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View Full Version : Discussion What does this mean, Jesus nailed the ordinances to His cross?



Sojourner
Apr 24th 2009, 10:49 AM
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross..." Romans 2:14 Anyone wish to expound on what this means and the ramafications relating to us?

-SEEKING-
Apr 24th 2009, 12:50 PM
By the way it's Colossians 2:14. Hope this helps.

"Col. 2:14 the record of debt that stood against us. In the Greco-Roman world, the “record of debt” (Gk. cheirographon) was a written note of indebtedness. Paul uses this as a word picture to characterize each person's indebtedness to God because of sin. God himself has mercifully resolved this problem for all who put their faith in Jesus by taking this note and nailing it to the cross, where Jesus paid the debt. The image comes from the notice fastened to a cross by the Roman authorities, declaring the crime for which the criminal was being executed (see John 19:19–22)."

Sojourner
Apr 24th 2009, 01:34 PM
By the way it's Colossians 2:14.Of course you realize I knew that, uh? Just a slip! I will read you post in earnest when I get up from my nap. :lol:

Tomlane
Apr 24th 2009, 01:36 PM
When Christ died on the Cross, all physical ordinances such as water baptism, the Passover Supper, divers washings {baptisms} Sabbath keeping, all 600 and all other ordinances including the law were done away with. All were types and Shadows of Christ. Now that we have the reality, Christ and if we put our faith in Him completely, minus any physical ordinances we have salvation. God then sees Christ's fulfilling the Law and all of it requirements paid in full by Christ's righteousness for us. That makes us just as Holy and righteous as God himself except for our flesh that will go to the grave. However those who place themselves under works such as water baptism will not find grace for salvation because grace and works are against each other. If a many works for salvation in any other way then he has broken the law just by being born into sin and can't please God with works. Also we can't please God with any kind of ordinances after being born again, other then in spirit only, for grace and water laws still apply after salvation because again the law and ordinances are still abolished. How that effects modern Christianity puts it in the toilet because man has invented its own ordinances such as communion, Sunday Sabbath, water baptism as a show of faith, with it denominational holy days; none of this is found in scripture. We can't please God with works before salvation and we can't please God with works {physical ordinances} after salvation that are done with the flesh for all ordinances require works of the flesh.

Philippians 3:3 *For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Here is the proof:

Ephesians 2:15 *Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Since through faith we have peace with God, why return again to the elements of the law?

Galatians 4:9 *But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?


Romans 3:27 *Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 *Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


These two verses alone put man's ordinances of none effect because if we can't be justified before salvation by works, wither they are so called Christian ordinances, which by the way are not found in Scripture. So they are not going to be any more value after salvation. God wants us to walk in his word after salvations such as having unity of the spirit. We are not under any kind of Bondage after Salvation. We are to do all in Christ's name {Our family name} after salvation. Not many do for the identify with other names.

Colossians 3:17 *And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.


These are the kind of commandments believers are to be subject to. God says its our responsibility to find out his will with this next commandment.

2 Timothy 2:15 *Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Here is another example:

2 Timothy 2:16 *But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

God also does not want us to add so called Christian ordinances for if he did He would have told us to. It would also been against His instructions for us in the Church.

Romans 10:17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 14:23 *And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I hope the above may be a blessing to those with water on their heart.

Tomlane

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 01:45 PM
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross..." Romans 2:14 Anyone wish to expound on what this means and the ramafications relating to us?

Rom 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

If Christ by his death is dead to the law then we through his death are also dead to the law as it is written.

Rom 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Br. Barnabas
Apr 24th 2009, 03:19 PM
Paul here is making a reference to a Second Temple Jewish belief that there were angels writing down every sin and deed that people did. But when Jesus dies and is raised for us he takes away the books and pens of the angels which are the powers and authorities in verse 15. Jesus takes their jobs from them making them a public spectacle. Some debate where these angels were in heaven or hell/hades/she'ol/under the earth.

RogerW
Apr 24th 2009, 03:54 PM
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross..." Romans 2:14 Anyone wish to expound on what this means and the ramafications relating to us?

Greetings Sojourner,

In ancient times the way a written bond, or debt was cancelled was by driving a nail through it. In this way the obligation was paid, or fulfilled. If this is what is meant, this expression means that the obligation of the Jewish laws ceased on the death of Jesus, as if He had taken them and nailed them to His own cross, in the manner in which a bond or debt was cancelled.

He "blotted out" the transgression contained in the law of commandments and ordinances that He might reconcile us to God.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Many Blessings,
RW

Tomlane
Apr 24th 2009, 06:12 PM
RW, would you agree that when people today state we have christian ordinances like water baptism, wouldn't that be adding to God's word since only water baptism {as a washng} was mentioned after the law was nailed to the cross and all ordinances were abolished?

Thanks, I will look forward to your answer, :D:bounce:

Tomlane

Sojourner
Apr 24th 2009, 07:19 PM
RW, would you agree that when people today state we have christian ordinances like water baptism, wouldn't that be adding to God's word since only water baptism {as a washng} was mentioned after the law was nailed to the cross and all ordinances were abolished? TomlaneExcept for one thing, the Lord commanded it.

RogerW
Apr 24th 2009, 07:46 PM
RW, would you agree that when people today state we have christian ordinances like water baptism, wouldn't that be adding to God's word since only water baptism {as a washng} was mentioned after the law was nailed to the cross and all ordinances were abolished?

Thanks, I will look forward to your answer, :D:bounce:

Tomlane

Greetings Tom,

While I agree with you that water baptism is not necessary for salvation, I cannot agree that Christ did not institute water baptism and the Lord's Supper. I find biblical support for both these ordinances Christ gave His universal church during her sojourn in time. The problem is not with the ordinances, but rather with how we interpret or misinterpret the ordinances. Christ said, "Go ye therefore....baptizing them" and "This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me"..."ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

Many Blessings,
RW

Tomlane
Apr 24th 2009, 07:48 PM
Sojourner (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=11117), Just because you said The Lord commanded it; does not make it so. That is just an opinion. Do you base your religion on opinions?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Can you prove it Sojourner?

Tomlane :rolleyes:

Sojourner
Apr 24th 2009, 08:00 PM
Sojourner (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=11117), Just because you said The Lord commanded it; does not make it so. That is just an opinion. Do you base your religion on opinions?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Can you prove it Sojourner?

Tomlane :rolleyes::) Hello! Jesus said, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 That's in the mission field and a local church. I guess I'm not understanding, how clearer could it be. :)

Tomlane
Apr 24th 2009, 08:04 PM
Hi RW, I was afraid you were going to state that. :cry:

But this is what this place is for my friend. :D

Here is why I believe that doctrine is in error. The scriptures you quoted {and I do thank you for using scripture} is that the Kingdom was still being offered to Israel, when the Church as not even revealed yet as the Lord gave Paul that job to do. Can't you see the Lord kept the Kingdom separate from the church? That is why Paul gave the mystery of the Church while Christ fulfilled prophesy concerning the Kingdom. Water baptism was for repentance and never for salvation nor was it an outward sign of an inward work as the Baptist like to chant. Also you don't have the signs that were given for that command that are found in Mark 16.

The way I see this misunderstanding is that people don't realize they are free from ordinances because we are under grace. Also, all ordinances were abolished and it never says all except for water and the so called Lord supper that is really the Passover feast that has been so twisted out of meaning. I'm sure you have heard these position many times and you're going to cling to it like a lost brother. Oh well. :hmm:

Sorry RW, but your proof doesn't hold water. :D

But I sure appreciate your reply.

Tomlane

Tomlane
Apr 24th 2009, 08:21 PM
Hi again Sojourner, and thank you for your quick reply.


Hi again Hello! Jesus said, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 That's in the mission field and a local church. I guess I'm not understanding, how clearer could it be. :)

I had a feeling that was going to be your answer.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

How come you ignore the above scripture because that says you have to have these signs that will follow those who do this command and you don't have a one of them?

The reason why is because this was doing business for Israel and not the church. The church was none existent at that time. That job was given to the new kid on the block, Paul the Apostle and Paul made it plan he baptized very few. The reason being that through inspired revelation Paul learned water baptism was abolished.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

We have peace with God because Christ did it all for us. How can you add to perfection unless its with unbelief?

1 Corinthians 1:14 ¶I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 ¶For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Shouldn't we be more concerned with preaching the cross to them that are perishing then showing how we have confidence in our flesh and do physical ordinances that water down the word of Salvation?Wouldn't we do better to worship God in spirit rather than with physical ordinances that have been abolished?

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.


Thanks again Sojourner, I do really appreciate your answer.

Tomlane

BroRog
Apr 24th 2009, 08:27 PM
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross..." Romans 2:14 Anyone wish to expound on what this means and the ramafications relating to us?

Hopefully you are talking about Ephesians 2:14 or what I am about to say won't make much sense.

Here is the passage in context.

But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both [groups into] one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, [which is] the Law of commandments [contained] in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, [thus] establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. Ephesians 2:13-18

I think the previous few sentences are Paul's build up to his concluding statement of this paragraph. He makes the point that both Jews and Gentiles have access to the Father via the Spirit. Notice the building blocks of Paul's case, which I will form as a list.


1. Jesus brought near those who were once far away.

2. Jesus is our peace, uniting two groups into one new group.

3. Jesus metaphorically broke down the dividing wall.

4. The two groups became united in the body of Christ.

I believe the two groups were the Jews and the Gentiles. The Gentiles, who were far away, could not unite with the Jews and maintain their cultural/national/ethnic identity because in order for a Gentile to gain access to God he had to stop being a Gentile and become a Jew.

During this time there were Gentiles who loved and feared God and lived according to moral principles, but did not convert to Judaism. These were called "God fearers." These were not allowed to have access to the temple, even though they love and respected God, due to the fact that a dividing wall existed, which kept the Gentiles from gaining access under penalty of death. We read about this in Acts 21:28 where some accused Paul of bringing a Gentile past the wall into the temple.

On the wall was a sign, which contained a written decree (an ordinance) specifying that Gentiles were subject to the death penalty if they entered beyond the dividing wall.

Paul is saying that Christ reconciled the two groups, i.e. Jews and Gentiles making them into one new group through his blood on the cross and in Christ, both Jew and Gentile have access to the Father in the Spirit. Metaphorically speaking, Christ destroyed the dividing wall that separated Jews from Gentiles and nailed the decree specifying "death to those Gentiles who enter" to his cross. Gentiles didn't need to become Jews, and thus enter the temple grounds in order to gain access to the Father, because Christ made it possible for both Gentiles and Jews to gain access through the Spirit of God.

Sojourner
Apr 24th 2009, 08:31 PM
Hopefully you are talking about Ephesians 2:14Yea, I don't know where I got Romans from. I am reading your post.

Tomlane
Apr 24th 2009, 09:11 PM
BroRog, you gave an excellent explanation of Ephesians 2 until you insisted Paul was speaking in Metaphors. The only reason I can think anyone would twist a literal meaning in a Metaphoric state is so you can slide a few ordinances into something has has such positive statements. Please tell me I'm wrong and you have a very good reason for adding that to God's word. I'm most curious to know how you justify doing that.

Thanks, Tomlane

RogerW
Apr 24th 2009, 09:45 PM
Hi RW, I was afraid you were going to state that. :cry:

But this is what this place is for my friend. :D

Here is why I believe that doctrine is in error. The scriptures you quoted {and I do thank you for using scripture} is that the Kingdom was still being offered to Israel, when the Church as not even revealed yet as the Lord gave Paul that job to do. Can't you see the Lord kept the Kingdom separate from the church? That is why Paul gave the mystery of the Church while Christ fulfilled prophesy concerning the Kingdom. Water baptism was for repentance and never for salvation nor was it an outward sign of an inward work as the Baptist like to chant. Also you don't have the signs that were given for that command that are found in Mark 16.

The way I see this misunderstanding is that people don't realize they are free from ordinances because we are under grace. Also, all ordinances were abolished and it never says all except for water and the so called Lord supper that is really the Passover feast that has been so twisted out of meaning. I'm sure you have heard these position many times and you're going to cling to it like a lost brother. Oh well. :hmm:

Sorry RW, but your proof doesn't hold water. :D

But I sure appreciate your reply.

Tomlane

Well Tom for someone who insists that others offer opinion with Scripture, I'm afraid I find your reply lacking. This is your opinion, and you're welcome to it. But I don't want to further derail this thread, so this is all I will say and leave you with the words of Christ, and a question for you to ponder, "I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"...why do you suppose Christ didn't tell Peter "I will my kingdom and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"...IF Christ was preaching the Kingdom and Paul the church?

Many Blessings,
RW

BroRog
Apr 25th 2009, 12:40 AM
BroRog, you gave an excellent explanation of Ephesians 2 until you insisted Paul was speaking in Metaphors. The only reason I can think anyone would twist a literal meaning in a Metaphoric state is so you can slide a few ordinances into something has has such positive statements. Please tell me I'm wrong and you have a very good reason for adding that to God's word. I'm most curious to know how you justify doing that.

Thanks, Tomlane

Tom,

A metaphor is a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity. (Princeton.edu)

There is nothing wrong with a metaphor. It's quite Biblical and when we find them, we are not twisting the scriptures if the author, Paul for instance, intended to use one. Metaphors are quite common and we all use them.

Let me show you a metaphor from Matthew's gospel to illustrate the idea.

Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. Matthew 17:1-2

In this passage, the face of Jesus is being compared to the sun. Matthew intends for the reader to, first get an image of the sun in the mind, then make a comparison between that image and what the face of Jesus might have been like. If you have glanced at the sun (not recommended) then you will have an idea of how bright Jesus' face appeared to the disciples.

In the Ephesians passage, Paul first identifies a resemblance between a Jewish person's access to God via the temple and a believer's access to God via the spirit. And whereas the Gentiles were literally kept from the temple by a wall, they were not denied access to God via the spirit because Jesus provided a way that both Jews and Gentiles could gain access to God through the shedding of his blood on the cross. And because this is true, it was as if the separation decree died with Christ on the cross.

Jesus didn't literally drive a nail through the sign to kill it. A decree can't literally die. But the decree was rendered null and void and it was as good as "dead" because of what Jesus did for us.

******

Something else could be said at this point and I want to be clear that what I am about to say isn't directed at you personally.

I have noticed a phenomenon in our society whereby people mistake the concept of "literal" with the concept of "actual." I get this all the time. People will say to me, "you said it was metaphorical, you must think it didn't actually happen." But that isn't what I mean by "metaphorical". To say something is a metaphor, a simile, or an analogy, doesn't mean it's untrue, didn't happen, or isn't real.

When John says that Jesus had a two-edged sword coming out of his mouth, he isn't saying that Jesus is a fantastical creature that doesn't actually exist. He is making an analogy between the content that comes out of his mouth, i.e. his words, and the effect a sword has in battle. John has found some similarity and resemblance between what Jesus' words accomplish and what a sword accomplishes.

And so, the Bible employs figures of speech such as metaphor, and simile to paint word pictures that speak truth in ways that make truth accessible to us.

(okay, end of rant. :D )

THOM
Apr 25th 2009, 01:11 AM
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross..." Romans 2:14 Anyone wish to expound on what this means and the ramafications relating to us?

Sojourner, your invitation reminds me of some of the words from a song that I dearly love; you've got to use your Spiritual eye and hear to receive this:


"Listen to the Hammering, and Rejoice,

Listen to the Hammering, and THANK JESUS;

Listen to the Hammering,

for GOD has Taken Everything,

That was against us,

and Nailed it to HIS CROSS!"


and then another that says,


"It was for Crimes that I had done,

HE Hung upon that Tree;

(All the time showing),

Amazing Pity, and GRACE Unknown,

And LOVE beyond Degree!"

Sojourner
Apr 25th 2009, 10:41 AM
Sojourner (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=11117), Just because you said The Lord commanded it; does not make it so. That is just an opinion. Do you base your religion on opinions?Son you've been down by the wharf to long, come inside and rest a spell. ;)

Sojourner
Apr 25th 2009, 10:43 AM
Sojourner, your invitation reminds me of some of the words from a song that I dearly love; you've got to use your Spiritual eye and hear to receive this:


"Listen to the Hammering, and Rejoice,


Listen to the Hammering, and THANK JESUS;


Listen to the Hammering,


for GOD has Taken Everything,


That was against us,


and Nailed it to HIS CROSS!"



and then another that says,





"It was for Crimes that I had done,




HE Hung upon that Tree;




(All the time showing),




Amazing Pity, and GRACE Unknown,




And LOVE beyond Degree!"Truth and meaningful! Thank you.

Tomlane
Apr 25th 2009, 11:12 AM
Sojourne, (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=11117)

LOL, I'll give you an example why all of God's commands don't apply to us.

God told Noah to build an ark. So are you going to build one too? Why don't you come out of the water, get dried off and see how pretty it is out here on the wharf out of the water?

If you really believe Christ nailed the law to the cross, why would those who insist upon modern day ordinances such as water baptism know how to rightly divide the word? It has that nasty word dispensation in it! Paul used it four times, you going to tell him to come in off the wharf too? lol

That was funny Sojourn, :spin: its nice to wake up with a laugh in the morning.

Tomlane

Sojourner
Apr 25th 2009, 11:16 AM
That was funny Sojourn, :spin: its nice to wake up with a laugh in the morning. TomlaneGlad I could brighten you day. ;)

Tomlane
Apr 25th 2009, 11:20 AM
BroRog, thank you for your explaintion. However as important as it was that Christ nailed the law to the cross, I do believe using the metaphorically in there is not a good thing to do. Because all of grace and salvation is based on the sacrifice Christ made on the cross to make salvation a reality. Either Christ nailed the Law literally or He didn't and if he didn't then no one has salvation. Also it can confuse a baby in Christ. Really a poor choice of words BroRog. That is my opinion for what its worth.

Tomlane

BroRog
Apr 25th 2009, 08:30 PM
Either Christ nailed the Law literally or He didn't and if he didn't then no one has salvation.Tomlane

Hi Tom,

I guess I don't understand the term "literal" the way you are using it. In your view, what was actually hanging on the cross? Jesus' body wasn't it? :)

Tomlane
Apr 25th 2009, 09:00 PM
BroRog, I need to tell you I was in the wrong when you stated the law was nailed to the cross metaphorically. Because you are absolutely correct. Because no nail or hammer was used. So in that makes you correct and myself I'm glad to say in the wrong.

That was just Paul's way of describing a literal event. What I mean by literal, my definition means it actually accrued. I believe Paul put it more accurate light when he said the law contained in ordinances was abolished as found in Ephesians 2:15.

Again sir, my mistake and you are correct. Duh! :pp

Tomlane

Sojourner
Apr 25th 2009, 10:01 PM
BroRog, you are absolutely correct. Again sir, my mistake and you are correct. Duh! :pp

TomlaneUh, you never told me that I was right. :rolleyes:

BroRog
Apr 25th 2009, 10:03 PM
BroRog, I need to tell you I was in the wrong when you stated the law was nailed to the cross metaphorically. Because you are absolutely correct. Because no nail or hammer was used. So in that makes you correct and myself I'm glad to say in the wrong.

That was just Paul's way of describing a literal event. What I mean by literal, my definition means it actually accrued. I believe Paul put it more accurate light when he said the law contained in ordinances was abolished as found in Ephesians 2:15.

Again sir, my mistake and you are correct. Duh! :pp

Tomlane

Yes, I thought that's what you meant. And I agree with you. It actually did occur. :)

I wasn't going to say, "you are wrong and I am right" because people can use language in whatever way they want. And it happens that some people use the term "literal" when they mean "actual" and I recognized that this may be the case and that's why I asked.

Thanks for your patience with me. :)

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