PDA

View Full Version : Jesus and Martyrdom



beefy
Apr 23rd 2009, 10:20 PM
Jesus and Martyrdom
Hey there, my name is Beefy, and I am new to this forum. Hope everyone is doing alright.

Why do we kill people to show that killing people is wrong?

What would Jesus do?

When one of Christs' disciples cut of the ear of the guard, Jesus healed the guard and told the disciple, "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."Matthew 26:52

Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, and to love our enemies. He taught us to bless those who cursed us. Jesus loved everyone. He never hurt anyone. Neither did His disciples. In fact, they were faithful to Him, even when they were persecuted and killed for His sake.

When Jesus says "Love," in "love your enemies," the text uses the Greek word "agape." Unlike any word in the English language, "agape" calls for deliberate, unconditional, non-retaliatory, sacrificial, all-encompassing, all-inclusive, nonviolent universal love, a love which lays down our lives for others, in this case, the people of Iraq and Afghanistan. Jesus commands us to practice the unconditional love of God, to show, for example, "agape" to the people of Iraq.

The ends (saving someone) are not justified by the means (killing someone), for then you have turned into the transgressor for you perform the same action you try to prevent him from performing.

As a popular bumper sticker reads, "When Jesus said 'love your enemies, I think he probably meant don't kill them."

Before one begins to cite examples of killing in the Old Testament, remember that the argument was that Christians don't kill people. The Jews in the Old Testament were not Christians. Christ was not even born yet, so they could not possibly be Christians. God physically spoke to the Jews, and He specifically told them what to do, and when to do it. The Jews of the Old Testament were not Christians, and they followed the Old Covenant. The Christians follow the New Covenant.

When Jesus formed the New Covenant with Christians, the law of old was passed away:

Hebrews 8:13, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

Galatians 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

John 1:17, " For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

Luke 16:16, "The law and the prophets were until John(the baptist): since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Hebrews 8 "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.For I will be merciful to their
unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

Romans 7:6, " But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

Jesus presents the way, the truth, and the life for Christians. The only way:

Matthew 5:38-39 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

And His disciples follow suit:
Romans 12:17, "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men."

1 Peter 3:19, "Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing."

Before one begins to cite this verse, Romans 13:1, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

The powers that be are ordained of God, indeed. God works everything for the good of those who love Him, and nothing occurs that does not happen according to His will. But the verse does not say that the powers that be are followers of Christ, or that they are receiving God's blessing. If one follows the logical conclusion that the powers that be are ordained of God, then one must realize that Nazi Germany was ordained of God just as easily as America was ordained of God. Both are powers that be (or were). It doesn't mean they are followers of Christ.

Otherwise the verse would be saying, "Every nation is a follower of Christ," which is obviously not so.

Continue to read the chapter please. Seven verses later, in Romans 13:8-10, it says, ""Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13: 8-10

It says right here that "love worketh no ill to his neighbor." The action Hitler took, to order the extermination of the Jews, his fellow neighbors, was an action that worked ill to the Jews, and therefore was not an action of love, because "Love worketh no ill to his neighbor." Jesus said to love our enemies, bless those who curse you, and to do good to those who hate you.

It is inconceivable that any human could kill another human out of love. It is not Biblical. Killing other people is not God's law, because it cannot be done out of love, and if it cannot be done out of love, it cannot be a "fulfillment of the law, " because "love is the fulfilling of the law."

God has ordained powers in place for a reason. Oftentimes, God placed powers that were not fulfilling His law into power in order to fulfill His prophecy, and oftentimes His prophecy led to the eventual downfall of those ordained powers. We are to pay tribute to whom tribute is due, and obey them in power as long as it does not contradict God's law. We are to "submit to one another in the fear of God."
Ephesians 5:21

Jesus did not come to kill, but to save. And we Christians are told to be imitators of Christ.

"Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ." 1 Corinthians 11:1

"And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. Luke 9:51-56

Before one begins to cite this verse, Hebrews 13:17, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

Who was he talking about? Who has rule over us?

He states in the same chapter who it is that has rule over us:Hebrews 13:24 "Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you."

Note that he says to salute the saints, and then salutes the very saints he is writing to. The saints follow God, and it is God who rules everyone, regardless of whether they believe it or not. God is who rules over us, and therefore so do His saints.

What do His saints say?
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 2 Corinthians 10:3-4

Furthermore, the disciples informed Christians that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" and that the sword we fight with is the "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Ephesians 6:12,17

God says, "Vengeance is mine." He will avenge the persecution against Christians and their families. It is not our responsibility to avenge ourselves. We live by faith. Jesus told us to be "as wise as serpents, and as harmless as doves." Matthew 10:16

Jesus says to be as "harmless as doves" immediately after he says that He sends us out as sheep amongst wolves. Sheep got nothing on wolves, they are truly defenseless. Only the sheperd defends them. Jesus is our sheperd, and therefore He is our only defender.

Jesus also told us "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven" Luke 6:37

To not forgive our enemies means that we will not be forgiven by God. Only if we forgive, then we will be forgiven.

We are not to judge other people, at all, not ever. There is a difference when one judges an action or dispute, reather than judging a person. If a person lies and you tell them, "You have lied you shouldn't do that," that is acceptable, judging an action. But is you tell them, "You are a liar!" That is a judgement on the person. It implies that a liar is who the person is, that they are perpetually a liar. Only God can judge people, their character, who they are.

If someone kills or rapes someone, then we"avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Romans 12:19

Before one cites, "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." Romans 13:4

The disciples were not perfect. Sometimes the disciples of Jesus did not always speak in congruence to what Jesus said, as evidenced by when one of them said "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:35

Jesus never said any such thing!!!

There is a contradiction present here between what the disciple says,and what Jesus said, "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." Romans 13:4

Paul tells us to be afraid of a mortal man with a mortal sword, who cannot kill the soul.

Did not Jesus tell the disciples not to fear those which kill the body?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

Paul says to fear man, whereas Jesus says to fear God. A contradiction is present. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Jesus!!!

Therefore, Paul cannot be writing this part of scripture out of a calling from the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit does not contradict Jesus.

Instead, Jesus tells them that "ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end (aka death) shall be saved." Matthew 10:22

Even John says this in Revelation 2:10, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

John also wrote in Revelation 13:10 "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

Notice how Jesus said, thousands of years ago, that "All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matthew 26:52

And in future prophecy for this world, "he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." Revelation 13:10

The message has not changed after all this time. If you take up the sword, you will perish with the sword! Jesus does not say when, he only says it is so.

Instead, Jesus told us to forgive our brother "not seven times, but seventy-seven times." We are to forgive always, no matter what has been done to us, or to someone we love. In this way, God will also forgive our sins, if we forgive others' sin.

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." 1 Corinthians 4:5

We are not supposed to judge anyone until the Lord comes back again, and then He will judge them. That is what we are commanded to do, by these words, and by "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged." And Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

Policemen, elected officials, and military soldiers are not above God's Law. If they seek to be a disciple of Jesus, a Christian, then they must also love and forgive as Jesus loved and forgave, and not judge anyone before the time.

beefy
Apr 23rd 2009, 10:21 PM
What About Jesus' Command to Buy a Sword?

Some would argue that Luke 22:36-38 justifies joining an organization of the world whose purpose it is to "defend" a nation by killing those which it views as politically opposing it. The verse says the following, "Then He [Jesus] said to them [His disciples], 'But now he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garments and buy one. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end.' So they said, 'Lord, look, here are two swords.' And He said to them; 'It is enough.'"

Let us agree upon what these verses do plainly teach. First, clearly Jesus does say that his disciples could have swords, and in fact He does command them to buy a sword. However Jesus gives us the reason he gave that command. He says, "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.'" So, what Jesus is saying is that he must be numbered with the transgressors, so he says in effect, 'go ahead and buy swords so that you will be considered rebels-insurrectionists-transgressors when the religious leaders come toarrest me'.

In this way, Jesus will fulfill the prophesy about Messiah being numbered with the transgressors. It is that simple and this fits the context of that passage the best.The most important principle in properly interpreting the scripture is context and cross reference with other scripture. The context of this passage is NOT some political statement, nor some statement about defending a nation. Rather, it is a statement about Jesus fulfilling Messianic prophesy about being numbered with transgressors.

When other's want to kill us for loving the Lord Jesus, then we allow them to send us Home, for to be with our Father is our heart's desire.

Before one says the following: "if killing people is so bad, why didn't Jesus tell the centurion to quit being a soldier? Let us review those verses, Luke 7:1-10:

"And a centurion's slave, who was highly regarded by him, was sick and about to die. When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders asking Him to come and save the life of his slave..."

The centurion says to Jesus: "...I did not even consider myself worthy to come to You, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed..."

"...Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, "I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith." When those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the slave in good health."

There is a different issue which this passage could be appealled to by using the same arguement: if slavery was so bad, why didn't Jesus tell the centurion to quit owning slaves?

Such a point may seem silly beyond the need to consider to modern sensibilities, but such arguements were exactly the kinds used to deffend slavery as little as a century ago.

The New Testament is filled with references to Christian slaves and slavery which doesn't paint it in a particularily negative light (Philippians 4:22, Ephesians 6:5-9, Colossians 3:22-4:1). There is even a whole book of the New Testament, Paul's Epistle to Philemon, which is giving advice to a Christian slaveowner and the slave. Paul has advice on fulfilling the duty of slaves, permitting even Christians to have slaves and going on to say that to even debate the slavery issue is pointless quarrelling, as in this quote from the First Epistle to Timothy.

But Paul later wrote, correcting his error concerning slavery, in Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Ultimately, the whole situation is less about the centurion than it is a lesson for us. This is the extravagance of God's grace: that even a slave-owning soldier from an oppressive and occupying military superpower (Rome) can know God's grace.How easy would it have been for Jesus and the Hebrews to tell the centurion to shove off because he's their oppressor. Yet they did not... God's grace is for all people, even our enemies.

But how can we finally confirm that this was His intent and not actually a standard ambivilance towards solidery?

Prior to this event, John the Baptist actually does interact with soldiers who come to him asking specifically what they should do. John's response is related in Luke 3:14: And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." If we can presume enough to suggest that John's and Jesus' teachings were in coherence, then it stands that yes, Jesus did not intend soldiers to continue on in soldiery. The reason for this is because if soldiers followed the command to "do violence to no man," then they would get in trouble with their superiors, and would likely get kicked out of the military, or given a non-combat postion within the military. In this non-combat position, they are still commanded to be "content with your wages."

There is no Biblical basis at all for "defending" one's family and/or country in violence. The only Biblical defending there is to do is to put oneself between the bullet and the family member/fellow countryman, in self-sacrifice.

That is what Jesus and his disciples would do, because they say that "to live is Christ and to die is gain."Phillipians 1:21 They hold no value on their physical life, because they know it is only temporary. They seek not to save their lives, lest the lose it, and they lose their life for Christs' sake so they can find life anew.

Jesus nor the Bible ever once mentioned one's "duty" to one's country or one's "duty" to one's family. Jesus did say, however, that "He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:37

Do you love your son or daugther more so much that in your defense of them you will disobey Jesus command to "love your enemy" and to be "as harmless as a dove"? If so, then you are not worthy of Him. Not that we are worthy of His love anyway, but my point is to love God more than we love our family.

Jesus did say that, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

Jesus illustrated this love through His death on the cross, and He did it without violence. His disciples illustrated this love through their martyrdom, and they did it without violence. They laid down their lives, and they hurt no one. They loved everyone.

It is written, "The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord." Matthew 10:24-25

Just as the servant is not above the master, Christians are not above martyrdom. It is what Jesus did, it is what his disciples did. We Christians are His disciples. "It is enough" that we be as the master,Jesus, and be ready and willing to die for our faith, or to give our life for a family member, friend, or even our very enemy, in order to show God's love. That what Jesus did, He died for His enemies, us, the sinners(the enemies of God).

Even going to law against one another is forbidden:

"But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren." 1 Corinthians 6:6-8

Real Christians do not go to law "before the unbelievers." Real Christians do what Jesus said to do. Jesus said "And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also." Matthew 5:40

And in very early Christianity one finds nearly universal opposition to the idea that Christians can engage in war:

"We who formerly murdered one another now refrain from making war even upon our enemies." Justin Martyr

"I decline military command." Tatian

"We are not to draw an outline of ... a sword or a bow, since we follow peace." Clement of Alexandria

"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian

"Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?" Tertullian

"So the more anyone excels in godliness, the more effective the help is that he renders to kings. This is a greater help than what is given by soldiers who go forth to fight and kill as many of the enemy as they can." Origen

"Our prayers defeat all demons who stir up war. . . Accordingly, in this way, we are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them." Origen

"And murder - which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual - is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless- but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!" Cyprian

"Why would [the just man] carry on war and mix himself with the passions of others when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men?" Lactantius

"Is the [military] laurel of triumph made of leaves, or of corpses? Is it adorned with ribbons, or with tombs? Is it wet with ointments, or with the tears of wives and mothers? It may be made of some [dead] Christians too. For Christ is also believed among the barbarians. Tertullian

Modern day quotes (non-Christian)

Retaliation is counter-poison and poison breeds more poison. The nectar of love alone can destroy the poison of hate. Armed conspiracies against something satanic is like matching Satans against Satan. "An eye for an eye only makes the world blind." -- Mohandas K. Ghandi

Fighting fire with fire is rarely a good idea. It's much better to fight fire with water.

Fighting for peace is like f*ing for virginity.

The war on terrorism is an attempt to show that we will not accept the use of planes and bombs to kill people and destroy buildings.

We will do so by killing people and destroying buildings with planes and bombs.

How hypocritical is that? To repay evil for evil? It is undeniably wrong!

Psalm 118:8 "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man."

Psalm 146:3 "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help."

Jeremiah 17:5 "Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD."

The question you must ask yourself is "Who would Jesus bomb?" Is one following the example of Jesus if one is bombing and killing other people?

As you can see, Christians are told not to take part in the killing or judging of any person. Judging an action or dispute is perfectly acceptable. Christians choose unconditional love and forgiveness instead of "justice", and they leave judgment on other people up to God, as Jesus said to do. The wars of men, the courts of men, and all things associated with them will be around until the very Day of the Lord, when Jesus comes back in all his glory. But Christians that follow Jesus do not take any part in the killing or judgment of other people, because Jesus told us not to.

"Why do you call me ĎLord, Lord,í and do not do what I tell you? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, hears my words, and acts on them. That one is like a man building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when a flood arose, the river burst against that house but could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who hears and does not act is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, immediately it fell, and great was the ruin of that house." (Luke 6:46-49)

Why does our so-called "Christian nation" cry out 'Lord, Lord,' and yet does not do what Jesus said? He told us to love our enemies, and to bless those who curse us, and to turn the other cheek! That means love the terrorists, bless the terrorists, and give food and drink to the terrorists!

Christ's Response to Terrorism: Love Your Enemies! Bless Those Who Curse You!The whole point of Jesusí teaching is to tell disciples that their attitude toward "enemies" should be radically different from others.

"If you do good to those who do good to you," Jesus added, "what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same" (Lk 6:32).

So many people instinctively hate those who hate them and believe they are justified killing people who might kill them or their loved ones. In contrast to this, Jesus is saying: "Love your enemies, as God loves them."

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your tresspasses."

Matthew 6:14-15

An example of how Christian martyrs (aka the disciples) would have dealt with terrorists (watch) Type in on Youtube: "Israeli soldiers Palestinian girl"

What would Jesus do? The Christians are His disciples. What would His disciples do? What will you do? The Lord is merciful indeed. While we were still His enemies in our sin, He loved us. We should ask His help us to follow in His example and love our enemies in turn. It isnít easy. Our whole culture rebels against it. But through Christ who gives us strength, we can do it. Only He can deliver people from our natural selfishness. Yes, itís natural for us to be selfish in the flesh. We must trust the Holy Spirit to show love to those for whom we may not feel love for. If we love our enemies and treat them well, we will truly show that Jesus is Lord of our lives.

If you read all of that, you are to be commended. Thank you.

keck553
Apr 23rd 2009, 10:22 PM
Jesus didn't give His life to become a martyr.

He did it to give us life.

When He returns, those who don't accept His gift will perish in a much more horrifying way than human warfare could possibly produce. You may want to find the real meaning behind 'love your enemies' instead of relying on your own human reasoning.

Just a suggestion.

beefy
May 2nd 2009, 01:37 PM
Jesus didn't give His life to become a martyr.

He did it to give us life.

When He returns, those who don't accept His gift will perish in a much more horrifying way than human warfare could possibly produce. You may want to find the real meaning behind 'love your enemies' instead of relying on your own human reasoning.

Just a suggestion.

Well, His disciples were most certainly martyrs. And if you are a Christian, you are His disciple.

You may want to think about what Jesus meant when He said " be as wise as serpents, and as harmless as doves." Matthew 10:16 (http://www.biblegateway.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV-UK&passage=Matthew+10:16)

Jesus says to be as "harmless as doves" immediately after he says that He sends us out as sheep amongst wolves. Sheep got nothing on wolves, they are truly defenseless. Only the shepherd defends them. Jesus is our shepherd, and therefore He is our only defender.

If you hurt someone else, you are not being "harmless as a dove." Therefore, you are disobeying Christ commands. And Jesus says, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Don't you love Jesus? Then obey Him.



That's my suggestion.

daughter
May 2nd 2009, 01:55 PM
Beefy... you start your post (much of with I agree with) with the rhetorical question, "why do we kill people to show that killing people is wrong?"

So far as I am aware, nobody on this forum does that. I've personally never killed anybody, and I pray I never do.

There are some soldiers and members of the police force on this forum. Even though some of them may have taken lives, I don't think that they do it to show that killing people is wrong. Sometimes it may be in self defence, or to defend others.

But to the best of my knowledge, your introductory post monstrously misrepresented Christians. I'm puzzled. Why do you paint all Christians as self congratulatory killers? That was a very poor introduction to the forum. If that's what you think of us, I don't know why you'd want to hang out with us!

beefy
May 4th 2009, 08:38 PM
Beefy... you start your post (much of with I agree with) with the rhetorical question, "why do we kill people to show that killing people is wrong?"

So far as I am aware, nobody on this forum does that. I've personally never killed anybody, and I pray I never do.

There are some soldiers and members of the police force on this forum. Even though some of them may have taken lives, I don't think that they do it to show that killing people is wrong. Sometimes it may be in self defence, or to defend others.

But to the best of my knowledge, your introductory post monstrously misrepresented Christians. I'm puzzled. Why do you paint all Christians as self congratulatory killers? That was a very poor introduction to the forum. If that's what you think of us, I don't know why you'd want to hang out with us!

Well, it's because some Christians justify the war.

Some Christians believe that we can get others (terrorists) to stop using planes and bombs to kill people and blow up buildings.

They believe that the best way to demonstrate this is by killing people and blowing up buildings using planes and bombs. This has been done in Iraq many times.

How hypocritical. Don't you think?

RabbiKnife
May 4th 2009, 08:46 PM
If you want to have a discussion about war and just war theory, the role of government (it carries the sword for a purpose, or at least God says so,) or pacifism as a philosophy, then by all means do so.

But don't accuse everyone of being disobedient just because of your beliefs and your taking of Scripture out of context.

No, I don't think a country engaging in robust, aggressive military action to protect the lives of innocent people is hypocritical at all.

But that's just me.
I'm a vicious evil killer.

beefy
May 9th 2009, 09:05 AM
If you want to have a discussion about war and just war theory, the role of government (it carries the sword for a purpose, or at least God says so,) or pacifism as a philosophy, then by all means do so.

But don't accuse everyone of being disobedient just because of your beliefs and your taking of Scripture out of context.

No, I don't think a country engaging in robust, aggressive military action to protect the lives of innocent people is hypocritical at all.

But that's just me.
I'm a vicious evil killer.

Actually, God does not say so. Paul says so. I care more about the words of Jesus than the words of Paul. You should too.

Now the pro-war argument runs: "God has placed this government over us, so disobeying the government is disobeying God." But there is a problem when applying this to war: when we fight a war, we fight against another country. But according to Romans 13:1, that other government was established by God too! So the argument ("obeying the government is obeying God") is automatically negated when we fight to overthrow another government - because we are fighting against a God-ordained government!

Iraq is ordained by God too, therefore if you resisteth the power of Saddam Hussein in Iraq you resisteth the ordinance of God. America is not "more ordained" than Iraq. They are both equally "ordained." According to this verse, Saddam Hussein is "not a terror to good works" but a "terror to those who do evil."

This is laughable. I do not agree that governments are "not a terror to good works." If this were so, then Jesus would never have been killed, and His disciples would not have been martyred. For all they did were good works. And, obviously, the government terrorized them for it.

And yes, if one intentionally kills someone while claiming to be a Christian, I hereby accuse them of disobedience to Christ's commands.

Think about the word "Christian" for a minute. It means to be Christ-like. There is nothing Christ-like about killing someone else. Christ never did so, and neither did His disciples. We are to be "imitators of Christ."

We are supposed to "do good to those who hate you." Killing those who hate us is certainly not doing them any good. We are supposed to love our enemies instead.

Slug1
May 9th 2009, 11:13 AM
We are supposed to love our enemies instead.
When a person is selected by God to be placed in a position to be used as a "sword", they should rejoice. God even calls those He selects for such purpose a Minister of God.

Those with a heart to do the Lord's work will be comforted by Him as they do this work. Those that do not are not comforted and will look for everything in the Bible to justify their lack of willingness to be obedient to God.

Jesus has killed (just about all the OT), is killing (Romans 13:4), and will kill (Revelation 19:11-16) when He returns but people refuse to acknowledge this. He is God and we read how He killed and used man to kill in the Bible. During the 3 years He came to earth as a man He was to establish the New Covenant with man but this does not "change" who God is when it comes to doing what is necessary to fulfill His purpose.

satan continues to do all he can to thwart this by many means and one is to kill all those who are God's people and those who serve God and even those who don't serve God. In WWII, satan systematically began to wipeout the Jewish people, God's chosen... ya don't think the reason for killing then was for God to enable Himself to fulfill His purpose for His people?

Back then satan attacked with a limited force against a specific people. Since then he's changed tactics and has decided to attack ALL those who serve God and any who get in his way, with a massive force. One that are born into this plan and raised from birth to kill. We call them terrorists.

Ya don't think God has to do something to keep satan held back so God can fulfill His purposes on earth until He sends His Son back.

In the meantime He has to use man to hold satan back. Both physically and spiritually.

Not all are to fulfill this purpose for God. Many who serve God in this capacity don't have a relationship with God, some refuse to even believe in Him yet when you boil it down, they are serving God.

Romans 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

God will use man to be His avengers until He can return and do it all Himself.

If Paul was to love his enemies the way you say "love your enemies" then why did he inform the Centurion Commander in Acts 23 of the assissination plans against him? The way you and so many more say, "love your enemies" Paul would have traveled and smiled at those assassins when they attacked him.

NO, he used what God has in place to protect His people... police (basically Paul did a biblical 911 call), soldiers, juries, etc.

Also, since I mentioned juries...

When a person is selected to serve on a jury and the trial involves the death penalty... they better do their job cause if they don't and resist this service, they're resisting God and He says that this will bring judgement upon themselves.

Romans 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

This is two fold, the wrongdoer and the one (you, me, anyone) selected by the governement to be used as a sword against the wrongdoer.

When people can differentiate the difference between murder and killing then it's easier to understand. One satan uses to destroy and thwart God's purposes. The other is used by God to enable His purposes. At least one of the methods God has, can, and will use.

beefy
May 9th 2009, 03:42 PM
You really think it was Satan that exterminated the Jews?

Hitler was never Satan. Satan was never Hitler.

Hitler was a human. With feelings, believe it or not.

It deeply saddens me that you would call anyone Satan.

Maybe you didn't understand what it means to follow Christ's example. His love knew no bounds, and it extended to all people, even His enemies. You are supposed to follow His example, the example He set with His life here on earth.

Did you not understand what I told you? According to the very verse you just cited, Nazi Germany was also "ordained by God." You should not resist the power of Nazi Germany, or else you are resisting the ordinance of God.

According to your verse, written by Paul, not God, the Nazi soldiers beareth not the sword in vain. They are not a terror to good works, but only to those who practice evil.

If this were so, how come it was the government that put Jesus to death, when He did only good works?

If this were so, how come it was the authorities who put His disciples to death, when they did only good works?

Obviously, Paul is wrong. The government terrorizing him and his fellow disciples is evidence that the government is a terror to good works.

apothanein kerdos
May 9th 2009, 04:12 PM
Actually, God does not say so. Paul says so. I care more about the words of Jesus than the words of Paul. You should too.


Obviously, Paul is wrong.

Until you can fix those two heresies, I don't think you and I will ever find common ground on this issue.

Slug1
May 9th 2009, 04:54 PM
You really think it was Satan that exterminated the Jews?

Hitler was never Satan. Satan was never Hitler.

Hitler was a human. With feelings, believe it or not.

So when a person in a church heals someone, is it God or that person?

Clearly it is God using the person, same as it is clear Hitler was the "person" satan used.

Slug1
May 9th 2009, 04:59 PM
According to the very verse you just cited, Nazi Germany was also "ordained by God." You should not resist the power of Nazi Germany, or else you are resisting the ordinance of God.

Amen, but was Nazi Germany obedient to God's will and the blessing of authority over Germany or was that government and it's leader... disobedient?

Based on their actions and eventual overthrow by the allied forces, God's blessings ended when Hitler went his own way in power and succumbed to satan and became the person satan used.

Slug1
May 9th 2009, 05:03 PM
Obviously, Paul is wrong.He can't be wrong cause it's wasn't Paul saying all he said, it was God using Him to say all that. To say Paul was wrong is saying God is wrong. All scripture is God inspired.

beefy
May 9th 2009, 06:40 PM
He can't be wrong cause it's wasn't Paul saying all he said, it was God using Him to say all that. To say Paul was wrong is saying God is wrong. All scripture is God inspired.

Like this one?

"If they want to know anything they should ask their husbands at home. It's shameful for a woman to speak in church." 1 Corinthians 14:35

Yeah right. That's not God inspired at all.

If you seem to think that what I am saying is heresy, then why you just ignore what you don't like and anwswer me these to questions...

If Jesus said "do good to those who hate you," is killing those who hate you the same as doing good to them?

If Jesus says, "Love your enemy," is killing your enemies the same as loving them?

Don't avoid my questions. Answer me. You are challenged to answer these two questions.

Slug1
May 9th 2009, 08:06 PM
Yeah right. That's not God inspired at all.

Then there is no talking cause you don't understand context and the fact that each word in the Bible is the Word... Jesus Himself. None of it is wrong or not of God.

apothanein kerdos
May 9th 2009, 10:04 PM
Like this one?

"If they want to know anything they should ask their husbands at home. It's shameful for a woman to speak in church." 1 Corinthians 14:35

Yeah right. That's not God inspired at all.

If you seem to think that what I am saying is heresy, then why you just ignore what you don't like and anwswer me these to questions...

If Jesus said "do good to those who hate you," is killing those who hate you the same as doing good to them?

If Jesus says, "Love your enemy," is killing your enemies the same as loving them?

Don't avoid my questions. Answer me. You are challenged to answer these two questions.

You and I have different faiths and different views of the Bible. What point is there in discussing anything with anyone who doesn't accept the Bible?

The writings of Paul are just as inspired as the sayings of Christ. Both were said by the same Spirit.

Slug1
May 10th 2009, 03:31 AM
Besides Beefy, Jesus is waiting for His enemies to be put under His feet.

beefy
May 10th 2009, 07:07 AM
Since you were unable to answer my questions, it has made it apparent to me that you agree with me, and cannot refute my logic.

Unfortunately for you, you were unable to answer even two simple questions.

If I present to you a mere two questions about the command of Jesus, and you cannot answer them, how many more commands might you be confused about?

God bless you. I pray that you understand His words soon. There is not much time left.

Slug1
May 10th 2009, 01:43 PM
The problem isn't the answering of two questions, it's saying that parts of the Bible are wrong.

Which parts are wrong, those parts that don't line up with your opinion?

The Word must be taken if full context, not limited to posting a single scripture and saying... this isn't from God and this scripture is from God.

apothanein kerdos
May 10th 2009, 03:14 PM
Since you were unable to answer my questions, it has made it apparent to me that you agree with me, and cannot refute my logic.

Unfortunately for you, you were unable to answer even two simple questions.

If I present to you a mere two questions about the command of Jesus, and you cannot answer them, how many more commands might you be confused about?

God bless you. I pray that you understand His words soon. There is not much time left.


That's a logical error (since you're bringing logic into this), called an "argument from silence." You're assuming that our unwillingness (not inability) to answer your question means we must be unable to answer it or that we agree. Rather, there are a multitude of reasons of why we potentially wouldn't answer it.

For me, personally, I see no reason discussing Scripture with someone who doesn't understand Scripture to begin with. It's simply a frustrating exercise that produces no fruit.

I use a hermeneutic that requires me to use the entire Bible in order to interpret different passages - since you've nullified everything in the Bible as "wrong" except the red letters (and who's to say you believe all of those are true), what's the point?

I'm sure if I bring up Revelation where Jesus returns and kills a lot of people, you'll say that the author was wrong. If I point out Jesus going through the temple and violently kicking people out, you'll say this was added as legend. If I mention how Jesus ordered His disciples to carry swords with them and only had Peter hold his in order to fulfill prophecy, you'll either say He was conflicted and wrong in ordering the swords, or that this is merely conjecture and focus solely on the fact that He had Peter hold back his sword (which of course begs the question, why would a pacifist allow His disciples to walk around with swords?).

Do see where I'm going? There isn't much point in debating someone who doesn't even accept the Bible as true.

Slug1
May 10th 2009, 11:45 PM
I'm sure if I bring up Revelation where Jesus returns and kills a lot of people, you'll say that the author was wrong.

Hey, I mentioned this already and was ignored.



If I point out Jesus going through the temple and violently kicking people out, // If I mention how Jesus ordered His disciples to carry swords with them and only had Peter hold his in order to fulfill prophecy, // why would a pacifist allow His disciples to walk around with swords?).
I was gonna bring this in next :P

apothanein kerdos
May 11th 2009, 03:28 AM
Hey, I mentioned this already and was ignored.

I was gonna bring this in next :P


:lol:

I saw that, which is why I brought it up. Sorry if I stole your thunder. :)

Your Advert here


Hosted by Webnet77