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manichunter
Apr 24th 2009, 09:25 PM
I asked this question on a thread months ago, and then later saw that FF asked the same question. I have been teaching the sacrificial offering system in seminary school since 2003. So I have a little to add to FF question, but I wanted to post it separately because my point is different from my studies and experiences.

A person cannot follow the example of Paul that he demonstrated before people by application, if a person does not know what a meat offering or drink offering is.

Paul said be a living sacrifice and follow Christ as I follow Christ. He was not speaking in metaphoric, symbolic, or ambigious sense, but a literal and real manner. Paul was a teacher of Torah and knew in great detail what his words meant when he wrote the following:

Php 2:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+2:17&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.

And
2Ti 4:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+4:6&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

Which explained how he was a living sacrifice:
Ro 12:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+12:1&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
One has to understand the principles and application of the sacrificial system to know how to follow Paul's example. Not just the ritual, but how the living should accomplish the spiritual principles behind the physical emblems and illustrations.

Paul was taught the ritual by his kin, but taught the revelations behind the ritual by God.

How few say they desire to follow Paul's example, but lack the understanding behind both the ritual and living application of any of the sacrificial offerings.

We cannot even follow Jesus properly if these things are not understood, for we are commanded to deny ourselves, pick our cross (instrument of our personal sacrifice), and follow Jesus (in manner of conduct and principle).

What say you?

billy-brown 2
Apr 25th 2009, 03:34 AM
I asked this question on a thread months ago, and then later saw that FF asked the same question. I have been teaching the sacrificial offering system in seminary school since 2003. So I have a little to add to FF question, but I wanted to post it separately because my point is different from my studies and experiences.

A person cannot follow the example of Paul that he demonstrated before people by application, if a person does not know what a meat offering or drink offering is.

Paul said be a living sacrifice and follow Christ as I follow Christ. He was not speaking in metaphoric, symbolic, or ambigious sense, but a literal and real manner. Paul was a teacher of Torah and knew in great detail what his words meant when he wrote the following:

Php 2:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+2:17&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.

And
2Ti 4:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+4:6&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

Which explained how he was a living sacrifice:
Ro 12:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+12:1&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
One has to understand the principles and application of the sacrificial system to know how to follow Paul's example. Not just the ritual, but how the living should accomplish the spiritual principles behind the physical emblems and illustrations.

Paul was taught the ritual by his kin, but taught the revelations behind the ritual by God.

How few say they desire to follow Paul's example, but lack the understanding behind both the ritual and living application of any of the sacrificial offerings.

We cannot even follow Jesus properly if these things are not understood, for we are commanded to deny ourselves, pick our cross (instrument of our personal sacrifice), and follow Jesus (in manner of conduct and principle).

What say you?

Well, Paul had this testimony (in red below):

Phil 3: 1-11
1 (http://bible.cc/philippians/3-1.htm) Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.
2 (http://bible.cc/philippians/3-2.htm) Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3 (http://bible.cc/philippians/3-3.htm) for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
4 (http://bible.cc/philippians/3-4.htm) although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5 (http://bible.cc/philippians/3-5.htm) circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6 (http://bible.cc/philippians/3-6.htm) as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
7 (http://bible.cc/philippians/3-7.htm) But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 (http://bible.cc/philippians/3-8.htm) More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 (http://bible.cc/philippians/3-9.htm) and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 (http://bible.cc/philippians/3-10.htm) that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 (http://bible.cc/philippians/3-11.htm) in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

And this intimate knowledge of Torah affected his speech, prose, manner, and thought.

So, one would almost have to have this same socio/political/religious/cultural background to "follow Paul" completely.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 25th 2009, 04:58 AM
I will disagree, but with some caveats. A knowledge of the Sacrifices might bring a few things that can illuminate some meanings, but the idea of sacrifice was there for all, the Gentiles knew what a sacrifice was.
The central tenet for Paul was Jesus on the cross...Gal. 2:20 was his rally cry...Christ crucified and risen. His 'theology' of the event is elucidated in 2 Corinthians 5:14-21, Ephesians 2, and Romans 6 give a practical side of his exposition to the Gentiles. I am not saying not to know the sacrificial laws, I just think a new Christian can understand what Paul is getting at; I know I did as a new Christian.

crossnote
Apr 25th 2009, 07:25 AM
Nature teaches me (since I am a gentile dog) that shadows do not shed more light than the Light we receive from the Son, or should we revert back to the shadows (ordinances) to receive more light?

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Col 2:16-17)

manichunter
Apr 25th 2009, 02:24 PM
Nature teaches me (since I am a gentile dog) that shadows do not shed more light than the Light we receive from the Son, or should we revert back to the shadows (ordinances) to receive more light?

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Col 2:16-17)

So what does the shadow of the offering system teach you about Christ and your relationship with you. Each Shadow teaches us something about an aspect of His person and work of redemption for us.

So, instead of religious rhetoric, what is a meat offering, how was Jesus your meat offering, and how does he want you to be a meat offering towards other?
If you do not know what the shadows mean, how can you know Jesus.

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2009, 04:30 PM
So what does the shadow of the offering system teach you about Christ and your relationship with you. Each Shadow teaches us something about an aspect of His person and work of redemption for us.

So, instead of religious rhetoric, what is a meat offering, how was Jesus your meat offering, and how does he want you to be a meat offering towards other?
If you do not know what the shadows mean, how can you know Jesus.

How do we know Christ?

Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jn 8:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Jn 15:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Those that had the law did not know Christ according to the law but after his death.

Jn 8:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Jn 8:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

It is by the life and death of Christ that we know Him, according to the Gospel of Christ.

What happened to the teaching of the Holy Spirit to reming us of Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 25th 2009, 04:38 PM
How do we know Christ?

Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jn 8:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Firstfruits


This is where the difference takes place. We do not agree on what the Word of Jesus is. I say the Word is the entirety of Scripture. Jesus quoted from the OT to rebuke and chase off the devil in the wilderness to include words others isolate as Torah. I think he would teach his disciples the same manner of using His word for authority over death, sin, and the enemy.

However, this difference when not clearly defined leads to a hugh discrepency between our interpretation and application kind brother.

Dani H
Apr 25th 2009, 05:06 PM
Paul stared death in the face on a regular basis, and he knew that Jesus had already overcome it, and so he was at peace and willing for his faith in the Lord to cost him his life. This was during a time where Romans were putting people do death with regularity who didn't submit to their control, and where followers of Jesus were being put to death by Jewish leaders and Romans alike.

Without that understanding, and the acceptance of that, then no, we can no more follow Paul than we can follow Jesus Himself. Sacrifices aren't metaphorical. You tie something to an altar, the end result is its death. When we're "living sacrifices" then that means "Lord, my entire being belongs to you, and my life and death are in Your hands, to be used however You wish." When we pick up our cross and follow the Lord, the end result is our death, with the full understanding that we serve the God of the Resurrection. Not only death to our old ways of thinking and the ways of the world, but also the reality of being poured out for His sake, as that ultimate offering. If we can't accept that, and we don't understand that death is to be under God's control and something to be used for His own purposes, then we're missing something, if not the most crucial part of our faith. Because fear of death is the devil's domain and something he uses to torment people with and keep them bound in self-preservational thinking patterns, and there is nothing to be done about that but snatch that out of his hands, and handing it over to the Lord, in whose hands it belongs. If we can't trust Him with our death, how can we really say we trust Him with our life?

Which is why the OT can only be types and shadows, because no sacrifice was ever resurrected, and so that was a foreign concept, until Jesus, the firstfruit of the Resurrection, which changed everything.

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2009, 06:18 PM
This is where the difference takes place. We do not agree on what the Word of Jesus is. I say the Word is the entirety of Scripture. Jesus quoted from the OT to rebuke and chase off the devil in the wilderness to include words others isolate as Torah. I think he would teach his disciples the same manner of using His word for authority over death, sin, and the enemy.

However, this difference when not clearly defined leads to a hugh discrepency between our interpretation and application kind brother.

The gospel of christ is what Christ taught to His disciples and gave to Paul.

Mt 11:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Lk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Lk 4:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Acts 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Rom 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 16:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

The words of Jesus are what the Disciples have given to us, if we do not know the gospel then how will we know how to obtain salvation, how will we know the words of Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 25th 2009, 06:50 PM
The gospel of christ is what Christ taught to His disciples and gave to Paul.

Mt 11:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Lk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Lk 4:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Acts 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Rom 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 16:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

The words of Jesus are what the Disciples have given to us, if we do not know the gospel then how will we know how to obtain salvation, how will we know the words of Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Scriptural application- Paul was a drink offering, if you are to follow his example, how to can you be a drink offering? :hmm:

You do not know, right. An understanding of Torah could help you integrate this into your relationship with Yahweh and His people.

Otherwise, our living sacrifices are defiled and in vain, if we do things in willful ignorance. A living drink offering is a precise, unique, and very essential service of God's saints.

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2009, 09:35 PM
Scriptural application- Paul was a drink offering, if you are to follow his example, how to can you be a drink offering? :hmm:

You do not know, right. An understanding of Torah could help you integrate this into your relationship with Yahweh and His people.

Otherwise, our living sacrifices are defiled and in vain, if we do things in willful ignorance. A living drink offering is a precise, unique, and very essential service of God's saints.


Paul has already explained what he meant in the following scriptures;

2 Tim 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Eph 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

2 Cor 12:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.

Paul was willing to give his all for us that we also would not give up in the midst of tribulations.

Does that answer your question?

Just wondering, where is the Torah scripture that you are referring to?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BroRog
Apr 25th 2009, 10:38 PM
Paul said be a living sacrifice and follow Christ as I follow Christ. He was not speaking in metaphoric, symbolic, or ambigious sense, but a literal and real manner.

I believe the concept of a "living sacrifice" is a metaphor and not literal since literal sacrifices are put to death. If you mean a "living sacrifice" is an "actual" sacrifice, then I agree.


Paul was a teacher of Torah and knew in great detail what his words meant when he wrote the following:

Php 2:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+2:17&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.

And
2Ti 4:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+4:6&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

Literally speaking a drink offering is a liquid libation poured on the ground. Paul, of course, is not a liquid. And so, Paul is not "literally" a liquid poured on the ground. I agree that Paul has employed the conceptual vocabulary of his religion to make an analogy.


One has to understand the principles and application of the sacrificial system to know how to follow Paul's example. Not just the ritual, but how the living should accomplish the spiritual principles behind the physical emblems and illustrations.


I don't think Paul is asking the reader to take his analogy that far. That is, he doesn't expect his readers to be trained in the ritual aspects of the Jewish religion to get his point.

manichunter
Apr 26th 2009, 03:04 AM
I believe the concept of a "living sacrifice" is a metaphor and not literal since literal sacrifices are put to death. If you mean a "living sacrifice" is an "actual" sacrifice, then I agree.



Literally speaking a drink offering is a liquid libation poured on the ground. Paul, of course, is not a liquid. And so, Paul is not "literally" a liquid poured on the ground. I agree that Paul has employed the conceptual vocabulary of his religion to make an analogy.



I don't think Paul is asking the reader to take his analogy that far. That is, he doesn't expect his readers to be trained in the ritual aspects of the Jewish religion to get his point.

Paul did not speak without purpose in vanity. He was always teaching and admonishing without use of idle talk.

He was speaking from the knowledge of the systems and torah. He was speaking of spiritual principles that are mostly unknown today.

The drink offering has a meaning that Paul was conveying to an audience that knew the purpose of His analogy. What he was doing was exposing what is called a type or emblem of his life at that moment.

It is lack of understanding of the systems, emblems, and types in the OT that leaves people guessing, theorizing, and clueless at Scriptural meanings when they are used.

Paul was not talking about the ritual, but using the ritual to point out a principle and point.

That part about death does not hold wieght with Scripture. Jesus said in order to have life, one must die. Yes literal death to our carnality and to live now in the Spirit. Death in our prospective means the extinquishing of life in the reality. Jesus speaks about to different types of death that allude most.

crossnote
Apr 26th 2009, 05:00 AM
So what does the shadow of the offering system teach you about Christ and your relationship with you. Each Shadow teaches us something about an aspect of His person and work of redemption for us.

So, instead of religious rhetoric, what is a meat offering, how was Jesus your meat offering, and how does he want you to be a meat offering towards other?
If you do not know what the shadows mean, how can you know Jesus.

A shadow is dependent on Light and has the effect of dimming what it covers. When the light came the shadows fled.

manichunter
Apr 26th 2009, 05:28 AM
A shadow is dependent on Light and has the effect of dimming what it covers. When the light came the shadows fled.



What is the application of the drink offering for believers, when did it literally take place in the NT? How was Jesus our drink offering?

If you understand the LIGHT, then you would know the answers to these questions. Then you can begin to follow the example of Paul.

crossnote
Apr 27th 2009, 05:09 AM
What is the application of the drink offering for believers, when did it literally take place in the NT? How was Jesus our drink offering?

If you understand the LIGHT, then you would know the answers to these questions. Then you can begin to follow the example of Paul.

It speaks of God's joy over His Son's accomplishment at Calvary. My point is that this is nothing that I can't find with further clarity in the NT.
Reside in the shadows if you will.

manichunter
Apr 27th 2009, 05:42 AM
It speaks of God's joy over His Son's accomplishment at Calvary. My point is that this is nothing that I can't find with further clarity in the NT.
Reside in the shadows if you will.

why can't I appreciate it all............. as a complete vision to be able to gaze upon the whole picture. To understand the New by the Old and the Old by the New.

Like this............

I humbly submit brief answers to the thread without putting all the details:

1. How was Jesus our drink offering?
The drink offering was a part of the meal (meat/grain) offering that was offered at the same time. It is first mentioned in Gen with Jacob being the first recorded to commission one at an altar. It consist of a hin of wine and sometimes olive oil.

The meal offering symbolizes mankind's duty towards other men by first paying lifting it towards Yahweh for approval. Then it was given to the priest for consumption who stood as a symbolic mediator. It was a sweet offering. A sweet offering is an offering that does not have anything to do with sin, but God's pleasure with faithful and loving service. It symbolized a person physically representing what their heart meant towards God, much like how we do offerings today. No blood or meat could actually be used in the meat offering. (Side note: the word meat is properly translate meal)

Jesus the man, not His divine side, satisfied man's portion. He provided everything we would ever need in regards to ministry and provision. Then he asked us to mimic His literal act in principle.

How is the drink offering is connected to this. The wine symbolized blood. No literal blood could be used like it could be with the other sweet offerings such as the burnt or peace offerings. Mankind was never meant to consume blood, however, as a result of the fall mankind begin to consume blood which symbolized life. God had originally laid claim to all blood to include the animals. Hence mankind was to be satisfied by the fruit of the vine for his consumption.



2. When was the drink offering fulfilled by Jesus in the NC?
When His side was pierced and the blood spilled onto the ground. This was not just an observation, but a prophetic fulfillment of the offering system. Then it had to be sprinkled on the altar before the Father.
Jesus the man, not Jesus as God, satisfied the Father's request that mankind have their needs met as well.


3. When was the first prophetic shadow cast about the drink offering in reference to Jesus in the OC?
In Yahweh's exchange with Eve in regards to her seed (the Messiah of man) one day being bruise in the side. The same place she came from in regards to her being taken out of Adam's side. The side represents something that would take to much typing right now.


4.How did Paul follow the example of Jesus by being a drink offering?
Paul gave his total life and effort to meeting mankind's need of salvation and deliverance. He exhausted his life to the point of literal death to minister to others. He recalls the stories of his stoning and beatings. All symbolic of how the various grades of the meat offering are treated before they are placed upon the altar. In the first two grades the grains are bruised and beaten to a certain fine point before they acceptable to be placed on the altar.


5. In what way is the drink offering applicable to believers today?
A believer is required to immulate the manner of the meat offering, not by ritual, but love and commitment towards others. We are to give mankind's their portion for sastifaction in regards to ministry and deliverance.

The various grades reveal our level of understanding of our ministry, attitude, and commitment towards our brother. With the first being unrefined whole grains and ears being placed on the altar to the fine refined flour being placed on the altar to symbolized our service towards others. It first had to be directed towards God who then disseminated the blessings.

AND so much more..........

It takes me literally three months to teach this course properly so forgive me if I did not answer every question. I will answer follow ups..........


Not I do literally have an altar to commit sacrifices and would not do them if I had one. My point is not the ritual, but the works, attitude, and love it points to.

RabbiKnife
Apr 27th 2009, 05:34 PM
I believe that we read, way, way too much into Scripture. Sometimes, Saul going to the bathroom is just Saul going to the bathroom.

manichunter
Apr 27th 2009, 06:07 PM
I believe that we read, way, way too much into Scripture. Sometimes, Saul going to the bathroom is just Saul going to the bathroom.


I do not believe God has placed anything void in his word. He said all Scripture is good for all that stuff you know about already. I endeavor to teach from the books like Songs of Solomon.

JesusMySavior
Apr 27th 2009, 06:09 PM
God's Word says even though we as gentiles were without the law, we are a testimony even to the jews since God's law is written on our hearts and we do it even though not being taught in it.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we must know everything about hebrew traditions in order to serve God. We are not to be subject to laws and ordinances and are commanded by the apostle paul to stay away from such people and teachings.

This is a "different gospel", as Galatians 3 says, and I think I will bow out here.

RabbiKnife
Apr 27th 2009, 06:32 PM
I do not believe God has placed anything void in his word. He said all Scripture is good for all that stuff you know about already. I endeavor to teach from the books like Songs of Solomon.

No problem, but sometimes, Saul going to the bathroom is just Saul going to the bathroom.

manichunter
Apr 27th 2009, 08:47 PM
God's Word says even though we as gentiles were without the law, we are a testimony even to the jews since God's law is written on our hearts and we do it even though not being taught in it.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we must know everything about hebrew traditions in order to serve God. We are not to be subject to laws and ordinances and are commanded by the apostle paul to stay away from such people and teachings.

This is a "different gospel", as Galatians 3 says, and I think I will bow out here.

Can you be poured out like a drink offering like Paul? How?

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