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Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:37 AM
When we die do we retain our nationality?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 11:59 AM
When we die do we retain our nationality?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Even the living in Christ should be new creations now................

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:14 PM
Even the living in Christ should be new creations now................

Thanks Manichunter,

If the dead and even the living in Christ should be new creations, what therefore does it mean to be a new creation?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:46 PM
Thanks Manichunter,

If the dead and even the living in Christ should be new creations, what therefore does it mean to be a new creation?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Old things we considered important in our carnality become dead to us (natural nationality versus spiritual reality). A believer becomes a citizen of a new country. God does not allow dual citizenship. You are either of the world or the kingdom of God.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 12:53 PM
Old things we considered important in our carnality become dead to us (natural nationality versus spiritual reality). A believer becomes a citizen of a new country. God does not allow dual citizenship. You are either of the world or the kingdom of God.

Thanks Manichunter,

If we are in Christ and are still alive are we not still of the world, do we not retain our nationality, even though we are in Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:04 PM
Thanks Manichunter,

If we are in Christ and are still alive are we not still of the world, do we not retain our nationality, even though we are in Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I know it is hard to see a different reality concerning our position in the world and kingdom. Especially with me being a former soldier and current cop. However, I am in the world, but no longer of the world as Scripture says. This means my loyalty to the kingdom supersedes all others. My function in the kindgom supersedes all others. My secular world gets unified with my kindgom life, to include my employment and relationships.

It does not mean that I am not about defending my property and welfare, which includes protecting anything that threatens my former homeland I still physically abide in.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:18 PM
I know it is hard to see a different reality concerning our position in the world and kingdom. Especially with me being a former soldier and current cop. However, I am in the world, but no longer of the world as Scripture says. This means my loyalty to the kingdom supersedes all others. My function in the kindgom supersedes all others. My secular world gets unified with my kindgom life, to include my employment and relationships.

It does not mean that I am not about defending my property and welfare, which includes protecting anything that threatens my former homeland I still physically abide in.

Thanks Manichunter,

So when we are in Christ we become new creatures, do we therefore lose our former identities?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

matthew7and1
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:20 PM
Thanks Manichunter,

So when we are in Christ we become new creatures, do we therefore lose our former identities?

God bless you!

Firstfruits
yes because the only identity that matters is who we are in christ.

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:22 PM
No, I believe the dead do not retain their nationality for two reasons.

1) What will they need it for?
2) What about those who have died who's nations no longer exist, or no longer will exist in the near and distant future?

Vhayes
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:22 PM
I can meet a Peruvian believer and feel much closer to them instantly than I do to an unbelieving American neighbor.

Do the dead retain their nationality? I don't know for certain but I doubt it. We will indeed at that point become new creatures - body and soul a child of the Almighty!
V

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:29 PM
yes because the only identity that matters is who we are in christ.

Thanks Tayariswife,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:41 PM
No, I believe the dead do not retain their nationality for two reasons.

1) What will they need it for?
2) What about those who have died who's nations no longer exist, or no longer will exist in the near and distant future?

Thanks Hisleast,

Would that therefore apply to those who are alive but dead in Christ?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:42 PM
I can meet a Peruvian believer and feel much closer to them instantly than I do to an unbelieving American neighbor.

Do the dead retain their nationality? I don't know for certain but I doubt it. We will indeed at that point become new creatures - body and soul a child of the Almighty!
V

Thank you VHays,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 01:52 PM
Would that therefore apply to those who are alive but dead in Christ?


I have no idea what that means. Can we just speak plainly?

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:14 PM
I have no idea what that means. Can we just speak plainly?

Sorry I thought that was :blush:. When we come to Christ we become dead with him.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

So would what you have said apply?

No, I believe the dead do not retain their nationality for two reasons.
1) What will they need it for?
2) What about those who have died who's nations no longer exist, or no longer will exist in the near and distant future?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:19 PM
Sorry I thought that was :blush:. When we come to Christ we become dead with him.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

So would what you have said apply?

No, I believe the dead do not retain their nationality for two reasons.
1) What will they need it for?
2) What about those who have died who's nations no longer exist, or no longer will exist in the near and distant future?


By plainly, I mean "actual state", not metaphorical or allegorical state. Example. Am I alive? Of course I am because I'm typing this. Is my non-Christian co-worker alive? Yes, because he's also typing something on his laptop. We're both alive. He's a citizen of the United States of America. I'm a citizen of Canada.

I have no idea why this affiliation would carry forward into the afterlife, especially if we were having this discussion 1900 years ago in Rome, a nation which no longer exists.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 02:42 PM
By plainly, I mean "actual state", not metaphorical or allegorical state. Example. Am I alive? Of course I am because I'm typing this. Is my non-Christian co-worker alive? Yes, because he's also typing something on his laptop. We're both alive. He's a citizen of the United States of America. I'm a citizen of Canada.

I have no idea why this affiliation would carry forward into the afterlife, especially if we were having this discussion 1900 years ago in Rome, a nation which no longer exists.

Thanks Hisleast,

I was also speaking of those in Christ that are new creatures even though not physically dead.

Rom 6:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

I hope that is understandable.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:00 PM
Thanks Hisleast,

I was also speaking of those in Christ that are new creatures even though not physically dead.

Rom 6:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

I hope that is understandable.

Sorry... I'm just extra thick today. What's the question?

Though my answer will probably be the same: there's no reason to believe our national citizenship and affiliations will factor at all into the hereafter.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:10 PM
Sorry... I'm just extra thick today. What's the question?

Though my answer will probably be the same: there's no reason to believe our national citizenship and affiliations will factor at all into the hereafter.

Being dead with Christ does not have to mean we are physically dead, just dead with Christ.

May be I should ask what it means to be dead in Christ, in regards to the following scriptures?

Rom 6:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

2 Tim 2:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

Understanding what it means to be dead with Christ may help understand my question.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:12 PM
Look... we're either alive or dead. Forget all this "with" or "in" stuff. I'm alive, Christian, and in possession of Canadian citizenship. Why would my Canadian citizenship (nationality if you will) be of any use to anyone in the hereafter?

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:24 PM
Look... we're either alive or dead. Forget all this "with" or "in" stuff. I'm alive, Christian, and in possession of Canadian citizenship. Why would my Canadian citizenship (nationality if you will) be of any use to anyone in the hereafter?

How would you explain the following?

Rom 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 03:33 PM
How would you explain the following?

Rom 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I'm not dead (because I'm typing). My body is not dead (because its typing). I'm not buried alive because I can get up and walk over to the coffee machine. Therefore these passages are metaphorical.

I have no idea how this relates to the original question though.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:41 PM
I'm not dead (because I'm typing). My body is not dead (because its typing). I'm not buried alive because I can get up and walk over to the coffee machine. Therefore these passages are metaphorical.

I have no idea how this relates to the original question though.

If we are metaphoricaly dead in Christ we would therefore have no need for a nationality with regars to the following;

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:01 PM
If we are metaphoricaly dead in Christ we would therefore have no need for a nationality with regars to the following;

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


We don't live in a metaphorical world. We live in an all too real world. We use metaphor to explain things, not to literally describe them. If I have no need for nationality while I'm alive, I can't work, and can't feed my family.

The two verses quoted above is telling us that Christians are not divided by their nationality within Christendom. Its to stop infighting and segregation, or the crazy idea that only (insert nationality here) can be Christian. That doesn't take away their nationality while they're alive though. They're still ACTUALLY Greek, Jewish, Scythian, whatever.

daughter
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:09 PM
We're citizens of heaven, currently in exile on the earth, making our way back home. As I'm now a citizen of heaven, I'm sure that nationality won't change when I get there.

But as for my Irishness... I'm not sure if that will matter to me when this life is over. It matters far less to me now than it used to.

Scripture does say that members of all tribes and nations will come to Christ. Whether we retain that in the hereafter or not, I don't know. The most important thing is that we're members of His Kingdom... I do know that this will remain.

John146
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:12 PM
Thanks Manichunter,

If we are in Christ and are still alive are we not still of the world, do we not retain our nationality, even though we are in Christ?

God bless you!

FirstfruitsNo. You are either in Christ or of the world. You can't be both. Also, in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28, Acts 15:7-9, Col 3:11, Rom 10:12).

John 15
18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

1 John 2
15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

John 17
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:37 PM
We don't live in a metaphorical world. We live in an all too real world. We use metaphor to explain things, not to literally describe them. If I have no need for nationality while I'm alive, I can't work, and can't feed my family.

The two verses quoted above is telling us that Christians are not divided by their nationality within Christendom. Its to stop infighting and segregation, or the crazy idea that only (insert nationality here) can be Christian. That doesn't take away their nationality while they're alive though. They're still ACTUALLY Greek, Jewish, Scythian, whatever.

Are we new creatures in Christ and if so are we the same as what we were before?

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

We are either the same or we we are unchanged which is it?

Do you not believe that you are dead in Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:44 PM
No. You are either in Christ or of the world. You can't be both. Also, in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28, Acts 15:7-9, Col 3:11, Rom 10:12).

John 15
18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

1 John 2
15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

John 17
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Thanks John146,

So we who are in Christ are not of this world, and would therefore not retain our nationality, would that be right?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:59 PM
Are we new creatures in Christ and if so are we the same as what we were before?

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

We are either the same or we we are unchanged which is it?

Do you not believe that you are dead in Christ?

Whatever "dead in Christ" means. It certainly doesn't mean I'm dead dead. Because I'm sitting here typing. If the text says "DEAD" and you and I are alive, then its strictly metaphorical.

Am I changed? Yes. Does that take away my Canadian citizenship? Not according to the Canadian government it doesn't. What happens to my Canadian citizenship when I'm dead? It ceases. Its a concept that only mattered during life.

To bring it all back to the main question:
1) Why would my nationality matter in the afterlife?
2) What happens to people of nations that no longer exist?

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:16 PM
Whatever "dead in Christ" means. It certainly doesn't mean I'm dead dead. Because I'm sitting here typing. If the text says "DEAD" and you and I are alive, then its strictly metaphorical.

Am I changed? Yes. Does that take away my Canadian citizenship? Not according to the Canadian government it doesn't. What happens to my Canadian citizenship when I'm dead? It ceases. Its a concept that only mattered during life.

To bring it all back to the main question:
1) Why would my nationality matter in the afterlife?
2) What happens to people of nations that no longer exist?

How then do you explain these scriptures concering those in Christ?

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Thanks and God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:17 PM
How then do you explain these scriptures concering those in Christ?

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.



Post 24
(http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2053018&postcount=24)
This is all looking suspiciously like a statement in the disguise of a question. Is this so?

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:29 PM
Post 24
(http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2053018&postcount=24)
This is all looking suspiciously like a statement in the disguise of a question. Is this so?

It is just as it is unless you do not believe that when we are in Christ we are dead with him, and the fact that Jesus is not of this earth, so can we be?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:57 PM
It is just as it is unless you do not believe that when we are in Christ we are dead with him, and the fact that Jesus is not of this earth, so can we be?



Its a metaphor. Put away all the "in Christ" and "with Christ" stuff and what are you doing right now? Sitting. Breathing. Reading. Thinking. BEING ALIVE. Because you're alive, there's certain things that come with that, one of which is your nationality. Did your country rescind your nationality once you became a Christian? Did they place you and all your ancestors in their mothers' wombs and erase your heritage? No on all accounts. Therefore, while you're alive, you have a nationality.

When you're dead though (and to be clear lets say: you aren't breathing, you're in a state of decay, and there's absolutely no brain activity), your nationality is irrelevant, which I believe answers your original question.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 06:45 AM
Its a metaphor. Put away all the "in Christ" and "with Christ" stuff and what are you doing right now? Sitting. Breathing. Reading. Thinking. BEING ALIVE. Because you're alive, there's certain things that come with that, one of which is your nationality. Did your country rescind your nationality once you became a Christian? Did they place you and all your ancestors in their mothers' wombs and erase your heritage? No on all accounts. Therefore, while you're alive, you have a nationality.

When you're dead though (and to be clear lets say: you aren't breathing, you're in a state of decay, and there's absolutely no brain activity), your nationality is irrelevant, which I believe answers your original question.

So if we accept all the 'in Christ' and with Christ' stuff as it is written, as we cannot as or take away from the word of God, when we put on Christ do we not put on the new man and do we not put off the old man?

Are you are are you not in Christ?

Are you or are you not with Christ?

Are you or are you not a new creature in Christ?

Are you born of the Spirit or are you still of the world, still of the flesh?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 24th 2009, 01:11 PM
So if we accept all the 'in Christ' and with Christ' stuff as it is written, as we cannot as or take away from the word of God, when we put on Christ do we not put on the new man and do we not put off the old man?
Metaphorically yes. This whole thing reminds me of a discussion Jesus had with one Nicodemus.

John 3: 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Nicodemus was thinking literal physical, not spiritual. Its the same thing with Nationality. In the hereafter, I have no nationality except maybe the Kingdom of God, but that's spiritual. And just like Nicodemus my spiritual state has nothing to do with actually changing my nationality. I can change my nationality no more than I can change the fact I came screaming into this world from my mother's birth canal.


Are you are are you not in Christ?
Are you or are you not with Christ?
Not sure what the difference between these is, but yeah.


Are you or are you not a new creature in Christ?
Metaphorically, spiritually, yes.


Are you born of the Spirit or are you still of the world, still of the flesh?
Well since I still have to sleep, still have to eat, can bleed, can get sick, age, and experience the wide range of human emotion, I'd say I have a fleshy body, but I'm "born of the spirit". But that's a metaphor.

But what do any of these questions have to do with your original post? Are you trying to connect the metaphoric / spiritual truths about the kingdom and spirit to the literal realities of our citizenships and nationalities? If so, how?

So FF, when I first asked "Can we speak plainly", part of it was about this answers in the form of a question. Its clear you want to make a point, so why not just state your point?

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 01:19 PM
Metaphorically yes. This whole thing reminds me of a discussion Jesus had with one Nicodemus.

John 3: 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Nicodemus was thinking literal physical, not spiritual. Its the same thing with Nationality. In the hereafter, I have no nationality except maybe the Kingdom of God, but that's spiritual. And just like Nicodemus my spiritual state has nothing to do with actually changing my nationality. I can change my nationality no more than I can change the fact I came screaming into this world from my mother's birth canal.


Not sure what the difference between these is, but yeah.


Metaphorically, spiritually, yes.


Well since I still have to sleep, still have to eat, can bleed, can get sick, age, and experience the wide range of human emotion, I'd say I have a fleshy body, but I'm "born of the spirit". But that's a metaphor.

But what do any of these questions have to do with your original post? Are you trying to connect the metaphoric / spiritual truths about the kingdom and spirit to the literal realities of our citizenships and nationalities? If so, how?

So FF, when I first asked "Can we speak plainly", part of it was about this answers in the form of a question. Its clear you want to make a point, so why not just state your point?

Is salvation only metaphoric, as you have said you are a new creature in Christ but metaphorically?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 24th 2009, 01:47 PM
Is salvation only metaphoric, as you have said you are a new creature in Christ but metaphorically?

No, of course salvation isn't metaphoric. Why would you even ask that?!

But am I a literal new creature? Do I have literally new DNA? Did I crawl back up into my mother's birth canal and get reborn (like Nicodemus asked)? Do I look different? Does my body work differently? Has my material composition changed in any manner? The answer to all these questions is no. Therefore, when the apostles describe what being Christian is about, they describe it metaphorically as being like a brand new creation.

Again, I don't understand how the new question relates back to your original one. It feels suspiciously like you're trying to make a point by asking questions towards it. I ask again for plain speaking and that you just state it. What are you trying to convince us of?

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 02:01 PM
No, of course salvation isn't metaphoric. Why would you even ask that?!

But am I a literal new creature? Do I have literally new DNA? Did I crawl back up into my mother's birth canal and get reborn (like Nicodemus asked)? Do I look different? Does my body work differently? Has my material composition changed in any manner? The answer to all these questions is no. Therefore, when the apostles describe what being Christian is about, they describe it metaphorically as being like a brand new creation.

Again, I don't understand how the new question relates back to your original one. It feels suspiciously like you're trying to make a point by asking questions towards it. I ask again for plain speaking and that you just state it. What are you trying to convince us of?

With regards to the folowing is there not a difference between being of the flesh and being of the Spirit?

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

According to what is written, are you flesh or spirit?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 24th 2009, 02:06 PM
According to what is written, are you flesh or spirit?
According to the fact that I've breathed, blinked, slept, cut myself shaving, ate, urinated, and pushed through a revolving door in the last 4 hours, I would say that whatever my spiritual state, I still live in a flesh body. Which has exactly what to do with your original question? Could you state it plainly this time instead of asking another question?

And AGAIN....

Again, I don't understand how the new question relates back to your original one. It feels suspiciously like you're trying to make a point by asking questions towards it. I ask again for plain speaking and that you just state it. What are you trying to convince us of?
15 characters and such

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 02:19 PM
According to the fact that I've breathed, blinked, slept, cut myself shaving, ate, urinated, and pushed through a revolving door in the last 4 hours, I would say that whatever my spiritual state, I still live in a flesh body. Which has exactly what to do with your original question? Could you state it plainly this time instead of asking another question?

And AGAIN....

15 characters and such

Knowing that the gospel that Paul has given us is from Christ, do you not accept the following?

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 24th 2009, 02:31 PM
Knowing that the gospel that Paul has given us is from Christ, do you not accept the following?

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

FF,

I accept Paul's teaching. But I also can not deny the reality that I live in a body of flesh. I'm not literally a spirit unbound by the physical. "I" am in a physical fleshly body. Nobody can deny this. Your second red and bolded passage cuts right to the matter: "SPIRITUALLY MINDED".

Now, I'm going to ask you for I think the FOURTH time...

Again, I don't understand how the new question relates back to your original one. It feels suspiciously like you're trying to make a point by asking questions towards it. I ask again for plain speaking and that you just state it. What are you trying to convince us of?

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 02:53 PM
FF,

I accept Paul's teaching. But I also can not deny the reality that I live in a body of flesh. I'm not literally a spirit unbound by the physical. "I" am in a physical fleshly body. Nobody can deny this. Your second red and bolded passage cuts right to the matter: "SPIRITUALLY MINDED".

Now, I'm going to ask you for I think the FOURTH time...

Again, I don't understand how the new question relates back to your original one. It feels suspiciously like you're trying to make a point by asking questions towards it. I ask again for plain speaking and that you just state it. What are you trying to convince us of?




If you do not accept that you are dead in Christ then no matter what is written it will not mean anything no matter how plain the scriptures given have been.

If you do not accept the words of Christ as given by paul then there is not much I can say.

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 24th 2009, 03:04 PM
If you do not accept that you are dead in Christ then no matter what is written it will not mean anything no matter how plain the scriptures given have been.
Where have you tried to explain ANYTHING? All I see is questions.
I don't know how many different ways I can say I believe it, but it has little to do with the physical matter of my body. Its a spiritual lesson. Further, I still don't know how this relates to your original post. That's the danger of not stating your hypothesis directly, but making people play the puppet and dance there via a series of directed questions.


If you do not accept the words of Christ as given by paul then there is not much I can say.

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Jesus stated plainly to Nicodemus that one must be "born again". Nicodemus tried to interpret that literally too. He was shocked at the idea of climbing back up into his mother and being birthed into the world again. However, you, me, and every kid in Sunday school knows Jesus was talking about spiritual matters.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 03:08 PM
Where have you tried to explain ANYTHING? All I see is questions.
I don't know how many different ways I can say I believe it, but it has little to do with the physical matter of my body. Its a spiritual lesson. Further, I still don't know how this relates to your original post. That's the danger of not stating your hypothesis directly, but making people play the puppet and dance there via a series of directed questions.



Jesus stated plainly to Nicodemus that one must be "born again". Nicodemus tried to interpret that literally too. He was shocked at the idea of climbing back up into his mother and being birthed into the world again. However, you, me, and every kid in Sunday school knows Jesus was talking about spiritual matters.

Lets try it another way, are you metaphorically dead with Christ?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 24th 2009, 03:17 PM
Lets try it another way, are you metaphorically dead with Christ?

I believe there is another, better way. What is your hypothesis, and what observations do you use to support it?

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 05:54 PM
I believe there is another, better way. What is your hypothesis, and what observations do you use to support it?

These are my observations;

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

What do you see?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 24th 2009, 06:05 PM
These are my observations;

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

What do you see?

What is your hypothesis? What are you trying to demonstrate?

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 06:19 PM
What is your hypothesis? What are you trying to demonstrate?

I am not trying to demonstrate anything other than that which is written that we who are in Christ are dead with him. This means that by living in newness of life we are no longer as we were before we came to Christ our nationality has changed to those of Christ, as in the scripture.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Do you understand what I am saying?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 24th 2009, 06:22 PM
I am not trying to demonstrate anything other than that which is written that we who are in Christ are dead with him. This means that by living in newness of life we are no longer as we were before we came to Christ our nationality has changed to those of Christ, as in the scripture.
FINALLY!! Thank you.


Do you understand what I am saying?
Yes, I understand. No, I do not agree. I didn't stop being a Canadian citizen when I came to Christ. Sure I'm a member of His church, and maybe some day I'll be part of His kingdom, and those come first and foremost. But my heritage isn't something that can be erased. I'm Canadian because my parents are Canadian. That nationality doesn't just "go away" ... until I stop living. Once I die (in the literal physical sense) my nationality will be irrelevant.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 06:38 PM
FINALLY!! Thank you.


Yes, I understand. No, I do not agree. I didn't stop being a Canadian citizen when I came to Christ. Sure I'm a member of His church, and maybe some day I'll be part of His kingdom, and those come first and foremost. But my heritage isn't something that can be erased. I'm Canadian because my parents are Canadian. That nationality doesn't just "go away" ... until I stop living. Once I die (in the literal physical sense) my nationality will be irrelevant.

Now that you are in Christ have you put off the old man and put on the new man, do you live according to Christ?

Rom 6:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Are you cucified with him?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 24th 2009, 06:58 PM
Now that you are in Christ have you put off the old man and put on the new man, do you live according to Christ?

Rom 6:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Are you cucified with him?

Do I live according to Christ? Yes (literally) as best as I know how.
Have I "put off the old man"? Yes, metaphorically.
Am I crucified with him? Yes, metaphorically.

Does any of this have anything to do with my nationality while I'm alive? No, literally.

John146
Apr 24th 2009, 08:38 PM
Thanks John146,

So we who are in Christ are not of this world, and would therefore not retain our nationality, would that be right?

God bless you!

FirstfruitsThat's how I understand it. I mean, for now, I'm still an American while I'm still alive because this is where I live. But I'm not of the world, I'm of God. In eternity, though, I will just be a follower of Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. One's race or nationality is not important in Christ so I see no reason why one would maintain their earthly nationality in eternity.

1 Cor 12:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2009, 01:17 PM
Do I live according to Christ? Yes (literally) as best as I know how.
Have I "put off the old man"? Yes, metaphorically.
Am I crucified with him? Yes, metaphorically.

Does any of this have anything to do with my nationality while I'm alive? No, literally.

Does this apply to those in Christ?

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 25th 2009, 11:31 PM
Does this apply to those in Christ?
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28)

Do you have another point to make?

Dani H
Apr 26th 2009, 02:38 AM
When we die do we retain our nationality?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

My citizenship is in heaven.

So ... yes.

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2009, 10:59 AM
Do you have another point to make?

As you have not answered the question, how can I make a point?

Does this apply to those in Christ?

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

The discussion is nationality for the dead, so do you agree with what is written, that is if you are born again, meaning you are dead to the world and alive in Christ.


Have you been quickened from the dead?

1 Cor 15:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Eph 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)


God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 26th 2009, 07:51 PM
As you have not answered the question, how can I make a point?
EASY. You state the point you're trying to make and provide citations. Something like " Based on, X, Y, and Z, I believe that ________ "
Its what I've been requesting since a few pages ago. Plain speaking instead of being spun in circles with more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more questions in the hopes I stumble upon what you're actually trying to say. But ok... I'll try this one more time....



Does this apply to those in Christ?

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Yes, spiritually.


The discussion is nationality for the dead, so do you agree with what is written, that is if you are born again, meaning you are dead to the world and alive in Christ.
Yes, spiritually.


Have you been quickened from the dead?

1 Cor 15:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Eph 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,
Yes, spiritually.

Now, bringing this (again) back to the original question. What do all these metaphorical / spiritual things have to do with my actual physical nationality? Absolutely squat.

HisLeast
Apr 26th 2009, 07:52 PM
My citizenship is in heaven.

So you don't live or work anywhere?

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2009, 10:11 PM
EASY. You state the point you're trying to make and provide citations. Something like " Based on, X, Y, and Z, I believe that ________ "
Its what I've been requesting since a few pages ago. Plain speaking instead of being spun in circles with more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more questions in the hopes I stumble upon what you're actually trying to say. But ok... I'll try this one more time....


Yes, spiritually.


Yes, spiritually.


Yes, spiritually.

Now, bringing this (again) back to the original question. What do all these metaphorical / spiritual things have to do with my actual physical nationality? Absolutely squat.

Thanks for answering the question, what you said covers both whether spiritual or physical.

But are we not to be spiritual minded and not carnal?

Rom 8:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 26th 2009, 10:28 PM
Identifying the spiritual as spiritual doesn't make one carnal minded.

Consider this: The day you became a Christian, did your country renounce your citizenship? No? Well then you're literally, physically of the same nationality that you were before you accepted Christ. No amount of being "spiritually minded" changes that. Its just who you are.

kenramse
Apr 27th 2009, 02:51 AM
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


In answer to your question "Do the dead retain their nationality?" The scripture reference that I provided is part of what Peter was expounding to Christians, most of who were of Jewish heritage who were wondering the same thing.

Christians who were (are) Jewish have a distinct understanding of their "national heritage" because when one becomes a Christian they become ostracized by even their family, cut off and treated as dead. The same occurs in Islam, and is even more explicitly expressed because under Islam, if you forsake Allah in this way you are to be executed. Many have died for Christ throughout the world simply by becoming a believer.

Several years ago, I was in Malaysia, and visited a "Local Church", one that had been established by Watchman Nee even years before. It had a distinctively Chinese membership,(fellowship?) as when on the day that I visited there were only one or two people that were from the Islamic faith and who had converted to Christianity, while there were nearly 100 Chinese people present.

I asked one of the Chinese brethren why there were so few Malaysian believers and he spoke to me what it meant to them and what was the experience of these believers. In whispered tones he indicated that there were few Malaysian Christians, at least those that were outspoken enough to proclaim themselves Christians because the penalty to do so was death. Not only that but the penalty to proseletyze and evangelize to these people was also punishable by death. Interestingly, the one thing that was most offensive and which sealed the doom of anyone that would claim to be a Christian was baptism. There was not a great deal made of a Malaysian attending a Chinese Christian gathering or even if a Malaysian were to speak when there but if a Malaysian were to be baptised...

So, when you die, God is not going to consider if you are an American, a Chinese, an Australian, a Cuban or an Israelite, or any other nationality. He will consider that you were and are one of his "Chosen People, one of His HOLY Nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light"

You yourself will not be concerned that you are of Canadian descent or Japanese or German. You will be part of a great multitude!

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 06:30 AM
Identifying the spiritual as spiritual doesn't make one carnal minded.

Consider this: The day you became a Christian, did your country renounce your citizenship? No? Well then you're literally, physically of the same nationality that you were before you accepted Christ. No amount of being "spiritually minded" changes that. Its just who you are.

If that were the case we could not agree with the following statement unless we were spiritualy minded.

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

What identifies a Jew or a Gentile that they lose when they come to Christ?

Remember we are not speaking according to the flesh.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 06:36 AM
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


In answer to your question "Do the dead retain their nationality?" The scripture reference that I provided is part of what Peter was expounding to Christians, most of who were of Jewish heritage who were wondering the same thing.

Christians who were (are) Jewish have a distinct understanding of their "national heritage" because when one becomes a Christian they become ostracized by even their family, cut off and treated as dead. The same occurs in Islam, and is even more explicitly expressed because under Islam, if you forsake Allah in this way you are to be executed. Many have died for Christ throughout the world simply by becoming a believer.

Several years ago, I was in Malaysia, and visited a "Local Church", one that had been established by Watchman Nee even years before. It had a distinctively Chinese membership,(fellowship?) as when on the day that I visited there were only one or two people that were from the Islamic faith and who had converted to Christianity, while there were nearly 100 Chinese people present.

I asked one of the Chinese brethren why there were so few Malaysian believers and he spoke to me what it meant to them and what was the experience of these believers. In whispered tones he indicated that there were few Malaysian Christians, at least those that were outspoken enough to proclaim themselves Christians because the penalty to do so was death. Not only that but the penalty to proseletyze and evangelize to these people was also punishable by death. Interestingly, the one thing that was most offensive and which sealed the doom of anyone that would claim to be a Christian was baptism. There was not a great deal made of a Malaysian attending a Chinese Christian gathering or even if a Malaysian were to speak when there but if a Malaysian were to be baptised...

So, when you die, God is not going to consider if you are an American, a Chinese, an Australian, a Cuban or an Israelite, or any other nationality. He will consider that you were and are one of his "Chosen People, one of His HOLY Nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light"

You yourself will not be concerned that you are of Canadian descent or Japanese or German. You will be part of a great multitude!

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Thank you Kenramse,

With regards to the scripture given, we in Christ are already part of the multitude as we are Gods chosen people.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 27th 2009, 12:56 PM
If that were the case we could not agree with the following statement unless we were spiritualy minded.

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Isn't that what I've been saying since page 2? These verses are speaking spiritually. If its your position that they are speaking literally / physically, then how do you account for neither of us losing our nationalities. Did we crawl back into the womb (literally) and get born to a different nation? Did our countries rescind our citizenship? Nope.


What identifies a Jew or a Gentile that they lose when they come to Christ?
Well, they certainly don't lose something literal or physical. Did they cease being genetically Jew, Greek, Roman, whatever? No. Did they lose their citizenship in any of these nations? No. So if we really ARE "not speaking in the flesh", then this is a spiritual lesson. SPIRITUALLY, there is no Jew or Gentile. SPIRITUALLY there is no nationality.

Therefore, in answer to your original question, "no", you don't retain your nationality when you die.

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 01:11 PM
Isn't that what I've been saying since page 2? These verses are speaking spiritually. If its your position that they are speaking literally / physically, then how do you account for neither of us losing our nationalities. Did we crawl back into the womb (literally) and get born to a different nation? Did our countries rescind our citizenship? Nope.


Well, they certainly don't lose something literal or physical. Did they cease being genetically Jew, Greek, Roman, whatever? No. Did they lose their citizenship in any of these nations? No. So if we really ARE "not speaking in the flesh", then this is a spiritual lesson. SPIRITUALLY, there is no Jew or Gentile. SPIRITUALLY there is no nationality.

Therefore, in answer to your original question, "no", you don't retain your nationality when you die.

Spiritually the dead in Christ lose their nationality or the old man and we become new creatures, we put on a new identity that make us heavenly.

We are to think spiritually, but whether death physicaly or spritually the result is the same, a change of nationality.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 27th 2009, 01:30 PM
Spiritually the dead in Christ lose their nationality or the old man and we become new creatures, we put on a new identity that make us heavenly.

We are to think spiritually, but whether death physicaly or spritually the result is the same, a change of nationality.

No. A spiritual death does not rescind my Canadian citizenship, any more than it rescinds whatever nationality you are.

The test of this is easy:
1) Has your genetic make-up changed?
2) Can you still live in your country?
3) Can you still legally work in your country?
4) Does your country recognize you as a citizen?

If you can't answer "no" to each of those 4 questions, then your commitment to Christ has had no effect on your literal physical nationality.

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 01:40 PM
No. A spiritual death does not rescind my Canadian citizenship, any more than it rescinds whatever nationality you are.

The test of this is easy:
1) Has your genetic make-up changed?
2) Can you still live in your country?
3) Can you still legally work in your country?
4) Does your country recognize you as a citizen?

If you can't answer "no" to each of those 4 questions, then your commitment to Christ has had no effect on your literal physical nationality.

If I think carnally then the answer will be carnal, If I answer according to the Spirit then the following applies, unless we deny that which is written.

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Because of the spirit, we are Christs.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 27th 2009, 01:49 PM
If I think carnally then the answer will be carnal, If I answer according to the Spirit then the following applies, unless we deny that which is written

You can call it "thinking carnally" if you want. Its no less true than the spiritual truth in scriptures.

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 02:04 PM
You can call it "thinking carnally" if you want. Its no less true than the spiritual truth in scriptures.

There is a difference between being carnal minded and being spiritual minded;

Rom 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

This is the truth of the scriptures.

Jn 15:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Apr 27th 2009, 02:43 PM
There is a difference between being carnal minded and being spiritual minded;

Rom 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

<shrug> Its no less true though. Look to your own life since accepting Christ. Has your DNA changed? Are you still able to live in your country? Are you still able to work in your country? Does your country still consider you a citizen?

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 02:57 PM
<shrug> Its no less true though. Look to your own life since accepting Christ. Has your DNA changed? Are you still able to live in your country? Are you still able to work in your country? Does your country still consider you a citizen?

Physically we are the same but we are of the spirit, born of God, this world is not our home.

Christians and their beliefs are not accepted by all no matter what country we live in so it has been and will be until the end when we get home on the other side.

Heb 11:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

If you belong to this world then heaven is not your home.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

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