PDA

View Full Version : The Way and human reasoning



keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 05:34 PM
With so many comments about God's Torah commands, some of them nearing mocking God Himself, I would ask that we consider whether our responses are glorifying to our theological positions or glorifyiing to God.

Most Christians obey about 160 of God's commands. If I would list them most would be able to agree with them purely from humam reasoning. Most know the consequences of lying, bearing false witness, homosexual relations, etc. and those laws fit into our reasoning. Other laws are not so easy; some use human reasoning to defend their obedience to food laws, while others think that progressive human technology has made certain animals 'safer'. The reasons vary according to opinion, but I would ask that we ponder a deeper truth.

An important part of the explaination of any of God's Laws is that there is no explaination. Theres are statutes of Almighty God, and they do not necessarily need rationale. There is a certain amount of sacred arbitrariness to God's wisdom that we can not reach.

Think about this. Does it make sense that God's laws don't always make sense? If God always made sense to human wisdom, obedience would be predicated on our reasoning. In this case, our obedience to God is based primarily on the fact that His laws make sense to us.

This might work when taking advise from another human. You have a problem to deal with, and seek human counsil. You may reason that the advise makes sense and apply it to your situation. God is not our human advisor. He is the Holy King of the Universe with the right to make laws that we can't make sense of. He utterly transcends human reasoning. When God declares something, it is reason enough.

Indeed, scientists are baffled about the creation. They admit the combination and perfect alignment of matter, heat and energy is utterly inestimatable, that the chances are less than 1 with a lot of zeros after it. It doesn't really make sense that the universe exists at all, but we accept it as truth that God spoke it into being. The truth of eternal life goes far beyond our human reasoning, but we put all our trust in Messiah to grant it. Even the binding of Isaac stresses our reasoning sensabilities, but we accept the messianic implicatins and accpet it as truth on faith.

In summary, we readliy accept that which does not affect our immediate existance as truth, but do we accept those things that may alter our lifestyle or embarass us in front of our breathern as truth? Or do we add the weight of the burden to be set apart in these ways and the risk of emnity from friends and family on the back of our Saviour?

Mat 10:37
(37) "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

When we quit trying to figure out everything and simply agree to let God dictate the terms, we can serve Him in true obedience.

If we wait until we discover some reasonable explanation behind His laws before implementing them, we are not really obeyinhg Him, we are obeying human reasoning.

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 06:47 PM
With so many comments about God's Torah commands, some of them nearing mocking God Himself, I would ask that we consider whether our responses are glorifying to our theological positions or glorifyiing to God.

Most Christians obey about 160 of God's commands. If I would list them most would be able to agree with them purely from humam reasoning. Most know the consequences of lying, bearing false witness, homosexual relations, etc. and those laws fit into our reasoning. Other laws are not so easy; some use human reasoning to defend their obedience to food laws, while others think that progressive human technology has made certain animals 'safer'. The reasons vary according to opinion, but I would ask that we ponder a deeper truth.

An important part of the explaination of any of God's Laws is that there is no explaination. Theres are statutes of Almighty God, and they do not necessarily need rationale. There is a certain amount of sacred arbitrariness to God's wisdom that we can not reach.

Think about this. Does it make sense that God's laws don't always make sense? If God always made sense to human wisdom, obedience would be predicated on our reasoning. In this case, our obedience to God is based primarily on the fact that His laws make sense to us.

This might work when taking advise from another human. You have a problem to deal with, and seek human counsil. You may reason that the advise makes sense and apply it to your situation. God is not our human advisor. He is the Holy King of the Universe with the right to make laws that we can't make sense of. He utterly transcends human reasoning. When God declares something, it is reason enough.

Indeed, scientists are baffled about the creation. They admit the combination and perfect alignment of matter, heat and energy is utterly inestimatable, that the chances are less than 1 with a lot of zeros after it. It doesn't really make sense that the universe exists at all, but we accept it as truth that God spoke it into being. The truth of eternal life goes far beyond our human reasoning, but we put all our trust in Messiah to grant it. Even the binding of Isaac stresses our reasoning sensabilities, but we accept the messianic implicatins and accpet it as truth on faith.

In summary, we readliy accept that which does not affect our immediate existance as truth, but do we accept those things that may alter our lifestyle or embarass us in front of our breathern as truth? Or do we add the weight of the burden to be set apart in these ways and the risk of emnity from friends and family on the back of our Saviour?

Mat 10:37
(37) "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

When we quit trying to figure out everything and simply agree to let God dictate the terms, we can serve Him in true obedience.

If we wait until we discover some reasonable explanation behind His laws before implementing them, we are not really obeyinhg Him, we are obeying human reasoning.


the same trust Abraham had............. yep. I will sacrifice Isaac because God has commanded me to. Why would you do something like that Abraham. I know God will supply the sacrifice. I love my only promised son Isaac, and I do not understand what is going on, but God is good and my trust in Him has been solidified.

Most would hesitate if commanded to do the same. If God said divorce your cheating spouse, quit your job, get rid of that car, do not give your children any more money, and stop seeing that person most would act like God was asking them to kill their Isaac. We look for all sorts of logical reasons to keep them or discover why God commanded it in the first place. I personaly know..............

What are some of us holding on to as our personal Isaacs.

RabbiKnife
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:10 PM
I can't agree that there is anything arbitrary about anything that God does. God is not irrational.

We know of God what He has condescended for us to know of Him. He relates to as humans, because that is how He created us. He does not related to us as animals, or angels, or fish, or any other created being. Accordingly, human reasoning is a necessary part of the relationship and interaction between God and man.

In addition to creation, He has chosen to reveal Himself to us through creation, through Scripture, through Christ, and through the indwelling Holy Spirit. All of these forms of revelation complement one another and assist us in our relationship to a God that is otherwise completely unknowable. Human reasoning is one of the aspects of humanity that God gave us that He gave no other creature in order to accomplish our relationship.

That's God's plan, not man's.

keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:15 PM
I didn't say human reasoning was 'bad' or 'wrong'. I framed human reasoning in contrast to God's wisdom. Are you saying that we can use the reasoning God endowed us with to figure Him out or understand everything He commands us? There's not one verse in the Bible that alludes to that concept, on the contrary, much of the Bible details how human reasoning against God's commands has brought rebellion, pain, suffering and death to us.

There are boundaries.

manichunter
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:20 PM
I didn't say human reasoning was 'bad' or 'wrong'. I framed human reasoning in contrast to God's wisdom. Are you saying that we can use the reasoning God endowed us with to figure Him out or understand everything He commands us? There's not one verse in the Bible that alludes to that concept, on the contrary, much of the Bible details how human reasoning against God's commands has brought rebellion, pain, suffering and death to us.

There are boundaries.


Yeah, Adam and Eve a little to much thinking from the start.

Teke
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:31 PM
I can't agree that there is anything arbitrary about anything that God does. God is not irrational.

We know of God what He has condescended for us to know of Him. He relates to as humans, because that is how He created us. He does not related to us as animals, or angels, or fish, or any other created being. Accordingly, human reasoning is a necessary part of the relationship and interaction between God and man.

In addition to creation, He has chosen to reveal Himself to us through creation, through Scripture, through Christ, and through the indwelling Holy Spirit. All of these forms of revelation complement one another and assist us in our relationship to a God that is otherwise completely unknowable. Human reasoning is one of the aspects of humanity that God gave us that He gave no other creature in order to accomplish our relationship.

That's God's plan, not man's.

I do believe you have hit the essence of understanding the spirit of the law. Many of the Jews simply miss this understanding. It is not a matter of the written letter of the law, but what the spirit behind it is telling us.

Jesus and His Apostles understood that the spirit of the law was more valuable than the letter.

I have tried repeatedly to get this point across. But many times persons relate the spirit of the law to their own personal spirit or understanding. Truly no one person can understand the spirit behind the law. The church has, from it's beginning, taken great pains in bringing out that spirit behind the law. And the church did so to retain the emphasis of Jesus' teaching, as that is of the utmost importance.

Teke
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:39 PM
Are you saying that we can use the reasoning God endowed us with to figure Him out or understand everything He commands us? There's not one verse in the Bible that alludes to that concept,

Keck, I believe He absolutely expects us to be able to do just that (understand His commands).

And, yes, there is a verse by Jesus Himself which clearly tells us of our help on the matter. That being the promise of the Holy Spirit which He prays the Father to send to guide us into that spiritual understanding of things (all truth).

Jhn 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.




on the contrary, much of the Bible details how human reasoning against God's commands has brought rebellion, pain, suffering and death to us.

There are boundaries.

Ah, human reasoning like anything else can be a good or bad thing. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. ;)

keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:48 PM
I do believe you have hit the essence of understanding the spirit of the law. Many of the Jews simply miss this understanding. It is not a matter of the written letter of the law, but what the spirit behind it is telling us.



Disobeying God is hardly the essence of understanding the spirit of the law.

keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 07:51 PM
Keck, I believe He absolutely expects us to be able to do just that (understand His commands).

Show me one verse where God says he expects us to understand His commands. He expects us to do them, not toy with them in our carnal minds.



And, yes, there is a verse by Jesus Himself which clearly tells us of our help on the matter. That being the promise of the Holy Spirit which He prays the Father to send to guide us into that spiritual understanding of things (all truth).

Jhn 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

The Spirit of God does not conflict with the Word of God.



Ah, human reasoning like anything else can be a good or bad thing. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. ;)

Human reasoning does not exceed God. That is all I am saying. What say you?

RabbiKnife
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:22 PM
If you are saying "human reason = carnal reasoning", then I will agree with you.

However, I do not subscribe to the necessity of carnal reasoning. In my construction, "human [Christian] reasoning = Godly reasoning".

After all, we are told that "if we are Christ's, then we have the mind of Christ."

Are you talking about human reasoning not informed by creation, Scripture, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, or about human reasoning informed by those?

Teke
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:37 PM
Disobeying God is hardly the essence of understanding the spirit of the law.

You never read that from my posts. I absolutely believe we are to be obedient to Him, completely, at all costs, even to death.....
I believe you are not understanding me, and that may be because you are not really trying to understand what I'm trying to express. That is, there is a better way and it's not hard for you to reconcile with what you already understand. If anything it should be easier for you to reconcile, once you understand.

I'm praying for you too Keck, along with Manichunter. Your both so close.


Show me one verse where God says he expects us to understand His commands. He expects us to do them, not toy with them in our carnal minds.

Oh, no, He absolutely expects us to understand and make a conscious choice in the matter. And the beauty of it is that we can "do it" (Deut. 30:14, Romans 10:6-9)


The Spirit of God does not conflict with the Word of God.

Absolutely not.



Human reasoning does not exceed God. That is all I am saying. What say you?

No, I wouldn't say human reasoning exceeds God. But that God uses our human reasoning to accomplish His purpose.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Is.1:18

keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:45 PM
If you are saying "human reason = carnal reasoning", then I will agree with you.

However, I do not subscribe to the necessity of carnal reasoning. In my construction, "human [Christian] reasoning = Godly reasoning".

After all, we are told that "if we are Christ's, then we have the mind of Christ."

Are you talking about human reasoning not informed by creation, Scripture, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, or about human reasoning informed by those?

So do you think "Christian reasoning" allows us to modify or annul God's commands? I am asking a sincere question.

RabbiKnife
Apr 23rd 2009, 08:48 PM
Of course not.

But it allows us to understand God's commands and their application to us.

That is where the rub usually comes.

keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:04 PM
You never read that from my posts. I absolutely believe we are to be obedient to Him, completely, at all costs, even to death.....

I believe you. But that's really of no matter or consequence, is it?


I believe you are not understanding me, and that may be because you are not really trying to understand what I'm trying to express. That is, there is a better way and it's not hard for you to reconcile with what you already understand. If anything it should be easier for you to reconcile, once you understand.

It seems that you are presupposing a superior positional relationship with God than mine. I don't think either of us should assume that.


I'm praying for you too Keck, along with Manichunter. Your both so close.

And I pray for you, and specifically when your congregation celebrated Pascha. It's not for us to determine each other's 'closeness' to whatever our standards of closeness are.

Psa 37:4-5
(4) Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart.
(5) Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, and He will do it.

At one time, I did not know what the desires of my heart were. Now I do, and it's simple. That my faith in Him exceed my knowledge of Him. That's it. My heart's desire. I have 100% trust that He do the work in me.



Oh, no, He absolutely expects us to understand and make a conscious choice in the matter. And the beauty of it is that we can "do it" (Deut. 30:14, Romans 10:6-9)

Um..just an example and I am talking about tabernacle times, so bear with me =.no one, but no one has come up with an 'understanding' of why a woman is ritually unclean after birth, let alone why the birth of a daughter makes her unfit to enter for 8 weeks vs. 4 weeks for a baby boy. Yeah, I've read a lot of opinions, some rabbinic ones are laughable, but nothing that would sooth our efforts to reason. And I don't think God was any less 'fair' in this aspect to His children before His Son than after. Not sure that came out right.....


No, I wouldn't say human reasoning exceeds God. But that God uses our human reasoning to accomplish His purpose.

He uses humans. Sometimes through some rather nasty choices of ours too.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Is.1:18

Out of context. Isaiah wasn't refering to a debate about the validity of or reasons for God's commands.

Teke
Apr 23rd 2009, 09:21 PM
I believe you. But that's really of no matter or consequence, is it?

Just letting you know up front there is no hidden agenda on my part.


It seems that you are presupposing a superior positional relationship with God than mine. I don't think either of us should assume that.

No, not at all.


And I pray for you, and specifically when your congregation celebrated Pascha. It's not for us to determine each other's 'closeness' to whatever our standards of closeness are.

Thank you. It's Bright Week, we celebrate all week the Resurrection feast. No fasting at all this week.



Um..just an example and I am talking about tabernacle times, so bear with me =.no one, but no one has come up with an 'understanding' of why a woman is ritually unclean after birth, let alone why the birth of a daughter makes her unfit to enter for 8 weeks vs. 4 weeks for a baby boy. Yeah, I've read a lot of opinions, some rabbinic ones are laughable, but nothing that would sooth our efforts to reason. And I don't think God was any less 'fair' in this aspect to His children before His Son than after. Not sure that came out right.....


I believe it's just a blood issue (both figuratively and literally).



Out of context. Isaiah wasn't refering to a debate about the validity of or reasons for God's commands.

Forgive me if the verse caused confusion. I posted it to show that God does deal with mankinds reason. As Rabbiknife posted, "After all, we are told that "if we are Christ's, then we have the mind of Christ."

keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 10:17 PM
Just letting you know up front there is no hidden agenda on my part.

I trust you and your intent.



No, not at all.

OK. I must have misunderstood.



Thank you. It's Bright Week, we celebrate all week the Resurrection feast. No fasting at all this week.

The Resurrection of Messiah was a turning point for not only this world, but for HaShem's plan. I don't think we could ever overstate them.



I believe it's just a blood issue (both figuratively and literally).

That is one explanation, but there are others that are compelling.

For instance, from other commands, we know that ritual unfitness are associated with death. While the birth of a baby is a celebration of life, there is another aspect that harkens back to the transgression in the Garden. A woman who gives birth begets life, but by the same token, she begets death (evenually because of the original sin). From the moment the child is concieved, he/she begins his/her journey towards death. Perhaps this is a reminder that all human life eventually ends in death and ultimately, our need for a Saviour to return us to the condition God intends.

But the fact remains that even though we think we may have reasoned it out doesn't make the command valid or invalid. It simply exists because God spoke it. Actually Soloman used God's gift of wisdom to reason out much of God's commands. One such story is that Soloman pondered the reasons for the command that Kings are not to multiply wives. Soloman reasoned that the command was given because many wives would distract a King and the King would not have room in his heart for God, there fore the command was good. However, Soloman reasoned that since he already had God in his heart and loved God, the command simply didn't apply to him. Kings were commanded to write Torah and read it to the public, I think yearly. The story goes that when Soloman was at this particular command, he noticed the scribes who checked his work were asleep, and he changed a 'tittle' that negated the entire command. BIG MISTAKE

Fast forward to Jesus statement about not one jot or tittle regarding God's Torah. Certainly as God, He knew the consequences of changing one jot or tittle.



Forgive me if the verse caused confusion. I posted it to show that God does deal with mankinds reason. As Rabbiknife posted, "After all, we are told that "if we are Christ's, then we have the mind of Christ."

Oh yes. In that context you are correct. But God's commands are non-negotiable. If our 'minds of Christ' disagree with the Word of God, then we have the problem, not God.

Teke
Apr 24th 2009, 02:14 PM
But the fact remains that even though we think we may have reasoned it out doesn't make the command valid or invalid. It simply exists because God spoke it.

Well the thing is Keck, that we have to re examine everything in light of Jesus teachings for us. Since He is God, His words and actions definitely bear authority for us to do so. We have been introduced to a completely new priesthood through Him.

Just this one subject you've brought up, women with their menstrual cycle and child birth, has been discussed in my church from the beginning. And to date not everyone is in agreement on the subject. In some churches women are not allowed communion during this period. In some churches women are not allowed to enter the church after child birth.
There is no strict command from the church on the matter. It was never a matter of any ecumenical council. So it was left to the bishops discretion on the matter.

However, there is some informtion from Jesus that allows us to examine the issue of purity and impurity of the OT in light of Christ in the NT. Examples like the woman who had an issue of blood and touched Jesus robe, show that He did not refuse her, but healed her and praised her faith.

Baptism is our cleansing and need not be repeated. We have strict rules about baptism in my church. For instance, on the day one is baptized, if they are baptized in clothes, the clothes must be burnt or burried. Any blood or mucus from the body touching some material, must be disposed of in the same manner.

Now if we introduce such restrictions as abstaining because of our created state (that which is natural to us), we would be making a statment about the salvific work of baptism. Should we think that only on certain days we have salvation and not others. If a woman dies on a day that she is in her cycle, or has born a child, does she die without salvation. That would be nonsense.

Then there is also the matter of Christ canceling the partitioning of nature. ie. male and female are all one in Christ, there is no difference.
While I can see how this could be taken to extremes, for this one subject it is worth considering.

Christ is greater than any law, written or unwritten. Thus, our obedience to Him alone, overcomes any other differences.

keck553
Apr 24th 2009, 04:23 PM
Well the thing is Keck, that we have to re examine everything in light of Jesus teachings for us. Since He is God, His words and actions definitely bear authority for us to do so. We have been introduced to a completely new priesthood through Him.

I do use the "Jesus filter". I just have to remember that He is the Author of Torah and the inspiration for ALL Scripture. I try really hard not to 'find a few words that agree with my way' to justify my way, you know what I mean? My ways are not His ways.


Just this one subject you've brought up, women with their menstrual cycle and child birth, has been discussed in my church from the beginning. And to date not everyone is in agreement on the subject. In some churches women are not allowed communion during this period. In some churches women are not allowed to enter the church after child birth.

A church is not a Temple, nor is God's presence anymore in some box behind a 6' thick curtain. The Spirit of God is in all of us, and brings us life even though our flesh sins and decays. I believe (and I'm sorry I don't have the Scripture to back this up at this moment) we are all made ritually clean by the indwelling Spirit of God, but I could be wrong. I'm not afraid to let go of my opinion if God reveals an uncomfortable truth to me. IOW, it's a mystery. But the point is that God's ways aren't always according to our desires, our understandings, our wisdom, and our perceived needs. It's not an easy walk, you know that.



There is no strict command from the church on the matter. It was never a matter of any ecumenical council. So it was left to the bishops discretion on the matter.

I am so distant from church rules, I can't even relate anymore. My congregation has rules that allow for a peaceful and glorifying to the LORD assembly, but there are no other 'house rules.' The other church I left a few years ago had so many man-made rules and teachings, it was more like an amway meeting than worshipping God. I suppose it's all based on what one is willing to accept. To be honest I am a fairly rebellious person, but only in my response to men's self-edifying rules and traditions.


However, there is some informtion from Jesus that allows us to examine the issue of purity and impurity of the OT in light of Christ in the NT. Examples like the woman who had an issue of blood and touched Jesus robe, show that He did not refuse her, but healed her and praised her faith.

Actually that supports my previous comment. Thank you! But remember, when Yeshua healed the leper, He still had the leper follow the Torah commands for a leper. It's not becuase Yeshua couldn't cleanse him, but it was so all rightouesness could be fulfilled. Yeshua did not profane His own Torah.


Baptism is our cleansing and need not be repeated. We have strict rules about baptism in my church. For instance, on the day one is baptized, if they are baptized in clothes, the clothes must be burnt or burried. Any blood or mucus from the body touching some material, must be disposed of in the same manner.

I haven't figured out baptism. The concept of the mikvah, and the reasons why people were coming to John the Immerser were not the same as most baptisms I am aware of. A lot of people are baptised into a church sect, which I find no Scriptural support for what-so-ever. For me, it was a 'wedding vow' before the world that I accept Yeshua Adonai as my saviour and my only God and my promise to serve only Him. The rituals you described are absoluetly beautiful!


Now if we introduce such restrictions as abstaining because of our created state (that which is natural to us), we would be making a statment about the salvific work of baptism. Should we think that only on certain days we have salvation and not others. If a woman dies on a day that she is in her cycle, or has born a child, does she die without salvation. That would be nonsense.

Sorry, I didn't get your point on this one, except I believe God's indwelling Spirit makes us all ritually clean. A bit more evidence is that women can no longer bring a burnt offerinig and a sin offering after birth. You realize that Mariam, Yeshua's mother did this exact thing, even though He was born of the seed of Elohim and without the inherent original sin. So, either she did it because she obeyed Torah, or she did it so all righteousness could be fulfilled, probably both. But notice that Yeshua, no matter that He was without sin, the unblemished Lamb of God walked in His own statues. Why? So His lamp could burn brighly and His deeds reflective of the Father's works.


Then there is also the matter of Christ canceling the partitioning of nature. ie. male and female are all one in Christ, there is no difference.
While I can see how this could be taken to extremes, for this one subject it is worth considering.

This is one I wasn't really aware of becuase the "Jew and Gentile" part of it is so distracting. I really need to pray and study this concept. I have some ideas, but they are speculation.


Christ is greater than any law, written or unwritten. Thus, our obedience to Him alone, overcomes any other differences.

John says Messiah is the living Torah. If God changes His mind about something, then I have no assurance or hope in Him or my salvation. My hope rests on His steadfast promises. If I take the view that God changed His mind, than He could change His mind tomorrow and pull the rug from under me as most believe He did with the Jews. I can't do that. For me it's not an 'annulment' but a 'how much more' revelation. God has always added to His covenants, but never annuled the standards of His rightouesness.

I have no problem obeying the Author of Torah.

Teke
Apr 24th 2009, 04:32 PM
If God changes His mind about something,...

For instance, forgiving your sin.

I don't really believe God has a mind like we do to be changing. Scripture says God does what He wants to do. ie. have mercy on who He will

Perahps as He tries us, we also try Him in His mercy. :idea:

keck553
Apr 24th 2009, 05:24 PM
I'm not sure how this relates to God changing is mind about His Holy statues and what is common and what He designed for our use as fit or unfit.

A person who is ritually unclean isn't in that state because he sinned or is dirty. It just means his flesh is not in a positional state where it can not be presented before God. Hence the mikvah and the ritual cleansing. God's Holy Spirt is our mikvah, if you will. and if immersion in water can make us ritually fit to be in God's presence, how much more ritually cleansing is His indwelling Spirit?.

Your Advert here


Hosted by Webnet77