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manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 02:12 PM
I actually start this thread out of confusion asking a question to learn.

I am actually baffled by what I now see as a paradox.


Mainstream Christian doctrine teaches that believers are no longer under the law and that the law has been done away with. However, it is also taught that believers still need grace from God.


I am finding it hard to grasp why grace is needed if the reason for grace in the first place is no longer in place. The one thing that determine why grace was needed is no longer applicable as some say. Hence, accountability to any spelled out standard is absent.

So with all this being said. Why is grace still needed if the Torah has been done away with.

One reality I discovered was that Grace was always avaliable from the first sin of mankind? Grace is not a new revelation. David himself pleaded and thank God for His favor and grace.

A few points that go unresolved......
1. As an unbeliever, does he recieve grace because he was consider a transgressor against what, _____________?

2.If a believer backslides, what determines that he has backslid. Is it because transgression has once again began to dominate him. If so by what standard is this measured by?

3.What will determine a person guilty of recieving the eternal penalty of eternal damnation?

This is an actual plea for understanding.

I will not respond or rebuttal in any fashion. I will ask for clarity.

NotMyOwn
Apr 24th 2009, 02:31 PM
The law was given to show what sin was and what it would take to have communion with God. The law was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross, it doesn't mean that the law ended, it meant that we didn't have to follow the letter of the law perfectly.

Because mankind is still sinful, we need grace in order to have a relationship with God. If grace wasn't available, we would die in our sin and therefore we would have no eternal life with God.

Walstib
Apr 24th 2009, 02:53 PM
I actually start this thread out of confusion asking a question to learn.

I am actually baffled by what I now see as a paradox.

Mainstream Christian doctrine teaches that believers are no longer under the law and that the law has been done away with. However, it is also taught that believers still need grace from God.
The way you just say "the law" it is hard for me to answer. Certainly not the law of the Spirit of Life. There is always law in my view but one's relationship to God can change, leading to a change of one's relationship towards the law.

I am finding it hard to grasp why grace is needed if the reason for grace in the first place is no longer in place. The one thing that determine why grace was needed is no longer applicable as some say. Hence, accountability to any spelled out standard is absent.
No longer in place is different than how we are reckoned according to it. It does not mean law does not exist.

How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! (Psa 32:2 NASB)

just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Rom 4:6-9 NASB)
So with all this being said. Why is grace still needed if the Torah has been done away with.

One does not need to transgress the law to fall short of the glory of God. We are not God and by that alone need His grace for everything from breathing to salvation.

A few points that go unresolved......
1. As an unbeliever, does he recieve grace because he was consider a transgressor against what, _____________?
The eternal desire of God toward us as individuals. The unwritten law that is applicable in all circumstances. Always in agreement with the precepts found at the root of any written law one can follow in their heart. In Spirit and truth.

2.If a believer backslides, what determines that he has backslid. Is it because transgression has once again began to dominate him. If so by what standard is this measured by?

Flesh verses the Spirit. Considering also the relationship of the flesh to the law.


But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. (Gal 5:16-18 NASB)

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord. (1Co 15:51-58 NASB)

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. (Rom 7:25 NASB)
3.What will determine a person guilty of recieving the eternal penalty of eternal damnation?
The righteous judgment of Jesus Christ at the end. It's all in the books and about relationship I think. Who sits down at the Master's wedding feast?

Peace,
Joe

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2009, 06:30 PM
I actually start this thread out of confusion asking a question to learn.

I am actually baffled by what I now see as a paradox.


Mainstream Christian doctrine teaches that believers are no longer under the law and that the law has been done away with. However, it is also taught that believers still need grace from God.


I am finding it hard to grasp why grace is needed if the reason for grace in the first place is no longer in place. The one thing that determine why grace was needed is no longer applicable as some say. Hence, accountability to any spelled out standard is absent.

So with all this being said. Why is grace still needed if the Torah has been done away with.

One reality I discovered was that Grace was always avaliable from the first sin of mankind? Grace is not a new revelation. David himself pleaded and thank God for His favor and grace.

A few points that go unresolved......
1. As an unbeliever, does he recieve grace because he was consider a transgressor against what, _____________?

2.If a believer backslides, what determines that he has backslid. Is it because transgression has once again began to dominate him. If so by what standard is this measured by?

3.What will determine a person guilty of recieving the eternal penalty of eternal damnation?

This is an actual plea for understanding.

I will not respond or rebuttal in any fashion. I will ask for clarity.

Even with Gods grace the law could not save, but by faith in Christ and Gods grace we are saved.

Jn 1:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

We will always need Christ, the grace of God.

Jn 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And the Word was made flesh, And dwelt among us, (And we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace And truth.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

faithfulfriend
Apr 24th 2009, 07:11 PM
I actually start this thread out of confusion asking a question to learn.

I am actually baffled by what I now see as a paradox.


Mainstream Christian doctrine teaches that believers are no longer under the law and that the law has been done away with. However, it is also taught that believers still need grace from God.

The word law has different definitions depending on what passage you are speaking of. But we are no longer under the law of Moses, but the law of Christ.


I am finding it hard to grasp why grace is needed if the reason for grace in the first place is no longer in place. The one thing that determine why grace was needed is no longer applicable as some say. Hence, accountability to any spelled out standard is absent.

Grace is the power to live completely free from sin [sinless]. Grace is not an excuse to fall [sin], but rather the power to live above sin completely. That is why I need God's grace, and it will always be needed.


So with all this being said. Why is grace still needed if the Torah has been done away with.

One reality I discovered was that Grace was always avaliable from the first sin of mankind? Grace is not a new revelation. David himself pleaded and thank God for His favor and grace.

I think I answered your question above....


A few points that go unresolved......
1. As an unbeliever, does he recieve grace because he was consider a transgressor against what, _____________?

The grace of God gives an individual the ability to live free from sin.

If you transgress against the law of God....that is sin. Sin is imputed on a relative basis, NOT an absolute basis.


2.If a believer backslides, what determines that he has backslid. Is it because transgression has once again began to dominate him. If so by what standard is this measured by?

A believer backslides through the transgression of the law of God, which is called sin. For example, Judas fell by transgression [sin]:

Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell,

What is sin?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.



3.What will determine a person guilty of recieving the eternal penalty of eternal damnation?

Sin.

Take a look at what Christ will say to those who commit sin:

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity [sin].



This is an actual plea for understanding.

I will not respond or rebuttal in any fashion. I will ask for clarity.

I don't believe there will be anyone else who will agree with my points, but they remain the truth.

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 24th 2009, 07:21 PM
Even with Gods grace the law could not save, but by faith in Christ and Gods grace we are saved.

Jn 1:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

We will always need Christ, the grace of God.

Jn 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And the Word was made flesh, And dwelt among us, (And we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace And truth.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yep,

Jesus Christ is the Grace of God...fully God.. fully God manifested in the flesh... He is the Eternal Word.. that always Was....and always Is... and always Has Been...

He is the Gift.. the Person of Jesus The Christ...

do you 'know' Him Today?

kenramse
Apr 24th 2009, 08:22 PM
Grace is unmerited favor. It is a gift...a gift! Something that is given that has not been deserved or earned is a gift. The only requirement of a gift is to receive it, to acknowledge that you have taken possession of the gift and have made it your own.

The law is a list of ordinances, rules, directives to follow, and the consequences both of following the list of ordinances resulting in blessing or failing to fulfill the ordinances, resulting in cursing.

Because no one except Jesus Christ has fulfilled the ordinances, the law, the rules and directives to follow, all are cursed.

Jesus is God's gift. In Him is grace and truth and eternal life. When you receive God's gift, you take possession of all that is in Jesus Christ, including deliverance from all law, both blessings and cursings. When you receive Christ, He becomes your possession and all that He is becomes yours. He has fulfilled the law, subsequently the law has no dominance over you any longer. The day of Pentecost was the celebration of the receiving of the law to man from God at Mt. Sinai through Moses. God chose to send the Holy Spirit to man on this day as well to write His law on the hearts of those who receive Jesus. So now with Jesus as our possession, we have the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

It is not a paradox. It is a choice: Grace, the freely given gift which all can receive, or the Law of blessings and cursings.

There is a new law as there is a new covenant. It is written in the blood of Jesus.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

THOM
Apr 25th 2009, 02:18 AM
I actually start this thread out of confusion asking a question to learn.

I am actually baffled by what I now see as a paradox.


Mainstream Christian doctrine teaches that believers are no longer under the law and that the law has been done away with. However, it is also taught that believers still need grace from God.


I am finding it hard to grasp why grace is needed if the reason for grace in the first place is no longer in place. The one thing that determine why grace was needed is no longer applicable as some say. Hence, accountability to any spelled out standard is absent.

So with all this being said. Why is grace still needed if the Torah has been done away with.

GOD's "grace", unmerited favor, undeserved favor, unearned favor, etc., has been "needed" since GOD, "breathed into" mankind's "nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". Without that "breath of life", we'd cease to exist; it is that "breath of life" that made/make each one of us "a living soul".


Now, with that foundation, the "Why is grace still needed if the Torah has been done away with", that you're referring to is because of sin, not (just because of) the law of Moses and/or the fulfillment of the law of Moses. . .by JESUS CHRIST. . .because not everyone is IN CHRIST, or know about the law of Moses.

After Adam allowed sin into the world, GOD began showing Grace. GOD also began showing mercy; and GOD loved us enough to Create us, in the first place.

So then, after sin, The Grace of GOD, became the sum total of GOD'S LOVE and HIS MERCY.

It looks like this:



GOD'S LOVE
+GOD'S MERCY
=GOD'S GRACE


Here's how it worked with Adam (and Eve):

GOD'S LOVE towards them: "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make..."

GOD'S MERCY to them: GOD offered a Blood Sacrifice for them ("Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.").

GOD'S GRACE exhibited: ". . .make coats of skins, and clothed them."




A few points that go unresolved......
1. As an unbeliever, does he recieve grace because he was consider a transgressor against what, _____________?

2.If a believer backslides, what determines that he has backslid. Is it because transgression has once again began to dominate him. If so by what standard is this measured by?

3.What will determine a person guilty of recieving the eternal penalty of eternal damnation?

This is an actual plea for understanding.

I will not respond or rebuttal in any fashion. I will ask for clarity.Remember that GRACE is nothing more than GOD'S LOVE + GOD'S MERCY, added together. #1) ALL Sin, first and foremost is against GOD; #2) Backsliders do so willingly; he/she is measured by their willingness to backslid; and #3) Physically dying in a state of Unbelief.

(And just to see if anyone read this, and was paying attention), Did you know that even Hell shows the grace of GOD?

Teke
Apr 25th 2009, 02:37 PM
I actually start this thread out of confusion asking a question to learn.

I am actually baffled by what I now see as a paradox.


Mainstream Christian doctrine teaches that believers are no longer under the law and that the law has been done away with. However, it is also taught that believers still need grace from God.


I am finding it hard to grasp why grace is needed if the reason for grace in the first place is no longer in place. The one thing that determine why grace was needed is no longer applicable as some say. Hence, accountability to any spelled out standard is absent.

Grace is the gift of God's own presence and action in His creation.
Through grace, God forgives sins and transforms the believer into His image and likeness. Grace is not merely unmerited favor - an attitude of God toward the believer. Grace is God's uncreated energy and therefore truly experiential. A Christian is saved through grace, which is a gift of God and not a reward for good works. However, because grace changes a person, he or she will manifest the effects of grace through righteous living. See John 1:17, Rom. 5:21, Eph. 1:7, 2:8, 2 Thess. 1:12, 1 Pet. 5:5


So with all this being said. Why is grace still needed if the Torah has been done away with.

Torah is a written witness by God's people, that what I've just posted IMHO, about "grace", is true.


One reality I discovered was that Grace was always avaliable from the first sin of mankind? Grace is not a new revelation. David himself pleaded and thank God for His favor and grace.

Indeed.


A few points that go unresolved......
1. As an unbeliever, does he recieve grace because he was consider a transgressor against what, _____________?

God.


2.If a believer backslides, what determines that he has backslid. Is it because transgression has once again began to dominate him. If so by what standard is this measured by?

God's standard for that person.


3.What will determine a person guilty of recieving the eternal penalty of eternal damnation?

God at the final judgment.

th1bill
Apr 25th 2009, 11:22 PM
I actually start this thread out of confusion asking a question to learn.

I am actually baffled by what I now see as a paradox.


Mainstream Christian doctrine teaches that believers are no longer under the law and that the law has been done away with. However, it is also taught that believers still need grace from God.
... The Christian, while still needing the Law as a teacher, is not under the Law but has come under the same grace from God that Abraham was under. The Lost man is still bound to the Law and cannot, short of accepting Christ, loose him or herself from it.


I am finding it hard to grasp why grace is needed if the reason for grace in the first place is no longer in place. The one thing that determine why grace was needed is no longer applicable as some say. Hence, accountability to any spelled out standard is absent.
... But, as explained above, the standard is in place and will only be removed from an individual as grace is applied. This statement of course is found offensive by many and cannot be understood with out a thorough study of the Christian Manifesto, Paul's letter to the Romans. You see, though we are not bound to the Law it is still God's Standard and as such is a good Yard Stick for us to measure our lives against.

So with all this being said. Why is grace still needed if the Torah has been done away with.
... Having already covered that I will only, once more state that the Torah is not included in the Bible and while I understand that you mean the Books of the Law it is very important to always be calling apples, apples and not oranges, it really cuts down on misunderstandings. The Books of the Law, the first five are called the Pentateuch, and is pronounced, pen-ta-tuke.

One reality I discovered was that Grace was always avaliable from the first sin of mankind? Grace is not a new revelation. David himself pleaded and thank God for His favor and grace.

A few points that go unresolved......
1. As an unbeliever, does he recieve grace because he was consider a transgressor against what, _____________?
... The Law.

2.If a believer backslides, what determines that he has backslid. Is it because transgression has once again began to dominate him. If so by what standard is this measured by?
... The answers you will receive will depend on the doctrinal preference of the giver.

3.What will determine a person guilty of recieving the eternal penalty of eternal damnation?
... The Law.
This is an actual plea for understanding.

I will not respond or rebuttal in any fashion. I will ask for clarity.[/quote]
... I hope this helps.

bagofseed
Apr 26th 2009, 12:01 AM
Some people seek to use the law for change.

Change does not come from the law.

Change is a work of salvation.

Salvation through Sanctification (being set apart to God) only comes through the work of the Holy Spirit, God within us.

Having begun in grace and faith through Jesus Christ, we should not seek to be completed through the shadow of mosaic law.
It is only the written law that is fulfilled and removed, it stood as our just judge condemning us to death and was satisfied with our death, for in Christ Jesus we died. This removed us from the jurisdiction of the mosaic law. But we are all under Gods Law, that is the law of Christ.
This law is about our heart towards our brothers.
This is the only standard now for those who have faith in Jesus.
Under Moses if you committed murder you where guilty.
Now under Jesus if you are angry in your heart towards your brother you are guilty of murder.

If it is not Love it is sin.

God's standard of Love is not something you can measure.
You can have a messed up friend who does many things wrong but he honestly loves.
You can have another friend who does most everything right but his heart is really not for you.

1Sa (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=1Sa&chapter=16#7) 16:7 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Sa&chapter=16&verse=7)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Don’t be impressed by his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. God does not view things the way men do. People look on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”
2Co (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=2Co&chapter=5#12) 5:12 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=2Co&chapter=5&verse=12)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to be proud of us, so that you may be able to answer those who take pride in outward appearance and not in what is in the heart.
2Ti (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=2Ti&chapter=3#5) 3:5 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=2Ti&chapter=3&verse=5)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its power. So avoid people like these.


Why return to the tutor, when you have the Master?

I am praying for you.

Butch5
Apr 26th 2009, 12:47 AM
manichunter---I actually start this thread out of confusion asking a question to learn.

I am actually baffled by what I now see as a paradox.


Mainstream Christian doctrine teaches that believers are no longer under the law and that the law has been done away with. However, it is also taught that believers still need grace from God.


I am finding it hard to grasp why grace is needed if the reason for grace in the first place is no longer in place. The one thing that determine why grace was needed is no longer applicable as some say. Hence, accountability to any spelled out standard is absent.

So with all this being said. Why is grace still needed if the Torah has been done away with.

The OT law has not been done away with, Jesus said not one Jot or tittle shall pass from the law,

Matthew 5:17-20 ( KJV )
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Christ came to fulfill the law, Paul said that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to hem who believe,


Romans 10:4 ( KJV )
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Paul says everyone that believes. The law still stands and if one chooses to no longer believe, they fall under condemnation from the law.

Galatians 5:1-4 ( KJV )
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians speaks of Christians who were being lead astray by some Jews claiming to be from the church in Jerusalem. These Jews were telling the Christians that they had to follow the law in addition to belief in Christ. In the above passage, the yoke of bondage is the law. Paul is telling them that if they return to the law the will be under condemnation from the law and Christ Will profit them nothing. Since we must endure to the end, we continue to be in need of Grace, since there is always the chance that we could be lead astray or choose to stray on our own.


manichunter---One reality I discovered was that Grace was always avaliable from the first sin of mankind? Grace is not a new revelation. David himself pleaded and thank God for His favor and grace.

A few points that go unresolved......
1. As an unbeliever, does he recieve grace because he was consider a transgressor against what, _____________?

God, the law, was instituted because of sin. it teaches us that we need a savior, we cannot meet God's standard.


manichunter---2.If a believer backslides, what determines that he has backslid. Is it because transgression has once again began to dominate him. If so by what standard is this measured by?

Backslidden is a subjective term, Technically whenever we are not following Christ, we are backslidden, however that is not to say every time we sin we are backslidden, The term is usually applied when one is in a pattern of sin. The only standard I know is your conscience and how God deals with it.


manichunter---3.What will determine a person guilty of recieving the eternal penalty of eternal damnation?

Unbelief

manichunter
Apr 26th 2009, 05:15 AM
Why return to the tutor, when you have the Master?

I am praying for you.

Why can't you leave me alone sir. I do not mean that in a belligerent way, but in a friendly manner as to avoid sin for either one of us. I do not want to be a stumbling block to you and I do not want to be called something that I am not.

I know you do not understand me or my comprehension, and I am okay with that. Unless you have walked in my shoes, you really do not know if what I believe is true, for you have not experienced the same things I have. I am by no means a sheep in regards to following anything preceived as error by my own volutions.

You say why return to the tutor, when we have the master. I say why not. Not for righteousness, justification, or good works should I return to the tutor, but for a more intimate knowledge and relationship with my master.

If I asked you several things about the master, I know you could not answer them, because of your ignorance of the torah. The shadows are our tutor for a reason just like a child needs kinder-garden.

Do you believe that believers need to be discipled and trained? If you say yes, then by what means did Paul and the apostles disciple new converts with? It had to be the tutor, because they had nothing else as Paul acknowledges about Timothy's training in the faith.

manichunter
Apr 26th 2009, 05:15 AM
... ... The Law.
This is an actual plea for understanding.

I will not respond or rebuttal in any fashion. I will ask for clarity.
... I hope this helps.[/quote]


You bet............ thanks greatly.

bagofseed
Apr 26th 2009, 05:54 AM
Why can't you leave me alone sir. I do not mean that in a belligerent way, but in a friendly manner as to avoid sin for either one of us. I do not want to be a stumbling block to you and I do not want to be called something that I am not.

I know you do not understand me or my comprehension, and I am okay with that. Unless you have walked in my shoes, you really do not know if what I believe is true, for you have not experienced the same things I have. I am by no means a sheep in regards to following anything preceived as error by my own volutions.

You say why return to the tutor, when we have the master. I say why not. Not for righteousness, justification, or good works should I return to the tutor, but for a more intimate knowledge and relationship with my master.

If I asked you several things about the master, I know you could not answer them, because of your ignorance of the torah. The shadows are our tutor for a reason just like a child needs kinder-garden.

Do you believe that believers need to be discipled and trained? If you say yes, then by what means did Paul and the apostles disciple new converts with? It had to be the tutor, because they had nothing else as Paul acknowledges about Timothy's training in the faith.

I Love You. .

manichunter
Apr 26th 2009, 06:05 AM
I Love You. .

I LOVE YOU TO MAN. :pp

You are still my spiritual and kingdom brother even if you do not claim me...... LOL :hug:

BroRog
Apr 26th 2009, 06:14 AM
Over time I am slowly coming to learn that "what I do" is not "what I am." What I do is act civilized. What I am is evil. If I was keeping the law, it would do nothing except prove the point.

I need grace, not for the wrong I do; but for the evil man that I am.

If you hear me, say Amen.

gophgetter
Apr 26th 2009, 06:27 AM
I have a question while we are on this subject? Did Jesus need grace from His Father when He lived His earthly life?

Goph

bagofseed
Apr 26th 2009, 06:29 AM
I LOVE YOU TO MAN. :pp

You are still my spiritual and kingdom brother even if you do not claim me...... LOL :hug:
Believe me I want too.

We still have those same two issues.

I believe to add to the gospel of Jesus through some additional revelation is to reject it.

I believe to add to the foundation of Christ Jesus is to declare Him inadequate.

bagofseed
Apr 26th 2009, 06:30 AM
I have a question while we are on this subject? Did Jesus need grace from His Father when He lived His earthly life?

Goph
Wow great question!

manichunter
Apr 26th 2009, 06:39 AM
Believe me I want too.

We still have those same two issues.

I believe to add to the gospel of Jesus through some additional revelation is to reject it.

I believe to add to the foundation of Christ Jesus is to declare Him inadequate.


I will not deviate to much. But I do not do either one of the these you claim.

The organized church has progressed in revelation since the 1st century, why is it wrong for people learn more about the work and workings of Christ today.

I have not added to the foundation as you believe.

I hear your concerns, but it is not needed. I am very much saved since 1991 by the redemptive works of Yeshau and nothing else. His blood sacrifice was all I need to be listed on the role of saints. What comes after this as far as our responsibility is where we disagree.

bagofseed
Apr 26th 2009, 07:20 AM
I will not deviate to much. But I do not do either one of the these you claim.

The organized church has progressed in revelation since the 1st century, why is it wrong for people learn more about the work and workings of Christ today.

I have not added to the foundation as you believe.

I hear your concerns, but it is not needed. I am very much saved since 1991 by the redemptive works of Yeshau and nothing else. His blood sacrifice was all I need to be listed on the role of saints. What comes after this as far as our responsibility is where we disagree.

OK. so where it your perceived disagreement.

manichunter
Apr 26th 2009, 07:27 AM
OK. so where it your perceived disagreement.

The dual process of sanctification being instantanious and progress. It is here where most people differ in doctrine. How do we mature, walk, and prosper in our common faith. Some say we are sanctified, some say we are being sanctified, some say both, and others say neither for we have already been sanctified before our creation. Some say we can act sanctified, be sanctified, and/or both. Then there is the means of sanctification that begins a different conversation.

The devil does well to keep this subject mess up. It the the most important issue that determines how we live and walk in Jesus.

bagofseed
Apr 26th 2009, 07:52 AM
The dual process of sanctification being instantanious and progress. It is here where most people differ in doctrine. How do we mature, walk, and prosper in our common faith. Some say we are sanctified, some say we are being sanctified, some say both, and others say neither for we have already been sanctified before our creation. Some say we can act sanctified, be sanctified, and/or both. Then there is the means of sanctification that begins a different conversation.

The devil does well to keep this subject mess up. It the the most important issue that determines how we live and walk in Jesus.
Thank God for His multifaceted truth.
The one who has bathed only needs his feet washed.

Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. - 1Pe 4:1-2

But the aim of our instruction is love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith - 1Ti 1:5

THOM
Apr 26th 2009, 09:34 AM
I have a question while we are on this subject? Did Jesus need grace from His Father when He lived His earthly life?

Goph

NO. That which came here, "full of grace", doesn't "need grace".

th1bill
Apr 26th 2009, 09:55 AM
The dual process of sanctification being instantanious and progress. It is here where most people differ in doctrine. How do we mature, walk, and prosper in our common faith. Some say we are sanctified, some say we are being sanctified, some say both, and others say neither for we have already been sanctified before our creation. Some say we can act sanctified, be sanctified, and/or both. Then there is the means of sanctification that begins a different conversation.

The devil does well to keep this subject mess up. It the the most important issue that determines how we live and walk in Jesus.
... Hunter, there are so many New Testament Christians in the mix today and I cannot understand to decide if they are Saved or not but with your quest for the Truth I feel good about about your spiritual condition. Do not let these that find themselves to be your superior ever lead you astray, they will, forever, try.

THOM
Apr 26th 2009, 10:02 AM
The dual process of sanctification being instantanious and progress. It is here where most people differ in doctrine. How do we mature, walk, and prosper in our common faith. Some say we are sanctified, some say we are being sanctified, some say both, and others say neither for we have already been sanctified before our creation. Some say we can act sanctified, be sanctified, and/or both. Then there is the means of sanctification that begins a different conversation.

The devil does well to keep this subject mess up. It the the most important issue that determines how we live and walk in Jesus.


... Hunter, there are so many New Testament Christians in the mix today and I cannot understand to decide if they are Saved or not but with your quest for the Truth I feel good about about your spiritual condition. Do not let these that find themselves to be your superior ever lead you astray, they will, forever, try.

What th1bill said: AMEN!!!:bounce: Thanks, and Bless you, th1bill!!!:pray:

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2009, 10:32 AM
I have a question while we are on this subject? Did Jesus need grace from His Father when He lived His earthly life?

Goph

Jesus was as His Father, full of grace and truth.

Jn 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And the Word was made flesh, And dwelt among us, (And we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace And truth.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
Apr 26th 2009, 09:02 PM
You say why return to the tutor, when we have the master. I say why not. Not for righteousness, justification, or good works should I return to the tutor, but for a more intimate knowledge and relationship with my master.

I know this wasn't originally posted to me. But I wanted to interact with you on it a bit. :hug:

This is one of those times when I believe we need to think and reason, saying to ourselves, what would Jesus do. Jesus is not Moses and vice versa. We have some idea of how it went with Moses and His giving of the law. But, we do not know that Moses way would be the same way that Jesus would approach the law.

So with any law, first, you have to decide who your master is. Then your master will tutor you in the law/disciplines/guidance.
Of course Jesus has left us with the Church guided by the Holy Spirit to help us. Incredibly though, there are many who do not believe that is enough.



If I asked you several things about the master, I know you could not answer them, because of your ignorance of the torah. The shadows are our tutor for a reason just like a child needs kinder-garden.

I'm not ignorant of "torah". But 'torah' is subject to Christ, not the other way around.


Do you believe that believers need to be discipled and trained?

I do.


If you say yes, then by what means did Paul and the apostles disciple new converts with?

With well trained in the faith merciful teachers of the church.


It had to be the tutor, because they had nothing else as Paul acknowledges about Timothy's training in the faith.

What are you saying here, Timothy came with full knowledge? Can't be, because you say, "Timothy's training in the faith". Timothy was trained in the faith, meaning with prayer and fasting which his mentor taught him.

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