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markedward
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:32 AM
I post this here simply to gather others' perspectives on a particular question I have. While I have my own belief on this subject, I'll have to keep it disclosed (per forum rules), so please don't ask. But I sincerely appreciate your answers.

Now.

Matthew 5.17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Christ said the Law would not pass away "until heaven and earth [had] pass[ed] away". Christ also said that "whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same" would be "the least in the kingdom of heaven". Not that the Law brings salvation, but it seems like Christ is clearly teaching here that those who "do" and "teach" the "commandments" of the Law are more righteous (his own word) than those who do not and teach not.

Most, if not all, of you believe that "heaven and earth" have not passed away. So, how do you interpret Christ's statement that "not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law" "until heaven and earth pass away"? Is the Law still "in effect"? Should we "do" and "teach" the "commandments" of the Law in order to please God? Do we leave any commandments out when we "do" and "teach" them? What about those commandments mandating sacrifices and sin-offerings? If we do leave such commandments out, wouldn't that be contradicting the "not an iota, not a dot" clause Christ has in here?

I'll try to ask more questions in the thread, but again, I'm not allowed to divulge my own beliefs on this matter, so I ask that you please do not ask. Thanks.

quiet dove
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:56 AM
Because the Law is still in effect,

Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

As 5:13 says, before God gave the law, He did not hold people accountable for having broken it.

After the law was given, men were then held accountable to it.

Men(Women :)), who are not in Christ Jesus are going to be held accountable to the Law and to God's righteous judgment of any law broken.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

We know we are separated from God because of the sinful nature within us and we know, because of the law, what is required by our Just and Holy Creator. And we know that we are not able to keep His just Law. But the only way to not be held accountable is through Jesus who fulfilled the Law, but the Law is still applied to those who refuse Christ Jesus, they will be held accountable.

And we know what that means:

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

We can't follow the Law righteously because we have a sinful nature and are separated from God, unless we are in Christ Jesus (I know you know that) But the Law will condemn those who thought they could be righteous and do something about their separation from God and that they could do something about that sinful nature with in them. A man simply cannot "fix" that sinful nature and the separation from God that is outside of Jesus.
But the Law is still there but those of us who are covered by Jesus atoning blood will not be held accountable to it.

Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Thats how I look at it and I hope I expressed what I am trying to say.

Searcher1
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:57 AM
"not an iota, not a dot, of the law passed away. It is perfection in Christ.

markedward
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:17 AM
But the Law is still there but those of us who are covered by Jesus atoning blood will not be held accountable to it.Okay. So we're not accountable to following the Law in order to attain salvation. Salvation is only by grace from Christ. We agree on that.

But what about Christ's statement, "whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven"?

Should we be teaching people to follow the Law or not? I'm not saying we would be teaching that the Law brings salvation (again, we've established already that only faith in Christ brings salvation), but if the Law is still in effect, and we teach people to not follow the Law, won't that mean we will "be called the least"? If the Law is still in effect, should we follow Christ's words and teach people to follow it?

dworthington
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:39 AM
What law are you concerned about? Mosiac law? The Ten Commandments?

the rookie
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:32 PM
Okay. So we're not accountable to following the Law in order to attain salvation. Salvation is only by grace from Christ. We agree on that.

But what about Christ's statement, "whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven"?

Should we be teaching people to follow the Law or not? I'm not saying we would be teaching that the Law brings salvation (again, we've established already that only faith in Christ brings salvation), but if the Law is still in effect, and we teach people to not follow the Law, won't that mean we will "be called the least"? If the Law is still in effect, should we follow Christ's words and teach people to follow it?

That statement specifically applies to the Sermon on the Mount and the manner in which Jesus established the framework for what "pursuing God" and a righteous lifestyle (as Art Katz would call it, "authentically Hebraic") looks like. We should be teaching one another to cultivate the heart attitudes of Matthew 5:1-12 that bring "blessing"; we should be teaching one another to value the commandments of the Lord and pursue the heart of psalmist who, in Psalm 119, repeatedly professed that he "loved the law" (5:13-20); we should be teaching one another "how not to live", or avoiding certain behaviors and choices that the ten commandments initially highlighted and Jesus explained in terms of how those behaviors impact the heart (5:21-47).

We should be teaching one another "how to live", or pursuing certain behaviors that help the heart attitudes "blossom" such as giving, praying, forgiving, fasting (6:1-18); we should be teaching one another to have the right perspective, or a "good eye" that is filled with zeal for eternity rather than the things of this life with no fear or worry regarding possessions (6:19-32).

We should be teaching one another "how to walk out our pursuit of God", or pursuing wisdom in relational dynamics that naturally follow the previous choices - building our lives on the "rock" of the wisdom we receive from Jesus and His word (and the law) by which we are prepared for the storms of life, judgment, and His judgment (7:1-27).

I purposefully skipped over two key statements from the Sermon on the Mount that seem to contextualize both the passage and the law itself as it relates to the believer - which seems to be the crux of your question. On its face, I agree with QD: the law is relevant as long as the unbeliever refuses to submit to the leadership of God; thus the law condemns. As such, it is a "schoolmaster" teaching us why we need a Savior. But the two statements that Jesus makes that are interesting are found in chapters 5 and 6, the first being: "Be perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect"; the second is "Seek first the kingdom and His righteusness, and all these things shall be added to you". It seems to me as if we are a bit too "Protestant" in our approach to these commands, and thus we spiritualize them as part of our salvation experience related to what is imputed by Christ. I see righteousness as imputed and imparted, in that it is something we receive and something we pursue.

Thus the law provides the framework, definitions, and insight into God's value system that we can glean from (it is "written on our heart" in the New Covenant, after all) to truly "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" as God "works in us (empowers us) to will (want to do the works of the law) and to do (obedience and righteousness) according to His good pleasure." Are we "bound" to it? Do we have to eschew clothing of mixed fiber and bury our waste outside in our yard? No. But it does provide critical insight into God's heart, what He cares about, and why in terms of defining initially what it means to obey, love, serve, etc. Thus I think we are still called to "love" the law and find God and wisdom in its passages. Then we are called to apply it in lifestyle in the manner that Jesus did in the Sermon on the Mount in particular and the epistles specifically.

In terms of the really controversial statement, "be perfect", I find that Jesus established the "bar" or the "goal" of our pursuit. We are to seek to obey and love God 100% of the time, in other words. Can we do this? No. Can we ever do this? No. (We can grow by grace in "getting better" at it, though) But if we then decide to lower the bar to be theologically correct, and we decide that it is more realistic to obey God 80% of the time, then we have changed His standard and target related to our pursuit of a righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees, who overlooked all manner of commands (and minimized others), emphasizing for the people what they as the leaders could do well to establish their authority. Jesus was saying, in essence, that the whole of the law matters - and I believe still matters today. In the "New Covenant" sense, of course.

MarleVVLL
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:51 PM
Great read, rookie. So, to sum it up, no - we are not required to obey and teach the Law given to Moses?

However, we are to obey ... ah, His commands? "If you love me, you will obey My commands". However, Jesus is God and that means that He was also in the process of giving the Law to Moses...

the rookie
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:05 PM
Great read, rookie. So, to sum it up, no - we are not required to obey and teach the Law given to Moses?

However, we are to obey ... ah, His commands? "If you love me, you will obey My commands". However, Jesus is God and that means that He was also in the process of giving the Law to Moses...

No one can understand the commands of Jesus apart from knowing the law. He was the Lawgiver, as you stated. I think that we are required to read and understand the law - gaining wisdom and understanding from the Holy Spirit as we do regarding who God is and what He cares about - as a means of contextualizing what is "written on our hearts" and assimilating the commands of Jesus and the wisdom of the apostles. So teaching the law given to Moses is profitable and helpful in light of having a clue what "immorality" means, for example, so that we can pursue purity. It still matters today that we don't murder, etc. What is immorality and murder apart from the law?

MarleVVLL
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:11 PM
True.

I suppose a quick answer resides in Acts 15 then?

the rookie
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:14 PM
True.

I suppose a quick answer resides in Acts 15 then?

I happen to think that there is no such thing as a "quick answer". :lol:

MarleVVLL
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:19 PM
Excuse my hasty typing fingers - but nonetheless, I would assume Acts 15 gives a clear and concise anwser to this question. Is it the final answer? No - hense the process of santification and the prinicipal of 2 cor 3:18, but it gives a 'what' to the delima but also the 'why'.

My .02

markedward
Apr 23rd 2009, 04:20 PM
Thanks for the responses.

quiet dove
Apr 24th 2009, 03:48 AM
Okay. So we're not accountable to following the Law in order to attain salvation. Salvation is only by grace from Christ. We agree on that.

But what about Christ's statement, "whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven"?

Should we be teaching people to follow the Law or not? I'm not saying we would be teaching that the Law brings salvation (again, we've established already that only faith in Christ brings salvation), but if the Law is still in effect, and we teach people to not follow the Law, won't that mean we will "be called the least"? If the Law is still in effect, should we follow Christ's words and teach people to follow it?

I think also that Jesus summed up the Law in "love your neighbor as yourself", the law, for lack of knowing how to put my thoughts here, explained sin to men and thus making sin "visible" to the sinner, we then could more understand we, in fact, are sinners and separated from God because of our sinful nature.

With the "love your neighbor as yourself" and then v20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

The idea is to practice what you preach and it must come from the heart, it must be true, and true faith. Thus our lives, and how we live them, either glorify God or they don't. In other words, if I go around spouting off about being a Christian and following Jesus and then rip you off, or cheat you, or other wise prove myself to be less that honorable, then what have I taught you about Jesus?

And even back in the OT, just simply going through the motions of "following the Law" was not really enough if the heart was full of deceit. It has always been about the heart, and faith, believing God.

We know that Jesus fulfilled the Law and the New Covenant is in effect, that we are freed from the Law through Jesus, so to me, we need to take that into the context of determining what Jesus was saying here. And we know from the rest of the NT, Paul's writing and here and there that we are free and have liberty, the rest of the entire NT does not teach that we must follow the law. I think, as with much of Jesus teaching and parables, we need to gain the moral of the story, so to speak, and here the moral is, we need to be honest, from the heart, practice what we preach, "be real" and glorify God and Jesus Christ and thus teach and show others that Life is in Jesus Christ.

Vhayes
Apr 24th 2009, 03:55 AM
Okay. So we're not accountable to following the Law in order to attain salvation. Salvation is only by grace from Christ. We agree on that.

But what about Christ's statement, "whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven"?

Should we be teaching people to follow the Law or not? I'm not saying we would be teaching that the Law brings salvation (again, we've established already that only faith in Christ brings salvation), but if the Law is still in effect, and we teach people to not follow the Law, won't that mean we will "be called the least"? If the Law is still in effect, should we follow Christ's words and teach people to follow it?
Galatians 3
19 - Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

bagofseed
Apr 24th 2009, 03:59 AM
Great read, rookie. So, to sum it up, no - we are not required to obey and teach the Law given to Moses?

However, we are to obey ... ah, His commands? "If you love me, you will obey My commands". However, Jesus is God and that means that He was also in the process of giving the Law to Moses...
Whos commandments?
The Fathers commandments.
Or Jesus commandments.

MarleVVLL
Apr 24th 2009, 05:10 AM
Whos commandments?
The Fathers commandments.
Or Jesus commandments.

There is no difference. They are the same thing.

There is only One God. Jesus is the LORD (Roman 10:11, Heb 1:10, etc etc).

Yeah, there are three persons, but don't think of them as complete separates, as they aren't. :)

forum lurker
Apr 24th 2009, 09:45 AM
Galatians 3
19 - Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

This speaks about the promise Paul is talking about if you put it in context, which is Jesus. The law's purpose until Christ's arrival was to show man his transgressions, now it is Christ who shows us that. The law is in effect, but not to show us transgressions anymore. We don't follow the law for our own sake, we follow it for Jesus.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Fulfilling the law ≠ destroying the law:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5)

15If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14)


The law exists, but must be followed through Jesus.


I hope I'm not repeating what has already been said.

Vhayes
Apr 24th 2009, 12:26 PM
Fulfilling the law ≠ destroying the law:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5)

Has a jot or a tittle passed from the Law?

If you fulfill your mortgage agreement with the bank, do you still give them money each month?

forum lurker
Apr 24th 2009, 04:41 PM
Has a jot or a tittle passed from the Law?

Nope, neither have heaven and earth.


If you fulfill your mortgage agreement with the bank, do you still give them money each month?

If the bank gave the mortgage when I had nothing to show that I could pay them ever back, and kept the door open even when I violated the terms of the agreement, I certainly would be grateful for the said bank.

Perhaps I would give that bank money even without being promised to be rewarded for that later.

Vhayes
Apr 24th 2009, 04:51 PM
Ah - so you still sacrifice and you don't trim your beard. Cool! ;)

forum lurker
Apr 24th 2009, 05:10 PM
Ah - so you still sacrifice and you don't trim your beard. Cool! ;)

Why would the laws regarding sacrifice having been transformed to Jesus make every other law void?

I actually don't trim my beard as I keep shaving, thanks for asking. :P

bagofseed
Apr 25th 2009, 02:23 AM
This speaks about the promise Paul is talking about if you put it in context, which is Jesus. The law's purpose until Christ's arrival was to show man his transgressions, now it is Christ who shows us that. The law is in effect, but not to show us transgressions anymore. We don't follow the law for our own sake, we follow it for Jesus.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Fulfilling the law ≠ destroying the law:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5)

15If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14)


The law exists, but must be followed through Jesus.


I hope I'm not repeating what has already been said.

Gal (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Gal&chapter=2#19) 2:19 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=2&verse=19)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God.

bagofseed
Apr 25th 2009, 02:24 AM
Rom (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=7#4) 7:4 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=7&verse=4)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
So, my brothers and sisters, 1 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=law%20dead&mode=&scope=#) you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. 2 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=law%20dead&mode=&scope=#)

bagofseed
Apr 25th 2009, 02:35 AM
Rom (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=7#6) 7:6 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=7&verse=6)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
But now we have been released from the law, because we have died 1 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=law%20dead&mode=&scope=#) to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code. 2 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=law%20dead&mode=&scope=#)

forum lurker
Apr 25th 2009, 11:56 AM
Gal (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Gal&chapter=2#19) 2:19 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=2&verse=19)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God.


Rom (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=7#4) 7:4 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=7&verse=4)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
So, my brothers and sisters, 1 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=law%20dead&mode=&scope=#) you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. 2 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=law%20dead&mode=&scope=#)


Rom (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=7#6) 7:6 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=7&verse=6)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
But now we have been released from the law, because we have died 1 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=law%20dead&mode=&scope=#) to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code. 2 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=law%20dead&mode=&scope=#)

bagofseed, have you really thought about why there seems to be a contradiction to what Peter taught with these verses and are you interested to find out if there's a way to solve that contradiction?

13Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. 14As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&version=31#fen-NIV-30375a)] (1 Peter 1)


If you are, you can start by reading the beginning of Paul's letter to Galatians:

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Apparently somebody has been teaching Galatians something other than believing in Jesus. By reading further, it becames obvious what that is - doing works of law for salvation.

This is why Paul is diminishing the value of the law so much. It is worthless without having faith in Jesus. However, what Paul doesn't teach is that it's worthless after finding faith in Jesus.

Reading 1 Peter, it's obvious that the circumstances are different. Peter's letter addresses people who aren't about to give up their faith in Jesus.

Paul's beef with the law is that it can be a burden in following Jesus. That doesn't mean it's inherently evil:

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. (Romans 7:7)

--

Let's see how this could be thought in terms of logic:

1. The law shows man his sinfulness.

2. Jesus is needed.

3. Jesus tells those who love him to follow his commandments, which is the law. (John 14:15)

The problem with Galatians wasn't point #3, it was #1. They thought they could earn salvation by following the law.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5)

You can ignore the law, and be saved. You can even teach that to others, be saved, and be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Why you would want that, I don't know. Personally I've given up eating pork and a couple of bad habits, and I really don't think that's much.

Eben
Apr 25th 2009, 12:19 PM
This was Jesus speaking while He was still on earth before He was crucified. He could not tell them that there was a change in dispensation coming. Therefore we have the apostle Paul saying in Ephesians:
ph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles, pray to God.
Eph 3:2 Surely you have heard that God in his grace has given me this work to do for your good.
Eph 3:3 God revealed his secret plan and made it known to me. (I have written briefly about this,
Eph 3:4 and if you will read what I have written, you can learn about my understanding of the secret of Christ.)
Eph 3:5 In past times human beings were not told this secret, but God has revealed it now by the Spirit to his holy apostles and prophets.
Eph 3:6 The secret is that by means of the gospel the Gentiles have a part with the Jews in God's blessings; they are members of the same body and share in the promise that God made through Christ Jesus.
Paul is preaching a new Gospel where everything has been fullfilled by Christ through His crucification.

In Christ

Vhayes
Apr 25th 2009, 03:02 PM
Why would the laws regarding sacrifice having been transformed to Jesus make every other law void?

I actually don't trim my beard as I keep shaving, thanks for asking. :P
Because the sacrificial Laws were MORE than just a jot or tittle and they DID change.

forum lurker
Apr 25th 2009, 03:51 PM
Because the sacrificial Laws were MORE than just a jot or tittle and they DID change.

That's true, and not against what Jesus said. Jesus replaced the old sacrifical system. He didn't destroy it, Jesus is still needed as a sacrifice today. Thus no jot or tittle passed from the law.

Which begs a question: Did Jesus fulfill also every other previous law? Correct me if this isn't what you're suggesting.

Are the laws regarding murdering, stealing or adultery now fulfilled?

If so, what's stopping us? How does one choose which laws to follow?

Vhayes
Apr 25th 2009, 04:30 PM
In my opinion, yes - they have all been fulfilled.

If you have the Holy Spirit residing within, you will not murder - not because it is "against" the Law but because you love your brother. If you have the Holy Spirit within, you will not covet what your neighbor has, you will rejoice with him because you love him. If you have the Holy Spirit, you will love the Lord your God above all else - including family, profession, community standing and ALL else.

It really was called a New covenant for a reason - it's a new not the old remade into something sorta new. ;)
V

Searcher1
Apr 25th 2009, 05:32 PM
A big Amen to that!

Jhn 15:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=15&v=12&t=KJV#12)This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

MarleVVLL
Apr 25th 2009, 05:49 PM
In my opinion, yes - they have all been fulfilled.

If you have the Holy Spirit residing within, you will not murder - not because it is "against" the Law but because you love your brother. If you have the Holy Spirit within, you will not covet what your neighbor has, you will rejoice with him because you love him. If you have the Holy Spirit, you will love the Lord your God above all else - including family, profession, community standing and ALL else.

It really was called a New covenant for a reason - it's a new not the old remade into something sorta new. ;)
V

Just because you have the Holy Spirit in you does not automatically mean you will not sin or that you will not murder, covet, hurt another etc etc.

Peter clearly had the Holy Spirit but yet he showed partiality towards the Jews, hense Paul's rebuke in Galations.

forum lurker
Apr 25th 2009, 05:52 PM
In my opinion, yes - they have all been fulfilled.

If you have the Holy Spirit residing within, you will not murder - not because it is "against" the Law but because you love your brother. If you have the Holy Spirit within, you will not covet what your neighbor has, you will rejoice with him because you love him. If you have the Holy Spirit, you will love the Lord your God above all else - including family, profession, community standing and ALL else.

It really was called a New covenant for a reason - it's a new not the old remade into something sorta new. ;)
V

To say that everything has been fulfilled isn't quite accurate in my opinion. To me life in Christ is a process that goes on every day - you can't only look in the past and sit back comfortably. At least I can't. Maybe this is what you meant.

I'm not unfamiliar with the teaching of the Holy Spirit, i'm quite sure it was due to the Spirit I gave up eating pork and my bad habits. Maybe all of us needs a lesson or two from the Spirit to see our shortcomings.

I however don't think that we aren't capable of learning on our own too. What I learned was according to the Mosaic Law, and I can try to respect it without violating it and seeing how it goes.

So if what the Spirit teaches is according to the law, what's the difference in learning from the Spirit or learning from a book if the law is the same?

forum lurker
Apr 25th 2009, 05:54 PM
A big Amen to that!

Jhn 15:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=15&v=12&t=KJV#12)This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you (John 15)

There is more than one.

Searcher1
Apr 25th 2009, 06:13 PM
Right. For example all of Matthew chapters 5, 6 and 7 are full of commands given by the Lord.

God bless

forum lurker
Apr 25th 2009, 06:21 PM
Alright, maybe not a very good example. But if what you're saying is true, then what Peter says is pointless.

Searcher1
Apr 25th 2009, 06:34 PM
Alright, maybe not a very good example. But if what you're saying is true, then what Peter says is pointless.


Was this in response to my last post?

If so how does what Jesus commands of us in Matthew 5,6,7 (for example each time He say "But I say to you") make what Peter says pointless?

Vhayes
Apr 25th 2009, 06:42 PM
Just because you have the Holy Spirit in you does not automatically mean you will not sin or that you will not murder, covet, hurt another etc etc.

Peter clearly had the Holy Spirit but yet he showed partiality towards the Jews, hense Paul's rebuke in Galations.
Did I say those who are inswelled by the Holy Spirit will not sin? No - of COURSE we sin. We are not yet perfected. But to think we can become righteous by an outward observance of something is not what the fruit of the Spirit is about. Otherwise it would be called the Fruit of the Law.

If someone feels they are honoring God and are learning things about Jesus by not eating pork, great. I just don't think my eating a BLT compromises how God feels about me.

Hope that helps explain my position a bit better.
V

forum lurker
Apr 25th 2009, 06:50 PM
Was this in response to my last post?

If so how does what Jesus commands of us in Matthew 5,6,7 (for example each time He say "But I say to you") make what Peter says pointless?

Maybe I misinterpreted you, but I assumed from your first post to VHayes that you think the command of loving the Lord and others is the only thing that is important, and while I'd agree it's the most important command I don't think what Peter says can be disregarded. Sorry if I misread you.

Searcher1
Apr 25th 2009, 07:09 PM
Maybe I should make myself clearer as to what I meant about Matt 5, 6, and 7.

Everytime Jesus says, "You have heard" He is speaking of keeping the letter of the law, but Jesus ups the anti saying "But I say to you" showing us there is more to it than just the letter of the Law. We must keep the Spirit of the Law. e.g., thou shalt not murder. Jesus says but if you are angry enough to murder then it is the same sin. Or do not commit adultery. But if you are thinking it then it is the same as doing it. Jesus is commanding that we keep the Spirit of the Law.

He is commanding us about how we should conduct ourselves, in actions, and in thought also, so that we might walk in goodness and keep ourselves from evil ways. But still He is not talking about salvation in this. Salvation comes only through believing in Him.

He is not doing away with the Law, He is fulfilling it. If we walk in His ways then we are keeping His commands.

MarleVVLL
Apr 25th 2009, 08:57 PM
Did I say those who are inswelled by the Holy Spirit will not sin? No - of COURSE we sin. We are not yet perfected. But to think we can become righteous by an outward observance of something is not what the fruit of the Spirit is about. Otherwise it would be called the Fruit of the Law.

If someone feels they are honoring God and are learning things about Jesus by not eating pork, great. I just don't think my eating a BLT compromises how God feels about me.

Hope that helps explain my position a bit better.
V

Oh, I see your point.

Wonderful :)

bagofseed
Apr 25th 2009, 10:51 PM
May God open our eyes and show us how to best love each other.


bagofseed, have you really thought about why there seems to be a contradiction to what Peter taught with these verses and are you interested to find out if there's a way to solve that contradiction?

I see no contradiction. If I did I would most assuredly be standing upon some wrong foundations (presuppositions)


13Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. 14As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&version=31#fen-NIV-30375a)] (1 Peter
AMEN!
I get into trouble often teaching holiness.


If you are, you can start by reading the beginning of Paul's letter to Galatians:

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Amen! No other gospel. No other way to be saved (redeemed,sanctified,glorified) but through the work of God himself.


Apparently somebody has been teaching Galatians something other than believing in Jesus. By reading further, it becames obvious what that is - doing works of law for salvation.

Yes, clearly the OT law is not able to change anything about who a man is.


This is why Paul is diminishing the value of the law so much. It is worthless without having faith in Jesus. However, what Paul doesn't teach is that it's worthless after finding faith in Jesus.

Yes he does, He is teaching that the law is worthless to save, teaching it to all these people who have found faith in Jesus.

Having begun in grace will you now be completed in the law?

The law is just a shadow, but we have Christ, the real thing.

What are we saying to Jesus when we return to the shadow for our change, for our sanctification?

Sanctification is also salvation.

Can the law sanctify you (save you)?

Are you willing to give up you faith in Jesus Holy Spirit to save you, to transform you and present you perfect and holy?


Reading 1 Peter, it's obvious that the circumstances are different. Peter's letter addresses people who aren't about to give up their faith in Jesus.

Paul's beef with the law is that it can be a burden in following Jesus. That doesn't mean it's inherently evil:

The law is Good, is exposes sin and makes it more sinful, it brings about the wrath of God against evil men, it brings a sentence of death to all evil men, to all men.
All of these are lawful uses of the law.
An unlawful use of the law is to expect it to save (redeem sanctify or glorify) anyone. The OT law is unfit for righteous men, meant only for the sinners and the ungodly. Why, because it is a judge of the fleshly man.



7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. (Romans 7:7)

Yes praise God for His law which condemned me and caused me to see Him as a savior.



Let's see how this could be thought in terms of logic:

1. The law shows man his sinfulness.

2. Jesus is needed.

Sweet truth.


3. Jesus tells those who love him to follow his commandments, which is the law. (John 14:15)




19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5)

So I now teach you how to keep them. Not through the standard written on stone which says do not murder but rather through the greater standard of Love which says do not be angry with your brother or you will be held guilty of murder.

God in us, the Holy Spirit of life raining in us, love Himself working through us, all through faith alone, a faith perfected by the works of faith.
This always was and is the only way to keep the way of God.


You can ignore the law, and be saved. You can even teach that to others, be saved, and be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Which law, law is a simplified translation it may mean the law of Moses, the Torah, the Tanakh, the universal law of God that always was and is.
The law of liberty, The law of Christ, law of the mind, royal law, law of sin and death, law unto our selves.


Why you would want that, I don't know. Personally I've given up eating pork and a couple of bad habits, and I really don't think that's much.

If you submit your self to the law at any point you must keep it all.

1Co (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=1Co&chapter=9#21) 9:21 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Co&chapter=9&verse=21)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
To those free from the law (unsaved not jews) I became like one free from the law (though I am not free from God’s law but under the law of Christ) to gain those free from the law.

Gal (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Gal&chapter=6#2) 6:2 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=6&verse=2)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
Carry one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

I pray this helps

forum lurker
Apr 26th 2009, 06:51 AM
Maybe I should make myself clearer as to what I meant about Matt 5, 6, and 7.

Everytime Jesus says, "You have heard" He is speaking of keeping the letter of the law, but Jesus ups the anti saying "But I say to you" showing us there is more to it than just the letter of the Law. We must keep the Spirit of the Law. e.g., thou shalt not murder. Jesus says but if you are angry enough to murder then it is the same sin. Or do not commit adultery. But if you are thinking it then it is the same as doing it. Jesus is commanding that we keep the Spirit of the Law.

He is commanding us about how we should conduct ourselves, in actions, and in thought also, so that we might walk in goodness and keep ourselves from evil ways. But still He is not talking about salvation in this. Salvation comes only through believing in Him.

He is not doing away with the Law, He is fulfilling it. If we walk in His ways then we are keeping His commands.

Thanks for clarifying. Perhaps that's where we differ, to me keeping the spirit of the law can equal keeping the law. I'm not suggesting to keep the letter of the law the same way the Galatians tried to do.

forum lurker
Apr 26th 2009, 06:54 AM
bagofseed, I'd repeat what I said to Searcher1, Paul wasn't teaching against keeping the spirit of the law, he was teaching against keeping the letter of the law. I suppose you'd agree with this?




Which law, law is a simplified translation it may mean the law of Moses, the Torah, the Tanakh, the universal law of God that always was and is.
The law of liberty, The law of Christ, law of the mind, royal law, law of sin and death, law unto our selves.

Jesus referred to the Torah, if I'm not mistaken.



If you submit your self to the law at any point you must keep it all.That would be keeping the letter of the law, and I'm not arguing for that at all.

bagofseed
Apr 26th 2009, 07:25 AM
bagofseed, I'd repeat what I said to Searcher1, Paul wasn't teaching against keeping the spirit of the law, he was teaching against keeping the letter of the law. I suppose you'd agree with this?
.
Yes.
Keeping the spirit of the law without the the letter of the law but through the indwelling Spirit of God.

David Taylor
Apr 26th 2009, 10:30 AM
Moved from ETC to BC where Law discussions are more common and fitting....thread really isn't very ETC-centric.

forum lurker
Apr 26th 2009, 11:11 AM
Yes.
Keeping the spirit of the law without the the letter of the law but through the indwelling Spirit of God.

Ok, thank you.

So it boils down to what keeping the spirit of the law means in practice.

First, you can't know what's the spirit of the law is if the law doesn't exist in the first place, can you? You must know the letter of the law before you can put it to use.

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. (Matthew 5)

There's an example of Jesus showing the spirit of the law. The difference between this and the law's previous presentation is that Jesus shows that what's important is the intent. The letter of the law worked against the body committing wrong actions. Jesus works against the sinful nature before even wanting to do those things.

So, only the method of following the law is different. Anyway, that's how I see it.

Searcher1
Apr 26th 2009, 02:22 PM
First, you can't know what's the spirit of the law is if the law doesn't exist in the first place, can you? You must know the letter of the law before you can put it to use.


I think Abraham kept the spirit of the law before the Laws were given. He loved God with all His heart and mind and soul. By doing this he kept himself from doing evil by only doing what would be pleasing to God. He had great faith in God.

God bless,
Norma

forum lurker
Apr 26th 2009, 03:09 PM
I think Abraham kept the spirit of the law before the Laws were given. He loved God with all His heart and mind and soul. By doing this he kept himself from doing evil by only doing what would be pleasing to God. He had great faith in God.

God bless,
Norma

I'm sure he did, but Abraham's relationship to God was somewhat unique, don't you think?

As it seems our only difference is how we view keeping the spirit of the law, what's your opinion about what I said in the previous post?


21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. (Matthew 5)

There's an example of Jesus showing the spirit of the law. The difference between this and the law's previous presentation is that Jesus shows that what's important is the intent. The letter of the law worked against the body committing wrong actions. Jesus works against the sinful nature before even wanting to do those things.

Do you think my interpretation is incorrect?

Searcher1
Apr 26th 2009, 03:41 PM
Kind of, but not quite how I personally see it.

It is the difference between keeping yourself from doing something outwardly, as compared to what is really in your heart. The spirit of the law is what is in your heart. Is there enough anger in your heart to want your neighbor to drop dead? You would never kill him, because that is against the law, but being angry enough to want him dead is the same as killing him.

Jesus doesn't just want us to just follow the law and not kill him in anger. He wants us to have the law written in our heart, so that the love in our heart will cause us not to feel this anger in the first place. That is the Spirit of the law. A spirit of love and mercy and forgiveness, etc. Real hard to be angry if that is what is in your heart.

This is what Jesus expects of us, and then He provides a Way. In this "Way" we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit to aid us in following the spirit of the law (A spirit of love and mercy and forgiveness, etc). But we still have the free will to mess up anytime we give into our flesh or nature.

If you live under the Spirit of the Law (the commands of Jesus) you will be keeping the commandments of God because in all things you will feel, and work, out of love and mercy and forgiveness.

God bless,
Norma





.

My heart's Desire
Apr 26th 2009, 05:04 PM
Okay. So we're not accountable to following the Law in order to attain salvation. Salvation is only by grace from Christ. We agree on that.

But what about Christ's statement, "whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven"?

Should we be teaching people to follow the Law or not? I'm not saying we would be teaching that the Law brings salvation (again, we've established already that only faith in Christ brings salvation), but if the Law is still in effect, and we teach people to not follow the Law, won't that mean we will "be called the least"? If the Law is still in effect, should we follow Christ's words and teach people to follow it?

With these discussions all I can say is I can't get the book of Galations out of my head. When discussion of law comes up that is the first that comes to mind. That and the argument Paul had with Peter when Peter would distance himself from the Gentiles when he was with the Jewish Christians.

bagofseed
Apr 27th 2009, 02:30 AM
Kind of, but not quite how I personally see it.

It is the difference between keeping yourself from doing something outwardly, as compared to what is really in your heart. The spirit of the law is what is in your heart. Is there enough anger in your heart to want your neighbor to drop dead? You would never kill him, because that is against the law, but being angry enough to want him dead is the same as killing him.

Jesus doesn't just want us to just follow the law and not kill him in anger. He wants us to have the law written in our heart, so that the love in our heart will cause us not to feel this anger in the first place. That is the Spirit of the law. A spirit of love and mercy and forgiveness, etc. Real hard to be angry if that is what is in your heart.

This is what Jesus expects of us, and then He provides a Way. In this "Way" we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit to aid us in following the spirit of the law (A spirit of love and mercy and forgiveness, etc). But we still have the free will to mess up anytime we give into our flesh or nature.

If you live under the Spirit of the Law (the commands of Jesus) you will be keeping the commandments of God because in all things you will feel, and work, out of love and mercy and forgiveness.

God bless,
Norma

Against such things there is no law.

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