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manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 02:32 PM
How have you so learned Christ to be your Lord?


Can you learn who Jesus is as Lord by logic and deductive reasoning? Or, did you learn who Jesus was to you by revelation?


How will you continue to learn the these that pertain to Jesus?


I personally learned of Jesus and accepted the divine invitation by revelation. Logic had failed me. I knew of Jesus being raised a Christian, but it never lead to a relationship until the Holy Spirit manifested the revelation of who Jesus is and asked me a question. The Spirit asked me, who do you say Jesus is? I responded my Lord. I will never forget that voice in my spirit and my silent answer.

I believe I can only continue to learn about the things of God by manner of revelation. Logic and deductive reasoning will always fall short. Not that they are bad, just not fully equipped to comprehend and explain the unseen reality. Hence, not everything I have come to know as truth now makes logical sense.

That is why I am baffled by all the doctrinal discourses concerning the things of God. Logical arguements are limited in the fact that they do not include the necessary capabilities of comprehending the hidden reality, cohesion of Scripture, and mysteries of the unseen things of God.

I add this thought to my earlier thread "Believer and Knowledge".


What say you?

-SEEKING-
Apr 24th 2009, 02:36 PM
I personally learned of Jesus and accepted the divine invitation by revelation.

Well aren't you a bundle of questions today. :D

What exactly do you mean by that statement? It sounds a bit mystical. Just curious. :hmm:

JonathanDWhitehead
Apr 24th 2009, 02:43 PM
How have you so learned Christ to be your Lord?


Can you learn who Jesus is as Lord by logic and deductive reasoning? Or, did you learn who Jesus was to you by revelation?


How will you continue to learn the these that pertain to Jesus?


I personally learned of Jesus and accepted the divine invitation by revelation. Logic had failed me. I knew of Jesus being raised a Christian, but it never lead to a relationship until the Holy Spirit manifested the revelation of who Jesus is and asked me a question. The Spirit asked me, who do you say Jesus is? I responded my Lord. I will never forget that voice in my spirit and my silent answer.

I believe I can only continue to learn about the things of God by manner of revelation. Logic and deductive reasoning will always fall short. Not that they are bad, just not fully equipped to comprehend and explain the unseen reality. Hence, not everything I have come to know as truth now makes logical sense.

That is why I am baffled by all the doctrinal discourses concerning the things of God. Logical arguements are limited in the fact that they do not include the necessary capabilities of comprehending the hidden reality, cohesion of Scripture, and mysteries of the unseen things of God.

I add this thought to my earlier thread "Believer and Knowledge".


What say you?


I agree, this sounds a bit mystical.

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 02:52 PM
Well aren't you a bundle of questions today. :D

What exactly do you mean by that statement? It sounds a bit mystical. Just curious. :hmm:


Always,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ????????????????? LOL

I wonder where I get that from............................. Adam where are you, Moses what is in your hand, Simon Peter who do you say I am


I was in a Bible Study in 1991. I was not saved. Then the teacher started in on the Scripture Jn 1:1. He went from English to Greek to Hebrew, and back to English. I just kept thinking what in the world. Me and my mother had been arguing and debating the same thing earlier in the week.

I accepted that Jesus was the word of God as a muslim (I was raised in a Christian household, but became Islamic in college). However, it was not until God Himself explained what I could not ever comprehend in my mind what the living word was, a person. Then I heard the question as the Bible Study continued. I immediately responded without hestitation.

I did not tell anyone immediately. I just simply began to act differently. I came to the Bible study as a racist and left a lover of all people in a spam of two hours. This within itself defied logic as well.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 24th 2009, 03:06 PM
What I find interesting in Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1 is that he doesn't pray "that the eyes of your brain may be enlightened that you might know" but "that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened that you might know." In the previous verse, he prays that they may be filled with the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ. Clearly, knowing Christ and revelation are closely related and come when 'the eyes of our heart are enlightened'.

No amount of logic will ever be able to lead a person to Christ or closer to Him. Only revelation can change a person, since revelation sparks faith and faith opens the door for God to move in and through us. This may sound mystical and in a sense it is - it goes beyond the scientifically verifiable and enters into the realm of the supernatural and unseen. Then again, faith has everything to do with the supernatural and unseen and has per definition a 'mystical' element.

One of my most common prayers for people is that 'the eyes of their heart may be enlightened that they may know...'

apothanein kerdos
Apr 24th 2009, 03:08 PM
Can you learn who Jesus is as Lord by logic and deductive reasoning? Or, did you learn who Jesus was to you by revelation?Both. If it's not logical, then it's not revealed. If it's not revealed, then it's not logical.

Due to our fallen states, however, we will not always see the logic in Christianity because, being fallen (especially if we lack the Holy Spirit) we are illogical.

If logic is somehow less than revelation, then we're in trouble. God wants us to reason with Him. He told us to love Him with our mind. Jesus is even called the Logic of God by John. Peter tells us to use logic to defend our faith. Solomon tells us to use logic to pursue wisdom.

If logic ultimately doesn't matter, then God is quite cruel revealing to us that we need logic.

The problem is everyone views logic as "human reasoning." It's not. We didn't invent it. Aristotle no more invented the law of non-contradiction than Christopher Columbus invented the land mass we call America.

Logic comes from God. It is within revelation. God is logical. All revelation from God is logical. It is all coherent. It all corresponds to reality because it comes from Ultimate Reality.

The problem isn't logic - the problem is (1) we're fallen and (2) we're finite. This means that certain things must be chalked up to mystery. Not because they are metaphysical mysteries (God knows the comprehensive truth concerning them), but because they are epistemological mysteries (in our fallibleness and finiteness we can't understand them).

But, if we weren't fallen, our logic would most certainly lead to God because all true logic comes from God. It would never lead to a comprehension of God (again, we're finite), but it would lead to knowing God. Since we are fallen, however, we are vastly illogical, leaving all non-Christian logical systems as being illogical.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 24th 2009, 03:26 PM
One of my most common prayers for people is that 'the eyes of their heart may be enlightened that they may know...'Americans equate "hearts" with "emotions." The Greeks equated "hearts" with the whole of being, including the mind. So your point doesn't really work when we put it in its proper context.

In fact, the passage you refer to in Ephesians 1 uses the Greek word dianoia, which means "intellectual understanding" or "mind." So, the sarcastic verse you posted:

"that the eyes of your brain may be enlightened that you might know"

Is vastly closer to what is meant by the Greek word than the latter one you used (if we go under modern connotations).

Of course your sarcastic rendering is still off because it assumes that the mind and brain are synonymous, that somehow the intellect and logic are found in the brain; they're not, they're found in the mind.

Regardless, Ephesians 1:18 is a GREAT example of the importance of logic through revelation and in revelation. Even the word "enlightenment" in the Greek refers to an intellectual, logical instruction from a teacher.

So the verse presented as a counter to logic actually speaks of how, through revelation, we are to become more logical. I love irony. :)

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 24th 2009, 04:07 PM
Americans equate "hearts" with "emotions." The Greeks equated "hearts" with the whole of being, including the mind. So your point doesn't really work when we put it in its proper context.

In fact, the passage you refer to in Ephesians 1 uses the Greek word dianoia, which means "intellectual understanding" or "mind." So, the sarcastic verse you posted:

"that the eyes of your brain may be enlightened that you might know"

Is vastly closer to what is meant by the Greek word than the latter one you used (if we go under modern connotations).

Of course your sarcastic rendering is still off because it assumes that the mind and brain are synonymous, that somehow the intellect and logic are found in the brain; they're not, they're found in the mind.

Regardless, Ephesians 1:18 is a GREAT example of the importance of logic through revelation and in revelation. Even the word "enlightenment" in the Greek refers to an intellectual, logical instruction from a teacher.

So the verse presented as a counter to logic actually speaks of how, through revelation, we are to become more logical. I love irony. :)
Dear friend, I was not referring to emotions nor am I familiar with the concept of equating heart with emotions. Both mind and emotions are equally (un)reliable since they are both part of the soul of man - but this is not the topic of the thread so I will not dwell on it.

With that having been said, I stand corrected with regards to Ephesians 1:18 - you are right as to its translation.


So the verse presented as a counter to logic actually speaks of how, through revelation, we are to become more logical. I love irony.

To clarify what I stated earlier, I just want to add that as far as I'm concerned, revelation is not always opposed to logic. As such, I was not meaning to imply that the issue is logic vs. revelation. I was merely trying to convey that logic in and of itself, cannot produce spiritual life. Only revelation can do that.

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 24th 2009, 04:11 PM
by REVELATION.. it all started Feb 3 1994....

the Only reason I exist today is beacause of HIM>.. and Him Only.. and everything I have today in my life.. from the place I abode to the clothes on my back and the job I have.. flows thru that Bloody Tree.. where He gave Himself for me and those He came for.... the Greatest of these Is Eternal Life.. which He has promised me because I believe and Trust on Him and what He accomplished on that Bloody Tree.. as a child would... with child like faith...

natural understanding and natural logic.. could not break thru this hard hearted unrepentant sinner until the Revelation of His Mercy and Goodness in my Life was REVEALED to me thru His Spirit... setting free from the satanic captivity I was held captive in.. led by condemnation and guilt.. His Blood set me free and washed all that away!.. Amen and Amen...

and those things I have learned from Him SINCE ....have been thru Revelation.. not the commandments and doctrines of men... in religion..
---------------------------------------------------------------------

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

-SEEKING-
Apr 24th 2009, 04:32 PM
I accepted that Jesus was the word of God as a muslim (I was raised in a Christian household, but became Islamic in college). However, it was not until God Himself explained what I could not ever comprehend in my mind what the living word was, a person. Then I heard the question as the Bible Study continued. I immediately responded without hestitation.

WOW! :eek: That was an amazing testimony. May the Lord continue to bless you.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 24th 2009, 05:37 PM
Dear friend, I was not referring to emotions nor am I familiar with the concept of equating heart with emotions. Both mind and emotions are equally (un)reliable since they are both part of the soul of man - but this is not the topic of the thread so I will not dwell on it.

With that having been said, I stand corrected with regards to Ephesians 1:18 - you are right as to its translation.



To clarify what I stated earlier, I just want to add that as far as I'm concerned, revelation is not always opposed to logic. As such, I was not meaning to imply that the issue is logic vs. revelation. I was merely trying to convey that logic in and of itself, cannot produce spiritual life. Only revelation can do that.


Well then, we both stand corrected. :)

I apologize for jumping to conclusions on what you meant.

I agree with you that logic alone, or sola ratio, does nothing for a spiritual life. Revelation from God is essential to this. I think, however, we should always understand there is reasoning behind the revelation (even if we don't understand it).

For example:

A 10 year-old who comes to Christ will know he is saved by way of internal illumination of the Holy Spirit.

William Lane Craig knows he is saved by way of internal illumination of the Holy Spirit.

The 10 year-old doesn't know the different apologetical arguments for proving Christianity. He doesn't know the reasoning behind our faith.

William Lane Craig knows the arguments and the reasoning, probably better than any Christian currently living.

Both are equally justified in their claims to salvation. Both are equally saved. Both equally know that they are saved. One happens to see the reasoning and can then give a justification of anyone who asks while the other cannot (yet).

apothanein kerdos
Apr 24th 2009, 05:38 PM
Just so everyone understands - there is no such thing as "natural logic." It doesn't exist. It can't be found anywhere. "Natural logic" means "Logic without God." Something cannot be logical without God. Anything attempting to be logical without God is, by default, illogical. Thus, natural logic doesn't exist.

Dani H
Apr 24th 2009, 05:44 PM
Revelation, definitely.

I know God has His own logic and if He can't hammer it into our thick skulls, then He just drops it in our spirits and then lets our minds catch up (which may take anywhere from 2 seconds to several years). There are just those times where He has to work around our frail and faulty thought processes which are often so very opposed to His thinking and tainted left and right, yet He doesn't want us deprived of truth. Glory to God, really. I quite love the way He does things. :)

And so in all your getting, get understanding.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 24th 2009, 05:57 PM
Revelation, definitely.

I know God has His own logic and if He can't hammer it into our thick skulls, then He just drops it in our spirits and then lets our minds catch up (which may take anywhere from 2 seconds to several years). There are just those times where He has to work around our frail and faulty thought processes who are often so very opposed to His thinking and tainted left and right, yet He doesn't want us deprived of truth. Glory to God, really. I quite love the way He does things. :)

And so in all your getting, get understanding.

This is what I've been trying to say...but failed in my attempt. :)

Dani H
Apr 24th 2009, 06:42 PM
This is what I've been trying to say...but failed in my attempt. :)

I fully understood what you were saying, so don't feel bad. :)

In my defense, I've had 3 iced coffees, so my brain is more awake than usual. :lol:

Edit:

I'm reminded of an encounter with God I had a number of years back. I was going through something and kept being left dumbfounded. So I took it up with God in prayer and our conversation went something like this:

Me: "You know, Lord, You're really not making any sense here."
God: "I make perfect sense. It is you who lack understanding."

Ever since that day, I've made it a point to actively pursue God's thoughts and opinion on any matter, because I really want to know where He really stands, versus just assuming that I know based on my own interpretation of something.

And so there you have it. :)

In all your getting, get understanding.

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 08:44 PM
Both. If it's not logical, then it's not revealed. If it's not revealed, then it's not logical.

Due to our fallen states, however, we will not always see the logic in Christianity because, being fallen (especially if we lack the Holy Spirit) we are illogical.

If logic is somehow less than revelation, then we're in trouble. God wants us to reason with Him. He told us to love Him with our mind. Jesus is even called the Logic of God by John. Peter tells us to use logic to defend our faith. Solomon tells us to use logic to pursue wisdom.

If logic ultimately doesn't matter, then God is quite cruel revealing to us that we need logic.

The problem is everyone views logic as "human reasoning." It's not. We didn't invent it. Aristotle no more invented the law of non-contradiction than Christopher Columbus invented the land mass we call America.

Logic comes from God. It is within revelation. God is logical. All revelation from God is logical. It is all coherent. It all corresponds to reality because it comes from Ultimate Reality.

The problem isn't logic - the problem is (1) we're fallen and (2) we're finite. This means that certain things must be chalked up to mystery. Not because they are metaphysical mysteries (God knows the comprehensive truth concerning them), but because they are epistemological mysteries (in our fallibleness and finiteness we can't understand them).

But, if we weren't fallen, our logic would most certainly lead to God because all true logic comes from God. It would never lead to a comprehension of God (again, we're finite), but it would lead to knowing God. Since we are fallen, however, we are vastly illogical, leaving all non-Christian logical systems as being illogical.

Let me see what I have learned from your post. There is logic to everything whether we understand or comprehend it or not is the issue. With mankind's limits, we can only go so far in our understanding of reality without the aid of divine revelation, illumination, and inspiration. We only have a piece of reality, but there are more mechanics at work that we cannot precieve or comprehend.

Hence, logic is more real than mankind can precieve. It means our science will never be perfect. It means we will never be able to calculate ever varible possible to existing equations. The natural laws we have discovered only apply as far as our comprehension of them and any possible encounter they have with the unknown.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 24th 2009, 08:47 PM
Let me see what I have learned from your post. There is logic to everything whether we understand or comprehend it or not is the issue. With mankind's limits, we can only go so far in our understanding of reality without the aid of divine revelation, illumination, and inspiration. We only have a piece of reality, but there are more mechanics at work that we cannot precieve or comprehend.

Hence, logic is more real than mankind can precieve. It means our science will never be perfect. It means we will never be able to calculate ever varible possible to existing equations. The natural laws we have discovered only apply as far as our comprehension of them and any possible encounter they have with the unknown.

That's exactly how I would look at it.

Is that what you were saying in your OP? If so, then I really need to go back and take a reading comprehension course - twice in one topic. :giveup:

manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 09:07 PM
That's exactly how I would look at it.

Is that what you were saying in your OP? If so, then I really need to go back and take a reading comprehension course - twice in one topic. :giveup:

Nah you got it right. I did not fully explain my thought, because that was as far as I could go with it. It had been baffling me for a while. You added more understanding to my though process so I could get a larger revelation.

No by all means you have done your best and blessed me.

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