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Partaker of Christ
Apr 22nd 2009, 07:49 PM
Marriage

What constitutes a marriage according to scripture?
Does a marriage, have to have a wedding ceremony, and some sort of legal certificate?

My only understanding from scripture, of what qualifies as a marriage is:

The blessing from both sets of parents, for their children to leave.

Gen 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

Matt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Matt 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Matt 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

HisLeast
Apr 22nd 2009, 07:51 PM
There are a multitude of other examples in the Bible that showed that marriage is contractual, involves familial consent, and involves the community at large.

crossnote
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:44 AM
Marriage

What constitutes a marriage according to scripture?
Does a marriage, have to have a wedding ceremony, and some sort of legal certificate?

My only understanding from scripture, of what qualifies as a marriage is:

The blessing from both sets of parents, for their children to leave.

Gen 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

Matt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Matt 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Matt 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

A Man, A Woman, a contract of lifelong commitment, and hopefully acknowledging the God of Scriptures.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:02 PM
A Man, A Woman, a contract of lifelong commitment, and hopefully acknowledging the God of Scriptures.

Thanks, but I am trying to establish if such things as a wedding ceremony, a 'legal' certificate, a registrar, etc are requirements, before someone could be classed 'in God's eyes' as married.

If a man and a woman, have the blessing of their parents to leave them, and become man and wife, and they live together, but not had a ceremony, or produced some sort of certificate, are they married?

VerticalReality
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:15 PM
Thanks, but I am trying to establish if such things as a wedding ceremony, a 'legal' certificate, a registrar, etc are requirements, before someone could be classed 'in God's eyes' as married.

If a man and a woman, have the blessing of their parents to leave them, and become man and wife, and they live together, but not had a ceremony, or produced some sort of certificate, are they married?

Man and woman are stranded on a deserted island . . .

There are no witnesses . . .

There is no preacher . . .

There is no legal paperwork . . .

Is it possible for them to marry or do they just have to live apart from one another with hope that one day they are rescued so they can be legally joined in marriage by paperwork?

I'm not trying to say that folks shouldn't take care of the legal paperwork according to the laws they are living under. However, what really binds a marriage?

I've seen folks throw out all sorts of requirements yet there isn't much Scripture to back it. Yes, Jewish tradition had witnesses and a ceremony and so forth. However, the Word of God does not state this is a requirement for marriage, and in all reality, what about the example above? What if a man and woman do not have the option of witnesses, a preacher, a ceremony or legal paperwork? They have no hope of marriage? I doubt that.

cross crusader
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:21 PM
marriage is an everlasting covenant. biblically cant covenant just be spoken betweeen two people, i mean they dont need a sacrifice in all cases.

NotMyOwn
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:30 PM
There is no marriage ceremony in the sense that we have, but we as believers we are supposed to obey the rules of the authorities, and they at least required a certificate and an official to oversee and legally bind the two parties together.

VerticalReality
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:34 PM
There is no marriage ceremony in the sense that we have, but we as believers we are supposed to obey the rules of the authorities, and they at least required a certificate and an official to oversee and legally bind the two parties together.

What authority are Christians under that requires anything to bind a marriage in God's eyes? Sure, if a man and woman want to be acknowledged by the government as being married they need all sorts of things. However, the issue in this thread is what does a man and woman need to be married in the sight of God.

Walstib
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:01 PM
Man and woman are stranded on a deserted island . . .

I love the desert island scenario! Gives context to so many things.

Make them unable to have intercourse and you get some more. ;)

Here is my best stab at it.

A point in time reached by two hearts (M+F) that shows the moment both agree to stay together for life with no backing out.

For me this was mutually decided to be on a specific day in front of witnesses. :)

Partaker of Christ
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:00 PM
Man and woman are stranded on a deserted island . . .

There are no witnesses . . .

There is no preacher . . .

There is no legal paperwork . . .

Is it possible for them to marry or do they just have to live apart from one another with hope that one day they are rescued so they can be legally joined in marriage by paperwork?

I'm not trying to say that folks shouldn't take care of the legal paperwork according to the laws they are living under. However, what really binds a marriage?

I've seen folks throw out all sorts of requirements yet there isn't much Scripture to back it. Yes, Jewish tradition had witnesses and a ceremony and so forth. However, the Word of God does not state this is a requirement for marriage, and in all reality, what about the example above? What if a man and woman do not have the option of witnesses, a preacher, a ceremony or legal paperwork? They have no hope of marriage? I doubt that.

Thanks VerticalReality!

I think you grasped my question!

I often struggle with writing down, what I want to ask or say.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:08 PM
There is no marriage ceremony in the sense that we have, but we as believers we are supposed to obey the rules of the authorities, and they at least required a certificate and an official to oversee and legally bind the two parties together.

Thanks NotMyOwn!

Given that we are to obey governments and authorities, can we look at a different view. If a man wants to divorce his wife, for any other reason then fornication, and the authorities grant the divorce. Are the couple 'in God's eyes' divorced and free to marry again?

What I am getting at is, do authorities overrule God?

Partaker of Christ
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:19 PM
I love the desert island scenario! Gives context to so many things.

Make them unable to have intercourse and you get some more. ;)

Here is my best stab at it.

A point in time reached by two hearts (M+F) that shows the moment both agree to stay together for life with no backing out.

For me this was mutually decided to be on a specific day in front of witnesses. :)

Thanks Walstib!

I agree with your answer, 'but' :lol:

If a father (in some o/t tradition) gives his daughter (with or without her consent) to another for to be a wife, can we say that the two hearts were made together in making a commitment?

I mean the daughter may in heart, have agreed in honour to her father, but not the man who she is to be a wife.

karenoka27
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:34 PM
Romans 13:1-"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
Romans 13:7-Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

I believe God would have us to obey the laws that are set over us. If your country says that marriage is a contract that is signed then so be it.

Edit: sorry I missed the posts above mine. With that said. The Bible says that God has established the authorities over us. Like Saul becoming King, It was God who chose him. It is God still who allows for governing authorities to be over us. We are called to obey the laws of the land.

NotMyOwn
Apr 23rd 2009, 10:45 PM
Thanks NotMyOwn!

Given that we are to obey governments and authorities, can we look at a different view. If a man wants to divorce his wife, for any other reason then fornication, and the authorities grant the divorce. Are the couple 'in God's eyes' divorced and free to marry again?

What I am getting at is, do authorities overrule God?

No, the authorities only deserve our obedience when the laws they pass do not oppose God's law and authority. Such an example is gay marriage.

jayne
Apr 24th 2009, 02:25 AM
Here's an answer I gave not to long ago when someone else asked the same question. I'll just copy, paste, and edit it for this thread.
.................................................. ................................

There are no passages in the bible that blatantly state, "Do this and thou shalt be married."

You do need a piece of paper in the United States to say that you are married. It's a legal document. The Bible says that we are to obey our governing authorities. (The specific verse is in the link below.)

Most importantly, to me, is the passage where Jesus was speaking to the woman at the well. (John 4) He asked for her husband. She said that she was not married. He said, "I know....you have had 5 husbands and the man that you are living with now....you are not married to him."

Jesus definitely made a distinction between being married and living together. Jesus attended formal wedding ceremonies.

Whether or not people in the bible underwent a legal proceeding, they did marry by some sort of ceremony.

The link below discusses three points of view about what constitutes biblical marriage. I believe that the last paragraph is the most critical.

http://www.gotquestions.org/marriage-constitutes.html



So, what constitutes marriage in God’s eyes? It would seem that the following principles should be followed. (1) As long as the requirements are reasonable and not against the Bible, a couple should seek whatever formal governmental recognition that is available. (2) A couple should follow whatever cultural and familial practices are typically employed to recognize a couple as “officially married.” (3) If possible, a couple should consummate the marriage, fulfilling the physical aspect of the “one flesh” principle.

VerticalReality
Apr 24th 2009, 03:19 AM
Romans 13:1-"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
Romans 13:7-Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

I believe God would have us to obey the laws that are set over us. If your country says that marriage is a contract that is signed then so be it.

Edit: sorry I missed the posts above mine. With that said. The Bible says that God has established the authorities over us. Like Saul becoming King, It was God who chose him. It is God still who allows for governing authorities to be over us. We are called to obey the laws of the land.


That being said, though, being married in the eyes of the government is not what the OP is asking. The OP is asking what does it mean to be married in the eyes of God. The governing authorities do not require folks who live together to have a certificate of marriage.

Folks say that we are supposed to obey the governing authorities like the government cares one lick about whether two people are married or not. The government doesn't care if two people get married. However, if two people want to have the tax breaks and things like that then they will need to have the paperwork necessary to show they are married. However, in the eyes of God this same couple could have already been married for a while.

What if the couple doesn't care about being acknowledged as married by the government? There's no governing law making it necessary for all folks who live together to be married. Therefore, couldn't someone be married in the eyes of God without the paperwork from the government?

VerticalReality
Apr 24th 2009, 03:22 AM
No, the authorities only deserve our obedience when the laws they pass do not oppose God's law and authority. Such an example is gay marriage.

The governing authority does not have a law proclaiming that two people living together must have a marriage certificate. What if the two people do not care about being recognized by the government as married? Perhaps some couples only care about being recognized by God as being married. God's Word does not say that we must be recognized by the governing authorities as married if we want Him to acknowledge us as married.

VerticalReality
Apr 24th 2009, 03:25 AM
Whether or not people in the bible underwent a legal proceeding, they did marry by some sort of ceremony.

Sure, the Jewish custom was to have a ceremony. However, I would think such a big event would be cause for celebration in the family. I think this is simply something that families enjoy doing when one of their own is taking such a huge step in their lives. However, the Scriptures do not command it. Is it nice and fun to celebrate with family on such an occasion? Sure. Is it a commandment? Nowhere in the Word do I see it.

Adam and Eve had no ceremony that I know of. They certainly didn't have a preacher or witnesses. The only thing present was them and the Lord.

bagofseed
Apr 24th 2009, 03:47 AM
Marriage

What constitutes a marriage according to scripture?

God created marriage how?
By making the one man into two separate physical beings.
Marriage was created in that process, allowing for a physical rejoining of the flesh.

Or more plainly, sex = marriage.

Clearly the verse about becoming one flesh is about marriage.

But so it the verse about becoming one flesh with a prostitute.
I am not aware of any ceremony or traditions associated in that case.

Sex is just as serious as marriage, and should be looked at that way. because it is marriage.

It is not taught that way, so we find many young Christians having sex thinking it's no a big deal, its not like they are getting married or something.

Have our traditions have gotten in the way?
Has the traditional understanding become something that is causing our young people to stumble?

Regarding the woman at the well, this can also be seen as the woman being in five sexual relationships and now living with a man but in a non sexual relationship (aka not a husband, considering her first statement)

But also consider her later testimony saying of Jesus "He has told me everything I have ever done". Not the statement I would expect from someone who told you how many men you had been openly married to in the past.

How did Adam and Even get married?

crossnote
Apr 24th 2009, 05:30 AM
Thanks, but I am trying to establish if such things as a wedding ceremony, a 'legal' certificate, a registrar, etc are requirements, before someone could be classed 'in God's eyes' as married.

If a man and a woman, have the blessing of their parents to leave them, and become man and wife, and they live together, but not had a ceremony, or produced some sort of certificate, are they married?

I gave you the minimum requrements for a marriage in 'God's eyes'.
The State thing is advisable to help protect the spouse in case of legal recourse, property disputes, desertion, etc.

Walstib
Apr 24th 2009, 02:00 PM
I believe God would have us to obey the laws that are set over us. If your country says that marriage is a contract that is signed then so be it.

Edit: sorry I missed the posts above mine. With that said. The Bible says that God has established the authorities over us. Like Saul becoming King, It was God who chose him. It is God still who allows for governing authorities to be over us. We are called to obey the laws of the land.

I agree with you. I see another side though.

I married my wonderful wife in Finland where the state only recognizes the Lutheran pastors and a few others to oversee the state part of the wedding. My wife had a pastor from her youth she was good family friends with and we wanted him to oversee our vows to each other before God.

On the 17th we went to city hall and had 2 min legal marriage according to the authorities. But we did not consider ourselves married as we had a public ceremony with family and friends planned on the 20th with God as the focus. And it was beautiful.

So we obeyed the laws of the land but I don't think of the day in city hall as being our anniversary. Most times both obedience to governing authorities and the time of the wedding are at the same time. I don't see they need to be though. :hug:

Walstib
Apr 24th 2009, 02:15 PM
If a father (in some o/t tradition) gives his daughter (with or without her consent) to another for to be a wife, can we say that the two hearts were made together in making a commitment?

I mean the daughter may in heart, have agreed in honour to her father, but not the man who she is to be a wife.

Man you gave me a tough one :)

I think there is room for this scenario to honor God when done with everyone putting God and others before themselves. A father with righteous intentions would not agree to a man that would not be a good match for his daughter. Also room for a daughter to have trust and faith her father enough to truly give herself to the man freely from her own will. Hmmm.. sounds like the church a little..;)

I think there is danger for this system to be abused, but that goes for most things eh.

Peace,
Joe

kay-gee
Apr 25th 2009, 02:24 AM
There is a word for it. (A marriage without the legalities and formalities) It's called common-law or more informally, "shacking up."

all the best...

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 02:26 AM
There is a word for it. (A marriage without the legalities and formalities) It's called common-law or more informally, "shacking up."

all the best...

Where is this word located? Were Adam and Eve just "shacking up"?

The Parson
Apr 25th 2009, 02:38 AM
Cant help but reposting something I wrote a year or two ago. Hope you don't mind:


First, the early marriage of Adam and Eve was consecrated by God Himself. Marriage in fact is the first institution established by God for man. And it being the first must be important. So important that the Savior likens the relationship of Himself and the church as a marriage which will be consecrated in Heaven at the marriage feast.

As far as the importance here, because God established marriage brought the woman to Adam for the express purpose of being his wife. Even more than that, a vow or pronouncement was made by man that the woman will be flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone because she was taken out of man. Genesis 2:21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 2:22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. This same pronouncement is made over the bride and the groom by the man of God. Henceforth the last pronouncement made: Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Now, just as it has been for many a century the bride and groom come to the man of God so that this pronouncement can be made to more witnesses. That's why the pronouncement has to be made in front of witnesses.

One other thing that you need to look at... There is a pesky verse that gets in the way of many who don't see the need to go in front of the man of God to be pronounced... In other words, shack up. The law says that unless a marriage has been solemized, it will not recognize it as a binding marriage in their eyes. Sooooooo, that peskey verse: Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

Here then, if a marriage hasn't been solemized, is a double whammey. It isn't recognized as a marriage by the church and also not recognized by the powers that be...

One other thing. Marriage is a covenant made between a man and a woman before God. If it is a covenant made before God, many would think twice about destroying the marriage that God has joined together by marriage. In my eyes it is like breaking a promise to God to be faithful to the one He has joined them together with. If there is no covenant (pronouncement before witnesses) then God most certainly does not condone it. Mathew 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Even one step further. Unless a marriage between a Christian and another Christian or even a Christian and an unbeliever has been pronounced by the man of God or a magistrate in the sight of witnesses, before God, it is a unholy thing. 1st Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. A faithful Christian would not have it any other way.

I know I took it a bit farther than premaritual sex but that's where ya'll seemed to be heading...

bagofseed
Apr 25th 2009, 03:07 AM
What can I say but that the covenant of marriage that God has established can not be subjugated to the laws and traditions of men.

Where mans laws are not in conflict with Gods we are to keep them, mostly for the sake of peace.

But Gods covenants and laws stand alone and above all others, and we dare not add or take away.

This is my concern, that we have added our traditions and in doing so have taken away from the poignant truth.

That is that all other things aside sex is what makes it a marriage.

Our culture has been injured by seeing sex as anything less then marriage and our religious trappings and lack of clear teaching is largely to blame.

crossnote
Apr 25th 2009, 06:46 AM
The wedding at Cana...did they go before Herod's regime for it to be legalized? I'm not try to be facetious but what was Jewish law concerning marriage when in subjection to pagan authorities?

Walstib
Apr 25th 2009, 09:52 AM
Our culture has been injured by seeing sex as anything less then marriage and our religious trappings and lack of clear teaching is largely to blame.

Well it might as well be me...

I am sorry but I'm going to state my disagreement with what you are trying to teach here. I do not believe sex equals marriage.

Let me just ask you this question. If my wife was raped by someone does that mean she would be married to them after it happened?

Now if you say "not in this instance", it does not make a blanket statement like you have given very credible.

That and I have no idea what I would do with all the wives I would have from my life before I believed under your view. I don't need to say the number but it's more than a couple. Did I divorce the first one when I slept with the second or am I married to all of them in your view? What does that mean to my wife now?

You don't have to answer these, to me they are rhetorical, but if you keep you view in light of what I asked I'll say it would at least be interesting to see what your answers are.

In Peace,
Joe

kay-gee
Apr 25th 2009, 11:45 AM
Where is this word located? Were Adam and Eve just "shacking up"?


LOL! Could it be that since they were the only two people on the planet at the time, that maybe there were no preachers, witnesses, Churches, Synagogues, or Courthouses, or civil statutes? Perhaps their situation was a little unique in which to base the norm. I mean like...D'uh!

God married them.

all the best...

karenoka27
Apr 25th 2009, 12:28 PM
That being said, though, being married in the eyes of the government is not what the OP is asking. The OP is asking what does it mean to be married in the eyes of God. The governing authorities do not require folks who live together to have a certificate of marriage.

Folks say that we are supposed to obey the governing authorities like the government cares one lick about whether two people are married or not. The government doesn't care if two people get married. However, if two people want to have the tax breaks and things like that then they will need to have the paperwork necessary to show they are married. However, in the eyes of God this same couple could have already been married for a while.

What if the couple doesn't care about being acknowledged as married by the government? There's no governing law making it necessary for all folks who live together to be married. Therefore, couldn't someone be married in the eyes of God without the paperwork from the government?

I stand corrected. I was thinking of a legally bound marriage and what constitutes one. Yes the government doesn't care if you live together but you are also not considered married. Of course unless you live together for 7 years and then it is called a common law marriage.

I just saw on the news this morning that a "proposal" funny use of the word...was made that marriages should only be good for 7 years. After that,both parties are free to walk away. So much for obeying the government.

Like anything, I believe if you feel you have to question something, get on your knees before God and ask "Him" what you should do. The Bible clearly says that whatever we do,should bring glory to His name. Does living together do that? Ask Him.....

Just for the record, I always thought it would be so beautiful to get married with just two people before God and no one else around. If you make a promise before Him with the intent of breaking it....yikes!

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 04:29 PM
LOL! Could it be that since they were the only two people on the planet at the time, that maybe there were no preachers, witnesses, Churches, Synagogues, or Courthouses, or civil statutes? Perhaps their situation was a little unique in which to base the norm. I mean like...D'uh!

God married them.

all the best...

So, this begs the question. Why are we convinced that this government contract tradition that we have is what makes a marriage?



Genesis 24:62-67
Now Isaac came from the way of Beer Lahai Roi, for he dwelt in the South. And Isaac went out to meditate in the field in the evening; and he lifted his eyes and looked, and there, the camels were coming. Then Rebekah lifted her eyes, and when she saw Isaac she dismounted from her camel; for she had said to the servant, “Who is this man walking in the field to meet us?” The servant said, “It is my master.” So she took a veil and covered herself. And the servant told Isaac all the things that he had done. Then Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah’s tent; and he took Rebekah and she became his wife, and he loved her. So Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.


Where is the preacher or the witnesses in this passage? Where's the government contract to match our tradition?

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 04:33 PM
Like anything, I believe if you feel you have to question something, get on your knees before God and ask "Him" what you should do. The Bible clearly says that whatever we do,should bring glory to His name. Does living together do that? Ask Him.....

Just "living together", in my opinion, is just shacking up. However, what if two people come together in faith, make vows to one another in their heart to love, honor and cherish each other before God for the rest of their days, and commit to serve one another till death separates them? Then, following this they consummate their covenant made in love through sharing the marriage bed?

Are these two considered married in the eyes of our Lord?

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 04:46 PM
I also want to clarify myself here because I don't want anyone to misunderstand.

I'm in FULL SUPPORT of having the wedding ceremony with family and friends. I love the traditions of having a man of God oversee this union that is made before the Lord within the church. I love, love, love it! I don't want anyone to think that I support folks just running out and doing things on their own.

However, the point I'm making here is what exactly joins a man and woman in the sight of the Lord. What "seals the deal", so to speak.

karenoka27
Apr 25th 2009, 04:56 PM
Just "living together", in my opinion, is just shacking up. However, what if two people come together in faith, make vows to one another in their heart to love, honor and cherish each other before God for the rest of their days, and commit to serve one another till death separates them? Then, following this they consummate their covenant made in love through sharing the marriage bed?

Are these two considered married in the eyes of our Lord?

I still have to go with "no." If the laws of the land you live in consider marriage to be a signing of an agreement before witnesses and recorded with your state then you are to obey those laws according to God's Word as I have stated previously.

The danger with two people coming together in love before God is that it's so easy to say "what I meant then, I don't mean now and I'm not even walking with God anymore.." something like that. If we go by the law,it's a little harder to get out of...well it used to be!:rolleyes:

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 07:14 PM
I still have to go with "no." If the laws of the land you live in consider marriage to be a signing of an agreement before witnesses and recorded with your state then you are to obey those laws according to God's Word as I have stated previously.

We take this "law of the land" thing quite liberally, though. The law of the land says many absurd things that any true Christian absolutely refuses to go along with. Some states the law of the land says that gays can marry. To say that only the marriages that are recognized by the law of the land are true marriages in the eyes of the Lord is simply picking and choosing what laws we want to recognize. Nowhere in the Word of God does it say that only the marriages that are acknowledged by the law of the land are true marriages in the eyes of the Lord.


The danger with two people coming together in love before God is that it's so easy to say "what I meant then, I don't mean now and I'm not even walking with God anymore.." something like that. If we go by the law,it's a little harder to get out of...well it used to be!:rolleyes:

It's no easier. In fact, I would argue that it is harder. Those who only care about the law of the land when they get married have more of a tendency to take marriage lightly in my view. Those who know full well that they are coming before the Lord with their covenant in their heart have more of a tendency to care what God thinks about what they are doing. It's certainly not the law of the land that makes me love my wife and want to honor her in love regardless of what we're going through. It's the love of the Lord in me that makes me want to do this.

If two people really want to divorce . . . a silly old court system based around the law of the land isn't going to make it any more difficult of a decision for them. In the end, though . . . wouldn't that be a shallow reason to NOT want a divorce? I don't want a divorce because I love my wife and I love the Lord. I don't stear away from divorce simply because I would have to go through the law of the land to do it.

karenoka27
Apr 25th 2009, 07:24 PM
What constitutes a marriage according to scripture?

Who decides then?We could talk about it all day but in the end who decides what constitutes marriage. My point was if two people,Christians want to be married then I believe they should do so according to the laws of the land.

If two gay people want to be married,then I highly question whether they be Christians in which case,this topic has nothing to do with them....

VerticalReality
Apr 25th 2009, 07:43 PM
Who decides then?We could talk about it all day but in the end who decides what constitutes marriage.

I would say God and God alone.



If two gay people want to be married,then I highly question whether they be Christians in which case,this topic has nothing to do with them


Well, they aren't Christians if they are openly practicing homsexuality. However, that wasn't the point. The point is that what the law of the land recognizes really doesn't determine what God recognizes.

karenoka27
Apr 25th 2009, 08:25 PM
I would say God and God alone.



Well, they aren't Christians if they are openly practicing homsexuality. However, that wasn't the point. The point is that what the law of the land recognizes really doesn't determine what God recognizes.

Ok, I understand what you are saying. So what we are trying to come to a conclusion to is What does the Bible say marriage is.....
Well I believe we agree that God has ordained marriage to be one man and one woman. Since this is Bible Chat we should be using Scripture.

Genesis 2:18-"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."
Genesis 2:"And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
In Deuteronomy 24:1 it says-"If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,"

This seems to indicate that there was some formality to being married. A record of sorts?Interesting....

revrobor
Apr 25th 2009, 10:31 PM
Thanks, but I am trying to establish if such things as a wedding ceremony, a 'legal' certificate, a registrar, etc are requirements, before someone could be classed 'in God's eyes' as married.

If a man and a woman, have the blessing of their parents to leave them, and become man and wife, and they live together, but not had a ceremony, or produced some sort of certificate, are they married?

A marriage license is issued in this country only when a couple want to be civilly married (legally for property purposes). There were no civil marriages in the U.S. until the late 19th century when state governments discovered they could make money by charging for those licenses. Prior to that time a couple said vows before a pastor and the info was usually entered in a family Bible. A couple is not required by any state law to be civilly married UNLESS the want the legal protection of that state's laws regarding property rights. Today most pastors act as agents of the state when performing the ceremony. The marriage license plainly says "State of (Whatever)" NOT church of (Whatever). Biblically you will find several verses that say things like "He went in to her and they became husband and wife" leading one to conclude that with family (and God's) approval it is sexual intercourse that makes a chosen couple married. No civil marriage is required Biblically.

bagofseed
Apr 25th 2009, 11:07 PM
Well it might as well be me...

I am sorry but I'm going to state my disagreement with what you are trying to teach here. I do not believe sex equals marriage.

Let me just ask you this question. If my wife was raped by someone does that mean she would be married to them after it happened?

Now if you say "not in this instance", it does not make a blanket statement like you have given very credible.

There is a biblical example of rape and marriage.
There is also an aspect of willingness on both parts to engage in a sexual contract. Any contract forced, accomplished under duress is invalid in my understanding.


That and I have no idea what I would do with all the wives I would have from my life before I believed under your view. I don't need to say the number but it's more than a couple. Did I divorce the first one when I slept with the second or am I married to all of them in your view? What does that mean to my wife now?

Like all sin, repentance, confession and cleansing.
Forgetting what lies behind and pressing on towards what lies ahead.


You don't have to answer these, to me they are rhetorical, but if you keep you view in light of what I asked I'll say it would at least be interesting to see what your answers are.

In Peace,
Joe
Yes I keep my view because it is God's.

Thank you for your honest questions.

bagofseed
Apr 25th 2009, 11:16 PM
Are non Christians ever considered married by God?

But what if they don't follow the religious rules?

What if they don't follow the legal rules?


When God separated man into man and woman and created marriage in the process, by it's nature it precludes same sex union, because it is not a rejoining of the two separate distinct physical aspect of man.

Only in ceremony and law can such be joined, but neither of these will actually accomplish a marriage.

Walstib
Apr 26th 2009, 02:25 AM
There is a biblical example of rape and marriage.

Yes... but it also does not count if the woman is engaged....again not as cut and dry as you state. The earthly and the spiritual have unity but need to be addressed separately.


"If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.(Deu 22:28-29 NASB)
There is also an aspect of willingness on both parts to engage in a sexual contract. Any contract forced, accomplished under duress is invalid in my understanding.

Well I know I went to an extreme but the truth must work on all sides. If a man willingly cheats on his wife, consensual intercourse, is he then married to the woman he cheated with? Does he now have two wives or does he divorce the first?



Like all sin, repentance, confession and cleansing.
Forgetting what lies behind and pressing on towards what lies ahead.

What about people who are not regenerated? You are not addressing divorce or polygamy in your posts. What are your views in regards to this and people who have had multiple partners? Saved and unsaved?

Peace,
Joe

bagofseed
Apr 26th 2009, 05:36 AM
Yes... but it also does not count if the woman is engaged....again not as cut and dry as you state. The earthly and the spiritual have unity but need to be addressed separately.

If the woman is engaged what does the bible say?




Well I know I went to an extreme but the truth must work on all sides. If a man willingly cheats on his wife, consensual intercourse, is he then married to the woman he cheated with?

Yes.


Does he now have two wives or does he divorce the first?

Not sure, clearly one covenant has been broken and another entered into.
There is something special about returning to first loves.
But returning to a divorced wife was not allowed.

My point is only that it's biblical, that sex is how marriage is accomplished.

That the two becoming one flesh is the covenant of marriage.

I understand it is hard to hear for many people, I would rather not be bringing up a painful thing, such as this could be for many people.
The reason I do, is that the truth would help many young people to see sex for the great mystery it is, so they may value it as such.



What about people who are not regenerated? You are not addressing divorce or polygamy in your posts. What are your views in regards to this and people who have had multiple partners? Saved and unsaved?

They all need the Savior, just like me.
[/quote]

Walstib
Apr 26th 2009, 01:11 PM
If the woman is engaged what does the bible say?

It says that for her sex does not equal marriage. The marriage bed can remain undefiled because she was not married to the man who abused her. She did not have to divorce the abuser to be able to marry her fiancé.


Yes.

Can you show me a biblical example of a wife having multiple husbands as your answer allows for?



Not sure, clearly one covenant has been broken and another entered into.
There is something special about returning to first loves.
But returning to a divorced wife was not allowed.

So then cheating it is not adultery because they just gained another wife. I am just surprised you seem not to see the problems with the holistic way you are connecting sex to marriage?



My point is only that it's biblical, that sex is how marriage is accomplished.

That the two becoming one flesh is the covenant of marriage.


The time of consummation can be the moment in time the marriage covenant is established but it does not have to be.

You can become one flesh with someone without making a personal commitment for marriage.

IMPORTANT: Can people with no ability to have intercourse get married?


I understand it is hard to hear for many people, I would rather not be bringing up a painful thing, such as this could be for many people.

The reason I do, is that the truth would help many young people to see sex for the great mystery it is, so they may value it as such.

Look, it's not painful or hard for me, you have not pricked a guilty conscience from my past. Bringing the topic up is good because none of us should feel any need to hold back on saying that intercourse is something not to be taken lightly. Fornication is sinful!

But listen close... if you are married to everyone you have sex with there is no such thing as fornication. Your view belittles this and is dangerous.


They all need the Savior, just like me.

That is not a clear answer considering the seriousness of this topic. I would encourage you to try again, go back a few posts, get clear on the questions that led to this answer and try again. Or at least expound on what you mean by this.

Peace,
Joe

Partaker of Christ
Apr 26th 2009, 03:28 PM
I gave you the minimum requrements for a marriage in 'God's eyes'.
The State thing is advisable to help protect the spouse in case of legal recourse, property disputes, desertion, etc.

Hi again Crossnote:

AFAIK, Here in the UK, if a couple have been 'living' together for six months or longer, then they can be classed as being in a state of marriage.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 26th 2009, 03:46 PM
God created marriage how?
By making the one man into two separate physical beings.
Marriage was created in that process, allowing for a physical rejoining of the flesh.

Or more plainly, sex = marriage.

Clearly the verse about becoming one flesh is about marriage.

But so it the verse about becoming one flesh with a prostitute.
I am not aware of any ceremony or traditions associated in that case.

Sex is just as serious as marriage, and should be looked at that way. because it is marriage.

Hi bagofseed!

If sex equals marriage, the what do we say about the young man at Corinth, who went with his fathers wife?

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 26th 2009, 03:53 PM
I also want to clarify myself here because I don't want anyone to misunderstand.

I'm in FULL SUPPORT of having the wedding ceremony with family and friends. I love the traditions of having a man of God oversee this union that is made before the Lord within the church. I love, love, love it! I don't want anyone to think that I support folks just running out and doing things on their own.

However, the point I'm making here is what exactly joins a man and woman in the sight of the Lord. What "seals the deal", so to speak.

Hi VerticalReality!

Fully agree with you.

Why I ask the said question is, because I fear that some of us, may be in danger of making false accusations. Particularly against some of the brethren.

bagofseed
Apr 26th 2009, 08:47 PM
Hi bagofseed!

If sex equals marriage, the what do we say about the young man at Corinth, who went with his fathers wife?

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
First I say Gross.
Second I still say the same thing God's word does about sex accomplishing marriage.

revrobor
Apr 26th 2009, 09:16 PM
Hi bagofseed!

If sex equals marriage, the what do we say about the young man at Corinth, who went with his fathers wife?

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Sex does not equal marriage. Sexual intercourse between a man and woman ordained by God to be husband and wife seems to be what equals a Biblical marriage. A civil marriage, even when performed by a pastor, does not necessarily equal a Biblical marriage. It is possible for a couple to be Biblically married but not civilly married. A couple is not required by any state to have a civil ceremony UNLESS that couple wants to claim civil protection under that state's laws. They are two different kinds of marriages that are usually combined in the most common church ceremony.

bagofseed
Apr 27th 2009, 05:31 AM
Interesting text from the translators notes from Luke 16:18 from the NETBible

The examples of marriage and divorce show that the ethical standards of the new era are still faithful to promises made in the presence of God. To contribute to the breakup of a marriage, which involved a vow before God, is to commit adultery. This works whether one gets a divorce or marries a person who is divorced, thus finalizing the breakup of the marriage. Jesus’ point concerns the need for fidelity and ethical integrity in the new era.

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