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sheina maidle
Apr 22nd 2009, 09:59 PM
Are the Old Covenant commandments the same as Christ's commandments?

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40)

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34)

billy-brown 2
Apr 22nd 2009, 10:15 PM
Are the Old Covenant commandments the same as Christ's commandments?

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40)

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34)

Yes . . .

(I think . . .)

:)

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 11:31 PM
God doesn't change His standards.

Kahtar
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:05 AM
Many will disagree with what I'm going to say here, but the scripture is clear.
There is a 'law of Christ'. There is also a 'law of faith'. And a 'royal law'.
Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
Romans 3:27 Where boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
As yet, I cannot find anyone here who can clearly define exactly WHAT the law of Christ is from those who say the laws of the old covenant are passed away, beyond 'love your neighbor as yourself', which as you have pointed out is an old covenant law. And truly, if you love your neighbor as yourself, you DO fulfil the law.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [I][even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Since there IS NO OTHER clearly spelled out law, be it the 'law of Christ' or the 'royal law', then what are we to assume? We are clearly told to keep His commandments.
John explained that we should not sin.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Most on here, including those who say we are free from the law, will tell you NOT to sin.
So what is sin? John explained that sin is the breaking, or trangressing of the law.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
To keep from sinning then requires obedience to the law.
And when we do keep His commandments:
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (Christ obeyed the law perfectly. He was without sin)
1 John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

But having said all that, you KNOW someone is going to say 'We're saved by faith, not by works (of the law).' And that is absolutely true.
If salvation were of works of the law, NONE OF US WOULD MAKE IT, because we all have and DO sin (break the law of God). That's why the gift of Christ is of grace, because we don't deserve it.
By faith, we accept the sacrifice Christ paid in our behalf, the penalty of OUR SIN, death in OUR PLACE. And when we accept that, we are saved.
But clearly, from the above scriptures, once we are saved, we are to walk pleasing in His sight, commanded not to sin (which is breaking God's law).
But here's the thing. We don't obey the law of God to earn salvation, because it has already been given us freely by faith. We don't obey in order to earn righteousness. There is nothing we can do to earn anything!
Rather, we obey because the love of God abides in our heart, and in our heart we have the DESIRE to be pleasing to Him, and not disobedient children.
We love our neighbor because that love of God abides in us. And loving our neighbor fulfils the law. And that love is not a mental concept, or a state of mind. IT is the outward action of doing good works (ie obeying the law).
We are saved by faith in Christ, but faith WITHOUT WORKS is dead. If you have no works, you have dead faith. Is dead faith sufficient for salvation?

For those of you who wish to rant and rave against everything I've said, don't bother, I won't respond. I've said what I've said. Period. Like it, fine, don't like it, that's fine too.

crossnote
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:32 AM
Are the Old Covenant commandments the same as Christ's commandments?

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40)

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34)

In a sense the Sermon on the mount (NT) is a tougher standard than the say the 10 commandments (OT). This is because it speaks to the intent and motives of our heart as well as outward observance thus laying bare our sinful condition (yes, even as Christians) and thus continually reminding us of our need of a Savior.
This is why the LAW is important, it keeps driving us to the cross otherwise we become smug in our own righteousness or complacent in our own pet sins.

brakelite
Apr 23rd 2009, 11:27 AM
Khatar had it right. Spot on. We as Christians have a pet saying called the 'golden rule':" Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
This is exactly the same as "love your neighbour as yourself". He added to it by saying, Mt 7:12 'for this is the law and the prophets.' This is the law and the prophets.

So by love, we fulfil every requirement that the law and the prophets would have us to do. By love we have all the bases covered. There is not one commandment neglected if we love God with all our hearts minds and soul, and love our neighbours as ourselves.
And as Khatar quoted, John says that if we are not keeping the commandments, then we are liars if we would dare claim that we are loving God, or even dare to say we know Him.

Love and obedience to the law are one and the same process. One cannot exist without the other. Both are reflections of the character of God. We cannot keep the law without love, and we cannot love without keeping the law. It is love that is placed in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. And it's written there in the same words that were written on the tables of stone and given to Moses. And if we would choose to ignore, remove, or excuse just one law from from the whole, ( For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.), we are by so doing bringing upon ourselves the following censure from Jesus: Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 11:50 AM
Are the Old Covenant commandments the same as Christ's commandments?

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40)

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34)

If they are the same then they could do the same, however the following scripture shows that there is a difference;

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:06 PM
If they are the same then they could do the same, however the following scripture shows that there is a difference;

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
God bless you!
FirstfruitsI have no intention of debating anyone, least of all you, FF. But I really do want to address this, because I have seen it before.
What you appear to be saying here, simply, is that loving your neighbor in the OT is somehow different that loving your neighbor in the NT.
If that is the case, then would you please explain to us all exactly what those differences are?
From where I sit, Rom 8:3 is simply showing that the law is not capable of saving or making one righteous, because our flesh is weak, and we continually stumble, and thus God sent His Son to take the curse of the law, which is death, upon Himself in our place.
I don't see this verse saying that OT law and NT law are any different.
There is a difference though, in some of the law, specifically the priesthood and the sacrifices. But those laws are not 'done away with', but rather changed, as Paul said in Hebrews.
Example: the law of sacrifice remains, but the sacrifice itself has changed, for Christ Himself has become our sacrifice.
The laws regarding the temple remain, but the temple itself has changed, because we now are the temple in which the Holy Spirit dwells.
The laws regarding the priesthood remain, but the priests have changed, because now Christ is our High Priest, and we ourselves are a kingdom of priests, a royal priesthood.
But nowhere do I see a change in 'love your neighbor as yourself'. That is an inward spiritual principle expressed outwardly to our neighbor, regardless of which side of Christ you do it from.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:16 PM
I have no intention of debating anyone, least of all you, FF. But I really do want to address this, because I have seen it before.
What you appear to be saying here, simply, is that loving your neighbor in the OT is somehow different that loving your neighbor in the NT.
If that is the case, then would you please explain to us all exactly what those differences are?
From where I sit, Rom 8:3 is simply showing that the law is not capable of saving or making one righteous, because our flesh is weak, and we continually stumble, and thus God sent His Son to take the curse of the law, which is death, upon Himself in our place.
I don't see this verse saying that OT law and NT law are any different.
There is a difference though, in some of the law, specifically the priesthood and the sacrifices. But those laws are not 'done away with', but rather changed, as Paul said in Hebrews.
Example: the law of sacrifice remains, but the sacrifice itself has changed, for Christ Himself has become our sacrifice.
The laws regarding the temple remain, but the temple itself has changed, because we now are the temple in which the Holy Spirit dwells.
The laws regarding the priesthood remain, but the priests have changed, because now Christ is our High Priest, and we ourselves are a kingdom of priests, a royal priesthood.
But nowhere do I see a change in 'love your neighbor as yourself'. That is an inward spiritual principle expressed outwardly to our neighbor, regardless of which side of Christ you do it from.

I understand what you are saying but remember it is not just loving thy neighbour that is written in the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

crossnote
Apr 24th 2009, 05:47 AM
"Love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself" is LAW. It is a command which we can't keep unless we are enabled by the love of God shed in our hearts by the Holy Spirit; and even at that we keep it imperfectly.
The love God has shed in our hearts is a gift to share with others. We have this gift because Christ Jesus has kept the law of love perfectly in our stead and we receive it as a gift.
IN some of these threads I see our enablement to love turned into a law e.g. "Love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself" and you will fulfill the law. We don't do the law to fulfill the law. We receive His gift of Christ Jesus who is the fulfillment of the law WHO lives His life through us by faith.
Reminder:
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
(Gal 2:20)

slightlypuzzled
Apr 24th 2009, 06:12 AM
Are the Old Covenant commandments the same as Christ's commandments?

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40)

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34)

To comment on your two verses directly; Jesus acknowledges the law in the first and uses His divine authority to give them a new commandment (some have called it an eleventh commandment...but I will not go that far) the main point is Christ's authority to do so here in John.
The verse in Matthew is Jesus' response to a much debated question. Jesus saw, in this instance, the law as a whole and simply said you fulfill it by loving God and your neighbor, and acting accordingly.
Soooooooo, in the first verse the answer is yes, he simply gives a way to view and keep the whole law. In the second verse, the answer is 'no', He was using his authority to give them a new commandment. Incidentally, the context of this commandment, the washing of the disciples feet, illustrated how they were to view His new commandment; a service of love to each other.....

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