PDA

View Full Version : Discussion Laws, Laws, Laws, Why Not All, If We Do Some



manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:04 AM
Disclaimer Statement- I am a christian who lives aspects of the torah. I am not justified, made righteous, or perfected by living as such. I am living on what I believe to be terms set in front of me by a divine law maker who knows best. Some choose to live differently, but not lower than any other, according to the principle of love as defined by the same law giver. To this I say great and God bless. However, I endeavor to share of the goodness and revelations God has placed accross my path.

If Torah related Subjects offend you, please skip this thread as I do not want to be a stumbling block to your faith and walk in our common Lord. Let each one of us walk in the faith as we have so learned to abide in Christ.

Topic:
Laws, Laws, Laws, Why Not God's, If We Follow Our Own

Are international laws, national laws, states laws, city ordinances, home owner associations by laws, church by laws, health code laws, business laws, family code laws, zoning laws, social group laws, and parental rules torahs?

Are we to obey these laws? Why?

I mean torah in the sense of a recorded set of instructions meant to create an environment for mutual and individual prosperity and health to all who agree and follow the guidelines of a guaranteer.

I believe we are commanded to obey them by Scripture in the NT. These were one and the same in the OT.

Most of the penal code laws and ordinances contained in these are derived from within the Biblically founded torah both in principle and context.

All states have laws against murder, so does the Scriptural torah. Are we to respect the state law against murder and at the same time reject the torah based command not to murder. Are we to respect man made torahs and reject the torah of God? Which is the higher law? Of course it is Scriptural torah. Laws we live by that we create from common sense are already recorded, however, we take ownership of them and call them our own most of the time.

I have actually known saints who fear home owner associations and at the same time say that the believer is not to obey any Scriptural based torah.

Where is critical thinking regarding this matter? Why regard man derived torah as legit and binding for order and decency, but hate divine torah that all man made laws are founded and derived from. Mankind is indeed proudful. Ancient Israel did the same thing by creating their own torahs along side of God's divine torah.

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:09 PM
bump?

What say you?

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:19 PM
From the most Orthodox of Orthodox Jews, to the hours old Christian just trying to make sense of it all, each of us will pick and chose what observing the Law means.

If ever there was a full understanding of what it was and how to live it, that knowledge is gone, or lost in the mass of voices trying to explain it.

Teke
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:30 PM
From the most Orthodox of Orthodox Jews, to the hours old Christian just trying to make sense of it all, each of us will pick and chose what observing the Law means.

If ever there was a full understanding of what it was and how to live it, that knowledge is gone, or lost in the mass of voices trying to explain it.

Understanding may be lost to the world, but not to the Apostolic church which Jesus established. He promised as much when He said nothing could prevail against it, meaning it would not be overcome by the world. But it takes the scriptural directive to "hold fast" for it to be accomplished in the church that is still in the world.

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:31 PM
Understanding may be lost to the world, but not to the Apostolic church which Jesus established. He promised as much when He said nothing could prevail against it, meaning it would not be overcome by the world. But it takes the scriptural directive to "hold fast" for it to be accomplished in the church that is still in the world.

The apostolic church picks and chooses just as well as the rest of us.

markedward
Apr 23rd 2009, 04:31 PM
The problem is, nearly every church denomination claims to be descended right from the "apostolic church".

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 04:45 PM
From the most Orthodox of Orthodox Jews, to the hours old Christian just trying to make sense of it all, each of us will pick and chose what observing the Law means.

If ever there was a full understanding of what it was and how to live it, that knowledge is gone, or lost in the mass of voices trying to explain it.

Is your prospective fatalistic? Asking do I want be speaking for you.

I deeply understand your point. But the truth of the matter is that all relationships have this experience. We have to learn how to be married, raise kids, and so and so. It does not mean we try. Learning a person and how to relate to them is apart of the relationship.


So, yes, me being born a gentile, getting saved at twenty puts me at a disadvantage as far knowing and relating to the Yahweh. However, the same has always be true.

We are rewarding from diligently seeking God and asking for wisdom, because God gives it liberally.

So we still have to learn God in regards to what character he has manifested to us, and the Words and Ways of a person speaks volumes.

Teke
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:02 PM
The problem is, nearly every church denomination claims to be descended right from the "apostolic church".

Thing is no one has to buy anyone elses claims. They can go and check for themselves if they really want to find out. Question is, is anyone up for the challenge. The complacent are not. It is something you have to do yourself, no one else can do it for you.


The apostolic church picks and chooses just as well as the rest of us.

HL, I'm not going to publicly debate you on this subject. But your wrong about this. The Apostolic church remains unchanged. To say otherwise is like saying Jesus didn't really establish any church, just a concept or philosophy of church.
Myself, knowing better than that, can not say such.

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:40 PM
HL, I'm not going to publicly debate you on this subject.
Very well, you shall have the last word then.

gophgetter
Apr 24th 2009, 02:54 AM
All states have laws against murder, so does the Scriptural torah. Are we to respect the state law against murder and at the same time reject the torah based command not to murder. Are we to respect man made torahs and reject the torah of God? .

Would you make it a little more clear what you mean by this statement? Are you referring to capital punishment?

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 04:59 AM
Would you make it a little more clear what you mean by this statement? Are you referring to capital punishment?


A lot of the laws that man has legislated already have their origins from the Torah. To not murder is to follow torah which is a higher law. Christians are said to do all things whole hardily as unto the Lord. Hence, we as believers should have more respect for the principles established first by God and not mankind. Mankind's laws are not perfect. For example, mankind's law allows murder, in the form of abortion. God simply says do not murder as in we are never allowed to kill a life other than self defense.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 24th 2009, 05:48 AM
Disclaimer Statement- I am a christian who lives aspects of the torah. I am not justified, made righteous, or perfected by living as such. I am living on what I believe to be terms set in front of me by a divine law maker who knows best. Some choose to live differently, but not lower than any other, according to the principle of love as defined by the same law giver. To this I say great and God bless. However, I endeavor to share of the goodness and revelations God has placed accross my path.

If Torah related Subjects offend you, please skip this thread as I do not want to be a stumbling block to your faith and walk in our common Lord. Let each one of us walk in the faith as we have so learned to abide in Christ.

Topic:
Laws, Laws, Laws, Why Not God's, If We Follow Our Own

Are international laws, national laws, states laws, city ordinances, home owner associations by laws, church by laws, health code laws, business laws, family code laws, zoning laws, social group laws, and parental rules torahs?

Are we to obey these laws? Why?

I mean torah in the sense of a recorded set of instructions meant to create an environment for mutual and individual prosperity and health to all who agree and follow the guidelines of a guaranteer.

I believe we are commanded to obey them by Scripture in the NT. These were one and the same in the OT.

Most of the penal code laws and ordinances contained in these are derived from within the Biblically founded torah both in principle and context.

All states have laws against murder, so does the Scriptural torah. Are we to respect the state law against murder and at the same time reject the torah based command not to murder. Are we to respect man made torahs and reject the torah of God? Which is the higher law? Of course it is Scriptural torah. Laws we live by that we create from common sense are already recorded, however, we take ownership of them and call them our own most of the time.

I have actually known saints who fear home owner associations and at the same time say that the believer is not to obey any Scriptural based torah.

Where is critical thinking regarding this matter? Why regard man derived torah as legit and binding for order and decency, but hate divine torah that all man made laws are founded and derived from. Mankind is indeed proudful. Ancient Israel did the same thing by creating their own torahs along side of God's divine torah.

Let me ask a few questions before I answer. I do not want to get into the same old 'Law vs. Spirit' or 'Law vs. Christ' debate since there has been many threads on that subject.

1. Do you live your life by looking at the 10 commandments and checking off the ones you do not break for that day? I am not belittling you, it just sounds like that is what you are saying...

2. By Torah, do you mean the whole law that Moses and Israel agreed to keep at Mt. Sinai?

2. You made the following statement at the end:

Ancient Israel did the same thing by creating their own torahs along side of God's divine torah
Can you expand your explanation of this statement? Are you saying part of the Law, as it is written in the Books of Moses is man made, it was just added by Israel?

I thank you for your answers, because this will help me answer you in a way that will speak to your OP.....

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 12:42 PM
1. Do you live your life by looking at the 10 commandments and checking off the ones you do not break for that day? I am not belittling you, it just sounds like that is what you are saying...

2. By Torah, do you mean the whole law that Moses and Israel agreed to keep at Mt. Sinai?

Can you expand your explanation of this statement? Are you saying part of the Law, as it is written in the Books of Moses is man made, it was just added by Israel?.....


1.NO, I do not make myself a check list or record the sins I break everyday. I live as most believers do everyday with a few exceptions. In like manner I try to live a sin free, moral, and upright day for the love of God and neighbor. The only way I can know I am doing this is by knowing what sin is and what uprightness is. This is what Torah teaches me, how to act in love with my brother and Lord. It by no means establishes anything else for me, but existing as standard of ordained guidance for choosing the appropriate behavior. What else defines sin and holiness. How does a believer know that they have defrauded their brother unless God's word shows them differently.


2.I refer to anything God expected from people to obey and honor towards Himself and neighbor. I know others throughout history have assigned multiple meanings to this world. Plus the assigned meanings have rather stuck hard. However, the inclusive and simply definition of torah means instructions. It equally and rightfully could be applied to any secular code of laws, just like the word church. The word church was originally a secular word assigned to secular definition until it was borrowed from the Greeks.

RabbiKnife
Apr 24th 2009, 01:08 PM
Being born a Gentile does not put one at a disadvantage to knowing and relating to God.

This is a great fallacy.

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 01:31 PM
Being born a Gentile does not put one at a disadvantage to knowing and relating to God.

This is a great fallacy.


Staying one in heart and mind, when that should have passed away is after one has been born again.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 01:39 PM
1.NO, I do not make myself a check list or record the sins I break everyday. I live as most believers do everyday with a few exceptions. In like manner I try to live a sin free, moral, and upright day for the love of God and neighbor. The only way I can know I am doing this is by knowing what sin is and what uprightness is. This is what Torah teaches me, how to act in love with my brother and Lord. It by no means establishes anything else for me, but existing as standard of ordained guidance for choosing the appropriate behavior. What else defines sin and holiness. How does a believer know that they have defrauded their brother unless God's word shows them differently.


2.I refer to anything God expected from people to obey and honor towards Himself and neighbor. I know others throughout history have assigned multiple meanings to this world. Plus the assigned meanings have rather stuck hard. However, the inclusive and simply definition of torah means instructions. It equally and rightfully could be applied to any secular code of laws, just like the word church. The word church was originally a secular word assigned to secular definition until it was borrowed from the Greeks.

Are you aware that if we cannot obey the whole Torah that God has declared us to be unrighteous, that also included those that may have kept the whole law.

So by trying to do what is right according to the Torah it is already declared that we have failed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 02:01 PM
Are you aware that if we cannot obey the whole Torah that God has declared us to be unrighteous, that also included those that may have kept the whole law.

So by trying to do what is right according to the Torah it is already declared that we have failed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

FF, do you still need God's grace. Why? Because you still sin, and you will continue to at least commit one sin a day until your glorification. Grace is needed to get past that moment in perpectual fellowship with God. It is because the standards that are expected of you by God still stand.

If there was no spelled contract of expected conduct, then you would not need grace to escape any consequences for breeching a covenant. You cannot have a person to person covenant without an agreement of expectations on both sides.

Why is it so hard to understand that the same principles you live by everyday within the secular world are no different than the principles of the Kingdom of God. God commanded us to obey the laws of the nations we live in, but not to regard His commandments.

We still need grace, because we still fall short. How do we know we fall short. Torah shows and teaches us that. If the standard was no longer in place to be accountable to, then we would have no need of grace.

Vhayes
Apr 24th 2009, 02:03 PM
Hi Mani,
If the Law was a tutor, what did you/were you supposed to learn from it?
V

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 02:13 PM
FF, do you still need God's grace. Why? Because you still sin, and you will continue to at least commit one sin a day until your glorification. Grace is needed to get past that moment in perpectual fellowship with God. It is because the standards that are expected of you by God still stand.

If there was no spelled contract of expected conduct, then you would not need grace to escape any consequences for breeching a covenant. You cannot have a person to person covenant without an agreement of expectations on both sides.

Why is it so hard to understand that the same principles you live by everyday within the secular world are no different than the principles of the Kingdom of God. God commanded us to obey the laws of the nations we live in, but not to regard His commandments.

We still need grace, because we still fall short. How do we know we fall short. Torah shows and teaches us that. If the standard was no longer in place to be accountable to, then we would have no need of grace.

According to the following grace and truth is not through the law but through Christ.

Jn 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jn 1:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

If we follow the law we are therefore not following Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 02:15 PM
Hi Mani,
If the Law was a tutor, what did you/were you supposed to learn from it?
V

What sin is? How not to sin? What love is? How to love?

By definition a tutor is to teach and train.

The Holy Spirit's school book we are taught from.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 02:24 PM
What sin is? How not to sin? What love is? How to love?

By definition a tutor is to teach and train.

The Holy Spirit's school book we are taught from.

Is the love according to the law the same as the love according to Christ?

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 02:38 PM
Is the love according to the law the same as the love according to Christ?

Firstfruits

How did Christ show he loved the Father and His neighbor?

By means of kinsmen redeemer, torah.

We do indeed follow Christ, by picking up our own cross, denying ourselves, and following Him in manner of conduct as a man. Not the divine side, but the human side. We forget that he was also a man. He kept the law not as God, but as man, and this makes a difference. It means that a man did keep the law without sin perfectly. Now in our covenant with him, we are granted the privelege of the covenant that comes with the adoption into a new family. It does not excuse us from not acting like family.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 02:47 PM
How did Christ show he loved the Father and His neighbor?

By means of kinsmen redeemer, torah.

We do indeed follow Christ, by picking up our own cross, denying ourselves, and following Him in manner of conduct as a man. Not the divine side, but the human side. We forget that he was also a man. He kept the law not as God, but as man, and this makes a difference. It means that a man did keep the law without sin perfectly. Now in our covenant with him, we are granted the privelege of the covenant that comes with the adoption into a new family. It does not excuse us from not acting like family.

It is true that Jesus 'kept' the law, but Jesus died and according to the law he is free from the law and we in Christ are therefore also free from the law by his death, unless his death meant nothing.

I asked if there was a difference between the love commanded by the law and the love commanded by Christ, what is you answer?

God bless you!

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 02:54 PM
It is true that Jesus 'kept' the law, but Jesus died and according to the law he is free from the law and we in Christ are therefore also free from the law by his death, unless his death meant nothing.

I asked if there was a difference between the love commanded by the law and the love commanded by Christ, what is you answer?

God bless you!

no..................................

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 03:05 PM
no..................................

Why do you say no, what scriptures do you have to confirm your answer?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Apr 24th 2009, 04:44 PM
What sin is? How not to sin? What love is? How to love?

By definition a tutor is to teach and train.

The Holy Spirit's school book we are taught from.
When you get up each day and go about your work, do you take the textbook from our training (Police Officer) with you or have you learned the principles from the text book and utilize those principles in a practical manner?

RabbiKnife
Apr 24th 2009, 04:52 PM
When you get up each day and go about your work, do you take the textbook from our training (Police Officer) with you or have you learned the principles from the text book and utilize those principles in a practical manner?

That's a start, but the analogy fails.

The textbook says: Don't hurt others.

Your training, and your commander, says: Don't hurt others is not enough. Help others. If you help others, you will never have to worry about hurting others.

The new commandment is far weightier than the old.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 24th 2009, 05:01 PM
1.NO, I do not make myself a check list or record the sins I break everyday. I live as most believers do everyday with a few exceptions. In like manner I try to live a sin free, moral, and upright day for the love of God and neighbor. The only way I can know I am doing this is by knowing what sin is and what uprightness is. This is what Torah teaches me, how to act in love with my brother and Lord. It by no means establishes anything else for me, but existing as standard of ordained guidance for choosing the appropriate behavior. What else defines sin and holiness. How does a believer know that they have defrauded their brother unless God's word shows them differently.


2.I refer to anything God expected from people to obey and honor towards Himself and neighbor. I know others throughout history have assigned multiple meanings to this world. Plus the assigned meanings have rather stuck hard. However, the inclusive and simply definition of torah means instructions. It equally and rightfully could be applied to any secular code of laws, just like the word church. The word church was originally a secular word assigned to secular definition until it was borrowed from the Greeks.

Okay, thank you; that clears it some for me...please forgive my thickheadedness.
You use the word to include any law, secular or 'religious' then?
To me, the point is to see what, in the Biblical witness, God is 'getting at' when He makes covenants with man. I mean, God chose Abraham to recieve a promise, and then He tested Abraham's faith with Isaac, the child of promise......It is God's specific want or direction that I would think of as primary, with the man made laws as just what the world wants me to conform to, it's image it wants me to reflect.

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 08:37 PM
The point I am trying to get at is that we are commanded to obey those that rule over us and the laws of the land, but then taught to reject the laws of the ultimate law giver. Why do respect lower laws such as national laws, city ordinances, home owner associations, health code laws, and family laws. Does not GRACE make up for these as well. Is Grace only powerful enough to blot God's instructions to mankind. Are we free to claim them as our own such as our laws not to murder or bear false witness in court.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 24th 2009, 08:43 PM
How did Christ show he loved the Father and His neighbor?

By means of kinsmen redeemer, torah.

We do indeed follow Christ, by picking up our own cross, denying ourselves, and following Him in manner of conduct as a man. Not the divine side, but the human side. We forget that he was also a man. He kept the law not as God, but as man, and this makes a difference. It means that a man did keep the law without sin perfectly. Now in our covenant with him, we are granted the privelege of the covenant that comes with the adoption into a new family. It does not excuse us from not acting like family.

Okay...I do not understand the point of redemption by Kinsmen redeemer as you apply it to Jesus Christ. The main symbol used of Christ is the sacrificial lamb, John called Jesus, 'The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.'
Matthew has Jesus speak of Jesus body and blood given for our sins and for a new covenant.
Jesus says, in John, that unless one eats of His body and drinks of His blood, you can have no part of Christ.....at least, that is how I see the scriptures. Do you have a NT scripture that would elucidate your point?

Now, are you saying that Jesus came to keep the law perfectly, and that his example shows us that we must do that? I agree he was a man....Paul points out in Philippians that Jesus gave up Divinity to take on a servant's body, and to die on the cross so that He could redeem us.

The NT records this about Jesus coming:
1 He came to preach to the villages and people..(Mark 1:38)
2. He came to live in the flesh so He could be our perfect High Priest..(Heb. 2:17-18)
3. He came to die...and be raised us (Matt. Matt. 16:21)

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 08:57 PM
Okay...I do not understand the point of redemption by Kinsmen redeemer as you apply it to Jesus Christ. The main symbol used of Christ is the sacrificial lamb, John called Jesus, 'The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.'
Matthew has Jesus speak of Jesus body and blood given for our sins and for a new covenant.
Jesus says, in John, that unless one eats of His body and drinks of His blood, you can have no part of Christ.....at least, that is how I see the scriptures. Do you have a NT scripture that would elucidate your point?

Now, are you saying that Jesus came to keep the law perfectly, and that his example shows us that we must do that? I agree he was a man....Paul points out in Philippians that Jesus gave up Divinity to take on a servant's body, and to die on the cross so that He could redeem us.

The NT records this about Jesus coming:
1 He came to preach to the villages and people..(Mark 1:38)
2. He came to live in the flesh so He could be our perfect High Priest..(Heb. 2:17-18)
3. He came to die...and be raised us (Matt. Matt. 16:21)

It is here where a lack of understanding torah or love for the knowledge of torah hurts some believers.

Jesus fulfilled multiple things with his sacrifices. I say sacrifices because he was the lamb slain before the foundations of the world. Hence, calvary was middle manifestation of what God had and was doing to redeem mankind. Our willingness to follow him by our own living sacrifice is the finality.

Jesus was our passover lamb as well as the rest of the offerings. It took more than the sin offering to appease God. Jesus had to be our burnt offering, meat offering, peace offering, scape goat offering, trespass offering, and first fruit offering as well. It is our lack of comprehension of these things that make us miss so much more about the person and work of Jesus. The Renewed Covenant is replete with Scripture in reference to these offerings. Paul himself even calls himself a drink offering. However, most saints could not even tell you what a drink offering is in addition to explaining its application in our personal lives towards God and others. Hence, how can we follow the example of Paul who was a drink offering for others, if we do not understand how Paul lived as a drink offering.

Jesus satisfied the terms of obediance by his flesh not his divinity. What the physical man Adam lost, Jesus the physical man regained and took those who believed in Him with Him by the principles of kinsmen redeeming. The story of Ruth..............was given so we could learned this principle in application and it is also a law of torah.

Your Advert here


Hosted by Webnet77