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Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:35 AM
With regards to the following scripture, knowing that Christ died according to the law;

'IS' Christ under the law?

'IS' Christ dead to the law?

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:48 PM
We know that when Christ was on earth he was under the law, what I want to know is if his death has changed that position with regards to what is written?

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Kahtar
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:43 PM
Guess it depends on your definition of 'under' the law.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2009, 04:11 PM
Hebrews 7
Melchizedek the Priest
1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

4Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! 5Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham. 6This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater. 8In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. 9One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.
Jesus Like Melchizedek
11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is declared:
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."

18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
"The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
'You are a priest forever.' " 22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

The above chapter, and chapter eight, point out that Christ has set up a new covenant. He mediates a new one, not the old one. So, He is not under the old law, since He died and made and enacted anew one, with anew oath from God Himself.....

Teke
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:29 PM
We know that when Christ was on earth he was under the law, what I want to know is if his death has changed that position with regards to what is written?

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Death changes everything. Christians are baptized into His death to attain their position in Christ. Paul paradoxically illustrates freedom from the law by examples taken from the law, in reference to the verse you've posted.

I believe Slightlypuzzled has clarified the concept meant in that section of Romans.:)

Emanate
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:24 PM
The above chapter, and chapter eight, point out that Christ has set up a new covenant. He mediates a new one, not the old one. So, He is not under the old law, since He died and made and enacted anew one, with anew oath from God Himself.....


what, then, is the new covenant? it is defined within the framework of the "old" covenant.

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:36 PM
The above chapter, and chapter eight, point out that Christ has set up a new covenant. He mediates a new one, not the old one. So, He is not under the old law, since He died and made and enacted anew one, with anew oath from God Himself.....


What is the name of this new law and how does a person obey it? Is there a positive for obeying this new law and is there a negative for not obeying it?

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:51 PM
what, then, is the new covenant? it is defined within the framework of the "old" covenant.

For the writer of Hebrews, it is defined 'within' the framework of the Oath given in Psalms 110: ' 4The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind,
"You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."

This oath pre-dates the old covenant by a few hundred years.

Thanks Teke for reminding me of that verse....;)

If you want to think of the 'with-in vs. out-of', read Phil. 2:
5(I)Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in (J)Christ Jesus,

6who, although He (K)existed in the (L)form of God, (M)did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7but [a](N)emptied Himself, taking the form of a (O)bond-servant, and (P)being made in the likeness of men.

8Being found in appearance as a man, (Q)He humbled Himself by becoming (R)obedient to the point of death, even (S)death on a cross.

Galatians 4:
4But when (C)the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, (D)born of a woman, born (E)under the Law,

5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as (F)sons.

Hebrews 2:
9But we do see Him who was (T)made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, (U)because of the suffering of death (V)crowned with glory and honor, so that (W)by the grace of God He might (X)taste death (Y)for everyone.

10For (Z)it was fitting for Him, (AA)for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to (AB)perfect the (AC)author of their salvation through sufferings.

11For both He who (AD)sanctifies and those who (AE)are sanctified are all (AF)from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them (AG)brethren,

12saying,
"(AH)I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."

13And again,
"(AI)I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM "
And again,
"(AJ)BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."

14Therefore, since the children share in (AK)flesh and blood, (AL)He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that (AM)through death He might render powerless (AN)him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15and might free those who through (AO)fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

17Therefore, He had (AP)to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might (AQ)become a merciful and faithful (AR)high priest in (AS)things pertaining to God, to (AT)make propitiation for the sins of the people.

18For since He Himself was (AU)tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted

Jesus entered into humanity and the law, from a point outside it (unless you wish to argue that God is under the law0. Paul's exposition in Colossians and Ephesians follow this route, also. His ministry was defined before his earthly birth, and He died so that we could all share in that death which takes our true live back into a heavenly abode where He is now, at the right hand of the father.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:58 PM
Guess it depends on your definition of 'under' the law.

According to the scripture which law do you think is being spoken of?

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:01 PM
What is the name of this new law and how does a person obey it? Is there a positive for obeying this new law and is there a negative for not obeying it?

From Paul in Galatians 5:
22But (AQ)the fruit of the Spirit is (AR)love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23gentleness, (AS)self-control; against such things (AT)there is no law.

The name of it....consider:
Matthew 25:
26(AF)While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and (AG)after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."

27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;

28for (AH)this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for (AI)many for forgiveness of sins.

and Galatians 2:
20"I have been (AV)crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but (AW)Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in (AX)the Son of God, who (AY)loved me and (AZ)gave Himself up for me.

It is the Body of Christ, and Christ Himself...

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:05 PM
According to the scripture which law do you think is being spoken of?

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Paul, in Romans 8:
2For (D)the law of the Spirit of life in (E)Christ Jesus (F)has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

3For (G)what the Law could not do, (H)weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in (I)the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

4so that the (J)requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who (K)do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The Law of the Spirit of Life....

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:16 PM
What is the name of this new law and how does a person obey it? Is there a positive for obeying this new law and is there a negative for not obeying it?

How did you answer the question, is Jesus under the law knowing that he has died according to the law?

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:27 PM
Paul, in Romans 8:
2For (D)the law of the Spirit of life in (E)Christ Jesus (F)has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

3For (G)what the Law could not do, (H)weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in (I)the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

4so that the (J)requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who (K)do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The Law of the Spirit of Life....

Why would Christ not be under the law of the Spirit if this scripture refers to the law of the Spirit, is Christ not spirit, since he has died?

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Were you saying that the law of the Spirit is what Christ is under now?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:38 PM
Why would Christ not be under the law of the Spirit if this scripture refers to the law of the Spirit, is Christ not spirit, since he has died?

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Were you saying that the law of the Spirit is what Christ is under now?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Christ is the 'Law' for us. He fulfilled the requirements of the law, and united us into Him. Our life is in Him, and He is the new covenant....

I guess to me, it is our spiritual union with Christ that makes it 'work' for us...it drives us to produce the fruit of the Spirit. Paul argues that it is Christ who set him free from the Law and gave him life to do what he could not otherwise do. Again, consider Galatians 2:
19"For through the Law I (AU)died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

20"I have been (AV)crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but (AW)Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in (AX)the Son of God, who (AY)loved me and (AZ)gave Himself up for me.

In dying to the Law, Paul found life in God that was founded in Jesus Christ...

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:41 PM
How did you answer the question, is Jesus under the law knowing that he has died according to the law?

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Our definitions we assign to each word do not match. We accept different translations and interpretations. Hence, we will only disagree. So I say, yes I still live, but I am trying to die daily, by the means in which we die to our carnality is where we disagree.

No Yeshua is not under the torah according to your definition of "under" and "law". The elements of freewill, love, and responsibility are not in your definition and interpretation. You have bondage, duty, and obligation in your definition, I suppose.

PilgrimPastor
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:46 PM
Christ "is" the Law - that is; He is the Law Illuminated... the Logos, the Word of God manifest in the flesh.


This is from a sermon I delivered on the subject last year... On the Mount of Transfiguration it was our very salvation which was illuminated! It was the truth of God’s love and mercy and Justice and Holiness all perfectly bound up in Jesus Christ. Just as Moses went atop Mount Sinai to receive the truth of God’s Law, Peter and James went along with Jesus the top of an unnamed mountain of Galilee where the Law was fully illuminated in Christ.

Jesus did not come to destroy the Law but to bring it to completion. Jesus did not come to do away with God’s holiness but to ascribe it to us through His shed blood and broken body. All that we could not do for ourselves God has done for us in Christ. The darkness which we were once in has been illuminated by the light of the love of Christ.

Oswald Chambers, the great devotional author, wrote, “There is a danger of forgetting that the Bible reveals, not first the love of God, but the intense, blazing holiness of God, with his love as the center of that holiness.”

You and I need not walk as though we walk in darkness. Nor are we required to live as though we are in shackles to our sin because God’s Law has been brought to completion in the person of Jesus Christ. God’s holiness is imputed to us as we allow our hearts to be illuminated by the light of Christ.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:59 PM
Christ is the 'Law' for us. He fulfilled the requirements of the law, and united us into Him. Our life is in Him, and He is the new covenant....

I guess to me, it is our spiritual union with Christ that makes it 'work' for us...it drives us to produce the fruit of the Spirit. Paul argues that it is Christ who set him free from the Law and gave him life to do what he could not otherwise do. Again, consider Galatians 2:
19"For through the Law I (AU)died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

20"I have been (AV)crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but (AW)Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in (AX)the Son of God, who (AY)loved me and (AZ)gave Himself up for me.

In dying to the Law, Paul found life in God that was founded in Jesus Christ...

So with regards to the OP which law is Christ dead to, as he has died according to the law and is therefore free from what he was under?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:09 PM
Our definitions we assign to each word do not match. We accept different translations and interpretations. Hence, we will only disagree. So I say, yes I still live, but I am trying to die daily, by the means in which we die to our carnality is where we disagree.

No Yeshua is not under the torah according to your definition of "under" and "law". The elements of freewill, love, and responsibility are not in your definition and interpretation. You have bondage, duty, and obligation in your definition, I suppose.

Let us leave translations behind, When Jesus was here he was under the law, according to what is written when a man dies he is then free from that law. He is no longer under the law he was under.

Is that understandable?

Firstfruits

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:13 PM
So with regards to the OP which law is Christ dead to, as he has died according to the law and is therefore free from what he was under?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

In the context of Galatians 2, it would be the Old Law given on Sinai, the one that many Jews were trying to force the Gentile Christians to be bond to through circumcision.

Paul argues in chapter 4:
1Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not (AA)listen to the law?

22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, (AB)one by the bondwoman and (AC)one by the free woman.

23But (AD)the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and (AE)the son by the free woman through the promise.

24(AF)This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from (AG)Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be (AH)slaves; she is Hagar.

25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

26But (AI)the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27For it is written,
"(AJ)REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."

28And you brethren, (AK)like Isaac, are (AL)children of promise.

29But as at that time (AM)he who was born according to the flesh (AN)persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, (AO)so it is now also.

30But what does the Scripture say?
"(AP)CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR (AQ)THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Christians are children of the free woman, chldren of promise....a full reading of Galatians is highly recommended.

Please forgive me if I sound trite, I am only expressing what I have come to see in the New Testament writings....and may He richly bless you....:thumbsup:

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:25 PM
In the context of Galatians 2, it would be the Old Law given on Sinai, the one that many Jews were trying to force the Gentile Christians to be bond to through circumcision.

Paul argues in chapter 4:
1Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not (AA)listen to the law?

22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, (AB)one by the bondwoman and (AC)one by the free woman.

23But (AD)the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and (AE)the son by the free woman through the promise.

24(AF)This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from (AG)Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be (AH)slaves; she is Hagar.

25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

26But (AI)the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27For it is written,
"(AJ)REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."

28And you brethren, (AK)like Isaac, are (AL)children of promise.

29But as at that time (AM)he who was born according to the flesh (AN)persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, (AO)so it is now also.

30But what does the Scripture say?
"(AP)CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR (AQ)THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Christians are children of the free woman, chldren of promise....a full reading of Galatians is highly recommended.

Please forgive me if I sound trite, I am only expressing what I have come to see in the New Testament writings....and may He richly bless you....:thumbsup:

Thanks Slightlypuzzled,

I believe that answers the OP, with regards to the following scripture.

Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:58 PM
Let us leave translations behind, When Jesus was here he was under the law, according to what is written when a man dies he is then free from that law. He is no longer under the law he was under.

Is that understandable?

Firstfruits

Why do we have to leave translations and interpretations behind? LOL :lol:

I hear you FF. By the way, do you want to be a first fruit saint that the book of Revelation speaks of?

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:02 PM
Thanks Slightlypuzzled,

I believe that answers the OP, with regards to the following scripture.

Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


You are quite welcome...and thanks for a good question, it certainly caused me to read and think......;)

Teke
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:08 PM
Hey FirstFruits, I think we will need to bookmark this thread.:lol:
I don't think it could've been laid out any crystal clearer than Slightlypuzzled has done in this thread. SP must be in the Spirit zone today. :D

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 06:53 AM
Why do we have to leave translations and interpretations behind? LOL :lol:

I hear you FF. By the way, do you want to be a first fruit saint that the book of Revelation speaks of?

Should we not be firstfruits according to the following scripture?

Jas 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Are we not dead with Christ and also raised with christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 06:58 AM
Hey FirstFruits, I think we will need to bookmark this thread.:lol:
I don't think it could've been laid out any crystal clearer than Slightlypuzzled has done in this thread. SP must be in the Spirit zone today. :D

Amen and Amen!!!!

There is one thing that gets me, and that is that when I am fast asleep that is when everyone is up and running and I cannot get to reply as I would like, but I am still thankful.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 24th 2009, 01:04 PM
For the writer of Hebrews, it is defined 'within' the framework of the Oath given in Psalms 110: ' 4The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind,
"You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."

This oath pre-dates the old covenant by a few hundred years.

Thanks Teke for reminding me of that verse....;)

If you want to think of the 'with-in vs. out-of', read Phil. 2:
5(I)Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in (J)Christ Jesus,

6who, although He (K)existed in the (L)form of God, (M)did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7but [a](N)emptied Himself, taking the form of a (O)bond-servant, and (P)being made in the likeness of men.

8Being found in appearance as a man, (Q)He humbled Himself by becoming (R)obedient to the point of death, even (S)death on a cross.

Galatians 4:
4But when (C)the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, (D)born of a woman, born (E)under the Law,

5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as (F)sons.

Hebrews 2:
9But we do see Him who was (T)made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, (U)because of the suffering of death (V)crowned with glory and honor, so that (W)by the grace of God He might (X)taste death (Y)for everyone.

10For (Z)it was fitting for Him, (AA)for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to (AB)perfect the (AC)author of their salvation through sufferings.

11For both He who (AD)sanctifies and those who (AE)are sanctified are all (AF)from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them (AG)brethren,

12saying,
"(AH)I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."

13And again,
"(AI)I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM "
And again,
"(AJ)BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."

14Therefore, since the children share in (AK)flesh and blood, (AL)He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that (AM)through death He might render powerless (AN)him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15and might free those who through (AO)fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

17Therefore, He had (AP)to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might (AQ)become a merciful and faithful (AR)high priest in (AS)things pertaining to God, to (AT)make propitiation for the sins of the people.

18For since He Himself was (AU)tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted

Jesus entered into humanity and the law, from a point outside it (unless you wish to argue that God is under the law0. Paul's exposition in Colossians and Ephesians follow this route, also. His ministry was defined before his earthly birth, and He died so that we could all share in that death which takes our true live back into a heavenly abode where He is now, at the right hand of the father.

The seventh day as a day of rest predated the law as well, however, this did not even begin to answer my question. Scripturally, what is the 'new' covenant?

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 01:24 PM
The seventh day as a day of rest predated the law as well, however, this did not even begin to answer my question. Scripturally, what is the 'new' covenant?

I was under the impression that the law was there from the begining according to some of the posts I have read here. Is that not the case?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
Apr 24th 2009, 02:44 PM
The seventh day as a day of rest predated the law as well, however, this did not even begin to answer my question. Scripturally, what is the 'new' covenant?

See Hebrews 8, which follows 7 that SP already posted in the thread.

Emanate
Apr 24th 2009, 04:37 PM
I was under the impression that the law was there from the begining according to some of the posts I have read here. Is that not the case?

There was indeed a form of the Instruction of YHWH from the beginning. To what extent, I cannot answer conclusively.

Emanate
Apr 24th 2009, 04:38 PM
See Hebrews 8, which follows 7 that SP already posted in the thread.


That is the gist of my point. Everyone uses the NT to define things instead of their foundational scriptural references.

Teke
Apr 24th 2009, 04:43 PM
That is the gist of my point. Everyone uses the NT to define things instead of their foundational scriptural references.

Does this mean you want OT references [is this what you mean by "foundational"] to go along with NT ones?

The prophets prophecied about the new covenant that would one day come when Messiah came. But as far as the OT explaining the NT, I don't think that was possible. Paul even called it a mystery.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 06:13 PM
There was indeed a form of the Instruction of YHWH from the beginning. To what extent, I cannot answer conclusively.

Would that not mean that the gentiles also had the law before the law was given at mount Sinai?

But how would that explain the following?

Eph 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Who had the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 27th 2009, 08:37 PM
Would that not mean that the gentiles also had the law before the law was given at mount Sinai?



I do not see how. We see references to clean/unclean tithes, etc... SO there was obviously some of it in effect.

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2009, 07:45 AM
I do not see how. We see references to clean/unclean tithes, etc... SO there was obviously some of it in effect.

Do we believe that Gods laws were in effect since Adam, if so would that not mean that all mankind had Gods law before they were given at Mount Sinai?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

bagofseed
Apr 28th 2009, 08:08 AM
Gods law based on God's nature said that Gods way is right.
All that was against Gods nature would die because that was its nature.

Moses Law put Gods nature in fleshly human terms gave a standard by which to judge sinful fleshly man. it came with curses and blessings and specific judgments for breakage. It instituted human practices and a fleshly priesthood.
It all was a physical version of what was spiritual.

Jesus fulfilled the mosaic law, going through the fleshly centric mosaic law removed the separation of it for us causing us to die to the law through the law so that we might live to God.

Secondly we are given the nature of God through the gift of the Holy Spirit and His work of salvation which causes us to keep the law based on God's nature.

Christ Jesus kept the law of the nature of God and the mosaic law conserning human pratices. When he died it was for our sins, keeping all the law Jesus should have never died. (Substitution) Now everyone is under the law as long as they live. Jesus died and we died, Jesus died in everyones place.
Now we are no longer under judgement, death has no power because the law was taken out of the way (satisfied by our deaths in Jesus)
but we are still to be saved by His Life, to be conformed to the divine nature, so that we like God have His nature and not a sinful nature that dies.

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2009, 08:14 AM
Gods law based on God's nature said that Gods way is right.
All that was against Gods nature would die because that was its nature.

Moses Law put Gods nature in fleshly human terms gave a standard by which to judge sinful fleshly man. it came with curses and blessings and specific judgments for breakage. It instituted human practices and a fleshly priesthood.
It all was a physical version of what was spiritual.

Jesus fulfilled the mosaic law, going through the fleshly centric mosaic law removed the separation of it for us causing us to die to the law through the law so that we might live to God.

Secondly we are given the nature of God through the gift of the Holy Spirit and His work of salvation which causes us to keep the law based on God's nature.

Christ Jesus kept the law of the nature of God and the mosaic law conserning human pratices. When he died it was for our sins, keeping all the law Jesus should have never died. (Substitution) Now everyone is under the law as long as they live. Jesus died and we died, Jesus died in everyones place.
Now we are no longer under judgement, death has no power because the law was taken out of the way (satisfied by our deaths in Jesus)
but we are still to be saved by His Life, to be conformed to the divine nature, so that we like God have His nature and not a sinful nature that dies.

Thanks Bagofseed,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2009, 05:48 PM
No Yeshua is not under the torah according to your definition of "under" and "law". The elements of freewill, love, and responsibility are not in your definition and interpretation. You have bondage, duty, and obligation in your definition, I suppose.

If Christ is not under the Torah, and we are one with Christ then the following must be true, unless there are different gospels.

Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 06:37 PM
If Christ is not under the Torah, and we are one with Christ then the following must be true, unless there are different gospels.

Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Maybe we should ask if everyone has been baptized and do they know what that means. :cool:

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2009, 07:00 PM
Maybe we should ask if everyone has been baptized and do they know what that means. :cool:

Thanks Teke,

Well this is the scripture, and anyone may answer what they believe it means to be baptized.

Please answer according to the scriptures.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 28th 2009, 07:22 PM
Maybe we should ask if everyone has been baptized and do they know what that means. :cool:


baptism has been fulfilled by Messiah.

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 07:28 PM
baptism has been fulfilled by Messiah.

What does that mean in your opinion? You don't need baptism?

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2009, 07:28 PM
baptism has been fulfilled by Messiah.

That does not answer the question according to the scriptures.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Firstfruits

BHS
Apr 28th 2009, 09:31 PM
How confusing! Do Christians not understand that God does have a law, always has and always will? If we say we are not under God's law, then we are essentially "lawless". The law of the Spirit is essentially what the Spirit of God has breathed into His Word.

If you do not study the complete Word of God, that I think would bring confusion -- just like we see here.

Blessings,
BHS

RabbiKnife
Apr 28th 2009, 09:33 PM
How confusing! Do Christians not understand that God does have a law, always has and always will? If we say we are not under God's law, then we are essentially "lawless". The law of the Spirit is essentially what the Spirit of God has breathed into His Word.

If you do not study the complete Word of God, that I think would bring confusion -- just like we see here.

Blessings,
BHS

Do Christians not understand that God has a moral law and at one time expressed that moral law through the Mosaic or Levitical law, but has now expressed that moral law through his Son?

BHS
Apr 28th 2009, 09:44 PM
Did Jesus practice a different moral law than was practiced by the ancient Israelites? Was He for some reason exempt?

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Apr 29th 2009, 08:27 AM
Did Jesus practice a different moral law than was practiced by the ancient Israelites? Was He for some reason exempt?

Blessings,
BHS

The moral law is not the whole law of Moses it is only a part of it. The moral law towards one another according to Christ commandment is the whole law of Christ.

Rom 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
Apr 29th 2009, 12:47 PM
How confusing!

Are you bringing clarity to Christ.


Do Christians not understand that God does have a law, always has and always will? If we say we are not under God's law, then we are essentially "lawless". The law of the Spirit is essentially what the Spirit of God has breathed into His Word.

Christians understand that "law"=guidance, and without guidance there can be mistakes that result in consequences.

Where is scripture to back up what you say, "The law of the Spirit is essentially what the Spirit of God has breathed into His Word." That is a statement contradictory to the Trinity. The Spirit never breathed into the Son who is the Word.


If you do not study the complete Word of God, that I think would bring confusion -- just like we see here.

Blessings,
BHS

You will need more than the written word, you will also need a living breathing witness such as the church to clarify the guidance of the Spirit.

The church's first love is Jesus Christ. So first principle is that everything is subject to Him, which includes all written words. Using that principle, the church also doesn't give the body and blood of our Lord to those who are not baptized, just as Moses told Israel not to eat the Passover with anyone not circumcised. And as the guest without a wedding garment is not an invited guest to the marriage feast of the Lamb.

BHS
Apr 29th 2009, 04:43 PM
FF,

Every commandment given can in some way be considered moral. The division of the law into ceremonial, moral, etc. is not considered by well-known OT scholars to be valid. It is a division contrived by man and not by God.

Blessings,
BHS

RabbiKnife
Apr 29th 2009, 08:30 PM
FF,

Every commandment given can in some way be considered moral. The division of the law into ceremonial, moral, etc. is not considered by well-known OT scholars to be valid. It is a division contrived by man and not by God.

Blessings,
BHS

Who are the "well-known OT scholars" and where can I find this information?

Firstfruits
Apr 30th 2009, 06:56 AM
FF,

Every commandment given can in some way be considered moral. The division of the law into ceremonial, moral, etc. is not considered by well-known OT scholars to be valid. It is a division contrived by man and not by God.

Blessings,
BHS

The difference here is that though we may all have morals we do not all have the law, being moral does not mean we are following the law.

God bless you BHS!!!!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 30th 2009, 12:51 PM
The difference here is that though we may all have morals we do not all have the law, being moral does not mean we are following the law.

God bless you BHS!!!!

Firstfruits


So if you do what the law says you are not doing what the law says because you are doing the law not because it is what the law says but you are doing the law because the law contains moral commands that have nothing to do with the law?

Firstfruits
Apr 30th 2009, 01:41 PM
So if you do what the law says you are not doing what the law says because you are doing the law not because it is what the law says but you are doing the law because the law contains moral commands that have nothing to do with the law?

If my morals are perfect but my religion is not of God or my doctrine is false or I am an atheist, am I in God will. Will I go to Heaven, can I be saved by my perfect morals?

Please provide scripture regarding your answers, thanks.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 30th 2009, 03:09 PM
If my morals are perfect but my religion is not of God or my doctrine is false or I am an atheist, am I in God will. Will I go to Heaven, can I be saved by my perfect morals?

Please provide scripture regarding your answers, thanks.

Firstfruits


How we come so far to be back at square one again? FF, I had hoped we had moved past the elementary principles by now.

Firstfruits
Apr 30th 2009, 04:18 PM
How we come so far to be back at square one again? FF, I had hoped we had moved past the elementary principles by now.

I am still waiting for the scriptures that affirm your question to me, and also, unless you are saying that everyone that lives moral live is following the will of God then you are also saying they do not need the law if they lived moral lives without the law.

Again please provide your scripture if available so that we can compare the word with the word.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
Apr 30th 2009, 05:28 PM
Thanks Teke,

Well this is the scripture, and anyone may answer what they believe it means to be baptized.

Please answer according to the scriptures.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Seems to be a lack of response to your question. Threads has went onto morality and the law. Does this mean that they are associating baptism with morality and law?

Firstfruits
Apr 30th 2009, 05:39 PM
Seems to be a lack of response to your question. Threads has went onto morality and the law. Does this mean that they are associating baptism with morality and law?

I suppose because of the OP a thread about baptism should be started separately, this should leave the Op concerning Christ being under the law would be able to continue.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 30th 2009, 07:13 PM
What scriptures to which post of mine?

BHS
Apr 30th 2009, 08:19 PM
Who are the "well-known OT scholars" and where can I find this information?

Christopher J. H. Wright, for one. His book is titled "Old Testament Ethics for the People of God"

Blessings,
BHS

BHS
Apr 30th 2009, 08:34 PM
This is not a post in response to any particular post here. It is, however, information concerning the law.

This is a quote from the book “From Famine to Fullness – the Gospel According to Ruth” by Dr. Dean R. Ulrich.

“We surely cannot claim to love God and not keep His commandments; otherwise, love becomes vague and ultimately self-defined. ... Love goes beyond the moral baseline of the law to self-sacrifice for the benefit of others. In addition to keeping the law so as not to harm others, love also includes seizing opportunities to promote the welfare of others, even at cost to oneself.”

Legalism is devoid of love – doing no more than the law required. If we were to have intellectual honesty those who are opposed to the law, would come to the point they realize what Dr. Ulrich says –

without following the law of God, love becomes vague and becomes what we in our finite minds decide it to be.

Christ followed the commandments of the Father.

Blessings,
BHS

RabbiKnife
Apr 30th 2009, 08:38 PM
Christopher H. T. Wright, for one.

Blessings,
BHS

That's doesn't help me much.

Where can I find something written by him that addresses this issue?

BHS
Apr 30th 2009, 08:44 PM
Check my edited post --

Blessings,
BHS

RabbiKnife
Apr 30th 2009, 08:46 PM
Thank you.
12345678910

Firstfruits
Apr 30th 2009, 09:23 PM
What scriptures to which post of mine?

Originally Posted by Emanate http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2059816#post2059816)
So if you do what the law says you are not doing what the law says because you are doing the law not because it is what the law says but you are doing the law because the law contains moral commands that have nothing to do with the law?

If my morals are perfect but my religion is not of God or my doctrine is false or I am an atheist, am I in God will. Will I go to Heaven, can I be saved by my perfect morals?

Please provide scripture regarding your answers, thanks.

Does morality make us children of God?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits

Emanate
Apr 30th 2009, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Emanate http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2059816#post2059816)
So if you do what the law says you are not doing what the law says because you are doing the law not because it is what the law says but you are doing the law because the law contains moral commands that have nothing to do with the law?

If my morals are perfect but my religion is not of God or my doctrine is false or I am an atheist, am I in God will. Will I go to Heaven, can I be saved by my perfect morals?

Please provide scripture regarding your answers, thanks.

Does morality make us children of God?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits


I won't answer this again. I have been very clear on my stance on salvation and answered you on this at least a dozen times, and said it on my own accord at least two dozen more. You asking reveals to me that you do not even weigh my responses are consider them. What reason is there for further discussion?

Firstfruits
May 1st 2009, 08:18 AM
I won't answer this again. I have been very clear on my stance on salvation and answered you on this at least a dozen times, and said it on my own accord at least two dozen more. You asking reveals to me that you do not even weigh my responses are consider them. What reason is there for further discussion?

If living moraly means we are saved because we are keeping part of the law, then no matter what our beliefs we must have salvation.

Therefore is morality the same as salvation?

I do take note of your responses but they do not match up to scripture regarding morality.

Firstfruits

Teke
May 1st 2009, 01:53 PM
I suppose because of the OP a thread about baptism should be started separately, this should leave the Op concerning Christ being under the law would be able to continue.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Ah, but they aren't going to answer in such a thread. As I've pointed out the law observers do not observe this 'law' to which Christ was obedient.

As to Christ being "under the law", the scriptures which state He was "born" 'under the law', are to be equated with those "under the law", in that also ONLY HE is their salvation. Not some guidelines for morality.

That there is some sub existence of God's morality in everything created is a given. One of which we cannot debate.

So since 'law observers' are equating the law with Christ in "fulfilling all righteousness", which is a moral condition, were is the physical obedience if not in baptism.

There isn't only a spiritual aspect of things, but also the physical reality of things. So I say, as did Jesus, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (meaning that which is by faith for righteousness) He also said, "All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

So I put forth the same question of Galatians.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

As James says, "faith without works is dead." And the law is not "of faith". Abraham was not declared righteous by his faith alone, but also by his works, which were apart from the law of Sinai.


In peace,
Eve

Firstfruits
May 1st 2009, 02:01 PM
Ah, but they aren't going to answer in such a thread. As I've pointed out the law observers do not observe this 'law' to which Christ was obedient.

As to Christ being "under the law", the scriptures which state He was "born" 'under the law', are to be equated with those "under the law", in that also ONLY HE is their salvation. Not some guidelines for morality.

That there is some sub existence of God's morality in everything created is a given. One of which we cannot debate.

So since 'law observers' are equating the law with Christ in "fulfilling all righteousness", which is a moral condition, were is the physical obedience if not in baptism.

There isn't only a spiritual aspect of things, but also the physical reality of things. So I say, as did Jesus, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (meaning that which is by faith for righteousness) He also said, "All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

So I put forth the same question of Galatians.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

As James says, "faith without works is dead." And the law is not "of faith". Abraham was not declared righteous by his faith alone, but also by his works, which were apart from the law of Sinai.


In peace,
Eve

Thanks Eve,

I understand and agree, at least the chance to reply is there for those who will.

The sower and the seed springs to mind.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
May 1st 2009, 06:59 PM
If living moraly means we are saved because we are keeping part of the law, then no matter what our beliefs we must have salvation.

Therefore is morality the same as salvation?

I do take note of your responses but they do not match up to scripture regarding morality.

Firstfruits


Salvation is Salvation. Morality is morality. My post was not attempting to address scripture, I was trying to decipher how we should not live by the law, while doing things found in the law.

Pilgrimtozion
May 1st 2009, 07:14 PM
If living moraly means we are saved because we are keeping part of the law, then no matter what our beliefs we must have salvation.

Therefore is morality the same as salvation?

I do take note of your responses but they do not match up to scripture regarding morality.

Firstfruits
Ravi Zacharias says that redemption always precedes morality in Chrisianity, and I agree with Him. What sets Christianity apart from any other religion is that salvation precedes morality. No amount of morality is required for salvation - morality is only a result of salvation. We can even see this in the Ten Commandments, which start out with God saying, "I AM the Lord God who delivered you out of Egypt".

Emanate
May 1st 2009, 07:30 PM
Ravi Zacharias says that redemption always precedes morality in Chrisianity, and I agree with Him. What sets Christianity apart from any other religion is that salvation precedes morality. No amount of morality is required for salvation - morality is only a result of salvation. We can even see this in the Ten Commandments, which start out with God saying, "I AM the Lord God who delivered you out of Egypt".

This is what I see wrong with the attempt to make America a "christian nation." We are attempting, by law, to force people to be moral, who have no desire for morality. Perhaps if we focused more on preaching the gospel and making disciples we would be more effective?

RabbiKnife
May 1st 2009, 07:34 PM
This is what I see wrong with the attempt to make America a "christian nation." We are attempting, by law, to force people to be moral, who have no desire for morality. Perhaps if we focused more on preaching the gospel and making disciples we would be more effective?

Amen to that!!!

Pilgrimtozion
May 1st 2009, 07:58 PM
This is what I see wrong with the attempt to make America a "christian nation." We are attempting, by law, to force people to be moral, who have no desire for morality. Perhaps if we focused more on preaching the gospel and making disciples we would be more effective?
Oh, absolutely!! It's interesting how Paul never rails against the moral filth of Roman or Greek society but simply preaches Christ and Him crucified. What more than that is needed?

Firstfruits
May 2nd 2009, 11:37 AM
Oh, absolutely!! It's interesting how Paul never rails against the moral filth of Roman or Greek society but simply preaches Christ and Him crucified. What more than that is needed?

Herein lieth the Op, if Christ is not under the law and we are not under the law through christ then what more is needed?

Rom 6:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Is it not enough to preach Christ and him crucified?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
May 2nd 2009, 12:46 PM
Herein lieth the Op, if Christ is not under the law and we are not under the law through christ then what more is needed?

Is it not enough to preach Christ and him crucified?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Has it been established that Jesus was not under law??? Preaching Christ and Him crucified is "enough" only if you preach the whole truth of the matter.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
May 2nd 2009, 01:05 PM
Has it been established that Jesus was not under law??? Preaching Christ and Him crucified is "enough" only if you preach the whole truth of the matter.

Blessings,
BHS

The truth of matter is in the gospel.

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Not all can see the light or the truth of the gospel.

2 Cor 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Tim 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 2nd 2009, 01:15 PM
If we are following Christ, knowing that Christ is not under the law, or obligated to the things contained in the law, can we truly be folllowing Christ if we do otherwise, as though we are obligated to the law.

Are we following Christ?

Christ is free, are we?

God bless you!

BHS
May 3rd 2009, 06:38 PM
The truth of matter is in the gospel.

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Not all can see the light or the truth of the gospel.

2 Cor 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Tim 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

FF, the gospel came to the Jews first, even in the form of the Torah.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
May 4th 2009, 11:24 AM
FF, the gospel came to the Jews first, even in the form of the Torah.

Blessings,
BHS

Although the teaching about Christ is out of the law, we know that according to the scriptures Christ is not obligated to the law by His death.

We in Christ are as Christ and are also not obligated to the law. Through Christ we are made righteous, and as it is written the law is not made for a righteous man.

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
May 4th 2009, 12:00 PM
Although the teaching about Christ is out of the law, we know that according to the scriptures Christ is not obligated to the law by His death.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Can you prove this scripturally? The only verse I can think of is -- Romans 10:4, which is translated incorrectly.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

The Greek word translated "end" is "telos" which can also be translated "fulfillment" (which does not mean end), "goal", "outcome", "utmost".

Other translations:

Romans 10:4
For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.

Romans 10:4
For Messiah is the goal of the Torah for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Romans 10:4
For Messiah is the aim of the law, for righteousness, unto every one that believeth in him.

Paul contradicts the thought that the law is void with Romans 3:31

The Greek word translated "nullify" is "katargeo", which also means "bring to an end", "do away", "released from", " render powerless" "severed from". Paul says none of these describe the status of the "law".

Romans 3:31
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Other translations --

Romans 3:31
Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.

Romans 3:31
Do we then render inoperative the Torah through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah.

Romans 3:31
Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! Instead we uphold the law.

Why try to interpret the NT without the understanding of the original language and earlier Scriptures? That is like reading a book by beginning at the end.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
May 4th 2009, 12:53 PM
Can you prove this scripturally? The only verse I can think of is -- Romans 10:4, which is translated incorrectly.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

The Greek word translated "end" is "telos" which can also be translated "fulfillment" (which does not mean end), "goal", "outcome", "utmost".

Other translations:

Romans 10:4
For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.

Romans 10:4
For Messiah is the goal of the Torah for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Romans 10:4
For Messiah is the aim of the law, for righteousness, unto every one that believeth in him.

Paul contradicts the thought that the law is void with Romans 3:31

The Greek word translated "nullify" is "katargeo", which also means "bring to an end", "do away", "released from", " render powerless" "severed from". Paul says none of these describe the status of the "law".

Romans 3:31
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Other translations --

Romans 3:31
Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.

Romans 3:31
Do we then render inoperative the Torah through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah.

Romans 3:31
Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! Instead we uphold the law.

Why try to interpret the NT without the understanding of the original language and earlier Scriptures? That is like reading a book by beginning at the end.

Blessings,
BHS

Rom 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The following scripture must be understood according to what is written;

Rom 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

It do not say the law is no more, but for those that believe it is no longer valid for righteousness as it was under the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 4th 2009, 01:03 PM
The following scripture must be understood according to what is written;

Rom 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

It do not say the law is no more, but for those that believe it is no longer valid for righteousness as it was under the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

The verses following this one make it very clear. see verses 5-15 "with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation".

The word of faith is near everyone, in their heart and mouth.

It doesn't say, do the law with your heart.

Firstfruits
May 4th 2009, 01:09 PM
The verses following this one make it very clear. see verses 5-15 "with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation".

The word of faith is near everyone, in their heart and mouth.

It doesn't say, do the law with your heart.


Thanks Teke,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
May 4th 2009, 10:30 PM
Rom 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The following scripture must be understood according to what is written;

Rom 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

It do not say the law is no more, but for those that believe it is no longer valid for righteousness as it was under the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

You have to believe that Paul did not mean what he said in Romans 3:31 to believe that he is here referring to doing away with the law. This allegory has to do with the promised son vs. the son that was not promised.

That one could keep the law and be declared righteous is a Christian fallacy ( if I understand what you are saying). God never set up a legalistic system to be followed for salvation. That would be opposed to His very character and His work of Creation. There is nothing in the "OT" to indicate that one could be saved by their own righteousness by keeping the law. It is only by reading that into Paul's writings that one comes to that conclusion.

Again the Romans 10:4 passage should not be translated "end". Are you one who does not concern themselves with the original language? Or do you just choose the translation that fits your theology, even though there are other translations that do not use the word "end"? "End" does not satisfy what Paul understands the law to be.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 06:45 AM
You have to believe that Paul did not mean what he said in Romans 3:31 to believe that he is here referring to doing away with the law. This allegory has to do with the promised son vs. the son that was not promised.

That one could keep the law and be declared righteous is a Christian fallacy ( if I understand what you are saying). God never set up a legalistic system to be followed for salvation. That would be opposed to His very character and His work of Creation. There is nothing in the "OT" to indicate that one could be saved by their own righteousness by keeping the law. It is only by reading that into Paul's writings that one comes to that conclusion.

Again the Romans 10:4 passage should not be translated "end". Are you one who does not concern themselves with the original language? Or do you just choose the translation that fits your theology, even though there are other translations that do not use the word "end"? "End" does not satisfy what Paul understands the law to be.

Blessings,
BHS

As I pointed out before, the key line is 'For nthose who believe'

Rom 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Do you believe that you can obtain the righteousness of God by the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
May 5th 2009, 11:22 AM
As I pointed out before, the key line is 'For nthose who believe'

Rom 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Do you believe that you can obtain the righteousness of God by the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Of course not, though you seem to always want to put that upon us believers who study the Torah, even though we repeated say otherwise. I believe that Christ was Who the law aimed at for those who believe. That is what the Scripture says and that is what the "law" does.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 12:35 PM
Of course not, though you seem to always want to put that upon us believers who study the Torah, even though we repeated say otherwise. I believe that Christ was Who the law aimed at for those who believe. That is what the Scripture says and that is what the "law" does.

Blessings,
BHS

Since you agree with what is written concerning righteousness by the law, then with that in mind what therefore do you believe is the importance of the law other than as information concerning the promise of Christ as has been fulfilled?

Are believers included in the following scripture?

1 Tim 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1 Tim 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whoremongers, For them that defile themselves with mankind, For menstealers, For liars, For perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

God bless you!

Firstfruits



God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 5th 2009, 01:47 PM
You have to believe that Paul did not mean what he said in Romans 3:31 to believe that he is here referring to doing away with the law. This allegory has to do with the promised son vs. the son that was not promised.

That one could keep the law and be declared righteous is a Christian fallacy ( if I understand what you are saying). God never set up a legalistic system to be followed for salvation. That would be opposed to His very character and His work of Creation. There is nothing in the "OT" to indicate that one could be saved by their own righteousness by keeping the law. It is only by reading that into Paul's writings that one comes to that conclusion.

Again the Romans 10:4 passage should not be translated "end". Are you one who does not concern themselves with the original language? Or do you just choose the translation that fits your theology, even though there are other translations that do not use the word "end"? "End" does not satisfy what Paul understands the law to be.

Blessings,
BHS

BHS, Paul doesn't end with that verse, he goes on in the next verses explaining what he means. ie. righteousness of the law v5, contrasted with righteousness of faith v6. So evidently, there is/was/are those who believe there is righteousness of the law.

When Paul was Saul he believed by the law that what he did was righteous. So not only in his words, but in his deeds he declares what he means in what is written.

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 02:15 PM
With being Christ is dead to the law and not being under the law, if we live as Christ lived when he was here, are we not living as though Jesus has not died?

Why do we not live as the Resurrected Christ?

Gal 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Gal 4:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Are we not free?

Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

yaza
May 5th 2009, 02:20 PM
The above chapter, and chapter eight, point out that Christ has set up a new covenant. He mediates a new one, not the old one. So, He is not under the old law, since He died and made and enacted anew one, with anew oath from God Himself.....
seems pretty clear to me! outstanding post.

Firstfruits
May 6th 2009, 08:08 AM
seems pretty clear to me! outstanding post.

Though it may seem clear to you, it is not the same for all, when I say all I mean both Jew and Gentile.

Jew
Rom 11:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Gentile
Eph 4:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Not all can comprehend the light.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
May 6th 2009, 11:48 AM
Since you agree with what is written concerning righteousness by the law, then with that in mind what therefore do you believe is the importance of the law other than as information concerning the promise of Christ as has been fulfilled?

Are believers included in the following scripture?

1 Tim 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1 Tim 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whoremongers, For them that defile themselves with mankind, For menstealers, For liars, For perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

God bless you!

Firstfruits



God bless you!

Firstfruits

I'm not sure what it is you are saying I agree with. It is the righteous standard of a holy God.

Blessings,
BHS

BHS
May 6th 2009, 11:59 AM
For those who read Paul's writings and find it quite clear, are you looking in depth to see what the Greek language says? In Hebrews where sometimes you find the words "new covenant", the word "covenant" is actually not in the text. This is misleading because in probability, it does not refer to what most Christians think of when they think of the "new covenant". Where Paul mentions the "old covenant", he is not speaking of the OT or the "law".

So, no, Paul's writings are not as clear as most Christians think them to be. If Christians care enough to know the truth in the Word of God, they need to do some serious study and entertain the thought of seeking out the Hebrew and Greek word meanings. Can we understand where Paul is coming from without having a fairly good knowledge of the Hebrew Scripture?

Blessings,

BHS

BHS
May 6th 2009, 12:07 PM
BHS, Paul doesn't end with that verse, he goes on in the next verses explaining what he means. ie. righteousness of the law v5, contrasted with righteousness of faith v6. So evidently, there is/was/are those who believe there is righteousness of the law.

When Paul was Saul he believed by the law that what he did was righteous. So not only in his words, but in his deeds he declares what he means in what is written.

Paul, as Saul, probably believed that in persecuting the church, he was doing the "righteous" thing, but believing that "keeping the law" for righteousness (salvation) was not a part of his belief system, either as a Jew before or after receiving His Messiah.

BHS

Teke
May 6th 2009, 01:29 PM
For those who read Paul's writings and find it quite clear, are you looking in depth to see what the Greek language says? In Hebrews where sometimes you find the words "new covenant", the word "covenant" is actually not in the text. This is misleading because in probability, it does not refer to what most Christians think of when they think of the "new covenant". Where Paul mentions the "old covenant", he is not speaking of the OT or the "law".

So, no, Paul's writings are not as clear as most Christians think them to be. If Christians care enough to know the truth in the Word of God, they need to do some serious study and entertain the thought of seeking out the Hebrew and Greek word meanings. Can we understand where Paul is coming from without having a fairly good knowledge of the Hebrew Scripture?

Blessings,

BHS

So what are you saying BHS. Jeremiah 31:31 explained in Hebrews 8 is not really a covenant?

Teke
May 6th 2009, 01:32 PM
Paul, as Saul, probably believed that in persecuting the church, he was doing the "righteous" thing, but believing that "keeping the law" for righteousness (salvation) was not a part of his belief system, either as a Jew before or after receiving His Messiah.

BHS

Seems clear in Paul's writings that he thought he was wrong to use the law for rigtheousness. Paul didn't have the revelation of Christ when he was Saul. So how could he know any difference? Seems to be pretty important to him to relay this information to his brethren.

Firstfruits
May 6th 2009, 01:42 PM
Paul, as Saul, probably believed that in persecuting the church, he was doing the "righteous" thing, but believing that "keeping the law" for righteousness (salvation) was not a part of his belief system, either as a Jew before or after receiving His Messiah.

BHS

How would you explain the following scripture with regareds to what you have said concerning righteousness and the law?

Rom 9:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
May 6th 2009, 09:48 PM
How would you explain the following scripture with regareds to what you have said concerning righteousness and the law?

Rom 9:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

The "law" was a law of righteous instructions, which the Israelites failed to obey. How is that?

BHS

BHS
May 6th 2009, 09:54 PM
So what are you saying BHS. Jeremiah 31:31 explained in Hebrews 8 is not really a covenant?

No, I am saying that in Hebrews 8:13 specifically the word covenant does not appear in the original Greek text. This is the verse that is used to say the "old" is obsolete, being replaced by the "new".

BHS

Firstfruits
May 7th 2009, 07:39 AM
The "law" was a law of righteous instructions, which the Israelites failed to obey. How is that?

BHS

Though Israel had the law and though they may have done what is right according to the law, with out faith they could not attain the righteousness of God which is by faith in Christ.

Rom 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 10:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The righteousness of God is not through the law.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,

Who is it that is manifested?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
May 7th 2009, 01:08 PM
Though Israel had the law and though they may have done what is right according to the law, with out faith they could not attain the righteousness of God which is by faith in Christ.

Rom 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 10:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The righteousness of God is not through the law.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,

Who is it that is manifested?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Of course, Yeshua. You are opposed to the "law", but I am not opposed to Jesus, Who lived it and said it would remain forever. God's truth remains.

Blessings,
BHS

Teke
May 7th 2009, 01:24 PM
No, I am saying that in Hebrews 8:13 specifically the word covenant does not appear in the original Greek text. This is the verse that is used to say the "old" is obsolete, being replaced by the "new".

BHS

The context shows that verse 13 refers to what was previously quoted from Jeremiah. And Jeremiah clearly said "new covenant". Or are you saying that verse 13 is a change of subject?
9:1 has the word "covenant" added as well. Would you also agree there is no first covenant on the same textual grounds as your denying the second? That being an addition of a word for edification.

And what of Hebrews 12:24 that clearly states "new covenant", followed by verse 25 which says, "See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh".

And also, consider Jesus' parable of the wine skins.

Firstfruits
May 7th 2009, 01:30 PM
Of course, Yeshua. You are opposed to the "law", but I am not opposed to Jesus, Who lived it and said it would remain forever. God's truth remains.

Blessings,
BHS

I am not opposed to the law but this is what I believe;

1 Tim 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Do we therefore have the righteousness of God or the righteousness of the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
May 7th 2009, 05:05 PM
I am not opposed to the law but this is what I believe;

1 Tim 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Do we therefore have the righteousness of God or the righteousness of the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

What is the righteousness of the "law"? Why is it that we who study the Tanach (OT) have to defend and justify our love for the Word of God?

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
May 7th 2009, 06:48 PM
What is the righteousness of the "law"? Why is it that we who study the Tanach (OT) have to defend and justify our love for the Word of God?

Blessings,
BHS

Doing the things of the law is the righteousness of the law, it is however not the righteousness of God.

Rom 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 9:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

How can Gentiles that do not follow the law attain righteousness of God?

How can those that have the law attain the righteousness of God?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
May 7th 2009, 08:11 PM
I am not opposed to the law but this is what I believe;

1 Tim 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Do we therefore have the righteousness of God or the righteousness of the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits
As a believer in Christ, I can tell you I am opposed to the law! I also believe that if you place any value in laws & ordinances you are showing disrespect for Jesus. If you disrespect Jesus then.......

BHS
May 7th 2009, 11:24 PM
Doing the things of the law is the righteousness of the law, it is however not the righteousness of God.

Firstfruits

Tell that to Jesus

God bless,
BHS

embankmentlb
May 7th 2009, 11:44 PM
Can you prove this scripturally? The only verse I can think of is -- Romans 10:4, which is translated incorrectly.
BHS
That very humorous!

Firstfruits
May 8th 2009, 08:07 AM
Tell that to Jesus

God bless,
BHS

I believe Jesus already knows!!!!!

Rom 10:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
May 8th 2009, 11:22 AM
I believe Jesus already knows!!!!!

Rom 10:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

You equate anyone who delights in the Torah as trying to establish their own righteousness? So God in giving His loving instructions set up His People and anyone who would accept them to do wrong? And even Jesus, as a sinless human was not doing the righteousness of God (as you say in your previous post)?

This is where I have to part with this thread. It has lost reason.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
May 8th 2009, 11:37 AM
You equate anyone who delights in the Torah as trying to establish their own righteousness? So God in giving His loving instructions set up His People and anyone who would accept them to do wrong? And even Jesus, as a sinless human was not doing the righteousness of God (as you say in your previous post)?

This is where I have to part with this thread. It has lost reason.

Blessings,
BHS

Are you saying that that is what Paul is implying, as this was in reply to your question?

Originally Posted by BHS http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2063291#post2063291)
Can you prove this scripturally? The only verse I can think of is -- Romans 10:4, which is translated incorrectly.


Rom 10:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

You said 'Tell it to Jesus' so who then is Paul reffering to?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
May 8th 2009, 01:36 PM
You equate anyone who delights in the Torah as trying to establish their own righteousness?

BHS

I think this is absolutely true. First, you are not trusting Jesus to lead you in all things because you are trusting something else, the torah. Second, delighting in the torah you have your heart set on the sins you are supposedly not committing & ordinances for you to impress men. With Jesus your heart is set on love for your fellow man. Love is the ultimate act of worshiping God.

BHS
May 8th 2009, 05:19 PM
I think this is absolutely true. First, you are not trusting Jesus to lead you in all things because you are trusting something else, the torah. Second, delighting in the torah you have your heart set on the sins you are supposedly not committing & ordinances for you to impress men. With Jesus your heart is set on love for your fellow man. Love is the ultimate act of worshiping God.

You are imputing motive just as I could impute motive to FF and your posts, but I haven't. If you cannot understand the simple things of the Bible, I have no time to share with you the deeper things.

Blessings,
BHS

embankmentlb
May 8th 2009, 05:32 PM
You are imputing motive just as I could impute motive to FF and your posts, but I haven't. If you cannot understand the simple things of the Bible, I have no time to share with you the deeper things.

Blessings,
BHS

It must be in the translation.:rolleyes:

slightlypuzzled
May 8th 2009, 05:54 PM
FF, the gospel came to the Jews first, even in the form of the Torah.


Paul says this about the Gospel that he preached, that led to salvation Romans 1: 14(AA)I am [b]under obligation both to Greeks and to (AB)barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.

15So, for my part, I am eager to (AC)preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.

16For I am not (AD)ashamed of the gospel, for (AE)it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the (AF)Jew first and also to (AG)the Greek.


I Paul had the preaching of the Gospel more in mind in Acts 13:
46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold,
we are turning to the Gentiles...

The Jews, as a nation, usually rejected the Gospel, that is Paul's dictum in Rome, as recorded in Acts 28:
25And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers,

26saying,
'(AG)GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
"(AH)YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
27(AI)FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM."'

28"Therefore let it be known to you that (AJ)this salvation of God has been sent (AK)to the Gentiles; they will also listen."

The Jews who heard the Gospel preached and rejected it, were ultimately rejected by God.

embankmentlb
May 8th 2009, 06:51 PM
I would like to know how the gospel is in the torah.

Firstfruits
May 8th 2009, 09:12 PM
You are imputing motive just as I could impute motive to FF and your posts, but I haven't. If you cannot understand the simple things of the Bible, I have no time to share with you the deeper things.

Blessings,
BHS

Can you please tell me how what is written is what we are imputing, since you requested scriptural evidence of what I had said?

Originally Posted by BHS http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2063291#post2063291)
Can you prove this scripturally? The only verse I can think of is -- Romans 10:4, which is translated incorrectly.

Rom 10:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Even without verse 4 it tells us that although Israel were keeping the law by rejecting Jesus they had rejected the righteousness of God. Jesus is the righteousness of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
May 9th 2009, 01:52 AM
Are you saying that that is what Paul is implying, as this was in reply to your question?

Originally Posted by BHS http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2063291#post2063291)
Can you prove this scripturally? The only verse I can think of is -- Romans 10:4, which is translated incorrectly.


Rom 10:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

You said 'Tell it to Jesus' so who then is Paul reffering to?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

That is what you are implying. And you implied that Jesus did not keep the "law" because it is not the righteousness of God. What do you study!!!???

BHS

Firstfruits
May 9th 2009, 10:59 AM
That is what you are implying. And you implied that Jesus did not keep the "law" because it is not the righteousness of God. What do you study!!!???

BHS

We are saying that Jesus is dead to the law, since he had died according to the law and is therefore no longer obligated to the law.

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Are you dead with Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
May 9th 2009, 02:17 PM
We are saying that Jesus is dead to the law, since he had died according to the law and is therefore no longer obligated to the law.

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Are you dead with Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I am "dead with Christ" because believing in Him, I have been baptized into Christ, dead to my old life of sin, buried with Him in baptism, raised to walk in newness of life by the power of the Holy Spirit. This "newness" of life is tied to the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-33. You read and interpret the Scripture to fit your own theology, when Paul has already said we "establish, confirm, unhold" the "law", which is the TORAH. Jesus and Paul agree that it remains forever. For myself, I will establish, confirm and uphold the righteous standard of a holy God. You can continue in your anti-Torah doctrine and misunderstanding if you choose to by ignoring all that God has done in the past and believing that it has no relevance for the future. In the day of judgment, I would rather be upholding the whole Word of God than disposing of any I will not uphold, calling it Jewish.

I see no further reason for discussion.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
May 9th 2009, 06:12 PM
I am "dead with Christ" because believing in Him, I have been baptized into Christ, dead to my old life of sin, buried with Him in baptism, raised to walk in newness of life by the power of the Holy Spirit. This "newness" of life is tied to the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-33. You read and interpret the Scripture to fit your own theology, when Paul has already said we "establish, confirm, unhold" the "law". For myself, I will establish, confirm and uphold the righteous standard of a holy God. You can continue in your anti-Torah doctrine and misunderstanding if you choose to by ignoring all that God has done in the past and believing that it has no relevance for the future.

I see no further reason for discussion.

Blessings,
BHS

Can you explain why what Paul has said is anti Torah?

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. Rom 7:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Pauls says that we are dead to the law by the body of Christ whom we say we are dead with, so is Pauls doctrine wrong?

Should we not Follow Pauls teachings?

Which law does Paul say he establishes?

Firstfruits

Teke
May 9th 2009, 07:46 PM
This "newness" of life is tied to the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-33. You read and interpret the Scripture to fit your own theology, when Paul has already said we "establish, confirm, unhold" the "law", which is the TORAH.

What is established is finished. That is what established means. The OT/Torah, is completely established/finished. What happens next is "recapitulation".

Even first century Jews understood this.

In peace,
Eve

Firstfruits
May 10th 2009, 10:44 AM
I am "dead with Christ" because believing in Him, I have been baptized into Christ, dead to my old life of sin, buried with Him in baptism, raised to walk in newness of life by the power of the Holy Spirit. This "newness" of life is tied to the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-33. You read and interpret the Scripture to fit your own theology, when Paul has already said we "establish, confirm, unhold" the "law", which is the TORAH. Jesus and Paul agree that it remains forever. For myself, I will establish, confirm and uphold the righteous standard of a holy God. You can continue in your anti-Torah doctrine and misunderstanding if you choose to by ignoring all that God has done in the past and believing that it has no relevance for the future. In the day of judgment, I would rather be upholding the whole Word of God than disposing of any I will not uphold, calling it Jewish.

I see no further reason for discussion.

Blessings,
BHS

It is not the law of works that is established, but the law of faith.

Rom 3:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Gal 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 11th 2009, 01:05 PM
Firstfruits, I do not think it good to argue "law". The only basic understanding that needs to be met, is that there is no dualism in/with God.

What I mean by that, is, if we continue to use such terms, as in this case, law, we are only furthering the idea of dualism. Such an idealism was opposed by Jesus and Paul in scripture. With Jesus, we see this when He said, "none is good", meaning there is no such distinction. Paul said it as well, when he said, "in me dwelleth no good thing".

So while obedience is a noble thing in our mind, it is simpy more of our pride as exampled by the fall. And this would be my guess as to BHS's view, that being that our sinful state is due to disobedience causing the fall. Which is even arrogant for me to say such, in relation to God. Him being what we assume to be the ultimate good. Such daulism is of pagan philosophy.

Pro 23:6 Eat thou not the bread of [him that hath] an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:

Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart [is] not with thee.

Pro 23:8 The morsel [which] thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.

The only way to cast off such dualism, is to confess that we are vile no matter what, in comparison to God. And thereby not continue in that which causes such falleness in mankind.
Such is the nature of the concept we understand as recapitulation.

Firstfruits
May 11th 2009, 01:29 PM
Firstfruits, I do not think it good to argue "law". The only basic understanding that needs to be met, is that there is no dualism in/with God.

What I mean by that, is, if we continue to use such terms, as in this case, law, we are only furthering the idea of dualism. Such an idealism was opposed by Jesus and Paul in scripture. With Jesus, we see this when He said, "none is good", meaning there is no such distinction. Paul said it as well, when he said, "in me dwelleth no good thing".

So while obedience is a noble thing in our mind, it is simpy more of our pride as exampled by the fall. And this would be my guess as to BHS's view, that being that our sinful state is due to disobedience causing the fall. Which is even arrogant for me to say such, in relation to God. Him being what we assume to be the ultimate good. Such daulism is of pagan philosophy.

Pro 23:6 Eat thou not the bread of [him that hath] an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:

Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart [is] not with thee.

Pro 23:8 The morsel [which] thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.

The only way to cast off such dualism, is to confess that we are vile no matter what, in comparison to God. And thereby not continue in that which causes such falleness in mankind.
Such is the nature of the concept we understand as recapitulation.

Thanks Teke,

I agree with you, however scripture like this are not readily accepted.

Rom 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 11th 2009, 02:09 PM
Thanks Teke,

I agree with you, however scripture like this are not readily accepted.

Rom 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

God bless you!

Fiorstfruits

Indeed, there is much that is hard to accept because our hearts are hard. And so to your scripture, more scripture replies. :)

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In peace,
Eve

Firstfruits
May 11th 2009, 02:21 PM
Indeed, there is much that is hard to accept because our hearts are hard. And so to your scripture, more scripture replies. :)

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In peace,
Eve

It is hard to see how the following scripture does not show that Christ is dead to the law or obligated to it;

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

I suppose that if Christ is not dead to the law then how can it be accepted that we too are free or dead to the law?

Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

God bless you Eve!!!!!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 11th 2009, 02:53 PM
It is hard to see how the following scripture does not show that Christ is dead to the law or obligated to it;

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

I suppose that if Christ is not dead to the law then how can it be accepted that we too are free or dead to the law?

Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

God bless you Eve!!!!!

Firstfruits

Paul uses such examples or models to relate a spiritual truth to us. He plainly says in Romans 3:28, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the law".

From such a statement, I would conclude that the Apostles, which includes Paul, were firm in their conviction that no one could be justified by the law.

However, I do not believe this is what BHS and others believe. Rather they use their faith with the law. And believe it is just/ok to do so.

What I say about that is that it will produce a dualism in their theology (study/understanding of God). Though they may not realize it. It will happen because something has been declared/judged good by them. And as I've said, there is not good judgment with us. That is what needs to be confessed and repented of. And that can be a long road for many.

All things in heaven and earth are gathered in Christ. Meaning He is the center or pinnacle of all things. And there is no law in heaven. So there is no gathering of law. Least I've never read of such in scripture.

In peace,
Eve

Firstfruits
May 11th 2009, 03:12 PM
Paul uses such examples or models to relate a spiritual truth to us. He plainly says in Romans 3:28, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the law".

From such a statement, I would conclude that the Apostles, which includes Paul, were firm in their conviction that no one could be justified by the law.

However, I do not believe this is what BHS and others believe. Rather they use their faith with the law. And believe it is just/ok to do so.

What I say about that is that it will produce a dualism in their theology (study/understanding of God). Though they may not realize it. It will happen because something has been declared/judged good by them. And as I've said, there is not good judgment with us. That is what needs to be confessed and repented of. And that can be a long road for many.

All things in heaven and earth are gathered in Christ. Meaning He is the center or pinnacle of all things. And there is no law in heaven. So there is no gathering of law. Least I've never read of such in scripture.

In peace,
Eve

Paul does say that the law is good, but he also say that the law is not of faith. So as you say he makes it clear as to where he stands when it comes to the law and faith.

Rom 7:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Gal 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Rom 1:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Heb 10:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

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