you are not sure whether it will work or not.Yes, I've been studying this lately. In the story of the woman at the well, Jesus told her that whosoever drinketh of the water that He gives will never thrist again. To taste something is not drinking. In fact, a mere taste may give a person a thrist for more, instead of never thristing again. Can we equate only a taste to a drink? God said that Jesus came into the world and enlightens all, but are all saved? No.
Think of the saying. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. A person can be enlightened to the gospel and not come to the light. A person can taste and yet not fully partake of the drink in order to never thrist. Can a person not partake of the wooing to Christ by the Holy Spirit and yet not fully accept Him. We are all wooed to the truth by the Holy Spirit and yet many do not come to be saved by His wooing.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:30 PM
Parson,

Earlier, you asked us, what is it that saved to us? - Body? Mind? or Soul?

I already answer your question that, I show you of Matt. 10:28 that our both soul and body be saved.

Also, I have another good verse to answer your question.


In 1 Thessalonians 5:23 says, "And the very God of peace sanctify youy wholly, and I pray God your WHOLE spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Care to hear your explain on 1 Thess. 5:23, what it means to you?

This verse 23 is a clear matter of salvation relates with Second Coming.

This verse 23 clearly telling us that all our spirit, soul, and body, ALL whole within us, must be perseerved blameless at Christ's coming.

Notice, Eph. 4:30 warns us, that we do not grieve the Holy Spirit. Why? Because we are sealed with the Holy Spirit TILL the "day of redemption" comes.

Being "sealed" with the Holy Spirit of Eph. 1:13 doesn't mean that we are already guaranteed saved at once as Holy Spirit sealed in us. Eph. 1:14 described more clear, that Holy Spirit seals in us is the picture of we are "engaged" with jesus Christ, because we are not yet marry to Christ of Revelation chapter 19 till He comes first. Being sealed with the Holy Spirit is a picture of "holding our salvation" await till our redemption comes-Luke 21:28.

In another word, what if we sinning and not being watch for His coming, then all our spirit, soul, and body shall be destruction (1 Cor. 5:5) is the picture of our hope would be being doomed, send us away into everlasting fire. That means we might be "blame" if we do not walk for the Lord, and sinning against the Holy Spirit, then He would leave us.

Bible teaches us that we must keep all our spirit, soul, and body be pure and holy, being blamless daily in our Life till we die or Lord comes. Because He will judge us. If we do not keep all our spirit, soul, and body. Then, we are dooomed being end up in lake of fire follow at His coming.

Tomorrow, I will discuss more about "day of redemption" relates with our spirit, body, and soul. All of these are matter with salvation issue with Second Advent for the purpose of Judgment Day.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

My heart's Desire
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:32 PM
I guess they would rather sin and go to he'll, than cut something off. Seriously though, Jesus' point is that sin is that serious. However, you did not address the issue, why did Jesus say that to His personally chosen ones?
To get back to the topic. No question, sin is serious, yet what in this passage makes it look as if His disciples can lose salvation? I'm of the opinion anyway that just because Jesus choose them to follow Him did that make them saved yet? I'm not so sure Judas was ever saved. However we look at it the disciples were still in the O.T. economy of the Temple and blood sacrifices until Jesus died, was buried and rose again.

THOM
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:08 PM
No, I don't. Man is made of Body, Soul, and Spirit. It's my understanding that body is natural physical man, Soul is the supernatural man, and Spirit is the essence of intellect that is the bridge between the two.

If "Man is made of Body, Soul, and Spirit", where then does the command by JESUS, "Thou shalt love THE LORD thy GOD with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (Matthew 22:37;Mark 12:30;Luke 10:27)", show this make up?

DeafPosttrib
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:16 PM
Thom,

Well saying, amen.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The Parson
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:20 PM
Parson,

Earlier, you asked us, what is it that saved to us? - Body? Mind? or Soul?

I already answer your question that, I show you of Matt. 10:28 that our both soul and body be saved.

Also, I have another good verse to answer your question.


In 1 Thessalonians 5:23 says, "And the very God of peace sanctify youy wholly, and I pray God your WHOLE spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Care to hear your explain on 1 Thess. 5:23, what it means to you?

This verse 23 is a clear matter of salvation relates with Second Coming.

This verse 23 clearly telling us that all our spirit, soul, and body, ALL whole within us, must be perseerved blameless at Christ's coming.

Notice, Eph. 4:30 warns us, that we do not grieve the Holy Spirit. Why? Because we are sealed with the Holy Spirit TILL the "day of redemption" comes.

Being "sealed" with the Holy Spirit of Eph. 1:13 doesn't mean that we are already guaranteed saved at once as Holy Spirit sealed in us. Eph. 1:14 described more clear, that Holy Spirit seals in us is the picture of we are "engaged" with jesus Christ, because we are not yet marry to Christ of Revelation chapter 19 till He comes first. Being sealed with the Holy Spirit is a picture of "holding our salvation" await till our redemption comes-Luke 21:28.

In another word, what if we sinning and not being watch for His coming, then all our spirit, soul, and body shall be destruction (1 Cor. 5:5) is the picture of our hope would be being doomed, send us away into everlasting fire. That means we might be "blame" if we do not walk for the Lord, and sinning against the Holy Spirit, then He would leave us.

Bible teaches us that we must keep all our spirit, soul, and body be pure and holy, being blamless daily in our Life till we die or Lord comes. Because He will judge us. If we do not keep all our spirit, soul, and body. Then, we are dooomed being end up in lake of fire follow at His coming.

Tomorrow, I will discuss more about "day of redemption" relates with our spirit, body, and soul. All of these are matter with salvation issue with Second Advent for the purpose of Judgment Day.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!Wouldn't that be wonderful if all three were preserved blameless. That's my prayer too. Does it happen all the time to every born again Christian. No, but the Apostle wrote about how we are to handle the blameless issue. 1st John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I look forward to the day of redemption explanation. But then again folks, honestly, I only see where the soul is that which is saved.

The Parson
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:26 PM
To get back to the topic. No question, sin is serious, yet what in this passage makes it look as if His disciples can lose salvation? I'm of the opinion anyway that just because Jesus choose them to follow Him did that make them saved yet? I'm not so sure Judas was ever saved. However we look at it the disciples were still in the O.T. economy of the Temple and blood sacrifices until Jesus died, was buried and rose again.Actually, thats a good point because the redemption plan hadn't been completed as of yet. The Old Testament saints were looking forward to the cross, resurrection, and ascension, whereas we look back on these events. So salvation came to the apostles in it's completed form after Jesus paid the full price and arose.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:26 PM
Parson,

Care to explain to us, what 'soul' means? Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:28 PM
Parson,

Both Old Testament and New Testament of salvation have the same plan. Salvation only come by through the faith and obedience both go together. Even, both O.T. and N.T. do teaching salvation is conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

THOM
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:43 PM
Parson,

Both Old Testament and New Testament of salvation have the same plan. Salvation only come by through the faith and obedience both go together. Even, both O.T. and N.T. do teaching salvation is conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Amen. . .back at you!!!:D
Speaking of Abram, "And he believed in THE LORD; and HE counted it to him for righteousness. (Genesis 15:6)".

Wow! Abram was saved even before GOD changed his name!!!

The Parson
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:48 PM
Parson,

Both Old Testament and New Testament of salvation have the same plan. Salvation only come by through the faith and obedience both go together. Even, both O.T. and N.T. do teaching salvation is conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!Never said it wasn't the same plan. What I said was the plan wasn't completed until the Savior completed it.

VerticalReality
Apr 22nd 2009, 07:04 PM
If "Man is made of Body, Soul, and Spirit", where then does the command by JESUS, "Thou shalt love THE LORD thy GOD with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (Matthew 22:37;Mark 12:30;Luke 10:27)", show this make up?

There's no need for the command to include spirit as the spirit is one with Him.

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

In spirit we are currently seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus. We are one with Him. The spirit is never out of tune with God. We are sealed by Him, and we are one with Him. It's the body and soul that are not where they should be. This is why we must crucify the flesh and submit ourselves as living sacrifices. This is why we must renew our mind to the truths of God. The spirit is already perfected and complete in Him.

BroRog
Apr 22nd 2009, 07:41 PM
Is there a difference? Those that don't... get blotted out! Take it the way ya want.

With respect to the issue of security and our dialog to explore this issue, the difference is this. Those who do not see security being taught by Jesus and the apostles would remind us of various verses that highlight what appears to be statements of contingency with respect to salvation.

The citation you presented might be one of those verses that highlights a contingent salvation. If Jesus meant his statement as a warning, this would certainly be one example of the contingency of salvation. But if he meant this as a declarative, then his statement isn't necessarily meant to indicate contingency and therefore can not be used to support contingency.

I'm pointing out the difference in hopes of being helpful to our discussion. It's just something to help us weigh all the information.

The Parson
Apr 22nd 2009, 07:50 PM
Oh, I believe we are saved and sanctified . . . in spirit. What do you think of the Scripture I referenced above where Jesus said that which is born of the Spirit is spirit? Why do you believe He doesn't say that which is born of the Spirit is soul?

Additionally, what is the soul made up of?The soul is the product of Gods breathing into man. Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Not sure what answer you are looking for as to what the soul is made of. The soul is non corporeal actually. I don't even think it is a energy force that we can measure so to speak. I'm looking at what the scriptures say but haven't found anything yet.

BroRog
Apr 22nd 2009, 07:53 PM
OK, hold the boat guys... This is heading in the same direction as every other thread. Honestly, one side really not listening to the other. For instance, I've asked one simple question twice and it still hasn't been addressed. Let me ask you all then...

What is it that is saved about us? Flesh, Mind, or Soul???


Sorry, the conversation forked and I took the wrong fork I guess. :)

I'm not sure about these categories. :) My pastor likes to speak about our "righteous subjectivity" which I suppose is a function of the mind, but it might also be a shared function with the soul.

When a person comes to saving faith, he or she has been given and new perspective, a new orientation to God, neighbor, and self, a new set of desires, feelings, and beliefs. Some would call it a transformation of the heart. The Bible talks about it as a hardened heart being made into a soft heart. Jesus speaks about it in terms of our having "eyes to see, and ears to hear." Paul talks about it in terms of our understanding and coming to terms with our self concept.

I could go on, but that sums it up. I think.

Subjectivity refers to a subject's perspective, particularly feelings, beliefs, and desires. It is often used casually to refer to unjustified ...

VerticalReality
Apr 22nd 2009, 07:53 PM
The soul is the product of Gods breathing into man. Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Not sure what answer you are looking for as to what the soul is made of. The soul is non corporeal actually. I don't even think it is a energy force that we can measure so to speak. I'm looking at what the scriptures say but haven't found anything yet.

And when this event took place the inanimate portion of man came alive. His mind now was in function. He now had a will.

This is the change that took place when the body came into contact with the breath of God. This mind and will make up the soul of a man.

THOM
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:04 PM
There's no need for the command to include spirit as the spirit is one with Him.

Did you notice that "body" is not included either?

What "spirit is one with Him"?

I brought up the command because the command gives us the make-up of mankind. . .all mankind. . .which doesn't include either "body" nor "spirit".

copper25
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:05 PM
Now just for simplicity here. I am not sure if this had been brought up but here goes

John 6 :44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So none of us could even come to Jesus, nor repentance, unless the Father had drawn us.

Now as the elect of God, we are currently part of the church, the body of Christ

Matthew 16:18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I know this is a hard sword to believe, but if even one NT saint, one of us who is in the Church body fell away, became lost and went to hell, then what Christ said would be a complete lie. If you say not, then simply support your reason.

VerticalReality
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:56 PM
Did you notice that "body" is not included either?

What "spirit is one with Him"?

I brought up the command because the command gives us the make-up of mankind. . .all mankind. . .which doesn't include either "body" nor "spirit".

Why would the body be included? The body does whatever the mind tells it to do.

I'm also confused by your last statement. Are you saying that mankind doesn't have a body? How could the "make-up" of a man not include a body?

Partaker of Christ
Apr 22nd 2009, 09:15 PM
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

To me this verse implies that some may not overcome. In practical terms it's possible that some will deny Christ in the face of torture (just like Peter did).

Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Some saints will be overcome in the sense they will be killed. I don't see it as impossible that some will be overcome in the sense they decide to take the mark to stop the torture/persecution.

Hi Tango!

1Jn 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jn 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.

1Jn 4:4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

Now, if by our faith we HAVE overcome, how can we then later not be overcomers?

karenoka27
Apr 22nd 2009, 09:33 PM
What is it that is saved about us? Flesh, Mind, or Soul???



I believe it is the soul that is saved.I say that based on
John 3:2-4-"He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him. In reply Jesus declared, I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!""


Therefore it seems it would not be the body/flesh that must be saved.


I do understand that we are told to Love the Lord our God with our hearts,mind,and strength. I also believe that God knows that in our flesh we are incapable of loving Him completely. If we did there would be no sin.


Matthew 26:41-"...the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."


Romans 7:18-"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Tomlane
Apr 22nd 2009, 10:33 PM
Hebrews 6:4-6 is not difficult to understand if we take it exactly as it reads. Enlightened means having knowledge of, educated and that means either the Holy Spirit or someone who belongs to the household of God gave the gospel. Having knowledge of salvation which is found in Romans 15: 16, 17, and 18, that is the heavenly gift for God is in heaven before and after and during salvation. When we have knowledge of salvation whither a person accepts it or not has tasted of the gift and shared in the Holy Spirit for it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of sin.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Then if we have tasted or have understood the goodness of God and have the free gift, that person must be restored by repenting so no harm comes to them. Other wise Christ will take them Home prematurely.


Hebrews 6.4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt

Butch5
Apr 22nd 2009, 10:49 PM
To get back to the topic. No question, sin is serious, yet what in this passage makes it look as if His disciples can lose salvation? I'm of the opinion anyway that just because Jesus choose them to follow Him did that make them saved yet? I'm not so sure Judas was ever saved. However we look at it the disciples were still in the O.T. economy of the Temple and blood sacrifices until Jesus died, was buried and rose again.

After Christ died, there was no OT economy. The new covenant was in effect and Jesus told them if their hand caused them to sin, cut it off, He said it was better for them, John, Peter, Matthew, and the rest, to enter into life (eternal) maimed, than for their whole body to go into hell fire, where their worm never dies. There is no way to dance around this passage, Jesus clearly tells His chosen ones, be careful to avoid hell. Obviously Judas didn't heed the warning.

tango
Apr 22nd 2009, 11:17 PM
I have to back up myself and ask a question again. Hey Tango. Who or specifically what is saved scripturally? The flesh, the heart, or the soul???

Ack, this is what happens when I don't check in on a busy thread for... oh... a few hours :)

I would say the flesh goes to the grave. The heart is a tricky one - if we mean the lump of muscle in our chests that goes to the grave too. Someone already posted a Scripture to show it is the soul that is saved. If we are to have new bodies it means we don't need the old ones any more.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 22nd 2009, 11:38 PM
The soul is the product of Gods breathing into man. Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Not sure what answer you are looking for as to what the soul is made of. The soul is non corporeal actually. I don't even think it is a energy force that we can measure so to speak. I'm looking at what the scriptures say but haven't found anything yet.

Hi Parson!

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart

Why would the sword need to dived soul and spirit?

The soul is predominantly the intellect, emotion, and the volition.
It is what we think, feel and chose.

The spirit is saved, but the sould is being saved. We renew our minds. Lean not on your own understanding. We live by faith no our emotions. We surrender our will (deny the self) to do His will. (we decrease, while He increases)

We live by the Spirit, so we ought to also walk by the Spirit (not the soul)

We are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Holy of Holies = spirit = (God conscious) = (saved)

The Holy Place = soul = (self conscious) = (being saved)

The Outer Court = body = (world conscious) = (will be saved)

BroRog
Apr 22nd 2009, 11:58 PM
Hi Parson!

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart

Why would the sword need to dived soul and spirit?

The soul is predominantly the intellect, emotion, and the volition.
It is what we think, feel and chose.

The spirit is saved, but the sould is being saved. We renew our minds. Lean not on your own understanding. We live by faith no our emotions. We surrender our will (deny the self) to do His will. (we decrease, while He increases)

We live by the Spirit, so we ought to also walk by the Spirit (not the soul)

We are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Holy of Holies = spirit = (God conscious) = (saved)

The Holy Place = soul = (self conscious) = (being saved)

The Outer Court = body = (world conscious) = (will be saved)

I guess there is a soul and a spirit. But I think Paul is using this metaphor because he thinks there isn't much of a difference between a soul and a spirit. In other words, the sword is SO sharp that it can divide something SO fine as the difference between a soul and a spirit.

In our idiom, I believe, we would say "the sword is so sharp it can cut a hair down the middle."

Partaker of Christ
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:00 AM
If "Man is made of Body, Soul, and Spirit", where then does the command by JESUS, "Thou shalt love THE LORD thy GOD with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (Matthew 22:37;Mark 12:30;Luke 10:27)", show this make up?


Hi THOM!

Paul said that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Holy of holies = spirit (God conscious)
The Holy Place = soul (self conscious)
The outer court = body (world conscious)

Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

God is Spirit, and He resides in the Holy of Hollies, and like the temple there was a veil, between the Holy of Hollies, and the Holy Place.

That is why the first command did not mention spirit, because there was the veil to keep from approaching God, without first the sprinkling of blood. It was not until Christ was crucified, when that veil was torn from top to bottom.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

In the O/T God led His people by the hand, but now we are led by the Spirit.

VerticalReality
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:31 AM
I guess there is a soul and a spirit. But I think Paul is using this metaphor because he thinks there isn't much of a difference between a soul and a spirit. In other words, the sword is SO sharp that it can divide something SO fine as the difference between a soul and a spirit.

In our idiom, I believe, we would say "the sword is so sharp it can cut a hair down the middle."

I believe there is a tremendous difference, and I believe Paraker of Christ has it exactly right in what they are saying. The Old Testament temple serves as a type and shadow of the New Testament temple. The New Testament temple is us who are filled with His Spirit. We can look to the Old Testament temple model as a reflection of the deeper truth of how this New Testament temple is constructed.

We are made up just as PoC stated . . .

Outer Court: The Body

Inner Court: The Soul

Holy of Holies: The Spirit

Just as the Old Testament temple holy of holies was filled with God's glory . . . so is our spirit when we are full of Him. We become one with Him in spirit. Only those who are born again of the Spirit are full of Him. Only those who are born again are even alive spiritually. The reason we must be born again is because we are dead spiritually before we come to the Lord in faith. When we come to Jesus in faith we are born again in spirit (John 3:6) and sealed by Him (Ephesians 1:13). The reason we have no knowledge whatsoever of spiritual things before we are born again is because we are dead spiritually and those things are foolishness to us because we have been blinded by the devil.

Bandit
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:53 AM
Now just for simplicity here. I am not sure if this had been brought up but here goes

John 6 :44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So none of us could even come to Jesus, nor repentance, unless the Father had drawn us.

Now as the elect of God, we are currently part of the church, the body of Christ

Matthew 16:18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I know this is a hard sword to believe, but if even one NT saint, one of us who is in the Church body fell away, became lost and went to hell, then what Christ said would be a complete lie. If you say not, then simply support your reason.


Allow me to suggest that if persons can fall away, that Christ did not lie; rather your interpretation of His words would be at fault.

In other words, if apostasy is possible, then you are reading into these quotes something other than what He meant.

A first step would be to see if there are other passages indicating possible apostasy, for if there are, then a careful reexamination of both sets of passages becomes manditory.

As I see it, you are reading more into these texts than is there, and with this you are quite content, for this "interpretation" tells you exactly what you want to hear. So until and unless you become unsatisfied with this interpretation, you will never search for any other.

My heart's Desire
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:12 AM
After Christ died, there was no OT economy. The new covenant was in effect and Jesus told them if their hand caused them to sin, cut it off, He said it was better for them, John, Peter, Matthew, and the rest, to enter into life (eternal) maimed, than for their whole body to go into hell fire, where their worm never dies. There is no way to dance around this passage, Jesus clearly tells His chosen ones, be careful to avoid hell. Obviously Judas didn't heed the warning.
You're right, after Christ died there was no O.T economy, but you are speaking of a verse told by Christ before He died and the disciples were still in the O.T economy at that time. There were still Temple sacrifices being made for the covering of sins.
I beg to differ. The New Covenant was not in effect until the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Also, I'll end with that because it doesn't profit to continue in that direction. If I remember and understand correctly you were using the verse to prove that saved people lose salvation. If that were so, and we still sin as 1 John says then there'd be a whole bunch of people running around with severed limbs as they were trying to enter heaven maimed instead of not getting to enter at all.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:24 AM
I believe there is a tremendous difference, and I believe Paraker of Christ has it exactly right in what they are saying. The Old Testament temple serves as a type and shadow of the New Testament temple. The New Testament temple is us who are filled with His Spirit. We can look to the Old Testament temple model as a reflection of the deeper truth of how this New Testament temple is constructed.

We are made up just as PoC stated . . .

Outer Court: The Body

Inner Court: The Soul

Holy of Holies: The Spirit

Just as the Old Testament temple holy of holies was filled with God's glory . . . so is our spirit when we are full of Him. We become one with Him in spirit. Only those who are born again of the Spirit are full of Him. Only those who are born again are even alive spiritually. The reason we must be born again is because we are dead spiritually before we come to the Lord in faith. When we come to Jesus in faith we are born again in spirit (John 3:6) and sealed by Him (Ephesians 1:13). The reason we have no knowledge whatsoever of spiritual things before we are born again is because we are dead spiritually and those things are foolishness to us because we have been blinded by the devil.

Okay, but did you understand Paul's analogy wouldn't work if there was a "tremendous difference" between a soul and spirit? He says that the word of God is sharper than a two edged sword. It's SO sharp that it can divide two concepts: soul from spirit. This analogy works if the distinction between these two concepts is very fine. It doesn't work if there is a big difference between the two concepts. How sharp does a sword have to be to cut between two concepts that are already far apart from each other? :)

tango
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:31 AM
Hi Tango!

1Jn 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jn 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.

1Jn 4:4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

Now, if by our faith we HAVE overcome, how can we then later not be overcomers?

In the same way we might overcome anything else in our life on several occasions and then yield to it.

We have all overcome something to accept Jesus as our Saviour, but in theory when the chips are down and we have the choice to deny Jesus or die horribly it's possible some will choose the easy way out.

You've used "overcomes" in the present and past tenses, but we're talking about the future tense too.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 23rd 2009, 11:27 AM
Bible teaches us that, we are commanded to overcome the world.

Once we born again from above, we have Christ in us. True that Christ is our overcomer, also, He is our strength. Without Him, we are impossible to overcome them.

In John 16:33 tells us, Christ says to us that, we have to face tribulations, but be cheer, because Christ already overcome the world at Calvary. That means, Christ victory over sins, tribulations, temptations, and also Satan too.

Therefore, we should follow Christ's example. That we have to suffering.

Being overcome is like as battle.

In Matthew 7:13-14 telling us we have two roads, wide road which lead to destruction speak of hell, and a narrow road which lead to eternal life. Christ says many strive to enter into, but most are not able to. Most people choose wide roads because of temptations, seeking easy ways, rather love the world than God, not want to fight against sins anymore. Christ tells us, few people are made enter into the gate of narrow road which lead to eternal life. Because they have fought their faith, and endure all the way to the end. Few of them forsake the world, follow Christ, walk in the light. Sadly, Matt. 7:13-14 telling us most of them will not make into eternal life, most will end up in hell.

Enter into the narrow road toward the gate is not easy.

Bible commands us that we ought overcome the world throughout our life till death or Lord comes, then we shall have the final victory and have eternal life.

We are now in spiritual warfare since after we born again. We must endure with our faith, looking up at Jesus, follow Him, do not give up, stay focus on Him all the time throughout our life till death. If we quit, and stopped follow Christ, then we shall not be saved at the end according Matt. 10:22; and Matt. 24:13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

VerticalReality
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:54 PM
Okay, but did you understand Paul's analogy wouldn't work if there was a "tremendous difference" between a soul and spirit? He says that the word of God is sharper than a two edged sword. It's SO sharp that it can divide two concepts: soul from spirit. This analogy works if the distinction between these two concepts is very fine. It doesn't work if there is a big difference between the two concepts. How sharp does a sword have to be to cut between two concepts that are already far apart from each other? :)

I don't look at it the same way. I look at it in terms of depth . . . not how "fine" the difference is. Just look at the Old Testament temple model. You have the Outer Court. Then within the Outer Court (The Body) you have a large area known as the Inner Court (The Soul). Even deeper within you have the Holy of Holies where the ark was located that represented the presence of God (The spirit).

The Word of God is so sharp that it can divide something that is within something else. In other words, it is so sharp that it can divide something that is absolutely impossible for anything else to divide. That is why it is sharper than a two-edged sword. A two-edged sword can only divide the physical. However, the Word of God goes much deeper than that and can divide that which is not physical.

VerticalReality
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:56 PM
Here's a question for those who believe it is the soul that has been completed and perfected . . .

Why are we commanded to walk in spirit . . . rather than soul?

Walstib
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:57 PM
Okay, but did you understand Paul's analogy wouldn't work if there was a "tremendous difference" between a soul and spirit? He says that the word of God is sharper than a two edged sword. It's SO sharp that it can divide two concepts: soul from spirit. This analogy works if the distinction between these two concepts is very fine. It doesn't work if there is a big difference between the two concepts. How sharp does a sword have to be to cut between two concepts that are already far apart from each other? :)

Only works if the analogy you speak of is the one the author intended. A logical conclusion but maybe the wrong one.

If the spirit is our life from God (animation,conscience, place of communion), and the soul is the us, that is our non physical self (mind, will....) and the word of God shows us the difference between our thoughts and God's influence/breath. ....able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart....

I think the analogy works this way just fine. Interesting to consider the way you see it now though. I'll give it some thought :)

Peace,
Joe

Partaker of Christ
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:26 PM
Okay, but did you understand Paul's analogy wouldn't work if there was a "tremendous difference" between a soul and spirit? He says that the word of God is sharper than a two edged sword. It's SO sharp that it can divide two concepts: soul from spirit. This analogy works if the distinction between these two concepts is very fine. It doesn't work if there is a big difference between the two concepts. How sharp does a sword have to be to cut between two concepts that are already far apart from each other? :)

Hi BroRog!

Very quickly:

Luke 1:46 And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord,
Luke 1:47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

There is a difference.
Some people have strong emotion, and tend to live and work according to their emotion.

VerticalReality
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:48 PM
Here's an interior diagram of the Old Testament temple for everyone to look at to get an idea of how the New Testament temple (The believer) is constructed.

http://www.biblestudy.org/biblepic/interior-diagram-of-temple-in-jerusalem.html

Again, keep in mind . . .

Outer Court: The Body

Inner Court: The Soul

Holy of Holies: The Spirit

DeafPosttrib
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:17 PM
I would like to be curious to hear of your comment on Genesis 2:7 says: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED INTO his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a 'living soul'."

We know that God is Spirit. During creation time in Genesis chapter 1. God doesn't have body. But, Gen. 2:7 tells us, when God created Adam from the dust, then God breathed into Adam's nostrils, to became living soul. I believe God's spirit were breathed into Adam's nostrils to became living soul. So, Adam does have three parts - body, soul, and spirit, all are go into together.

Like as an apple have three parts - red covered, white under red, and then seed within the apple. Yet, it is AN apple.

I believed Adam was perfect, have no sin in him. Because he has spirit came from God. What if Adam refuses eat fruit from Eve, he would have live over 1,000 to 2,000 years or more, while he would have remain holy.

When Adam sinned, he die. In Gen. 2:17, God said to Adam, if you eat it, you shalt surely "die". My understanding, "die" is not always relate with flesh or soul, rather it speaks of spiritually death.

Apostle Paul teaches us, that we all have sinned come from Adam. All of us were born spiritually death. But ALL people over the world do have living soul. But, we all were born spiritually death according Eph. 2:1,5 -"dead".

Therefore, in John 3:3,5- Christ tells us that we must be born again from above. Means we must receive the spirit from God.

I believe that means, when we all were born first time as infant baby, all of us do not have Holy Spirit yet.

When we hear the gospel, believe it, repent, then receive Christ, as the Holy Spirit comes into our soul, and make us quick-spiritually.

All truly Christians have three parts - body, soul, and spirit. While all not saved people have two parts - soul and body.

If we do not have spirit from above, therefore, both our soul and body cast away in hell. That why, we must born again to receive spirit from above, so, we can escape from the second death -Romans 6:23.

Make sense?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

RogerW
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:18 PM
In the same way we might overcome anything else in our life on several occasions and then yield to it.

We have all overcome something to accept Jesus as our Saviour, but in theory when the chips are down and we have the choice to deny Jesus or die horribly it's possible some will choose the easy way out.

You've used "overcomes" in the present and past tenses, but we're talking about the future tense too.

Hi Tango,

I'm trying to get my head around this thought. Are you saying that if a Christian, under pressure denies Christ, choosing the easy way out, then he/she will lose their salvation?

If that is true, what are we to make of Peter's denial of Christ, and being forgiven? When Christ spoke of men who deny Him before man, and said He would also deny them before the Father, what makes you think Christ was speaking of Christians? In the same passage where Christ says this it also says, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." (Mt 10:28-32)

The point being that even though Peter denied Him before man, he still had the Lord's promise that He would confess him before the Father because Peter was one of His, and had also confessed Christ before men.

Mr 14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

In view of Peter's confessions, both positive and negative, and the fact he still received the Lord's saving mercy, can we really say that the Lord will deny His own before the Father in heaven if they lack perfection through persecution?

Many Blessings,
RW

The Parson
Apr 23rd 2009, 04:01 PM
On the sidelines here for the moment. Gonna do a bit of catch up and be back with ya'll.

THOM
Apr 23rd 2009, 04:20 PM
Here's a question for those who believe it is the soul that has been completed and perfected . . .

Why are we commanded to walk in spirit . . . rather than soul?

We're "are we commanded to walk in spirit . . . rather than soul", so that we will not fulfill (and be so conscious minded of) the desires/lusts of the flesh.

You and I are "souls". . .not "spirits". We are Spiritual. We are to led by THE SAME SPIRIT, that Seals us, and Indwells us. When we Truly "Walk in THE SPIRIT", The "Heart", "Soul", "Mind" and, even the, "Body" must follow.

A Person's make up, Before CHRIST, is like this:


"Body" ("the flesh");
"Mind" ("Worldly");
"Soul" (You/Me);
"Heart" ([Free]"Will");


A Person's make up, "IN CHRIST", is like this:


"Heart" ([Free]"Will");
"Soul" (You/Me);
"Mind" ("Worldly");
"Body" ("the flesh").

RogerW
Apr 23rd 2009, 04:52 PM
Hi Parson!

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart

Why would the sword need to dived soul and spirit?

The soul is predominantly the intellect, emotion, and the volition.
It is what we think, feel and chose.

The spirit is saved, but the sould is being saved. We renew our minds. Lean not on your own understanding. We live by faith no our emotions. We surrender our will (deny the self) to do His will. (we decrease, while He increases)

We live by the Spirit, so we ought to also walk by the Spirit (not the soul)

We are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Holy of Holies = spirit = (God conscious) = (saved)

The Holy Place = soul = (self conscious) = (being saved)

The Outer Court = body = (world conscious) = (will be saved)

I like the way you explained this Partaker. The soul is the essence of the person; mind, heart, will, and the Spirit is also the essence of the person, but the person who has been born again. Every man becomes a living soul through physical birth...that is we are born with body, mind, heart and will, but unsaved man has not received Spiritual life in his mind, heart and will, therefore unless he/she is born again of the Spirit he/she will remain without Spiritual life...altogether dead in trespasses and sins.

It's difficult to speak of the soul of man as a separate entity from spirit, but it is necessary to make the distinction in order to understand that though a man appears to be a three part being, he is in fact only body and soul, or body, mind, heart, and will without spiritual life. It is only after a man has been born again and indwelt by the Spirit of God that he/she now has body, and a soul exhibiting spiritual life, in that now the mind, heart and will is under the convicting work of the Spirit living in them. Great analogy of the three part temple to show Christians are indeed the True Temple of the Living God.

Many blessings,
RW

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 04:59 PM
Only works if the analogy you speak of is the one the author intended. A logical conclusion but maybe the wrong one.

If the spirit is our life from God (animation,conscience, place of communion), and the soul is the us, that is our non physical self (mind, will....) and the word of God shows us the difference between our thoughts and God's influence/breath. ....able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart....

I think the analogy works this way just fine. Interesting to consider the way you see it now though. I'll give it some thought :)

Peace,
Joe


Okay, just to be clear though . . . I'm not saying that there isn't a difference between soul and spirit. I'm only saying that the distinction between them is pretty subtle.

I remember looking these two words up in a Bible Encyclopedia and I couldn't help noticing that the Encyclopedia's description of the spirit and the soul were strikingly similar.

BroRog
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:02 PM
Hi BroRog!

Very quickly:

Luke 1:46 And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord,
Luke 1:47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

There is a difference.
Some people have strong emotion, and tend to live and work according to their emotion.

Yes, I agree there seems to be a difference but the difference is very subtle. But while we are on the subject, It would appear that your quotation is an example of parallelism in which the two terms are equated. Is that not right? I could be wrong.

VerticalReality
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:18 PM
You and I are "souls". . .not "spirits".

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are created in His image, and we are three in one just as He is three in one.

This Scripture is clear that we are body, soul and spirit.

tango
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:30 PM
Hi Tango,

I'm trying to get my head around this thought. Are you saying that if a Christian, under pressure denies Christ, choosing the easy way out, then he/she will lose their salvation?

If that is true, what are we to make of Peter's denial of Christ, and being forgiven? When Christ spoke of men who deny Him before man, and said He would also deny them before the Father, what makes you think Christ was speaking of Christians? In the same passage where Christ says this it also says, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." (Mt 10:28-32)

The point being that even though Peter denied Him before man, he still had the Lord's promise that He would confess him before the Father because Peter was one of His, and had also confessed Christ before men.

Mr 14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

In view of Peter's confessions, both positive and negative, and the fact he still received the Lord's saving mercy, can we really say that the Lord will deny His own before the Father in heaven if they lack perfection through persecution?

Many Blessings,
RW

This is one of the things I just love about this board, posts like yours that really make me think about my understanding of things.

Mat 10:32-33 NKJV "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. (33) But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Interestingly when Jesus told Peter about the coming denial he used the word ἀπαρνέομαι which suggests denying totally and disowning. In the passage where he talks of people who deny him before men the word is ἀρνέομαι which appears to be a lesser form of denial.

I can't help thinking that what he is talking about is an ongoing denial. If we take the easy way out once but subsequently get things back on track then, like Peter, we can be forgiven and restored. Before we come to know Jesus the simple statement of our situation "No, I am not a Christian" clearly cannot haunt us forever if we subsequently realise our need for Christ and accept him.

That said the angel in Revelation makes it very clear that if anyone takes the mark of the beast they will be tormented forever. So on that basis it seems that we have choices to make, and sometimes those choices have eternal consequences that cannot be undone.


On another note I can't help wondering whether verses like this:

Rev 2:4-5 NKJV Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. (5) Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

it seems clear that if the lampstand of a church can be removed from its place based on non-repentance, that God may take away our reward if we don't obey him.

I'm not thinking in terms of salvation being lost on a whim and for individual indiscretions - we are all sinners forgiven by grace - but if we take the decision to turn away from God and follow something or someone else we effectively bring the consequences upon ourselves. If we get to the point where we no longer even attempt to honour God and obey him, one might ask whether our names might be removed from the Book of Life.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:52 PM
I would like to add to say thing on deny.

In 2 Timothy 2:12 says: "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: IF we deny him, he also will deny us."

This verse is clear conditional. It says, if we suffer in our life, we shall reign with Christ forever. Or, in other word, if we refuse to suffer, then we cannot reign with Christ. (*notice, 'reign with him' does not say it shall last for a thousand years, so called, 'millennial kingdom'), it gives the picture that we shall live with Christ forever and ever. Also, this verse says, if we deny Christ, then He will deny us. Obivously, this do not support unconditional eternal security doctrine. This verse says, if we deny him, by refuse to suffer for Him, the, He would disown us, that mean he will be no longer own us afterward. He would reject us at the end, if we deny him in our lifetime.

By the way, I want to say on 2 Tim. 2:13. It says:

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

OSAS people interpret this verse means that if we believe not, yet Christ is abideth faithful IN us as picture of Christ already secured us. And Chhrist will not deny us.

But, this verse speaking of Christ, HIMSELF always abideth faithful, and he never deny himself before His Father. It has do nothing with us. Understand clear?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

THOM
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:00 PM
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are created in His image, and we are three in one just as He is three in one.

This Scripture is clear that we are body, soul and spirit.


Here's a question I asked you from a previous post, What "spirit is one with Him"? Please allow me to rephrase, rework, and add to that question:

What "spirit"? Where does this "spirit" come from?

The Scripture that you're using is to the ["whole"] Collective Believers [The Church] at Thessalonica;

They are to be Spiritually led by THE HOLY "SPIRIT", as they are each a "Soul" within The "BODY" of CHRIST.

VerticalReality
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:26 PM
Here's a question I asked you from a previous post, What "spirit is one with Him"? Please allow me to rephrase, rework, and add to that question:

What "spirit"? Where does this "spirit" come from?

The Scripture that you're using is to the ["whole"] Collective Believers [The Church] at Thessalonica;

They are to be Spiritually led by THE HOLY "SPIRIT", as they are each a "Soul" within The "BODY" of CHRIST.

Our spirit is one with Him . . .

And Paul was not addressing the Church as a whole when he wrote to Timothy . . .

2 Timothy 4:22
The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

Or better yet what Paul said about himself in Romans 1 . . .

Romans 1:9-10
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers, making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.

THOM
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:08 PM
Our spirit is one with Him . . .

And Paul was not addressing the Church as a whole when he wrote to Timothy . . .

2 Timothy 4:22
The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

Or better yet what Paul said about himself in Romans 1 . . .

Romans 1:9-10
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers, making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.


That'll Preach!!!;)

Walstib
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:14 PM
Okay, just to be clear though . . . I'm not saying that there isn't a difference between soul and spirit. I'm only saying that the distinction between them is pretty subtle.

I remember looking these two words up in a Bible Encyclopedia and I couldn't help noticing that the Encyclopedia's description of the spirit and the soul were strikingly similar.

I hear you. As I have learned recently, thanks to some on here, there are scriptures that the word soul relates to the whole person or just the "soul and spirit" if you will. The poetic style of the psalms and such leads to this sort of thing. That and I do treat it like a mystery and something I can't fully understand now.

Right now I believe that while alive on earth there is the breath of life in us that is of God, that returns to him (cannot be lost in the lake of fire). This being different than our very self that can go. To me it's not so subtle a difference, but I could be wrong. ;)

And with that I will not sidetrack here any longer, we could start a new thread on this if you are motivated to continue. :)



And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 NKJV)

Like sheep they are laid in the grave; Death shall feed on them; The upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; And their beauty shall be consumed in the grave, far from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah Do not be afraid when one becomes rich, When the glory of his house is increased; For when he dies he shall carry nothing away; His glory shall not descend after him. Though while he lives he blesses himself (For men will praise you when you do well for yourself), He shall go to the generation of his fathers; They shall never see light. A man who is in honor, yet does not understand, Is like the beasts that perish. (Psa 49:14-20 NKJV)



Who gave Him charge over the earth? Or who appointed Him over the whole world? If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust. (Job 34:13-15 NKJV)

Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, [11] Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecc 12:6-7 NKJV)

Butch5
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:00 PM
You're right, after Christ died there was no O.T economy, but you are speaking of a verse told by Christ before He died and the disciples were still in the O.T economy at that time. There were still Temple sacrifices being made for the covering of sins.
I beg to differ. The New Covenant was not in effect until the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Also, I'll end with that because it doesn't profit to continue in that direction. If I remember and understand correctly you were using the verse to prove that saved people lose salvation. If that were so, and we still sin as 1 John says then there'd be a whole bunch of people running around with severed limbs as they were trying to enter heaven maimed instead of not getting to enter at all.

Jesus used hyperbole to make a point, He did not mean to literally cut off body parts. His point was that sin is so serious that one would be better off if they cut off their hand than sin.

Yes I was speaking of a statement that Jesus made before He died. What was he talking about??? His kingdom, being His disciple, His follower. So if one is going to belong to Christ, this teaching applies to them.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 23rd 2009, 10:36 PM
I like the way you explained this Partaker. The soul is the essence of the person; mind, heart, will, and the Spirit is also the essence of the person, but the person who has been born again. Every man becomes a living soul through physical birth...that is we are born with body, mind, heart and will, but unsaved man has not received Spiritual life in his mind, heart and will, therefore unless he/she is born again of the Spirit he/she will remain without Spiritual life...altogether dead in trespasses and sins.

It's difficult to speak of the soul of man as a separate entity from spirit, but it is necessary to make the distinction in order to understand that though a man appears to be a three part being, he is in fact only body and soul, or body, mind, heart, and will without spiritual life. It is only after a man has been born again and indwelt by the Spirit of God that he/she now has body, and a soul exhibiting spiritual life, in that now the mind, heart and will is under the convicting work of the Spirit living in them. Great analogy of the three part temple to show Christians are indeed the True Temple of the Living God.

Many blessings,
RW

Hi again Roger!

I fear that I may be derailing.

Everyone is born with a spirit, but the spirit is dead from the fall. It is dead from the point that we cannot commune with God (who is Spirit). I think the problem is understanding what 'dead' means. My best understanding is 'redundant' or 'out of work'. After the fall, God no longer communed with man via the spirit. The spirit had to be renewed (born anew).

The difference is, that when God breathed into Adams nostrils, Adam received a 'life giving breath' (life from God). When we are born anew we receive His Spirit, and we have life of God (Christ in you).

Although Adam (before the fall) was perfect as man, he was not the finished artical. He had life from God, but not yet the life of God (the Tree of Life)

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Man had now become like God, in having the knowledge of good and evil, but he had not the life to do good and hate evil (100%)

Partaker of Christ
Apr 23rd 2009, 10:48 PM
I would like to add to say thing on deny.

In 2 Timothy 2:12 says: "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: IF we deny him, he also will deny us."

This verse is clear conditional. It says, if we suffer in our life, we shall reign with Christ forever. Or, in other word, if we refuse to suffer, then we cannot reign with Christ. (*notice, 'reign with him' does not say it shall last for a thousand years, so called, 'millennial kingdom'), it gives the picture that we shall live with Christ forever and ever. Also, this verse says, if we deny Christ, then He will deny us. Obivously, this do not support unconditional eternal security doctrine. This verse says, if we deny him, by refuse to suffer for Him, the, He would disown us, that mean he will be no longer own us afterward. He would reject us at the end, if we deny him in our lifetime.

By the way, I want to say on 2 Tim. 2:13. It says:

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

OSAS people interpret this verse means that if we believe not, yet Christ is abideth faithful IN us as picture of Christ already secured us. And Chhrist will not deny us.

But, this verse speaking of Christ, HIMSELF always abideth faithful, and he never deny himself before His Father. It has do nothing with us. Understand clear?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Hi DeafPosttrib!

It also says, if we are dead with Him, we shall live with Him.

So, the question is, Have you been crucified with Christ?

If we are dead with Him, but might yet not live with Him, then can we say If we deny Him, He might not yet deny us?

No

So, if we are dead with Him, we SHALL live with Him (fact)

If we deny Him, He will deny us (fact)

Can denying Him, cancel out our living with Him?
If so, then the first truth is not a truth.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 23rd 2009, 10:51 PM
Here's a question I asked you from a previous post, What "spirit is one with Him"? Please allow me to rephrase, rework, and add to that question:

What "spirit"? Where does this "spirit" come from?

The Scripture that you're using is to the ["whole"] Collective Believers [The Church] at Thessalonica;

They are to be Spiritually led by THE HOLY "SPIRIT", as they are each a "Soul" within The "BODY" of CHRIST.

Luke 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
Luke 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

THOM
Apr 24th 2009, 01:21 AM
Luke 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
Luke 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Okay. . .but please excuse my ignorance; what's your point?

I am not "a spirit"; I possess a "spirit" ("pneuma"="Breath"); which is what both, Luke 8:54-55 and Acts 7:59 is about.

Why?

Because GOD IS SPIRIT (John 4:24NKJV); THE HOLY SPIRIT Indwells me; "THE SPIRIT IS Life (Romans 8:10)".

When GOD "breathed into" Adam's "nostrils, the breath (naphach=to breathe) of life", Adam "became a living soul (Genesis 2:7)". . .not "a living spirit".

And BTW, ". . .IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH...", is actually translated as, 'from within THE HOLY SPIRIT, and according to [TRUTH] THE WORD OF GOD.'

My heart's Desire
Apr 24th 2009, 02:47 AM
When we are reborn, aren't we refreshed by a new breath of life by the Holy Spirit?

VerticalReality
Apr 24th 2009, 03:11 AM
Okay. . .but please excuse my ignorance; what's your point?

I am not "a spirit"; I possess a "spirit" ("pneuma"="Breath"); which is what both, Luke 8:54-55 and Acts 7:59 is about.

Why?

Because GOD IS SPIRIT (John 4:24NKJV); THE HOLY SPIRIT Indwells me; "THE SPIRIT IS Life (Romans 8:10)".

When GOD "breathed into" Adam's "nostrils, the breath (naphach=to breathe) of life", Adam "became a living soul (Genesis 2:7)". . .not "a living spirit".

And BTW, ". . .IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH...", is actually translated as, 'from within THE HOLY SPIRIT, and according to [TRUTH] THE WORD OF GOD.'

pneuma means a lot more than just "breath" . . .

1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouth

Should the following Scriptures read as such:

2 Timothy 4:22
The Lord Jesus Christ be with your breath. Grace be with you. Amen.

and . . .

Romans 1:9-10
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my breath in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers, making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.

9Marksfan
Apr 24th 2009, 09:54 AM
:OFFT:

Sorry folks - wearing my Mod hat here (at The Parson's request for this thread) - this is a thread about ETERNAL SECURITY - not about whether we're a dichotomy or a trichotomy!

Let's keep it on topic, OK?

DeafPosttrib
Apr 24th 2009, 11:13 AM
Hey,

We did discuss about mind, soul, and spirit because The Parson started with his question, 'What thing it saved us- body? mind? or spirit?'

That why, we are discuss according Parson's question.

I did answered his question. Even, I am still discuss on eternal security with verses.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

BroRog
Apr 24th 2009, 02:45 PM
I wonder if Parson's question was a logical implication of the fact that the Bible speaks about salvation in the past tense, present tense, and future tense? There seems to be some sense in which we were saved, some importance sense in which we are saved now, and a future hope of being saved.

The other focus of discussion might be centered on whether we participate in our own salvation or not. And if so, what part do we play?

Putting those together we could search the scriptures to see whether I participated in my being saved in the past tense, whether I participated in my remaining saved, and whether I participate in my future salvation.

Does any of that make sense?

If so, would that be a productive thread to follow?

VerticalReality
Apr 24th 2009, 02:58 PM
I would also like to add the following Scripture as evidence that we have a spirit and it is in need of salvation. Again, our spirit must be born again.



1 Corinthians 5:4-5
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


This passage of Scripture is referring to the immoral brother who was having sexual relations with what many say was his stepmother. Here Paul instructs them to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh in order for his spirit to be saved. If this immoral brother repents of his adultery then his spirit can receive salvation. Unless he repents he will not be saved.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 24th 2009, 05:01 PM
Right. That what I believe. Also, I did read 1 Cor. 5:5 yesterday, I was about plan to make post on 1 Cor. 5:5 about spirit.

Also, in Ezekiel 18:24 tells us, when the righteous turning away from his righteousness way, and doing evil ways, and that righteousness who continue sinning then shall 'die'.

It speaks of spiritually.

Also, Ezekiel chapter 33 say the same thing with chapter 18. If we turn away from our righteousness ways, and continue in sinning, it shall bring us forth to death.

Also, Christ did mentioned on Luke 15:11-32 on prodigal son. Christ says, when a younger son continue in sinning ways, he is dead already. Unless till he repents back to the Lord again, then he shall be alive again. This is clearly speak of spirit.

Therefore, James 1:15-16 telling us, if we continue practice sins in our life, then it shall bring us forth to death. It speaks clear of spirit.

'Day of Redemption' - Luke 21:28 & Eph. 4:30 speaking of our body, soul, and spirit all whole shall be delivery when Christ shall come according to 1 Cor. 15:51-54 as our body shall change into immortality and put into incorruptilble.

Or, another wise, if we continue sinning by the time, Lord comes, then, our spirit will NOT be saved, our body and soul shall be cast away into lake of fire according Matt. 10:28.

Bible teaching us very clear that our salvation is conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The Parson
Apr 24th 2009, 06:12 PM
I wonder if Parson's question was a logical implication of the fact that the Bible speaks about salvation in the past tense, present tense, and future tense? There seems to be some sense in which we were saved, some importance sense in which we are saved now, and a future hope of being saved.

The other focus of discussion might be centered on whether we participate in our own salvation or not. And if so, what part do we play?

Putting those together we could search the scriptures to see whether I participated in my being saved in the past tense, whether I participated in my remaining saved, and whether I participate in my future salvation.

Does any of that make sense?

If so, would that be a productive thread to follow?Yes indeed it would. There are those who wouldn't have much of an argument if salvation was a done deal as opposed to one that isn't completed until death. That's where some of the trouble lays.

Case in point. Perminate, Complete, Never Ending, Un Losable, Cant Wash It Off With Comet, type salvation never was an issue with the church even back to the Waldenessian letters believed that salvation was a keeper no matter what we did. The early stirrings of the RCC are what made this an issue of what they called presumption (of salvation). Not to mention the translations of Origen who said in essence "Did God really say what He meant?" The whole issue is black and white to me. But then again you folks may be equating Baptist Preacher = Conspiracy Theorist. It wouldn't be the first time.

9Marksfan
Apr 24th 2009, 09:39 PM
Yes indeed it would. There are those who wouldn't have much of an argument if salvation was a done deal as opposed to one that isn't completed until death. That's where some of the trouble lays.

Case in point. Perminate, Complete, Never Ending, Un Losable, Cant Wash It Off With Comet, type salvation never was an issue with the church even back to the Waldenessian letters believed that salvation was a keeper no matter what we did. The early stirrings of the RCC are what made this an issue of what they called presumption (of salvation). Not to mention the translations of Origen who said in essence "Did God really say what He meant?" The whole issue is black and white to me. But then again you folks may be equating Baptist Preacher = Conspiracy Theorist. It wouldn't be the first time.

Tim

Re your question about what is saved, do you accept DeafPostTrib's post on this page about body, soul and mind/spirit being saved? Scripture teaches that every part of our humanity will be saved, although not all at the same time (redemption of our bodies won't take place until Christ comes back) - and Peter refers to his readers achieiving their goal, the saving of their souls. What say ye?

dan p
Apr 24th 2009, 10:27 PM
Hi to all , and this how I answer this always asked question .

1) Eph 2:8 , for by grace are you saved .

2) The Greek word SOZO , is in the Greek Perfect Tense , and that means PAST Action with Continuing results , which saved always saved.

3) It is in the Greek Passive , which means that God was doing the action to you .

4) It is also in the Greek Indicative Mood, which means that when you accepted Christ , it is a FACT .

The Parson
Apr 25th 2009, 01:23 AM
Tim

Re your question about what is saved, do you accept DeafPostTrib's post on this page about body, soul and mind/spirit being saved? Scripture teaches that every part of our humanity will be saved, although not all at the same time (redemption of our bodies won't take place until Christ comes back) - and Peter refers to his readers achieiving their goal, the saving of their souls. What say ye?Can't accept it in light of scripture. OK, maybe ya'll are gonna think me a bit simplistic but here it is:

The flesh is corrupt and will never be saved. From dust it came and to dust it will return. We will exchange it for a body like the Saviors. Amen and Glory to God...
1st Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The spirit of man is God's and no matter what spirit it is it will return to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Which leaves the soul folks... James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Nope, cant subscribe to that explanation...

THOM
Apr 25th 2009, 01:37 AM
Should the following Scriptures read as such:

2 Timothy 4:22
The Lord Jesus Christ be with your breath. Grace be with you. Amen.

and . . .

Romans 1:9-10
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my breath in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers, making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.

Since, in both cases, the "breath" given, is FROM GOD, you seem to have already decided how they should "read".

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 01:41 AM
Can't accept it in light of scripture. OK, maybe ya'll are gonna think me a bit simplistic but here it is:

The flesh is corrupt and will never be saved. From dust it came and to dust it will return. We will exchange it for a body like the Saviors. Amen and Glory to God...
1st Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The spirit of man is God's and no matter what spirit it is it will return to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Which leaves the soul folks... James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Nope, cant subscribe to that explanation...

What do you make of this Scripture?

1 Corinthians 5:4-5
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 01:42 AM
Since, in both cases, the "breath" given, is FROM GOD, you seem to have already decided how they should "read".

The Scriptures tell us how they should read. They read "your spirit" and "my spirit".

Why should I allow interpretation to change what the Scriptures say?

The Parson
Apr 25th 2009, 01:49 AM
What do you make of this Scripture?

1 Corinthians 5:4-5
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.I would have no other answer for you except this is one instance where the "spirit" (breath) and "soul" (spiritual man) were used interchangeably by the translators. It still doesn't change the premise my friend. The soul is still that which is saved from destruction (hell).

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 02:04 AM
I would have no other answer for you except this is one instance where the "spirit" (breath) and "soul" (spiritual man) were used interchangeably by the translators. It still doesn't change the premise my friend. The soul is still that which is saved from destruction (hell).

The word is pneuma and it is not translated as "soul" one time in all of the Word of God. It is always translated as either our spirit or the Spirit of God.

Additionally, the James passage you referenced says that the word is able to save our souls. It doesn't say when it saves our souls. However, the word tranforms us and this salvation is a process.

The Parson
Apr 25th 2009, 02:10 AM
The word is pneuma and it is not translated as "soul" one time in all of the Word of God. It is always translated as either our spirit or the Spirit of God.

Additionally, the James passage you referenced says that the word is able to save our souls. It doesn't say when it saves our souls. However, the word tranforms us and this salvation is a process.Bees Knees Louise my friend... It is a rarity for me to have to refer to the Greek but the word used in the Greek here is: (SAVED) 1 Cor. 1:18 sozo, sode'-zo; from a prim. sos (contr. for obsol. saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (lit. or fig.):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. It is also a verb that has a finality about it and not a process. So with no mistake about it we ARE SAVED and not in the process of it. Not trying to derail or be mean spirited (please forgive me if I seem mean spirited) but my bible says otherwise.

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 02:10 AM
Another question, if you don't mind . . .

You refer to the soul as the inward "spiritual man", and you also state that it has already been saved and perfected. My question, if our soul is already saved and perfected why does the word say that our inner man is renewed daily? Why does the inner man need to be renewed daily if it is already saved and perfected?

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 02:11 AM
Bees Knees Louise my friend... It is a rarity for me to have to refer to the Greek but the word used in the Greek here is: sozo, sode'-zo; from a prim. sos (contr. for obsol. saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (lit. or fig.):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. It is also a verb that has a finality about it and not a process. So with no mistake about it we ARE SAVED and not in the process of it. Not trying to derail or be mean spirited (please forgive me if I seem mean spirited) but my bible says otherwise.

Oh, I agree that once that "saved" takes place it is no longer a process. However, the passage you referenced does not state when that "saved" takes place. It just says that the word is able to do it.

The Parson
Apr 25th 2009, 02:16 AM
Do me a favor VR. Would you post 1st Corinthians 1:18 from whatever version you are using please...

The Parson
Apr 25th 2009, 02:18 AM
Another question, if you don't mind . . .

You refer to the soul as the inward "spiritual man", and you also state that it has already been saved and perfected. My question, if our soul is already saved and perfected why does the word say that our inner man is renewed daily? Why does the inner man need to be renewed daily if it is already saved and perfected?Could you also post this verse for me???

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 02:18 AM
Do me a favor VR. Would you post 1st Corinthians 1:18 from whatever version you are using please...

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 02:20 AM
Could you also post this verse for me???

2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

The Parson
Apr 25th 2009, 02:31 AM
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.And you see no saved man here, just a man that is in the process of being saved? I don't get it? Forgive my ignorance but I really don't get it.


2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.Aren't you renewed everyday by the Word of God. The preaching and the Gospel are the basis of this entire chapter. Doesn't the Lord Jesus keep you, restore, and strengthen you while you are stuck in this mortal realm? Again, I don't get your point. We are using the same Bible.

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 02:34 AM
And you see no saved man here, just a man that is in the process of being saved? I don't get it? Forgive my ignorance but I really don't get it.

The born again spirit is saved and perfected. We are perfect and complete in spirit.


Aren't you renewed everyday by the Word of God. The preaching and the Gospel are the basis of this entire chapter. Doesn't the Lord Jesus keep you, restore, and strengthen you while you are stuck in this mortal realm? Again, I don't get your point. We are using the same Bible.

Yes, I am renewed daily in the inner man. My question to you is why a perfected and saved inner man would need it? If our soul (inner man) is perfected then why does it need renewed? It should be perfect.

The Parson
Apr 25th 2009, 02:43 AM
The born again spirit is saved and perfected. We are perfect and complete in spirit.



Yes, I am renewed daily in the inner man. My question to you is why a perfected and saved inner man would need it? If our soul (inner man) is perfected then why does it need renewed? It should be perfect.Don't you believe a soul needs comfort and reassurance? Do you not believe that we can be grieved to our very soul over the events of this world and sin? Hey, tell you what. Let me go home and get some rest and I'll get back you tomorrow on this. Deal?

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 02:50 AM
Don't you believe a soul needs comfort and reassurance? Do you not believe that we can be grieved to our very soul over the events of this world and sin? Hey, tell you what. Let me go home and get some rest and I'll get back you tomorrow on this. Deal?

This renewal is not just about comfort and reassurance. It's about transformation . . .

Romans 12:1-2
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We must be renewed so that we are not conformed to this world. A perfected soul would not have this problem in my estimation.

We'll chat more tomorrow . . .

Have a good night!

THOM
Apr 25th 2009, 02:55 AM
The Scriptures tell us how they should read. They read "your spirit" and "my spirit".

Why should I allow interpretation to change what the Scriptures say?

So what was your purpose for asking me the question?

How is "spirit" used? Is it "THE SPIRIT of GOD"? Or is it a "spirit" as, in "unclean (Zec_13:2; Mat_12:43; Mar_1:23;1:26;3:30;5:8;7:25;9:25; Luk_8:29;9:42;11:24; Rev_18:2;)"? Do you possess this "spirit"? Or does this "spirit" possess you? Do you control this "spirit"? Or does this "spirit" control you? Are you this "spirit"? Or is this "spirit" you?

I stated, from the very beginning, that "spirit" is not part of the makeup of mankind. It is clearly stated by JESUS CHRIST, mankind is made up of "HEART", "SOUL", and "MIND".

Mankind cannot, and does not possess "a spirit"; rather "a spirit" possesses mankind. It should be THE HOLY SPIRIT and/or THE SPIRIT of GOD. . .which can come only from GOD; but oftimes it is "a spirit" of something ungodly.

If you believe that my "interpretation to change what the Scriptures say" states something other than what I have stated here, and elsewhere, then by all means, please point it out specifically. And let's give our FATHER in Heaven all THE GLORY. Agree?

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 03:04 AM
I stated, from the very beginning, that "spirit" is not part of the makeup of mankind. It is clearly stated by JESUS CHRIST, mankind is made up of "HEART", "SOUL", and "MIND".

Our Lord wasn't mentioning anything about the "make up of man" when He made that statement. In the parallel passage from Mark and Luke the Lord includes strength. So are we to now assume that the "make up" of man is heart, soul, mind and strength? Jesus was not talking at all about the make up of man.


Mankind cannot, and does not possess "a spirit"; rather "a spirit" possesses mankind. It should be THE HOLY SPIRIT and/or THE SPIRIT of GOD. . .which can come only from GOD; but oftimes it is "a spirit" of something ungodly.

I've already referred you to numerous passages where they stated "my spirit" or "your spirit". They did not say God's Spirit or "a spirit".


If you believe that my "interpretation to change what the Scriptures say" states something other than what I have stated here, and elsewhere, then by all means, please point it out specifically.

It has already been pointed out. Your interpretation has to change verses to say something other than what they say. I've pointed you to several Scriptures that speak of "your spirit", "my spirit", and so forth. I have also referred you to a passage that says the spirit must be saved. There's not really much else that can be done. If that doesn't work then there is nothing more to really say.

9Marksfan
Apr 25th 2009, 11:45 AM
Can't accept it in light of scripture. OK, maybe ya'll are gonna think me a bit simplistic but here it is:

The flesh is corrupt and will never be saved. From dust it came and to dust it will return. We will exchange it for a body like the Saviors. Amen and Glory to God...

But just as Jesus' resurrection body was the renewal of his earthly body (you do believe that, don't you?), so our resurrection bodies will be made OUT OF our earthly bodies - no matter how decomposed! If our resurrection bodies are "off the shelf", so to speak, and bear no connection to the bodies we have just now, then why does Paul speak about the redemption of our bodies, if they're not going to be redeemed but REPLACED?

This is my proof text - and I'll make it KJV just to keep ya happy!

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20-21 KJV

Now if that ain't the CLEAREST possible indicator that, just as he made Adam out of the dust of the ground, so he'll make our NEW BODIES out of the dust of the old ones, I don't know what is! And if we're alive when he comes, no off the shelf bodies then either!

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15:51-52 KJV

I really feel you're teaching a kind if duallism, Tim - another proof text for ya to chew on:-

And the very God of pwhole spieace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess 5:23 KJV

The Parson
Apr 25th 2009, 01:29 PM
No duality sir... This doctrine has been a point of disagreement for centuries brother. 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

If this corruptible flesh is the instrument of incorruptable how can it be incorruptable was the common argument. The same argument was used to say that in the end, the New Heaven and New Earth are actually the old ones transformed. Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Yet the scripture says they were passed away. Have you ever heard someone describe the death of a loved one as "They have passed away"? That would be the same concept. Anyway, why would heaven and earth have to be replaced with a new Heaven and Earth? The reason is they have both seen sin. Heaven with the rebellion of Satan and Earth with the fall of man.

And why would the old flesh have to pass away? Paul said it plainly: Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

He was talking about this flesh. And I can't possibly fathom this flesh ever being able to be the instrument that is the glorified body. What I can fathom is this corruptable flesh being replaced with incorruptable. But I did say this have been an area of contention for centuries...

The Parson
Apr 25th 2009, 01:54 PM
This renewal is not just about comfort and reassurance. It's about transformation . . .

Romans 12:1-2
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We must be renewed so that we are not conformed to this world. A perfected soul would not have this problem in my estimation.

We'll chat more tomorrow . . .

Have a good night!Well, Okey Dokey... Consider the following verses... 2nd Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

I know that you probably believe this is the spirit groaning as well as you surely know I believe this is the soul. But none the less there is a groaning because it is effected by the sinful flesh and is wanting to be released and placed in the unsinful and uncorruptable body. Tell you what VR, if I'm wrong, let me know in heaven and I'll still be rejoicing with you at the foot of the Lord... Deal?

Oh, and notice the term used by Paul when describing the death of the flesh. He says disolved. What happens when something is desolved my dear brother Marksfan...

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 04:19 PM
I know that you probably believe this is the spirit groaning as well as you surely know I believe this is the soul. But none the less there is a groaning because it is effected by the sinful flesh and is wanting to be released and placed in the unsinful and uncorruptable body.

You're right. I believe it is talking about our spirit. I believe just as our Savior groaned in the spirit because of the corruption of this world, I believe our spirit also groans . . .

John 11:32-33
Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.


Tell you what VR, if I'm wrong, let me know in heaven and I'll still be rejoicing with you at the foot of the Lord... Deal?

You got it! :thumbsup:

9Marksfan
Apr 26th 2009, 09:21 PM
If this corruptible flesh is the instrument of incorruptable how can it be incorruptable was the common argument. The same argument was used to say that in the end, the New Heaven and New Earth are actually the old ones transformed. Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Yet the scripture says they were passed away. Have you ever heard someone describe the death of a loved one as "They have passed away"? That would be the same concept.

Jesus passed away - but His original earthly body was changed into His new heavenly body. And here's something to think about - if Jesus bore our sins IN HIS OWN BODY on the tree - ie maade sin for us, then didn't the resurrection body in a sense "purge" the original body of those sins, which he bore in it? Never had the thought until now...


Anyway, why would heaven and earth have to be replaced with a new Heaven and Earth? The reason is they have both seen sin. Heaven with the rebellion of Satan and Earth with the fall of man.

Who says it's the third heaven? Always thought it was the first two (ie the created universe).


And why would the old flesh have to pass away? Paul said it plainly: Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

He was talking about this flesh. And I can't possibly fathom this flesh ever being able to be the instrument that is the glorified body. What I can fathom is this corruptable flesh being replaced with incorruptable. But I did say this have been an area of contention for centuries...

You seem to be mixing up the flesh (sarx) with the body (soma) - Rom 12:1 tells us we are to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to God - now if our flesh and our bodes are one and the same, how can offering something essentially and utterly sinful (our bodies = flesh) be our "reasonable service"?

:hmm:

The Parson
Apr 27th 2009, 08:51 PM
Jesus passed away - but His original earthly body was changed into His new heavenly body. And here's something to think about - if Jesus bore our sins IN HIS OWN BODY on the tree - ie maade sin for us, then didn't the resurrection body in a sense "purge" the original body of those sins, which he bore in it? Never had the thought until now...There isn't a plain language verse that tells me the flesh's sin nature in actually purged. As for the Savior. Is there a plain verse that tell us this is what happened?


Who says it's the third heaven? Always thought it was the first two (ie the created universe).Here is where I would say - Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. First doesn't mean a stage like stage one, stage two, or stage three I don't believe brother. First means original as I see it.



You seem to be mixing up the flesh (sarx) with the body (soma) - Rom 12:1 tells us we are to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to God - now if our flesh and our bodes are one and the same, how can offering something essentially and utterly sinful (our bodies = flesh) be our "reasonable service"?
:hmm:Am I? Gee, I hope not... Can there be a misconception there? Or do you believe this may possibly be an over dissection of the meanings?

ZAB
Apr 28th 2009, 04:02 PM
10 Reasons why we are eternally saved


It seems to us unimaginable how the ever-glorious God of heaven could humbly clothe Himself with human flesh, come as a man to this earth, live a perfect and stainless life, so that He could offer the perfect sacrifice for sins. It seems even further hard to grasp how He could do this for a people who mocked and ridiculed Him from A to Z. How wonderfully grateful we are that God is not a man (Numbers 23:19)! He doesn't think according to how a man would think. He doesn't give us what we deserve, as a natural man would do. Thank God! His heart is so different than what has been portrayed to us. One of the most marvelous passages of Scripture regarding our eternal salvation and the unbreakable covenant that has been made is found in 1 Corinthians 11:23. It says, "the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread..." Can we see it? Do we notice the wondrous mercies that are in action here? On the very night He was betrayed and handed over to die, He made covenant. He saw what was fast approaching and even then, in the midst of it all, He took bread and portrayed the "new covenant" between Himself and His Father. If God could make such a covenant regarding men in the midst of such betrayal, what then would man have to do in order to lose out on this covenant? Man can do nothing! The covenant is between the Son and His Father. Man could do nothing "good enough" to get saved (Ephesians 2:8), so why are we so quick to say that man has done something "bad enough" to lose this place of salvation? One cannot lose something that he has not himself gained. What follows are ten simple principles that explain our salvation and its eternality.

1. Our salvation is a covenant between the Father and the Son:
- Psalm 89:27-37 with Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1:2, 6
- Jeremiah 32:40 – an everlasting covenant (Hebrews 5:9 "eternal salvation")
- Hebrews 13:20-21; Psalm 105:10; Isaiah 54:8-10; 55:3; 61:8; Ezekiel 16:60; Psalm 111:5-9; Isaiah 59:20-21; Deuteronomy 7:6; Hosea 2:16-20; 2 Samuel 23:5.

2. His gifts are irrevocable:
- Ephesians 2:8; Romans 6:23 with Romans 11:29; Numbers 23:19; James 1:17.


3. We are passed from death to life by grace – Our spirits are made perfect:
-John 5:24; Hebrews 12:23; 9:11-15; 1 Corinthians 6:17.


4. It is an everlasting salvation:
- Isaiah 45:17; Hebrews 5:9; Psalm 119:142; Jeremiah 31:3; John 6:35-40.


5. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
- Romans 8:31, 35-39; Psalm 103:17; Jeremiah 31:3; John 13:1; 10:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 16; Psalm 77:7-14; Isaiah 49:13-16; 1 Kings 8:56.


6. What God does is forever:
- Ecclesiastes 3:14; Isaiah 32:17; Hebrews 10:10, 14; 12:28; 13:20; Psalm 37:23-28; Isaiah 51:6-8; John 14:16-17; Psalm 112:1-6, 9; 1 Peter 1:3-5, 23; Malachi 3:6; Genesis 28:15.

7. We are sealed:
- Ephesians 1:12-14; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 4:30. "Sealed" in the Greek means, "to stamp for security or preservation".


8. Jesus is the Author and Finisher, not us:
- Hebrews 12:2; Psalm 138:8; Philippians 1:6; 1 Corinthians 1:8; Philippians 2:13; 2 Chronicles 30:12; John 3:27; 2 Corinthians 3:5; James 1:17.


9. Our salvation is secure, but our reward is yet to be determined:
- 1 Corinthians 3:13-15; 9:24; 15:41-42; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Philippians 3:14; Jeremiah 31:16; Psalm 18:20; Revelation 22;12; 2 John 1:8; Matthew 5:12; 10:41-42; 16:27; Luke 6:23; 14:10-11. Many times we read Scriptures that refer to our eternal reward and mistake them as refering to our salvation. It is possible to lose one's reward, but not one's salvation.

10. What about sin? Can we voluntarily choose to leave Him?
2 Samuel 23:3-5; 2 Sam 7:14-16; Psalm 89:27-34

kenramse
Apr 28th 2009, 05:53 PM
OK, hold the boat guys... This is heading in the same direction as every other thread. Honestly, one side really not listening to the other. For instance, I've asked one simple question twice and it still hasn't been addressed. Let me ask you all then...

What is it that is saved about us? Flesh, Mind, or Soul???

This question goes beyond your original question about eternal security. It also raises another question which requires discussion because of either misunderstanding or not understanding and that is what is man and what is "saved" in salvation. These points of course need to be addressed in a different thread which can support whichever direction you want this discussion to

In another post in this thread you stated that man is flesh, mind, and soul. quoting Genesis

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

There are 2 views of man. One is that man is flesh and soul.
The other is that man is tripartite as being flesh, soul, and spirit.

You seem to have conbined the two into a different one saying that man is flesh, mind, and soul...

I believe in the doctrine of man being flesh, soul, and spirit as Paul said:

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Body= the flesh and blood and bone.
Soul= personality, intellect, will
Spirit=intuition and spirit.

I didn't want to digress from the discussion about eternal security but did want to hopefully provide a thought or two about what is affected by "salvation."

So back to the discussion...

ZAB
Apr 28th 2009, 08:44 PM
To answer the above quoted question... Just as we are a tripartite being (spirit, soul and body - made in the image of God), so we have a three-fold salvation as well: justification, sanctification and glorification. 2 Cor 1:10 says, "Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us..." It is three-fold. Upon our initial salvation, the spirits of just men (justified men) are made perfect (Heb 12:23). He that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit (1 Cor 6:17), thus perfect in spirit, unable to be corrupted (incorruptible seed).
We are daily being saved (sanctified) in our souls from glory to glory, faith to faith, strength to strength, etc (2 Cor 3:18; Rom 1:17). The path of the just (the justified) is as a shing light that shineth more and more unto that perfect day (Prov 4:18). Our bodies will ultimately be glorified (Phil 3:21).

To break it down further:
Justification - Eph 5:25
Sanctification - Eph 5:26
Glorification - Eph 5:27

9Marksfan
Apr 28th 2009, 10:15 PM
There isn't a plain language verse that tells me the flesh's sin nature in actually purged.

It folllows from the corruptible/incorruptible passages - and Phil 3:20-21, which tells us that Gid takes what's left of our original body to make it a recognisable resurrection body - not "off the shelf"!


As for the Savior. Is there a plain verse that tell us this is what happened?

Only that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God - He needed a resurrection body to get back to glory. And if he BORE our sins in His first body, where did they go? When were they removed? I'm guessing you'll agree that there was no trace of imputed sin in His resurrection body - right?


Here is where I would say - Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. First doesn't mean a stage like stage one, stage two, or stage three I don't believe brother. First means original as I see it.

Agreed - but why are you restricting "heaven" to mean the third heaven only? IS it created? If so, where did God dwell before it was......?? :hmm:


Am I? Gee, I hope not... Can there be a misconception there? Or do you believe this may possibly be an over dissection of the meanings?

No dissection in the Greek, my friend - two quite separate words! Our bodies contain the "flesh" this side of eternity, for sure - but there will be no "flesh" in our resurrection bodies, which are the renewed flesh-expunged bodies we had in the first place! :)

The ole' phrase "good and necessary inference" comes to mind when I think about what we are NOW compared to what we will be THEN!

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